/language-updates

Table of Contents




msg=45745 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:11:20 | u=1

Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Seabass

Alongside [iurl=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/a-response-from-paul-frommer!/]his letter[/iurl], Dr. Frommer sent a marked-up version for analysis. Also, on [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul[/url]

Red: new words
Blue: Pandora (literally: "Physical World of the Child of Eywa")

================
Ayeylanur oeyä sì eylanur lì'fyayä leNa'vi nìwotx:To all my friends and friends of the Na'vi language:
Oel ayngati kameie, ma oeeylan, ulte ayngaru seiyi irayo. Fpole' ayngal oer txanftxavang a 'upxaret stolawm oel. Lì'fyari leNa'vi oel 'efu ayngeyawnit. Ulte omum oel futa tìfyawìntxuri oeyä perey ayngawotx.I See you, my friends, and I thank you. I have heard the message you have sent me so passionately. I feel your love for the Na'vi language. And I know you are all waiting for my guidance.
Spivaw oeti rutxe, ma oeeylan: oe new nìtxan ayngaru fyawivìntxu. Slä nìawnomum, zene oe 'awsiteng kangkem sivi fohu a Uniltìrantokxit sì kifkeyit Eywa'evengä zamolunge awngar. Foru 'upxaret oel fpole', slä vay set ke pahängem kea tì'eyng. Nìaynga oe perey teng.Please believe me, my friends. I want very much to guide you. But as you know, I must work together with those who have brought us “Avatar” and the world of Pandora. I have sent them a message, but up to now no answer has arrived. Like you, I too am waiting.
'eyngit oel tolel a krr, ayngaru payeng, tsakrr paye'un sweya fya'ot a zamivunge oel ayngar aylì'ut horentisì lì'fyayä leNa'vi.When I receive an answer, I will let you know, and I will then decide the best way to bring you the words and rules of Na'vi.
Sìlpey oe, layu oeru ye'rìn sìltsana fmawn a tsun oe ayngaru tivìng.I hope I will soon have good news to give you.
Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan Markusì ta Ngalwey . . . 'Ivong Na'vi!In the words of our young friend Markus from Galway . . . Let Na'vi bloom!
Kìyevame ulte Eywa ngahu.Goodbye for now, and may Eywa be with you.
Ta 'eylan karyusì ayngeyä, Pawl.Your friend and teacher, Paul.


================
mipa aylì'u 'upxareyä ta Karyu Pawl / new vocabulary from the message from Karyu Paul

Nouns
'eylan friend (plurals: meylan(2), pxeylan(3), ayeylan(4+), eylan(lenited))
tìyawn love (= "love" (noun) Please note that *yawn is not a verb. It cannot be conjugated with infixes.)
Eywa'eveng Pandora
koren rule (plurals: mehoren(2), pxehoren(3), ayhoren(4+), horen(lenited))
tìkangkem work (the verb cannot be derived and conjugated directly on kang by removing )
tì'eyng answer (plurals: *mesì'eyng(2), *pxesì'eyng(3), *aysì'eyng(4+), *sì'eyng(lenited))

Verbs
stawm to hear
'efu to feel
spaw to believe
'eyng to answer
tel to receive
pe'un to decide
sìlpey to hope (optionally takes tsnì to mark the clause and requires -iv- in the subordinate verb(s))

Adjectives
swey best
'ewan young

Adverb
nìteng too/also
fìtxan so (meaning "exceedingly")

Particle
vay up to

Phrases
nìawnomum "as we know"
kifkey Eywa'evengä "the world of Pandora"
Aylì'ufa _______ "In the words of __________"
vay set "still/not yet" (with a negative verb)

================
List of Corrections completed before 11:59 PM Wednesday, 20 January 2010 ("'Ivong Na'vi Day")
================

(1) Conditional approval for lenited plurals (me-, pxe-, ay, 0) on tì'eng (answer) removed
(2) VITAL tì- added to tìyawn (love), which cannot be conjugated/infixed as a verb with tì- removed
(3) Various underlining (HTML typo) errors corrected for indicating which syllables should be stressed in speech (others could still be present)
(4) sìltsan a >>> siltsana (to correspond to the Flash at MaSempul.org which was corrected before publication)



msg=45769 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:21:26 | u=4

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

zombat

"and I jizzed, in my pants"



msg=45800 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:30:27 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

I forgot this adverb...

fìtxan so (meaning "exceedingly")

e.g.:

  Fpole’ ayngal oer fìtxan nìftxavang a ’upxaret stolawm oel.

  I have heard the message you have sent me so passionately.


_____________________________



msg=45819 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:35:37 | u=2084

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Maggo

Great Work and Irayo Pawl for this statement.



msg=45845 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:43:10 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=2623.msg45769#msg45769 date=1264018886]
"and I jizzed, in my pants"
[/quote]

BAHAHhahaha, Nice! +1 Karma to you sir!

Looks like Taronyu has some work cut out for him ;)



msg=45863 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:46:14 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

This is so great!  I can't wait to pour through it!

Too bad I have to go to stupid class.... grumbles about students



msg=45866 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:46:45 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg45845#msg45845 date=1264020190]
Looks like Taronyu has some work cut out for him ;)
[/quote]

We all do. :)



msg=45869 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:46:52 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote]horentisì lì'fyayä[/quote]

sì is an adposition?

-Keyl



msg=45883 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:50:48 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg45869#msg45869 date=1264020412]
[quote]horentisì lì'fyayä[/quote]

sì is an adposition?[/quote]

Strangely, it appears so.

Hmm...

A few things jump out at me.



msg=45890 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:52:01 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote]Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan Markusì ta Ngalwey[/quote]

awngeyä = our?  Why aw?

Also, Markusì? I'm thinking Markus-TOPIC MARKER -ì (rather than -ri), otherwise here "Aylì'ufa (our) (friend's)" the ownership of the words is unclear until there is a topic marked, namely, Markus.



msg=45894 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:53:39 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg45890#msg45890 date=1264020721]Also, Markusì? [/quote]

Syllables cannot end in -s in Na'vi.  Compare: Ìnglìsì.



msg=45899 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:55:28 | u=7

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Karyu amawey

I can't wait to update the Pocket Guide! Trial markers?! New verbs?! Affixes that need to be analyzed?! I'm in Heaven :))



msg=45900 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:55:39 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote]...ayngaru payeng...
...ayngar aylì'ut...[/quote]

Looks like it may depend on the next word starting with a consonant or vowel.

-Keyl



msg=45910 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:57:04 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Forget the new vocabulary, so many grammar questions are cleared up as well.

I mean I haven't had time to analyze everything, but already the first sentence tells us that we can have two datives together if they are both being the recipients.

However it also says that sì is NOT strictly an adposition...

Ayeylanur oe eylanur lì'fya leNa'vi nìwotx

Every single noun there has a case ending, in addition to sì being there.  That wouldn't work if you tried doing the same with an adposition like mì (Ignoring the nonsensicalness of the resulting sentence if it did work).



msg=45915 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:57:56 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote]...oer fìtxan...
...oeru ye'rìn...
[/quote]
But then we have this.

-Keyl



msg=45927 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 20:59:53 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg45894#msg45894 date=1264020819]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg45890#msg45890 date=1264020721]Also, Markusì? [/quote]

Syllables cannot end in -s in Na'vi.  Compare: Ìnglìsì.
[/quote]

I see - I often wondered about that final ì.

Still, why awngeyä? Is this "ayoe" shortened down to "aw" in some kind of crazy slang/shorthand?



msg=45929 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:01:00 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg45910#msg45910 date=1264021024]
Ayeylanur oe eylanur lì'fya leNa'vi nìwotx

Every single noun there has a case ending, in addition to sì being there.  That wouldn't work if you tried doing the same with an adposition like mì (Ignoring the nonsensicalness of the resulting sentence if it did work).
[/quote]

Why doesn't it work? I guess I'm not following. Couldn't sì be acting as an adposition in front of eylan?  

-Keyl



msg=45930 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:01:07 | u=132

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Taronyu

Trusting your judgement, Prrton.

Added all words to dictionary. Will upload in around a minute.



msg=45936 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:02:08 | u=781

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tanax

Wow this is great!! Txana irayo!
I have one question though.

Shouldn't yawn be a verb? In his letter he used tìyawnit, tì-yawn-it. We know since previously that tì- makes a verb into a noun. So yawn should be a verb then? Yawn = To love. Tíyawn = A love.



msg=45941 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:03:43 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

I don't know why I'm so excited about new words and info... I haven't even finished learning the "old" stuff yet. :D



msg=45945 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:04:27 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg45930#msg45930 date=1264021267]
Added all words to dictionary. Will upload in around a minute.
[/quote]
Aaaaarrrgggghhhh... ;)



msg=45951 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:06:10 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg45929#msg45929 date=1264021260]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg45910#msg45910 date=1264021024]
Ayeylanur oe eylanur lì'fya leNa'vi nìwotx

Every single noun there has a case ending, in addition to sì being there.  That wouldn't work if you tried doing the same with an adposition like mì (Ignoring the nonsensicalness of the resulting sentence if it did work).
[/quote]

Why doesn't it work? I guess I'm not following. Couldn't sì be acting as an adposition in front of eylan?  

-Keyl

[/quote]
Eylan already has the dative case though.  To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.



msg=45958 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:07:10 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Tanax link=topic=2623.msg45936#msg45936 date=1264021328]
Wow this is great!! Txana irayo!
I have one question though.

Shouldn't yawn be a verb? In his letter he used tìyawnit, tì-yawn-it. We know since previously that tì- makes a verb into a noun. So yawn should be a verb then? Yawn = To love. Tíyawn = A love.
[/quote]

tìyawn would = "love" an abstract noun, no article needed in English.

-Keyl



msg=45965 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:10:20 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg45958#msg45958 date=1264021630]
[quote author=Tanax link=topic=2623.msg45936#msg45936 date=1264021328]
Wow this is great!! Txana irayo!
I have one question though.

Shouldn't yawn be a verb? In his letter he used tìyawnit, tì-yawn-it. We know since previously that tì- makes a verb into a noun. So yawn should be a verb then? Yawn = To love. Tíyawn = A love.
[/quote]

tìyawn would = "love" an abstract noun, no article needed in English.

-Keyl
[/quote]

Right, but that still begs the question: Shouldn't "yawn" alone, without the abstract noun deriving affix tì-, be the VERB love?  As in: Rey|Live(verb) and Tìrey|Life(abstract noun).

Another question: Did Frommer have the list of new vocab set aside or was that Seabass' doing, extracting the words from the paragraph?



msg=45979 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:13:37 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg45951#msg45951 date=1264021570]
Eylan already has the dative case though.  To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
[/quote]

"oehuri" (EDIT or "hu oeri") wouldn't make sense? It does in Japanese 俺とは ore-to wa.  

-Keyl



msg=45991 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:18:57 | u=28

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wisnij

might act as a (to borrow a programmer's term) low-precedence conjunction when used standalone like that, but a high-precedence adposition when used as a suffix: 'eylan karyu ayngeyä "your friend and teacher".



msg=46000 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:21:36 | u=132

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Taronyu

Uploaded.

Derived *kangkem and *yawn, the verb. While assuming that tìyawn is the noun.



msg=46015 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:24:22 | u=453

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

bagget00

Irayo ma tsmukan



msg=46023 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:25:10 | u=781

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tanax

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg45958#msg45958 date=1264021630]
[quote author=Tanax link=topic=2623.msg45936#msg45936 date=1264021328]
Wow this is great!! Txana irayo!
I have one question though.

Shouldn't yawn be a verb? In his letter he used tìyawnit, tì-yawn-it. We know since previously that tì- makes a verb into a noun. So yawn should be a verb then? Yawn = To love. Tíyawn = A love.
[/quote]

tìyawn would = "love" an abstract noun, no article needed in English.

-Keyl
[/quote]

I know, I wrote "A love" just to make it clear that it's a noun. Tìyawn would be used when talking about "your love"(that you give me) or "my love"(that I give you) to name a few examples. Yawn would be used when talking about "I love Neytiri" or "You love Na'vi"(don't you?).

Question still remains though. Yawn should be a verb if I didn't misunderstand the whole thing.



msg=46025 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:25:25 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46000#msg46000 date=1264022496]
Uploaded.

Derived *kangkem and *yawn, the verb. While assuming that tìyawn is the noun.
[/quote]Irayo!  It looks like "kangkem" is probably a ... Hrm... It has that tì, but it is also showing up with a following si....

EDIT: Meh, never mind for now, I suppose.  I wonder if kangkem has a slightly different meaning than just "work," though, since one wonders why you would "do work" when you can "work."



msg=46037 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:28:13 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.



msg=46041 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:30:02 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46000#msg46000 date=1264022496]
Uploaded.

Derived *kangkem and *yawn, the verb. While assuming that tìyawn is the noun.
[/quote]

I would be good to know who it was that wrote the bottom portion of the message though.  Since they specifically state that these things cannot be done.

-Keyl



msg=46045 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:30:51 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

"nìftxavang" ??  Stress marks on "ftx"?  Typo, should be "nìftxavang"?

  - Eri



msg=46049 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:31:26 | u=132

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Taronyu

I'm waiting for that information, as well. My guess is that there was more to the message. I want them to say that.



msg=46060 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:35:30 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg45915#msg45915 date=1264021076]
[quote]...oer fìtxan...
...oeru ye'rìn...
[/quote]
But then we have this.
[/quote]

Right.  Apparently free variation.  ;)



msg=46062 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:35:52 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg45869#msg45869 date=1264020412]
[quote]horentisì lì'fyayä[/quote]

sì is an adposition?

-Keyl
[/quote]

Doesn't have to be (except in some of the advanced honorifics), but it's very convenient when you need one genitive noun to modify multiple other nouns or your have a locative particle or something in there too.

e.g.: Mìpxehllpxìltur tawsì akewong lehrrapa eana ioang swiräsì teya serängi.

I'm pretty sure that's viable.



msg=46071 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:39:23 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg46060#msg46060 date=1264023330]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg45915#msg45915 date=1264021076]
[quote]...oer fìtxan...
...oeru ye'rìn...
[/quote]
But then we have this.
[/quote]

Right.  Apparently free variation.  ;)
[/quote]

:)  It *almost* fits a pattern... stupid f.

-Keyl



msg=46078 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:41:17 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

"Spivaw" - Typo?  Should be "Spivaw" ?

  - Eri



msg=46081 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:42:06 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

Sorry if this is a bad time to ask but

'eylan friend (plurals: meylan(2), pxeylan(3), ayeylan(4+), eylan(lenited))

I'm not entirely sure where we got px(e) from (can't see it in the letter) but anyway :), does this mean that me- and px(e)- are confirmed to trigger lenition?



msg=46084 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:42:22 | u=3048

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Txepäsiyu

I bet the good Doctor is lurking in here right now watching the feeding frenzy.


Thanks Prof!



msg=46085 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:42:34 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46037#msg46037 date=1264022893]
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.
[/quote]

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?



msg=46089 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:43:18 | u=132

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Taronyu

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46085#msg46085 date=1264023754]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46037#msg46037 date=1264022893]
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.
[/quote]

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?
[/quote]

English translation loss or addition, I feel. Not perfective, by my bet.



msg=46096 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:45:02 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46089#msg46089 date=1264023798]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46085#msg46085 date=1264023754]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46037#msg46037 date=1264022893]
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.
[/quote]

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?
[/quote]

English translation loss or addition, I feel. Not perfective, by my bet.
[/quote]I think it's definitely a perfective.  After the hearing is over, he'll...



msg=46097 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:45:12 | u=781

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tanax

[quote author=Eight link=topic=2623.msg46081#msg46081 date=1264023726]
Sorry if this is a bad time to ask but

'eylan friend (plurals: meylan(2), pxeylan(3), ayeylan(4+), eylan(lenited))

I'm not entirely sure where we got px(e) from (can't see it in the letter) but anyway :), does this mean that me- and px(e)- are confirmed to trigger lenition?
[/quote]

Don't forget ay- :)



msg=46100 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:46:36 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

[quote author=Tanax link=topic=2623.msg46097#msg46097 date=1264023912]
Don't forget ay- :)
[/quote]
Hahah Aye1, but that one was known for a while I think. Whereas I don't remember reading anything saying that me- did (and I'd never seen px- before). :)

1 See what I've done there!?!? :D



msg=46105 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:48:00 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46096#msg46096 date=1264023902]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46089#msg46089 date=1264023798]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46085#msg46085 date=1264023754]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46037#msg46037 date=1264022893]
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.
[/quote]

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?
[/quote]

English translation loss or addition, I feel. Not perfective, by my bet.
[/quote]I think it's definitely a perfective.  After the hearing is over, he'll...
[/quote]Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.



msg=46109 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:50:00 | u=132

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Taronyu

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46105#msg46105 date=1264024080]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46096#msg46096 date=1264023902]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46089#msg46089 date=1264023798]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46085#msg46085 date=1264023754]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46037#msg46037 date=1264022893]
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.
[/quote]

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?
[/quote]

Woops. Meant to say not passive. It's perfective. Doy.

English translation loss or addition, I feel. Not perfective, by my bet.
[/quote]I think it's definitely a perfective.  After the hearing is over, he'll...
[/quote]Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.
[/quote]



msg=46110 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:50:07 | u=1648

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

trebor

amazing he jsut bypassed his contract to give us a teaser of  what is to come.

good work analyzing this  



msg=46114 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:50:30 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Eight link=topic=2623.msg46100#msg46100 date=1264023996]
[quote author=Tanax link=topic=2623.msg46097#msg46097 date=1264023912]
Don't forget ay- :)
[/quote]
Hahah Aye1, but that one was known for a while I think. Whereas I don't remember reading anything saying that me- did (and I'd never seen px- before). :)

1 See what I've done there!?!? :D
[/quote]

Me- has been confirmed fairly well to cause lenition for quite a while.  Eytukan says: "Mefot yìm" meaning "Bind them," with "them" being "me+po-ACC."



msg=46116 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:50:53 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=Eight link=topic=2623.msg46100#msg46100 date=1264023996]Hahah Aye1, but that one was known for a while I think. Whereas I don't remember reading anything saying that me- did (and I'd never seen px- before). [/quote]

me- has always been at war with Eastasia... wait, no, it has always been known to cause lenition.  The pxe- affix was known via email from Frommer to one of the Wikipedia editors, but was only made public in the last day or so.



msg=46120 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:52:00 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46114#msg46114 date=1264024230]
Me- has been confirmed fairly well to cause lenition for quite a while.  Eytukan says: "Mefot yìm" meaning "Bind them," with "them" being "me+po-ACC."
[/quote]
Ack. I knew I should have paid more attention to that pronoun chart!!!!

Cheers mate.[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg46116#msg46116 date=1264024253]
[quote author=Eight link=topic=2623.msg46100#msg46100 date=1264023996]Hahah Aye1, but that one was known for a while I think. Whereas I don't remember reading anything saying that me- did (and I'd never seen px- before). [/quote]

me- has always been at war with Eastasia... wait, no, it has always been known to cause lenition.  The pxe- affix was known via email from Frommer to one of the Wikipedia editors, but was only made public in the last day or so.
[/quote]
Oooh. Great stuff. Thank you fella, I was beginning to think I'd missed the memo there. Lol.



msg=46124 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:53:00 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46105#msg46105 date=1264024080]
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.
[/quote]

Right - but that is the perfective progressive form.  As in: "I have been learning" - Present progressive.



msg=46130 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 21:57:59 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46041#msg46041 date=1264023002]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46000#msg46000 date=1264022496]
Uploaded.

Derived *kangkem and *yawn, the verb. While assuming that tìyawn is the noun.
[/quote]

I would be good to know who it was that wrote the bottom portion of the message though.  Since they specifically state that these things cannot be done.

-Keyl
[/quote]

Tsaswirä lu oe.

Ayoengur vay set ke lu horen amuiä fpi lì'u kemä "kangkem" ta Karyu Pawl.  Rä'ä si sat! Nìmun pol horenìt fpi fìlì'u fpaye', slä ke vay set!!

lì'u 'uyä "yawn" tsun livu lì'u 'uyä nì'aw. KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe! Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u. Ayoengur vay set fra'u a ayoeng zene tslivam fte pivlltxe fìlì'ut nìlì'u lekem.




msg=46144 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:04:57 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46124#msg46124 date=1264024380]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46105#msg46105 date=1264024080]
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.
[/quote]

Right - but that is the perfective progressive form.  As in: "I have been learning" - Present progressive.
[/quote]I don't think so, it isn't progressive.  Progressive = imperfect, which doesn't make any sense if you combine it with a perfect.  That would be more like "I was heard that..."

What you're after is the past progressive (imperfect), which is <arm>, but isn't used here...



msg=46155 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:09:08 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

mefo yìm - clearly heard in the movie.  I think I remember some other source for me causing lenition as well.



msg=46170 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:13:17 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46144#msg46144 date=1264025097]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46124#msg46124 date=1264024380]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46105#msg46105 date=1264024080]
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.
[/quote]

Right - but that is the perfective progressive form.  As in: "I have been learning" - Present progressive.
[/quote]I don't think so, it isn't progressive.  Progressive = imperfect, which doesn't make any sense if you combine it with a perfect.  That would be more like "I was heard that..."

What you're after is the past progressive (imperfect), which is <arm>, but isn't used here...
[/quote]

No, progressive != imperfect!

"I have studied for 3 years." = Past perfect progressive
"By the time they arrive, we will have died of old age!" = Future Perfect
"I have been working on my car, and now my hands are dirty." = Present Perfect Progressive

It's a tough call, upon re-studying up on my tenses, it seems that "have heard" can be either one! If this were written in English it would more likely be interpreted as Present Perfect Progressive (since it indicates a "Recently finished activity with a present result").  But, since <ol> is known to be perfect tense (and not perfect progressive) the sentence CAN be Past Perfect tense (but then that begs the question: why Past?).

The only two possibilities for the tense of the English "have heard" are Present Perfect Progressive and Past Perfect.

Since present tense is unmarked in Na'vi, it would seem that this is the former, but what about Progressive? Unmarked also?
Since there is no marker for progressive you could argue that it is the latter, but then there is no mark for past either, so that wouldn't work at all.



msg=46175 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:15:17 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=2623.msg46130#msg46130 date=1264024679]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46041#msg46041 date=1264023002]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46000#msg46000 date=1264022496]
Uploaded.

Derived *kangkem and *yawn, the verb. While assuming that tìyawn is the noun.
[/quote]

I would be good to know who it was that wrote the bottom portion of the message though.  Since they specifically state that these things cannot be done.

-Keyl
[/quote]

Tsaswirä lu oe.

Ayoengur vay set ke lu horen amuiä fpi lì'u kemä "kangkem" ta Karyu Pawl.  Rä'ä si sat! Nìmun pol horenìt fpi fìlì'u fpaye', slä ke vay set!!

lì'u 'uyä "yawn" tsun livu lì'u 'uyä nì'aw. KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe! Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u. Ayoengur vay set fra'u a ayoeng zene tslivam fte pivlltxe fìlì'ut nìlì'u lekem.


[/quote]

If you are having trouble with Prrton's words here are some hints:

lì'u kemä = verb and lì'u 'uyä = noun

And some some give-aways:
[spoiler]
Prrton says the word list is from him, and that we do not have the correct rules for using the verb "kangkem" so don't use it this way. And that "yawn" is specifically only a thing, not an action says Dr. Frommer.[/spoiler]

-Keyl



msg=46181 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:16:51 | u=2249

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eanmenari Wìrngìayä

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg45863#msg45863 date=1264020374]
This is so great!  I can't wait to pour through it!

Too bad I have to go to stupid class.... grumbles about students
[/quote]

Hey, we students are grumbling about having to go to Chem lab when we would much rather pour through this.  Freakin' night class.....



msg=46186 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:18:42 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

My trouble with Prrton's post came from the (seemingly) improper lenition of koren to "horen" in the first sentence.

And also the fact that he calls himself a creature? :|

EDIT: Nevermind I caught why it was lenited, I feel dumb :|



msg=46192 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:20:19 | u=132

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Taronyu

horen can work. Just delete the ay+ or me+, as it's redundant. Or pxe+, for that matter.

Temporarily removed *kangkem and *tìyawn, pending further information. 



msg=46201 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:24:15 | u=2328

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

WannabeNavi

What date are we expecting the pocket guide to be updated on?



msg=46209 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:25:35 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46192#msg46192 date=1264026019]
horen can work. Just delete the ay+ or me+, as it's redundant. Or pxe+, for that matter.

Temporarily removed *kangkem and *tìyawn, pending further information. 
[/quote]
Er, as far as I'm aware only ay+ can be dropped, me+ and pxe+ still convey additional information that would be lost if you dropped them.



msg=46225 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:31:02 | u=132

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Taronyu

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46209#msg46209 date=1264026335]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46192#msg46192 date=1264026019]
horen can work. Just delete the ay+ or me+, as it's redundant. Or pxe+, for that matter.

Temporarily removed *kangkem and *tìyawn, pending further information. 
[/quote]
Er, as far as I'm aware only ay+ can be dropped, me+ and pxe+ still convey additional information that would be lost if you dropped them.
[/quote]

Ah, alright. My bad.



msg=46276 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:45:54 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg45863#msg45863 date=1264020374]
This is so great!  I can't wait to pour through it!

Too bad I have to go to stupid class.... grumbles about students
[/quote]


[EnglishGrammarNaziMode]
Hmm, methinks English is not the class you teach ;)

The word here, "pour", should be "pore."
[/EnglishGrammarNaziMode]

Sorry it has been bugging me since I read it!

Also:

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=2623.msg46130#msg46130 date=1264024679]
KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe! Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u.
[/quote]

Then why the flying heck did he use tì- if "yawm" is ALREADY a noun?  I understand that you say Frommer himself asserted that "yawm" can only be a noun, but what explanation is there for tìyawm then? ???



msg=46310 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:57:03 | u=1011

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Kiliyä

No, I think he means tìyawn is already a noun, and can't be broken down further.



msg=46316 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:58:37 | u=781

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tanax

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46175#msg46175 date=1264025717]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=2623.msg46130#msg46130 date=1264024679]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46041#msg46041 date=1264023002]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=2623.msg46000#msg46000 date=1264022496]
Uploaded.

Derived *kangkem and *yawn, the verb. While assuming that tìyawn is the noun.
[/quote]

I would be good to know who it was that wrote the bottom portion of the message though.  Since they specifically state that these things cannot be done.

-Keyl
[/quote]

Tsaswirä lu oe.

Ayoengur vay set ke lu horen amuiä fpi lì'u kemä "kangkem" ta Karyu Pawl.  Rä'ä si sat! Nìmun pol horenìt fpi fìlì'u fpaye', slä ke vay set!!

lì'u 'uyä "yawn" tsun livu lì'u 'uyä nì'aw. KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe! Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u. Ayoengur vay set fra'u a ayoeng zene tslivam fte pivlltxe fìlì'ut nìlì'u lekem.


[/quote]

If you are having trouble with Prrton's words here are some hints:

lì'u kemä = verb and lì'u 'uyä = noun

And some some give-aways:
[spoiler]
Prrton says the word list is from him, and that we do not have the correct rules for using the verb "kangkem" so don't use it this way. And that "yawn" is specifically only a thing, not an action says Dr. Frommer.[/spoiler]

-Keyl
[/quote]

So why did Frommer use tì- yawn if yawn is already a noun??



msg=46322 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 22:59:15 | u=1011

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Kiliyä

[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg46310#msg46310 date=1264028223]
No, I think he means tìyawn is already a noun, and can't be broken down further.
[/quote]



msg=46326 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:00:34 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

In purely phonetic matters — final vowel elision seems rampant with poor -e, and the good doctor is not delicate with his ejectives or the glottal stop.



msg=46341 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:04:04 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg46322#msg46322 date=1264028355]
No, I think he means tìyawn is already a noun, and can't be broken down further.
[/quote]

Well then why does he say:

[quote]
yawn love (NB: this ONLY the noun)
.
.
.
tìkangkem work (the verb cannot be derived and conjugated directly on kang by removing )
[/quote]

Hmm?

Why not put "tìyawn" followed by a similar parenthetical statement as the one accompanying "tìkangkem?"



msg=46350 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:07:34 | u=781

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tanax

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46341#msg46341 date=1264028644]
[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg46322#msg46322 date=1264028355]
No, I think he means tìyawn is already a noun, and can't be broken down further.
[/quote]

Well then why does he say:

[quote]
yawn love (NB: this ONLY the noun)
.
.
.
tìkangkem work (the verb cannot be derived and conjugated directly on kang by removing )
[/quote]

Hmm?

Why not put "tìyawn" followed by a similar parenthetical statement as the one accompanying "tìkangkem?"
[/quote]

This is exactly my point.



msg=46352 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:08:47 | u=1011

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Kiliyä

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46341#msg46341 date=1264028644]Hmm?

Why not put "tìyawn" followed by a similar parenthetical statement as the one accompanying "tìkangkem?"
[/quote]
Not a clue. Point taken.  Typo?



msg=46355 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:11:22 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

I wonder why he didn't just say love is a noun not a verb, if that's what he meant. Why "not an action"? I'm not sure I'd call love an action anyway... more of a state/feeling really... in SFL love would be termed a mental process.



msg=46357 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:12:20 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg46352#msg46352 date=1264028927]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46341#msg46341 date=1264028644]Hmm?

Why not put "tìyawn" followed by a similar parenthetical statement as the one accompanying "tìkangkem?"
[/quote]
Not a clue. Point taken.  Typo?
[/quote]

Possible, but unlikely.

I suppose we'll have to wait for another post from Prrton to clear up this matter (after we translate it into 'ìnglìsì, of course >:/ )



msg=46359 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:13:18 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Eight link=topic=2623.msg46355#msg46355 date=1264029082]
I wonder why he didn't just say love is a noun not a verb, if that's what he meant. Why "not an action"? I'm not sure I'd call love an action anyway... more of a state/feeling really... in SFL love would be termed a mental process.
[/quote]

He didn't say it wasn't an action, he said it wasn't "lì'u kemä" :: "word of action," meaning verb.



msg=46365 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:14:58 | u=1225

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

neotrekkerz

I didn't see this listed on SeaBass's post:

peng to let know, inform

Also, anyone know what sivi is?  I can't seem to find it.



msg=46367 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:16:05 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg46322#msg46322 date=1264028355]
[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg46310#msg46310 date=1264028223]
No, I think he means tìyawn is already a noun, and can't be broken down further.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Tsaswirä lu oe.
That creature be me.
It was me.

Ayoengur vay set ke lu horen amuiä fpi lì'u kemä "kangkem" ta Karyu Pawl.

we(inclus.)-<DAT> up-to now not be rules correct for word-action "kangkem" from teacher Paul.

As of now, we don't have the correct rules for the verb "kangkem" from Prof. Paul.

Rä'ä si sattsa'ut! Nìmun pol horenìt fpi fìlì'u fpaye', slä ke vay set!
!
Don't do nowthat<ACC>! Again he rules<ACC> for this-word will send, but (has) not up-to now!!

Don't use it yet.  He will again send rules for this word, but (has) not yet!!

lì'u 'uyä "yawn" tsun livu lì'u 'uyä nì'aw. KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe!

Word-thing "yawn" can be word-thing only. Not can verb be example-for "y-ol-awn" no no!

The noun "yawn" can only be a noun.  It can't be a verb for example: "y-ol-awn", no no!

Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u.

This is rule that Teach Paul come<PER>.

This is the rule that has come from Prof. Frommer.

Ayoengur vay set fra'u a ayoeng zene tslivam fte pivlltxe fìlì'ut nìlì'u lekem ke lu.

We-all<DAT> up-to now everything that we must understand for speak this word like-word-action not be.

We (do not) yet (have) everything that we need to understand to say this word as a verb.

-Keyl

Edited b/c things weren't quite right.

Tweaked slightly again by me/Prrton (with the exception of adding tì- to yawn (which it MUST have)) with brown.) Overall the gist of this has been correct all day, with the exception again of the vital tì- on tìyawn which was a HUGE typo/screw-up on my part).

Oefpi fraporu oe tsap'alute suyi nìmun tsnì 'awkrr oe slängu skxawng nìteng nìwotx! Please forgive me.
I humbly apologize for myself to everyone that I also become a total moron from time to time. Oeru txoa livuyu.




msg=46368 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:16:26 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46359#msg46359 date=1264029198]
He didn't say it wasn't an action, he said it wasn't "lì'u kemä" :: "word of action," meaning verb.
[/quote]
That's what I get for reading the spoiler instead of the Na'vi. :D



msg=46372 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:17:11 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=neotrekkerz link=topic=2623.msg46365#msg46365 date=1264029298]
I didn't see this listed on SeaBass's post:

peng to let know, inform

Also, anyone know what sivi is?  I can't seem to find it.
[/quote]We already had "peng" in our vocab, in both bare and compound words.  (ral+peng = interpret for example)

sivi is just "si" with the subjunctive.



msg=46373 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:18:15 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46367#msg46367 date=1264029365]
The noun "yawn" can only be a noun".  It can't be a verb for example: "y-ol-awn", no no!
[/quote]
Which still begs the question as to why he had to recode it into tiyawnit... why not yawnit?



msg=46375 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:19:28 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Because maybe the word IS "tìyawn" and it's not actually tì+yawn?



msg=46377 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:20:49 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46367#msg46367 date=1264029365]
[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg46322#msg46322 date=1264028355]
[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg46310#msg46310 date=1264028223]
No, I think he means tìyawn is already a noun, and can't be broken down further.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Tsaswirä lu oe.
That creature be me.
It was me.

Ayoengur vay set ke lu horen amuiä fpi lì'u kemä "kangkem" ta Karyu Pawl.

You-<TOP> up-to now not be rules correct for word-action "kangkem" from teacher Paul.

As of now, you don't have the correct rules for the verb "kangkem" from Prof. Paul.

Rä'ä si sat! Nìmun pol horenìt fpi fìlì'u fpaye', slä ke vay set!
!
Don't do now! Again he rules<ACC> for this-word sent, but not up-to now!!

Don't use it yet.  We will again send rules for this word, but not yet!!

lì'u 'uyä "yawn" tsun livu lì'u 'uyä nì'aw. KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe!

Word-thing "yawn" can be word-thing only. Not can verb be example-for "y-ol-awn" no no!

The noun "yawn" can only be a noun".  It can't be a verb for example: "y-ol-awn", no no!

Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u.

This is rule that Teach Paul come<PER>.

This is the rule that has come from Prof. Frommer.

Ayoengur vay set fra'u a ayoeng zene tslivam fte pivlltxe fìlì'ut nìlì'u lekem

You-all<TOP> up-to now everything that you must understand for speak this word like-word-action.

You already understand everything that you need to say this word as a verb.

-Keyl

[/quote]

I don't see how this is relevant to the quote you inserted?

I got all that from his post, and yes I've been coming up with ways to make use of "yawn" as a noun, but it still doesn't explain his choice of listing it as "yawn" and not "tìyawn," and if that was his intention, why is tì- added?

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46375#msg46375 date=1264029568]
Because maybe the word IS "tìyawn" and it's not actually tì+yawn?
[/quote]

Again:

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46341#msg46341 date=1264028644]
[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg46322#msg46322 date=1264028355]
No, I think he means tìyawn is already a noun, and can't be broken down further.
[/quote]

Well then why does he say:

[quote]
yawn love (NB: this ONLY the noun)
.
.
.
tìkangkem work (the verb cannot be derived and conjugated directly on kang by removing )
[/quote]

Hmm?

Why not put "tìyawn" followed by a similar parenthetical statement as the one accompanying "tìkangkem?"
[/quote]



msg=46380 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:22:06 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46375#msg46375 date=1264029568]
Because maybe the word IS "tìyawn" and it's not actually tì+yawn?
[/quote]
Maybe it is. Was it Prrton who posted the rules? Maybe "yawn" is just an oddity in the way he's explaining what Dr. Frommer said regarding tiyawn?



msg=46383 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:23:29 | u=1225

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

neotrekkerz

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46372#msg46372 date=1264029431]
[quote author=neotrekkerz link=topic=2623.msg46365#msg46365 date=1264029298]
I didn't see this listed on SeaBass's post:

peng to let know, inform

Also, anyone know what sivi is?  I can't seem to find it.
[/quote]We already had "peng" in our vocab, in both bare and compound words.  (ral+peng = interpret for example)

sivi is just "si" with the subjunctive.
[/quote]

That'll teach me to work off memory, thanks.



msg=46385 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:25:55 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46367#msg46367 date=1264029365]
Ayoengur vay set ke lu horen amuiä fpi lì'u kemä "kangkem" ta Karyu Pawl.
You-<TOP> up-to now not be rules correct for word-action "kangkem" from teacher Paul.

As of now, you don't have the correct rules for the verb "kangkem" from Prof. Paul.
[/quote]

Oh yeah - one little nitpick I forgot to mention :D

It would be We-DAT, not You-<TOP> for "Ayoengur."



msg=46392 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:33:28 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46385#msg46385 date=1264029955]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46367#msg46367 date=1264029365]
Ayoengur vay set ke lu horen amuiä fpi lì'u kemä "kangkem" ta Karyu Pawl.
You-<TOP> up-to now not be rules correct for word-action "kangkem" from teacher Paul.

As of now, you don't have the correct rules for the verb "kangkem" from Prof. Paul.
[/quote]

Oh yeah - one little nitpick I forgot to mention :D

It would be We-DAT, not You-<TOP> for "Ayoengur."
[/quote]

Yeah, I wrote that up quick as you can tell... :)

[quote]
I got all that from his post, and yes I've been coming up with ways to make use of "yawn" as a noun, but it still doesn't explain his choice of listing it as "yawn" and not "tìyawn," and if that was his intention, why is tì- added?[/quote]

I'm sure there is a reason, maybe the verb would be "yawn si" and the "si" can be deleted after it is abstracted by tì?  I don't know.

-Keyl



msg=46396 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:36:42 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46392#msg46392 date=1264030408]

I'm sure there is a reason, maybe the verb would is "yawn si" and the "si" can be deleted after it is abstracted by tì?  I don't know.

-Keyl

[/quote]

Make love is the verb? Oh boy....  :o

I was thinking of "I have love for you" (although this rarely means "I love you" in English) or "You are my love."



msg=46397 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:37:54 | u=7

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Karyu amawey

[quote author=WannabeNavi link=topic=2623.msg46201#msg46201 date=1264026255]
What date are we expecting the pocket guide to be updated on?
[/quote]

Tonight :D



msg=46403 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:40:15 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46396#msg46396 date=1264030602]
Make love is the verb? Oh boy....   :o
[/quote]

Or "love do" like Japanese 愛する ai suru

-Keyl



msg=46407 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:43:31 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46392#msg46392 date=1264030408]
I'm sure there is a reason, maybe the verb would be "yawn si" and the "si" can be deleted after it is abstracted by tì?  I don't know.
[/quote]
In things like "nari si", "kelku si" or "eltu si", the verb is actually just "si".



msg=46413 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-20 23:49:14 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46407#msg46407 date=1264031011]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46392#msg46392 date=1264030408]
I'm sure there is a reason, maybe the verb would be "yawn si" and the "si" can be deleted after it is abstracted by tì?  I don't know.
[/quote]
In things like "nari si", "kelku si" or "eltu si", the verb is actually just "si".
[/quote]

Yes, yes. But if someone asked me "what is the verb for live (dwell)" I would say: "kelku si".  Maybe that's not 100% accurate, but that is what I would say, they form a unit.  

-Keyl



msg=46439 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:08:17 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Your only reason for calling it a verb as a unit is that it is a single verb in English.  In Na'vi, it's two words taken together.

For "I lived" you say "Kelku sami" - the infix goes in "si" because that is the verb.  You wouldn't then say "tìkelku si" for "a dwelling", you would just say "Kelku" because that is the noun which "Kelku si" is based on.



msg=46440 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:08:42 | u=2307

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

LearntospeakNavi

Tìtìng ta Eywa a fì'u oeru tse'a lu.

This is a gift from Eywa!

Lit: Gift from Eywa that this-thing I see to be.



msg=46453 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:19:05 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46439#msg46439 date=1264032497]
Your only reason for calling it a verb as a unit is that it is a single verb in English.  In Na'vi, it's two words taken together.

For "I lived" you say "Kelku sami" - the infix goes in "si" because that is the verb.  You wouldn't then say "tìkelku si" for "a dwelling", you would just say "Kelku" because that is the noun which "Kelku si" is based on.
[/quote]

Well, and being fluent in a language that does the exact same thing -- Japanese -- where many verbs are formed with NOUN+する(suru).  Again the verb for love in Japanese is 愛(ai:noun)する(suru:do), I would call this a verb.  Just because the ending inflects or in Latin characters you write them as two words, doesn't really matter to me, personally.

Also, tì- makes things abstract nouns.  This is important I think.  tìnari si would not be "an eye", because that is a concrete object, it would be "sight" (if we did not already have tìkame or tìtse'a).  We've never seen this done though, so who knows if it's legal.  But it seems like if there are a lot of verbs built in the noun+do construction, we would run into it at some point.

Just my opinion. :)

-Keyl



msg=46463 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:23:31 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

Download the letter in mp3 format: [url=http://www.archive.org/download/FrommerSpokenNavi/FrommerLetter.mp3]http://www.archive.org/download/FrommerSpokenNavi/FrommerLetter.mp3[/url]

More audio stuff coming



msg=46465 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:26:47 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

Okay, so it has to be tìyawn.  Confirmed by Prrton (he's probably typing as I speak), and we DON'T know how to use it as a verb yet.  

-Keyl



msg=46478 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:35:53 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=Seabass link=topic=2623.msg45745#msg45745 date=1264018280]
mipa aylì'u 'upxareyä ta Karyu Pawl / new vocabulary from the message from Karyu Paul[/quote]

Another word is hiding in the heading!



msg=46485 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:38:43 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46453#msg46453 date=1264033145]
Well, and being fluent in a language that does the exact same thing -- Japanese -- where many verbs are formed with NOUN+する(suru).  Again the verb for love in Japanese is 愛(ai:noun)する(suru:do), I would call this a verb.  Just because the ending inflects or in Latin characters you write them as two words, doesn't really matter to me, personally.

Also, tì- makes things abstract nouns.  This is important I think.  tìnari si would not be "an eye", because that is a concrete object, it would be "sight" (if we did not already have tìkame or tìtse'a).  We've never seen this done though, so who knows if it's legal.  But it seems like if there are a lot of verbs built in the noun+do construction, we would run into it at some point.

Just my opinion. :)

-Keyl
[/quote]Be careful assuming that because Japanese has a similar construct that it is exactly the same.  I'm not just saying that it's a separate verb because I think it looks like it.  I'm saying because there's precedent for "si" being it's own verb (Kempe si nga - what are you doing, from Neytiri to Tsu'tey) and there's precedent for verbs in compound words still being considered seperate from the word as a whole (From the hunt song, yomtìyìng - will feed, or something like that where a first position infix goes into the last "syllable" of yomtìng because that's the acting verb).

Also, every word paired with "si" is itself a word of a different part of speech.



msg=46497 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:44:26 | u=606

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

txura utral

New words=LOTS of speculation  ;D



msg=46498 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:44:58 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46170#msg46170 date=1264025597]
No, progressive != imperfect!

"I have studied for 3 years." = Past perfect progressive
"By the time they arrive, we will have died of old age!" = Future Perfect
"I have been working on my car, and now my hands are dirty." = Present Perfect Progressive

It's a tough call, upon re-studying up on my tenses, it seems that "have heard" can be either one! If this were written in English it would more likely be interpreted as Present Perfect Progressive (since it indicates a "Recently finished activity with a present result").  But, since <ol> is known to be perfect tense (and not perfect progressive) the sentence CAN be Past Perfect tense (but then that begs the question: why Past?).

The only two possibilities for the tense of the English "have heard" are Present Perfect Progressive and Past Perfect.

Since present tense is unmarked in Na'vi, it would seem that this is the former, but what about Progressive? Unmarked also?
Since there is no marker for progressive you could argue that it is the latter, but then there is no mark for past either, so that wouldn't work at all.[/quote]Okay, whoa there... The problem here is that, in English classes, they don't use linguistic terminology, they use terms made up specifically for English.  This problem is confounded by the fact that tense and aspect are often pretty much inseparable in English.

Now, I'm not up on my English grammar terms (as they are not useful for anything except English, which I don't study), but here are your sentences again, with the linguistic terms for each:

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46170#msg46170 date=1264025597]
No, progressive != imperfect!

"I have studied for 3 years." = Past perfect
"By the time they arrive, we will have died of old age!" = Future Perfect (same)
"I have been working on my car, and now my hands are dirty." = Past imperfect

Regardless, the Na'vi is clearly perfective, and sure, we can even say it's present, but it isn't a progressive/imperfective.

We do, though, have a past perfect in the letter: z<am><ol>unge



msg=46501 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:47:00 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

I'll try to answer the questions I can that haven't been covered yet.
[quote]
awngeyä = our?  Why aw?
[/quote]
Both awnga and ayoeng would appear to be contractions of *ayoenga (pronounced "aywenga"). However, awnga tends to be shorter when inflected for case. WP now mentions that.

[quote]
Shouldn't yawn be a verb?
[/quote]
Per Frommer, the noun tìyawn derives from yawne "beloved". The e drops, as it often does, though we don't know why, or where. I imagine that oe ngaru tìyawn si (or worse, oel ngati tìyawn si) would mean something like, "hey baby, come over here and I'll love you." If it's idiomatic to say it at all, which is dubious. Prrton and I both suspect that "I love you" might be worded nga oeru yawne leiu "you are beloved to/of me".

[quote]
Derived *kangkem, the verb.
[/quote]
Kangkem would appear to be correct. Or at least I think so. Frommer says it's derived from kan [sic] "to aim" and kem.

[quote]
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.
[/quote]
We can have perfectives in the future, if the action is complete in the future. Tense is irrelevant for aspect. (Well, theoretically. As just noted above, they're inseparable in English.)



msg=46505 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:48:50 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46485#msg46485 date=1264034323]
Be careful assuming that because Japanese has a similar construct that it is exactly the same.  I'm not just saying that it's a separate verb because I think it looks like it.  I'm saying because there's precedent for "si" being it's own verb (Kempe si nga - what are you doing, from Neytiri to Tsu'tey) and there's precedent for verbs in compound words still being considered seperate from the word as a whole (From the hunt song, yomtìyìng - will feed, or something like that where a first position infix goes into the last "syllable" of yomtìng because that's the acting verb).

Also, every word paired with "si" is itself a word of a different part of speech.
[/quote]

I'm just calling the compound "noun+do" a verb, that doesn't mean I will inflect it in the wrong place.  I don't know, this all seems like arguing over semantics to me. Technically, you are right. Si or tìng is the verb in these constructions, but I would call "krrnekx" a verb just because it's easier that saying "krrnekx is a compound word that acts like the verb in a sentence but is actually made of out the word for 'take' and the noun for 'time'" if you have a fancy linguistic word for what these things are I will gladly use it. :)

Back to looking at this message, also thanks roger!

-Keyl



msg=46516 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:54:28 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46501#msg46501 date=1264034820]Per Frommer, the noun tìyawn derives from yawne "beloved". [/quote]

Per Frommer where?  Because that adds a, what — adjective? noun? — to our list.



msg=46525 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:58:00 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46505#msg46505 date=1264034930]
I'm just calling the compound "noun+do" a verb, that doesn't mean I will inflect it in the wrong place.  I don't know, this all seems like arguing over semantics to me. Technically, you are right. Si or tìng is the verb in these constructions, but I would call "krrnekx" a verb just because it's easier that saying "krrnekx is a compound word that acts like the verb in a sentence but is actually made of out the word for 'take' and the noun for 'time'" if you have a fancy linguistic word for what these things are I will gladly use it. :)

Back to looking at this message, also thanks roger!

-Keyl
[/quote]Don't look at me for fancy linguistic terms, IANAL.

Also don't take me as saying "This IS how it is!"  You could very well be right.  It doesn't seem right to me (tìngay si - is that tì (ngay si) or (tìngay) si?  One would be a noun the other a verb - I'd like to think that would be taken as a verb) but that could just be because I don't know the rules of Na'vi yet.

Going around declaring an assumption to be right can be dangerous, as can assuming that because two things appear similar on the surface that they are exactly the same.

(And re: roger, I echo wm in asking where that's from.)



msg=46529 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 00:59:40 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg46516#msg46516 date=1264035268]
[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46501#msg46501 date=1264034820]Per Frommer, the noun tìyawn derives from yawne "beloved". [/quote]

Per Frommer where?  Because that adds a, what — adjective? noun? — to our list.
[/quote]

In an email exchange this morning making sure that there were no typos in the message before it was posted:

[quote]
yawn is not actually the verb 'love.' Rather, yawne means 'beloved.' (For the noun, the e has dropped. Happens a lot.)
[/quote]

I would assume then that yawne is an adjective, ayawne, yawnea.

He also confirmed that like vowels contract, so that the dual/trial of 'eveng 'child', where the glottal stop is lenited, would be meveng, pxeveng. I suppose we can therefore say that the genitive in all pronouns is -eyä, and that after oe the two e's coalesce.



msg=46532 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 01:00:31 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46501#msg46501 date=1264034820]
[quote]
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.
[/quote]
We can have perfectives in the future, if the action is complete in the future. Tense is irrelevant for aspect. (Well, theoretically. As just noted above, they're inseparable in English.)
[/quote]Right, you can have future perfectives, but this is not what is in the letter.



msg=46569 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 01:15:43 | u=1003

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Skipper587

Not helping at all, but when is this going to hit the dictionary on-site?



msg=46575 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 01:17:27 | u=132

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Taronyu

[quote author=Sänumeyu link=topic=2623.msg46569#msg46569 date=1264036543]
Not helping at all, but when is this going to hit the dictionary on-site?
[/quote]

It's already hit mine. Check the signature.



msg=46584 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 01:21:59 | u=1003

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Skipper587

Irayo ma tsmukan. Will check, but the format I'm used to (AKA: Printed out) is the one off the on-site dictionary.



msg=46708 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 02:41:14 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg45965#msg45965 date=1264021820]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg45958#msg45958 date=1264021630]
[quote author=Tanax link=topic=2623.msg45936#msg45936 date=1264021328]
Wow this is great!! Txana irayo!
I have one question though.

Shouldn't yawn be a verb? In his letter he used tìyawnit, tì-yawn-it. We know since previously that tì- makes a verb into a noun. So yawn should be a verb then? Yawn = To love. Tíyawn = A love.
[/quote]

tìyawn would = "love" an abstract noun, no article needed in English.

-Keyl
[/quote]

Right, but that still begs the question: Shouldn't "yawn" alone, without the abstract noun deriving affix tì-, be the VERB love?  As in: Rey|Live(verb) and Tìrey|Life(abstract noun).

Another question: Did Frommer have the list of new vocab set aside or was that Seabass' doing, extracting the words from the paragraph?
[/quote]

I extracted the new vocabulary and asked him many questions about it.

First and foremost, YAWN is NOT A VERB that can be conjugated with infixes. I am hopeful that we might find out exactly HOW to say "I love you" soon. A cry for help has gone out. Fìkrr fì'lìfyari leNa'vi nì'it, nìmun, frapo zene pivey. (This time, again, everyone must wait for this bit of Na'vi.)



msg=46721 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 02:50:36 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=2623.msg46078#msg46078 date=1264023677]
"Spivaw" - Typo?  Should be "Spivaw" ?

  - Eri

[/quote]

Ma Eri,

This was a very good catch. Sìltsan leiu nìtxan! Nga tsun nìlaw eltu sivi nìlstan. The underline was too long. I've corrected it. The code/HTML for all that coloration and underlining is a nightmare. Praise be to Seabass for marking it up originally from a word processing master this morning.



msg=46723 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 02:51:57 | u=1003

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Skipper587

nìawnomum "as we know"

I think this is actually wrong, but I'm a skxawng, so I don't know. Based on what I know, I see it as devided as

awnomum "as we know"

because I know that omum is to know (ironically). So adding the nì would make it the adverb and that leaves awn. Any ideas on my theory?

------

Dang! Ninjaed twice!



msg=46727 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 02:55:31 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

Another typo, in the sentence Sìlpey oe, layu oeru ye'rìn sìltsan a fmawn a tsun oe ayngaru tivìng.  In the text with the flash of the sound+text, the attributive particle is attached to sìltsan, as expected for an attributive adjective.  Here it's written separately for some reason.



msg=46731 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 02:56:26 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=Tanax link=topic=2623.msg46097#msg46097 date=1264023912]
[quote author=Eight link=topic=2623.msg46081#msg46081 date=1264023726]
Sorry if this is a bad time to ask but

'eylan friend (plurals: meylan(2), pxeylan(3), ayeylan(4+), eylan(lenited))

I'm not entirely sure where we got px(e) from (can't see it in the letter) but anyway :), does this mean that me- and px(e)- are confirmed to trigger lenition?
[/quote]

Don't forget ay- :)
[/quote]

Srane

pa'li direhorse (mefa'li (2 direhorses), pxefa'li (3 direhorses), fa'li (4+ direhorses))

This insight comes from Karyu Pawl. The trial forms of the pronouns also code off of pxe-.



msg=46732 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 02:57:11 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=Sänumeyu link=topic=2623.msg46723#msg46723 date=1264042317]
nìawnomum "as we know"

I think this is actually wrong, but I'm a skxawng, so I don't know. Based on what I know, I see it as devided as

awnomum "as we know"

because I know that omum is to know (ironically). So adding the nì would make it the adverb and that leaves awn. Any ideas on my theory?

------

Dang! Ninjaed twice!
[/quote]Well the roots here are...

Nì + awnga + omum
(Awnga is a shortened form of Ayoeng)

Why that becomes specifically "awn" I couldn't say.



msg=46733 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 02:57:39 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=Sänumeyu link=topic=2623.msg46723#msg46723 date=1264042317]
nìawnomum "as we know"

I think this is actually wrong, [/quote]

Why would this be wrong?  It looks to me like a phrase that has been compressed into an idiomatic adverb.



msg=46741 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 03:01:51 | u=1003

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Skipper587

Sorry, I meant in pertaining to a typo. I think instead of awnomum it actually should be awnomum due to the reasons I just explained.



msg=46746 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 03:05:55 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46276#msg46276 date=1264027554]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg45863#msg45863 date=1264020374]
This is so great!  I can't wait to pour through it!

Too bad I have to go to stupid class.... grumbles about students
[/quote]


[EnglishGrammarNaziMode]
Hmm, methinks English is not the class you teach ;)

The word here, "pour", should be "pore."
[/EnglishGrammarNaziMode]

Sorry it has been bugging me since I read it!

Also:

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=2623.msg46130#msg46130 date=1264024679]
KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe! Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u.
[/quote]

Then why the flying heck did he use tì- if "yawm" is ALREADY a noun?  I understand that you say Frommer himself asserted that "yawm" can only be a noun, but what explanation is there for tìyawm then? ???
[/quote]

This is a very good insight/question. There were a couple of cases in which (I and maybe others (who were doing a LOT of rushing around this morning)) mistyped tìyawn. I think the initial tì- (which is ABSOLUTELY required) was left off in more than one place. My sincere apologies for any confusion or conflict that this might have caused. I am hopeful that we will have more context and instruction around the concepts of "love" in Na'vi soon, but like everyone on so many fronts. Oe perey...

PS: Whatever you do with tìyawn, do not try to drop the tì- and conjugate it with infixes. It is NOT a regular verb like za'u, kä, tìng, etc.



msg=46763 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 03:14:25 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=2623.msg46721#msg46721 date=1264042236]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=2623.msg46078#msg46078 date=1264023677]
"Spivaw" - Typo?  Should be "Spivaw" ?
[/quote]
This was a very good catch.
[/quote]

Happy to help!


[quote author=Prrton link=topic=2623.msg46721#msg46721 date=1264042236]
The code/HTML for all that coloration and underlining is a nightmare.
[/quote]

Yes, [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus&diff=prev&oldid=258]I agree[/url]. :)

Thanks for the confirmation; fixed on the wiki.

  - Eri



msg=46789 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 03:39:04 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

Also, I fixed nìftxavang on the wiki, as you did in the post.

  - Eri



msg=46804 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 03:45:46 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg46727#msg46727 date=1264042531]
Another typo, in the sentence Sìlpey oe, layu oeru ye'rìn sìltsan a fmawn a tsun oe ayngaru tivìng.  In the text with the flash of the sound+text, the attributive particle is attached to sìltsan, as expected for an attributive adjective.  Here it's written separately for some reason.
[/quote]

How do we know which is correctly copied from Frommer's original authoritative email/telegram/palimpsest, and which is the typo?  I assume that some as-yet-unclearly-specified combination of Seabass, Prrton, roger, and James Cameron worked together on this multi-media extravaganza; perhaps one of them can attest to the provenance and relative accuracy of the Flash and the Forum Post.

  - Eri



msg=46807 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 03:48:13 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46501#msg46501 date=1264034820]
I'll try to answer the questions I can that haven't been covered yet.

[quote]
Shouldn't yawn be a verb?
[/quote]
Per Frommer, the noun tìyawn derives from yawne "beloved". The e drops, as it often does, though we don't know why, or where. I imagine that oe ngaru tìyawn si (or worse, oel ngati tìyawn si) would mean something like, "hey baby, come over here and I'll love you." If it's idiomatic to say it at all, which is dubious. Prrton and I both suspect that "I love you" might be worded nga oeru yawne leiu "you are beloved to/of me".

[quote]
Derived *kangkem, the verb.
[/quote]
Kangkem would appear to be correct. Or at least I think so. Frommer says it's derived from kan [sic] "to aim" and kem.

[/quote]

I think it would be really nice if nga oeru yawne leiu ("you are belovèd to/of me") turns out to be one's basic "I love you" in Na'vi, but we still don't know for sure.

*Kangkem is probably the infinitive/imperative form of of "to work" but based on rumors/hints I suspect that it does NOT conjugate/infix on kan/kang. Perhaps this will become our first example of a class of "irregular verbs" or perhaps we already have that in omum. Just try infixing it starting on o and watch what happens. There is probably already a rule about this somewhere that I don't know. If so, someone please inform me.



msg=46810 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 03:50:03 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

Hi folks,

I went through and parsed/glossed Prof. Frommer's letter in linguistic style, if people want to take a look at it.  Please do let me know if you find typos/errors/etc., or any questions about the formatting.

Here be spoilers (and etc.)!

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5x_kVXReq_iNjU2YzllNWMtOTQ0Mi00ZWE0LTgxZDAtYzM4Njc4MGQ5OTQ5&hl=en

EDITed to update link.



msg=46813 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 03:52:20 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46498#msg46498 date=1264034698]
Okay, whoa there...
[/quote]

Ah.. It appears my source was incorrect, I concede defeat, oeru ngeyä txoa livu.

+1 Karma to you for calling me out on my zealous ignorance :(

(I swear this is the biggest ninjafest in the history of this forum)



msg=46816 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 03:54:42 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46813#msg46813 date=1264045940]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46498#msg46498 date=1264034698]
Okay, whoa there...
[/quote]

Ah.. It appears my source was incorrect, I concede defeat, oeru ngeyä txoa livu.

+1 Karma to you for calling me out on my zealous ignorance :(

(I swear this is the biggest ninjafest in the history of this forum)
[/quote]No problem :)

Do we have a way to say something along these lines??  ke'u ke lu?



msg=46830 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:11:08 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46810#msg46810 date=1264045803]
Hi folks,

I went through and parsed/glossed Prof. Frommer's letter in linguistic style, if people want to take a look at it.  Please do let me know if you find typos/errors/etc., or any questions about the formatting.

Here be spoilers (and etc.)!

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5x_kVXReq_iNWEwMTFjZGMtYzJjNS00NzEwLTlkYmMtYzk4Mzc5OGMxMWMw&hl=en
[/quote]

I was just about to do that myself so I'll run through it without looking at yours and compare as a double check.



msg=46835 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:14:16 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46816#msg46816 date=1264046082]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg46813#msg46813 date=1264045940]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46498#msg46498 date=1264034698]
Okay, whoa there...
[/quote]

Ah.. It appears my source was incorrect, I concede defeat, oeru ngeyä txoa livu.

+1 Karma to you for calling me out on my zealous ignorance :(

(I swear this is the biggest ninjafest in the history of this forum)
[/quote]No problem :)

Do we have a way to say something along these lines??  ke'u ke lu?
[/quote]

 Fìlìfyari "Oer ke zoplo" fu "Oer ke zoplo nìwotx!" oeru prrte' leiu nìtxan.
 I like this phrase "no offense to me" or "no offense to me at all!" a lot.

Ke'u ke lu is also great and grammatically correct to the best of my knowledge. Double negatives are attested in the film dialog.

I think Ke'u nang! (Oh, (it's) nothing!) could also work in this scenario or even for a very casual "You're welcome.", but these are NOT attested. I don't see what's wrong with their being used in this context of this community, though. Very little slang in any human language is ever governed by RULES per se.



msg=46838 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:15:19 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg46830#msg46830 date=1264047068]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46810#msg46810 date=1264045803]
Hi folks,

I went through and parsed/glossed Prof. Frommer's letter in linguistic style, if people want to take a look at it.  Please do let me know if you find typos/errors/etc., or any questions about the formatting.

Here be spoilers (and etc.)!

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5x_kVXReq_iNWEwMTFjZGMtYzJjNS00NzEwLTlkYmMtYzk4Mzc5OGMxMWMw&hl=en
[/quote]

I was just about to do that myself so I'll run through it without looking at yours and compare as a double check.
[/quote]Cool!  I proposed that to Keyl, too, but haven't heard back yet.  I did use some potentially non-standard analyses, and I'm sure there are lots of typos in mine, but any collaborative learning on this would be awesome!

Also, since this is the only real, official text we have, it's probably worth coming to a consensus at some point about what is in there, and putting it somewhere--on the wiki, maybe, as a reference...



msg=46846 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:19:20 | u=2239

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TorukMakto!

He may not publish anything yet due to FOX , but this letter was indeed handy for understanding the language more.

Irayo to all of you!



msg=46850 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:21:38 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=2623.msg46804#msg46804 date=1264045546]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg46727#msg46727 date=1264042531]
Another typo, in the sentence Sìlpey oe, layu oeru ye'rìn sìltsan a fmawn a tsun oe ayngaru tivìng.  In the text with the flash of the sound+text, the attributive particle is attached to sìltsan, as expected for an attributive adjective.  Here it's written separately for some reason.
[/quote]

How do we know which is correctly copied from Frommer's original authoritative email/telegram/palimpsest, and which is the typo?  I assume that some as-yet-unclearly-specified combination of Seabass, Prrton, roger, and James Cameron worked together on this multi-media extravaganza; perhaps one of them can attest to the provenance and relative accuracy of the Flash and the Forum Post.

 - Eri

[/quote]

Please consider the FLASH video/audio and the audio in [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/empisriri-fitrra-upxare-ta-karyu-pawl-mp3-from-todays-message-from-paul/msg46663/#msg46663]this post[/url] to be the CANON from Karyu Pawl.

If you notice anything that is otherwise typo:ed or "wonky" in any way when compared to those references as MASTERS, please point them out and I'll try to get them as correct as possible as soon as possible. Irayo nìtxan!





msg=46863 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:35:19 | u=1920

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

willphase

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46810#msg46810 date=1264045803]
Hi folks,

I went through and parsed/glossed Prof. Frommer's letter in linguistic style, if people want to take a look at it.  Please do let me know if you find typos/errors/etc., or any questions about the formatting.

Here be spoilers (and etc.)!

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5x_kVXReq_iNWEwMTFjZGMtYzJjNS00NzEwLTlkYmMtYzk4Mzc5OGMxMWMw&hl=en
[/quote]

This is amazing. Irayo for this!

Can you explain how Foru (in Foru 'upxaret oel fpole' - 'I have sent them a message') comes about?  Why isn't this ayforu?  does the dative override the plural prefix?  Why the trial form here? :confused:

Will



msg=46871 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:37:54 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

The plural prefix ay- can be omitted when the word undergoes lenition.  Therefore po plural is ayfo, dropping ay it just becomes fo.

Not sure where you're seeing the trial form in that sentence though?

(ay-)Foru 'upxaret oel fpole'
3-PL-DAT message-ACC 1-ERG send-PFV



msg=46882 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:50:57 | u=1920

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

willphase

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46871#msg46871 date=1264048674]
The plural prefix ay- can be omitted when the word undergoes lenition.  Therefore po plural is ayfo, dropping ay it just becomes fo.

Not sure where you're seeing the trial form in that sentence though?

(ay-)Foru 'upxaret oel fpole'
3-PL-DAT message-ACC 1-ERG send-PFV
[/quote]

Irayu for this.  I forgot the ay- could be omitted after lenition.  Looking at the Pocket Guide v3.4.1 - should the 3rd person plural be updated to always be 'fo' (rather than 'ayfo') or are there times were the ay- might appear?

And yes I was misreading the linguistic notation - 3 is 3rd person PL not trial plural :)

Will



msg=46889 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:59:20 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

Slightly updated/corrected version:

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5x_kVXReq_iNjU2YzllNWMtOTQ0Mi00ZWE0LTgxZDAtYzM4Njc4MGQ5OTQ5&hl=en



msg=46890 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 04:59:35 | u=1225

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

neotrekkerz

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46529#msg46529 date=1264035580]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg46516#msg46516 date=1264035268]
[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46501#msg46501 date=1264034820]Per Frommer, the noun tìyawn derives from yawne "beloved". [/quote]

Per Frommer where?  Because that adds a, what — adjective? noun? — to our list.
[/quote]

In an email exchange this morning making sure that there were no typos in the message before it was posted:

[quote]
yawn is not actually the verb 'love.' Rather, yawne means 'beloved.' (For the noun, the e has dropped. Happens a lot.)
[/quote]

I would assume then that yawne is an adjective, ayawne, yawnea.

He also confirmed that like vowels contract, so that the dual/trial of 'eveng 'child', where the glottal stop is lenited, would be meveng, pxeveng. I suppose we can therefore say that the genitive in all pronouns is -eyä, and that after oe the two e's coalesce.
[/quote]

This may perhaps answer one of my nagging questions regarding the attributive adposition(See the bold section above).  If I wanted to say "large home" it would be "apxa kelku" and not apxaa kelku.  Agree?



msg=46896 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:04:11 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=2623.msg46807#msg46807 date=1264045693]
*Kangkem is probably the infinitive/imperative form of of "to work" but based on rumors/hints I suspect that it does NOT conjugate/infix on kan/kang. Perhaps this will become our first example of a class of "irregular verbs" or perhaps we already have that in omum. Just try infixing it starting on o and watch what happens. There is probably already a rule about this somewhere that I don't know. If so, someone please inform me.
[/quote]
I think we have s.t. similar in iveyk (<iv>eyk), sjv of 'to lead'. Sjv of omum should just be ivomum, srak?



msg=46903 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:09:24 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=neotrekkerz link=topic=2623.msg46890#msg46890 date=1264049975]
This may perhaps answer one of my nagging questions regarding the attributive adposition(See the bold section above).  If I wanted to say "large home" it would be "apxa kelku" and not apxaa kelku.  Agree?
[/quote]
Unless apxa already has an attrib within it. Perhaps the root is pxa or apx. (I'm just guessing here.)
Also, it may be that stress shifts or s.t., the way it does w fem. tuté.



msg=46905 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:10:35 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

Just noticed that nìaynga is cited in red in the OP but is not discussed in the list of new words. Is this just because it's assumed to be obvious what it is? Same thing with p<ay>eng, also the same deal?



msg=46912 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:14:31 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=willphase link=topic=2623.msg46882#msg46882 date=1264049457]
Irayu for this.  I forgot the ay- could be omitted after lenition.  Looking at the Pocket Guide v3.4.1 - should the 3rd person plural be updated to always be 'fo' (rather than 'ayfo') or are there times were the ay- might appear?

And yes I was misreading the linguistic notation - 3 is 3rd person PL not trial plural :)

Will
[/quote]

It can be either on it's own.  If there is another source of lenition (For example mì fo) I would personally never drop the ay to avoid confusion.  (mì fo vs mì ayfo)  However I'm not sure if that's officially how the language handles the short plural ambiguity issue.

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg46905#msg46905 date=1264050635]
Just noticed that Nìaynga is cited in red in the OP but is not discussed in the list of new words.
[/quote]I don't think I'd consider that a new word...  We already have nìayoeng - like us.  So nìaynga would be the same thing, but like you.  Similarly, nìoe - like me.  Nìfo - like them.  Etc.

Oe ke nìfo lu.  I'm not like them.



msg=46921 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:17:23 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46912#msg46912 date=1264050871]It can be either on it's own.  If there is another source of lenition (For example mì fo) I would personally never drop the ay to avoid confusion.  (mì fo vs mì ayfo)  However I'm not sure if that's officially how the language handles the short plural ambiguity issue.[/quote]I was under the impression from the Wikipedia article that only the plural ay- can be dropped, and not the others.  Is this not the case?



msg=46928 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:23:35 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Not sure what you think I was saying to drop besides ay-?  That is correct, only the plural prefix ay- can be dropped.



msg=46939 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:32:54 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46810#msg46810 date=1264045803]
I went through and parsed/glossed Prof. Frommer's letter in linguistic style, if people want to take a look at it.  Please do let me know if you find typos/errors/etc., or any questions about the formatting.
[/quote]
Okay. Mostly pretty good, apart for a couple typos (forgetting the apostrophe in 'friend' a couple times, etc.). Here's what I see:

oe-eyä, nga-eyä — I think we can assume an allomorph -eyä for PNs
fì-txan — not "adj-great", but "this-great"
tì-yawne-it — if you're gonna break it up, the root is yawne
fì-'u-t-a — you can break it down further
fya-wintxu-ri — (ditto)
nì-awn-omum — ?? I don't see how we can be sure what the -awn- is. Yeah, prob'ly based on aynga, but it's hard to know for sure.
'aw-si-teng — parsed
tì-kan-kem — parsed (kan "to aim")
kifkey-it — acc.
za-m<ol>unge — from za-munge; there's no PST there
ke-a — just "not-adj". It's a normal adj, not a RC
tì-'eyng-it
za-m<iv>unge
lì'-'u-t — parsed
0-koren-ti=sì — Must be init /k/. Otherwise pl would be ayhoren only.
lì-fya-yä — parsed
lì'-'u=fa — fa "by means of"
k<ìy><iv>ame — ?? <iv> not confirmed. Could be, but we don't know for sure.



msg=46942 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:34:01 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg46928#msg46928 date=1264051415]
Not sure what you think I was saying to drop besides ay-?  That is correct, only the plural prefix ay- can be dropped.
[/quote]Fìtrr oeru ke lu eltu...  Oeri ke omum futa fperìl....



msg=46950 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:40:19 | u=2208

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Giawa

[quote author=Karyu Amawey link=topic=2623.msg46397#msg46397 date=1264030674]
[quote author=WannabeNavi link=topic=2623.msg46201#msg46201 date=1264026255]
What date are we expecting the pocket guide to be updated on?
[/quote]
Tonight :D
[/quote]

To all the people who work on these things (pocket guides, dictionaries, etc) karma++



msg=46956 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:46:16 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46939#msg46939 date=1264051974]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46810#msg46810 date=1264045803]
I went through and parsed/glossed Prof. Frommer's letter in linguistic style, if people want to take a look at it.  Please do let me know if you find typos/errors/etc., or any questions about the formatting.
[/quote]
Okay. Mostly pretty good, apart for a couple typos (forgetting the apostrophe in 'friend' a couple times, etc.). Here's what I see:

oe-eyä, nga-eyä — I think we can assume an allomorph -eyä for PNs
fì-txan — not "adj-great", but "this-great"
tì-yawne-it — if you're gonna break it up, the root is yawne
fì-'u-t-a — you can break it down further
fya-wintxu-ri — (ditto)
nì-awn-omum — ?? I don't see how we can be sure what the -awn- is. Yeah, prob'ly based on aynga, but it's hard to know for sure.
'aw-si-teng — parsed
tì-kan-kem — parsed (kan "to aim")
kifkey-it — acc.
za-m<ol>unge — from za-munge; there's no PST there
ke-a — just "not-adj". It's a normal adj, not a RC
tì-'eyng-it
za-m<iv>unge
lì'-'u-t — parsed
0-koren-ti=sì — Must be init /k/. Otherwise pl would be ayhoren only.
lì-fya-yä — parsed
lì'-'u=fa — fa "by means of"
k<ìy><iv>ame — ?? <iv> not confirmed. Could be, but we don't know for sure.

[/quote]

After finishing my version without peeking at yours and then comparing our two I agree with what you have and also agree with everything Roger said here.



msg=46969 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 05:53:48 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

Thanks for your comments!  My responses below.

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46939#msg46939 date=1264051974]
Okay. Mostly pretty good, apart for a couple typos (forgetting the apostrophe in 'friend' a couple times, etc.). Here's what I see: [/quote]I didn't leave it out; it undergoes lenition because of the preceding plural suffix.
[quote]oe-eyä, nga-eyä — I think we can assume an allomorph -eyä for PNs[/quote]I don't think we can assume this; see my post under "case allomorphs" (which I will be updating shortly).
[quote]fì-txan — not "adj-great", but "this-great"[/quote]I dunno about that...  What is "this"?  And where is it in the translation?  It looks to me like fìtxan is modifying the adverb, and is thus adjective-y.  (If this is true, it is interesting to note that we don't have an attributive when an adjective modifies an adverb.)
[quote]tì-yawne-it — if you're gonna break it up, the root is yawne[/quote]Well, I'm not sure it is...  Based on the discussion above, we have "yawne" for "beloved" and "tìyawn" for the noun "love," and thus a mystery /e/ that disappears.  I'm betting that the /e/ is actually forming an adjective somehow, so that "yawn" will turn out to be the verb "to love."  It is speculative, yes, but no more so than saying that that /e/ goes away but doesn't come back before the accusative -t.
[quote]fì-'u-t-a — you can break it down further[/quote]I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
[quote]nì-awn-omum — ?? I don't see how we can be sure what the -awn- is. Yeah, prob'ly based on aynga, but it's hard to know for sure.[/quote]Well, that's what it gets translated as, for one thing, and we have this change elsewhere.
[quote]kifkey-it — acc.[/quote]Yup, my bad.
[quote]za-m<ol>unge — from za-munge; there's no PST there[/quote]Hrm... Yeah, I wondered about this.  Where else do we see the /zamunge/ verb?
[quote]ke-a — just "not-adj". It's a normal adj, not a RC[/quote]Indeed.
[quote]0-koren-ti=sì — Must be init /k/. Otherwise pl would be ayhoren only.[/quote]Good catch, thanks.
[quote]k<ìy><iv>ame — ?? <iv> not confirmed. Could be, but we don't know for sure.[/quote]Agreed.  But, given the meaning, I'm going to stick with that analysis until we find some counter-example (or a word from on high :p).

A couple of your changes I didn't make; I don't necessarily want everything parsed down to their tiniest pieces, as that makes it hard to figure out what is going on (e.g., I'm going to leave "work" as a whole unit, at least for the moment).

Thanks again!  I'm going to post an updated version shortly, with line numbers...  If you're leaving comments on that version, please use the line numbers!  I really should have done this to start with... :p



msg=46979 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 06:00:01 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=2623.msg46835#msg46835 date=1264047256]
 Fìlìfyari "Oer ke zoplo" fu "Oer ke zoplo nìwotx!" oeru prrte' leiu nìtxan.
 I like this phrase "no offense to me" or "no offense to me at all!" a lot.

Ke'u ke lu is also great and grammatically correct to the best of my knowledge. Double negatives are attested in the film dialog.

I think Ke'u nang! (Oh, (it's) nothing!) could also work in this scenario or even for a very casual "You're welcome.", but these are NOT attested. I don't see what's wrong with their being used in this context of this community, though. Very little slang in any human language is ever governed by RULES per se.
[/quote]

We humans express our pleasantries in terms of exchanging favors.  Acknowledging the receipt of a favor: Thanks, I'm in your debt, I owe you one.  Graciously removing the obligation: No problem, it's nothing, think nothing of it.  The Na'vi don't seem to think in such terms.  We have (yet) no words for money, trade, exchange, swap, debt, owe, or even favor (although we do have promise and give).  Instead, the Na'vi live off the bounty of Eywa.  Eywa bestows her blessings upon the people, and the people are grateful.

So what pleasantry would someone say after having given a gift or favor and having been thanked?  What Would Eywa Do?  Eywa provides for the people, the people express their gratitude, and Eywa.. promises the people that she will provide for them again.  Not as an exchange for their worship, but as an acknowledgement that this is what Eywa does for the Na'vi, that [url=http://www.lingweenie.org/docs/proleg.pdf]the rhythm of the years[/url] goes on.

You could think of it as the equivalent of "Anytime" or "I'm always here for you", but I think I have a better gloss.  I offer two versions - one formal, one informal:



(Compare with Kìyevame (I) will see (you) again soon May (we) See (each other again) in the future. - "See you again.")

 - Eri


Edit: revised given [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Fused_-iv-_Infixes]what we now know about kìyevame[/url]
Edit: revised again because I decided Nìmun zìyeva'u sounds better than just Zìyeva'u even for the short form



msg=46983 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 06:06:29 | u=7

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Karyu amawey

Kaltxì frapo!  I have made the appropriate changes to the Pocket Guide, and I have included some minor aesthetic/format changes as well.  Ivong Na'vi!



msg=46984 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 06:06:55 | u=1225

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

neotrekkerz

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46903#msg46903 date=1264050564]
[quote author=neotrekkerz link=topic=2623.msg46890#msg46890 date=1264049975]
This may perhaps answer one of my nagging questions regarding the attributive adposition(See the bold section above).  If I wanted to say "large home" it would be "apxa kelku" and not apxaa kelku.  Agree?
[/quote]
Unless apxa already has an attrib within it. Perhaps the root is pxa or apx. (I'm just guessing here.)
Also, it may be that stress shifts or s.t., the way it does w fem. tuté.
[/quote]

I tend not to think the attr is within it, but thanks for the input.  The stress shift idea is interesting and something I hadn't considered before.



msg=46987 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 06:08:30 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=2623.msg46979#msg46979 date=1264053601]We humans express our pleasantries in terms of exchanging favors.  Acknowledging the receipt of a favor: Thanks, I'm in your debt, I owe you one.  Graciously removing the obligation: No problem, it's nothing, think nothing of it.[/quote]Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the boat!  You can't give a handful of English examples and say that this is how humans think; you can't even say that this is how English speakers thing, because using a set phrase like this is often completely disconnected from what it literally means.  I also disagree with your interpretation of things like "no problem;" it's not removing removing some sort of potential future obligations, it's indicating that it was nothing to me, but something to you.  It's actually a bit condescending.

But, I agree with the main point; who knows what the Na'vi do?  Only time will tell...



msg=46994 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 06:11:36 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

New up:

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5x_kVXReq_iNjU2YzllNWMtOTQ0Mi00ZWE0LTgxZDAtYzM4Njc4MGQ5OTQ5&hl=en



msg=47000 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 06:13:50 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46987#msg46987 date=1264054110]
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the boat!
[/quote]

Please consider my words as one man's thinking out loud, not as a claim to absolute and universal truth.

A poem, if you will, not a manifesto.

- Eri



msg=47010 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 06:25:37 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Ooh ooh, can I take it as an ultimatum? Please?



msg=47053 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 06:53:26 | u=73

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg46896#msg46896 date=1264050251]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=2623.msg46807#msg46807 date=1264045693]
*Kangkem is probably the infinitive/imperative form of of "to work" but based on rumors/hints I suspect that it does NOT conjugate/infix on kan/kang. Perhaps this will become our first example of a class of "irregular verbs" or perhaps we already have that in omum. Just try infixing it starting on o and watch what happens. There is probably already a rule about this somewhere that I don't know. If so, someone please inform me.
[/quote]
I think we have s.t. similar in iveyk (<iv>eyk), sjv of 'to lead'. Sjv of omum should just be ivomum, srak?
[/quote]

Kxawm tsun livu nìlaw. I've been sticking in after the OM and before the UM, though. It works there if you treat it like a single syllable "simple" verb like tsun (kind of). *omeruyum *omìyeium *omamusängum?? Of course this will turn out to be the error that Na'vi children have trouble taming between the ages of 2.5 4.5 ayzìsìt and I'll walk around sounding like a skxawng again. Oh well. Par for the course.



msg=47064 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 06:56:38 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

I've been taking the literal interpretation of "before the first vowel in the penultimate syllable" myself as well.  It does seem a bit odd saying ivomum or ayomum, but I don't see any ambiguity in the meaning by having the infix dangling off the front, even when the infix is the same as the plural prefix.



msg=47076 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 07:03:48 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg47064#msg47064 date=1264056998]
I've been taking the literal interpretation of "before the first vowel in the penultimate syllable" myself as well.  It does seem a bit odd saying ivomum or ayomum, but I don't see any ambiguity in the meaning by having the infix dangling off the front, even when the infix is the same as the plural prefix.
[/quote]Okay, I first have to say that, as a linguist, I *LOVE* that y'all are worried that the infixes becoming prefixes might be confusing!  Totally cracking me up, and reminding me how awesome Na'vi is.

As for the position of the infixes in vowel-initial roots: ... Huh, I thought Frommer's post on languagelog had something, but it isn't totally clear.  If we go by Wikipedia, it seems there isn't any reason you can't get the infixes here...  Hrm, hrm...



msg=47108 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 07:31:35 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg47076#msg47076 date=1264057428]
If we go by Wikipedia, it seems there isn't any reason you can't get the infixes here...  Hrm, hrm...
[/quote]
Keep in mind that Frommer hasn't had a chance to give much feedback on the WP article, and that little things like this could perhaps have passed him by unnoticed, though presumably if there were some howler in there he would have said something. So my suggestion is based solely on having iveyk in the film, and that could have been mistranscribed.



msg=47120 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 07:43:07 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg47108#msg47108 date=1264059095]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg47076#msg47076 date=1264057428]
If we go by Wikipedia, it seems there isn't any reason you can't get the infixes here...  Hrm, hrm...
[/quote]
Keep in mind that Frommer hasn't had a chance to give much feedback on the WP article, and that little things like this could perhaps have passed him by unnoticed, though presumably if there were some howler in there he would have said something. So my suggestion is based solely on having iveyk in the film, and that could have been mistranscribed.
[/quote]Hmm... Do we only have this from transcriptions?  If so, it might well be that that form is really 'iveyk, which wouldn't tell us much....



msg=47128 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 07:49:48 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg47120#msg47120 date=1264059787]
[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg47108#msg47108 date=1264059095]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg47076#msg47076 date=1264057428]
If we go by Wikipedia, it seems there isn't any reason you can't get the infixes here...  Hrm, hrm...
[/quote]
Keep in mind that Frommer hasn't had a chance to give much feedback on the WP article, and that little things like this could perhaps have passed him by unnoticed, though presumably if there were some howler in there he would have said something. So my suggestion is based solely on having iveyk in the film, and that could have been mistranscribed.
[/quote]Hmm... Do we only have this from transcriptions?  If so, it might well be that that form is really 'iveyk, which wouldn't tell us much....
[/quote]
Well, it would tell us that you need an epenthetic glottal stop to prevent an infix from becoming word-initial.



msg=47131 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 07:51:16 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg47128#msg47128 date=1264060188]
Well, it would tell us that you need an epenthetic glottal stop to prevent an infix from becoming word-initial.
[/quote]Err, no, I think it would tell us that we've the wrong root for eyk, which should be 'eyk if the glottal stop is there... Do we have this form written, though?



msg=47146 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 08:11:19 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46453#msg46453 date=1264033145]
Well, and being fluent in a language that does the exact same thing -- Japanese -- where many verbs are formed with NOUN+する(suru).  Again the verb for love in Japanese is 愛(ai:noun)する(suru:do), I would call this a verb.  Just because the ending inflects or in Latin characters you write them as two words, doesn't really matter to me, personally.
[/quote]
Actually, you're fluent in two languages that do (more or less) the same thing. English does it alot with verb + preposition.

I put the Neytiri poster up on my bedroom wall..

I put up with my friends taking the piss out of me for that.

They put me down, but their insults don't matter.

= phrasal verbs



msg=47184 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 08:37:13 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Eight link=topic=2623.msg47146#msg47146 date=1264061479]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg46453#msg46453 date=1264033145]
Well, and being fluent in a language that does the exact same thing -- Japanese -- where many verbs are formed with NOUN+する(suru).  Again the verb for love in Japanese is 愛(ai:noun)する(suru:do), I would call this a verb.  Just because the ending inflects or in Latin characters you write them as two words, doesn't really matter to me, personally.
[/quote]
Actually, you're fluent in two languages that do (more or less) the same thing. English does it alot with verb + preposition.

I put the Neytiri poster up on my bedroom wall..

I put up with my friends taking the piss out of me for that.

They put me down, but their insults don't matter.

= phrasal verbs
[/quote]

Phrasal verbs!  I hope that's a good word for it. :)  Actually I was just talking about how Japanese also uses the verb "to do" to make phrasal verbs from nouns.  I hadn't really though of verb + preposition being more or less the same thing.  Now that I have a more specific word for it, maybe I can get out of trouble with the grammer police.  ;D

-Keyl



msg=47187 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 08:38:08 | u=2211

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Txaklan

This is fantastic! New words and new grammar! What could we want more? ;D



msg=47202 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 08:42:31 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2623.msg47184#msg47184 date=1264063033]
I hadn't really though of verb + preposition being more or less the same thing.  Now that I have a more specific word for it, maybe I can get out of trouble with the grammer police.   ;D
[/quote]
In all my years of speaking English, I'd never even thought about them until a course I was on mentioned the subject. They're something you use and never really consider in depth.



msg=47225 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 08:51:01 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

The English construct of verb+preposition would be a phrasal verb for sure, but wouldn't the Na'vi (And Japanese) construct be considered a "compound verb" instead?  (Phrasal verb = verb + preposition or verb + adverb, compound verb = verb + noun or verb + verb)

Both "si" and "tìng" get many uses in forming compound verbs in Na'vi.  Most are noun on verb, but we get some hot verb on verb action as well with yomtìng.



msg=47235 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 09:00:13 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg47225#msg47225 date=1264063861]
Most are noun on verb, but we get some hot verb on verb action as well with yomtìng.
[/quote]
Okay, that deserves some karma!



msg=47247 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 09:08:47 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg47225#msg47225 date=1264063861]
The English construct of verb+preposition would be a phrasal verb for sure, but wouldn't the Na'vi (And Japanese) construct be considered a "compound verb" instead?  (Phrasal verb = verb + preposition or verb + adverb, compound verb = verb + noun or verb + verb)

Both "si" and "tìng" get many uses in forming compound verbs in Na'vi.  Most are noun on verb, but we get some hot verb on verb action as well with yomtìng.
[/quote]Heheh...  The verb give often ends up grammaticalizing to do this type of thing (benefactive), so we might find this happening in other places, which would be cool!  I'm not sure how we want to class the noun + si things, tho...  Hopefully things will become clearer when we have more verbs



msg=47248 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 09:09:10 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg47225#msg47225 date=1264063861]
...but we get some hot verb on verb action as well with yomtìng.
[/quote]

:D  Second best thing I heard all day (after Dr. Frommer's message)



msg=47255 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 09:18:26 | u=1244

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Eight

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg47225#msg47225 date=1264063861]
The English construct of verb+preposition would be a phrasal verb for sure, but wouldn't the Na'vi (And Japanese) construct be considered a "compound verb" instead?
[/quote]
Maybe yeah.

I mentioned the phrasal verbs as one way in English that a verb is joined to another part of speech to form one new construct. i.e. they're not two words interacting, they're essentially one verb with a space in the middle.



msg=47339 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 10:12:28 | u=2211

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Txaklan

I think a in sentences like tì'eyngit oel tolel a krr, is used in much the same way as de in chinese.

The same sentence in chinese (in pinyin without tones):

Wo shoudao huida de shihou...

Where
wo = I = oel
shoudao = receive = tolel
huida = answer = tì'eyngit
de = relative particle connecting two sentences, indicating there's a relation between them = a
shihou = time = krr

Except word order and cases, the two sentences are equivalent.

Literally = The time (that) I receive the answer.



msg=47374 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 10:24:33 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Has anyone noticed that the grammatic role "tsakrr" fills isn't that of a noun, like tsa+othernoun typically (Presumably) would?

We see this in Avatar too, "Oel pot spìmìyang, tsakrr za'a aungia ta Eywa" - I was about to kill him, then(that-time) come sign from Eywa

Tì'eyngit oel tolel a krr, ayngaru payeng, tsakrr paye'un sweya fya'ot a zamivunge oel ayngar aylì'ut horentisì lì'fyayä leNa'vi.
I get answer which time, will tell to you, then(that-time) decide best way that I give to you words and rules of Na'vi language



msg=47408 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 10:46:41 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

Yes, I asked Frommer about it, and he said that he didn't have time to go into it right now, but that it wasn't an error.



msg=47410 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 10:47:39 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

I didn't think it was an error...  As I pointed out the same form is used in Avatar.  However IANAL so I don't know the correct linguistic term for what the word is doing there.



msg=47483 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 11:47:42 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

I was just trying to reassure that he's aware of this and it's intentional. It would seem that it's being used as an adverb. Consider English "today", which can be both a noun (today is a beautiful day) and an adverb (I think I'll go today). Maybe he had s.t. like this in mind. Or maybe it's ellipsis of some sort -- won't really know until he has more time.



msg=47746 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 14:54:48 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46969#msg46969 date=1264053228]
[quote]fì-txan — not "adj-great", but "this-great"[/quote]I dunno about that...  What is "this"?  And where is it in the translation?  It looks to me like fìtxan is modifying the adverb, and is thus adjective-y.  (If this is true, it is interesting to note that we don't have an attributive when an adjective modifies an adverb.)
[/quote]

I'm not sure if fì- would work as "this" in this case, but I think he's just pointing that out as we have "txan" (great) and typically any time we see fì- stuck onto a word it means "this (word)."
(i.e.: fì-tseng::this.place | fì-ay-vrrtep[fayvrrtep]::this.PL.demon[these.demons] | fì'u::this.thing)

Also, adverbs can only be modified by other adverbs, adjectives only modify nouns or pronouns. (This is one English grammar rule I'm certain of. :P )

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46969#msg46969 date=1264053228]
[quote]tì-yawne-it — if you're gonna break it up, the root is yawne[/quote]Well, I'm not sure it is...  Based on the discussion above, we have "yawne" for "beloved" and "tìyawn" for the noun "love," and thus a mystery /e/ that disappears.  I'm betting that the /e/ is actually forming an adjective somehow, so that "yawn" will turn out to be the verb "to love."  It is speculative, yes, but no more so than saying that that /e/ goes away but doesn't come back before the accusative -t.
[/quote]

Yeah I don't really know what the deal is with this word either, but I'm afraid that "yawn" being "to love" has been strictly debunked by Frommer himself (according to roger and Prrton).

What I think is the case here is that yawne means beloved and adding tì- onto it simply turns it into the abstract noun associated with "beloved," which would be "love."

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg46969#msg46969 date=1264053228]
[quote]fì-'u-t-a — you can break it down further[/quote]I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
[/quote]

He's talking about the word "futa" which I THINK breaks down into this.thing.which or something to that effect. (Not sure what the -t- does in it.)



msg=47828 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 15:40:33 | u=25

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tawtute

I was thinking about kìyevame and have some suggestions (sorry if someone already has it from other, more official resourse)
This kìyevame breaks up into kame, ìy, and ev. We know that the whole meaning is “see again soon”.
We know that ìy is recent future infix, so kìyame is “see soon”, but what is ev? If think that is the infix for repeating, so kevame would mean “re-see”.
What everyone thinks about that?

P.S. sorry for bad eenglish.



msg=47852 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 16:00:54 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg47746#msg47746 date=1264085688]
He's talking about the word "futa" which I THINK breaks down into this.thing.which or something to that effect. (Not sure what the -t- does in it.)
[/quote]

Yeah, fì'u-t-a seems like what it breaks down too but why do you drop the ì' and I also don't see why it needs an accusative infix on it.



msg=47925 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 16:37:01 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg47852#msg47852 date=1264089654]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg47746#msg47746 date=1264085688]
He's talking about the word "futa" which I THINK breaks down into this.thing.which or something to that effect. (Not sure what the -t- does in it.)
[/quote]

Yeah, fì'u-t-a seems like what it breaks down too but why do you drop the ì' and I also don't see why it needs an accusative infix on it.
[/quote]

Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?



msg=47953 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 16:58:50 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg47925#msg47925 date=1264091821]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg47852#msg47852 date=1264089654]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg47746#msg47746 date=1264085688]
He's talking about the word "futa" which I THINK breaks down into this.thing.which or something to that effect. (Not sure what the -t- does in it.)
[/quote]

Yeah, fì'u-t-a seems like what it breaks down too but why do you drop the ì' and I also don't see why it needs an accusative infix on it.
[/quote]

Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?
[/quote]

Perhaps it's a new word that's derived from 'fì'u' but cannot be directly broken down to 'fì'u'



msg=47959 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 17:00:52 | u=401

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Harìghawnu

[quote]Has anyone noticed that the grammatic role "tsakrr" fills isn't that of a noun, like tsa+othernoun typically (Presumably) would?[/quote]

Well ... doesn't seem to be something new, since it's the same in the "Hunt Song":

\



msg=47976 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 17:09:27 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg47925#msg47925 date=1264091821]Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?
[/quote]

The /t/ is there because it is the object of the verb:

I know that (...).
Subj V Obj

You're getting the subordinate clause marker taking the case for the whole clause..



msg=47990 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 17:13:35 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg47374#msg47374 date=1264069473]
Has anyone noticed that the grammatic role "tsakrr" fills isn't that of a noun, like tsa+othernoun typically (Presumably) would?

We see this in Avatar too, "Oel pot spìmìyang, tsakrr za'a aungia ta Eywa" - I was about to kill him, then(that-time) come sign from Eywa

Tì'eyngit oel tolel a krr, ayngaru payeng, tsakrr paye'un sweya fya'ot a zamivunge oel ayngar aylì'ut horentisì lì'fyayä leNa'vi.
I get answer which time, will tell to you, then(that-time) decide best way that I give to you words and rules of Na'vi language
[/quote]Hmm...  To me, tsakrr just seems like a normal "then" conjunction type thing.  For /a krr/, I wonder if it's something more like "at the same time..."  So maybe this is more like "As soon as I hear, I will tell you.  And then, after I've told you, at some point, I'll decide..."



msg=48000 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 17:16:24 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg47976#msg47976 date=1264093767]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg47925#msg47925 date=1264091821]Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?
[/quote]

The /t/ is there because it is the object of the verb:

I know that (...).
Subj V Obj

You're getting the subordinate clause marker taking the case for the whole clause..
[/quote]

doh, I looked through that sentence looking specifically for that but some how overlooked it. Anyway, irayo.



msg=48122 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 18:09:14 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=Tawtute link=topic=2623.msg47828#msg47828 date=1264088433]This kìyevame breaks up into kame, ìy, and ev. We know that the whole meaning is “see again soon”.
We know that ìy is recent future infix, so kìyame is “see soon”, but what is ev? If think that is the infix for repeating, so kevame would mean “re-see”.[/quote]

Perhaps it's reflexive (we know this is possible from Frommer, just not what the infix is), "we'll see *each other*."



msg=48150 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 18:19:38 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg48122#msg48122 date=1264097354]
[quote author=Tawtute link=topic=2623.msg47828#msg47828 date=1264088433]This kìyevame breaks up into kame, ìy, and ev. We know that the whole meaning is “see again soon”.
We know that ìy is recent future infix, so kìyame is “see soon”, but what is ev? If think that is the infix for repeating, so kevame would mean “re-see”.[/quote]

Perhaps it's reflexive (we know this is possible from Frommer, just not what the infix is), "we'll see *each other*."
[/quote]

Oooo, I like were you're going with this, makes a lot of sense to me and I don't think we've had any other cannon phrases that have used anything that could be similar to a reflexive form, yes?



msg=48176 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 18:29:42 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg48150#msg48150 date=1264097978]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg48122#msg48122 date=1264097354]
[quote author=Tawtute link=topic=2623.msg47828#msg47828 date=1264088433]This kìyevame breaks up into kame, ìy, and ev. We know that the whole meaning is “see again soon”.
We know that ìy is recent future infix, so kìyame is “see soon”, but what is ev? If think that is the infix for repeating, so kevame would mean “re-see”.[/quote]

Perhaps it's reflexive (we know this is possible from Frommer, just not what the infix is), "we'll see *each other*."
[/quote]

Oooo, I like were you're going with this, makes a lot of sense to me and I don't think we've had any other cannon phrases that have used anything that could be similar to a reflexive form, yes?
[/quote]

Dr. Frommer has confirmed in personal emails (not to me) that there is no <ev> infix.  Why it's there in kìyevame, has not been explained though.

-Keyl



msg=48189 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 18:37:43 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(



msg=48197 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 18:42:11 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg48189#msg48189 date=1264099063]
Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(
[/quote]

Agreed, a blanket statement saying that <ev> doesn't exist really screws things up... I guess that means '(k)ev' is in some way a (possibly liniated) word, probably one that we don't have?



msg=48211 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 18:47:39 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg48197#msg48197 date=1264099331]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg48189#msg48189 date=1264099063]
Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(
[/quote]

Agreed, a blanket statement saying that <ev> doesn't exist really screws things up... I guess that means '(k)ev' is in some way a (possibly liniated) word, probably one that we don't have?
[/quote]

High traffic words have a tendency to be irregular  It's probably not going to be anything we use anywhere else, sadly.

-Keyl



msg=48234 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 18:59:00 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

I'm still thinking it's going to turn out to be the subjunctive:

"May (we) see (each other) soon!"



msg=48336 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 19:36:27 | u=390

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

robert

Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan...

Confirmation on chained possessiveness, if I'm correct?

Useful for things like "... my bow's string's length...". Appears to be order dependent but not location dependent around the possessed object?

If I am translating the sentence right, it reads Language (of) 'your (one/particular)'(?) young-friend Markus... it looks like you can put the possessor nouns before or after their object (language your(one/particular) friend's) OR (your(one/particular) friend's language).

much to think about  :)



msg=48375 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 19:46:42 | u=390

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

robert

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg47410#msg47410 date=1264070859]
(clip) However IANAL so... (clip)
[/quote]

wow... I just got this.... *facepalm*

tslolam!  ;)



msg=48392 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 19:53:28 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan...
word-PL-per 1-PL-INCL-GEN friend-GEN young-ATTR

Awngeyä 'eylan a'ewan...
Our young friend

Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan...
The words of our young friend



msg=48397 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 19:55:03 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg47976#msg47976 date=1264093767]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg47925#msg47925 date=1264091821]Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?
[/quote]

The /t/ is there because it is the object of the verb:

I know that (...).
Subj V Obj

You're getting the subordinate clause marker taking the case for the whole clause..
[/quote]

Ahh OK.  That's what I was speculating in my mind but it didn't seem to work right until I saw it written down. Oe ngaru irayo si.

[quote author=Robert Nantangä Tirea link=topic=2623.msg48375#msg48375 date=1264103202]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg47410#msg47410 date=1264070859]
(clip) However IANAL so... (clip)
[/quote]

wow... I just got this.... *facepalm*

tslolam!  ;)
[/quote]

What did you think it was before? Hopefully not something to do with aytìm...



msg=48402 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 19:57:11 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Robert Nantangä Tirea link=topic=2623.msg48336#msg48336 date=1264102587]
Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan...

Confirmation on chained possessiveness, if I'm correct?

Useful for things like "... my bow's string's length...". Appears to be order dependent but not location dependent around the possessed object?

If I am translating the sentence right, it reads Language (of) 'your (one/particular)'(?) young-friend Markus... it looks like you can put the possessor nouns before or after their object (language your(one/particular) friend's) OR (your(one/particular) friend's language).[/quote]I think this is actually:

Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young

So we get:

[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."



msg=48412 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 20:01:26 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

I was thinking about "work" some more...

Frommer says "kan" is "aim," which probably becomes "kang" because of the following /k/.  The "kem," I think, is the same morpheme we see in, e.g., "fìkem, tsakem," etc., where it refers to a manner or action.  So

tìkangkem si

would be, literally, "do like aiming," "do in a way like aiming," which, if you're a hunter, is probably a bit like a writer using "put pen to paper" to refer to work...



msg=48418 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 20:04:11 | u=390

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

robert

Any refrence for awgne as us (leading to awngeyä as our)?




msg=48423 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 20:05:05 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg48402#msg48402 date=1264103831]
I think this is actually:

Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young

So we get:

[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."
[/quote]

It can probably be broken down to: Ay-lì'u-fa (PL-word-by.means.of)

Which would then suggest "Words (that came to us) by means of Markus, our young friend"

Of course this interpretation somewhat disregards the -GEN on the end of friend... :/



msg=48427 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 20:06:12 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Robert Nantangä Tirea link=topic=2623.msg48418#msg48418 date=1264104251]
Any refrence for awgne as us (leading to awngeyä as our)?


[/quote]

He uses "awnga" to mean "us" as a contracted version of ayoeng quite a few times in the message.

This would then go to "awngeyä" using awnga + -eyä pronoun genitive suffix.



msg=48561 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 20:45:27 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg48423#msg48423 date=1264104305]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg48402#msg48402 date=1264103831]
I think this is actually:

Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young

So we get:

[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."
[/quote]

It can probably be broken down to: Ay-lì'u-fa (PL-word-by.means.of)

Which would then suggest "Words (that came to us) by means of Markus, our young friend"

Of course this interpretation somewhat disregards the -GEN on the end of friend... :/
[/quote]

The English version is the "words of our young friend" variety.
By means of the words of our young friend
Of young friend = 'eylanä a'ewan
Our = awngeyä

It's a little twisted because you have "our" associated to the noun to the right, then "our young friend" assicated to the left of that.  But that is the only interpretation that makes sense in that context, since pronouns can not really be possessed.  I'm not sure why he did it that way, and I'm disappointed because I was curious what would happen if the adjective slipped between the nouns.  However, there are cases which make a difference..

If it were (Dropping the adposition)...
Aylì'u sempulyä oeyä 'eylanä a'ewan
The words of my young friend's father?
The words of my father's young friend?


In this case I *THINK* it could be disambiguated by the same means, moving the pronoun to before sempul or after 'eylan.  Without the pronoun that wouldn't be possible, but you can always stick a pronoun in there, because it is someone's father and someone's friend.



msg=48579 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 20:49:46 | u=1011

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Kiliyä

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg48561#msg48561 date=1264106727]If it were (Dropping the adposition)...
Aylì'u sempulyä oeyä 'eylanä a'ewan
The words of my young friend's father?
The words of my father's young friend?

In this case I *THINK* it could be disambiguated by the same means, moving the pronoun to before sempul or after 'eylan.  Without the pronoun that wouldn't be possible, but you can always stick a pronoun in there, because it is someone's father and someone's friend.
[/quote]
the words of the father of the young friend of me.

aylì'u sempulyä 'eylanä a'ewan oeyä...



msg=48598 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 20:57:15 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=2623.msg48579#msg48579 date=1264106986]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg48561#msg48561 date=1264106727]If it were (Dropping the adposition)...
Aylì'u sempulyä oeyä 'eylanä a'ewan
The words of my young friend's father?
The words of my father's young friend?

In this case I *THINK* it could be disambiguated by the same means, moving the pronoun to before sempul or after 'eylan.  Without the pronoun that wouldn't be possible, but you can always stick a pronoun in there, because it is someone's father and someone's friend.
[/quote]
the words of the father of the young friend of me.

aylì'u sempulyä 'eylanä a'ewan oeyä...
[/quote]

Right - I think that's what he meant by [quote]I *THINK* it could be disambiguated by the same means, moving the pronoun to before sempul or after 'eylan.[/quote]



msg=48610 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 21:01:13 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Srane, that is exactly what I meant by it.  The pronoun can not be possessed (My father's me?  Me of my father?  Doesn't make sense) so you start at the pronoun and work out.  I'd imagine once you start throwing in multiple genitives like that you'd need a pronoun somewhere in there for that reason, even if that's just a fì'u (Or other fì, tsa, fay, etc word)



msg=48617 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 21:02:58 | u=631

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Can anyone confirm the part:

[quote]mipa aylì'u 'upxareyä ta Karyu Pawl / new vocabulary from the message from Karyu Paul[/quote]

[font=Garamond]does that mean: mip = new ?


[quote]Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young
So we get:
[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."[/quote]

[font=Garamond]fa is the adposition for "with, by means of", if I'm not mistaken

Irayo



msg=48638 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 21:10:33 | u=417

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=2623.msg48617#msg48617 date=1264107778]
[font=Garamond]Can anyone confirm the part:

[quote]mipa aylì'u 'upxareyä ta Karyu Pawl / new vocabulary from the message from Karyu Paul[/quote]

[font=Garamond]does that mean: mip = new ?


[quote]Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young
So we get:
[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."[/quote]

[font=Garamond]fa is the adposition for "with, by means of", if I'm not mistaken

Irayo

[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that has been confirmed about mip.

And I think we beat you to the punch on -fa :P

(P.S: Does anybody else think Prrton's avatar pic is a bit creepy? Something about the eyes.. [sorry Prrton!])



msg=48650 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 21:17:29 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg48638#msg48638 date=1264108233]
(P.S: Does anybody else think Prrton's avatar pic is a bit creepy? Something about the eyes.. [sorry Prrton!])
[/quote]

You're not alone :P



msg=48707 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 21:39:49 | u=631

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Plumps83

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=2623.msg48638#msg48638 date=1264108233]
I'm pretty sure that has been confirmed about mip.

And I think we beat you to the punch on -fa :P[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Okay, great.

I was just writing it again, because suomichris didn't seem to know what it meant...

Yeah, Prrton's pic looks like Gollum gone blue ;D



msg=48753 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 21:51:09 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg48189#msg48189 date=1264099063]
Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(
[/quote]
Well, he said that in response to my mishearing <iv> for <ev> in a different verb; I immediately asked why we get it then in kìyevame, but he hasn't[evidential infix here] gotten to that part of his email backlog yet. If he did mean it across the board, as his wording would suggest, then maybe the <ev> here is sound change on <iv>, "may (we) see (e.o.) soon", as suomichris suggested.



msg=48923 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 22:56:12 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg48412#msg48412 date=1264104086]
So tìkangkem si would be, literally, "do like aiming," "do in a way like aiming," which, if you're a hunter, is probably a bit like a writer using "put pen to paper" to refer to work...
[/quote]
That's a nice analogy.



msg=48932 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-21 23:01:52 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=2623.msg48707#msg48707 date=1264109989]
Yeah, Prrton's pic looks like Gollum gone blue ;D
[/quote]
I was just thinking a Na'vi hobbit. Not creepy, though.



msg=49052 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 00:09:02 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg48753#msg48753 date=1264110669]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg48189#msg48189 date=1264099063]
Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(
[/quote]
Well, he said that in response to my mishearing <iv> for <ev> in a different verb; I immediately asked why we get it then in kìyevame, but he hasn't[evidential infix here] gotten to that part of his email backlog yet. If he did mean it across the board, as his wording would suggest, then maybe the <ev> here is sound change on <iv>, "may (we) see (e.o.) soon", as suomichris suggested.
[/quote]Sorry, roger, I thought I had responded to what you said, and can't find the bit in question now... Can you repost/restate what you said/asked/queried?



msg=49058 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 00:11:21 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg48923#msg48923 date=1264114572]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg48412#msg48412 date=1264104086]
So tìkangkem si would be, literally, "do like aiming," "do in a way like aiming," which, if you're a hunter, is probably a bit like a writer using "put pen to paper" to refer to work...
[/quote]
That's a nice analogy.
[/quote]Thanks!  I don't want to go nuts-o (OOPS! Too late) trying to parse out everything we find, but since we have both kan and kem for sure, and that this explains both why it shows up with si and a nominalizer....  Ya, I think this is probably more solid than some of my other analyses :p



msg=49123 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 00:55:32 | u=28

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wisnij

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg45951#msg45951 date=1264021570]
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
[/quote]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffixaufnahme]Not[/url] [url=http://linguistlist.org/aristar/aufnahme.html]necessarily[/url].



msg=49137 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 01:08:18 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=wisnij link=topic=2623.msg49123#msg49123 date=1264121732]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg45951#msg45951 date=1264021570]
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
[/quote]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffixaufnahme]Not[/url] [url=http://linguistlist.org/aristar/aufnahme.html]necessarily[/url].
[/quote]I have never heard of this phenomenon, but fail to see how it is interesting...  Are you thinking this is what's happening in Na'vi?



msg=49144 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 01:17:15 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=wisnij link=topic=2623.msg49123#msg49123 date=1264121732]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg45951#msg45951 date=1264021570]
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
[/quote]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffixaufnahme]Not[/url] [url=http://linguistlist.org/aristar/aufnahme.html]necessarily[/url].
[/quote]
If I'm understanding what it's saying, I think we'd notice if Na'vi did it.

To take the genitive example they have of "man's feet" where the word for "man" gets the case from "feet", we'd end up with...  (Substituting in a word we know - eyes)

Mesutetiyä menariti
person-DUAL-ACC-GEN eye-DUAL-ACC

But we don't...  We get

Tuteyä menariti
person-GEN eye-DUAL-ACC

So within the context of Na'vi (Which is how I meant it...) I stand by that statement.



msg=49159 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 01:34:11 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

Ah, we have one possibly counterexample, at least according to the SG appendix. There sat is listed as "that" after ftu "from". I'd like to see the text for that to be sure, though.

Also, is "those" attested? We know "these" is fay-, but "those" could potentially be either tsay- or sa-. E.g., are the plurals of fì'u, tsa'u = fay'u, tsay'u or ayfí'u, sa'u?



msg=49164 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 01:40:15 | u=664

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg49144#msg49144 date=1264123035]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg45951#msg45951 date=1264021570]
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
[/quote]
Mesutetiyä menariti
person-DUAL-ACC-GEN eye-DUAL-ACC
[/quote]

(emphasis mine)

I thought we were talking about noun case + adpositions?  Why does the non-combining of noun cases prove anything about that?

-Keyl



msg=49176 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 01:50:42 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg49159#msg49159 date=1264124051]
Ah, we have one possibly counterexample, at least according to the SG appendix. There sat is listed as "that" after ftu "from". I'd like to see the text for that to be sure, though.

Also, is "those" attested? We know "these" is fay-, but "those" could potentially be either tsay- or sa-. E.g., are the plurals of fì'u, tsa'u = fay'u, tsay'u or ayfí'u, sa'u?
[/quote]I don't see that as a counter example.  In fact, I see that as attesting that "ftu" is ADP+ and for some reason someone felt like listing the lenited accusitive "that" on it's own.

ftu + tsat = ftu sat



msg=49179 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 01:53:39 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg49159#msg49159 date=1264124051]E.g., are the plurals of fì'u, tsa'u = fay'u, tsay'u or ayfí'u, sa'u?[/quote]

I really hope fayu and *tsayu (assuming tsay- is correct).



msg=49190 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 02:02:19 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg49176#msg49176 date=1264125042]
I don't see that as a counter example.  In fact, I see that as attesting that "ftu" is ADP+ and for some reason someone felt like listing the lenited accusitive "that" on it's own.

ftu + tsat = ftu sat
[/quote]
But accusative "that", correct? If the idea that we don't have multiple cases is right, we shouldn't get the accusative after ftu.



msg=49206 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 02:13:04 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg49190#msg49190 date=1264125739]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg49176#msg49176 date=1264125042]
I don't see that as a counter example.  In fact, I see that as attesting that "ftu" is ADP+ and for some reason someone felt like listing the lenited accusitive "that" on it's own.

ftu + tsat = ftu sat
[/quote]
But accusative "that", correct? If the idea that we don't have multiple cases is right, we shouldn't get the accusative after ftu.
[/quote]Gee thanks for pointing out I'm contradicting myself. :P

Given that "after ftu" is their words, and assuming we are correct that "ftu" is a preposition (Which causing lenition seems to indicate - besides prepositions only prefixes cause lenition that I know of) that leads me to believe I was incorrect in declaring it as the accusitive "that".  Perhaps rather it is merely the root word "that" from which the prefix "tsa-" is derived from?  It does sort of sound close to how you would render the English "That" in Na'vi, truth be told.  (Slightly different vowel, but otherwise...)



msg=49210 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 02:14:08 | u=390

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

robert

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg48402#msg48402 date=1264103831]
I think this is actually:

Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young

So we get:

[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."
[/quote]

That's very poetic but if one has to read that much transformation into such a simple phrase to you're looking at an IMPOSSIBLE amount of mental processing if you're hoping to ever achieve fluent speach. I wasn't questioning the correctness or translation of the phrase by any means, I was bringing up for discussion the subject of the affect that placing the possessor after the possessed does on the sentence.

It looks like you're implying that constructing the relationship ikran oeyä states the ikran of mine. The inverse of this is would be oeyä ikran means my ikran. This works fine conceptually, and in most sentences this works and the relationship is understood and the free word order concept is preserved.

You've applied this defenition to the sentence Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan... to create The words (by means) of the young friend of ours. This sounds fine written out EXCEPT, how in this case is the presence of "-ä" on friend supposed to tie to Ayli'ufa? If we take the claim it does infact refrence whose words are the means of, this implies it is refrencing Ayli'ufa even though awngeyä sits between them. If this is attributed to free word order, then what is stopping the sentence from being read The words (by means) of we of the young friend? which hardly makes sense at all. If it is assumed that the listener in this case would understand because only one construction makes sense (The words (by means) of the young friend of ours) then we are again full circle back around again to the issue that we are requiring the listener to sift thru and process and so many options that it would make normal conversation impossible.

That's why I stated that looked like a "chain"of possession was occuring and that this chain's presence on the right side of Ayli'ufa indicated that the noun with the possession was not bound to a specific side of the word it possesses (which fits with the ikran oeyä and oeyä ikran idea); BUT, under an instance of "chained" possession (aka my bow's string's length) that it is probably necessary to have them in specific order.

to me, it seams:
Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan... could be just as equally written awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan Aylì'ufa....

hope that helps clarify what I am  trying to say. I'm NOT saying the sentence is wrong, I am saying however that I don't think we should fall prey to classic "20-20 hindesight" factor of having a translation provided. Provided translations tend to make people gloss over otherwise confusing issues that haven't been explained. If I have tried to write the sentence "In the words of our friend Hunter..." BEFORE you read it in Frommer's email, what would you have said?


EDIT: fixed some spelling/grammar mistakes.



msg=49248 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 02:33:44 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

[quote author=Robert Nantangä Tirea link=topic=2623.msg49210#msg49210 date=1264126448]
hope that helps clarify what I am  trying to say. I'm NOT saying the sentence is wrong, I am saying however that I don't think we should fall prey to classic "20-20 hindesight" factor of having a translation provided. Provided translations tend to make people gloss over otherwise confusing issues that haven't been explained. If I have tried to write the sentence "In the words of our friend Hunter..." BEFORE you read it in Frommer's email, what would you have said?
[/quote][smartass]I would have said "We don't have a word for friend."[/smartass]

That said, the whole "genitive mosh pit" as I call it looks daunting, but try following along as someone tells you "My father's brother's cousin's sister's uncle's former roommate" then tell them exactly what that relationship is to you.  There's even a riddle that takes advantage of such genitive mind benders.  "That man's father is my father's son.  Who is that man?"  No matter the language, stacked genitives beyond reason can be confusing.

That said, you're looking at this from an English perspective, where you're trying to assign meaning to the word order.  There is none there.  Either direction means the same thing, which can either be "My thing" or "Thing of me".  We say them differently in English, but not all languages make the distinction.  "In the words of our friend" vs "In our friend's words" - even though we say it differently the meaning is the same.

That said, I don't remember if it was this thread or another where I took the ambiguous genitive bull by the horns and wrestled with it.  I found out two things with that exercise.  The first is that it's really hard to make an ambiguous genitive that doesn't start to deal with the whole stacking issue above.  The second is that it's also really simple to avoid.  Since it does not make sense that a pronoun can be posessed, if you include a pronoun (Us in Frommer's sentence) that becomes the head noun.  Just work outward from there.  HOWEVER, to avoid ambiguity, you MUST say it as the first OR last in a line of genitives.  (Think of English: My father's uncle's son vs The son of the uncle of the father of me.  Either of those orders would work fine in Na'vi.  If you didn't already have a pronoun, you can ALWAYS add one, even if it is just "this" or "that".

So to a native/fluent speaker, I suspect it's a non-issue.



msg=49297 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 02:56:12 | u=28

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wisnij

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg49137#msg49137 date=1264122498]
[quote author=wisnij link=topic=2623.msg49123#msg49123 date=1264121732]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg45951#msg45951 date=1264021570]
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
[/quote]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffixaufnahme]Not[/url] [url=http://linguistlist.org/aristar/aufnahme.html]necessarily[/url].
[/quote]I have never heard of this phenomenon, but fail to see how it is interesting...  Are you thinking this is what's happening in Na'vi?
[/quote]

No, just pointing out that double cases are not a priori impossible.



msg=49317 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 03:04:07 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Srane I will grant nga that, slä ayoeng have no reason to believe it makes sense in Na'vi.

(Yay broken Na'vi! :D)



msg=49349 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 03:13:19 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Robert Nantangä Tirea link=topic=2623.msg49210#msg49210 date=1264126448]That's very poetic but if one has to read that much transformation into such a simple phrase to you're looking at an IMPOSSIBLE amount of mental processing if you're hoping to ever achieve fluent speach. I wasn't questioning the correctness or translation of the phrase by any means, I was bringing up for discussion the subject of the affect that placing the possessor after the possessed does on the sentence.[/quote]Well, I don't think it requires very much processing.  But, if it did, well, the Na'vi are aliens, so maybe it's fine.  It's also possible that this form was chosen by Frommer as being particularly poetic, even if it is hard to parse.

[quote]It looks like you're implying that constructing the relationship ikran oeyä states the ikran of mine. The inverse of this is would be oeyä ikran means my ikran. This works fine conceptually, and in most sentences this works and the relationship is understood and the free word order concept is preserved.[/quote]I'm not doing this at all.  I was writing the English in the same order and using that structure to demonstrate the structure of the Na'vi.  I don't think the different word orders mean anything different.

Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan... could be just as equally written awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan Aylì'ufa....[/quote]I think we're saying (roughly) the same thing, but perhaps for different reasons.  Let's look at how I broke down the structure of this:

[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]

Now, I think what you're saying makes sense, if we consider that in possessor-possessed constructions, we can have either order.  So, just as

Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]

Is acceptable, so too might be:

[Awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan] aylì'ufa

This is exactly the same kind of difference in oeyä ikran and ikran oeyä; namely, none.  BUT, a caveat.  This could lead to all sorts of confusion about whose what is whose.  I wonder if we won't see that, just as you can have either oeyä ikran or ikran oeyä, you can also have either order in more complicated strings of genitives, but you have to use the same order throughout. So it might really be that the equivalent of:

Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]

would be

['ewana 'eylanä] awngeyä] Aylì'ufa].

More examples will tell!



msg=49351 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 03:14:05 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=wisnij link=topic=2623.msg49297#msg49297 date=1264128972]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg49137#msg49137 date=1264122498]
[quote author=wisnij link=topic=2623.msg49123#msg49123 date=1264121732]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg45951#msg45951 date=1264021570]
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
[/quote]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffixaufnahme]Not[/url] [url=http://linguistlist.org/aristar/aufnahme.html]necessarily[/url].
[/quote]I have never heard of this phenomenon, but fail to see how it is interesting...  Are you thinking this is what's happening in Na'vi?
[/quote]

No, just pointing out that double cases are not a priori impossible.
[/quote]Ah, okay... You hurt my head a little bit where I was trying to find out what in Na'vi was looking like that to you :p



msg=49379 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 03:23:23 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Am I stealing your argument again suomichris? :P



msg=49427 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 03:42:46 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg49379#msg49379 date=1264130603]
Am I stealing your argument again suomichris? :P
[/quote]Maybe....  Rä'ä!!



msg=49506 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 04:29:53 | u=54

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tiger

Oeru txoa livu!  New ke tsa'ut oel.



msg=53861 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-24 09:21:06 | u=1814

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

fallkxang

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg49506#msg49506 date=1264134593]
Oeru txoa livu!  New ke tsa'ut oel.
[/quote]

irayo nìtxan matsmukan!
that was very helpful for me in deciphering another line from the movie! that makes me very happy



msg=54813 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-24 20:08:56 | u=781

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tanax

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2623.msg49506#msg49506 date=1264134593]
Oeru txoa livu!  New ke tsa'ut oel.
[/quote]

I forgiveness wish to get! I don't want that ??
Or did I completely misunderstand your sentence?



msg=54836 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-24 20:17:52 | u=195

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

esoanem

You got it right.

Idiomatically the first sentence is more like please forgive me.

Omängum was saying that he didn't want to steal suomichris-ä argument.



msg=55089 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-24 22:13:11 | u=781

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Tanax

[quote author=kawngä mungeyu link=topic=2623.msg54836#msg54836 date=1264364272]
You got it right.

Idiomatically the first sentence is more like please forgive me.

Omängum was saying that he didn't want to steal suomichris-ä argument.
[/quote]

Oh.. right. I thought he first said "Please forgive me" and then after he said "I don't want that"(to be forgiven) so the 2 sentences contradicted each other when I first read it :P
Thanks for clearing that up.



msg=55227 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-24 23:26:50 | u=1855

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

tawway

After wading through this thread there was only one mention of the poor "e" disappearing. I listened to one of the simple sentences in the message ("kìyevame ulte eywa ngahu") quite a few times because the sounds stood out, only to conclude that either my ears are missing stuff or there are a few syllables missing.

It sounds like "kì.ye.vam ult ey.wa nga.hu" to me. I gather that it's a known phenomenon and I just haven't found any other mention of it?




msg=55261 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-24 23:59:43 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=tawway link=topic=2623.msg55227#msg55227 date=1264375610]
After wading through this thread there was only one mention of the poor "e" disappearing. I listened to one of the simple sentences in the message ("kìyevame ulte eywa ngahu") quite a few times because the sounds stood out, only to conclude that either my ears are missing stuff or there are a few syllables missing.

It sounds like "kì.ye.vam ult ey.wa nga.hu" to me. I gather that it's a known phenomenon and I just haven't found any other mention of it?
[/quote]

Na'vi vowels blend together so having two e's, one after another, results in just one 'e' sound.



msg=55296 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 00:42:10 | u=21

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

wm.annis

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg55261#msg55261 date=1264377583]Na'vi vowels blend together so having two e's, one after another, results in just one 'e' sound.[/quote]

From the spoken Message, Frommer seems to be eliding final -e before several vowel sounds, not just another e



msg=55388 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 02:11:05 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg55296#msg55296 date=1264380130]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg55261#msg55261 date=1264377583]Na'vi vowels blend together so having two e's, one after another, results in just one 'e' sound.[/quote]

From the spoken Message, Frommer seems to be eliding final -e before several vowel sounds, not just another e
[/quote]

Really? I didn't catch that and will go and listen for that. Am I correct though in that double vowels are generally blended? (or elided I guess?)



msg=55396 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 02:14:45 | u=1855

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

tawway

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg55296#msg55296 date=1264380130]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg55261#msg55261 date=1264377583]Na'vi vowels blend together so having two e's, one after another, results in just one 'e' sound.[/quote]

From the spoken Message, Frommer seems to be eliding final -e before several vowel sounds, not just another e
[/quote]

Yes, in this case there is also an e before u. To me removing the double e makes sense but "kìyevam ulte" seems more like a french moment.

Good to know it's not my ears playing tricks although in one interview "kameie" sounds like it lost an e too. I wonder if that's just the final e being quiet/short and difficult to hear.



msg=55399 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 02:17:02 | u=1855

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

tawway

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg55388#msg55388 date=1264385465]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2623.msg55296#msg55296 date=1264380130]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg55261#msg55261 date=1264377583]Na'vi vowels blend together so having two e's, one after another, results in just one 'e' sound.[/quote]

From the spoken Message, Frommer seems to be eliding final -e before several vowel sounds, not just another e
[/quote]

Really? I didn't catch that and will go and listen for that. Am I correct though in that double vowels are generally blended? (or elided I guess?)
[/quote]

I suspect that it'll be doubles or difficult vowel transitions. Who knows, there may even be a rule or two somewhere in the jungle foliage. We'll just have to wait and see what future samples hold.



msg=55640 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 05:30:48 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

I'm thinking we should probably put an analyzed version of the letter up on the wiki, with links to sections about the relevant morphemes.  I'm happy to use my copy, and folks can make changes to what I've done directly.

Before I do this, though, is there any reason we shouldn't?  Since the letter is already publicly available here, it seems to me like it would be okay, but I am hardly an expert on such matters....



msg=55662 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 05:51:17 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul[/url]

Have at it.

  - Eri



msg=55669 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 05:56:14 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=2623.msg55662#msg55662 date=1264398677]
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul[/url]

Have at it.

  - Eri[/quote]Ah, I am a fool; couldn't find that.  Thanks!



msg=55688 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 06:07:07 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=2623.msg55669#msg55669 date=1264398974]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=2623.msg55662#msg55662 date=1264398677]
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul[/url]

Have at it.

  - Eri[/quote]Ah, I am a fool; couldn't find that.  Thanks!
[/quote]

It's brand-spanking new.  Check [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul&action=history]the timestamps[/url].

Plus, you know, it's a wiki.  If you can't find it, you can make it!

  - Eri



msg=56823 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 21:17:21 | u=2788

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg48753#msg48753 date=1264110669]
Well, he said that in response to my mishearing <iv> for <ev> in a different verb; I immediately asked why we get it then in kìyevame, but he hasn't[evidential infix here] gotten to that part of his email backlog yet. If he did mean it across the board, as his wording would suggest, then maybe the <ev> here is sound change on <iv>, "may (we) see (e.o.) soon", as suomichris suggested.
[/quote]

That would be my guess too, and that "again" in the English translation is just implied. Perhaps there is both i-affection and ì-affection in Na'vi? I'm thinking kìyevame < *kìyivame and possibly tsap'alute sengi < *tsap'alute sängi. On the other hand, it may be simple sandhi -- or something else entirely which we haven't heard about yet. But it's fun to speculate, no? ;)



msg=58319 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 17:21:47 | u=2788

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Seabass link=topic=2623.msg45745#msg45745 date=1264018280]
Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan Markusì ta Ngalwey . . . 'Ivong Na'vi! :: In the words of our young friend Markus from Galway . . . Let Na'vi bloom!

[/quote]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and it took me quite some time to notice it as well, but it has been giving me pause since. Given the context, it is fairly clear that Frommer is here referring to the Na'vi language, but in all other instances this is rendered as lì'fya leNa'vi as we would expect. In this case, however, we just see the proper noun, so isn't he literally saying "let The People bloom"?

What's up? Is it a shorthand? Fu kxeyey soli ayoengeyä nawma Karyu srak? ???



msg=58325 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 17:24:56 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

I saw that a while back and assumed he was just quoting Markus but perhaps he literally does mean let 'the people' bloom. I don't think it's shorthand though.



msg=58335 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 17:30:54 | u=2788

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=2623.msg58325#msg58325 date=1264526696]
I saw that a while back and assumed he was just quoting Markus [..]
[/quote]

In all likelihood, yes. But that begs the question: did Markus say 'Ivong Na'vi! or "Let Na'vi bloom!"? (Where's the quote from? Is it public?)



msg=58347 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 17:37:34 | u=430

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

TehMightyPirate

[quote]Markus Scully,  Galway, Ireland
I'm only 11 and haven't learnt much of the language but I am fascinated by it.'Ong Na'vi.[/quote]

Hmm, so I guess he's quoting but also corrected the spelling.



msg=58410 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 18:09:32 | u=2325

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

suomichris

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=2623.msg58319#msg58319 date=1264526507]I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and it took me quite some time to notice it as well, but it has been giving me pause since. Given the context, it is fairly clear that Frommer is here referring to the Na'vi language, but in all other instances this is rendered as lì'fya leNa'vi as we would expect. In this case, however, we just see the proper noun, so isn't he literally saying "let The People bloom"?[/quote]Well, a couple of things to keep in mind...

First, of course, is that "Na'vi" in English means both the language and the people, which might be similar to what happens in Na'vi.  All of the other places where we see it, it is clearly modifying something else to make it clear that the language is being spoken about, but that might not be necessary.  For example, when we speak in the Na'vi language, we say "plltxe nìNa'vi," but there is nothing in there about the language specifically.

I'm not sure I'm getting at what I'm trying to, so let me just tell you what I was thinking...  In Finnish, the word "Finland" and the word "Finnish" are the same word (as are many other countries/languages).  Now, you can almost always tell them apart by case marking and the like, but if you want to be totally clear, you can say something like "Finland's language" to make sure it's clear what you're talking about.  This is what you would do if you wanted to make a difference between, say "Finnish is beautiful" and "Finland is beautiful."

Also, it's very common for more traditional societies to refer to themselves simply as "people," and the language name often comes from that, so you get people saying they speak "people," but it's really "the language of the people."  If that makes any sense at all...



msg=58434 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 18:21:28 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=2623.msg58335#msg58335 date=1264527054]
But that begs the question: did Markus say 'Ivong Na'vi! or "Let Na'vi bloom!"? (Where's the quote from? Is it public?)
[/quote]

It's from the [url=http://masempul.org/]http://masempul.org/[/url] petition page.  About two-thirds of the way down.  Do a find-on-the-page in your browser for "Galway":

[quote]
Markus Scully,  GALWAY, IRELAND
I'm only 11 and haven't learnt much of the language but I am fascinated by it.'Ong Na'vi.
[/quote]

Quite remarkable, really, and I think it's neat that Frommer picked up on it.

  - Eri



msg=58437 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 18:22:06 | u=1120

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

roger

I might expect 'ivong leNa'vi. We'll have to ask Frommer if this is an exception because he's quoting.



msg=58442 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 18:23:16 | u=1485

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Erimeyz

[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg58437#msg58437 date=1264530126]
I might expect 'ivong leNa'vi. We'll have to ask Frommer if this is an exception because he's quoting.
[/quote]

Well, he expanded on Markus' grammar, so it's not a straight quote.

 - Eri



msg=58457 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 18:30:34 | u=2788

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=2623.msg58442#msg58442 date=1264530196]
[quote author=roger link=topic=2623.msg58437#msg58437 date=1264530126]
I might expect 'ivong leNa'vi. We'll have to ask Frommer if this is an exception because he's quoting.
[/quote]

Well, he expanded on Markus' grammar, so it's not a straight quote.
[/quote]

Right, which could point to the wording's being intentional. Interesting!



msg=58566 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 19:20:19 | u=401

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Harìghawnu

Well ... I do not think, that Frommer wanted to state, that "Na'vi" also can be used as a short form instead of "lì'fya leNa'vi". Otherwise he wouldn't have used the longer term in his other sentences again and again. I hold, that he simply was touched by the enthusiastic and even creative little phrase of this 11years old guy trying to master Na'vi, so that he chose this particular one to quote it in his message (after remodeling it a bit). I think, it was just a nice phrase to him, and that he surely not wanted to make this a paradigma for the correct usage of words in Na'vi. If he not had just remodeled the phrase, but also expanded it to "lì'fya leNa'vi", it weren't the words of "our young friend Markus" any longer.





msg=69083 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 00:54:03 | u=2046

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Utral Aymokriyä

what about this one?

if;

tìng nari -- "to see"
tìng mikyun -- "to listen"

so;

? tìng tìyawn -- "to love" ?

hence, love is a feeling that we feel and its ours to give whom we want, isnt it?


Edit: some typo errors corrected :)



msg=69368 | topic=2623 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 06:43:46 | u=401

Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter

Harìghawnu


Frommer says:

Nga yawne lu oer.
I love you.

URL: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#Lemondrop.com]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#Lemondrop.com[/url]

and explains it:

[quote]    Re "love": The "indirect" way is correct.

    I've been playing around with word orders to come up with the most euphonious version. For me, it's:

    Nga yawne lu oer.

    Five syllables (sentence stress on YAWN, of course), not too long . . . sounds good, I think. The laudatory infix (as someone has dubbed it) -ie- is possible but not necessary, and I've been omitting it here. "Love" itself is positive enough that it's probably redundant, and all other things being equal, shorter is better.

    As for the sentence with tìyawn si, yes, that might mean something different. I'll have to think about it!

    OK, here's a grammatical point I haven't yet talked about explicitly:

    "Si constructions" have a special syntax. They're considered intransitive--a bit strange, perhaps, but reasonable, I think. That is, "X si" is thought of as "engage in the X-activity," an intransitive concept. What would normally be considered the object is then in the dative, along the lines of, "engage in the X-activity to/for Y."

    So rather than *Oel ngati tìyawn si," we have Oe ngaru tìyawn si.

    The literal, pidgen-English translation would be something like "I do loving to/for you."

    As I said, I'll to think about the implications of that! [/quote]

URL: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Verb_Phrases_as_Objects]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Verb_Phrases_as_Objects[/url]



msg=51254 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-22 23:59:06 | u=2104

Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Mirri

I'm not sure if anyone beat me to it, but I tried to transcribe Pawl's letter. It was good practice anyway :)

Hopefully someone can help fill in the gaps.


  Ay-eylan-ur     oe-yä   sì     eylan-ur       lì'fya-yä      le-Na'vi      nì-wotx:
PLU-friend-DAT   I-GEN   and   PLU-friend-DAT   language-GEN   ADJ-Na'vi    ADJ-all of
To all my friends and friends of the Na'vi language:
\



msg=51274 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 00:09:15 | u=28

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

wisnij

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=2821.msg51254#msg51254 date=1264204746]
  tsa-krr     p<ay>e'un     sweya     fya'o-t    a     zam<iv>unge   oe-l   ay-ngar   ay-lì'u-t     horen-ti-sì       lì'fya-yä    le-Na'vi.
that-time   v.decide<FUT> ADJ-best   way-ACC   that   v.bring<SJV>  I-ERG   PLU-?   PLU-word-ACC   rule-ACC-NOUN?   language-GEN  ADJ-Na'vi.
and I will then decide the best way to bring you the words and rules of Na'vi.

  Ta   'eylan     karyu-sì          ay-nge-yä,      Pawl.
From   friend   v.teach-NOUN?    PLU-you(DEF)-GEN,  Paul.
Your friend and teacher, Paul.
[/quote]

I think both of these cases with -sì are using it as "and":

ay-lì'u-thoren-ti-sì
PL-word-ACCPL-rule-ACC-and

words and rules

'eylankaryu-sì
friendteacher-and

friend and teacher



msg=51278 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 00:10:59 | u=21

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

wm.annis

ayngar would be more fully ayngaru.  It's a short dative.



msg=51768 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 05:41:44 | u=1120

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

roger

A couple copy-edit probs
(nì-ftxavang is an ADV; nì-wotx: ADV-all; 'upxare-t: message-ACC; fu-t-a (need to break up if gloss is broken up); sweya: best-ADJ)

Otherwise,
Why analyze vay as FUT? That would mean the root is "v". I don't think that's possible, unless it's a contraction..
horen-ti-sì is plural; the root is koren



msg=52160 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 10:58:00 | u=2104

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Mirri

[quote author=roger link=topic=2821.msg51768#msg51768 date=1264225304]
A couple copy-edit probs
(nì-ftxavang is an ADV; nì-wotx: ADV-all; 'upxare-t: message-ACC; fu-t-a (need to break up if gloss is broken up); sweya: best-ADJ)

Otherwise,
Why analyze vay as FUT? That would mean the root is "v". I don't think that's possible, unless it's a contraction..
horen-ti-sì is plural; the root is koren
[/quote]

Thanks, fixed it all. Could you explain the horen-ti-sì thing to me? How is it plural?

Also, can you explain the red words, those are the ones that don't make sense to me.



msg=52225 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 11:46:45 | u=195

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

esoanem

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=2821.msg52160#msg52160 date=1264244280]
Thanks, fixed it all. Could you explain the horen-ti-sì thing to me? How is it plural?
[/quote]

It's a short plural of koren-ti-sì. Because ay- causes lenition it can be dropped.



msg=52240 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 11:59:40 | u=2104

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Mirri

[quote author=kawngä mungeyu link=topic=2821.msg52225#msg52225 date=1264247205]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=2821.msg52160#msg52160 date=1264244280]
Thanks, fixed it all. Could you explain the horen-ti-sì thing to me? How is it plural?
[/quote]

It's a short plural of koren-ti-sì. Because ay- causes lenition it can be dropped.
[/quote]

Oh yeah, that thing. One of the contributing factors, along with infixes, that makes Na'vi impossible to decipher  :P



msg=52362 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 13:29:01 | u=1120

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

roger

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=2821.msg52160#msg52160 date=1264244280]
Also, can you explain the red words, those are the ones that don't make sense to me.
[/quote]
Sure.
nìawnomum: no-one understands what the awn is. Most likely it's a contraction of some sort, and maybe there's an aynga in there or s.t.
awnga-r: awnga and ayoeng ("ayweng") are both contractions of *ayoenga. Awnga is a syllable shorter when inflectional endings are added.
'eylan sì karyu = 'eylan karyu-sì: "friend and teacher": like the adpositions, the 'and' can go before or after the noun.



msg=52396 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 13:50:37 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu

Here is my transcript. There are some (minor) differences to the one Mirri made, e. g. the genitive of pronouns is not just -yä, but always -eyä; furthermore as confirmed by Frommer, yawn is NOT the verb "to love", and tìkangkem cannot be broken down to *kangkem as the verb "work". There are some more little differences, so if you want to, please have a look.

---

Ayeylanur oeyä sì eylanur lì'fyayä leNa'vi nìwotx:
Ay-eylan-ur      o-eyä  sì    Ø-eylanur        lì'fya-yä          leNa'vi        nì-wotx:
PL-friend-DAT  1-GEN  and  PL-friend-DAT  language-GEN  ADJ-Na’vi    ADV-all

Oel ayngati kameie, ma oeyä eylan, ulte ayngaru seiyi irayo.
Oe-l    ay-nga-ti    kam<ei>e,        ma    o-eyä  Ø-eylan,  ulte  ay-nga-ru  s<eiy>i=irayo.
1-ERG  PL-2-ACC  see<APPROB>,  VOC  1-GEN  PL-friend,  and  PL-2-DAT  make<APPROB>=thanks.

Fpole' ayngal oer fìtxan nìftxavang a 'upxaret stolawm oel.
Fp<ol>e'      ay-nga-l    oe-r      fì-txan        nì-ftxavang    a        'upxare-t        st<ol>awm    oel   
send<PFV>  PL-2-ERG  1-DAT  PROX-much  ADV-passion  ATTR  message-ACC  hear<PFV>    1-ERG.

Lì'fyari leNa'vi oel 'efu ayngeyä tìyawnit.
Lì'fya-ri            le-Na'vi      oel      'efu  ay-ng-eyä  tìyawn-it.
language-TOP  ADJ-Na’vi    1-ERG  feel  PL-2-GEN    NMLZ-beloved-ACC.

Ulte omum oel futa tìfyawìntxuri oeyä perey aynga nìwotx.
Ulte  omum  oel      f=u-t-a                        tì-fyawìntxu-ri      o-eyä    p<er>ey          ay-nga  nì-wotx.
and  know    1-ERG  PROX=thing-ACC-ATTR  NMLZ-guide-TOP  1-GEN  wait<IPFV>  PL-2      ADV-all.

Spivaw oeti rutxe, ma oeyä eylan: oe new nìtxan ayngaru fyawivìntxu.
Sp<iv>aw                oe-ti    rutxe,  ma    o-eyä  Ø-eylan:  oe  new  nì-txan        ay-nga-ru  fyaw<iv>ìntxu.
believe<SUBJ:IUSS>  1-ACC  please,  VOC  1-GEN  PL-friend:  1  want  PROX-much  PL-2-DAT  guide<SUBJ>.
\



msg=52574 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 16:04:51 | u=664

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52396#msg52396 date=1264254637]
Here is my transcript. There are some (minor) differences to the one Mirri made, e. g. the genitive of pronouns is not just -yä, but always -eyä;

[/quote]

That's a little strange I think.  oe = I,  oeyä = my. So in that case it's only adding a -yä.  It changes the nga to nge when it attaches, but that should be marked a sound change rather than the cut off of the pronoun.

-Keyl



msg=52589 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 16:16:48 | u=2104

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Mirri

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2821.msg52574#msg52574 date=1264262691]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52396#msg52396 date=1264254637]
Here is my transcript. There are some (minor) differences to the one Mirri made, e. g. the genitive of pronouns is not just -yä, but always -eyä;

[/quote]

That's a little strange I think.  oe = I,  oeyä = my. So in that case it's only adding a -yä.  It changes the nga to nge when it attaches, but that should be marked a sound change rather than the cut off of the pronoun.

-Keyl
[/quote]

I think the point is that you cannot have oeeyä, so the duplicate e merges into a single one.



msg=52590 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 16:18:09 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu

[quote]That's a little strange I think.  oe = I,  oeyä = my. So in that case it's only adding a -yä.  It changes the nga to nge when it attaches, but that should be marked a sound change rather than the cut off of the pronoun.[/quote]

Well, maybe. But this sound-change appears regulary in all pronouns and only in pronouns.

So we get: oeyä, ngeyä, peyä.

In oeyä it could be just oe+yä.
In ngeyä it would change an "a" to "e": nga + yä > ngeyä.
In peyä it would change an "o" to "e": po + yä > peyä.

So this are different sounds all changed to "e" ... thus I think, -eyä could be seen also as genitive suffix used in pronouns rather than -yä as genitive suffix causing in pronouns (and only there!) the changing of every preceding sound to "e".

[quote]I think the point is that you cannot have oeeyä, so the duplicate e merges into a single one.
[/quote]

Yes, seems ok to me.



msg=52611 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 16:35:27 | u=664

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=2821.msg52589#msg52589 date=1264263408]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2821.msg52574#msg52574 date=1264262691]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52396#msg52396 date=1264254637]
Here is my transcript. There are some (minor) differences to the one Mirri made, e. g. the genitive of pronouns is not just -yä, but always -eyä;

[/quote]

That's a little strange I think.  oe = I,  oeyä = my. So in that case it's only adding a -yä.  It changes the nga to nge when it attaches, but that should be marked a sound change rather than the cut off of the pronoun.

-Keyl
[/quote]

I think the point is that you cannot have oeeyä, so the duplicate e merges into a single one.
[/quote]

Good point, although it still seems weird to me that the last letter gets taken away when *-eyä is added to the end of some pronouns, since this deletion doesn't happen anywhere else in the language.  I would still say it is a sound change, and not a different ending.

-Keyl



msg=52616 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 16:36:23 | u=2104

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Mirri

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52396#msg52396 date=1264254637]
Here is my transcript. There are some (minor) differences to the one Mirri made, e. g. the genitive of pronouns is not just -yä, but always -eyä; furthermore as confirmed by Frommer, yawn is NOT the verb "to love", and tìkangkem cannot be broken down to *kangkem as the verb "work". There are some more little differences, so if you want to, please have a look.

Ayeylanur oeyä sì eylanur lì'fyayä leNa'vi nìwotx:
Ay-eylan-ur      o-eyä   sì     Ø-eylanur        lì'fya-yä           leNa'vi        nì-wotx:
PL-friend-DAT   1-GEN  and  PL-friend-DAT   language-GEN   ADJ-Na’vi    ADV-all

[/quote]

I think I need a legend to decipher that  ???
Half of it is in German and there's grammar terms there I've never seen before. (APPROB, NMLZ?)

I'm curious as how you conclude that ayeylan and eylan are both plural? There's no lenition there.



msg=52622 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 16:39:26 | u=21

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

wm.annis

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=2821.msg52616#msg52616 date=1264264583]I'm curious as how you conclude that ayeylan and eylan are both plural? There's no lenition there.[/quote]

The word is 'eylan — note the glottal stop at the start.  Lenited glottal stop disappears.



msg=52627 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 16:43:19 | u=2104

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Mirri

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=2821.msg52611#msg52611 date=1264264527]

Good point, although it still seems weird to me that the last letter gets taken away when *-eyä is added to the end of some pronouns, since this deletion doesn't happen anywhere else in the language.  I would still say it is a sound change, and not a different ending.

[/quote]

I agree it's more of a sound change on pronouns. Normally when vowels clash in other words, Na'vi tends to add another one instead of removing any.



msg=52632 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 16:46:33 | u=2104

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Mirri

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2821.msg52622#msg52622 date=1264264766]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=2821.msg52616#msg52616 date=1264264583]I'm curious as how you conclude that ayeylan and eylan are both plural? There's no lenition there.[/quote]

The word is 'eylan — note the glottal stop at the start.  Lenited glottal stop disappears.
[/quote]

That's just cheating. How do you hear a glottal stop at the beginning of a word? That's like inserting silence into more silence.



msg=52645 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 17:02:07 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu

[quote]Half of it is in German and there's grammar terms there I've never seen before. (APPROB, NMLZ?)
[/quote]

Sorry, I did this in my mothertongue and tried to change all German for this post. Will relook about it after dinner to remove all left German.

The abbreviations:
APPROB = approbative = positive attitude
NMLZ = nominalized



msg=52649 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 17:03:29 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu

[quote]That's just cheating. How do you hear a glottal stop at the beginning of a word? That's like inserting silence into more silence.
[/quote]

Please, read Frommer Language Log article. He clearly states, that lenitation for the glottis-sound results in disappearing of this sound.
Besides that: the glottis-stop isn't silent!



msg=52652 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 17:05:07 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu


@Keyl

[quote]since this deletion doesn't happen anywhere else in the language. [/quote]

Deletion of vocals in compounds appear a lot in Na'vi!
If you want to, I'll give you examples (after my dinner).



msg=52666 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 17:19:41 | u=664

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52652#msg52652 date=1264266307]

@Keyl

[quote]since this deletion doesn't happen anywhere else in the language. [/quote]

Deletion of vocals in compounds appear a lot in Na'vi!
If you want to, I'll give you examples (after my dinner).

[/quote]

Show me some examples with case endings. :)

-Keyl

EDIT: To clarify, I know it happens in other places, but not with case endings as far as I know.  I should have been more specific instead of saying "anywhere else".



msg=52683 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 17:35:45 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu

@Mirri
[quote]Half of it is in German [/quote]

Well ... fixed all left German words. Found two (in numbers: 2).
Do not know exactly how to think about your complaint, Mirri. I mean: I didn't want to annoy people with my transcript or so. I just wanted to provide help and therefore posted my version. Since I did it in my mothertongue, I had to change quite a lot of words and to do a lot of reformatting. (= time and work)
I thought, my transcript would be of interest for you. But instead what I'm receiving is a complain about "half of it" being in German.  :-\\
Ok. If this is the way good-will is granted, then I'll stop contributing things to non-German-speaking people.

@Keyl
[quote]Show me some examples with case endings. [/quote]

THIS I can not do. But this is no proof, that it's not possible in the one case of -eyä in pronouns.
As said above: I think it's more likely, that the ending is -eyä, than that the ending is -yä, urging any vocal in front of it to be "e" (and this just in pronouns).




msg=52710 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 17:57:17 | u=2104

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Mirri

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52683#msg52683 date=1264268145]
@Mirri
[quote]Half of it is in German [/quote]

Well ... fixed all left German words. Found two (in numbers: 2).
Do not know exactly how to think about your complaint, Mirri. I mean: I didn't want to annoy people with my transcript or so. I just wanted to provide help and therefore posted my version. Since I did it in my mothertongue, I had to change quite a lot of words and to do a lot of reformatting. (= time and work)
I thought, my transcript would be of interest for you. But instead what I'm receiving is a complain about "half of it" being in German.  :-\\
Ok. If this is the way good-will is granted, then I'll stop contributing things to non-German-speaking people.
[/quote]

Tsap'alute, oeyä tsmukan.

It wasn't meant like that. I just had to give up understanding it, mostly due to the grammar terms. I didn't know if it was in German or what, but evidently it's my own ignorance. For instance, I've only ever heard of <ei> is the laudative.
Do you know if there a list of all these terms somewhere you can refer me to?



msg=52719 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 18:02:17 | u=114

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Is.

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=2821.msg52632#msg52632 date=1264265193]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2821.msg52622#msg52622 date=1264264766]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=2821.msg52616#msg52616 date=1264264583]I'm curious as how you conclude that ayeylan and eylan are both plural? There's no lenition there.[/quote]

The word is 'eylan — note the glottal stop at the start.  Lenited glottal stop disappears.
[/quote]

That's just cheating. How do you hear a glottal stop at the beginning of a word? That's like inserting silence into more silence.

[/quote]

Seems like a valid point to me.



msg=52735 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 18:13:38 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu

Ok. I understand, that the abbreviations might be a problem.
Unfortunately there is no universal standard with these abbreviations used everywhere the same way.
I'll give you a list of all abbreviations I used (they are generally accepted in German linguistics, most of them are also used international, also by the English Wikipedia article about Na'vi, e. g. the APPROB is also found there).
Besides: These abbreviation are mostly derived from the English names of the grammatical phenomens, but nevertheless they are used by us Germans too.

Here are all of them (in alphabetical order):

1 = 1st person
2 = 2nd person
3 = 3nd person
ACC = accusative case
ADJ = adjectivation
ADV = adverbial
APPROB = approbative = positive attitude
ATTR = attributive
DAT = dative case
DIST = distant demonstrative
ERG = ergative case
EXIST = existence indicating verb
FUT = future tense
GEN = genitive case
IPFV = imperfective aspect
INCL = inclusive
IUSS = iussive (demand)
NEG = negation
NMLZ = nominalized
NP = nomen proprium (name of person, town, ...)
OPT = optative (wish)
PEJ = pejorative = negative attitude
PFV = perfective aspect
PL = plural
PROX = proximate demonstrative
PST = past tense
SUBJ = subjunctive
TOP = topic
VOC = vocative

@Is.
[quote]Seems like a valid point to me.
[/quote]

It isn't. Please, read Frommer's language log article!
Besides: The glottal stop isn't silent.



msg=52752 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 18:22:19 | u=664

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52683#msg52683 date=1264268145]
@Keyl
[quote]Show me some examples with case endings. [/quote]

THIS I can not do. But this is no proof, that it's not possible in the one case of -eyä in pronouns.
As said above: I think it's more likely, that the ending is -eyä, than that the ending is -yä, urging any vocal in front of it to be "e" (and this just in pronouns).

[/quote]

Yeah, there is no real way to prove things either way other than ask Dr. Frommer.  But to get back to my original point o-eyä is a strange way to break it up, since o != I.  I would go with oe-eyä or o(e)-eyä, if I were breaking it up the way you are, since the root is oe.  Just my opinion. :)

-Keyl



msg=52760 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 18:24:00 | u=21

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

wm.annis

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52590#msg52590 date=1264263489]
[quote]That's a little strange I think.  oe = I,  oeyä = my. So in that case it's only adding a -yä.  It changes the nga to nge when it attaches, but that should be marked a sound change rather than the cut off of the pronoun.[/quote]

Well, maybe. But this sound-change appears regulary in all pronouns and only in pronouns.[/quote]

In the Language Log [url=http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1977]guest post[/url] Frommer says that "changes to the noun base sometimes occur with the Genitive."  I suppose it could be a slip of the tongue, but he didn't limit such changes to pronouns.  I do not think it's safe to posit a new ending -eyä when he has told us the stem can change.



msg=52777 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 18:28:18 | u=664

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=2821.msg52760#msg52760 date=1264271040]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52590#msg52590 date=1264263489]
[quote]That's a little strange I think.  oe = I,  oeyä = my. So in that case it's only adding a -yä.  It changes the nga to nge when it attaches, but that should be marked a sound change rather than the cut off of the pronoun.[/quote]

Well, maybe. But this sound-change appears regulary in all pronouns and only in pronouns.[/quote]

In the Language Log [url=http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1977]guest post[/url] Frommer says that "changes to the noun base sometimes occur with the Genitive."  I suppose it could be a slip of the tongue, but he didn't limit such changes to pronouns.  I do not think it's safe to posit a new ending -eyä when he has told us the stem can change.
[/quote]

Vindicated! :)  Thanks William, I need to re-read that post again, now that I've had a few weeks with the language.

-Keyl



msg=52786 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 18:32:22 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu


Ok. Then so it is. Thank you, William!



msg=52887 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 19:19:16 | u=54

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Tiger

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52649#msg52649 date=1264266209]
Please, read Frommer Language Log article. He clearly states, that lenitation for the glottis-sound results in disappearing of this sound.
Besides that: the glottis-stop isn't silent!

[/quote]Technically speaking, the glottal stop IS silent, that's the whole point.

But the noticible change in sound to the leading/following vowel is definitely not.



msg=52904 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 19:30:46 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu

No, it's not silent. It's a (voiceless) sound. You can produce the glottal stop without emitting vocals and it is hearable. In German this sound is called "Knacklaut" (crackle-sound?). Of course the glottal stop affects the sound of a word with a following vocal, but it's also a sound by itself and - as said - you can try to produce a sequence of just this sound (without any vocals around it) and you can very well hear the crackling, which is produced by the air, when it is released after the glottis opens again.



msg=52994 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 20:31:19 | u=54

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Tiger

That seems like it's splitting hairs...  I wouldn't consider that puff of air part of the glottal stop (Of course I'm also not a linguist) but rather an unvoiced vowel stand-in.

However it might be useful as a learning aid to teach people about glottal stops at the beginning of words.



msg=53022 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 20:42:55 | u=401

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

Harìghawnu

Sorry, I don't want to split hairs. And maybe, I wasn't clear enough. The sound you hear is NOT the puff of the air, but is produced by the glottis strings, when they get "vibrations" from the pressured air. The sound is produced by the vibrating glottis strings, not by the air itself. It's not a "puff"-sound, it's a "crackle"-sound.



msg=53144 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 21:43:49 | u=28

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

wisnij

It doesn't help matters that a native speaker of English may well pronounce a glottal stop at the beginning of a word with an initial vowel.  If such a person tries to say eveng, they may actually be producing 'eveng without realizing it, because that isn't a contrastive feature in English.  And it's likewise difficult to distinguish between hearing the two.



msg=53234 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 22:48:16 | u=1120

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=2821.msg52887#msg52887 date=1264274356]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52649#msg52649 date=1264266209]
Please, read Frommer Language Log article. He clearly states, that lenitation for the glottis-sound results in disappearing of this sound.
Besides that: the glottis-stop isn't silent!

[/quote]Technically speaking, the glottal stop IS silent, that's the whole point.

But the noticible change in sound to the leading/following vowel is definitely not.
[/quote]
Technically speaking, /p t k/ are silent too. They are all only detectable in their effect on surrounding vowels and it their release, and in final position they don't even have the release.



msg=53244 | topic=2821 | board=99 | time=2010-01-23 22:54:10 | u=1120

Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.

roger

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=2821.msg52735#msg52735 date=1264270418]
Ok. I understand, that the abbreviations might be a problem.

Here are all of them (in alphabetical order):
[...]
[/quote]
Mirri, in English you'll often see JUS for "IUSS" (the "jussive"), SJV for "subjunctive" (people often use SUBJ (or SUB) for "subject"), and IMPV for IPFV ("imperfective").

In the WP article, the abbreviations should link to the appropriate article, and in the intro, most of those articles repeat the abbreviation and link to a much longer list of common glossing terms. But it looks like Na'rìghawnu has it covered for Na'vi.



msg=56604 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 18:27:49 | u=132

Frommerian Email

Taronyu

I asked Frommer some questions. And he responded. Here they are:

§ § § § § § § § § §

Kaltxì nìmun, ma Taronyu.

See below for some answers.

[quote=Taronyu]In your Language Log, you show in the trapezium that [a] is the low back vowel, in contrast to [æ]. Did you mean to say [ɑ]? I am aware that you use an old American system.[/quote]

I meant [a], a low central vowel; essentially the corresponding vowel in Spanish and Italian, or in the standard American pronunciation of 'hot.' So you're right: phonetically it's not really back.

[quote=Taronyu]Is transitivity lexically marked: you've shown that 'promise' is ditransitive in the guide, but what about the other words? Will you be showing us how to do this soon?[/quote]

Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.

[quote=Taronyu]I've noticed in a shot of a script that you stress monosyllabic words when they have an inflection (and therefore are polysyllabic), but not otherwise. Should all monosyllabic words be stressed normally?[/quote]

Yes indeed. I underlined the stressed syllables in polysyllabic words for the actors, so they could pronounce their lines correctly. I've done that in the glossary too for all polysyllabic words.

The rule for inflected verbs is that whatever vowel is stressed in the root keeps its stress in the inflected form. So for example, the root for hunt, as you know, is taron, stress on the first syllable. So all the inflected forms retain stress on the original a of the root: tivaron, tolaron, tayarängon, etc. Cf. pängkxo "chat, converse," where the stress on the ultima. The stress stays there in the inflected forms: pivängkxo, polängkxo, payängkxängo.

[quote=Taronyu]If a verb is understood to be transitive (depending on your answer above), when the direct object is replaced by a verb phrase, is the subject still marked as ergative? Essentially, which is more correct: Oe new pivlltxe or Oel new pivlltxe?[/quote]

Good question.

First note that for "can" and "must," the subject is considered intransitive:

Oe tsun kivä. 'I can go.' (NOT *Oel tsun kivä.)
Oe zene kivä. 'I must go.' (NOT *Oel zene kivä.)

"Want" MAY follow the same pattern:

Oe new kivä. (That is, it patterns like a modal.)

But since want, unlike can and must, is a transitive verb, there's an alternate pattern:

Oel new futa (= fì'ut a) kivä.

And you also have sentences like:

Oel new futa Taronyu kivä. "I want Taronyu to go."

So in the sentences you asked about, Oe new pivlltxe is fine. In one with oel, though, insert futa.

[quote=Taronyu]Is sänume indicative of a - nomilinalizer to show the instrument of the verb?[/quote]

The - prefix is a bit of a loose end. So far I only have one example of it in the lexicon: nume "learn" vs. sänume "teaching, instruction." You're right: I was thinking of it as something like an instrumental affix: instruction is the thing BY MEANS OF WHICH you learn. On that basis, since mun'i is the verb "cut," sämun'i could be a word for a general cutting instrument. I'll need to think more about that, however, since I'm not sure these two cases are comparable. In the second case, you have a concrete instrument, which must be present in order to implement the verb. With nume, though, you can learn by other means than teaching: from experience, from trial and error, etc. So should sänume refer to any means whatsoever of learning something? I'm not sure yet. Thanks for the question!


No problem if you share any of this.

BTW, let's take a look at your sentence again:

(1) Oel new pivlltxe nìNa'vi mì oeyä letrra tìrey, (2) slä oel tsun pivey (3) trrit a ngat taying (oe new tìying!) ayoe nì'ul aylì'u!

(1) and (2) are virtually perfect: just change oel to oe in both cases. I like letrr for daily! I'll add that to the glossary, with RL in the Source column. :-)

(3), though, needs a little help. Are you awaiting "the day that you will give us more words?" If so, the verb for "give" is tìng, so it should be:

trrit a nga tayìng (or, hopefully, tìyìng) ayoer(u) aylì'ut nì'ul.

But if I've misinterpreted you, please let me know.

Hope that helps!

P.S. You know who's awesome? Frommer is awesome. -Taronyu.



msg=56648 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 18:48:17 | u=1244

Re: Frommerian Email

Eight

poan nawma tutean livu lam

Thanks for sharing mate.



msg=56653 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 18:51:13 | u=2211

Re: Frommerian Email

Txaklan

I just LOVE this guy. He's so kind and it's plain that he likes getting in touch with us.  :)

Most people involved in such a big project would ignore fan e-mails or send a standardized answer, but he actually answered to each and every point of your e-mail.

He's a god.



msg=56686 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 19:24:43 | u=4

Re: Frommerian Email

zombat

excellent. I'm really happy sä got cleared up.



msg=56690 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 19:25:31 | u=2788

Re: Frommerian Email

Lance R. Casey

Great to get something like this nìyey ta meseyri pa'liyä as Roger so cleverly put it! :)

A couple of things stand out to me:

Regarding the issue of transitivity, there's another clue sitting right there in the example phrase. Pey wait is used intransitively in the letter (nìaynga oe perey nìteng like you, I too am waiting), but here it is "made" transitive simply by adding an accusative (oe tsun pivey trrit I can await the day). This is neither a huge revelation nor a surprising one, but it serves to remind us not to be too English-centric, where we sometimes need to modify the verb in some way to get the transitive meaning.

Regarding the recent discussion about nì-modified words I instigated, that same phrase is of some interest. Just by looking at it and comparing with the translation, it might be tempting to posit an adjectival relationship in nì'ul aylì'u (as more words), but the lack of an attributive marker is telling. Again the English may be more ambiguous than it seems at first glance, so that a more literal rendering would be "you will give us words to a greater degree". Thoughts?



msg=56711 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 19:44:25 | u=132

Re: Frommerian Email

Taronyu

Oh yeah! Also:

§ § § § § § § § § § § §

At the end of my previous e-mail:

Let's make that--


trrit a NGAL tayìng (or, hopefully, tìyìng) ayoer(u) aylì'ut nì'ul.


Kxeyeyri tsap'alute sengi oe. [kxeyey = mistake, error]


Frommer. (What a dude. - T)



msg=56714 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 19:45:36 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

Added to the Canon.  [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Private_Correspondence_With_Paul_Frommer]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Private_Correspondence_With_Paul_Frommer[/url]

Thanks for sharing!

  - Eri



msg=56722 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 19:52:23 | u=365

Re: Frommerian Email

Doolio

so, if there's no direct object in accusative, subject should stay in nominative?

oe kame - i 'see'
oel ngati kame - i 'see' you



msg=56726 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 19:53:55 | u=664

Re: Frommerian Email

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3033.msg56711#msg56711 date=1264448665]
Kxeyeyri tsap'alute sengi oe. [kxeyey = mistake, error]

[/quote]

So <eng> is the evidential?!?!?

I forget, the only other place we've seen this is in to apologize...

-Keyl



msg=56729 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 19:55:16 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3033.msg56604#msg56604 date=1264444069]
[quote]
I like letrr for daily! I'll add that to the glossary, with RL in the Source column. :-)
[/quote]
P.S. You know who's awesome? Frommer is awesome. -Taronyu.
[/quote]

You just inherited a little bit of awesomeness.

  - Eri



msg=56732 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 19:57:33 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3033.msg56604#msg56604 date=1264444069]
[quote]
The rule for inflected verbs is that whatever vowel is stressed in the root keeps its stress in the inflected form. So for example, the root for hunt, as you know, is taron, stress on the first syllable. So all the inflected forms retain stress on the original a of the root: tivaron, tolaron, tayarängon, etc. Cf. pängkxo "chat, converse," where the stress on the ultima. The stress stays there in the inflected forms: pivängkxo, polängkxo, payängkxängo.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Did Frommer's email indicate stresses in this paragraph?

  - Eri



msg=56737 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 19:59:30 | u=132

Re: Frommerian Email

Taronyu

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3033.msg56732#msg56732 date=1264449453]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3033.msg56604#msg56604 date=1264444069]
[quote]
The rule for inflected verbs is that whatever vowel is stressed in the root keeps its stress in the inflected form. So for example, the root for hunt, as you know, is taron, stress on the first syllable. So all the inflected forms retain stress on the original a of the root: tivaron, tolaron, tayarängon, etc. Cf. pängkxo "chat, converse," where the stress on the ultima. The stress stays there in the inflected forms: pivängkxo, polängkxo, payängkxängo.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Did Frommer's email indicate stresses in this paragraph?

  - Eri

[/quote]

Unfortunately, no. I think the formatting he used messed up, there were a lot of unicode boxes in my email for apostrophes.



msg=56780 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 20:31:59 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

Added words and sentences to the Corpus: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#Correspondence_with_Taronyu]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#Correspondence_with_Taronyu[/url]

  - Eri



msg=56786 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 20:39:06 | u=465

Re: Frommerian Email

Hysvear

Awesome!



msg=56816 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 21:09:23 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

[quote author=Doolio link=topic=3033.msg56722#msg56722 date=1264449143]
so, if there's no direct object in accusative, subject should stay in nominative?

oe kame - i 'see'
oel ngati kame - i 'see' you
[/quote]

We don't know that yet.  We only know about can, must, and want, and those are special (they're "modal verbs").  Of the three, two are always intransitive when used in the construction "can/must (some verb)" and thus the subjects stay in the subjective case (no case marker).  Want can use the same construction and thus be intransitive, or it can use a different construction and be transitive - "want (some verb)" vs. "want that (some verb)", both of which mean the same thing.  Use the subjective with the first, ergative with the second.

This has no direct applicability to kame or any other verb.  We still don't know how transitivity works for verbs that might be either transitive or intransitive, like "begin" (and maybe "See").

  - Eri



msg=56841 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 21:32:13 | u=195

Re: Frommerian Email

esoanem

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3033.msg56816#msg56816 date=1264453763]
[quote author=Doolio link=topic=3033.msg56722#msg56722 date=1264449143]
so, if there's no direct object in accusative, subject should stay in nominative?

oe kame - i 'see'
oel ngati kame - i 'see' you
[/quote]

We don't know that yet.  We only know about can, must, and want, and those are special (they're "modal verbs").  Of the three, two are always intransitive when used in the construction "can/must (some verb)" and thus the subjects stay in the subjective case (no case marker).  Want can use the same construction and thus be intransitive, or it can use a different construction and be transitive - "want (some verb)" vs. "want that (some verb)", both of which mean the same thing.  Use the subjective with the first, ergative with the second.

This has no direct applicability to kame or any other verb.  We still don't know how transitivity works for verbs that might be either transitive or intransitive, like "begin" (and maybe "See").

  - Eri

[/quote]

See Taronyu's second question, Frommer makes it clear that for some verbs it is lexically bound and others syntactically. As to see makes sense generally, it's transitivity (and therefore whether it needs -l) is syntactically bound.

Therefore oe kame (I see) is correct.



msg=56872 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 21:56:53 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3033.msg56841#msg56841 date=1264455133]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3033.msg56816#msg56816 date=1264453763]
[quote author=Doolio link=topic=3033.msg56722#msg56722 date=1264449143]
so, if there's no direct object in accusative, subject should stay in nominative?

oe kame - i 'see'
oel ngati kame - i 'see' you
[/quote]

We don't know that yet.  We only know about can, must, and want, and those are special (they're "modal verbs").  Of the three, two are always intransitive when used in the construction "can/must (some verb)" and thus the subjects stay in the subjective case (no case marker).  Want can use the same construction and thus be intransitive, or it can use a different construction and be transitive - "want (some verb)" vs. "want that (some verb)", both of which mean the same thing.  Use the subjective with the first, ergative with the second.

This has no direct applicability to kame or any other verb.  We still don't know how transitivity works for verbs that might be either transitive or intransitive, like "begin" (and maybe "See").

  - Eri
[/quote]
See Taronyu's second question, Frommer makes it clear that for some verbs it is lexically bound and others syntactically.
[/quote]

You know, I've read all the discussion about transitivity, and I still have no idea what people mean when they say "syntactically bound transitivity".  If I understand correctly, "lexically bound transitivity" means that some words are defined in the lexicon as being transitive or intransitive.  Syntactically here means... what?

In the bit quoted above, Frommer says that some words do not need to be marked for transitivity in the lexicon because their semantics (i.e. what they mean) clearly show that they are transitive or intransitive.  That doesn't mean they aren't lexically transitive or lexically intransitive, it means that their transitivity is obvious from their meaning and so he hasn't bothered to annotate them.  The lexicon defines the meaning, though, so it's still the lexicon that is determining whether they are Vtr or Vin.

As for words whose transitivity is not clear from their meaning, Frommer says he's annotated them in the lexicon (he just hasn't told us what they are yet).  So those words will also have lexically bound transitivity.

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what folks here mean by "lexical".

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3033.msg56841#msg56841 date=1264455133]
As to see makes sense generally, it's transitivity (and therefore whether it needs -l) is syntactically bound.  Therefore oe kame (I see) is correct.
[/quote]

You're making an assumption here that's not (yet) supported by the canon.  Unless you can point me to an attestation of oe kame... ?

Maybe it's correct.  Maybe it's not.  We don't know.  We're hoping to find out soon.

  - Eri



msg=56881 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 22:05:21 | u=21

Re: Frommerian Email

wm.annis

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3033.msg56872#msg56872 date=1264456613]Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what folks here mean by "lexical".[/quote]

I'm afraid so.  You defined it above, then said it wasn't the same as lexical transitivity.  :)

When I say "lexical transitivity," at least, I mean is the transitivity determined by the verb alone.  Clause-level or semantic transitivity means you can't assign transitivity until a verb gets used — you need the rest of the sentence to be sure.  English, of course, has rather a lot of the latter ("move," for example).



msg=56898 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 22:18:52 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3033.msg56881#msg56881 date=1264457121]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3033.msg56872#msg56872 date=1264456613]Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what folks here mean by "lexical".[/quote]

I'm afraid so.  You defined it above, then said it wasn't the same as lexical transitivity.  :)
[/quote]

I don't see where I did that.  Can you show me?

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3033.msg56881#msg56881 date=1264457121]
When I say "lexical transitivity," at least, I mean is the transitivity determined by the verb alone.  Clause-level or semantic transitivity means you can't assign transitivity until a verb gets used — you need the rest of the sentence to be sure.
[/quote]

Yep, that's what I thought.  And what I meant to say, however poorly.  Still not clear on "syntactical" transitivity (lexical I get, semantic I get... syntactical?)

  - Eri



msg=56918 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 22:32:16 | u=195

Re: Frommerian Email

esoanem

A syntactically transitive verb is one that has taken a direct object in a specific sentence.

This is in contrast to lexically transitive verb that is always transitive no matter what the sentence.



Frommer said that only some verbs were lexically transitive (implying that the default position is syntactically transitive) and so kame is likely to be syntactic with oe kame being correct.



msg=56934 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 22:40:25 | u=21

Re: Frommerian Email

wm.annis

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3033.msg56898#msg56898 date=1264457932]Yep, that's what I thought.  And what I meant to say, however poorly.  Still not clear on "syntactical" transitivity (lexical I get, semantic I get... syntactical?)[/quote]

Well, I know I have been a bit loosey-goosey with the terminology, while I groped my to succinct terms for the nature of my transitivity confusion.  Perhaps others have, too.  ;)



msg=56958 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 22:53:26 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3033.msg56918#msg56918 date=1264458736]
A syntactically transitive verb is one that has taken a direct object in a specific sentence.
[/quote]

Thanks.

Is there a difference between syntactically transitive and semantically transitive?

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3033.msg56918#msg56918 date=1264458736]
Frommer said that only some verbs were lexically transitive (implying that the default position is syntactically transitive) and so kame is likely to be syntactic with oe kame being correct.
[/quote]

He did not say this.  You are over-reading his email.

He said that some verbs are obviously always transitive, some verbs are obviously always intransitive, and some verbs are neither obviously always transitive nor obviously always intransitive.  He did not say that those verbs are sometimes transitive and sometimes intransitive; he said it was not obvious what their transitivity is, and so therefore he will have to tell us what their transitivity is.

Now, when he tells us, he may tell us that such-and-such verb (which was until that moment previously unclear) is in fact always transitive.  Or always intransitive.  In which case, we will then know that that verb is lexically transitive (or intransitive).  He may in fact provide an always-transitive or always-intransitive lexical definition for every verb.  Which would make your statement "for some verbs it is lexically bound and others syntactically" wrong.

On the other hand, when he tells us, he may tell us that such-and-such verb is sometimes transitive and sometimes intransitive.  If he tells us that for at least one verb, that would make your statement right.

But we don't know what he's going to tell us yet.

Saying that "the default position is syntactically transitive" is completely unsupported.  You may be right, you may be wrong, but you don't know.  Saying that his email implies such a thing is subjective interpretation, which we should avoid.

  - Eri



msg=56961 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 22:57:42 | u=1921

Re: Frommerian Email

pbhead

ok... wiat.. i am confused about futa... is it fi'ut-a? but... i dont see 'ut in the vocab section/pocket book...

or is it fi'u-t-a so... this thing (transitive patient)?

???



msg=56968 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 23:03:41 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

I think I may have discovered the source of our disagreement.

[quote]
Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.
[/quote]

I interpreted the highlighted sentence as meaning "For verbs like 'begin', you (Na'vi students) will have to be told (by me, Frommer) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

I suspect tìkawngä mungeyu interpreted it as "For verbs like 'begin', you (the listener or reader of a particular sentence) will have to be told (by the rest of the words in the sentence) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

Is that it?

  - Eri



msg=57012 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-25 23:37:57 | u=132

Re: Frommerian Email

Taronyu

[quote author=pbhead link=topic=3033.msg56961#msg56961 date=1264460262]
ok... wiat.. i am confused about futa... is it fi'ut-a? but... i dont see 'ut in the vocab section/pocket book...

or is it fi'u-t-a so... this thing (transitive patient)?

???
[/quote]

fì'u-t a
this-ACCUSATIVE which.that

that which

EG:

I see that which I see.
Oel kame fì'ut a (= futa) oe kivame (assumedly)



msg=57100 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 01:23:02 | u=365

Re: Frommerian Email

Doolio

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3033.msg56968#msg56968 date=1264460621]
I think I may have discovered the source of our disagreement.

[quote]
Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.
[/quote]

I interpreted the highlighted sentence as meaning "For verbs like 'begin', you (Na'vi students) will have to be told (by me, Frommer) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

I suspect tìkawngä mungeyu interpreted it as "For verbs like 'begin', you (the listener or reader of a particular sentence) will have to be told (by the rest of the words in the sentence) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

Is that it?

  - Eri

[/quote]

well, i would go with the latter:)

"the movie begins" - intransitive

"i begin a new life" - transitive

same with "end":

"his life ends" - intransitive
"end this, now!" - transitive



msg=57104 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 01:26:10 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

[quote author=Doolio link=topic=3033.msg57100#msg57100 date=1264468982]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3033.msg56968#msg56968 date=1264460621]
I think I may have discovered the source of our disagreement.

[quote]
Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.
[/quote]

I interpreted the highlighted sentence as meaning "For verbs like 'begin', you (Na'vi students) will have to be told (by me, Frommer) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

I suspect tìkawngä mungeyu interpreted it as "For verbs like 'begin', you (the listener or reader of a particular sentence) will have to be told (by the rest of the words in the sentence) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

Is that it?

  - Eri

[/quote]

well, i would go with the latter:)

[/quote]

I don't think that's what Frommer meant in his email.

  - Eri



msg=57112 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 01:36:28 | u=54

Re: Frommerian Email

Tiger

I don't think it is either.  If he meant that you had to be told by the speaker (By means of case endings), why would he go onto say that for those he has indicated the type in he complete glossary?  If it could be used either way at the whim of the speaker, why would he need to indicate anything?

Context, context, context.  It's as important in understanding meaning as the words.

"i begin a new life" - transitive
Oe sngä'i (fa/ìlä/ka/mì - not sure which would be appropriate) tìrey a-(adj for new)
Intransitive
Oe sngä'i r<iv?>ey - I begin living
Intransitive

same with "end":

"end this, now!" - transitive
Ummmm...
Fì'u (Verb for end) set! - intransitive

Try saying that sentence in English with a subject and see how much sense it makes.  It's just the imperative of "This ends".  (But he didn't give "end" as an example there.)



msg=57135 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 01:58:13 | u=2325

Re: Frommerian Email

suomichris

Yeah, I interpret Frommer's email to mean that, for words which are ambitransitive in English, the glossary will need to specify transitivity for the Na'vi verb.  See also words like "dance."



msg=57146 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:07:08 | u=54

Re: Frommerian Email

Tiger

Oe ke sreu fa kea makareyna
vs
Oel ke sreu kea makareynat

(I don't dance the Macarena)



msg=57151 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:10:28 | u=2325

Re: Frommerian Email

suomichris

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3033.msg57146#msg57146 date=1264471628]
Oe ke sreu fa kea makareyna
vs
Oel ke sreu kea makareynat

(I don't dance the Macarena)
[/quote]I'm not sure what you're getting at here...  If dance is transitive, the second is correct.  Regardless of whether dance is transitive or intransitive, though, first one is wrong.  If it WERE (English subjunctive!) intransitive, it would likely be something like:

Oe ke sreu nìmakareyna.

Which, really, is awesome.



msg=57155 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:11:22 | u=1011

Re: Frommerian Email

Kiliyä

Did Frommer mention a... glossary?  *cha-ching!*



msg=57157 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:12:35 | u=2325

Re: Frommerian Email

suomichris

!!! Also, people who were wondering about datives: note that Frommer marks the (u) in the dative as optional there....

So, we have some places where (u) is optional.  I bet, though, that it is okay to use it everywhere, even if it sounds weird/formal (perhaps like a non-native English speaker saying "He is" all of the time, instead of the more natural "he's")....?



msg=57174 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:22:27 | u=54

Re: Frommerian Email

Tiger

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3033.msg57151#msg57151 date=1264471828]
I'm not sure what you're getting at here...  If dance is transitive, the second is correct.  Regardless of whether dance is transitive or intransitive, though, first one is wrong.  If it WERE (English subjunctive!) intransitive, it would likely be something like:

Oe ke sreu nìmakareyna.

Which, really, is awesome.
[/quote]Heh, that never actually occurred to me to use the adverb...  That's still one place my English mind keeps trying to use adpositions on...  I've gotten it through my head that languages can be used that way, and I struggle to find the best adposition to fit, without always considering other grammatical structures.  But that makes much more sense than how I worded it.

I was merely exemplifying how it could be either, but apparently badly since one of them wouldn't be right. :/



msg=57181 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:27:22 | u=1011

Re: Frommerian Email

Kiliyä

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3033.msg57157#msg57157 date=1264471955]
!!! Also, people who were wondering about datives: note that Frommer marks the (u) in the dative as optional there....

So, we have some places where (u) is optional.  I bet, though, that it is okay to use it everywhere, even if it sounds weird/formal (perhaps like a non-native English speaker saying "He is" all of the time, instead of the more natural "he's")....?
[/quote]
That had been my thought on it, although I didn't weigh in on the discussion.  It's just natural euphony according to the tastes of the speaker.



msg=57189 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:30:21 | u=132

Re: Frommerian Email

Taronyu

I just want to say this:

You guys are great. I post an email that I thought would make a few of the disputes nulled, and what do you all do? Make 45 posts on how we're just as badly off as ever.

Keep up the good work. We're all rooting for you.

That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)



msg=57191 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:30:48 | u=2325

Re: Frommerian Email

suomichris

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3033.msg57174#msg57174 date=1264472547]
I was merely exemplifying how it could be either, but apparently badly since one of them wouldn't be right. :/[/quote]Well, what you might have said (if I understand you) is that, if dance is transitive in Na'vi, we could have:

Oel sreu makareynat.
OR
Oe sreu.

If it is intransitive, though, we don't yet know what the possibilities would be.



msg=57193 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:31:26 | u=2325

Re: Frommerian Email

suomichris

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3033.msg57189#msg57189 date=1264473021]
I just want to say this:

You guys are great. I post an email that I thought would make a few of the disputes nulled, and what do you all do? Make 45 posts on how we're just as badly off as ever.

Keep up the good work. We're all rooting for you.

That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)
[/quote]Mlltxe was one that came up in a previous discussion....



msg=57202 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:41:49 | u=54

Re: Frommerian Email

Tiger

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3033.msg57191#msg57191 date=1264473048]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3033.msg57174#msg57174 date=1264472547]
I was merely exemplifying how it could be either, but apparently badly since one of them wouldn't be right. :/[/quote]Well, what you might have said (if I understand you) is that, if dance is transitive in Na'vi, we could have:

Oel sreu makareynat.
OR
Oe sreu.

If it is intransitive, though, we don't yet know what the possibilities would be.
[/quote]Yeah if it's transitive it's probably ambitransitive the same way "hunt" is.

For intransitive I was merely expressing how it could still express the same thing as it could when transitive, even if I chose a poor example of such a way.

Edit: Do you think it's possible that the adverb could be used with mllte too?  We know nì+personal pronoun can be used for like (It's in the SG vocab as that) so...  Oe mllte nìnga...  I agree like you?  Probably not, but it's a thought since I'm still trying to figure out how what we have grammar wise could be used to express who you agree with.



msg=57209 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:48:07 | u=21

Re: Frommerian Email

wm.annis

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3033.msg57189#msg57189 date=1264473021]That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)
[/quote]

rikx!  "I move" vs. "I move the branch."  Is it as simple as oe rikx vs. vulit oel rikx?



msg=57210 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 02:50:09 | u=1011

Re: Frommerian Email

Kiliyä

Can you ask him some vocab questions?

Like... to find?



msg=57240 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 03:33:04 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian Email

Erimeyz

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3033.msg57189#msg57189 date=1264473021]
(I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)
[/quote]

Added to the Canon.  [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Frommer_Reading_List]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Frommer_Reading_List[/url]

  - Eri

(Kidding.  KIDDING!!)



msg=57338 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 05:14:43 | u=1120

Re: Frommerian Email

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3033.msg57209#msg57209 date=1264474087]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3033.msg57189#msg57189 date=1264473021]That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)
[/quote]

rikx!  "I move" vs. "I move the branch."  Is it as simple as oe rikx vs. vulit oel rikx?
[/quote]
That's a very different kind of change than 'hunt' or 'wait'. In those verbs, the action is the same whether transitive or intransitive; the difference is in whether the object is pertinent to the conversation. In "I move" vs. "I move the branch", however, entirely different actions are involved. I wouldn't be surprised if those were two distinct verbs, or if the second were a causitive form: "I cause the branch to move": ??oel si futa vul rivikx, perhaps.



msg=57344 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 05:25:59 | u=2325

Re: Frommerian Email

suomichris

[quote author=roger link=topic=3033.msg57338#msg57338 date=1264482883]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3033.msg57209#msg57209 date=1264474087]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3033.msg57189#msg57189 date=1264473021]That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)
[/quote]

rikx!  "I move" vs. "I move the branch."  Is it as simple as oe rikx vs. vulit oel rikx?
[/quote]
That's a very different kind of change than 'hunt' or 'wait'. In those verbs, the action is the same whether transitive or intransitive; the difference is in whether the object is pertinent to the conversation. In "I move" vs. "I move the branch", however, entirely different actions are involved. I wouldn't be surprised if those were two distinct verbs, or if the second were a causitive form: "I cause the branch to move": ??oel si futa vul rivikx, perhaps.
[/quote]Or even something with tìng, as in yomtìng?  That's probably only going to show up for benefactives, though... Nevermind...



msg=57651 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 11:29:16 | u=2788

Re: Frommerian Email

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3033.msg57209#msg57209 date=1264474087]
rikx!  "I move" vs. "I move the branch."  Is it as simple as oe rikx vs. vulit oel rikx?
[/quote]

I take the added definition "shift position" to mean that this verb is intransitive in nature. There was a similar case in Klingon with the verb vIH move, be in motion, that was for some time interpreted as ambitransitive, but eventually it was confirmed that the definition "move" was there mostly as a familiar lookup anchor and that the intended meaning was intransitive. "Move" as a transitive verb is therefore vIHmoH, with the causative suffix -moH. Given the translation "move, shift position" for the Na'vi word, I suspect we have a similar situation here, although the answer may well be another verb entirely.

Roger suggested the use of si for Na'vi causatives, which seems plausible enough to me. More ideas on this subject? Any clues out there?



msg=58338 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 17:32:56 | u=114

Re: Frommerian Email

Is.

<adds letrr and kxeyey to personal flash card training program>

Congratulations on adding a new word to the Na'vi language, Taronyu!  :D Imagine how cool it'll be if they use it in Avatar 2 - then you can so demand royalty from the total movie gross! Haha.

And we don't know what the <eng> as in sengi means yet, no?



msg=58346 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 17:36:30 | u=1120

Re: Frommerian Email

roger

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3033.msg57651#msg57651 date=1264505356]
Roger suggested the use of si for Na'vi causatives, which seems plausible enough to me. More ideas on this subject? Any clues out there?
[/quote]
There's also the -tem in latem. I'm not suggesting we use these forms, just saying that I could imagine them being used.



msg=58908 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 21:57:26 | u=21

Re: Frommerian Email

wm.annis

The use of oeru teya si for "(the rhythm ...) fills me" (Weaving Song) suggests a role for si in creating causatives from adjectives, at least.



msg=58977 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 22:24:04 | u=1120

Re: Frommerian Email

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3033.msg58908#msg58908 date=1264543046]
The use of oeru teya si for "(the rhythm ...) fills me" (Weaving Song) suggests a role for si in creating causatives from adjectives, at least.
[/quote]
Good point, though the patient is still in the dative is that case.



msg=58985 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-26 22:27:25 | u=21

Re: Frommerian Email

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=3033.msg58977#msg58977 date=1264544644]Good point, though the patient is still in the dative is that case. [/quote]

In many languages the case disposition of formal causatives is often strange.  Granted, an intransitive causative sounds funkier than usual.

Maybe my title should be "the neurotic typologist."



msg=59260 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-27 02:01:25 | u=257

Re: Frommerian Email

kerofish

So, I've read through this thread, and I'm still not entirely understanding the purpose of futa. (I also apologize if this sort of interrupts the flow of conversation, as I'm pretty tired and "read this thread" means "read the first page"and ctrl-f'd my way through the rest of it)
I understand the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs (at least in English and German), but wouldn't Frommer's example, "Oel new futa Taronyu kivä", also make sense as "Oel new Taronyuti kivä"? Isn't the first one sort of saying, "I want that which [this thing which] Taronyu to go"? What is the grammatical function of futa?



msg=59315 | topic=3033 | board=99 | time=2010-01-27 03:01:37 | u=1120

Re: Frommerian Email

roger

[quote author=Fpeioyuyä 'ite link=topic=3033.msg59260#msg59260 date=1264557685]
So, I've read through this thread, and I'm still not entirely understanding the purpose of futa. (I also apologize if this sort of interrupts the flow of conversation, as I'm pretty tired and "read this thread" means "read the first page"and ctrl-f'd my way through the rest of it)
I understand the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs (at least in English and German), but wouldn't Frommer's example, "Oel new futa Taronyu kivä", also make sense as "Oel new Taronyuti kivä"? Isn't the first one sort of saying, "I want that which [this thing which] Taronyu to go"? What is the grammatical function of futa?
[/quote]
The latter would mean "I want Taronyu" plus "that (I? he? we?) go". It's not clear who's going, and you're saying you want him, rather than want his going.

So what you say is "I want this thing" (fì'ut), and then with the a define "this thing" to be "Taronyu goes". The same kind of thing happened in English, which is why we use the word "that" (as in "that thing") to pull double duty as "that" (as in "I want that X happen").



msg=63630 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 05:12:27 | u=54

Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Tiger

So I finally broke down and did what I was avoiding for a long time, and I emailed Paul Frommer.  There were three topics I had questions about, "si", possessive dative for physical possession, and the usage of "krr".

The auxiliary verb "si"...
The survival guide lists the verb si as "do, make", but this sounded to me like it was describing a concept more than a definition, so I asked about this.

Si is an auxiliary verb--it needs to be paired with something else. For the verb 'make' you would need something else like txula (build, custruct) or ngop (create).

About the only time si stands alone is when the non-verbial element has already been mentioned and is understood from the concept.  The example he gave of this was...

--Nga tsap'alute soli srak?
--Soli.

Dative possesive (Copula + dative)
This is indeed how physical possession is expressed, and as suspected Na'vi has no verb "to have".  However contrary to the general principal of flexible word order, the verb usually comes first when used for possession.  So for "I have an ikran" it would be "Lu oeru ikran".  He did not clarify why it was only "usually" and not always.

Krr & temporial adverb
This is a noun, but it can be used adverbially, as we've seen him do a few times.  So "tsakrr" is not just "that time" it can also be (and usually is) "AT that time".  Using a modifying clause with "krr" (linked with "a") it becomes a "when" clause.  For an example he gave:

Ngeyä Tireaioang zola'u a krr, law layu ngaru.
When your Spirit Animal comes, you will know.
At the time that your Spirit Animal has come, it will be clear to you.

I also asked about causatives, but apparently it's a bit of an explanation which he didn't have time for, aside from saying there is a causative infix.



msg=63636 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 05:25:26 | u=1673

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Toruk Taronyu

Wow, kudos for getting through to Lord Frommer!  (you asked some good q's and cleared up a lot  :D)

Do you have the original message somewhere?



msg=63644 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 05:38:28 | u=54

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Tiger

Well of course yeah.  That email isn't going to the bin.  That was mostly a direct copy but it wasn't a copy & paste, obviously I did change a few things in the explanation.  I'm posting a more verbatim copy of the language specific bits ont he LN wiki.



msg=63947 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 11:37:49 | u=2788

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3325.msg63630#msg63630 date=1264741947]
there is a causative infix
[/quote]

This intrigues me! :D

Oh, and we now have explicit confirmation of the suspected frakrr always.



msg=64034 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 13:31:05 | u=21

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3325.msg63630#msg63630 date=1264741947]aside from saying there is a causative infix.[/quote]

Outstanding!



msg=64047 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 13:40:26 | u=21

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

wm.annis

Update after thinking: that intersects interestingly with his Language Log statement that there's a "reflexive" infix as well.  If he meant "reflexive" more in the sense that reflexives are used in Western European languages (German, most of the Romance languages), then we have a +transitivity and a -transitivity infix pair (for the linguists, yes, yes, I know, valency).  What an interesting infix pile-up this will result in.

Even with the "free" word order, Frommer has some distinct habits of use.  He also seems to really like putting adverbs of degree or quantity after things, even at the end of clauses.  It'll be interesting to get this all sorted out from a discourse perspective.

Txula is new, yes?



msg=64210 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 15:17:35 | u=401

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Harìghawnu



[quote]
--Nga tsap'alute soli srak?
--Soli.
[/quote]

So we have the proof, that the original form is really "tsap'alute si", and the notorius "tsap'alute sengi" (that we have twice in the corpus) must be explainable from this form; there is no "sengi" as a word in it's own (at least not in this phrase).




msg=64365 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 16:31:00 | u=417

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3325.msg64047#msg64047 date=1264772426]
Txula is new, yes?
[/quote]

Think so. It's not in Taronyu's dictionary, at least, and I've never seen it before.

Ah, the slow trickling sweet honey of information. :)



msg=64455 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 17:10:57 | u=430

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

TehMightyPirate

[quote]Dative possesive (Copula + dative)
This is indeed how physical possession is expressed, and as suspected Na'vi has no verb "to have".  However contrary to the general principal of flexible word order, the verb usually comes first when used for possession.  So for "I have an ikran" it would be "Lu oeru ikran".  He did not clarify why it was only "usually" and not always.[/quote]

Ahhh, this clears up so much, irayo!

EDIT: Here's the link to the wiki canon for easy of use: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Dative_.2B_copula_possessive]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Dative_.2B_copula_possessive[/url]



msg=65132 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 23:08:15 | u=1485

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Erimeyz

Great questions, great to see Frommer's answers, and thanks for posting it to the wiki!

  - Eri



msg=65148 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 23:15:27 | u=1746

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Carborundum

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3325.msg63630#msg63630 date=1264741947]
--Nga tsap'alute soli srak?
--Soli.
[/quote]
Just to make sure I understand this correctly, this is a dialogue yes?
Person#1 asks: 'Have you made an apology?'
Person#2 answers: '(I) have made (an apology)'
Right?

Edit: Irayo, ma wm.annis!



msg=65157 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-29 23:18:07 | u=21

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

wm.annis

[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=3325.msg65148#msg65148 date=1264806927]Just to make sure I understand this correctly, this is a dialogue yes?
Person#1 asks: 'Have you made an apology?'
Person#2 answers: '(I) have made (an apology)'
Right?[/quote]

Yup.



msg=65352 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-30 03:14:28 | u=2104

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Mirri

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3325.msg63630#msg63630 date=1264741947]
Dative possesive (Copula + dative)
This is indeed how physical possession is expressed, and as suspected Na'vi has no verb "to have".  However contrary to the general principal of flexible word order, the verb usually comes first when used for possession.  So for "I have an ikran" it would be "Lu oeru ikran".  He did not clarify why it was only "usually" and not always.
[/quote]

Okay, physical possession I understand. If it was just that it'd be easy enough, because then every time I'd see a "have" in an English sentence I'm trying to translate, I could just dismiss it as an English construct and not something you'd say in Na'vi, e.g. in Na'vi you cannot "have a thought", "have a cold", "have a question", that's all just the English way of expressing it.

However, if we take the famous example: nga-ru lu fpom srak?
"Well-being" isn't exactly a physical thing is it? You might argue it's partly physical, but if it was all physical you'd just be asking if the other person was healthy, and there's more to the question than that, you're asking about a mental state too.

So how do I know which "have"s in English turn into lu+DAT and which are English colloquialisms?  :-\\



msg=65359 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-30 03:21:50 | u=54

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Tiger

We already knew it could be used for states and conceptual things...  IE "oeru lu aylì'u" I have words or "oeru lu fpom" I have well bring.  We didn't know if it could be used for physical possessions or not, as we'd yet to see an example of that.  Which is why I was asking, so we could stop saying "Well I THINK you can but I'm not sure".



msg=65441 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-30 05:02:08 | u=1673

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Toruk Taronyu

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3325.msg65359#msg65359 date=1264821710]
"oeru lu fpom" I have well bring.
[/quote]

oops! Should be well being.

And are we just sticking to Frommer's "usually" and saying "LU oeru fpom." ?




msg=65954 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-30 12:30:19 | u=2104

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Mirri

[quote author=Toruk Taronyu link=topic=3325.msg65441#msg65441 date=1264827728]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3325.msg65359#msg65359 date=1264821710]
"oeru lu fpom" I have well bring.
[/quote]

oops! Should be well being.

And are we just sticking to Frommer's "usually" and saying "LU oeru fpom." ?

[/quote]

Does the verb have to go in front of the sentence, or does it just need to be right in front of the dative pronoun?
Could you say "Pxi-a tukru-ti lu oeru." ? (I have a sharp spear)




msg=66277 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-30 15:08:58 | u=114

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

Is.

The most intriguing thing about the response, imo, is the revelation that word order could sometimes matter a great deal!

"However contrary to the general principal of flexible word order, the verb usually comes first when used for possession."

I wonder how often this happens. I for one will refrain from ever using a verb in the beginning of a sentence now, unless it's concerning possession of some kind.

Great questions, Omängum.



msg=66293 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-01-30 15:18:55 | u=21

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

wm.annis

[quote author=Is. link=topic=3325.msg66277#msg66277 date=1264864138]I wonder how often this happens. I for one will refrain from ever using a verb in the beginning of a sentence now, unless it's concerning possession of some kind.[/quote]

I'm not sure that's warranted.  Frommer seems happy to put other sorts of verbs at the beginning of clauses.  It's not like a particular word order for one function makes it unusable for other things.  A few random examples from the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus]Corpus[/url]:

Plltxe nga nìltsan!
Sìlpey oe, layu oeru ye'rìn sìltsana fmawn
zene oe 'awsiteng tìkangkem sivi fohu ...




msg=75741 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 06:28:00 | u=134

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

vidvamp01

Would those be predicates?



msg=76052 | topic=3325 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 11:21:35 | u=1120

Re: Auxilary verb "si", possessive dative, & "krr"

roger

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3325.msg65954#msg65954 date=1264854619]
Does the verb have to go in front of the sentence, or does it just need to be right in front of the dative pronoun?
Could you say "Pxi-a tukru-ti lu oeru." ? (I have a sharp spear)
[/quote]
No -ti on tukru.

We don't know, but word order is affected by discourse, so there may be differences in implication.



msg=67090 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 02:10:13 | u=47

Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

justin

A few days ago, I sent Paul Frommer an e-mail asking about the Na'vi numbers (there were other questions, too, but that was the only one that got answered). His response:

[quote]Kaltxì ma oeyä 'eylan Nayumeie,
Ngeyä pxesìpawmìri ngaru seiyi oe irayo.
'Awa tìpawmìri 'iveyng oe set; aylari zusawkrr 'ayeyng.
[zusawkrr = future; in the future]

Numbers!
I have a nice complete chart, but it wouldn't be cool if I simply attached it, as I'm sure you understand. Let me convey the essence, however, in a different form.

The system, as you know, is octal:

'aw, mune, pxey, tsìng, mrr, pukap, kinä, vol
volaw, vomun, vopey, vosìng, vomrr, vofu, vohin, mevol
mevolaw, mevomun, . . ., pxevol
pxevolaw, pxevomun, . . ., tsìvol
mrrvol
puvol
kivol
zam ( = 64, or 100 octal)
vozam ( = 512, or 1000 octal)
zazam ( = 4096, or 10000 octal)

First line above: In disyllables, stress is on the 1st.
Second line above: In disyllables, stress is on the 2nd, except for mevol.
Third line: Stress on the final syllables, except for pxevol.
Etc.

That should be enough for you to figure out the rest.
Kìyevame ulte Eywa ngahu,
Pawl
[/quote]

On a related note: Squeeeee!

EDIT: So here we have the full chart (as I see it):

\


msg=67095 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 02:16:14 | u=430

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

TehMightyPirate

Double squeeeee! If I wasn't busy with friends I would totally pour over this until my menari bleed.



msg=67107 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 02:34:24 | u=1317

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Triple Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! I've been waiting for these for like ever and ever! Time to break out some extremely difficult math equations that not even einstein could figure out!



msg=67127 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 03:19:05 | u=1921

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

pbhead

erm... tsìvol squeeeee?

what part of speach are numbers... like... can we say "forth" by adding... nì?



msg=67143 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 03:37:25 | u=21

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

wm.annis

[quote author=pbhead link=topic=3439.msg67127#msg67127 date=1264907945]what part of speach are numbers... like... can we say "forth" by adding... nì?[/quote]

Our only examples of this are in the Dictionary from the ASG.  We have 'awve first and nì'awve first (i.e., firstly).  Words for "first" are strange in many, many languages, so I don't know if we can extend the use of -ve this way.



msg=67148 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 03:48:33 | u=465

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Hysvear

Awesome! this will be fun to practice, i get to learn my 1's 2's and 3's all over again. XD



msg=67190 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 05:16:15 | u=47

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

justin

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg67143#msg67143 date=1264909045]Words for "first" are strange in many, many languages, so I don't know if we can extend the use of -ve this way.
[/quote]
I don't know. Na'vi seems remarkably regular thus far. No irregular verbs, no funky pluralizations (cf. English man/men), etc.



msg=67201 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 05:33:15 | u=2239

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

TorukMakto!

Irayo!
Great info!!
I got to first finish Molecular configuration, representation and Lewis dot for 50 molecules and lap report , then I'll get my eltu into this! :D :D



msg=67274 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 08:01:05 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

Note 'Awa tìpawmìri ; evidently numerals require the attributive 'a'. This fits with the film, where Norm says "I studied for five years"; the English is a bit unclear, but in the German dub I hear zìsìt-((o)) a-mrr ft‹ol›ia ohe. I don't know what that ((o)) is; perhaps an as-yet unknown adposition for "for, during".

Also zusawkrr "future", presumably "coming time". I take it that zusaw is a contraction of *z<us>a'u. Is <us> the active participle on intransitive verbs, and the passive participle on transitive verbs, maybe?



msg=67355 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 09:50:53 | u=2211

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Txaklan

Hurrah! Numbers! Another gap in the vocabulary filled!  ;D



msg=67578 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 12:50:19 | u=1485

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Erimeyz

Nayumeie, that is awesome!  Squee indeed!

I've added your correspondence to the Canon page on the wiki: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Numerals]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Numerals[/url]

Thanks for sharing it with us!

  - Eri



msg=67600 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:01:41 | u=132

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Taronyu

Thanks for this! I've added an appendix to the dictionary. :)



msg=67651 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:18:58 | u=2873

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Skyinou

Well, counting in 8 will be really.... fun
I think all Na'vi speaker will buy a new calculator  ;D



msg=67756 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:46:57 | u=1620

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

dontbugme

thats awesome!
for easy calculations you can use google: just enter the calculation into the searchform

you can write octal numbers by adding 0o in front of the digits
eg: 0o114+0o34
or usual base10 numbers
eg: 76+28
or mixed
eg: 0o114+28

the output numbersystem is given by the first number.
so you might want to add either "0o0 +" or "0 +" in front of your operation to transform it what you want



msg=67817 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 14:05:39 | u=1244

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Eight

Holy crap... I just wee'd a little.

This is incredible.



msg=67983 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 15:33:24 | u=4

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

zombat

woot!



msg=68484 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 19:46:52 | u=1855

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

tawway

It's a good thing 64x64 (4096) isn't "zamzam", then I'd be in the middle of a Flintstones moment. But isn't that the sort of thing you'd expect a kid just learning numbers to say?

The larger numbers should be at the beginning as per the table. Once you start with sequences like "vol-aw me-vol-aw pxe-vol-aw" doing silly things like swapping orders around makes things more difficult to understand.

zampey should be 4096+3    (zampey-mevol does look odd and where would you stress it to make sense?)

pxezam should be 3 * 4096  (pxezam mevol is easier to understand and you get a cadence with the stressed syllables)

This does remind me of Japanese numbering but octal.




msg=68511 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 19:51:53 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=tawway link=topic=3439.msg68484#msg68484 date=1264967212]
But isn't that the sort of thing you'd expect a kid just learning numbers to say?
[/quote]
Well, supposedly the Na'vi didn't count above 14 until "recently", and this does look like a system that was recently expanded.

Remember that the Na'vi weren't supposed to count above vofu '16' because that's how many fingers and toes they had? Well, vofu is 16 octal: it's 14 decimal. So does that mean the Na'vi have three toes on each foot?



msg=68567 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 20:05:55 | u=2873

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Skyinou

[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg68511#msg68511 date=1264967513]
Remember that the Na'vi weren't supposed to count above vofu '16' because that's how many fingers and toes they had? Well, vofu is 16 octal: it's 14 decimal. So does that mean the Na'vi have three toes on each foot?
[/quote]
Since we can see in the movie that they have 4, it's most probably 16 decimal.



msg=68586 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 20:11:44 | u=195

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

esoanem

[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg68511#msg68511 date=1264967513]
[quote author=tawway link=topic=3439.msg68484#msg68484 date=1264967212]
But isn't that the sort of thing you'd expect a kid just learning numbers to say?
[/quote]
Well, supposedly the Na'vi didn't count above 14 until "recently", and this does look like a system that was recently expanded.

Remember that the Na'vi weren't supposed to count above vofu '16' because that's how many fingers and toes they had? Well, vofu is 16 octal: it's 14 decimal. So does that mean the Na'vi have three toes on each foot?
[/quote]

Interesting, this is another example of the survival guide being rushed methinks. We have canon sources telling use that they have four digits on each hand and foot, the guide must be wrong again or else Frommer misunderstood when he was asked for a number for sixteen, he assumed they meant octal sixteen when they actually meant decimal.


================


Let's see if I can work with this table a bit:

pxevohin= 3*81+7*80=31 (dec)

So 3819 would be 7*83+3*82+5*81+3*80=kivozam pxezam mrrvolpey

Now I want to know how to express fractions/decimals.  ;D



msg=68657 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 20:37:40 | u=432

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Jasper

now i can finally mkae my name in na'vi XD
well the meaning of my name though XD
eywa ayngahu,
unilyu



msg=68679 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 20:42:57 | u=1244

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Eight

[quote author=unil-tìran-tokx link=topic=3439.msg68657#msg68657 date=1264970260]
now i can finally mkae my name in na'vi XD
[/quote]
Hahaha... the stupid thing is that this has only just occurred to me... and my forum name is a flippin' number. :D



msg=68689 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 20:49:35 | u=432

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Jasper

[quote author=Eight link=topic=3439.msg68679#msg68679 date=1264970577]
[quote author=unil-tìran-tokx link=topic=3439.msg68657#msg68657 date=1264970260]
now i can finally mkae my name in na'vi XD
[/quote]
Hahaha... the stupid thing is that this has only just occurred to me... and my forum name is a flippin' number. :D
[/quote]
fail XD



msg=68693 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 20:50:51 | u=132

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Taronyu

[quote author=unil-tìran-tokx link=topic=3439.msg68689#msg68689 date=1264970975]
[quote author=Eight link=topic=3439.msg68679#msg68679 date=1264970577]
[quote author=unil-tìran-tokx link=topic=3439.msg68657#msg68657 date=1264970260]
now i can finally mkae my name in na'vi XD
[/quote]
Hahaha... the stupid thing is that this has only just occurred to me... and my forum name is a flippin' number. :D
[/quote]
fail XD
[/quote]
EPIC FAIL.



msg=68702 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 20:54:17 | u=432

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Jasper

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3439.msg68693#msg68693 date=1264971051]
[quote author=unil-tìran-tokx link=topic=3439.msg68689#msg68689 date=1264970975]
[quote author=Eight link=topic=3439.msg68679#msg68679 date=1264970577]
[quote author=unil-tìran-tokx link=topic=3439.msg68657#msg68657 date=1264970260]
now i can finally mkae my name in na'vi XD
[/quote]
Hahaha... the stupid thing is that this has only just occurred to me... and my forum name is a flippin' number. :D
[/quote]
fail XD
[/quote]
EPIC FAIL.
[/quote]
that's a better way to put it XD
so back to topic i guess.. XD...



msg=68725 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 21:03:34 | u=2873

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Skyinou

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg68586#msg68586 date=1264968704]
Interesting, this is another example of the survival guide being rushed methinks. We have canon sources telling use that they have four digits on each hand and foot, the guide must be wrong again or else Frommer misunderstood when he was asked for a number for sixteen, he assumed they meant octal sixteen when they actually meant decimal.
[/quote]

Well, actually that would be a logical mistake you make when you first-encounter a new civilisation, since vofu is litterally 1 - 6.
This make the book more real, being intentional or not  ;D



msg=68795 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 21:36:59 | u=195

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

esoanem

The problem is that vofu isn't one-six, it's eight plus six. If they knew what the largest number the na'vi knew was, they'd know it first as mevol and then it would take them some time to realise it was decimal sixteen.



msg=68936 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 22:30:19 | u=2873

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Skyinou

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg68795#msg68795 date=1264973819]
The problem is that vofu isn't one-six, it's eight plus six. If they knew what the largest number the na'vi knew was, they'd know it first as mevol and then it would take them some time to realise it was decimal sixteen.
[/quote]

Well, since they don't write numbers, you are probably right.  :o
But I think it can be a natural mistake. If you don't know about octal and don't think about it, you will just take "vol" as beeing ten, since it is the first "two digit" number/word.



msg=68950 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 22:38:40 | u=132

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Taronyu

For anyone wondering what the stress for all of these is, I went through and figured it out according to Frommer's guidelines. Look in Appendix A of the Dictionary.



msg=69195 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 03:43:08 | u=1627

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Kawazoe

Finally! That's such great news! One more step toward Pandora :P



msg=69198 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 03:50:50 | u=1855

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

tawway

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3439.msg68950#msg68950 date=1264977520]
For anyone wondering what the stress for all of these is, I went through and figured it out according to Frommer's guidelines. Look in Appendix A of the Dictionary.
[/quote]

Fantastico, your link and the dictionary version are more aligned now.



msg=69200 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 03:52:19 | u=1003

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Skipper587

Ok, so for those of us who don't understand octal, can you explain in simple terms? I don't understand how numbers are combined.



msg=69206 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 03:57:53 | u=1627

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Kawazoe

[quote author=Sänumeyu link=topic=3439.msg69200#msg69200 date=1264996339]
Ok, so for those of us who don't understand octal, can you explain in simple terms? I don't understand how numbers are combined.
[/quote]

Octal is a numbering system which use 8 units to represent the numbers, like decimal which use 10 or binary which use 2. In binary you would count 0, 1, 10, 11, 100, 101... In octal you count like this: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20...

So, if you want to do a simple sum: 4 + 5 in decimal give you 9, in octal it give you 11.

That's basically it!



msg=69214 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:04:24 | u=3278

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Twisol

In octal (and using our numeric glyphs to explain), you'd count this way:

0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, ...

That is, the tens place is added to for every eight numbers in the ones place. In more mathematical terms, whereas in decimal we multiply each digit by 10 multiple times as the digit gets further to the left, in octal we multiple by 8.

332_octal = 3*(8^2) + 3*(8^1) + 2(8^0) = 3*64 + 3*8 + 2 = 210_decimal



msg=69219 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:07:38 | u=430

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Kawazoe link=topic=3439.msg69206#msg69206 date=1264996673]
[quote author=Sänumeyu link=topic=3439.msg69200#msg69200 date=1264996339]
Ok, so for those of us who don't understand octal, can you explain in simple terms? I don't understand how numbers are combined.
[/quote]

Octal is a numbering system which use 8 units to represent the numbers, like decimal which use 10 or binary which use 2. In binary you would count 0, 1, 10, 11, 100, 101... In octal you count like this: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20...

So, if you want to do a simple sum: 4 + 5 in decimal give you 9, in octal it give you 11.

That's basically it!
[/quote]

The easiest way to think of it is when we count in decimal form you count from 0 to 9 and then you add a 2nd number on there plus a zero (1, 2, 3....8, 9, 10). In octal you count from 0 to 7 and then you add the 2nd number, as shown above.

So, 10 in octal is 8 in decimal and 10 in decimal is 12 in octal. The key thing that confuses a lot of people here is they still represent the same number, it's just written in a different way. 50 people (in decimal) is still 50 people (in octal) it's just written/spoken in a different way. Also the math is still the same (2+2 still = 4, 10x10 still = 100) you just have to remember which system you're working in, octal or decimal. There's a bunch of handy converters online to convert from octal to decimal and vise versa.



msg=69237 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:19:09 | u=3278

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Twisol

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3439.msg69219#msg69219 date=1264997258]Also the math is still the same (2+2 still = 4, 10x10 still = 100) you just have to remember which system you're working in, octal or decimal.[/quote]
Careful! 4 + 5 is 11_octal, but 9_decimal. The math isn't exactly the same, you just happened to pick convenient numbers. ;)

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3439.msg69219#msg69219 date=1264997258]There's a bunch of handy converters online to convert from octal to decimal and vise versa.[/quote]
Or you can just use the Windows calculator in scientific mode. There's a set of switches on the left side that let you toggle hexadecimal, decimal, octal, and binary. Enter a number in octal mode and toggle to decimal mode, and it converts for you.



msg=69244 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:23:51 | u=1627

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Kawazoe

[quote author=Yanatan link=topic=3439.msg69237#msg69237 date=1264997949]
Careful! 4 + 5 is 11_octal, but 9_decimal. The math isn't exactly the same, you just happened to pick convenient numbers. ;)
[/quote]

That's why I used them in my example ;)

[quote author=Yanatan link=topic=3439.msg69237#msg69237 date=1264997949]
Or you can just use the Windows calculator in scientific mode. There's a set of switches on the left side that let you toggle hexadecimal, decimal, octal, and binary. Enter a number in octal mode and toggle to decimal mode, and it converts for you.
[/quote]

Was going to say that! I'll have to post faster next time :D



msg=69253 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:29:50 | u=3278

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Twisol

[quote author=Kawazoe link=topic=3439.msg69244#msg69244 date=1264998231]
[quote author=Yanatan link=topic=3439.msg69237#msg69237 date=1264997949]
Careful! 4 + 5 is 11_octal, but 9_decimal. The math isn't exactly the same, you just happened to pick convenient numbers. ;)
[/quote]

That's why I used them in my example ;)
[/quote]

Haha, I didn't notice that you used 4+5 too! I was referring to Ftiafpi's convenient 2+2 and 10*10 though. :D



msg=69261 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:39:37 | u=413

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

DukeDrake

Is ke'u used interchangably with zero? Or is there a more appropriate numeric form?

I was, at first, looking at ke'aw, but that looks very... colloqiual. Like you might expect to hear from some distant tribe in a small Hometree.



msg=69557 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 11:10:10 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

This is what I've come up with so far. If two "m" would come together I reduced them to "m".
The structure is pretty straight forward until 107 (octal) but then it gets a bit more complicated ...
octal
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
10

11
12
13
14
15
16
17
20

21
22
23
24
25
26
27
30

31
32
33
34
35
36
37
40

41
42
43
44
45
46
47
50

51
52
53
54
55
56
57
60

61
62
63
64
65
66
67
70

71
72
73
74
75
76
77
100

101
102
103
104
105
106
107
110

111
112
113
114
115
116
117
120

121
122
123
124
125
126
127
130

200
201
211
221
777
1000
1001
1011
1021
word
'aw
mune
pxey
tsìng
mrr
ukap
kinä
vol

volaw
vomun
vopey
vosìng
vomrr
vofu
vohin
mevol

mevolaw
mevomun
mevopey
mevosìng
mevomrr
mevofu
mevohin
pxevol

pxevolaw
pxevomun
pxevopey
pxevosìng
pxevomrr
pxevofu
pxevohin
tsìvol

tsìvolaw
tsìvomun
tsìvopey
tsìvosìng
tsìvomrr
tsìvofu
tsìvohin
mrrvol

mrrvolaw
mrrvomun
mrrvopey
mrrvosìng
mrrvomrr
mrrvofu
mrrvohin
puvol

puvolaw
puvomun
puvopey
puvosìng
puvomrr
puvofu
puvohin
kivol

kivolaw
kivomun
kivopey
kivosìng
kivomrr
kivofu
kivohin
zam

zamaw
zamun
zampey
zamsìng
zamrr
zamfu
zamhin
zamvol

zamvolaw
zamvomun
zamvopey
zamvosìng
zamvomrr
zamvofu
zamvohin
zamevol

zamevolaw
zamevomun
zamevopey
zamevosìng
zamevomrr
zamevofu
zamevohin
zampxevol

mezam
mezamaw
mezamvolaw
mezamevolaw
kinzamkivohin
vozam
vozamaw
vozamvolaw
vozamevolaw
structure
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8

8+1
8+2
8+3
8+4
8+5
8+6
8+7
2x8

2x8+1
2x8+2
2x8+3
2x8+4
2x8+5
2x8+6
2x8+7
3x8

3x8+1
3x8+2
3x8+3
3x8+4
3x8+5
3x8+6
3x8+7
4x8

4x8+1
4x8+2
4x8+3
4x8+4
4x8+5
4x8+6
4x8+7
5x8

5x8+1
5x8+2
5x8+3
5x8+4
5x8+5
5x8+6
5x8+7
6x8

6x8+1
6x8+2
6x8+3
6x8+4
6x8+5
6x8+6
6x8+7
7x8

7x8+1
7x8+2
7x8+3
7x8+4
7x8+5
7x8+6
7x8+7
8x8

8x8+1
8x8+2
8x8+3
8x8+4
8x8+5
8x8+6
8x8+7
8x8+8

8x8+8+1
8x8+8+2
8x8+8+3
8x8+8+4
8x8+8+5
8x8+8+6
8x8+8+7
8x8+2x8

8x8+2x8+1
8x8+2x8+2
8x8+2x8+3
8x8+2x8+4
8x8+2x8+5
8x8+2x8+6
8x8+2x8+7
8x8+3x8

2x8x8
2x8x8+1
2x8x8+8+1
2x8x8+2x8+1
7x8x8+7x8+7
8x8x8
8x8x8+1
8x8x8+8+1
8x8x8+2x8+1
decimal
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8

9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16

17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24

25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32

33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40

41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48

49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56

49
50
51
52
53
54
55
64

65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72

73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80

73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80

128
129
137
145
511
512
513
521
529





msg=69589 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 11:31:01 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

Why are we assuming that the numbers between zam and mezam are single words? They may well be linked with , and even if not, be thought of as more than one word.



msg=69615 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 11:49:37 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

Somewhere in one of Frommers interviews or posts I've read that Na'vi builds words like German by clustering basic words together to form a new one and not like English where the basic words usually remain separate.

example for numbers: 1425
= Eintausendvierhundertfünfundzwanzig  in German
= One thousand four hundred and twenty five  in English



msg=69646 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 12:16:44 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg69615#msg69615 date=1265024977]
Somewhere in one of Frommers interviews or posts I've read that Na'vi builds words like German by clustering basic words together to form a new one and not like English where the basic words usually remain separate.

example for numbers: 1425
= Eintausendvierhundertfünfundzwanzig  in German
= One thousand four hundred and twenty five  in English
[/quote]
Yeah, but even German has an "and" in there.



msg=69650 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 12:26:18 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

The "und" is there only because German turns the last two numberes out of order:
English: twenty five
German: fünf.und.zwanzig (= 5 + 20)
Na'vi: mevomrr (25 oct.)



msg=69729 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 13:10:10 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg69650#msg69650 date=1265027178]
The "und" is there only because German turns the last two numberes out of order:
English: twenty five
German: fünf.und.zwanzig (= 5 + 20)
Na'vi: mevomrr (25 oct.)
[/quote]
But the German would still be intelligible w/o the und. I'm just saying we don't know what Na'vi does between zam and mezam, or even if it's standardized.



msg=69749 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 13:23:08 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg69729#msg69729 date=1265029810]
[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg69650#msg69650 date=1265027178]
The "und" is there only because German turns the last two numberes out of order:
English: twenty five
German: fünf.und.zwanzig (= 5 + 20)
Na'vi: mevomrr (25 oct.)
[/quote]
But the German would still be intelligible w/o the und. I'm just saying we don't know what Na'vi does between zam and mezam, or even if it's standardized.
[/quote]
No, "fünfzwanzig" is gramatically wrong and "fünf zwanzig" could be interpreted as 5 x 20 or 520



msg=69756 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 13:25:18 | u=401

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Harìghawnu

[quote]But the German would still be intelligible w/o the und. [/quote]

???

No, it surely isn't intelligible, at least not as it is now.
If a person would say "fünf zwanzig", I'm quite sure that I'd not know, that he means "fünfundzwanzig".
"Fünf zwanzig" simply doesn't make any sense.
Maybe 520 or 5.20 (Euro) ...

E. g. "Das macht fünf zwanzig." (lit.: "This makes five twenty") is understood as "The price is 5.20 (Euro)". No German speaker would understand, that you could mean 25 (Euro). This is for sure!



msg=69824 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 14:27:24 | u=1485

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Erimeyz

[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg69615#msg69615 date=1265024977]
Somewhere in one of Frommers interviews or posts I've read that Na'vi builds words like German by clustering basic words together to form a new one and not like English where the basic words usually remain separate.
[/quote]

Can you find that interview or post?  I don't remember seeing anything from Frommer in that regard.

We know that some words are formed by compounds, for example yomtìng 'feed' from yom 'eat' + tìng 'give.'  But we know that some other compound-like words keep the parts separate: eltu si 'pay attention' from eltu 'brain' + si 'do'.  Okay, technically 'si' is an auxilliary verb, but still.  I don't think we can say as a general principle that Na'vi likes cramming words together, especially for something as long as mezamevolaw.

  - Eri



msg=69870 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 14:59:49 | u=1003

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Skipper587

[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg69557#msg69557 date=1265022610]
This is what I've come up with so far. If two "m" would come together I reduced them to "m".
The structure is pretty straight forward until 107 (octal) but then it gets a bit more complicated ...
[/quote]

So is Tsu'roen right? This was how I thought you would count, but I want to make sure that he/she's right.



msg=70124 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:46:04 | u=1

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Seabass

Added a little script that calculates the spelling of a number. [url=http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers]http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers[/url]



msg=70232 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:16:07 | u=774

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Thorinbur

Hahaha!
23456(in octal) = mezazapxevozatsìzamrrvofu

Irayo! Great news!
BTW: script failed with this num
made 1253*8 + 6 and decidet to translate it to: undefinedvofu



msg=70259 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:26:03 | u=631

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Plumps83

[quote author=Seabass link=topic=3439.msg70124#msg70124 date=1265042764]
Added a little script that calculates the spelling of a number. [url=http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers]http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers[/url][/quote][font=Garamond]
That's great! Thanks a lot for that!



msg=70268 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:28:16 | u=47

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

justin

[quote author=Sänumeyu link=topic=3439.msg69200#msg69200 date=1264996339]
Ok, so for those of us who don't understand octal, can you explain in simple terms? I don't understand how numbers are combined.
[/quote]
"Base-eight is just like base-ten... if you're missing two fingers."
--Tom Lehrer, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA-dMSDPFhA#]"New Math"[/url]



msg=70762 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 21:25:06 | u=73

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Prrton

[quote author=Nayumeie link=topic=3439.msg67090#msg67090 date=1264903813]
A few days ago, I sent Paul Frommer an e-mail asking about the Na'vi numbers (there were other questions, too, but that was the only one that got answered). His response:

On a related note: Squeeeee!

EDIT: So here we have the full chart (as I see it):

\


msg=70929 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:56:22 | u=2885

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Megan Megatoast

So... lets say I wanted to say that there were 9 of something... How do I express 9?



msg=70933 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:58:24 | u=21

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

wm.annis

[quote author=Megan Megatoast link=topic=3439.msg70929#msg70929 date=1265064982]
So... lets say I wanted to say that there were 9 of something... How do I express 9?
[/quote]

volaw: 8 + 1.



msg=70966 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 23:20:35 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

9 decimal is 11 octal. So a for a Na'vi 8+1 is 11



msg=70997 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 23:58:00 | u=2885

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Megan Megatoast

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg70933#msg70933 date=1265065104]
[quote author=Megan Megatoast link=topic=3439.msg70929#msg70929 date=1265064982]
So... lets say I wanted to say that there were 9 of something... How do I express 9?
[/quote]

volaw: 8 + 1.
[/quote]

Thanks so much!

So I've gotten conversion from base 10 to base 8 down... but how do I convert from base 8 to base 10? I'm probably missing something obvious.  :-[



msg=71004 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:03:38 | u=54

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tiger

Here's a hint...

In decimal
135
1 = 1 (hundreds = 10 x 10)
3 = 3 (tens = 10)
5 = 5 (ones)

In octal
135
1 = 1 (sixtyfours = (octal)10 x 10 = (decimal) 8 x 8)
3 = 3 (eights = (octal)10 = (decimal)8)
5 = 5 (ones)
= 1 x 64 + 3 x 8 + 5 x 1 = 93 (decimal)



msg=71142 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 01:31:22 | u=2613

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

dky.tehkingd.u

Great... numbers etc. W00tz!  :D

Now how would we actually use them in context? Do they count as adjectives or are there other rules applied to them?  ???



msg=71219 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:56:53 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=3439.msg69756#msg69756 date=1265030718]
[quote]But the German would still be intelligible w/o the und. [/quote]

???

No, it surely isn't intelligible, at least not as it is now.
If a person would say "fünf zwanzig", I'm quite sure that I'd not know, that he means "fünfundzwanzig".
"Fünf zwanzig" simply doesn't make any sense.
Maybe 520 or 5.20 (Euro) ...

E. g. "Das macht fünf zwanzig." (lit.: "This makes five twenty") is understood as "The price is 5.20 (Euro)". No German speaker would understand, that you could mean 25 (Euro). This is for sure!
[/quote]
Well, no, it's not going to be intelligible if no-one ever says it. But it would be just as intelligible as the rest if people started speaking that way; logically it would work just fine. My point is that we don't really need the und in German, but there it is anyway, a historical fossil. We don't really need a in Na'vi, but it might be there anyway. Especially if they haven't been counting to large numbers for very long, they might find it uncomfortable to string a bunch of numbers together without any breaks. Or maybe would mean that we have two independent numbers. At this point we don't know.



msg=71226 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:06:04 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=dky.tehkingd.u link=topic=3439.msg71142#msg71142 date=1265074282]
Great... numbers etc. W00tz!  :D

Now how would we actually use them in context? Do they count as adjectives or are there other rules applied to them?  ???
[/quote]
AFAI can tell, "five years" is zìzìt amrr. No plural necessary, because you have a number (as in Hungarian), and attributive 'a' to make the number modify the noun.



msg=73415 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 23:04:34 | u=3566

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Panzerfaust

Just got up the nerd-courage to look at this site yesterday. I skipped over the vocabulary to look at the grammar section, and found some very interesting elements.  Conjugating verbs by emotion and including dual and trial pronouns are really intriguing ideas for a language. I was, however, flattened by the wall of linguistic vocabulary in the main articles, so i thought "this is awfully complicated for day one, i'l go learn to count to 10 for laughs. That will be easy, right?". Sadly i find that the Na'vi use base 8 numbers... fundamentally different to all of human upbringing and thought. Looks like counting to 10 is not going to be so easy. Though of course Na'vi is understandably different from terran languages, i was at first annoyed with the unnecessary complication that having to think in base 8 added. I got to thinking on it, and as i hadn't used a base other than 10 in a long time i started counting on my fingers thinking how to say 10 in Na'vi. I quickly remembered how different bases work and had no problem with it. Then something hit me... when faced with a new number concept i used my FINGERS to figure things out. Humans have 5 fingers on each hand, for 10 in total. We can count to 10 on them, and our entire numerical system is based on 10. The Na'vi, however, have 4 fingers on each hand, allowing them to count only to 8, and oddly enough their entire numerical system is based on 8. I was amazed at how much this made sense... assuredly the most early concept of numbers began with us counting on our fingers, and evolved from there. Only natural then, that we think in 10's, and equally natural that the Na'vi think in 8's. Just how much this now makes sense made me respect the guy that wrote this language alot more, and i am now significantly more interested in understanding (at least some of) it.

Sorry for the rant... i have a habit of making massive posts and i found the brutal logic of 8-fingers-8-base really intriguing.
I am going to look at the guide to linguistic terms i just found in your "downloads" section. Hopefully this will help me understand the articles over the rest of the language better. I have 5 years of highschool spanish and am hoping that will help me understand this language. Thanks to anyone that read all this, lol!



msg=73455 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 23:24:59 | u=54

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tiger

It is no accident that both numbers and fingers are called "digits" in English.



msg=73485 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 23:54:44 | u=802

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tselxa

Hmm? No Na'vi 0? No computers for you silly Na'vi  ;)



msg=73513 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 00:29:25 | u=3566

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Panzerfaust

And of course, now looking through the pocket guide it flat out says:
"As the Na‟vi have four digits per hand, they have a base-eight number system."

Guess my discovery wasn't much of a discovery, oh well.

Oe ke tsole'a



msg=73550 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 01:23:06 | u=2613

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

dky.tehkingd.u

[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg71226#msg71226 date=1265079964]
[quote author=dky.tehkingd.u link=topic=3439.msg71142#msg71142 date=1265074282]
Great... numbers etc. W00tz!  :D

Now how would we actually use them in context? Do they count as adjectives or are there other rules applied to them?  ???
[/quote]
AFAI can tell, "five years" is zìzìt amrr. No plural necessary, because you have a number (as in Hungarian), and attributive 'a' to make the number modify the noun.
[/quote]

Hmm, so they're normal adjectives then.

Makes sense.



msg=73622 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 02:57:21 | u=1485

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Erimeyz

[quote author=Panzerfaust link=topic=3439.msg73415#msg73415 date=1265151874]
Just got up the nerd-courage to look at this site yesterday.
[/quote]

Congratulations, and welcome aboard!  We're all very friendly nerds here. :)

[quote author=Panzerfaust link=topic=3439.msg73415#msg73415 date=1265151874]
I was, however, flattened by the wall of linguistic vocabulary in the main articles
[/quote]

Alas, yes, there's a lot of that.  The first step for beginners is kind of steep.  The best starting points we have right now are the Pocket Guide, the Crash Course in Linguistics, and the Na'vi Dictionary:

[url=http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Learn-Navi-Pocket-Guide.pdf]http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Learn-Navi-Pocket-Guide.pdf[/url]
[url=http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Linguistic-terminology-crash-course.pdf]http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Linguistic-terminology-crash-course.pdf[/url]
[url=http://content.learnnavi.org/taronyu/NaviDictionary.pdf]http://content.learnnavi.org/taronyu/NaviDictionary.pdf[/url]

[quote author=Panzerfaust link=topic=3439.msg73415#msg73415 date=1265151874]
"this is awfully complicated for day one, i'l go learn to count to 10 for laughs. That will be easy, right?".
[/quote]

Hah! :) Oh, the irony...

[quote author=Panzerfaust link=topic=3439.msg73415#msg73415 date=1265151874]
The Na'vi, however, have 4 fingers on each hand, allowing them to count only to 8, and oddly enough their entire numerical system is based on 8. I was amazed at how much this made sense... assuredly the most early concept of numbers began with us counting on our fingers, and evolved from there. Only natural then, that we think in 10's, and equally natural that the Na'vi think in 8's. Just how much this now makes sense made me respect the guy that wrote this language alot more, and i am now significantly more interested in understanding (at least some of) it.
[/quote]

I'm glad you had that insight!  Paul Frommer (the guy who wrote the language) really has put a lot of thought into it, and has given us all a very interesting (and beautiful) toy to play with.

Enjoy your experience learning Na'vi!

  - Eri



msg=73693 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 04:26:25 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=dky.tehkingd.u link=topic=3439.msg73550#msg73550 date=1265160186]
[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg71226#msg71226 date=1265079964]
[quote author=dky.tehkingd.u link=topic=3439.msg71142#msg71142 date=1265074282]
Great... numbers etc. W00tz!  :D

Now how would we actually use them in context? Do they count as adjectives or are there other rules applied to them?  ???
[/quote]
AFAI can tell, "five years" is zìzìt amrr. No plural necessary, because you have a number (as in Hungarian), and attributive 'a' to make the number modify the noun.
[/quote]

Hmm, so they're normal adjectives then.

Makes sense.
[/quote]

Well, they seem to be used attributively the way adjectives are. (Though, to be fair, AFAIK we only have two tokens of this, and one is a line from the movie.) But that doesn't mean they do the other things that adjectives do. You can say s.t. is "prettier", but I rather doubt you can say it's "five-ier".



msg=73715 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 04:57:03 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

[quote author=Tefpakyu link=topic=3439.msg73485#msg73485 date=1265154884]
Hmm? No Na'vi 0? No computers for you silly Na'vi  ;)
[/quote]
Well the number "0" and it's use is a quiet advanced mathematical concept. Even in the western world it is for less than 1000 years in common use. And West learned it's use from the Arab's who most likely learned it from India.
The zero was also used by Mesoamerican high cultures who had developed quiet accurate calendars that they needed for their agriculture.
To come up with it you need to do some serious math.
I don't know if the Na'vi have a practical use for it. Do they have a calendar? Do they need one? They do not have agriculture and as far as we know the climate is not changing too much.  
Also they had no writing system which makes it unlikely that they did complicated astrological calculations required for developing a calendar.

If they had no "0" we may just assume they adapted the English "zero" -> "sìro" or "tsìro"?



msg=73986 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 10:58:57 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg73715#msg73715 date=1265173023]
I don't know if the Na'vi have a practical use for it. Do they have a calendar? Do they need one? They do not have agriculture and as far as we know the climate is not changing too much.  

If they had no "0" we may just assume they adapted the English "zero" -> "sìro" or "tsìro"?
[/quote]
Or maybe ziro !

The Na'vi could have quite an elaborate calendar. Evidently (per the SG) the seasons are quite dramatic, so they'd have the four seasons, and we know they have a word for "year". But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight. If Polyphemus eclipses Rigil (ACA), then there may be cycles of eclipses and non-eclipsing periods. Considering how long an eclipse by Polyphemus would last (a substantial fraction of a day), that might inspire calendars. Then there are the two neighboring moons which create strong tides on Pandora (strong enough for tidal heating of the moon, so much stronger than the effect of Luna on Earth), and there are many seas on Pandora, so there's the timing of the tides as the basis for counting time. And finally there's Kent (ACB), a fraction of a percent of the brightness of Rigil, but bright enough to illuminate the night quite effectively - maybe a thousand times brighter than a full moon on Earth. Half of the year Kent would be in the night sky, and half the year it wouldn't, so those are additional seasons beyond spring-summer-fall-winter. Kent's brightness would vary rather dramatically during its 87-year orbit, which is rather elliptical (e = 0.5), so that provides a handy natural 87-year (Terran year) "century" for the Na'vi. Also, the time Kent illuminates the night sky would cycle through the seasons, so you have that even longer period ("millennium"? "eon"?) between times Kent is at zenith at winter solstice.

Yes, lots of natural cycles to base a calendar on rather than just day, month, year.



msg=74704 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 17:19:22 | u=802

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tselxa

I don't think we'll be getting anything on the Na'vi calender until at least Avatar 2, so let's get what we know and formalise it!



msg=74871 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 18:20:04 | u=1855

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

tawway

[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg69650#msg69650 date=1265027178]
The "und" is there only because German turns the last two numberes out of order:
English: twenty five
German: fünf.und.zwanzig (= 5 + 20)
Na'vi: mevomrr (25 oct.)
[/quote]

The Na'vi for 25 (decimal) is actually 31 (octal), so mevomrr isn't right. It should be pxevolaw.

Look VERY carefully at the tables, which show octal, and you'll see that 8 & 9 are missing. It is confusing because we're using our decimal digits and it looks like we're skipping some. Na'vi counts like this


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 20  octal / Na'vi

1 2 3 4 5 6 7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16  decimal / us

1 2 3 4 5 6 7  8  9  A  B  C  D  E  F  10  hexadecimal


My only save there is that being a unix kinda guy I understand hexadecimal (base 16) reasonably and octal is "half" that. Hex is actually easier because a-f are used as numbers and it immediately triggers "this isn't decimal". Dropping 8 & 9 for octal means that there is no easy way to differentiate. I'd expect to see things like 20o for octal to tell me that it is 2x8 or 16.






msg=74876 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 18:23:43 | u=1855

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

tawway

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3439.msg68567#msg68567 date=1264968355]
[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg68511#msg68511 date=1264967513]
Remember that the Na'vi weren't supposed to count above vofu '16' because that's how many fingers and toes they had? Well, vofu is 16 octal: it's 14 decimal. So does that mean the Na'vi have three toes on each foot?
[/quote]
Since we can see in the movie that they have 4, it's most probably 16 decimal.
[/quote]

Yes, 4*4 = 16 decimal. In octal it would be 20.

Na'vi have tsìng digits on one hand, vol digits on both and mevol including toes. Go higher only if you dare...
(assuming four fingers/toes per limb)



msg=74892 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 18:34:33 | u=1855

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

tawway

[quote author=Megan Megatoast link=topic=3439.msg70997#msg70997 date=1265068680]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg70933#msg70933 date=1265065104]
[quote author=Megan Megatoast link=topic=3439.msg70929#msg70929 date=1265064982]
So... lets say I wanted to say that there were 9 of something... How do I express 9?
[/quote]

volaw: 8 + 1.
[/quote]

Thanks so much!

So I've gotten conversion from base 10 to base 8 down... but how do I convert from base 8 to base 10? I'm probably missing something obvious.  :-[
[/quote]

You would treat the "columns" as 1's 10's 100's 1000s' but each column isn't 1, 10, 10x10, 10x10x10. It's now 1, 8, 8*8, 8*8*8
(or 1, 8, 64, 512). Like this:

263o = 2*8*8 + 6*8 + 3 = 128 + 48 + 3 = 179 decimal

You can look at 263o as "two sixty-fours, six eights and three". Once you get the columns right it's a lot faster to convert the numbers.




msg=75347 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 23:05:24 | u=1620

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

dontbugme

does anybody know how to ask "how many" or how to say "do something X times" ?



msg=77189 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 22:01:54 | u=195

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

esoanem

I believe from used "pefya holpxay" to mean how many although I could be misremembering and it was actually just "peholpxay"/"holpxaype".

As for do it X many times, I'd probably just use nì-.

So kill twice would be "tspang nìmune".



msg=77744 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 07:18:35 | u=1

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Seabass

The script on the vocabulary page now supports all number that we know (up to 8028159, "kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin").

[url=http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers]http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers[/url]



msg=80621 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:23:37 | u=2613

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

dky.tehkingd.u

The number conversion page is very annoying to use actually. Can't you just have a normal text box / submit button instead of an annoying thing that changes your value every time you try to type?  >:(



msg=80729 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:28:57 | u=195

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

esoanem

Having just used the bit on the website (which I don't mind too much) I propose that the na'vi for leet should be zati as 1337(dec)=2471(oct).  ;D



msg=80736 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:37:58 | u=1318

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

HTML_Earth

[quote author=Seabass link=topic=3439.msg77744#msg77744 date=1265354315]
The script on the vocabulary page now supports all number that we know (up to 8028159, "kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin").

[url=http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers]http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers[/url]
[/quote]
I found a mistake:
If you only type 6 it says "ukap" instead of "pukap"



msg=80759 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:48:10 | u=195

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

esoanem

It's misbehaving if I try to type 8 or 9 in as well. And I can't use the arrow keys to go back and delete part of the number I typed in.



msg=81867 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 06:04:12 | u=2613

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

dky.tehkingd.u

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg80759#msg80759 date=1265478490]
It's misbehaving if I try to type 8 or 9 in as well. And I can't use the arrow keys to go back and delete part of the number I typed in.
[/quote]

Exactly my point.



msg=81871 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 06:07:54 | u=1

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Seabass

8 or 9 don't exist in octal, hence it yells at you.

Script has been updated; it shouldn't be replacing invalid entries, but lets you correct them.



msg=81972 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 08:26:06 | u=195

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

esoanem

The input type was set as decimal. I thought that was probably the reason but it shouldn't be doing it.

It doesn't mind 18 or 19, it just seems to height 8 and 9 on their own.



msg=83516 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 00:17:34 | u=3863

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Mithcoriel

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg70762#msg70762 date=1265059506]
Fì'uri nìfrau sweya kawngunil oeyä längu nìwotx! Oeyä elturi teriholpxay ke lu tìsìlpey nìngay nìwotx. Kxawm txo fya'o a tsun rel sivi nìholpxay ke livu tengfya fya'o nìkll nìvomun ha oer tìtsun tlsivam KWAWM kop ziyeva'u. Slä, nìngay nìteng 'it'evi slolu oe. Tìngay awngar lu holpxay nìwotx ta K. Pawl a fìtxeleri oeru prrte' leiu nìhawng, slä sngusä'iset zene nivume! Eywa oehu!  :'(
[/quote]

Any chance you could translate that? I'm sure there are some Navi-newbies who are curious what you said, at least I am. ^^

[Quote]But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.[/quote]

Wow. But we saw that days (and therefore months) aren't that long on Pandora, didn't we? I mean not much longer than an earth day.



msg=83547 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 00:49:26 | u=3552

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

tigermind

[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=3439.msg83516#msg83516 date=1265588254]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg70762#msg70762 date=1265059506]
Fì'uri nìfrau sweya kawngunil oeyä längu nìwotx! Oeyä elturi teriholpxay ke lu tìsìlpey nìngay nìwotx. Kxawm txo fya'o a tsun rel sivi nìholpxay ke livu tengfya fya'o nìkll nìvomun ha oer tìtsun tlsivam KWAWM kop ziyeva'u. Slä, nìngay nìteng 'it'evi slolu oe. Tìngay awngar lu holpxay nìwotx ta K. Pawl a fìtxeleri oeru prrte' leiu nìhawng, slä sngusä'iset zene nivume! Eywa oehu!  :'(
[/quote]

Any chance you could translate that? I'm sure there are some Navi-newbies who are curious what you said, at least I am. ^^

[Quote]But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.[/quote]

Wow. But we saw that days (and therefore months) aren't that long on Pandora, didn't we? I mean not much longer than an earth day.
[/quote]

Personally, i can't see any good reason to assume Pandora is tidally locked to Polyphemus; our moon happens to be tidally locked, but my understanding iss that our moon was very much the exception and not the rule.  Polyphemus is so large that if it were in the same place in the Pandoran sky all the time, i don't think we ever would have not seen it in the sky--after all, the Hometree is only, what, 100, 200 km from Hell's Gate?  That wouldn't be far enough to change the view substantially; and, if i remember correctly, we specifically see Polyphemus in the sky at one point, and then at a later time in about the same place we don't.  Now, having said all that, i'm pretty sure James Cameron might have fudged the astrophysics a little for the sake of making a movie.



msg=83631 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 02:39:06 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

[Quote]But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.[/quote]
Actually the ASG states in detail that Pandora is NOT tidally locked.

Though that would be indeed unusual.
[quote=Wikipedia]Most significant moons in the Solar System are tidally locked with their primaries, since they orbit very closely and tidal force increases rapidly (as a cubic) with decreasing distance. Notable exceptions are the irregular outer satellites of the gas giant planets, which orbit much farther away than the large well-known moons.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons[/url][/quote]



msg=84748 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 17:55:01 | u=432

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Jasper

[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg83631#msg83631 date=1265596746]
[Quote]But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.[/quote]
Actually the ASG states in detail that Pandora is NOT tidally locked.

Though that would be indeed unusual.
[quote=Wikipedia]Most significant moons in the Solar System are tidally locked with their primaries, since they orbit very closely and tidal force increases rapidly (as a cubic) with decreasing distance. Notable exceptions are the irregular outer satellites of the gas giant planets, which orbit much farther away than the large well-known moons.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons[/url][/quote]
[/quote]
well, your second quote:
polyphemus is a gas giant, and we don't know how far pandora is away from it, so it's not weird for it not to be tidally locked.
and well the ASG is kinda the best recourse we have for this kinda stuff so..
eywa ayngahu,
atanä mungeyu



msg=85569 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:59:52 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

Pandora appears to be in a relatively close orbit from the size of Polyphemus on it's sky.



msg=85715 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 00:33:33 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

Yeah, I think that would have to be artistic license.

But it would mean that a month (≈ a week?) is a different period than a day.



msg=85743 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 01:08:05 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

We just don't have enough intel do do any of those calculations.

The only thing I could estimate so far from the info in the ASG is the orbit period of Polyphemus: ~490 days
Orbital radius\



msg=86034 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 07:23:23 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

We do have the film to give us some idea. Polyphemus looms larger in the Pandoran sky than Saturn does in Titan, though both planets are of approximately the same size. But Polyphemus is more massive, so from both clues the Pandoran orbit should be shorter than Titans, which is two weeks. (Except that Titan is tidally locked.)



msg=86070 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 08:20:24 | u=73

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Prrton

[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=3439.msg83516#msg83516 date=1265588254]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg70762#msg70762 date=1265059506]
Fì'uri nìfrau sweya kawngunil oeyä längu nìwotx! Oeyä elturi teriholpxay ke lu tìsìlpey nìngay nìwotx. Kxawm txo fya'o a tsun rel sivi nìholpxay ke livu tengfya fya'o nìkll nìvomun ha oer tìtsun tlsivam KWAWM kop ziyeva'u. Slä, nìngay nìteng 'it'evi slolu oe. Tìngay awngar lu holpxay nìwotx ta K. Pawl a fìtxeleri oeru prrte' leiu nìhawng, slä sngusä'iset zene nivume! Eywa oehu!  :'(
[/quote]

Any chance you could translate that? I'm sure there are some Navi-newbies who are curious what you said, at least I am. ^^

[/quote]

This is in every way my *best* nightmare. When it comes to numbers my brain is hopeless. Perhaps if the way of representing them visually is not like base 10 then MAYBE some way for me to grok it will come. But, truly I am transformed into a tiny child (actually should now be « prrnen » and not « 'it'evi »). I'm too thrilled at the reality of having all the numbers from K. Paul, but now I have to learn them! May Eywa be with me!  :'(



msg=86074 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 08:35:49 | u=54

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tiger

Oel ke fpìl futa ngal kayin zìsìtit apxevomrr.



msg=86420 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 14:14:30 | u=1485

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Erimeyz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg86070#msg86070 date=1265703624]
When it comes to numbers my brain is hopeless. Perhaps if the way of representing them visually is not like base 10 then MAYBE some way for me to grok it will come.
[/quote]

Don't think of them as numbers.  Think of them as fingers, and don't include your thumbs.

Remember "this little piggy went to market, this little piggy stayed home" etc?  Well, look at your hands, and tell yourself that the name of the first little piggy is 'aw, the next little piggy's name is mune, the next little piggy's name is pxey, etc.  The last piggy's name is vol, and he's special, because he represents the entire set of piggies.

Then learn to count in Na'vi by putting together sets of piggies.



Going the other direction, where you read or hear a Na'vi number and need to understand what it means is even easier:



The difficult part is converting numbers between base ten and base eight.  SO DON'T DO THAT.  Count in Na'vi instead.  Think in Na'vi.  Use your fingers... that's essentially what the Na'vi do, after all, except that they get to include their thumbs. :)

  - Eri



msg=86805 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 16:53:11 | u=631

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I don't know the uvan of piggy counting but that was funny ;D And I think I even got the concept :P



msg=86932 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 17:46:56 | u=2788

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3439.msg86074#msg86074 date=1265704549]
Oel ke fpìl kea futa ngal kayin zìsìtit apxevomrr.
[/quote]

Just thought I'd mention that with futa, the negative concord seems not to be upheld, as per:

Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na'vi set fìfya pivlltxe!



msg=87385 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 21:39:43 | u=54

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tiger

Irayo si, oe ke tìng nari tìkenongur a krr oel plltxe fì'ut.

Eyawr soli!



msg=87661 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:08:51 | u=73

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Prrton

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3439.msg86420#msg86420 date=1265724870]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg86070#msg86070 date=1265703624]
When it comes to numbers my brain is hopeless. Perhaps if the way of representing them visually is not like base 10 then MAYBE some way for me to grok it will come.
[/quote]

Don't think of them as numbers.  Think of them as fingers, and don't include your thumbs.

Remember "this little piggy went to market, this little piggy stayed home" etc?  Well, look at your hands, and tell yourself that the name of the first little piggy is 'aw, the next little piggy's name is mune, the next little piggy's name is pxey, etc.  The last piggy's name is vol, and he's special, because he represents the entire set of piggies.

Then learn to count in Na'vi by putting together sets of piggies.



Going the other direction, where you read or hear a Na'vi number and need to understand what it means is even easier:



The difficult part is converting numbers between base ten and base eight.  SO DON'T DO THAT.  Count in Na'vi instead.  Think in Na'vi.  Use your fingers... that's essentially what the Na'vi do, after all, except that they get to include their thumbs. :)

  - Eri

[/quote]

This is wonderful and I'll use it, but ultimately the thing that I'm whining about IS CONVERSION during an interpretation process (whether that's 'quiet' in my head, or needs to spew fluently out of my mouth). I've also come up with my OWN symbols (as alternates to your brilliant piggies) and may be able to see them interact with each other in my head (less embarrassingly than needing to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisanbop]chisanbop[/url] leNa'vi with my pinkies tucked in every time a number comes up. Which I'm still willing to do in a pinch  ;) ). Time will tell...

I KNOW this is a challenge for me because I struggle (always) with any number in Japanese over 10 million. And [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals#Large_numbers]万[/url] as a complicating factor PALES in comparison to the octal approach.  ;)


_____________



msg=87665 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:12:06 | u=21

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg87661#msg87661 date=1265760531](less embarrassingly than needing to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisanbop]chisanbop[/url] leNa'vi with my pinkies tucked in every time a number comes up. [/quote]

Oh, wow.  I learned chisanbop in junior high, and have made use of it ever since (excellent for computing domino scores).  This is a brilliant adaptation!



msg=87706 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:40:44 | u=631

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Plumps83

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg87665#msg87665 date=1265760726]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg87661#msg87661 date=1265760531](less embarrassingly than needing to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisanbop]chisanbop[/url] leNa'vi with my pinkies tucked in every time a number comes up. [/quote]

Oh, wow.  I learned chisanbop in junior high, and have made use of it ever since (excellent for computing domino scores).  This is a brilliant adaptation![/quote]

[font=Garamond]I've never heard of that but I think it's quite amazing :) and am thinking whether one could adapt that for Na'vi - you can either leave out the little finger or the thumb completely (right would be 'aw to kinä; left would be all the vol, mevol...)

Just a wild idea :P



msg=87975 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 04:40:53 | u=1485

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Erimeyz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg87661#msg87661 date=1265760531]
ultimately the thing that I'm whining about IS CONVERSION during an interpretation process

I KNOW this is a challenge for me because I struggle (always) with any number in Japanese over 10 million. And [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals#Large_numbers]万[/url] as a complicating factor PALES in comparison to the octal approach.  ;)
[/quote]

You know, I thought about this very thing later on.  I think the answer is probably pretty simple.  But first, an important note for anyone reading the thread and thinking about Na'vi numbers as octal versus decimal:

DON'T.

In particular, don't fall into the trap of thinking "Well, mevomun is in base eight with two in the eights place and two in the ones place, so that's 22 octal, which is 18 decimal."  Here's the thing: mevomun isn't 22 octal, because the Na'vi don't write their numbers down.  "Mevomun" isn't anything but mevomun.  Literally, mevomun means two eights and two.  A human would have to translate that into one ten and eight, and if they were a toktor they might write it down as "18".  But the written numerals are meaningless to the Na'vi, and not just because they're in human script or in base ten.  Even if the human transcribed it as "22" in an attempt to capture the idea of "two (eights) and two", it still would be meaningless.  We write transcriptions of the sounds of Na'vi words; we do not write the Na'vi language, because the Na'vi do not write.

You may think this is a trivial point.  I maintain it is profound and deserving of further reflection.

Anyway, back to translating numbers.  Here again, my advice is: DON'T.  At least, not literally, not often.  Why not?  Because I sincerely doubt the Na'vi do an awful lot of counting.

Consider zamvolaw: octal 111, ( 1 * 64 ) + ( 1 * 8 ) + 1 = 73 decimal.  I'd bet my next food ration that no Na'vi has ever said the word "zamvolaw" in his life.  Why would he?  What has he got to count that requires such range and precision?  In fact, I'll bet the existence of words for non-approximate numbers higher than tsivol (four eights = 32 decimal) is a linguistic curiosity, something that technically any Na'vi could say and count to but practically nobody ever does except for some aylì'utseotu (word artists, poets) who are trying to make some crazy kind of point (you know how artists are).

So when your outpost commander tells you to tell the locals that he's got three hundred and fifty men waiting to come and bulldoze their sacred trees, don't bother converting it to 536 octal, because saying "mrrzam pxevofu" will only get you a funny look.  Just say "pxezam".  Three "hundred", and never mind that "hundred" really means "sixty-four", because both words really mean "more than you can easily count, but not so much that you'll get lost trying."

And if some goober scientist tells you to tell the Eyktan he needs to collect fifteen samples of tree sap, tell him "vol fu mevol".  And if the goober scientist asks you what you said, tell him "ten or twenty".  And if some idiot bureaucrat tells you to tell the tribe that their continued resistance is costing the company hundreds of thousands of dollars per day, just deck him and leave his sorry ass outside.  Maybe give him a breather mask if you're feeling nice.

So.  Think in Na'vi.  Count in Na'vi.  Don't count too much or too high, don't translate precisely, and don't allow the parties you are translating for to assume that their counterparty has implied or understood precision where no such implication or understanding exists.

 - Eri



msg=87999 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 05:27:58 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

FINALLY! Somebody who sees the bigger picture.
Na'vi are a stoneage culture and their need for counting is fairly limited. My guess is that in general 8 (all fingers of both hands) is the highest number used in daily life. Maybe 2 x 8 or 4 x 8 are used once in a while. And maybe if a Na'vi get's all silly (after too much Kava) he might count all the way up to 8 x 8.
But most likely anything above 2 x 8 is just "many"



msg=88124 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 08:03:20 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3439.msg87975#msg87975 date=1265776853]
Here's the thing: mevomun isn't 22 octal, because the Na'vi don't write their numbers down.
[/quote]

I agree that it's unlikely the Na'vi would often count beyond mevol. In fact, is more or less says that in the SG. I was assuming this discussion was for humans who want to speak Na'vi, and many of them will want to be able to use larger numbers, just as they want to be able to write it despite the "fact" that the Na'vi don't.

Nonetheless, mevomun is octal. Whether it's written is irrelevant: it's a base 8 number system. Our decimal written number system merely reflects the fact that our spoken system is decimal. The Na'vi even went so far, when they extended their system, to create a new unit, zam, for *vovol, which clinches it as an octal system.



msg=88134 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 08:22:15 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg88124#msg88124 date=1265789000]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3439.msg87975#msg87975 date=1265776853]
Here's the thing: mevomun isn't 22 octal, because the Na'vi don't write their numbers down.
[/quote]... I was assuming this discussion was for humans who want to speak Na'vi, and many of them will want to be able to use larger numbers, just as they want to be able to write it despite the "fact" that the Na'vi don't. ...[/quote]

Hmm ... if a Na'vi can't make sense of it it's pretty much pointless using it.
In that case you may as well use the decimal system with English names for the numbers and save yourself a lot of hassle and funny looks from the locals.  



msg=88597 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 14:56:48 | u=1485

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Erimeyz

[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg88124#msg88124 date=1265789000]
I was assuming this discussion was for humans who want to speak Na'vi, and many of them will want to be able to use larger numbers, just as they want to be able to write it despite the "fact" that the Na'vi don't.
[/quote]

That's true, and a valid point.  However, my advice to those humans (and it really is nothing more than my advice) is still: don't do it.  This is obviously a philosophical matter (or possibly religious), but in my view, using large numbers in Na'vi is like translating a mechanic's auto repair manual into Na'vi; it may be possible, but why would you want to?  That's not what the language is for.  Unlike natural languages, Na'vi was created for a purpose; it fulfills that purpose very well, and does poorly elsewise.  To me, using Na'vi outside of its intended context is an aesthetic train wreck, and I'm inclined to avoid it.

Na'vi is a bit different than Klingon in that regard.  Klingon had words for transporter and warp drive and so forth, but not "table".  That's because, like Frommer, Okrand only created vocabulary as needed for the scripts.  But Klingons are a modern culture (futuristic, even... "postmodern"?  but I digress) and would be expected to have words for everything we 21st century humans want to talk about, even if nobody's gotten around to actually inventing those words yet.  Na'vi, on the other hand, is limited both by Frommer's capacity for word creation and the constraints of their fictional culture.  There's never going to be a Na'vi word for "computer", or "book", or "wheel", nor should there be.  And while we can use loan words, at some point you've got to ask yourself - if all your conversations are peppered with all these English words... why aren't you just speaking English?

Large, precise numbers fall into the same category for me.  Yes, the Na'vi could use them, but they almost certainly don't.  Why would you?

(Again, just my viewpoint, and if anyone sees it differently, well, that's fine by me, and I'd love to hear about it.)

  - Eri



msg=91994 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 02:33:09 | u=3998

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Txuna Swizaw

[quote author=Nayumeie link=topic=3439.msg67190#msg67190 date=1264914975]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg67143#msg67143 date=1264909045]Words for "first" are strange in many, many languages, so I don't know if we can extend the use of -ve this way.
[/quote]
I don't know. Na'vi seems remarkably regular thus far. No irregular verbs, no funky pluralizations (cf. English man/men), etc.
[/quote]

you could consider lenition funky plurals i supose.



msg=92166 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 06:02:13 | u=1324

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Txur Taronyu

It's great to see that Frommer cares about the 3,000+ members of LearnNavi. Knowing that when something "erupts" in the language, we'll know almost instantly.



msg=92294 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 08:57:05 | u=2234

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Tsu roen

[quote author=Nayumeie link=topic=3439.msg67190#msg67190 date=1264914975]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg67143#msg67143 date=1264909045]Words for "first" are strange in many, many languages, so I don't know if we can extend the use of -ve this way.
[/quote]
I don't know. Na'vi seems remarkably regular thus far. No irregular verbs, no funky pluralizations (cf. English man/men), etc.
[/quote]
Well English isn't a "normal" language - in fact it's the most screwed up language I know of. It started by merging the languages of the Angles and Saxons that [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_invasion]invaded and occupied Britain[/url] after the Roman retreat. Their resulting language was [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English]Anglo-Saxon[/url], a Germanic language with some [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse]Norse[/url] influences.

Then in 1066 came with the Norman invasion [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language]Anglo-Norman[/url] (a French dialect) and with it some Latin into the mix.

To make the mix-up complete the English language was fixed in it's written form during the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift]great vowel shift[/url]. That is the reason that an English vowel is in general pretty variable in it's pronunciation depending in which word it is used.



msg=92883 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 17:29:41 | u=699

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Doryban

Maybe 66 (octal 102) would be "Zam sì mune"? That would make a whole lot of sense.



msg=95118 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-13 22:11:59 | u=195

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

esoanem

Frommer has given us the rules for large numbers. 66dec (102oct) is zamun.


Or were you refering to the etymological form (in which case you're probably correct).



msg=108405 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 11:24:13 | u=1990

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

pnz_punisher

Why is this number generator Navi does not work in Internet Explorer?

(Translated into English by google translator)



msg=108544 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 13:21:36 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg95118#msg95118 date=1266099119]
Frommer has given us the rules for large number. 66dec (102oct) is zamun.
[/quote]

Where was that? I must have missed it.



msg=110162 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 17:46:02 | u=195

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

esoanem

Read the OP.  ;)

[desc=66 (dec)]102[/desc]  = [desc=64 (dec)]100[/desc] + [desc=2 (dec)]2[/desc]

[desc=64 (dec)]100[/desc] = zam

2 (when combining) = -mun

zam-mun -> zamun



msg=110869 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 23:54:43 | u=1120

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

roger

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg110162#msg110162 date=1266860762]
Read the OP.  ;)
[/quote]

Sorry, what's the OP? Online Post? He didn't cover numbers between zam and mezam. We're only assuming they are each a single word; AFAIK Frommer himself has not said that.



msg=111008 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 01:41:56 | u=2

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

snowyfox

[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg110869#msg110869 date=1266882883]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg110162#msg110162 date=1266860762]
Read the OP.  ;)
[/quote]

Sorry, what's the OP? Online Post? He didn't cover numbers between zam and mezam. We're only assuming they are each a single word; AFAIK Frommer himself has not said that.
[/quote]

OP stands for Original Post, or the first item on page 1 of this thread.



msg=112035 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 19:24:42 | u=195

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

esoanem

[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg110869#msg110869 date=1266882883]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg110162#msg110162 date=1266860762]
Read the OP.  ;)
[/quote]

Sorry, what's the OP? Online Post? He didn't cover numbers between zam and mezam. We're only assuming they are each a single word; AFAIK Frommer himself has not said that.
[/quote]

That's a point. The table is only derived using a tiny bit of extrapolation though and is almost certainly OK.



msg=115124 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-25 07:28:22 | u=3277

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

KameSeze

I thought I'd start out in an easy area and learn counting to 10. OY! Was I WRONG! This is probably the most complicated thread I've ever read. I just have to say here, to all of you who understand it, WOW! You are amazing. :)



msg=115813 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-25 18:41:04 | u=0

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

jasgor9

Sweet! (starts memorizing) lol. ;D. Irayo tsmukan!



msg=150962 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 00:07:45 | u=3300

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

redes1

please can someone please tell me how the number chart works ???



msg=150994 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 01:12:58 | u=0

Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=redes1 link=topic=3439.msg150962#msg150962 date=1269043665]
please can someone please tell me how the number chart works ???
[/quote]

You have the "whole" numbers like, pukap (6). When attaching to numbers like vol (Eight/Octal 10) or zam (100/Octal 64), pukap shortens to pu-; is puvol (60/Octal 48). To lenited -fu after vol, vofu (would be 16/Octal 14), zam, za(m)fu (would be 106/Octal 70).



msg=67194 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 05:19:13 | u=2325

Another email from Frommer

suomichris

Sorry if someone else started a thread for this email already; I didn't see one.  This email was actually a response to someone else's question, but it looks like it got CC'd to several folks who had asked similar things.  Here 'tis:

[quote]Ngeyä txantsana tìpawmìri ngaru seiyi oe irayo.

[txantsan = excellent]

A number of people have asked about this, so let me explain:

There's a small class of "fused" infixes that combine the common -iv- subjunctive/dependent verb infix with those that indicate tense and aspect. It goes like this:

PRESENT IMPERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + IMPERFECT -er- --> -irv-
PRESENT PERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + PERFECT -ol- --> -ilv-
PAST SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + PAST PROXIMATE -ìm- or PAST GENERAL -am- --> -imv-

I think you can see what's happening here: the CONSONANT of the tense or aspect infix is shoved into the middle of the -iv- infix--an infix in an infix, if you will.

With the future subjunctive, there's a slight complication:

FUTURE SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + FUTURE PROXIMATE -ìy- or FUTURE GENERAL -ay- --> *-iyv-

The problem is that although a syllable can end with r, l, or m, it can't end with y (unless it's part of a diphthong, which iy is not). That would violate the phonotactic constraints of Na'vi. So an epenthetic vowel comes to the rescue: -iyev-

An alternate form of this fused infix has arisen: -ìyev-. As an instance of vowel harmony (rare in Na'vi), the high front tense vowel i has become lax (ì) under the influence of the lax vowel e in the following syllable. Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable.

So that's a very long-winded explanation of why Kìyevame means: "May (we) See (each other again) in the future."

Sìlpey oe, oeyä tì'eyng law livu ngar!



msg=67196 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 05:23:34 | u=2239

Re: Another email from Frommer

TorukMakto!

Irayo!
I guess this is the only way to get more info and insight of the language due to Fox limtations.
Dr. Fommer seems like a nice person, I'd say keep on sending those insightful emails with question and little by little get re knowledge of the language.



msg=67623 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:09:39 | u=1485

Re: Another email from Frommer

Erimeyz

Awesome, thanks for sharing!  Added to the Canon: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Fused_-iv-_Infixes]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Fused_-iv-_Infixes[/url]

  - Eri



msg=67648 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:17:39 | u=2873

Re: Another email from Frommer

Skyinou

That's great!
We just need to know about PAST/FUTUR + PERFECTIVE now
And triple infixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example? ;D

Thanks for the mail!



msg=67670 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:25:32 | u=2104

Re: Another email from Frommer

Mirri

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg67194#msg67194 date=1264915153]
The problem is that although a syllable can end with r, l, or m, it can't end with y (unless it's part of a diphthong, which iy is not). That would violate the phonotactic constraints of Na'vi. So an epenthetic vowel comes to the rescue: -iyev-

An alternate form of this fused infix has arisen: -ìyev-. As an instance of vowel harmony (rare in Na'vi), the high front tense vowel i has become lax (ì) under the influence of the lax vowel e in the following syllable. Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable.

[/quote]

Ouch x.x
I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."



msg=67672 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:25:47 | u=21

Re: Another email from Frommer

wm.annis

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3448.msg67648#msg67648 date=1264943859]
And triple inixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example? ;D[/quote]

Oh, good.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who went from "yay!  an Epistle from Frommer" immediately to "wait, what's a future perfective subjunctive going to be?"



msg=67684 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:29:43 | u=21

Re: Another email from Frommer

wm.annis

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3448.msg67670#msg67670 date=1264944332]I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."[/quote]

Tsa'u nìlaw lam — that seems clear.



msg=68064 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 16:19:37 | u=3041

Re: Another email from Frommer

DrBinder

Well, I'm glad this got cleared up.



msg=68133 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 17:04:02 | u=2325

Re: Another email from Frommer

suomichris

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3448.msg67670#msg67670 date=1264944332]I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."[/quote]Yup, he cleared that up in an email this morning.  Here's the text:

[quote]Ma oeyä eylan,

Tsap’alute, mì upxare a fpole’ oel ayngaru trram lu kxeyey:

KEYAWR:
Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable

EYAWR:
Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable

Irayo ’eylanur awngeyä Prrton a kxeyeyti rolun.[/quote]



msg=68136 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 17:05:23 | u=2325

Re: Another email from Frommer

suomichris

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3448.msg67648#msg67648 date=1264943859]
That's great!
We just need to know about PAST/FUTUR + PERFECTIVE now
And triple infixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example? ;D

Thanks for the mail!
[/quote]He does say that there are a "small number" of fused ones, so I wonder if most of the others won't just be one infix after another?



msg=68174 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 17:18:52 | u=2788

Re: Another email from Frommer

Lance R. Casey

[quote]Ma oeyä eylan,

Tsap'alute, mì upxare a fpole' oel ayngaru trram lu kxeyey:

KEYAWR:
Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable

EYAWR:
Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable

Irayo 'eylanur awngeyä Prrton a kxeyeyti rolun.[/quote]

Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?



msg=68182 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 17:20:08 | u=2325

Re: Another email from Frommer

suomichris

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3448.msg68174#msg68174 date=1264958332]Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?
[/quote]Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p



msg=68276 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 18:11:47 | u=2239

Re: Another email from Frommer

TorukMakto!

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68182#msg68182 date=1264958408]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3448.msg68174#msg68174 date=1264958332]Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?
[/quote]Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p
[/quote]

What is your guess about the translation of those new words?



msg=68278 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 18:14:50 | u=2325

Re: Another email from Frommer

suomichris

[quote author=TorukMakto! link=topic=3448.msg68276#msg68276 date=1264961507]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68182#msg68182 date=1264958408]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3448.msg68174#msg68174 date=1264958332]Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?
[/quote]Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p
[/quote]

What is your guess about the translation of those new words?
[/quote]Well, eyawr certainly looks like correct.  run, though, could be any number of things, I think: "find, notice, point out, correct, etc."  Hard to say without a translation/context.  I am kind of hoping it's "find," since that would be a great word to have!



msg=68282 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 18:16:34 | u=664

Re: Another email from Frommer

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68278#msg68278 date=1264961690]
[quote author=TorukMakto! link=topic=3448.msg68276#msg68276 date=1264961507]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68182#msg68182 date=1264958408]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3448.msg68174#msg68174 date=1264958332]Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?
[/quote]Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p
[/quote]

What is your guess about the translation of those new words?
[/quote]Well, eyawr certainly looks like correct.  run, though, could be any number of things, I think: "find, notice, point out, correct, etc."  Hard to say without a translation/context.  I am kind of hoping it's "find," since that would be a great word to have!
[/quote]

Finally we can stop misusing muiä!

-Keyl



msg=68387 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 19:07:42 | u=2325

Re: Another email from Frommer

suomichris

Just heard back from Frommer.  run means "find, discover."

Yay a verb for "find"!!



msg=68740 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 21:09:28 | u=2104

Re: Another email from Frommer

Mirri

I didn't think it was worth bothering Frommer over something that was clearly a typo, but we got two new words out of it, so YAY!  ;D



msg=69008 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 23:24:03 | u=430

Re: Another email from Frommer

TehMightyPirate

wow, this fills a big gap, awesome.



msg=69267 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:43:01 | u=73

Re: Another email from Frommer

Prrton

[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68387#msg68387 date=1264964862]
Just heard back from Frommer.  run means "find, discover."

Yay a verb for "find"!!
[/quote]

I was just about to double-check with him on run. I took it to mean "find" when I first saw it, but all of the other "options" were certainly valid ideas earlier in the thread today too. It makes sense to me as something as basic as "find" because it's so short and such a critical concept in any human language.

  Trr aylrrtokä!

          ;D

__________________



msg=70228 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:15:57 | u=2104

Re: Another email from Frommer

Mirri

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3448.msg69267#msg69267 date=1264999381]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68387#msg68387 date=1264964862]
Just heard back from Frommer.  run means "find, discover."

Yay a verb for "find"!!
[/quote]

I was just about to double-check with him on run. I took it to mean "find" when I first saw it, but all of the other "options" were certainly valid ideas earlier in the thread today too. It makes sense to me as something as basic as "find" because it's so short and such a critical concept in any human language.

  Trr aylrrtokä!

           ;D

__________________
[/quote]

Evidently a passionate conversation is not a very basic concept then, ftxavanga pängkxo.



msg=70460 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:05:08 | u=54

Re: Another email from Frommer

Tiger

By that measure, a passionate conversation is a more basic concept in Na'vi than it is in English.  (5 syllables vs 6)



msg=70482 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:13:31 | u=2104

Re: Another email from Frommer

Mirri

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3448.msg70460#msg70460 date=1265051108]
By that measure, a passionate conversation is a more basic concept in Na'vi than it is in English.  (5 syllables vs 6)
[/quote]

Passionate chat, then.

(how do you get 6 syllables out of the English one? pas-sion-ate con-ver-sa-tion is 7)



msg=70486 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:14:33 | u=54

Re: Another email from Frommer

Tiger

Because I can't count!  I'm unedumicated.



msg=70539 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:42:52 | u=2873

Re: Another email from Frommer

Skyinou

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3448.msg70228#msg70228 date=1265044557]
Evidently a passionate conversation is not a very basic concept then, ftxavanga pängkxo.
[/quote]
Well, you probably use passionate conversations often, but not "passionate conversation".  ;D



msg=69233 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:17:36 | u=1011

Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Kiliyä

Ma ayeylan,

I was delighted this afternoon to receive a reply from Karyu Pawl to my e-mail regarding vocab for MND.  Please find most of the reply below.  Underlining is mind based on the notes that Pawl gave, since he was unable to underline them himself (due to software issues).  I have assumed that syllables in words start with a consonant, and that -wrr is the syllable's boundry in mungwrr (from munge + wrrpa, "brought outside"?) rather than mu.ngwrr.  Enjoy!

[quote author="Karyu Pawl"]Let me answer some of your [Midsummer Night's Dream] vocabulary questions:

sweet = kalin
tongue = ftxì
air = ya
bud = prrnesyul

prrnen = infant, baby
syulang = flower
So "bud" is an obvious compound. (Components are often truncated in Na'vi compounds.)

sick = spxin
disease = säspxin
the state of being ill = tìspxin

yet, still = mi
[A nice minimal pair: mì vs. mi]

except = mungwrr ADP- (that is, an adposition that doesn't trigger lenition)

game = uvan
to play = uvan si
metal (in general) = fngap

No words yet for horned, moon, favor, nor, judge/judgment. I'll be thinking about those. (I'm not sure if Pandora even has moons in its sky. Can you have a moon going around a moon?)

For "nor," you may be able to get around it by using "or" (fu) with a negative: to do neither A nor B is not to do A or B.

Hope that helps!

Feel free to share any of this...
[/quote]



msg=69252 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:29:50 | u=1485

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Erimeyz

Forsooth! The Teacher sends a missive dear
And gives to us the words we fain would hear.
Kiliyä, wise and gracious, shared with all
The joyful answers from our teacher, Paul.

  - Eri the Iambic



msg=69260 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:39:25 | u=1485

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Erimeyz

p.s. Added to the Canon: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Midsummer_Night.27s_Dream_Vocabulary]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Midsummer_Night.27s_Dream_Vocabulary[/url]

Thanks for sharing!  And wow, this is cool!

  - Eri



msg=69285 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:58:53 | u=465

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Hysvear

Awesome. I'm going to fix some of my sentences now XD.



msg=69654 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 12:30:51 | u=132

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Taronyu

Added to Dictionary, thanks towards you and Tikawnga mungeyu.



msg=69656 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 12:32:57 | u=1011

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Kiliyä

Nìtxan irayo ngaru, ma 'eylan (why do people use 'eylan more than tsmuk now...?).  You are the one plugging away keeping everyone up to date!



msg=69856 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 14:49:17 | u=21

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

wm.annis

[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=3510.msg69233#msg69233 date=1264997856]sick = spxin
disease = säspxin
the state of being ill = tìspxin[/quote]

Ahah!  Instrumental sä- is set free!



msg=69949 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:39:51 | u=430

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3510.msg69856#msg69856 date=1265035757]
[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=3510.msg69233#msg69233 date=1264997856]sick = spxin
disease = säspxin
the state of being ill = tìspxin[/quote]

Ahah!  Instrumental sä- is set free!
[/quote]

In which way? This seems consistent with exactly what we knew before, a disease is the instrument by which you get sick. Or do you mean it's been set free from simply instructional uses (teachings)?



msg=69955 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:42:21 | u=21

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

wm.annis

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3510.msg69949#msg69949 date=1265038791]In which way? This seems consistent with exactly what we knew before, a disease is the instrument by which you get sick. Or do you mean it's been set free from simply instructional uses (teachings)?[/quote]

A single example of a lexical affix is not exactly something I want to rely on.  Frommer himself said that he had [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#s.C3.A4-_Prefix]only one use[/url] of it when he mailed Taronyu not that long ago.  Now we have two, so it's stretching its wings a bit. 



msg=70473 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:09:30 | u=54

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Tiger

But the instrumental prefix brings up an interesting question, so to speak...

pawm - ask...

tìpawm - question?
or
säpawm - question?

Would the abstract concept of asking be a question, or would the instrument of asking be a question?  I've seen several people use the former, but I tend to lean towards the latter.



msg=70506 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:25:05 | u=430

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3510.msg70473#msg70473 date=1265051370]
But the instrumental prefix brings up an interesting question, so to speak...

pawm - ask...

tìpawm - question?
or
säpawm - question?

Would the abstract concept of asking be a question, or would the instrument of asking be a question?  I've seen several people use the former, but I tend to lean towards the latter.
[/quote]

Well, wouldn't "säpawm" technically just be "word" or "speech" since that's really what to use to "ask" something.



msg=70547 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:45:59 | u=2788

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3510.msg70473#msg70473 date=1265051370]
But the instrumental prefix brings up an interesting question, so to speak...

pawm - ask...

tìpawm - question?
or
säpawm - question?

Would the abstract concept of asking be a question, or would the instrument of asking be a question?  I've seen several people use the former, but I tend to lean towards the latter.
[/quote]
Frommer uses the former:

Sìpawmìri oe ngaru seiyi irayo.
Thank you for the questions.

(from Jan 19 [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]email[/url])



msg=76914 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 19:42:10 | u=631

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Quick question about uvan si...
is that "to play a game, to play (as an actor), or to play an instrument"? How would you see that?



msg=76928 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 19:47:04 | u=2788

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Lance R. Casey

Seeing as how uvan is "game", uvan si would be "play a game". For the musical meaning, I'd expect pamtseo si.



msg=77868 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 10:41:04 | u=631

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Plumps83

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3510.msg76928#msg76928 date=1265312824]
Seeing as how uvan is "game", uvan si would be "play a game". For the musical meaning, I'd expect pamtseo si.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]So you'd say: *Oe pamtseo si hu i'en. ?



msg=77918 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 11:05:09 | u=2788

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Lance R. Casey

I'd use the instrumental (PNI) adposition fa.



msg=79472 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 23:58:44 | u=664

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3510.msg77868#msg77868 date=1265366464]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3510.msg76928#msg76928 date=1265312824]
Seeing as how uvan is "game", uvan si would be "play a game". For the musical meaning, I'd expect pamtseo si.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]So you'd say: *Oe pamtseo si hu i'en. ?
[/quote]

Probably *Oe pámtseo si fa i'en.

-Keyl

EDIT: For some reason I didn't see Lance's post...  :o  IGNORE ME!



msg=79494 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 00:10:39 | u=631

Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Irayo! :)

Tsa'u srung soli oeru.



msg=69552 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 11:06:28 | u=73

TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Prrton

Ta K. Pawl ne Prrton

[quote=Paul Frommer]As for "because":

Talun [[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-niaw/king-ayliuya-lehrrap/msg63233/#msg63233]ta tsmukan Skyinou[/url]] is almost exactly one of the words I came up with! I had come up with taluna, from ta + lun (reason) + a, in keeping with the idea that the clause following "because" is modifying the head noun lun, so that "a" is required. But I can see that over time the final a could drop . . . so I'm happy to parenthesize it in the glossary: talun(a).

There's a related word oeyk (2 syllables, stress on the 2nd) meaning 'cause.' The corresponding conjunction is taweyka (with the obvious small sound changes). And in keeping with the above argument, I'll go with taweyk(a).

So it's talun(a) or taweyk(a), which are pretty much synonyms. Take your pick!

By the way, a related word is tafral, meaning 'therefore, because of that.' (The derivation is probably pretty clear.) It's an adverb, unlike talun(a) and taweyk(a), which are conjunctions.

Perfect analysis of sìlpey, comparing it to ralpeng. Yup, that's it! [(tìlaw ta Prrton)meaning that they inflect on the verbal stems pey and peng and not on sìl- or ral-.]

And speaking of Neytiri's and Jake's eveng . . . and holpxay ayzekwäyä feyä . . . that's one for JC to figure out. <g>

hol = few.[/quote]

TAFRAL:

 - TALUN(a) = "from (the) reason" >>> "becuase" (conj.)
 - TAWEYK(a) = "based on (the) cause" >>> "because" (conj.)
 - LUN = "reason" (noun)
 - OEYK = "cause" (noun)
 - HOLPXAY = "number" (noun)
 - HOL = "few" (adj.)
 - TAFRAL = "therefore, because of that" (adverb)

Rutxe, Frapo, tsmukan SKYINOUr IRAYO si ko!!   ;D

Tewti, ko srak?

PS: From another mail: TXANTSAN = "excellent" (adj.), if you haven't seen it already.



msg=69644 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 12:15:48 | u=1120

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

roger

Thanks, Prrton!

Two questions: do we get atalun, ataweyk with the opposite clause order, or alunta, aweykta ?

Could oeyk be a derivation of eyk ?



msg=69969 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:51:56 | u=21

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=3529.msg69644#msg69644 date=1265026548]Two questions: do we get atalun, ataweyk with the opposite clause order, or alunta, aweykta ?[/quote]

I would expect alunta (< a lun-ta) and aweykta (< a oeyk-ta), on the suspicion that we can't wedge an adposition between a noun and the attributive marker.



msg=70137 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:49:03 | u=2211

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Txaklan

Every day something new! He's spoiling us!



msg=70226 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:15:12 | u=631

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I just hope he doesn't get in trouble because of that ;)

What I find interesting is that we can actually see that Karyu Frommer has a lot he hasn't thought about yet and for me it's quite thrilling to see how he makes up a new word for us... or considers what we think about certain constructions and meanings of words.
You just feel that he wants to help us... :)



msg=70252 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:24:30 | u=2104

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Mirri

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70226#msg70226 date=1265044512]
You just feel that he wants to help us... :)
[/quote]

Of course he does, he's a teacher and over 3500 people signed the Free Na'vi petition.
When was the last time you had 3500 highly motivated students hanging on your every word? Tsa'u karyuyä unil lu ;)



msg=70278 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:31:01 | u=631

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Plumps83

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70252#msg70252 date=1265045070]
Of course he does, he's a teacher and over 3500 people signed the Free Na'vi petition.
When was the last time you had 3500 highly motivated students hanging on your every word? Tsa'u karyuyä unil lu ;)[/quote]

[font=Garamond]I'm just saying ;) Not everyone would react in that way, I guess. Not everyone would answer to hundreds of mails .... which problably ask for more or less the same things over and over again. It very much speaks for him! Ayoeyä Karyu :)

Ah, what we need is some kind of diminutive affix ... something parents would call their children and vise versa as a sign of affection and respect :)



msg=70282 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:31:20 | u=1571

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

AyekongAyauyä

I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?



msg=70305 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:43:03 | u=2104

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Mirri

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70278#msg70278 date=1265045461]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70252#msg70252 date=1265045070]
Of course he does, he's a teacher and over 3500 people signed the Free Na'vi petition.
When was the last time you had 3500 highly motivated students hanging on your every word? Tsa'u karyuyä unil lu ;)[/quote]

[font=Garamond]I'm just saying ;) Not everyone would react in that way, I guess. Not everyone would answer to hundreds of mails .... which problably ask for more or less the same things over and over again. It very much speaks for him! Ayoeyä Karyu :)

Ah, what we need is some kind of diminutive affix ... something parents would call their children and vise versa as a sign of affection and respect :)

[/quote]

Doesn't look like there's an affix that we know of yet, might not exist. But we've got the words for mommy, daddy, and kid, which are just cutified versions.



msg=70357 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:06:12 | u=631

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Plumps83

[quote author=AyekongAyauyä link=topic=3529.msg70282#msg70282 date=1265045480]
I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Not that we know of so far.

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70305#msg70305 date=1265046183]Doesn't look like there's an affix that we know of yet, might not exist. But we've got the words for mommy, daddy, and kid, which are just cutified versions.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]That's what I mean - there seem to be specific forms for these words. I was more aiming at an affix with which you could change every noun. Like there's a suffix -ín in Irish which makes teach (house) into teachaín (little house) or in German -lein and -chen which makes Kind (child, 'eveng) into Kindchen (little child, 'evi)



msg=70368 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:11:12 | u=2104

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Mirri

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70357#msg70357 date=1265047572]
[quote author=AyekongAyauyä link=topic=3529.msg70282#msg70282 date=1265045480]
I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Not that we know of so far.

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70305#msg70305 date=1265046183]Doesn't look like there's an affix that we know of yet, might not exist. But we've got the words for mommy, daddy, and kid, which are just cutified versions.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]That's what I mean - there seem to be specific forms for these words. I was more aiming at an affix with which you could change every noun. Like there's a suffix -ín in Irish which makes teach (house) into teachaín (little house) or in German -lein and -chen which makes Kind (child, 'eveng) into Kindchen (little child, 'evi)
[/quote]

Yes, but those affixes don't exist in a lot of other languages. So what you can do is like Na'vi is doing, which is cutify each individual word.



msg=70379 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:21:45 | u=631

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Yay, more to learn for us ;D

Nah, I get what you mean, Mirri - was just a wild idea that I had and thought would be cool if Na'vi had something like that.

Alright, back on topic...



msg=70447 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:59:42 | u=2788

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70357#msg70357 date=1265047572]
[quote author=AyekongAyauyä link=topic=3529.msg70282#msg70282 date=1265045480]
I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Not that we know of so far.
[/quote]

Given the versatility of the derivational affixes, *peweyk or *oeykpe are likely to be understood, but whether they're to be found in the Frommerian vocabulary is another matter. ;)



msg=70666 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 20:39:43 | u=73

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Prrton

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70368#msg70368 date=1265047872]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70357#msg70357 date=1265047572]
[quote author=AyekongAyauyä link=topic=3529.msg70282#msg70282 date=1265045480]
I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Not that we know of so far.

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70305#msg70305 date=1265046183]Doesn't look like there's an affix that we know of yet, might not exist. But we've got the words for mommy, daddy, and kid, which are just cutified versions.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]That's what I mean - there seem to be specific forms for these words. I was more aiming at an affix with which you could change every noun. Like there's a suffix -ín in Irish which makes teach (house) into teachaín (little house) or in German -lein and -chen which makes Kind (child, 'eveng) into Kindchen (little child, 'evi)
[/quote]

Yes, but those affixes don't exist in a lot of other languages. So what you can do is like Na'vi is doing, which is cutify each individual word.
[/quote]

  Rutxe tìng nari ne [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/diminutive-name-framework-proposal/]fìkìng[/url]

__________________________



msg=70970 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 23:23:43 | u=1485

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

Erimeyz

Added to the Canon by wm.annis: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Some_Conjunctions_and_Adverbs]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Some_Conjunctions_and_Adverbs[/url]

Prrton, thanks for sharing this!  Wm, thanks for documenting it!

  - Eri



msg=71218 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:50:38 | u=1120

Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3529.msg69969#msg69969 date=1265039516]
[quote author=roger link=topic=3529.msg69644#msg69644 date=1265026548]Two questions: do we get atalun, ataweyk with the opposite clause order, or alunta, aweykta ?[/quote]

I would expect alunta (< a lun-ta) and aweykta (< a oeyk-ta), on the suspicion that we can't wedge an adposition between a noun and the attributive marker.
[/quote]
The first of these is confirmed. I posted on the dictionary thread.



msg=69919 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:25:02 | u=401

nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)

Harìghawnu

In Frommer's Lemondrop interview there is the sentence:

Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Vitrautral.
There's nobody I'd rather commune with under the Tree of Souls.

Was the contracted "nulnivew" intended by Frommer, or is it a formatting mistake (deleting a space character)?

I mean, it is obvious, that this form consists out of "nul" (which seems to be something like a comparative maker, considering the "nulkrr - longer (time)" given in the ASG) and "new" (want).

But is it really intended to be one (compounded) word? If the answer is "yes", that would be interesting, because the subjunctive-infix is inserted into the stem of the verbal part of this compound, while "nul" is treated like a prefix. So far I didn't see verbs of this kind in the corpus.

"tireapivängkxo" seems to be a related thing.



msg=69948 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:38:59 | u=21

Re: nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)

wm.annis

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=3552.msg69919#msg69919 date=1265037902]So far I didn't see verbs of this kind in the corpus.[/quote]

It occurs in the [url=http://www.lingweenie.org/docs/proleg.pdf]hunt song[/url] in the ASG.  The compound yom-tìng is given the proximal future yomtìyìng.



msg=69993 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:04:20 | u=401

Re: nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)

Harìghawnu


Yes, but in this case both parts are verbs in itself.

But what's about "nul"?



msg=70021 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:17:33 | u=21

Re: nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)

wm.annis

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=3552.msg69993#msg69993 date=1265040260]

Yes, but in this case both parts are verbs in itself.

But what's about "nul"? [/quote]

Why would the type of the first element in a verb compound matter for this?



msg=70042 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:23:38 | u=401

Re: nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)

Harìghawnu


Ok. I see, that this would not matter really much.




msg=69990 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:03:00 | u=4

Art related Vocab

zombat

Been in communication with Pawl myself, I figured I'd add these to this area.

[quote=Pawl]
Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan!

[fwa = fì'u a
rel = image, picture
reltseo = visual art
law = clear][/quote]

[quote=Pawl]Ma Pìraysì,

Tewti!!!

Rel oeyä na uniltìranyu lor lu nìngay! Reltseotu atxantsan lu nga!

[reltseotu = artist
txantsan = excellent]
[/quote]
New Vocab:

Fwa = That Which
Rel = Image, Picture
Reltseo = Visual Art
Reltseotu = Artist

What I find interesting is the use of -tu instead of -yu on reltseotu. My assumption here is that if -yu is "verb-er" than -tu is "verb-ist"  I'll be asking him about that and will hopefully have some clarification.



msg=70211 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:11:14 | u=417

Re: Art related Vocab

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg69990#msg69990 date=1265040180]
New Vocab:
Fwa = That Which
Rel = Image, Picture
Reltseo = Visual Art
Reltesotu = Artist

What I find interesting is the use of -tu instead of -yu on reltseotu. My assumption here is that if -yu is "verb-er" than -tu is "verb-ist"  I'll be asking him about that and will hopefully have some clarification.
[/quote]

Got a typo there :)

Also - wouldn't "Reltseo" be a noun, in which case -tu might be used on nouns rather than verbs.  However, I think your deduction is more correct, since "tu" seems to be related to people, meaning the "-ist" analogy is probably more likely.



msg=70244 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:20:33 | u=631

Re: Art related Vocab

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]spe'e is a verb and there we have the form spe'etu
Maybe it can be used for both verb and noun



msg=70419 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:50:44 | u=417

Re: Art related Vocab

Alìm Tsamsiyu

Yeah, I'm not sure really what the difference is between -yu and -tu, other than -er and -ist in English, which seems to be the best analogy so far.

With your spe'etu example, however, the analogy breaks down.  Spe'etu isn't a "capturist" it's a captive, someone who has been captured.

It makes more sense with nouns, since in English that seems to be when the "-ist" suffix is applied (motorist, artist, pianist, violinist).  In English one could be an art-ist (noun-ist) and a paint-er (verb-er [probably a bad example, since paint is also a noun xD]).

Perhaps when "-tu" is added to a verb, it refers to the person/people commonly linked to such a verb, meaning it would be a somewhat rare occurance, where instead of meaning "One who <verbs>" it means "One who is <verb>ed."  Maybe with a word like tspang (to kill) you have tspangyu (killer) and perhaps tspangtu (homicide victim/kill) i.e.: "Hey, he was my kill!" | "Nang poan oeyä tspangtu lìmu!"

Not sure on this... but that's my 2¢.



msg=70474 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:09:59 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3553.msg70419#msg70419 date=1265050244]
It makes more sense with nouns, since in English that seems to be when the "-ist" suffix is applied (motorist, artist, pianist, violinist).  In English one could be an art-ist (noun-ist) and a paint-er (verb-er [probably a bad example, since paint is also a noun xD]).
[/quote]
Pretty sure there's actually no real rule for the choice of -er and -ist in English, just trends. You could spend all day listing examples... but I'll give two of my favourites. Builder - nice... verb+er = sorted! Roofer - noun+er awwww crap!!! ;)

However, that doesn't mean you not right about Na'vi.

Edit: Ok, I remember someone once saying that -ist came from Greek and so the choice was perhaps (a long time ago) based upon where the word in question originated from. In modern English, with "recently" created terms, I suspect this theory is now quite worthless in application. :)



msg=70508 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:25:07 | u=417

Re: Art related Vocab

Alìm Tsamsiyu

Ehhh - Roofer is a little bit of a stretch, "roof" can be used as a verb, a definition attested in many dictionaries as "to cover a building with a roof."

i.e.: "We're going to re-roof our house." "We chose to roof our house with metal roofing" (Heh, multiple uses!)



msg=70526 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:35:49 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3553.msg70508#msg70508 date=1265052307]
Ehhh - Roofer is a little bit of a stretch, "roof" can be used as a verb, a definition attested in many dictionaries as "to cover a building with a roof."
[/quote]
True... but it's from Old English hrof - a noun.

As to what came first, roofer or to roof, I have no idea. :D

I suspect -ist is more regular in it's application since all the big "ists" tend to be medical/science terms which were taken from Greek nouns anyway.



msg=70529 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:37:41 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3553.msg70508#msg70508 date=1265052307]
We chose to roof our house with metal roofing" (Heh, multiple uses!)
[/quote]
How about

"Our roofer chose to roof his house with metal roofing".

Roof + 1. :D



msg=70544 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:45:28 | u=54

Re: Art related Vocab

Tiger

Our dog went "roof" when the roofer tried to roof our house with metal roofing so we slipped him a rufie.



msg=70553 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:48:20 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3553.msg70544#msg70544 date=1265053528]
Our dog went "roof" when the roofer tried to roof our house with metal roofing so we slipped him a rufie.
[/quote]
...

Surely that's unbeatable!?!

Er... I think we're getting well off-topic here mind. :D



msg=70560 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:51:13 | u=54

Re: Art related Vocab

Tiger

We're just being lelì'utseo (Poetic - deriving lì'utseo as word-art/poetry).



msg=70561 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:51:24 | u=401

Re: Art related Vocab

Harìghawnu

???

[quote]Ma Pawl[/quote]

I guess, you mean Dr. Frommer. But what about the "Ma"?
Since you don't speak to him directly here, the vocative doesn't make sense, does it?

Besides that: Thank you for the words!



msg=70565 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:52:30 | u=54

Re: Art related Vocab

Tiger

We don't call him skxawng because he's clever with the language....

;D



msg=70585 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 20:02:53 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

Actually Alim, I'm going to somewhat change my mind on all this -er stuff... since just about every use of -er to refer to someone (who conducts or is interested in) that I can think of has it's root in a word attested in modernish English as both a noun and a verb (or in some cases just a verb).

It's just not a helpful language here - we seem to create verb forms for everything. :D Edit: Including to motor.

Now that I think about, the irregularites are more towards the use of -ist with more modern terms. But that one is understandable.



msg=70661 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 20:37:24 | u=4

Re: Art related Vocab

zombat

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3553.msg70565#msg70565 date=1265053950]
We don't call him skxawng because he's clever with the language....

;D
[/quote]

lol up yours ;D

Also I had the notion that perhaps -tu is similar to -ru and-ur, in that perhaps -tu is used when the last letter in a word is a vowel, instead of consonant.

hopefully we'll have clarification soon



msg=70831 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 21:55:44 | u=54

Re: Art related Vocab

Tiger

Taronyu - hunter
Tsamsiyu - warrior

One follows a consonant the other a vowel.



msg=70915 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:47:49 | u=73

Re: Art related Vocab

Prrton

[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg69990#msg69990 date=1265040180]
Been in communication with Pawl myself, I figured I'd add these to this area.

[quote=Pawl]
Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan!

fwa = fì'u a

[/quote]
New Vocab:

Fwa = That Which

[/quote]

Rutxe, awngur wìntu sìknongit tsa'lì'uyä san« fwa »sìk mìlì'olo hu aylì'u alahe sì tìralpeng.

  tKNg: San« Oe *pxiset new ivomum *terifwa nga trram ftxamey »sìkìri eyawr lu ke srak?

  e.g: Is "I want to know *right-now *about-that-which (="what") you selected yesterday" correct or not?

IRAYO!



msg=70935 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:59:51 | u=417

Re: Art related Vocab

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3553.msg70915#msg70915 date=1265064469]
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg69990#msg69990 date=1265040180]
Been in communication with Pawl myself, I figured I'd add these to this area.

[quote=Pawl]
Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan!

fwa = fì'u a

[/quote]
New Vocab:

Fwa = That Which

[/quote]

Rutxe, awngur wìntuknongit tsa'lì'uyä san« fwa »sìk mìlì'olo hu aylì'u alahe sì tìralpeng.

  tKNg: San« Oe *pxiset new ivomum *terifwa nga trram ftxamey »sìkìri eyawr lu ke srak?

  e.g: Is "I want to know *right-now *about-that-which (="what") you selected yesterday" correct or not?

IRAYO!

[/quote]

Oel tse'eia, fa oeyä nari ahì'i, me-t(x)aypot! :)
I spy, with my little eye, some typos!

Anyway - yeah it'd be nice if we had some more examples.. or should I say, exaples? exmples? xD



msg=71207 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:40:14 | u=4

Re: Art related Vocab

zombat

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3553.msg70915#msg70915 date=1265064469]
Rutxe, awngur wìntu sìknongit tsa'lì'uyä san« fwa »sìk mìlì'olo hu aylì'u alahe sì tìralpeng.

  tKNg: San« Oe *pxiset new ivomum *terifwa nga trram ftxamey »sìkìri eyawr lu ke srak?

  e.g: Is "I want to know *right-now *about-that-which (="what") you selected yesterday" correct or not?

IRAYO!

[/quote]

ke lu oeru kea aysìknongit alahe ftu fromrr, oe letsap'alute lu!




msg=71311 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:56:50 | u=1485

Re: Art related Vocab

Erimeyz

Canonificationized! [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Art-related_Vocabulary]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Art-related_Vocabulary[/url]

Art good.  Me like.  Make happy.

  - Eri



msg=71330 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:07:36 | u=1485

Re: Art related Vocab

Erimeyz

Regarding -tu vs. -yu.... I like the implication of taronyu one who does hunting "hunter", spe'etu one whom capture is done to "captive".

Where does that leave reltseotuReltseo-tu one whom visual art is done to "artist".  The implication being that in Na'vi, one does not "make" art... art is something that happens to you, i.e. you are inspired and moved by a creative spirit, the resulting artwork being almost an incidental by-product.

Just my two cents.  Almost certainly wrong.  But fun to contemplate.

  - Eri



msg=71352 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:24:56 | u=4

Re: Art related Vocab

zombat

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg71330#msg71330 date=1265083656]
Regarding -tu vs. -yu.... I like the implication of taronyu one who does hunting "hunter", spe'etu one whom capture is done to "captive".

Where does that leave reltseotuReltseo-tu one whom visual art is done to "artist".  The implication being that in Na'vi, one does not "make" art... art is something that happens to you, i.e. you are inspired and moved by a creative spirit, the resulting artwork being almost an incidental by-product.

Just my two cents.  Almost certainly wrong.  But fun to contemplate.

  - Eri

[/quote]
Interesting, but "one whom visual art is done to" sounds either like literally painting people, or the subject of a portrait, imo :P



msg=71700 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:06:45 | u=1120

Re: Art related Vocab

roger

Humans are possessed by their muse. Possible.



msg=72454 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:03:00 | u=4

Re: Art related Vocab

zombat

Resolution!
[quote=Pawl]About -tu vs. -yu: You're right--"yu" is an ending for a verb, converting it into the doer or agent, similar to English -er. "Tu," on the other hand, is short for "tute," person (as in Tawtute), and is generally used with parts of speech other than verbs.

So: for "reltseo" (as you know, rel 'image, picture' + tseo 'art'), we get "reltseotu," 'artist (lit. picture-art-person)'.

Likewise, from pamtseo 'music' we get pamtseotu, 'musician'.
[/quote]

:D:D:D:D

Pamtseotu
= Musician





msg=72462 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:06:34 | u=631

Re: Art related Vocab

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Uhm, just for personal clarification...

That means: -yu is always used with verbs
-tu with 'everything else'

I always thought: taronyu "hunter"
tarontu "the hunted one"

???



msg=72478 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:12:05 | u=558

Re: Art related Vocab

Coyote

Well, hell, we've been using "tesosiyu" in the RP, does that get left anything?

It is structured like tsamsiyu, after all, which was what I based it off of, "one who makes ___" (war, art, weaving, etc).



msg=72512 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:22:26 | u=21

Re: Art related Vocab

wm.annis

[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg72454#msg72454 date=1265130180]
Resolution![/quote]

Added to the Canon.

That puts spe'etu in a strange place, though.  Oh, well.  Who wants a perfectly regular language?



msg=73013 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:02:36 | u=1011

Re: Art related Vocab

Kiliyä

It could be that it is exactly like -er and -ist in English, and that we're seeing an "irregularity" in Na'vi.  I don't know why you guys are obsessed with clarifying and codifying every little example and making them fit your own thoughts about the language.  Why can't Na'vi have two agental suffixes?  Why can't it be a little odd in applying those suffixes to verbs vs. nouns or whatever?



msg=73183 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:44:37 | u=1485

Re: Art related Vocab

Erimeyz

[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=3553.msg73013#msg73013 date=1265144556]
It could be that it is exactly like -er and -ist in English, and that we're seeing an "irregularity" in Na'vi.  I don't know why you guys are obsessed with clarifying and codifying every little example and making them fit your own thoughts about the language.  Why can't Na'vi have two agental suffixes?  Why can't it be a little odd in applying those suffixes to verbs vs. nouns or whatever?
[/quote]

I don't think anyone wants to make things fit their own thoughts, or to make Na'vi perfectly regular.

Some of us are obsessed with clarifying and codifying every little example so that we can learn to speak Na'vi correctly - the way Frommer says to - irregularities and all.

Some of us enjoy speculating about things we don't yet know, in anticipation of eventually knowing them.

  - Eri



msg=73209 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:51:43 | u=1011

Re: Art related Vocab

Kiliyä

I understand.  I want to use Na'vi correctly too, but it just seems laboured after a while to debate these tiny little points when really, we have so little to go on.  For all we know, Na'vi may have synonyms!  Wouldn't that throw a spanner in the works in the beginner board?  "What's the difference between x and y?" "Nothing." "Oh.  Okay."  There'd be 100s of those threads!  When I was starting out with Na'vi, I used to get frustrated when people would answer an honest inquiry with "we don't know."  But I get it now, and I think it's the best response most of the time!  Maybe we should put it in our sigs: "We don't know the majority of what you're going to ask.  Please read these and then ask anyway."



msg=73553 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 01:28:16 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3553.msg72462#msg72462 date=1265130394]
That means: -yu is always used with verbs
-tu with 'everything else'

I always thought: taronyu "hunter"
tarontu "the hunted one"

???
[/quote]
But taron is only a verb right? Where did tarontu come from?

I've seen nothing to indicate to that -tu is really the object of the word affixes to i.e. the object of the hunting = the hunted.

Not directed at you Plumps, but people will try to analyse the tiny fragments of information we have and attribute regular rules to them because the Na'vi corpus is too small to do much else. There is not thousands of years of history and usage behind this language with millions of speakers alive and deceased.... there is two months of public usage and 1 speaker who himself hasn't made it all up yet. If we don't debate the little points looking for answers then at this stage, we might as well all give up completely.



msg=73834 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 08:08:06 | u=195

Re: Art related Vocab

esoanem

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3553.msg72512#msg72512 date=1265131346]
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg72454#msg72454 date=1265130180]
Resolution![/quote]

Added to the Canon.

That puts spe'etu in a strange place, though.  Oh, well.  Who wants a perfectly regular language?
[/quote]

I don't see why it need be. Frommer says that it is mainly used on parts of speech other than verbs. If it was used on a verb it would mean the same as taron and lead to redundancy which doesn't seem to be liked very much in na'vi (effectual infixes getting dropped and the like) so it could very easily have evolved a seperate form for verbs.

The way I'm thinking of it is that -tu means someone who makes ____ for nouns or adjectives but means someone who is _____ for verbs.



msg=74365 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 14:43:02 | u=631

Re: Art related Vocab

Plumps83

[quote author=Eight link=topic=3553.msg73553#msg73553 date=1265160496]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3553.msg72462#msg72462 date=1265130394]
That means: -yu is always used with verbs
-tu with 'everything else'

I always thought: taronyu "hunter"
tarontu "the hunted one"
[/quote]
But taron is only a verb right? Where did tarontu come from?

I've seen nothing to indicate to that -tu is really the object of the word affixes to i.e. the object of the hunting = the hunted.

Not directed at you Plumps, but people will try to analyse the tiny fragments of information we have and attribute regular rules to them because the Na'vi corpus is too small to do much else. There is not thousands of years of history and usage behind this language with millions of speakers alive and deceased.... there is two months of public usage and 1 speaker who himself hasn't made it all up yet. If we don't debate the little points looking for answers then at this stage, we might as well all give up completely.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]No hard feelings, ma Eight

I 'derived' it from spe'etu - captive where spe'e is given as a verb. Logical assumption... I thought. But I very much stand corrected if you think that we cannot make such conjectures.

Irayo :)



msg=75103 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 20:25:18 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

:)

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3553.msg74365#msg74365 date=1265208182]
I 'derived' it from spe'etu - captive where spe'e is given as a verb. Logical assumption... I thought. But I very much stand corrected if you think that we cannot make such conjectures.
[/quote]
I think Dr. Frommer has now said that -yu is for attaching to verbs to create a noun for the agent, and -tu is for attaching to "everything" else.

Which does leave "spe'etu" in a strange place right now - I can't help wondering if there's something about spe'e itself that we're missing. E.g. are we sure it's a verb? :D Was just checking whether tarontu was published anywhere.

I liked the theory about -tu though. It would have been a cool suffix to have right now.



msg=75402 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 00:30:27 | u=664

Re: Art related Vocab

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Eight link=topic=3553.msg75103#msg75103 date=1265228718]
:)

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3553.msg74365#msg74365 date=1265208182]
I 'derived' it from spe'etu - captive where spe'e is given as a verb. Logical assumption... I thought. But I very much stand corrected if you think that we cannot make such conjectures.
[/quote]
I think Dr. Frommer has now said that -yu is for attaching to verbs to create a noun for the agent, and -tu is for attaching to "everything" else.

Which does leave "spe'etu" in a strange place right now - I can't help wondering if there's something about spe'e itself that we're missing. E.g. are we sure it's a verb? :D Was just checking whether tarontu was published anywhere.

I liked the theory about -tu though. It would have been a cool suffix to have right now.
[/quote]

Spe'eyu would be "Captor", srak?  Spe'etu makes sense to me, it is not the "doer or agent" and -tu is "generally used with parts of speech other than verbs" -- there's not a hard rule against it, so whats the problem with "capture-person" being "captive"? :)

-Keyl



msg=75433 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 01:17:25 | u=1485

Re: Art related Vocab

Erimeyz

So... tseotu art-person "artist".

I wonder if you could, conversationally, get a little convoluted and refer to an artist as tseo siyu art-make/do-agent "artist", in order to stress that (perhaps at the moment) he is actually making art, i.e. casting him in an agentive role rather than merely as an associated person.

Tseo siyu hahaw.  art-make/do-agent sleeps.  "The art-maker sleeps."

Subtext: "Bob, who is an artist, hasn't done all that much lately, but today he was busy all day actually making art for a change, and it wore him out, so he's sleeping, finally, thank Eywa."

... or maybe I'm [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/pragmatics/]being too pragmatic[/url].

  - Eri



msg=75464 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 01:47:34 | u=664

Re: Art related Vocab

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg75433#msg75433 date=1265246245]
So... tseotu art-person "artist".

I wonder if you could, conversationally, get a little convoluted and refer to an artist as tseo siyu art-make/do-agent "artist", in order to stress that (perhaps at the moment) he is actually making art, i.e. casting him in an agentive role rather than merely as an associated person.

Tseo siyu hahaw.  art-make/do-agent sleeps.  "The art-maker sleeps."

Subtext: "Bob, who is an artist, hasn't done all that much lately, but today he was busy all day actually making art for a change, and it wore him out, so he's sleeping, finally, thank Eywa."

... or maybe I'm [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/pragmatics/]being too pragmatic[/url].

  - Eri

[/quote]

They are *probably* both grammatically correct, but it all depends on what the common usage is, which I'm assuming Dr. Frommer gave us.  Like in Japanese you could say 芸術する人(geijyutsu-suru-hito) art-do(ing)-person and people would understand you, but the more "correct" word would be 芸術家(geijyutsuka) art-ist.  I'm sure to the native speaker there might be some difference in connotation, but we would need a lot more "native" speakers of Na'vi to start speculating about it, me thinks.

-Keyl



msg=75572 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 03:39:50 | u=21

Re: Art related Vocab

wm.annis

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3553.msg75464#msg75464 date=1265248054]Like in Japanese you could say 芸術する人(geijyutsu-suru-hito) art-do(ing)-person and people would understand you, but the more "correct" word would be 芸術家(geijyutsuka) art-ist. [/quote]

This is a very important general point, actually.  Fluency, as measured by governments, for example, often makes an effort to take into account the ability to make yourself clearly understood even if you might not know all the most exact words for the situation.  This is the great power of language.  Using Na'vi is probably always going to require this skill.



msg=75841 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 08:21:57 | u=73

Re: Art related Vocab

Prrton

I really don't see the problem with -yu and -tu when attached to verbs paralleling -er and -ee in English and then -tu doing something slightly different elsewhere.

 spe'eyu (captor)

 spe'etu (captive)

 reltseotu (visual artist)

It doesn't cause a conundrum for me, whether the pattern is regular with all nouns or not. It would be nice if it were, but... We cope with much stranger exceptions in English all the time. The -ist that Keyl was mentioning in Japanese (e.6) is also the written word (Chinese derivational morpheme) for "family" and "house" and is homophonous in modern Japanese with the words for "fire, day, section..." all pronounced "ka" and generally (but not always) occurring at the same "word final" position as -tu and -yu in Na'vi. We just need to be careful about deriving and neologizing with word final -tu with nouns (and verbs for that matter) until we understand it better. We don't want to end up with words sounding like "bakist, librarier, baby-sittian" etc. I do LOVE the word ネイリスト ("nail-ist") in Japanese though. Talk about neologisms out of control! Txantslan!  8)



msg=76897 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 19:35:17 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3553.msg75402#msg75402 date=1265243427]
there's not a hard rule against it, so whats the problem with "capture-person" being "captive"? :)
[/quote]
I don't have any problem with it at all - in fact I like it this way - but I'd prefer to see something official about -tu refering to the affected person if used with a verb.

Or whether it's irregular / mistake etc. etc.



msg=77050 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 20:49:34 | u=1485

Re: Art related Vocab

Erimeyz

[quote author=Eight link=topic=3553.msg76897#msg76897 date=1265312117]
I don't have any problem with it at all - in fact I like it this way - but I'd prefer to see something official about -tu refering to the affected person if used with a verb.
[/quote]

Well, that's kinda what he said:

[quote]
About -tu vs. -yu: You're right--"yu" is an ending for a verb, converting it into the doer or agent, similar to English -er. "Tu," on the other hand, is short for "tute," person (as in Tawtute), and is generally used with parts of speech other than verbs.
[/quote]

"generally" used with non-verbs means "sometimes" used with verbs.  And I don't think you can get much clearer than "Tu is short for tute, person".  So a compound formed with X-tu means X-person... and X-person means whatever it means.  Maybe agent, maybe subject, maybe interested person... probably no way to know except on a case-by-case basis.

  - Eri



msg=77109 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 21:23:39 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg77050#msg77050 date=1265316574]
Well, that's kinda what he said:
[/quote]
If you mean "kinda" in the sense of not addressing the key bit, then yes. :)

Quite clearly -tu could be used with verbs but that's all I've seen so far. I'm only saying that I'd prefer another example or two (or confirmation) of what the effect is.

Especially since that, only in my own opinion, if verb+tu meant (or could mean) the affected/interested party then I don't think "generally used with parts of speech other than verbs" would be right. Because surely this would be quite a common thing to use?



msg=77259 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 22:35:59 | u=1485

Re: Art related Vocab

Erimeyz

[quote author=Eight link=topic=3553.msg77109#msg77109 date=1265318619]
Especially since that, only in my own opinion, if verb+tu meant (or could mean) the affected/interested party then I don't think "generally used with parts of speech other than verbs" would be right. Because surely this would be quite a common thing to use?
[/quote]

You know, that's a great point.  Why wouldn't it be common with verbs?  Maybe there's not that many verbs where "associated person" means anything other than "doer"?  So most verbs just take -yu, with -tu being "technically" correct but actually wrong, like "law-ist" or "piano-er"?

  - Eri



msg=77280 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 22:58:26 | u=1244

Re: Art related Vocab

Eight

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg77259#msg77259 date=1265322959]
Maybe there's not that many verbs where "associated person" means anything other than "doer"? 
[/quote]
In English I could think of a lot of verbs where you'd have a literal verb+er and verb+ee (eg. employer, employee) and you could in theory have less literal pairs like hunter/huntee (prey)... but something like this might not be so acceptable in Na'vi (and it might not be very common in other languages, I'll be the first admit my studies of languages beyond Europe is patchy at best).

But it is a good question - is there something about spe'e that I'm missing which might explain why spe'eyu is probably a captor and spe'etu a captive, but that the application of this combination might not be appropriate for other transitive verbs taking people as objects.

Aaaarrrggghhh. Oeyä eltu hurts. :D



msg=80626 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:26:32 | u=2873

Re: Art related Vocab

Skyinou

From what we know about the Na'vi people, I would say "yu" is simply honorific and "tu" is a fact.

Taronyu: That'is not exactly "one who hunt", but more a grown person who finished his initiation.
And "spe'etu and tseotu are "people who do these things", being captive or art.

Of course it make being an artist somewhat lower than a hunter, which sounds really bad. But I see that more like you can be both. Depending of if you can live within the clan being only an artist, without becoming "Taronyu" or equivalent.



msg=80633 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:29:56 | u=21

Re: Art related Vocab

wm.annis

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3553.msg80626#msg80626 date=1265473592]From what we know about the Na'vi people, I would say "yu" is simply honorific and "tu" is a fact.[/quote]

Frommer has explicitly stated that he didn't try to work a world-view into the grammar of the language.  From the [url=http://www.ugo.com/movies/paul-frommer-interview]UGO interview[/url]

[quote]
Jordan Hoffman: Well, this leads to an actual question – the Na’vi philosophy is a very natural, holistic way of life. Those blue suckers are very green. Did this in any way inform the construction of the language?

Paul Frommer: No. Only with certain concepts that I knew needed to be in there like “Tree of Souls” or “Hometree” and some of the religious concepts of Eowah. Otherwise, no, I just wanted exotic sounds to the Western ear – the ejectives the [proceeds clicking and making beat box sounds] and something fun for the audience. There is really no connection between the grammatical structure or aural quality of a language with the culture of a people.
[/quote]



msg=80667 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:44:47 | u=2873

Re: Art related Vocab

Skyinou

I don't think this goes against what I suggested. Since there are words like "uniltaron" which refers directly to something special needed for becoming "taronyu".
Dr. Frommer did said there is no connection with grammar and culture, but there is no way to create a full language without thinking of the people who use it.
There we are more on the "vocabulary" part, which is more connected to the people, than the grammar. In my opinion, he said that to mention Na'vi is a full grown language, not a kind of "love-tree simple-minded way of speaking".
I may be wrong, of course. :P



msg=80728 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:27:42 | u=1485

Re: Art related Vocab

Erimeyz

The reason there's so much tree-hugger hippie crap in the current vocabulary is because Frommer only created words as needed to translate the script.  So Frommer developed the language, but the selection of words making up the lexicon is entirely due to Cameron.

  - Eri



msg=81125 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 21:25:46 | u=195

Re: Art related Vocab

esoanem

I've just been thinking about pamtseo and reltseo and thought, given that specific artforms seem to be made by compounding the word for the medium with tseo, mightn't poetry be lì'utseo or word-art?



msg=81164 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 21:37:51 | u=1485

Re: Art related Vocab

Erimeyz

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3553.msg81125#msg81125 date=1265491546]
I've just been thinking about pamtseo and reltseo and thought, given that specific artforms seem to be made by compounding the word for the medium with tseo, mightn't poetry be lì'utseo or word-art?
[/quote]

It certainly might be.  But lì'utseo could mean storytelling instead, or perhaps the Na'vi don't see a distinction between the two forms of art, or perhaps they only have one or the other.  We know they have songs, and they have a separate word for them.  What we consider poetry they may just think of as a song without music.

I would use lì'utseo for anything that I considered "word-art", until we get more words or more specific definitions.

  - Eri



msg=85446 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:12:37 | u=73

Re: Art related Vocab

Prrton

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg81164#msg81164 date=1265492271]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3553.msg81125#msg81125 date=1265491546]
I've just been thinking about pamtseo and reltseo and thought, given that specific artforms seem to be made by compounding the word for the medium with tseo, mightn't poetry be lì'utseo or word-art?
[/quote]

It certainly might be.  But lì'utseo could mean storytelling instead, or perhaps the Na'vi don't see a distinction between the two forms of art, or perhaps they only have one or the other.  We know they have songs, and they have a separate word for them.  What we consider poetry they may just think of as a song without music.

I would use lì'utseo for anything that I considered "word-art", until we get more words or more specific definitions.

  - Eri

[/quote]

Merllte



msg=70886 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:31:03 | u=21

Combining our efforts

wm.annis

I'll admit it.  I'm a conlang fanboy.  Getting direct email from Frommer doesn't quite make me squeal, but it's nice to get them.  However, the poor guy does have a day job, too.  Might it make sense for use to collect our questions into a single bunch, so he doesn't have to deal with the same issues over and over?

I have lots and lots of questions, but I'll stick with these two for now.

First, is this correct: po kä a tseng(ne) ke tsìme'a oel I didn't see where s/he was going.

Second, regarding adpositions.  When they follow, they are written attached to the word.  Can we assume this means they are enclitic, and have no stress accent of their own?  Is the accent obliterated in two syllable adpostions, as in eyktanmungwrr?



msg=70906 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:42:12 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

Good idea.

As for questions, there is a burning one: atan!?



msg=70910 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:45:51 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

I'd like to know about double negatives...  Is it required for the subject to agree with the verb in negation, or does that just emphasize the negative?  And how does the copula enter into it?  Would it be correct to say "Oe ke lu kea 'eveng" or would the kea there be incorrect?  Could "Oe lu kea 'eveng" be used rather than "Oe ke lu 'eveng", or would the former be considered incorrect?

(And oddly, I was just thinking about the question of atan this morning.)



msg=70920 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:52:00 | u=664

Re: Combining our efforts

Keyltstxatsmen

Well if anyone does become the "Locutus" of this group, please get word stresses if possible when getting answers for other things.  For a verbal-only language, I find it weird that people are ignoring all the gaps we have in this info. 

-Keyl




msg=70923 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:53:09 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg70920#msg70920 date=1265064720]
Well if anyone does become the "Locutus" of this group, please get word stresses if possible when getting answers for other things. [/quote]

Srane, rutxe!



msg=71217 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:50:20 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Also, if someone decides to email and include the current set of questions, RUTXE let us know here before you do it, so he doesn't get 5 duplicate emails.



msg=71250 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:23:41 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Something else I'd like to know...

Can "po" be used for 3rd person inanimate objects (it)...



msg=71253 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:29:12 | u=1317

Re: Combining our efforts

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

I got one, how about a word for "funny" and I mean actual funny, like haha funny, it gets tiring hearing people constantly make fun of hìyìk for it sounding like hiyuk.



msg=71257 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:32:26 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

I just recalled one.  Wait.  Two.

is "in."  What is "into"?  Is there some systematic way to create adpositions of location, destination and source from what we have now?  Mìso and neto are maybe hints (although adverbial hints).

And how do we get adverbial adpositions?  "I go in."




msg=71266 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:35:41 | u=1317

Re: Combining our efforts

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Getting some words for emotions would be nice.



msg=71269 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:36:16 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Ooh ooh!

And how do we express location in a generic sense when "in" does not make sense?  "I am at Iknimaya" vs "I am IN Iknimaya"



msg=71272 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:36:52 | u=365

Re: Combining our efforts

Doolio

-this question just crossed my mind - multiple vocatives. do we treat them like a cluster (ma smukan, smuke si eveng) or not (ma smukan, ma smuke si ma eveng)? although i am pretty sure that it's the latter. also, the rules for placing the vocative particle in particular situations (i noticed that frommer wrote something like "ma oeyä smukan")...

-also the "toruk makto" phenomenon, and the "maweya tsmukan" phenomenon:)

nothing else for now, my brain is empty...



msg=71280 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:42:30 | u=1317

Re: Combining our efforts

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Another question. Are Na'vi names created the way we've been doing them (taking vocab words) or some other way they come up with na'vi names. (other than na'vi-izing your real name)



msg=71289 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:46:59 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg70886#msg70886 date=1265063463]
However, the poor guy does have a day job, too.
[/quote]

Not really.  He's a college professor.

  - Eri

(kidding, kidding!)



msg=71315 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:59:49 | u=2325

Re: Combining our efforts

suomichris

Two words:

Evi. Dentials.

If/when this list of questions does get sent to him, I'd suggest it be from someone with some background in linguistics, since it might make the phrasing/explication of the questions a bit easier for Frommer--Or, at least, check all of the wording of the questions here so we can get the message stream-lined and easy for him to deal with.

Also, I've seen quite a few uses of things derived from "tsa-" on here, presumably based on parallels with English "that," but I don't think Frommer has used such a thing...  Are all of the subordinators derived from "fì" rather than "tsa-"?



msg=71358 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:27:53 | u=4

Re: Combining our efforts

zombat

for I would kill for a word for 'For'



msg=71361 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:29:35 | u=2325

Re: Combining our efforts

suomichris

[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3577.msg71358#msg71358 date=1265084873]
for I would kill for a word for 'For'
[/quote]What kind of "for"?  We have a bunch of words for this...



msg=71418 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 05:22:39 | u=4

Re: Combining our efforts

zombat


how about all of them :P

preferably at least a conjunction form :)



msg=71435 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 05:37:28 | u=2325

Re: Combining our efforts

suomichris

[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3577.msg71418#msg71418 date=1265088159]

how about all of them :P

preferably at least a conjunction form :)
[/quote]Uh... Can you give some examples of what kind of "for" you want?  I have a nasty headache, so maybe I'm being really dense, but I can't think of a "for" that we don't have a Na'vi word for...



msg=71608 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 08:44:27 | u=1244

Re: Combining our efforts

Eight

If anyone is speaking to Dr. Frommer about some of the more important points being mentioned in this thread, maybe you could slip in a small request for a noun for pain/suffering.

It's all I ask.

Well I would also ask that he clears up what happens to adjectives beginning with ' or a vowel when you add the attributive marker to the front. But mainly I just want my little noun.



msg=71622 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 09:28:21 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Here is what I see so far...  I'm leaving a few off here, explanation to follow.

[quote]General
1. Is this correct: po kä a tseng(ne) ke tsìme'a oel I didn't see where s/he was going.([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])

2. From your examples Na'vi seems to use double negatives as a negative.  Is is required that the subject agree with the verb in negativity, or is it merely used as an extra emphasis?  How does this work with equative statements (IE I am not your friend - does lu get the negative, 'eylan ngayä, either, or both?  Does oe enter into the negation at all?)

3. Are the third person pronouns specifically for animate objects, or can they be used as "it" to refer to inanimate objects?

4. Are multiple vocatives clustered (ma smukan sì smuke) or not (ma smukan sì ma smuke)?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])

5. Does the vocative always come before the noun and all modifiers including adjectives and genitives, or is it just before the head noun?  Is it always a particle or can it ever be used as a suffix/enclitic?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])

6. Can be ommitted (smukan, smuke sì eylan) or must it always be given (smukan sì smuke sì eylan)?

7. In toruk makto it seems like it should be maktoyu.  Aside from "James Cameron Said So" is there a reason it is not?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])

8. What are the evidential forms?

9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt with when the attributive is used?  Do other vowels need any special treatment with the attributive?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])

10. In general, do any affixes cause the stress in a word to shift, or is the fem. tuté purely due to the contraction of two "e" vowels?

11. In English we use the present perfect to indicate experience (among many other things), as in, "I have eaten jellyfish."  Mandarin uses the particle guo (过).  What's the correct way to do this in Na'vi?

Adpositions
1. Regarding adpositions.  When they follow, they are written attached to the word.  Can we assume this means they are enclitic, and have no stress accent of their own?  Is the accent obliterated in two syllable adpostions, as in eyktanmungwrr?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])

2. The adposition is "in."  What is "into"?  Is there some systematic way to create adpositions of location, destination and source from what we have now?  Mìso and neto are maybe hints (although adverbial hints).

3. How do we get adverbial adpositions?  For example, "I go in."

Vocabulary
1. Does the word atan mean light as in "adj. luminous", "adj. not heavy" or "n. illumination"? ([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/atan-lucet-in-tenebris/"]answered[/url])

2. Words for concepts like someone, something, somewhere, someway, sometime/somewhen.
A suggestion from one of our community members, based on calquing horribly with a mutant hybrid of Greek and Mandarin would be...
lu hrr a sanhìt nìn oel.  There are times (when) I look at the stars.
lu fayu a oeru prrte' lu  There are these (things) which are a pleasure to me.

3. Words for concepts like anyone, anything, anywhere, etc...  "It is something that anyone can create." or "You can bring anything you want."

4. Desired vocabulary:
Dark/darkness
End
Remember/memory
Colors besides blue & yellow
Funny (As in humorous, not strange)
Joke
Various emotions (Happy, sad, etc)
Pain/suffering or related words[/quote]

Does that sound like a fair summary?  Did I word everyone's questions appropriately?  (Suomichris I'm not sure how to word your tsa- and fì- bit...  It sounds more like just off handed thoughts rather than actual questions.)  Wm., do you think it would be a good idea to include what it is about that sentence you're asking is correct?  (I think I know the answer, but not sure I know the right words to describe it.)

These are comments on things I did not include in this list.  I'm not opposed to including them if we feel it's important, but I think these are questions that we already have answers for, or have a fairly firm foundation for believing our answer is correct.

Eight, I left out the part about glottal stops & the attributive because it should not make a difference.  The glottal stop is just a consonant sound.

Na'vi names: That may be more of a Cameron question than a Frommer question, I'm not sure how many names Frommer actually created.  That said, I don't know about others on the forum, but I wasn't aiming for the name of a Na'vi, I was just aiming for something in Na'vi to identify me.

Maweya tsmukan: It is my belief there is no "phenomenon" there to be explained.  "Maweya" has nearly identical pronunciation to "Ma oeyä" which fits perfectly in with other things we've seen.

Rules for placing vocative: It seems pretty consistent, when you're talking to someone, you use "ma" when you name them by something aside from a personal pronoun.  Included a question just to clarify the assumptions I was making based on observations.



msg=71692 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 10:56:24 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71622#msg71622 date=1265102901]
Maweya tsmukan: It is my belief there is no "phenomenon" there to be explained.  "Maweya" has nearly identical pronunciation to "Ma oeyä" which fits perfectly in with other things we've seen.

Rules for placing vocative: It seems pretty consistent, when you're talking to someone, you use "ma" when you name them by something aside from a personal pronoun.
[/quote]
The phenomenon with "maweyä" is that the stress shifts with inflection. That's the question to ask: does the stress shift in any other word other that those derived from ''oe''? In general, do any affixes cause stress to shift, or is fem. tuté due to the contraction of the two e vowels? (This might be partially answered with the a-adjectives.) Is there a generalization for which word gets stress in a compound?

For the vocative, we've only seen it as a prep / particle, but that doesn't mean it can't occur as a suffix / enclitic. It might be worth asking (though a minor point, not important.)

Frommer has been working on a good illustration of the evidential. That wasn't s.t. he wanted to answer offhand, and which he'd probably want a dedicated email for. But I'd certainly be happy if he were to answer it here.



msg=71695 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:01:16 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Have a ref for the "maweya" stress shift?  I must have missed that one.



msg=71696 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:03:22 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71695#msg71695 date=1265108476]
Have a ref for the "maweya" stress shift?  I must have missed that one.
[/quote]
It's in the dictionary thread. There are like 8 lines of evidence.



msg=71786 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 12:09:26 | u=365

Re: Combining our efforts

Doolio

about vocative, i didn't mean in sense when it is used, but more like where should i put the vocative particle "physicaly" when i have something that affects the noun. in the frommer's example "ma oeyä smukan" we see that the vocative particle doesn't go directly in front of a noun (oeyä ma smukan). i mean, is there a general rule to this, how to cope with multiple adjectives/possessions etc.
as for "you use "ma" when you name them by something aside from a personal pronoun.", i don't know. i mean, when you use personal pronouns, you don't actually address the listener by that pronoun - "i love you" is practically the same as "i love her", or something. "i love you, john" demands "john" to be in vocative, but not "you" (which is in accusative). i don't know what to think of the actual direct addressing by the pronoun - "hey, you!" for example.



msg=71810 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 12:27:56 | u=1244

Re: Combining our efforts

Eight

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71622#msg71622 date=1265102901]
Eight, I left out the part about glottal stops & the attributive because it should not make a difference.  The glottal stop is just a consonant sound.
[/quote]
Oh that's fine - you're quite right. My post came out the way it did from working on the Firefox dictionary where I'm seeing entries like aalaksì, aapxa, a'awve etc. and wasn't really sure what to make of it all, but didn't spend an overly long time thinking about it to be honest.



msg=72110 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 14:45:50 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71622#msg71622 date=1265102901]Wm., do you think it would be a good idea to include what it is about that sentence you're asking is correct? [/quote]

I think he'd grok where the question was coming from.  I'm hoping for more fun with phrases adverbialized with the help of a, with a sneaky question about how to distinguish the relatives where, whither, whence.



msg=72261 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 15:38:05 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

Let me voice a contrarian view... or perhaps a complementarian view.

I think everyone should be emailing Frommer directly.  If you have a question you really wish he would answer, you should ask him yourself.  It's your question, after all... of all the things we don't know, and of all the people who want to know things, your question is the one you care most about, and you are the one who cares most about it.  You'll do the best job asking it, and Frommer's answer (should he give one) will mean the most when directed back to you, replying to your words in your email.

There's no reason for the Learn Na'vi Community to collect questions and have them sent in one batch by the designated Speaker to Frommer and then reposted (appropriately redacted, of course) to the hungry masses.  If you have an itch, scratch it!  Eywa gave you hands, use them!  Use all five fingers even, you crazy demons you.

I think we can combine our efforts, however, and I think it's important to do so.  But I suggest a different method.  Before you ask your question:

1) Make sure we don't have an answer yet!  Ask it on the forum... like, say, in this very thread... and see if anyone can shed some light that you may have otherwise missed.

2) Let everyone know you want to know!  Add your question to [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Open_Questions]the list of open questions[/url] on the wiki.

3) When you get a reply, share it with the group!  Post relevant excerpts on a new forum thread so we can all discuss it.  If you're so inclined, add it to [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]the canon page[/url] on the wiki.  If not, no big deal, someone will do it for you sooner or later after you post to the forum.

There's room for both approaches, which is why I say this is a "complementarian" view.  I think discussing questions in a thread like this is a good thing, and if someone wants to bundle them all up and ask them all at once, well, okay.  But I'd hate for anyone to think that that's the only way we can approach Karyu Pawl.  I'm confident that he's quite capable of managing his own email inbox (even with as busy as it's gotten lately), and I suspect that he'd be delighted to hear from each and every one of his students, individually.

  - Eri



msg=72272 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 15:44:25 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg72261#msg72261 date=1265125085]There's no reason for the Learn Na'vi Community to collect questions and have them sent in one batch by the designated Speaker to Frommer and then reposted (appropriately redacted, of course) to the hungry masses. [/quote]

Um.

Or, you know... we could ask him.  In interviews he has used the word "swamped" to describe his inbox.



msg=72317 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 16:09:35 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg72272#msg72272 date=1265125465]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg72261#msg72261 date=1265125085]There's no reason for the Learn Na'vi Community to collect questions and have them sent in one batch by the designated Speaker to Frommer and then reposted (appropriately redacted, of course) to the hungry masses. [/quote]

Um.

Or, you know... we could ask him.  In interviews he has used the word "swamped" to describe his inbox.
[/quote]

True.

Recently, though, he seems to be a lot more responsive then he used to be, no?  I suspect that indicates not just an increased ability to maintain correspondence, but also an outright enthusiasm for doing so.  But you're right, we could ask him.  So consider this my submission for the group questionnaire: "Do you like getting email from individual Na'vi students asking questions, or would you prefer to get them from a group all at once, like this?"

 - Eri



msg=72620 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 18:01:23 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

It's a shame I sent an email to him about an hour before this thread went up.

Oh well, it had about fourteen questions in it, any more and he would have been swamped by my email alone.  ;D

As for contributions I've remembered one that I forgot to put in my email which was "what is the equivalent phrase of "you're welcome"?"

Oh yeah, and the word for some so that we can say things like someone (probably tute or 'awpo), something, somewhere, someway, sometime/somewhen.



msg=72860 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 19:55:28 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg72620#msg72620 date=1265133683]Oh yeah, and the word for some so that we can say things like someone (probably tute or 'awpo), something, somewhere, someway, sometime/somewhen.[/quote]

I made a crazy suggestion for that [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/my-dictionary/msg72677/#msg72677]over here[/url].  It's not inherently implausible, so perhaps Frommer can bless or curse it as he sees fit.

Another one.  In English we use the present perfect to indicate experience (among many other things), as in, "I have eaten jellyfish."  Mandarin uses the particle guo (过).  What's the correct way to do this in Na'vi?



msg=72929 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 20:25:40 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=3577.msg71696#msg71696 date=1265108602]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71695#msg71695 date=1265108476]
Have a ref for the "maweya" stress shift?  I must have missed that one.
[/quote]
It's in the dictionary thread. There are like 8 lines of evidence.
[/quote]I was asking for a reference not evidence.  Evidence implies I'm asking you to prove something, which I'm not.  I'm just asking for a reference...  However pointing to such a long thread doesn't really help as a reference, can you be more specific and point out a post about it?



msg=72973 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 20:42:11 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Doolio, I'm still not seeing how what you're asking about vocatives isn't already exemplified by canon material.  "ma" has always come in front of the full noun phrase describing who is being addressed in the written examples we have.  And it has always been given when the person being addressed is described.  Furthermore it has never been used on pronouns (IE never "ma nga" or "ma fìtute").  The only thing which could be unclear about it is if you need to repeat it for every member of a group of people you are addressing and naming off, and if it can come as a suffix like an adposition as roger asked.  It's possible that could be drawing conclusions from something that is just common use and not a rule, but it has been pretty consistent.  I guess it wouldn't hurt to summarize those assumptions and ask if it is correct.

Tìkawngä mungeyu, nothing wrong with that.  Just be sure to let us know if you asked any of the questions here so it can be crossed off.

One thing I noticed as I was compiling a list was that it was a long list...  I think asking Frommer how he wants such questions (Small groups from multiple people, small groups from one person, or all at once) would be prudent.  Having a huge list doesn't really save much time for him over simply just coordinating on not asking the same question, and it carries the additional burden that he may feel like he needs to answer all the questions at once.

Edit: Updated the list with additional questions/clarifications.



msg=73017 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:04:39 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

-yu vs. -tu



msg=73102 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:29:32 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

I thought -yu vs -tu was resolved now in the art vocab thread?  Unless you're wanting to know why captive is an exception...



msg=73396 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 22:56:31 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg73102#msg73102 date=1265146172]
I thought -yu vs -tu was resolved now in the art vocab thread?  Unless you're wanting to know why captive is an exception...
[/quote]
Sorry, I hadn't seen F's answer.



msg=73402 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 22:58:34 | u=417

Re: Combining our efforts

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg72929#msg72929 date=1265142340]
[quote author=roger link=topic=3577.msg71696#msg71696 date=1265108602]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71695#msg71695 date=1265108476]
Have a ref for the "maweya" stress shift?  I must have missed that one.
[/quote]
It's in the dictionary thread. There are like 8 lines of evidence.
[/quote]I was asking for a reference not evidence.  Evidence implies I'm asking you to prove something, which I'm not.  I'm just asking for a reference...  However pointing to such a long thread doesn't really help as a reference, can you be more specific and point out a post about it?
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure he's referring to a mistaken transcription of ma oeyä tsmukan when Neytìri is finishing off the viperwolf.  This has been resolved and need not be asked of awngeyä karyu.



msg=73414 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 23:04:04 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=3577.msg73396#msg73396 date=1265151391]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg73102#msg73102 date=1265146172]
I thought -yu vs -tu was resolved now in the art vocab thread?  Unless you're wanting to know why captive is an exception...
[/quote]
Sorry, I hadn't seen F's answer.
[/quote]No worries, it was a pretty recent post.

But it does leave tsamsiyu (Why not tsamtu) and spe'etu (It shuld be obvious why this isn't spe'eyu) as irregularities.  Not that there's anything wrong with that...[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3577.msg73402#msg73402 date=1265151514]
I'm pretty sure he's referring to a mistaken transcription of ma oeyä tsmukan when Neytìri is finishing off the viperwolf.  This has been resolved and need not be asked of awngeyä karyu.
[/quote]That was my reading as well, which I'd already addressed in my comments, but I did try looking for a "mawey" stress shift and found no comments about such a thing.



msg=73640 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 03:25:26 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

As long as we're asking about atan, how about dark and darkness.  And along the same lines, how about all the colors?  Maybe even sunrise/sunset?

As you can tell I'm in a very visual mindset right now :)



msg=73679 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 04:08:47 | u=430

Re: Combining our efforts

TehMightyPirate

Forgive me if it's been mentioned already but do we have a way to say "end" yet? If not, that would be a good one too.



msg=73831 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 08:02:27 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg72973#msg72973 date=1265143331]
Tìkawngä mungeyu, nothing wrong with that.  Just be sure to let us know if you asked any of the questions here so it can be crossed off.

[/quote]

I don't think any of them have been asked yet but I'll be sure to post the reply up when I get it.

Edit: thought of another question: how does pey work? Is it like in Spanish where it takes a direct object, does it use the adposition fpi, a dative or some other construction?



msg=73993 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 11:04:40 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg73414#msg73414 date=1265151844]
But it does leave tsamsiyu (Why not tsamtu)
[/quote]
Tsamsiyu strikes me as being more active: a person who makes war. Next to that, "war-person" seems a tad dull. And maybe could be a tactician behind the scenes rather than an actual warrior doing the fighting.



msg=74055 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 11:45:45 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg73831#msg73831 date=1265184147]
thought of another question: how does pey work? Is it like in Spanish where it takes a direct object, does it use the adposition fpi, a dative or some other construction?
[/quote]
With direct object it's "await, wait for", without it's just "wait" in general. The former can be seen [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Verb_Phrases_as_Objects]here[/url], and the latter in the Ma Sempul response letter.



msg=74554 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 16:19:03 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

So when the thing you are waiting for is specified, it would be in the accusative? Like the Spanish esperar?



msg=74641 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 16:51:42 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg74554#msg74554 date=1265213943]
So when the thing you are waiting for is specified, it would be in the accusative?[/quote]

Yes, or topicalized. Frommer has used both.



msg=74921 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 18:48:01 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

The topic would be the exception as it always is. The phrase takes the accusative, that's what I have to remember.



msg=75179 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 21:02:59 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

Two more:

1) Are there rules governing the two given realizations of the /u/ phoneme?

2) Just what, exactly, is lok? It's given as "close, close to", which would seem to imply either adposition or adjective, but then we have the strange occurrence of livok in:

Nari soli ayoe fteke nìhawng livok
eye make<PFV> PL-1-INTR lest too ?-SJV
We were careful not to get too close

Does this mean that lok is actually a verb meaning "get close, approach, draw near", or is it suggestive of "adjective verbs"? (Suppression of copula in nìhawng lok livu?)



msg=75440 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 01:27:42 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

We can come up with dozens of questions on how individual words are used. I'm not sure it's the best use of our efforts, or Paul's time, when we have so many questions on the general working of the language. Though words like "spe'etu" are likely to illuminate broader patterns, which case we use with "wait" is not likely to be useful apart from that single word, and so would seem to be a low priority.



msg=75657 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 04:54:39 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

How about the superlative form?  I know we have nul- for the comparative, but the only superlative form we have is swey(best).  And in my experience with languages(french, german and icelandic) "best" is usually an irregular superlative.



msg=76050 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 11:19:02 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg75657#msg75657 date=1265259279]
How about the superlative form?  I know we have nul- for the comparative, but the only superlative form we have is swey(best).  And in my experience with languages(french, german and icelandic) "best" is usually an irregular superlative.
[/quote]
We have the "biggest I've ever seen" in the NYTimes interview.



msg=77210 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 22:09:46 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

I've thought of another.

The correct way to say I like and I hate/dislike.

For now I've been using "_____l oer fpomit tìng" and "____l oer fpomit ke tìng" but I doubt these are correct.



msg=77373 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 00:33:58 | u=631

Re: Combining our efforts

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Has anybody thought of the passive?
I'd like to get that mystery solved... :)



msg=77753 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 07:55:15 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

A question that came up in a different thread: how to say "mine".

Perhaps you just say "my". But that would imply that ean could mean "the blue one" as well as just "blue".

If it does, then adjectives must be able to take case, and possessive PNs must be able to take a second case ["I saw mine (accusative)" - oeyäti ??]. We've been assuming that's not possible. What we might have is a dummy noun like 'u that takes the case. So this could be quite an important question.



msg=79248 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 21:28:35 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3577.msg77373#msg77373 date=1265330038]
[font=Garamond]Has anybody thought of the passive?
I'd like to get that mystery solved... :)

[/quote]

For now I've been using a combination of word order changes and topical markers. That said, a Frommerian method would be good.



msg=79339 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 22:30:20 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

Are kä- (as in kämakto) and za- (as in zamunge) fully productive markers of direction?  Oriented to speaker or subject?  Any metaphorical extensions of meaning when used with verbs not related to motion?



msg=80045 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 09:14:15 | u=73

Re: Combining our efforts

Prrton

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg70906#msg70906 date=1265064132]
Good idea.

As for questions, there is a burning one: atan!?
[/quote]


    [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/atan-lucet-in-tenebris/]Tì'eyng zola'u[/url]  ;D


_______________________



msg=82865 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 18:07:04 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

If no one has mailed him already, I'll send him the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg71622/#msg71622]summary[/url] of questions Omängum F. made, and ask how he feels about a combined effort for these matters.



msg=82910 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 18:31:30 | u=430

Re: Combining our efforts

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg82865#msg82865 date=1265566024]
If no one has mailed him already, I'll send him the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg71622/#msg71622]summary[/url] of questions Omängum F. made, and ask how he feels about a combined effort for these matters.
[/quote]

Sounds good to me.



msg=83156 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:13:41 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg82865#msg82865 date=1265566024]
If no one has mailed him already, I'll send him the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg71622/#msg71622]summary[/url] of questions Omängum F. made, and ask how he feels about a combined effort for these matters.
[/quote]

We can take out atan and maybe add mine (= oeyä fì'u ?). Also "I am (feel) hot/cold" might be a good one.



msg=83432 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 22:46:35 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3577.msg82910#msg82910 date=1265567490]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg82865#msg82865 date=1265566024]
If no one has mailed him already, I'll send him the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg71622/#msg71622]summary[/url] of questions Omängum F. made, and ask how he feels about a combined effort for these matters.
[/quote]

Sounds good to me.
[/quote]

Seconded



msg=83535 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 00:33:15 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg83432#msg83432 date=1265582795]Seconded[/quote]

Consummatum est.



msg=83570 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 01:28:47 | u=73

Re: Combining our efforts

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg83535#msg83535 date=1265589195]
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg83432#msg83432 date=1265582795]Seconded[/quote]

Consummatum est.
[/quote]

Footnote: We know from a separate mail on a separate issue that the meaning of "atan" is "illumination" so we need not bother him with that again, but I stooopidly forgot to ask for the correct pronunciation so please ask if it is átan or atán.

Also, please ask him as a GLOBAL request for all of his responses to indicate syllable stress for all new vocabulary.

PPS: It wouldn't be a bad idea for someone to go through all of the words for which we need but don't have syllable stress (because it was not indicated in the Survival Guide) and generate another list of "please clarify pronunciation for: ____, _____, _____, etc." As we begin to actually SPEAK, it really is vital to to know the stress. Thank you to Tsmukán Keyl for being such a soldier/general on this front.




msg=83939 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 07:39:27 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3577.msg83570#msg83570 date=1265592527]
It wouldn't be a bad idea for someone to go through all of the words for which we need but don't have syllable stress (because it was not indicated in the Survival Guide) and generate another list of "please clarify pronunciation for: ____, _____, _____, etc." As we begin to actually SPEAK, it really is vital to to know the stress. Thank you to Tsmukán Keyl for being such a soldier/general on this front.
[/quote]

Since we're already talking about a lot of words, I think better actually to ask him to go through the dict (or maybe the one on wiktionary, which doesn't have a lot of usage notes or examples) and verify the stress. Some of the ones we're sure of are probably wrong, and we'd miss them otherwise. And some may not even be words.



msg=83951 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 07:56:22 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

Be sure to ask for a complete description of the grammar while he's at it.  And the lexicon.  And a pony.

  - Eri



msg=83961 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 08:12:08 | u=453

Re: Combining our efforts

bagget00

don't forget to ask if he has figured out a meaning for this yet.

"meoauniaea" (meh-oh-ah-oo-nee-ah-eh-ah). "Don't ask me what it means - I haven't assigned a meaning yet. But I love the word!" Frommer said.



msg=84017 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 09:51:53 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg83951#msg83951 date=1265615782]
Be sure to ask for a complete description of the grammar while he's at it.  And the lexicon.  And a pony.
[/quote]

I didn't mean as part of this collection!  :P

But if we're thinking of compiling a list of words to check for stress on another occasion, I think it'd be more straightforward just to have him review s.t. we already have.



msg=84710 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 17:40:05 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

I thought of this in another thread.

What is the correct phrase for "I like ____" and likewise "I hate/dislike ___".

Also, if it hasn't already be mentioned, the correct response to "irayo".



msg=84766 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 18:01:26 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg84710#msg84710 date=1265650805]
Also, if it hasn't already be mentioned, the correct response to "irayo".
[/quote]
Actually, I hope Frommer doesn't tell us that.

I'd like to keep using [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/language-update-a-closer-look-at-dr-frommers-letter/msg46979/#msg46979]my own invention[/url] for a while, maintaining my self-delusion that it's actually correct.  I don't think I could keep that up in the face of an actual answer from Karyu Pawl. :)

  - Eri



msg=85412 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:03:29 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

I'd rather people use the correct form.

Here's one though...  And I hope there is an answer because otherwise what I've been telling people is wrong.  (Specifically that you can say anything that can be said in Na'vi without using the topic.)

How do we say what we apologize for without using the topic?  Would it be something like "Ta fìskxawng tsap'alute sengi oe", or is that too simplistic?  If I wanted to say "I apologize for eating your hexapede" would that be something like "Tsap'alute sengi oe taluna ngeyä yerikit yolom"?



msg=85424 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:06:38 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg85412#msg85412 date=1265666609]If I wanted to say "I apologize for eating your hexapede" would that be something like "Tsap'alute sengi oe taluna ngeyä yerikit yolom"?[/quote]

You can topicalize a phrase, with a fì'uri, as in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]Canon[/url] (Jan 20), ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole' a fì'uri, ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan!.



msg=85490 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:25:47 | u=73

Re: Combining our efforts

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg85424#msg85424 date=1265666798]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg85412#msg85412 date=1265666609]If I wanted to say "I apologize for eating your hexapede" would that be something like "Tsap'alute sengi oe taluna ngeyä yerikit yolom"?[/quote]

You can topicalize a phrase, with a fì'uri, as in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]Canon[/url] (Jan 20), ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole' a fì'uri, ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan!.
[/quote]

Tafral nìteng san« Furia ngengeyerikit yolom ohel, tsap'alute suyi (ohe) »sìk tsun fko pivlltxe.



msg=85535 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:39:18 | u=73

Re: Combining our efforts

Prrton

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg84766#msg84766 date=1265652086]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg84710#msg84710 date=1265650805]
Also, if it hasn't already be mentioned, the correct response to "irayo".
[/quote]
Actually, I hope Frommer doesn't tell us that.

I'd like to keep using [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/language-update-a-closer-look-at-dr-frommers-letter/msg46979/#msg46979]my own invention[/url] for a while, maintaining my self-delusion that it's actually correct.  I don't think I could keep that up in the face of an actual answer from Karyu Pawl. :)

  - Eri

[/quote]

  A: Irayo!
  Ä: Prrte'  "my pleasure" or "ask whenever, at your pleasure'"
  nìMeuia  "my honor" or "I'm honored to be able to do it for you"




msg=85561 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:53:38 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg85424#msg85424 date=1265666798]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg85412#msg85412 date=1265666609]If I wanted to say "I apologize for eating your hexapede" would that be something like "Tsap'alute sengi oe taluna ngeyä yerikit yolom"?[/quote]

You can topicalize a phrase, with a fì'uri, as in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]Canon[/url] (Jan 20), ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole' a fì'uri, ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan!.
[/quote]Right, but the root of my question is how to say it WITHOUT using the topic.  I know how to say it with a topic or otherwise in context.



msg=85704 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 00:26:47 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3577.msg85535#msg85535 date=1265668758]
   A: Irayo!
   Ä: Prrte'  "my pleasure" or "ask whenever, at your pleasure'"
  nìMeuia  "my honor" or "I'm honored to be able to do it for you"

[/quote]

Yeah, okay, those are good too. :)

  - Eri



msg=87645 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:02:32 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

Still no reply to my email.

And a new question: how should we understand the phrase oeru teya si (the rhythm) fills me from the Weaving Song.  Our other si-construction idioms use nouns.



msg=87707 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:41:39 | u=73

Re: Combining our efforts

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg87645#msg87645 date=1265760152]
Still no reply to my email.

And a new question: how should we understand the phrase oeru teya si (the rhythm) fills me from the Weaving Song.  Our other si-construction idioms use nouns.
[/quote]

I suspect it *could be* a paradigm that is related to adjectives that have a verbal component, but I don't know. I believe that *at least some* of the *adjectives* (or things that we think of as adjectives at this point) don't always require lu (in all contexts?). Example: ...fteke nìhawng l•iv•ok ("...so that we not get too close"). PERHAPS (a complete guess on my part) this might happen:

teya  full (be full)      t•iv•eya  if full/may be full    teya si  to fill/fills
lok  close (be close)      l•iv•ok  if close/may be close    lok si  to approach/approaches
txur  strong (be strong)      tx•iv•ur  if strong/may be strong    txur si  to strengthen/strengthens


roger may have a better understanding of this or more confidence on the subject. But, if this class of verbal adjectives does exist, and it is a subset, then I am not aware of any *list* (partial or complete) having been made publicly available. The concept of it seems compatible with how many of the other parts of speech can and do change via tì- and le-. PERHAPS (only MY theory), the - of *tì.teya si is redundant and therefore optionally or systematically dropped?





msg=87775 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 01:56:54 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

That looks reasonable, given that we have livok. It would suggest we could use si with verbs as a causative. But we'd need confirmation from Frommer.



msg=88818 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 17:06:23 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg87645#msg87645 date=1265760152]
Still no reply to my email.
[/quote]

I wouldn't expect one for a while.

I sent mine just before the thread started, still no response, I guess his inbox is still swamped.



msg=90333 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 05:19:36 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg88818#msg88818 date=1265821583]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg87645#msg87645 date=1265760152]
Still no reply to my email.
[/quote]

I wouldn't expect one for a while.

I sent mine just before the thread started, still no response, I guess his inbox is still swamped.
[/quote]

He also has a real life, and this has got to play second fiddle to his more pressing commitments. Don't expect any communication around finals, for example.



msg=90447 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 07:54:12 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

Good point. He certainly does have better things to do, he even gets paid for some of them!  ;D



msg=90807 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 14:53:12 | u=430

Re: Combining our efforts

TehMightyPirate

Yeah, isn't this midterm season?



msg=100457 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 15:15:43 | u=1620

Re: Combining our efforts

dontbugme

i dont know if this allready found a way into a mail to frommer or an answer, but as far as i know there is no knowlege about it yet:

there are 2 words for "and"; "ulte" connects sentences whereas "sì" connects expressions as far as i know.
the 1. question is: are there also 2 words for "or" or is "fu" used in both cases ?
2. question: is there an expression(s) for "either or" ?



msg=100555 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 16:27:28 | u=430

Re: Combining our efforts

TehMightyPirate

Just for people that are following this thread but not the language updates forum in general we have a preliminary response:

[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-%28feb-16%29/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-%28feb-16%29/[/url]



msg=100561 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 16:30:38 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Updated my list on page 2 to mark questions that have been answered.  Now I jsut need to update it to include all the questions I haven't gotten around to adding yet.



msg=101661 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 03:26:53 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

Ma omängum fra'uti,

You can cross off atan as illumination if you want. 

I don't know if this has been asked yet, but as a possible future question:  If a prefix/suffix results in a diphthong, is it pronounced as such?  E.g.

X a-yey          is it ay.ey or a.yey?



msg=101818 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 07:09:30 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg101661#msg101661 date=1266377213]
I don't know if this has been asked yet, but as a possible future question:  If a prefix/suffix results in a diphthong, is it pronounced as such?  E.g.

X a-yey           is it ay.ey or a.yey?
[/quote]

I've asked it on my own, in the opposite form: is ay-eyktan ay.eyk or a.yeyk? No answer yet, but I think it probably follows the morpheme boundaries when speaking slowly for instruction, but in quick speech F runs things together: a final consonant on one word becomes the onset to the initial vowel of the next. AFAIK there is no phonemic distinction between ay.ey and a.yey, so I doubt the morphological distinction is maintained.



msg=101954 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 09:56:51 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg100561#msg100561 date=1266337838]
Updated my list on page 2 to mark questions that have been answered.  Now I jsut need to update it to include all the questions I haven't gotten around to adding yet.
[/quote]
In that case I'd like to repeat [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg75179/#msg75179]this pair[/url]. The first question is a simple one as it stands, but it concerns itself with a very basic feature of the spoken language. The second could either serve to identify an erroneous source, or possibly illuminate an interesting grammatical mechanism.

(Something else which has occurred to me is what happens when prefixes are applied to words like oeyk. I'm assuming that the plural series would come out as *meweyk, *pxeweyk, ayoeyk/*ayweyk, the demonstratives as *fìweyk, *tsaweyk, etc. More generally, how far does sandhi extend in Na'vi?)



msg=102122 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 13:16:44 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

Well, William included some version of [desc="Do you like getting email from individual Na'vi students asking questions, or would you prefer to get them from a group all at once, like this?"]my question[/desc], and Karyu Pawl gave us [desc="Thanks for combining your questions. Yes, that helps a lot. Excellent idea."]an answer[/desc].  So now I have two more questions for our collective mind to ask:

1) What are the trial forms?

2) Can can normally transitive verbs be used intransitively, and if so, how?

Both questions have been answered already, but only in private email which the recipients do not wish to share.  A public answer would be nice to have.

  - Eri



msg=102362 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 16:12:33 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

First, Karyu Pawl said that he'll answer more of the questions in the first batch I sent him, so I'll give him some time to do that before sending off a new batch.

So, another question from me...

I'm about 95% confident that oe, when it takes suffixes, though still written oe, is pronounced we-.  Is this correct, and if so, what are the rules?



msg=102446 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 16:59:54 | u=3552

Re: Combining our efforts

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg102362#msg102362 date=1266423153]
I'm about 95% confident that oe, when it takes suffixes, though still written oe, is pronounced we-.  Is this correct, and if so, what are the rules?
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure i read that the way this works is that oe sounds like "we" when a suffix adds another syllable to the word; so oel is still o•el, but oeru sounds like we•ru.  But i'm afraid i don't remember where i got that idea, so i'll bow out and hope someone can confirm that.

Eywa ngahu



msg=102458 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:02:52 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg102446#msg102446 date=1266425994]I'm pretty sure i read that the way this works is that oe sounds like "we" when a suffix adds another syllable to the word; so oel is still o•el, [/quote]

Unfortunately, I hear oel quite distinctly as wel.



msg=102484 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:13:43 | u=971

Re: Combining our efforts

marger

My favourite example for this is when Karyu Frommer pronounced "Oeyä eana txìm atsawl"... that "oeyä" really sound like "oweya", or something like that...



msg=102501 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:20:10 | u=430

Re: Combining our efforts

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg102458#msg102458 date=1266426172]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg102446#msg102446 date=1266425994]I'm pretty sure i read that the way this works is that oe sounds like "we" when a suffix adds another syllable to the word; so oel is still o•el, [/quote]

Unfortunately, I hear oel quite distinctly as wel.
[/quote]

My non-linguist guess is that in a word composed of entirely vowels the vowels do not glide together as usual, but that's just a guess.



msg=103127 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 22:58:12 | u=1620

Re: Combining our efforts

dontbugme

i dont know where it has been discussed but i remmber that nobody had an answer:

how do you indicate the case for a quote with "san" and/or "sìk" ?



msg=103214 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 00:19:05 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

My guess is since it is a direct quote it would be treated as an independent sentence.



msg=103549 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 07:10:55 | u=1620

Re: Combining our efforts

dontbugme

so does that mean that you only quote sentences with san+sìk but not words ?
its seems reasonable, but ive seen it for single words quite often, and i dont know a rule about that.



msg=103601 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 08:38:56 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

Oh, I see what you're getting at.  I'm not sure there, but again my guess is that it is still a direct quote, so whatever word the person said is stated exactly whether the ending on the word in your sentence is grammatically correct or not.

A possible question for the next batch for Frommer:

1.  As a follow up to "where,"  If you were to say I don't know where to go, would you have to have to literally say "I don't know where I go to" since the a separates two clauses, or could you do some sort of subjunctive construction?  Personally I think Oe ke omum tsengit a kivä sounds pretty cool.




msg=103876 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 13:38:34 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

san and sìk are always used for direct quotations.  You could quote a sentence, or a single word, but whatever you quote is expressed in exactly the same way that the original speaker expressed it (or would have expressed it, if you're quoting hypothetically).

The clearest example we have is in [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]an email from Frommer[/url] (scroll down to the Jan 21 email labeled "How about ... How do you say X..."):

[quote]
Suppose the sentence is, "Eytukan said he would go, but I don't believe him."
Everything converts to direct speech, so it would be:
Poltxe Eytukan san oe kayä sìk, slä oel pot ke spaw.
[/quote]
Everything converts to direct speech, so "Eytukan said he would go" becomes "Eytukan said quote I will go unquote".  Even if what Eytukan really said was "I want to ride my ikran and travel to the lands of the farthest tribes", when you're reporting what he said you phrase it as if you were repeating his directly spoken words, even though you're summarizing or interpreting rather than quoting precisely.

So with respect to quoting single words, you put them in whatever case the original speaker put them in (or hypothetical case the hypothetical speaker hypothetically put them in, if you're quoting hypothetically).

"Who did he say hunts hexapedes?" "He said 'Neytiri.'" Po poltxe san Neytiril sìk.
"What did he say Neytiri hunts?" "He said 'hexapedes.'" Po poltxe san ayerikit sìk.

"Welcome to Macdonald's Pandora, can I take your order?" "What's that first item on your menu?" "It says 'Hexapede McNuggets.'" Tsa plltxe san ayit yerikä sìk. It says quote bits of yerik unquote.

 - Eri



msg=103918 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 14:04:40 | u=1620

Re: Combining our efforts

dontbugme

the thing with direct speech is clear, but if you see the the quoted phrase as an object you might think you need to write it that way:

Poltxe Eytukanìl sanit oe kayä sìk, slä oel pot ke spaw.

instead of the original

Poltxe Eytukan san oe kayä sìk, slä oel pot ke spaw.

i see that frommer didn't do it, but maybe it is needed/usefull to mark the case in other situations.
e.g. when there is a dative too, or with other verbs.

allthough i think it might sound a bit strange to add an acc. ending to another word than a noun.



msg=103942 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 14:29:26 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

Oh, okay.  I see your point, but we don't mark noun phrases or verb phrases that are in the place of objects, so I don't think there's any reason to mark a quotation with -it either.  And at any rate, I'm certain it would be wrong to add noun case markers to anything that's not a noun - we've never seen such a thing anywhere in the corpus.

But as far as Eytukan vs. Eytukanìl - that's an interesting observation; I don't think anyone's pointed that out before.  It appears that "X says quote Y unquote" is an intransitive construction, much like the modal verbs can/must/want.

  - Eri



msg=103968 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 14:58:18 | u=417

Re: Combining our efforts

Alìm Tsamsiyu

I'd really like an answer to my question noted [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/oeya-poya-poeya-poanya-adjectives/]here[/url].

About oeyä, ngeyä, poanyä, etc. and how we say mine, his, hers, yours, etc. (Possessive Pronouns).

I have an email likely drowning in his mailbox with this very question in it (that I sent JUST before finding this thread quite a while back), but the question may be more likely to be answered in the bulk batch.

Anyway, I just want to know! :)

Also - a question that I haven't found the answer to, but I reckon someone else here will without having to ask Dr. Frommer (but if not, include it as one of my question contributions):

Do we use the attributive -a- with numbers when they describe a noun? For example: Four Thanators - Falulukan atsìng / Tsìnga falulukan?



msg=103982 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 15:06:48 | u=1620

Re: Combining our efforts

dontbugme

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg100561#msg100561 date=1266337838]
Updated my list on page 2 to mark questions that have been answered.  Now I jsut need to update it to include all the questions I haven't gotten around to adding yet.
[/quote]
maybe you should also indicate if there is allready a mail sent out cencerning that for each question



msg=103987 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 15:09:14 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3577.msg103968#msg103968 date=1266505098]
Do we use the attributive -a- with numbers when they describe a noun? For example: Four Thanators - Falulukan atsìng / Tsìnga falulukan?
[/quote]
From [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/email-from-frommer-re-numbers-(or-the-full-number-chart!)/]Frommer's email about numbers[/url] we have 'Awa tìpawmìri one question, so the answer would seem to be "yes".

  - Eri



msg=104088 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 16:19:54 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

Another question: do adpositions ever go with nouns that have a case marker, or will the nouns always be uninflected for case?

(I assume adpositions evict any case markers based on what we've seen so far, but Word from On High would be useful.)



msg=104141 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 17:00:34 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

I'm not sure if it was from Frommer or Karyu Amawey but someone said that adpositions behave like case markers when used post-positionally in which case it would be impossible.

Of course, word from on high would be great.


================


Ok, it's now been 17 days from when I sent my email and wm.annis got a reply so I think my email probably got lost in a spam folder or something.

Because of that I've decided to post my questions here:


The number system you have kindly given us implies that the Na’vi have some concept of multiplication and addition (they call 17 two eights and one), so what would they call these operations?

Following on from my previous question, do the Na’vi have any words for subtraction and division?

As the Na’vi do not seem to have any sort of currency there is unlikely to be any incentive for them to develop a theory of negative numbers to handle debts but they may have developed a concept of fractions, if so, what would they call these?

With infixes, in the language log article you described there as being two infix positions and a pre-first position. Is this pre-first position taken by the participial infix <us> as well as the reflexive? Also, might there be more infixes that also take this position and if so (or not), might it be helpful for us to think about it as three infix positions the first of which is rarely used rather than a pre-first position?

How does <ol> meld with tense infixes? Is it the same as <er> does for <a<r>m> and <ì<r>m>, also, does <er> continue this pattern for melding with <ìy> and <ay>?

If si can only be used as an auxiliary verb, what would be used for any other uses of the verb to do/make (although I can’t think of any right now, I’m sure some have come up on the forum).

How do you form passive participles (if you do at all).

Can fnu be used as an adjective for quiet?

The Na’vi don’t seem to have any form of currency or economy so money would be meaningless to them but do they have any vaguely equivalent term/practice similar to bartering (for the practice) or some form of expense or effort for the noun.

Does Na’vi have any words for the following yet: skull, tongue, burial, grave, the frame that Jake and Grace are tied to, the verbs to drown, to talk and to say (or the last two just plltxe?); name, old, footstep, it, foot and Polyphemus.

What does the <eng> in oe tsap'alute sengi mean?


================


There were a few other questions that have subsequently been sorted though.



msg=104540 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 20:53:12 | u=1620

Re: Combining our efforts

dontbugme

there are also some words that i thought would be nice to know
left, right
next, last
before, after
without
knife
jump(i could imagine that there might be more than 1 word for it)

i also wondered if the na'vi have a word for luck/badluck or if they express this in another way

another unclear thing are the prepositions
e.g. mì: has it only a local meaning? does it cover all local situations e.g. at home, on land(if atxke is understood 3dimenional wich might be likely since they move in 3 dimensions)?



msg=104645 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 21:34:01 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

Apparently directions are coming soon.



msg=104708 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 21:54:59 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

What makes you say that?



msg=104732 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 22:04:33 | u=430

Re: Combining our efforts

TehMightyPirate

Yeah, I should have posted that here. Frommer has told prrton (and us in general) that he's going to get us colors and directions soon among other things.



msg=104804 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 22:47:41 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

na vs. pxel



msg=104892 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 23:54:17 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3577.msg104732#msg104732 date=1266530673]
Frommer has told prrton (and us in general) that he's going to get us colors and directions soon among other things.
[/quote]
Cool!

That's very exciting.  Both directions and colors offer a plethora of possibilities for further demonstration that the Na'vi way of thinking is exotic, interesting, and beautiful (which to my mind are the defining characteristics of the language).

Directions:

I like 'eylan na'viyä's observation about three dimensions: not only do the Na'vi commonly ride flying creatures, but they habitually move through through dense elevated foliage - climbing, jumping, dropping, and keeping a lookout both above and below.  K. Pawl has said he hasn't considered the Na'vi culture in creating the language, but perhaps now is a good time for him to start.  Could the Na'vi have no words for left and right?  Might they make a distinction between directions on the ground, directions in the trees, and directions in the air?  If they have cardinal directions, are they tied to Pandora's motion relative to Polyphemus, Alpha Centauri, or the celestial background?  Or are they relative to landmarks instead?  Could the words for direction also incorporate a concept of distance, similar to the way the five verbal tenses incorporate both direction (past/future) and distance (near/far)?

Colors:

When it comes to colors, Pawl could transcend not just human language, but human biology.  The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term]variety of color terms[/url] in human languages is simultaneously very diverse (ranging from two to twelve "basic colors") and very predictable (the sequence of which colors are added when as a language evolves is nearly the same all over).  This is probably because of the way the human eye works.

Now, based on the evidence of the film, Na'vi color vision is not particularly different from humans', because 1) we see things from Jake's avatar's perspective and things look pretty much the same, and 2) if Jake's avatar-vision were that different from his own, surely he would have mentioned it while on-camera; Cameron would have been sure to point it out to the audience if it were so.  But even with that as a constraint: at the very least, the Na'vi (and avatars) are better able to see at night, and to notice the omnipresent bioillumination that makes up their night-time world.  Instead of the basic color terms being variations of white/black/red/yellow/green/blue, maybe they see the world as "sunlight/shadow/living-light/darkness/blue-green/red-yellow/brown".  Maybe the Na'vi have a biological capability to see a color distinction between things that are alive (plants and animals) and inanimate (stone, earth, metal), so that a brown rock and a brown tree trunk have different color words because they actually register as different colors to Na'vi eyes.  Maybe there are colors (and color names) that can only be seen through tsaheylu.

================

Pawl has said Na'vi is made up of things already found in human languages, even though the combination is unique.  Well, that was two months ago... he's since gone beyond that with the number system!  Now, that may have been a natural, perhaps even obvious, thing to do, but I for one encourage him to keep it up and keep going even further!  I don't know how much of this kind of stuff Pawl can do on his own versus needing Jim Cameron's input.  I don't even know how interested he is in pushing things that far.  But I can hope.  And wait.  And see.

  - Eri



msg=105011 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 01:39:19 | u=3552

Re: Combining our efforts

tigermind

Ma Eri, i hope your prediction about Na'vi perception of color proves to be correct; it would add some wonderful depth to the language.

Eywa ngahu



msg=105490 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 13:06:07 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

Okay, I now have [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Trials_.26_transitivity]a public answer[/url] to my trial forms question, so here's my next contribution to the collective missive:

More native idioms, please?

... And yes, I see that [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/score!-(1)-the-verb-to-use-(2)-more-detail-on-teya-si/]we just got one[/url] ("oeru teya si").  Moar Plz?!?

  - Eri



msg=106026 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 19:50:36 | u=664

Re: Combining our efforts

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=3577.msg104540#msg104540 date=1266526392]
there are also some words that i thought would be nice to know
...
before, after
...
[/quote]

I second this.  I think there needs to be a little more temporal words.  I think we have yesterday trram, but what about tomorrow?  Also before, after, near, far in a temporal context is much needed to be able to talk about anything. 

Larger issues of time are how do the Na'vi count time, in days? moon cycles? seasons? Can trram be anytime in the near past, or is it only specifically yesterday? 

Also, in a slightly related query, it would be nice to have the word for "Birthday".

If someone else has mentioned any of this, just add my name to the list.  Also, if we know any of these already, I'd love to know as well. :)

-Keyl 



msg=106188 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:11:26 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

Has anyone else noticed that the more we know, the more we want to know?

Two months ago we were excited about [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/some-thoughts/]deriving *fì to mean "this"[/url].  Now we want to know about timekeeping (on two planets!), questions, directions, colors, idioms, abstract concepts, and Shakespeare.

We're hungry little falulukan, aren't we?

  - Eri



msg=106192 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:13:59 | u=430

Re: Combining our efforts

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg106188#msg106188 date=1266613886]
Has anyone else noticed that the more we know, the more we want to know?

Two months ago we were excited about [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/some-thoughts/]deriving *fì to mean "this"[/url].  Now we want to know about timekeeping (on two planets!), questions, directions, colors, idioms, abstract concepts, and Shakespeare.

We're hungry little falulukan, aren't we?

  - Eri

[/quote]

YOM YOM YOM!



msg=107468 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:02:52 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

Warning: high density linguo-babble ahead.

Confirm: tsa inanimate "it"; tsa- "that," regardless of animacy; tsay- "these" (with tsa- and lenited first consonant also possible).  Genitive of tsatseyä?

What is the animacy hierarchy?  Na;vi, humans, motile animals: po.  What about plants?  What about a tree?  What about a Hometree?

Family words: is sa'nok sufficient to mean "my" mother most of the time, or must I use a possessive pronoun?  Any dovetailing with inalienable possession, extending this to body parts, etc.?

Can I elide a repeated verb and let the case disposition take care of the rest?  Ayvulit ngal tse'a, slä utralit oel, "you see the branches, but I (see) the tree."

It seems kelkune would work for "homeward."  What about "at home"?  Or "at" anywhere, actually.

Is -'u a productive affix for object nouns (yom'u for "food", say)?  Inspired by lì'u.



msg=107515 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:29:49 | u=1620

Re: Combining our efforts

dontbugme

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3577.msg106192#msg106192 date=1266614039]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg106188#msg106188 date=1266613886]
Has anyone else noticed that the more we know, the more we want to know?

Two months ago we were excited about [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/some-thoughts/]deriving *fì to mean "this"[/url].  Now we want to know about timekeeping (on two planets!), questions, directions, colors, idioms, abstract concepts, and Shakespeare.

We're hungry little falulukan, aren't we?

  - Eri

[/quote]

YOM YOM YOM!
[/quote]

maybe we shouldt send too big packages too often and sort out only the most important/interesting questions for now



msg=107565 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:53:16 | u=0

Re: Combining our efforts

Swoka Swizaw

Simple: the adposition for "on (top of)." For one of the Na'vi quotes in my sig, I was forced to use the word, . First, I used kip, but that didn't feel right, so I settled on . Fìlì'u ke 'efu oeru mi eyawr.

By the way, I know that Na'vi is still the property of Faux, but has anyone ever thought of asking Frommer how much he has made? Like, he doesn't have to give us the specifics, but perhaps he can tell us whether or not he's yet come up with words for a large range of...colors, let's say. At least, give us confidence that if and when the flood gates open, we could expect Noah's flood behind it.



msg=107652 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 21:44:40 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

Na'vi is not the property of Fox. Or of Cameron. Or of Frommer, for that matter. You can't own a language, at least not under US copyright and patent law. They could trademark the name "Na'vi", though they haven't. But Frommer does need to work with Fox, and that's as important as legal ownership. We accord Frommer de facto ownership of Na'vi because we respect him and trust he'll do a better job with it than we would, and to keep the project from splintering.



msg=116459 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 00:17:22 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

A few things I was wondering about...  Not sure if anyone has brought it up yet.

Can the causative be used with copulative verbs like "lu", "slu" and "tok"?  What would be the correct usage?
As an ex. "Slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì" - you will become part of the people.  Say someone was explaining what needed to be done, and ended by saying "And that will cause you to become part of the people" - Sleykayu tsakemìl nga? Na'viyä hapxìt" - what case does nga get there, does it become ngati or ngaru?  Or is that simply not possible and instead you'd need to say "Tsakemta slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì"?

We have the lu + dative for possession...  But what about slu + dative for get/recieve?  (slu oeru tìpawm - I will get an answer?)

Can the pe prefix (/suffix) be used with any noun, or does it stick to the "question words"?  Can you say, for example, "p(e)aylì'u" for "What words"?  (Making a guess that in that form the e would be elided.)



msg=116554 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 01:28:38 | u=664

Re: Combining our efforts

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg116459#msg116459 date=1267143442]
A few things I was wondering about...  Not sure if anyone has brought it up yet.

Can the causative be used with copulative verbs like "lu", "slu" and "tok"?  What would be the correct usage?
As an ex. "Slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì" - you will become part of the people.  Say someone was explaining what needed to be done, and ended by saying "And that will cause you to become part of the people" - Sleykayu tsakemìl nga? Na'viyä hapxìt" - what case does nga get there, does it become ngati or ngaru?  Or is that simply not possible and instead you'd need to say "Tsakemta slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì"?

[/quote]

Sleyku is "to produce" in the wiktionary, so it is possible. 

I don't know if it makes sense in your example sentence though. 

-Keyl



msg=116664 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 03:08:26 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

[quote]"And that will cause you to become part of the people" - Sleykayu tsakemìl nga? Na'viyä hapxìt" - what case does nga get there, does it become ngati or ngaru?  Or is that simply not possible and instead you'd need to say "Tsakemta slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì"?[/quote]

I believe it would take the accusative because, and correct me if I'm wrong here, in English a similar sentence breaks down as follows:

I became [desc=direct object]a monster[/desc] [desc=indirect object]to you[/desc] meaning "you now see me as a monster."

Maybe Na'vi works differently with slu though.  It's definitely a good question to include in the next batch.



msg=116691 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 03:48:09 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg116554#msg116554 date=1267147718]
Sleyku is "to produce" in the wiktionary, so it is possible. 

I don't know if it makes sense in your example sentence though. 

-Keyl
[/quote]Right, that's why I included that example.

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg116664#msg116664 date=1267153706]
I became [desc=direct object]a monster[/desc] [desc=indirect object]to you[/desc] meaning "you now see me as a monster."
[/quote]Ngaru slolu oe vrrtep.
I became a monster(demon) to you

Though that strikes me as idiomatic to English.



msg=116713 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 04:16:54 | u=0

Re: Combining our efforts

jasgor9

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=3577.msg71266#msg71266 date=1265081741]
Getting some words for emotions would be nice.
[/quote]

I agree.



msg=116816 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 06:25:50 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

Everything with "become" seems idiomatic to me in a way, except for your scenario and perhaps the following:

You made me become a member of the community/club. 

Though we don't have words to translate this, I still tend to think "member" there is a D.O.



msg=116817 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 06:27:39 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

And so we're back around to my example, as you just gave the exact meaning of my example.



msg=116860 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:43:39 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

The circle of life...sorry couldn't help myself.

Ok, I'm still not going to speak for Na'vi, but I did find the following for English:

[url=http://www.enotes.com/grammar/q-and-a/what-subject-object-verb-these-questions-sentences-138013]http://www.enotes.com/grammar/q-and-a/what-subject-object-verb-these-questions-sentences-138013[/url]

I didn't have time to check his sourcing, but at least it's a starting point.

On a completely separate note, how do I attach a link to a word or phrase of my choosing?  For example writing "become" and having it link to the site above?



msg=116864 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:57:43 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

That doesn't really clarify much except to agree that "become" in English is a linking verb (AKA copulative verb) which agrees with the known usage in Na'vi, and my example above, and that still leaves us with the question of how the causative infix applies there.

For links, simply click the "insert hyperlink" button, then instead of putting the URL in the middle, change the first "url" it gives you into "url=your/url/here", then add the text you want to see between the url and /url.



msg=116896 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 08:34:12 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Back on topic, another couple....

In Avatar, it sounds like Neytiri says "Oel pot tspìmìyang".  Is this a mis-hearing, or is there really two tense infixes given to provide the "had been about to" phrasing?

Personal pronouns seem to like -eyä as the genitive suffix, but no other words we've seen get this treatment.  It there some general rule we don't know, or is it really as simple as the pronouns get -eyä?  If it's the latter, does that extend to gender suffixed, such as poeyä or poaneyä (Or as William suggested, poenyä, which nicely keeps the masculine and feminine versions the same number of syllables)?



msg=116919 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 08:58:15 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg116896#msg116896 date=1267173252]
In Avatar, it sounds like Neytiri says "Oel pot tspìmìyang".  Is this a mis-hearing, or is there really two tense infixes given to provide the "had been about to" phrasing?

Personal pronouns seem to like -eyä as the genitive suffix, but no other words we've seen get this treatment.  It there some general rule we don't know, or is it really as simple as the pronouns get -eyä?  If it's the latter, does that extend to gender suffixed, such as poeyä or poaneyä (Or as William suggested, poenyä, which nicely keeps the masculine and feminine versions the same number of syllables)?
[/quote]

The double tense is clear in the German and Spanish dubs too: "I was just" (ìm) "about to" (ìy) "kill him".

I'd expect poeyä, poanä.



msg=116921 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 09:00:03 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Right, but I don't want to make assumptions at this point.



msg=117145 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 13:32:28 | u=21

Re: Combining our efforts

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg116896#msg116896 date=1267173252]Personal pronouns seem to like -eyä as the genitive suffix, but no other words we've seen get this treatment. [/quote]

I am 99% certain the -eyä analysis is incorrect.  The pronouns take the usual -(y)ä, but sometimes take a vowel change in the stem, too.  In the Language Log post, Frommer said that "changes to the noun base sometimes occur with the Genitive," so it seems better to think of nga > ngeyä as that sort of change, rather than as a new ending.

My worry is that there will be non-pronoun stems that undergo this change we haven't learned about.



msg=117484 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 17:12:44 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

You're probably right but it seems like it also brings back elided vowels, as in the oeng->oengeyä case, so it's more than just a simple vowel movement.



msg=117690 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:08:32 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

How do "si" based verbs work as far as modified parts of speech?  I know we have "tsamsiyu" as one example, but is that just a James Cameron thing, or is that a normal construct for doer of si-verb?  (And why is it tsamsiyu rather than just tsamtu?)  How does the participle enter into this...  For example if I wanted to say a "Helping person" or a "Filling meal", would it be based off the si verb form, or would it just be a modification of the root word...  (lesrung / leteya?)

(This next two maybe someone here can answer rather than having to pass onto Karyu Pawl...)

What is the difference between "hawnu" and "tìhawnu si"?

For the name of the Na'vi "Golden rule" it uses tìrusey for the gerund form of live...  Obviously tìrey in this sense is life.  But at other times you have said to use the tì- nominilization to form a gerund, and gave "Tìtaron lu lehrrap" (hunting is dangerous) as an example.  In other cases, the nominilized form is a different meaning as in the rey case, such as 'eyng = v. answer and tì'eyng = n. answer.
(Or am I just being English-only speaker dense again, and something like "an answering" and "an answer" are the same thing in other languages?)



msg=117738 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:29:58 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

I think you got it w your last suggestion.

Is there a "tìhawnu si"? I don't remember seeing it.



msg=117749 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:35:14 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Eytukan's last words.  "Omatikayaru tìhawnu sivi"



msg=117761 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:38:43 | u=2873

Re: Combining our efforts

Skyinou

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg117690#msg117690 date=1267211312]
How do "si" based verbs work as far as modified parts of speech?  I know we have "tsamsiyu" as one example, but is that just a James Cameron thing, or is that a normal construct for doer of si-verb?  (And why is it tsamsiyu rather than just tsamtu?)  How does the participle enter into this...  For example if I wanted to say a "Helping person" or a "Filling meal", would it be based off the si verb form, or would it just be a modification of the root word...  (lesrung / leteya?)
[/quote]
If tsamsìyu is not from Cameron, it is maybe because "tsam = war" is not an action, it's a concept. You can be "a person who hunt = taronyu" but not "a person who war = tsamyu".
As far as I can not find contrary examples, I would welcome those you can find. (With "tu" it seems different)

[quote]What is the difference between "hawnu" and "tìhawnu si"?[/quote]
First, do we know if "tìhawnu sì" exists?
[Edit]: Then from Eytukan words: "tìhawnu" can be the protection, and "tìhawnu sì = acting as a protection" and not "protect"? (With Neytiri being omitted because obvious)
The first one being intransitive (with dative for the one being protected), and the second one not.
"acting as a protection for/to someone" but "protecting someone from something"

[quote](Or am I just being English-only speaker dense again, and something like "an answering" and "an answer" are the same thing in other languages?)
[/quote]
I don't find a difference between "an answering" and "an answer" from my french point of view. You can translate directly "tì'useyng" into french, but it is not correct. It can be specificaly allowed sometimes, but normally not.



msg=117767 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:42:03 | u=971

Re: Combining our efforts

marger

Kaltxì!

"tìhawnu" would be an abstract noun derived from [desc=protect]hawnu[/desc], so it should mean protection...
But for what's the difference...



msg=117793 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:54:54 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3577.msg117761#msg117761 date=1267213123]
If tsamsìyu is not from Cameron, it is maybe because "tsam = war" is not an action, it's a concept. You can be "a person who hunt = taronyu" but not "a person who war = tsamyu".
As far as I can not find contrary examples, I would welcome those you can find. (With "tu" it seems different)[/quote]

I didn't give tsamyu though, I gave tsamtu.  This is based off reltseotu = artist rather than reltseosiyu.  The -tu suffix is (just like it looks) short for tute, so tsamtu would be literally "War person", like reltseotu is "picture-art-person".

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3577.msg117761#msg117761 date=1267213123]
[Edit]: Then from Eytukan words: "tìhawnu" can be the protector(I would see "hawnuyu" here, but can have a non-personal meaning. ex the shield.), and "tìhawnu sì = acting as the protector" and not "protect"? (With Neytiri being omitted because obvious)
[/quote]But "do/make/be/whatever protection to the clan" and "Protect the clan" are really the same thing...  And the subtitle gave it as "Protect".  (And the subject is omitted because it is a command/request more than anything else.)

As far as the answer vs answering thing...
"Ask me more questions, I enjoy answering!"  Here, saying "answer" instead of "answering" would be incorrect in English.
Pivawm oeru nì'ul sìpawm, tì'useyng oeru prrte' lu!
(Alt w/o gerund form: Pivawm oeru nì'ul sìpawm, 'ereyng a fì'u oeru prrte' lu!)

Even if answer and the gerund answering are the same in Na'vi, that brings up the question of why tìrusey rather than tìrey as a translation of "Living".



msg=117844 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 20:24:10 | u=2873

Re: Combining our efforts

Skyinou

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg117793#msg117793 date=1267214094]
I didn't give tsamyu though, I gave tsamtu.  This is based off reltseotu = artist rather than reltseosiyu.  The -tu suffix is (just like it looks) short for tute, so tsamtu would be literally "War person", like reltseotu is "picture-art-person".[/quote]
Someone said in an other thread, that it was then like if "tseo" was given to people by Eywa. Comparing with spe'etu, which is captIVE and then kind of receiver/passive. I can't believe the Na'vi would do the same with "tsam = war", that's just awful!

[quote]But "do/make/be/whatever protection to the clan" and "Protect the clan" are really the same thing...  And the subtitle gave it as "Protect".  (And the subject is omitted because it is a command/request more than anything else.)[/quote]
"protect" and "defend"

[quote]As far as the answer vs answering thing...
"Ask me more questions, I enjoy answering!"  Here, saying "answer" instead of "answering" would be incorrect in English.
Pivawm oeru nì'ul sìpawm, tì'useyng oeru prrte' lu!
[/quote]
Here you translate a verb by a noun. lit. "the fact of answering is a pleasure"
Then I think I see the difference you meant: "tì'useyng = the fact of answering" and "tì'eyng = the answer itself"

[quote]Even if answer and the gerund answering are the same in Na'vi, that brings up the question of why tìrusey rather than tìrey as a translation of "Living".
[/quote]
Because with just this it seems logical: "tìrey = life" , "rusey = living" then "tìrusey = the fact of living"
"Koren a’Awve tìRuseyä ’Awsiteng" is lit. "the first rule of the fact of living together"



msg=118153 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 22:59:07 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Spe'e is also a verb, not a noun, so it's already an exception to what Frommer gave as the usage.

And yes, in English the gerund is a noun form of the verb.  So yes, that's the difference I meant.  I wasn't disagreeing with the usage in life vs living, that would be silly since the words come from Frommer.  I was just saying if it has to use <us> for living, why would other words be different and not have to?  Not that I'm against a little irregularity in the language - it's like the linguistic equivalent of lense flare - something that in the real world is present with attempts to minimize, but in the CG world is purposely added to create realism.  I'd just like to know what is irregular and what is the rules.



msg=118209 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 23:31:33 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg118153#msg118153 date=1267225147]
it's like the linguistic equivalent of lens flare
[/quote]

awesome



msg=118357 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 01:13:30 | u=3552

Re: Combining our efforts

tigermind

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg117749#msg117749 date=1267212914]
Eytukan's last words.  "Omatikayaru tìhawnu sivi"
[/quote]

Maybe it's just a shade of meaning different?  Like, maybe instead of "protect the people," it's more like "keep/make the people safe"...?



msg=118410 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 01:41:51 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

Right, which comes back to my question...

What is the difference in meaning?



msg=118623 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 07:01:07 | u=1120

Re: Combining our efforts

roger

We don't know. But hawnu is also glossed "shelter". So perhaps that is more literally protecting s.o. in the sense of shielding them, whereas tìhawnu si might be more abstract, acting as a protector.



msg=118662 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 08:46:04 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

You may be right



msg=119852 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 00:52:07 | u=3552

Re: Combining our efforts

tigermind

[quote author=roger link=topic=3577.msg118623#msg118623 date=1267254067]
We don't know. But hawnu is also glossed "shelter". So perhaps that is more literally protecting s.o. in the sense of shielding them, whereas tìhawnu si might be more abstract, acting as a protector.
[/quote]

That's what i was thinking, that hawnu was the physical act of protecting someone, whereas tìhawnu si would be, erm, make the people safe--that is, make it so that they are safe.

Completely unrelated, but has anybody asked Karyu Pawl to clarify how we use tsnì?  I'm still mightily confused by that one.



msg=120342 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 12:09:01 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg119852#msg119852 date=1267318327]
Completely unrelated, but has anybody asked Karyu Pawl to clarify how we use tsnì?  I'm still mightily confused by that one.
[/quote]

I think of it as that which you use when futa is not possible, because the primary verb is intransitive:

Oel fpìl futa poanìl tskot tìyìng poer
I think that he's about to give the bow to her

Oe ätxäle si tsnì poanìl tskot tivìng poer
I request that he give the bow to her

Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer
I hope that he'll give the bow to her



msg=120531 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 15:20:16 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

But what about fwa then?

I think fwa vs tsnì is on a similar level to na vs pxel.

That said, tsnì seems to be used with "hopey-type-verbs" (the only examples we have are with sìlpey and ätxäle [desc=IIRC]TOON[/desc]) so it may be used if there is an implied subjunctive in the second clause that wouldn't be clear with a normal modal infinitve <iv>.



msg=120555 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 15:34:39 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120531#msg120531 date=1267370416]
But what about fwa then?

I think fwa vs tsnì is on a similar level to na vs pxel.
[/quote]

Fwa (fì'u a) is the subjective counterpart to futa (fì'ut a), so it's not used in the same way.

Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan
It's clear to me that you've learnt much in visual art
("This thing is clear to me, namely that ...")

Fpìrmìl oel futa aynga natsew tsive’a fi’ut
I was just thinking that you'd want to see this
("I was just thinking this thing, namely that ...")

Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron
(I) request to have the Dream Hunt
("I request thus: ...")

So, to sum up: futa acts as the object of the primary verb (which must be transitive), fwa acts as the subject of the primary verb (which must not be transitive), and tsnì connects a subordinate clause to an intransitive primary verb. I think someone suggested the derivation tsa+: "that-ly", "thus".



msg=120570 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 15:41:33 | u=1485

Re: Combining our efforts

Erimeyz

That's an excellent explanation of a confusing (and frequently confused) subject.  Is there canonical support for it?

  - Eri



msg=120597 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 16:10:09 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg120570#msg120570 date=1267371693]
That's an excellent explanation of a confusing (and frequently confused) subject.  Is there canonical support for it?
[/quote]
In the sense that this is how these forms are used in all canon occurrences, yes. The general structure is elaborated upon [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]here[/url] (Dec 27), including the "namely that" device.



msg=120710 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 17:06:51 | u=3552

Re: Combining our efforts

tigermind

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg120342#msg120342 date=1267358941]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg119852#msg119852 date=1267318327]
Completely unrelated, but has anybody asked Karyu Pawl to clarify how we use tsnì?  I'm still mightily confused by that one.
[/quote]

I think of it as that which you use when futa is not possible, because the primary verb is intransitive:

Oel fpìl futa poanìl tskot tìyìng poer
I think that he's about to give the bow to her

Oe ätxäle si tsnì poanìl tskot tivìng poer
I request that he give the bow to her

Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer
I hope that he'll give the bow to her
[/quote]

Ah, that makes a lot of sense.  Irayo, ma tsmukan.  Okay, i retract my question; Karyu Pawl has quite enough on his plate.



msg=120872 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 18:21:15 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg120555#msg120555 date=1267371279]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120531#msg120531 date=1267370416]
But what about fwa then?

I think fwa vs tsnì is on a similar level to na vs pxel.
[/quote]

Fwa (fì'u a) is the subjective counterpart to futa (fì'ut a), so it's not used in the same way.

Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan
It's clear to me that you've learnt much in visual art
("This thing is clear to me, namely that ...")

Fpìrmìl oel futa aynga natsew tsive’a fi’ut
I was just thinking that you'd want to see this
("I was just thinking this thing, namely that ...")

Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron
(I) request to have the Dream Hunt
("I request thus: ...")

So, to sum up: futa acts as the object of the primary verb (which must be transitive), fwa acts as the subject of the primary verb (which must not be transitive), and tsnì connects a subordinate clause to an intransitive primary verb. I think someone suggested the derivation tsa+: "that-ly", "thus".
[/quote]

Fwa is not subjective. It is not a counterpart to futa at all. Tsnì is also used with intransitive verbs. The subjective counterpart to futa would not be consistent. In intransitive verbs, it would indeed be fwa, other times it would be fì'ul a or a contraction thereof.

Tsnì is probably the predicative equivalent, not the intransitive equivalent. Still, it would be nice to have this confirmed.



msg=120943 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 18:46:01 | u=1620

Re: Combining our efforts

dontbugme

Kaltxì
the following has been discussed here:
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/ay-me/?topicseen]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/ay-me/?topicseen[/url]
i think its worth beeing added to the list

when you want to say that many pairs of eyes see more than one pair, i thought you might say that this way in na'vi:

aymenari to menari kame txan

so the question is: can these prefixes be combined or how else could it be expressed in a good way?



msg=121343 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 21:11:06 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

As I commented in that other thread, me- is not "Pair of", in a sense of a set, it's just two.  So "Many two eyes" - it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  We'd probably need a word specifically for "pair" (Probably based off mune and teng somehow, something like munteng).



msg=121744 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:19:32 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120872#msg120872 date=1267381275]
Fwa is not subjective. It is not a counterpart to futa at all. Tsnì is also used with intransitive verbs. The subjective counterpart to futa would not be consistent. In intransitive verbs, it would indeed be fwa, other times it would be fì'ul a or a contraction thereof.
[/quote]
So you're basically saying that fwa is not the subjective counterpart to futa, except when it is? ;)
But yeah, it can only be used when the main verb is intransitive, otherwise the fì'u part would need to be in the ergative:

Tsu'tey zolup a fì'ul heykolangham Neytirit
That Tsu'tey fell made Neytiri laugh

I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...

As for tsnì also being used with intransitive verbs, the syntactic environment is different there. In sentences with things like fpìl futa ... or lu fwa ..., fì'u is acting as either the direct object or intransitive subject of the main verb. In a sentence like oe ätxäle si tsnì ..., the main verb already has a subject, and due to [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]its being intrinsically intransitive[/url] (Jan 21), it cannot have an accusative object. In the previous two cases the subordinate clause functions attributively to define fì'u, which in turn takes on the role as one of the core arguments of the main verb, but in the last case the SC lacks this explicit connection for the aforementioned reason -- and that's what tsnì is for.

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120872#msg120872 date=1267381275]
Tsnì is probably the predicative equivalent, not the intransitive equivalent.
[/quote]
I don't follow this. Explain, please?



msg=121755 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:27:22 | u=54

Re: Combining our efforts

Tiger

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg121744#msg121744 date=1267399172]
I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...
[/quote]I'm not so sure...  How many times have you used "fì'ul a" in Na'vi?  I don't think I ever have.



msg=121775 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:45:46 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg121755#msg121755 date=1267399642]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg121744#msg121744 date=1267399172]
I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...
[/quote]I'm not so sure...  How many times have you used "fì'ul a" in Na'vi?  I don't think I ever have.
[/quote]

Until now, never. :)
In fact, it took a while to come up with an example sentence that worked, so I'm also guessing that it doesn't occur much. I'm just saying that if it does, that particular contraction would not raise my eyebrows.



msg=122162 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 07:10:11 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

So to make sure I understand this, in the following Frommer sentence
[quote]Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si.[/quote]

He uses fwa and not tsnì because he is essentially saying "it fills me" where that entire phrase functions as a direct object.  I'm not sure if it's possible to create a particular sentence with teya si where I would use tsnì, but if I could, what follows [desc=tsnì]it[/desc] would have to be a clause that could function as an independent sentence. 

Correct?



msg=122196 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 08:11:45 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg121744#msg121744 date=1267399172]
So you're basically saying that fwa is not the subjective counterpart to futa, except when it is? ;)

I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...

As for tsnì also being used with intransitive verbs, the syntactic environment is different there. In sentences with things like fpìl futa ... or lu fwa ..., fì'u is acting as either the direct object or intransitive subject of the main verb. In a sentence like oe ätxäle si tsnì ..., the main verb already has a subject, and due to [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]its being intrinsically intransitive[/url] (Jan 21), it cannot have an accusative object. In the previous two cases the subordinate clause functions attributively to define fì'u, which in turn takes on the role as one of the core arguments of the main verb, but in the last case the SC lacks this explicit connection for the aforementioned reason -- and that's what tsnì is for.

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120872#msg120872 date=1267381275]
Tsnì is probably the predicative equivalent, not the intransitive equivalent.
[/quote]
I don't follow this. Explain, please?
[/quote]

1. Essentially. I was just pointing out that calling it the subjective counterpart can be misleading.

2. It's unlikely to have been contracted given how rarely it's used. I'd expect it to stay as fì'ul a

3. see 4.

4. It essentially the "non-accusative object" you described in 3. is called a predicate. If I say "He is a hunter", hunter is a predicative noun; if I say "you seem honest" honest is a predicative adjective; if I say "it seems that you are strong" then "that you are strong" is a predicative phrase, that said, in this case I'd use an inferential in lu instead but the point stands.



msg=122242 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 09:17:58 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg122162#msg122162 date=1267427411]
So to make sure I understand this, in the following Frommer sentence
[quote]Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si.[/quote]

He uses fwa and not tsnì because he is essentially saying "it fills me" where that entire phrase functions as a direct object.  I'm not sure if it's possible to create a particular sentence with teya si where I would use tsnì, but if I could, what follows [desc=tsnì]it[/desc] would have to be a clause that could function as an independent sentence. 

Correct?
[/quote]

Intransitive subject, not direct object:

Fì'u a sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si

The independent clause is fì'u oeru teya si this thing fills me (with joy), and the subordinate clause defines the subject of this clause by way of a. It seems to me that the structure of the teya si idiom is always "X fills me", and not "[it] fills me that X", where you would need a dummy subject; therefore no tsnì.



msg=122251 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 09:38:25 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122196#msg122196 date=1267431105]
If I say "He is a hunter", hunter is a predicative noun; if I say "you seem honest" honest is a predicative adjective; if I say "it seems that you are strong" then "that you are strong" is a predicative phrase, that said, in this case I'd use an inferential in lu instead but the point stands.
[/quote]

Of course, but what does this have to do with sentences like these?

Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer

Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122196#msg122196 date=1267431105]
It essentially the "non-accusative object" you described in 3. is called a predicate.
[/quote]

I honestly cannot see how you could come to this conclusion.



msg=122264 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 10:01:53 | u=664

Re: Combining our efforts

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg120555#msg120555 date=1267371279]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120531#msg120531 date=1267370416]
But what about fwa then?

I think fwa vs tsnì is on a similar level to na vs pxel.
[/quote]

Fwa (fì'u a) is the subjective counterpart to futa (fì'ut a), so it's not used in the same way.

Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan
It's clear to me that you've learnt much in visual art
("This thing is clear to me, namely that ...")

Fpìrmìl oel futa aynga natsew tsive’a fi’ut
I was just thinking that you'd want to see this
("I was just thinking this thing, namely that ...")

Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron
(I) request to have the Dream Hunt
("I request thus: ...")

So, to sum up: futa acts as the object of the primary verb (which must be transitive), fwa acts as the subject of the primary verb (which must not be transitive), and tsnì connects a subordinate clause to an intransitive primary verb. I think someone suggested the derivation tsa+: "that-ly", "thus".
[/quote]

Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang. 

or non-primary verb:
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.

Probably not the best examples, but would "fwa" be the subject of the primary verb in any of these sentences?  [IANAL] Or do you think we should use fì'u a in these cases?

-Keyl



msg=122310 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 11:17:42 | u=2873

Re: Combining our efforts

Skyinou

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang. 
[/quote]
With lu or slu, there is like two subject.
"oe lu skxawng" with free word order is either "i'm a moron" or "a moron is me", so in your two examples "fwa" act as the subject + "a".



msg=122472 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 15:09:06 | u=3552

Re: Combining our efforts

tigermind

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.

-Keyl
[/quote]

I love you a little <3



msg=122483 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 15:17:50 | u=195

Re: Combining our efforts

esoanem

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg122251#msg122251 date=1267436305]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122196#msg122196 date=1267431105]
If I say "He is a hunter", hunter is a predicative noun; if I say "you seem honest" honest is a predicative adjective; if I say "it seems that you are strong" then "that you are strong" is a predicative phrase, that said, in this case I'd use an inferential in lu instead but the point stands.
[/quote]

Of course, but what does this have to do with sentences like these?

Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer

Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122196#msg122196 date=1267431105]
It essentially the "non-accusative object" you described in 3. is called a predicate.
[/quote]

I honestly cannot see how you could come to this conclusion.
[/quote]

1. I was explaining how to use tsnì treating it as a predicate.

2. Just reread the wikipedia page and it turns out that I'm using it in [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_(grammar)]the traditional sense[/url] which may be causing the conclusion. Predicatives often behave like objects (e.g. with word order in non-free word order languages) when used with intransitive verbs.

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang. 

or non-primary verb:
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.

Probably not the best examples, but would "fwa" be the subject of the primary verb in any of these sentences?  [IANAL] Or do you think we should use fì'u a in these cases?
[/quote]

I was thinking this after I posted and have now come to the conclusion that thinking of tsnì as a seperate word or as any sort of equivalent to futa is fruitless.

It is now my opinion that tsnì is an just a function word used in certain sentences.

I mean, fwa can, as Keyl rightly points out, be used predicatively as well as subjectively but only in intransitive verbs. Futa is accusative and fì'ul a is subjective in transitive verbs. There are no gaps and so tsnì cannot be part of this set of words.

[desc=AFAIK]OOF[/desc] tsnì is only attested with sìlpey and ätxäle si. I propose that these are irregular formations.



msg=122612 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 16:41:51 | u=664

Re: Combining our efforts

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3577.msg122310#msg122310 date=1267442262]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang.  
[/quote]
With lu or slu, there is like two subject.
"oe lu skxawng" with free word order is either "i'm a moron" or "a moron is me", so in your two examples "fwa" act as the subject + "a".
[/quote]

I can't see how slu has two subjects, one has to be suboridante to the other or how would you sort out this:

A parrot became my friend != My friend became a parrot.

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122483#msg122483 date=1267456670]

I was thinking this after I posted and have now come to the conclusion that thinking of tsnì as a seperate word or as any sort of equivalent to futa is fruitless.
[/quote]

I think tsnì is needed in the intransitive sentence because there is no "fì'u" to attach the "a" to. I always thought that the fì'u couldn't be just thrown into a sentence where it doesn't have a place to legally live, just like you can't use the word "it" in the predacate of the sentence "I sleep".  

-Keyl



msg=122773 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:03:27 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang.  

or non-primary verb:
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.

Probably not the best examples, but would "fwa" be the subject of the primary verb in any of these sentences?  [IANAL] Or do you think we should use fì'u a in these cases?
[/quote]

That's a very valid point.

Neytiriyä tìyawn lu fwa (tsat) Tsu'teyìl new
Neytiri's love is that which Tsu'tey wants

The question then becomes to what extent the Na'vi would construct such utterances, and to what extent (if any) fwa is considered lexicalized or restricted to certain types of sentences. While it is true that we have only seen it in non-predicative situations so far, there should be no a priori reason to presume that it could not work in that way. As far as that goes, I stand corrected.

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122483#msg122483 date=1267456670]
I mean, fwa can, as Keyl rightly points out, be used predicatively as well as subjectively but only in intransitive verbs. Futa is accusative and fì'ul a is subjective in transitive verbs. There are no gaps and so tsnì cannot be part of this set of words.
[/quote]

Precisely. However:

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122612#msg122612 date=1267461711]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122483#msg122483 date=1267456670]
I was thinking this after I posted and have now come to the conclusion that thinking of tsnì as a seperate word or as any sort of equivalent to futa is fruitless.
[/quote]
I think tsnì is needed in the intransitive sentence because there is no "fì'u" to attach the "a" to. I always thought that the fì'u couldn't be just thrown into a sentence where it doesn't have a place to legally live, just like you can't use the word "it" in the predacate of the sentence "I sleep".  
[/quote]

That's just it: when any variant of fì'u cannot be inserted, but there should still be a connection between the primary verb and a secondary clause, tsnì can be the way to go. To exemplify:

Oel new futa kivä ne kelku
I want to go home

Oel sìlpey futa ayoe kìyevä ne kelku ye'rìn
Oe sìlpey tsnì ayoe kìyevä ne kelku ye'rìn
I hope that we'll go home soon

In this sense (and this sense only), I think tsnì could be thought of as corresponding to futa.

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122483#msg122483 date=1267456670]
[desc=AFAIK]OOF[/desc] tsnì is only attested with sìlpey and ätxäle si. I propose that these are irregular formations.
[/quote]

Let me throw out some other formations and see what happens:

Oe txopu si tsnì fkol Kelutralit skiva'a
I'm afraid that Hometree might be destroyed

Oe tìng nari tsnì Eytukanìl tsperang yerikit
I observe Eytukan's killing a hexapede

Oe fmayi tsnì zong awngeyä olo'it
I will try to save our clan

Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters

Could any of those work? Why? Why not?
It may well be so that the group of verbs with which tsnì can be used is very (or even extremely) limited, and that we don't get to see or use it very often.



msg=122834 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:28:45 | u=664

Re: Combining our efforts

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg122773#msg122773 date=1267466607]
Oe fmayi tsnì zong awngeyä olo'it
I will try to save our clan
[/quote]

I think this is the only one that might not work, if only because I have no frelling clue how to use fmi correctly.  (add it to the list!)  Personally, I hope it is transitive, but if it is not I would say:

Oe fmayi fte (tsivun) zivong awngeyä olo'it
I will try to save our clan

[quote]
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters
[/quote]

I was just thinking that *fura (or whatever "fì'ur + a" becomes, if anything) might be fun here... if there were such a thing.

-Keyl

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg122472#msg122472 date=1267456146]
I love you a little <3
[/quote]

Haha, thanks, I'm just glad someone got the reference.  ;D



msg=122850 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:35:15 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122834#msg122834 date=1267468125]
I have no frelling clue how to use fmi correctly[/quote]
Me neither! ;)

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122834#msg122834 date=1267468125]
[quote]
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters
[/quote]
I was just thinking that *fura (or whatever "fì'ur + a" becomes, if anything) might be fun here... if there were such a thing.
[/quote]
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]There is[/url]: (Jan 20)

Furia ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole', ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan



msg=122858 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:40:52 | u=3552

Re: Combining our efforts

tigermind

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg122850#msg122850 date=1267468515]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122834#msg122834 date=1267468125]
I have no frelling clue how to use fmi correctly[/quote]
Me neither! ;)

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122834#msg122834 date=1267468125]
[quote]
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters
[/quote]
I was just thinking that *fura (or whatever "fì'ur + a" becomes, if anything) might be fun here... if there were such a thing.
[/quote]
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]There is[/url]: (Jan 20)

Furia ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole', ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan
[/quote]

That's not the same thing.  Furia is a contraction of Fì'uri a; i think tsmukan Keyl is getting at Fì'ur(u) a--srake?



msg=122895 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:58:14 | u=2788

Re: Combining our efforts

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg122858#msg122858 date=1267468852]
That's not the same thing.  Furia is a contraction of Fì'uri a; i think tsmukan Keyl is getting at Fì'ur(u) a--srake?
[/quote]

Ah! I did indeed misread that. Oeru txoa livu.



msg=123252 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 21:51:04 | u=1225

Re: Combining our efforts

neotrekkerz

[quote]Intransitive subject, not direct object:[/quote]

Yes, of course.  Had a "special" moment there. 



msg=131161 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-06 11:42:53 | u=631

Re: Combining our efforts

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]A request to the mods

Can somebody please insert the discussion on fwa, futa and tsnì into the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/futa-fwa-tsni-a-help!/]related thread[/url]? Makes it easier to find.
Very confusing to find that here - even if some of it is speculation and conjecture...

Irayo :)



msg=71064 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:42:14 | u=2649

The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tiriuä

I sent an email to Frommer inquiring about the reflexive infix and he responded! Here's a copy of the email:
[quote]Kaltxì ma oeyä 'eylan,

Thanks for the questions, Jake. (Good name for someone who likes Avatar!)

I guess I haven't mentioned anything about the reflexive yet. Here's a quick explanation:

The reflexive is formed with an infix -äp- that's in "pre-first" position--that is, it comes before the familiar infixes in first position.

So:

I see myself.  = Oe tsäpe'a.

Note: There's no pronoun "myself"--all you need is the infix. And it's oe, not oel.

You've seen yourself. = Nga tsäpole'a.

Be careful to keep the stress in the original place. Since for tse'a the stress is on the final a, that's where it stays in all the inflected forms.

They'll see themselves. = (Ay)fo tsäpaye'a.

wash = yur

So:

I wash myself. = Oe yäpur.
I'm washing myself. = Oe yäperur.

Tslolam srak? :-)

As for "My name is . . ."

You COULD say

Tstxo oeyä lu ___.

tstxo = name

But that's not the idiomatic way to say it. Instead, you say "They call me . . ." (which is of course common in many earth languages as well).

The grammar here is tricky:

Oeru syaw fko ___.

Things to note:

syaw 'call' is intransitive: you call TO someone. That's why it's fko, not fkol, and oeru, not oeti. (Fko, as I think you know, means 'one' or 'they' in the general sense.) The actual name as almost like an adverb in this construction: To say "My name is Jake," you actually say something like, "They call to me in a Jake way." :-)

The question, by the way, is:

Fyape fko syaw ngar?

Literally: How does one call you?

So a typical little conversation is:

--Fyape fko syaw ngar?
--Oeru syaw fko Neytiri. Ngaru tut?
--Oeru syaw Tseyk.

In the last sentence, "fko" is understood. You could actually leave it out in the 2nd sentences as well. Ngar and ngaru are used interchangeably--pick the one you think sounds better in its position. And "tut" is a "particle of continuation"--here you'd translate "ngaru tut" as "And how about you?"

Hope that helps! Feel free to share . . .

Kìyevame.

Pawl


[/quote]

So alot of questions answered! That reflexive infix and how someone would introduce themselves with their name!



msg=71071 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:47:11 | u=3431

Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)

demonmaestro

oootttttzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!



msg=71080 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:52:26 | u=21

Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)

wm.annis

Suh-weet!

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Reflexives_and_Naming]Canonified[/url].

The yur wash example is very suggestive of some interesting transitivity matters.



msg=71083 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:53:47 | u=2325

Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)

suomichris

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3589.msg71080#msg71080 date=1265071946]
Suh-weet!

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Reflexives_and_Naming]Canonified[/url].

The yur wash example is very suggestive of some interesting transitivity matters.
[/quote]Weeeeeee!

And, yeah, looks like the reflexive is both reflexivizing and reducing the valency of the verb.  Not surprising, I suppose, but cool!



msg=71085 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:57:28 | u=2649

Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tiriuä

Yeah it is so exciting...and the introductions using names too! Paul Frommer is the best!



msg=71086 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:57:35 | u=21

Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)

wm.annis

Oh, gosh — tut is very interesting, too.

I've been using Ulte ngaru srak? as a followup to being asked how I am via ngaru lu fpom srak.  Looks like ngaru tut will work for that, too.



msg=71099 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 01:02:08 | u=664

Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3589.msg71086#msg71086 date=1265072255]
Oh, gosh — tut is very interesting, too.

I've been using Ulte ngaru srak? as a followup to being asked how I am via ngaru lu fpom srak.  Looks like ngaru tut will work for that, too.
[/quote]

Tut is definitely interesting! (says the guy who loves particles) :)

-Keyl



msg=71117 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 01:16:28 | u=54

Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tiger

Sweet, I can finally stop telling people not to use "syaw" for giving their name, and start telling them how to do it correctly!



msg=71166 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 01:54:04 | u=2649

Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tiriuä

Yeah the name thing is huge!



msg=71254 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:29:48 | u=1485

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Erimeyz

SCOOOOOOORE!



msg=71277 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:39:18 | u=1317

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

manly squeeeeeeeeee!



msg=71279 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:42:29 | u=282

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Java

Is this rule going to be added to the pocket guide or other grammar guides? I hope so  :)



msg=71283 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:44:21 | u=2649

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tseyk Tiriua

I'm sure it will be added shortly (they are good with this kind of stuff).



msg=71288 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:46:44 | u=42

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

omegaorb

Excellent, great to know I can now properly introduce myself :) Its been bugging me for a while.



msg=71327 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:05:54 | u=2649

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tseyk Tiriua

Yes haha enough of that poorly slapped together intro grammar! xD



msg=71602 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 08:38:27 | u=1244

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Eight

New merchandise idea...

"We <3 Frommer"

I've never needed the reflexive yet but I feel strangely warm inside now that I know it's here. It's like a little part of me that was missing has just found its own way back.



msg=71636 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 09:51:17 | u=631

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Great!

I've noticed now a lot of specific sentence construction (idioms? phrases?) with "my name is...", "I love you" and "I have" and I'm sure I'm missing out on others - has anyone tried to collect them to put them into a document?

Other thing that I noticed - Frommer calls it pre-first position. Does that speak against the theory (I don't know who came up with it in the first place) of3 infix positions?



msg=71643 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 09:56:55 | u=54

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tiger

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3589.msg71636#msg71636 date=1265104277]
[font=Garamond]Great!

I've noticed now a lot of specific sentence construction (idioms? phrases?) with "my name is...", "I love you" and "I have" and I'm sure I'm missing out on others - has anyone tried to collect them to put them into a document?

Other thing that I noticed - Frommer calls it pre-first position. Does that speak against the theory (I don't know who came up with it in the first place) of3 infix positions?

[/quote]
That's actually a [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/navi-expressions-and-idioms/]very good idea[/url]... :D  I figured with how many expressions we have at this point, it was about time to think about such a collection.

And about the 2 vs 3 infix positions, Frommer has always called it two, because there are two positions.  The penultimate and the ultimate syllable positions.  The 3 positions is just adding a third label.  IMO it's not a good idea, but I'm sure I've made that clear in my other thread.  I'm not sure if it will be possible to convince the people teaching it that it is a bad idea though.



msg=71666 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 10:30:55 | u=1120

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3589.msg71643#msg71643 date=1265104615]
And about the 2 vs 3 infix positions, Frommer has always called it two, because there are two positions.  The penultimate and the ultimate syllable positions.  The 3 positions is just adding a third label.  IMO it's not a good idea, but I'm sure I've made that clear in my other thread.  I'm not sure if it will be possible to convince the people teaching it that it is a bad idea though.
[/quote]
That may depend on how much we know about the language. When all we knew of position 1 / pre-1 was the participle, which we still don't know how to use properly, calling that "position 1" and the TAM markers "position 2" was a way to keep things separated. Now that we can start inflecting verbs on our own with both "pre-1" and TAM, we can create enough examples to illustrate the diff, and pretending there are 3 separate infix positions is IMO no longer required. We can just say that when TAM and non-TAM are both used, non-TAM comes first; when two TAM markers are used, aspect infixes into tense and both infix into mood, and that when two tense markers are used, AFAIK they go in temporal order. That's just a way of juggling multiple infixes in position 1, a problem that does not occur w position 2 because only one infix can occur there at a time.



msg=71670 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 10:39:35 | u=54

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tiger

We know as much about the participle now as we did then though.  The only thing we know now that we didn't know then is how subjunctive and tense meld, and what the reflexive infix is.  The rest we either had a correct assumption about or still don't know.  The participle being pre-first, for example, is based on a statement from Frommer that is unclear at best.



msg=71698 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:05:17 | u=1120

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3589.msg71670#msg71670 date=1265107175]
We know as much about the participle now as we did then though.  The only thing we know now that we didn't know then is how subjunctive and tense meld, and what the reflexive infix is.  The rest we either had a correct assumption about or still don't know.  The participle being pre-first, for example, is based on a statement from Frommer that is unclear at best.
[/quote]
But we now have the reflexive in pre-1st, and we know how and when to use that -- at least in clear cases.



msg=71707 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:19:00 | u=54

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tiger

Right, but we KNEW reflexive was pre-first already, we just didn't know what the infix was or how to use it.  So reserving a spot JUST for something we didn't even know seems a little silly.  The participle MAY be pre-first, but it may also be first.  We know the infix, but we don't know the details of it's use, so again reserving a spot for it seems a little silly.



msg=72347 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 16:20:16 | u=132

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Taronyu

[quote author=Tseyk Tìriuä link=topic=3589.msg71283#msg71283 date=1265082261]
I'm sure it will be added shortly (they are good with this kind of stuff).
[/quote]

Cheers.

I'll put this in mine later. Got stuff to do, currently.



msg=72545 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:32:21 | u=195

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

esoanem

I knew I should have read the second page of this thread before checking to see if it was in the dictionary.  :-[

Sorry, I posted this in the dictionary thread.


Anyway, squueeeeeeeeeeeee!!!! Three more idioms!!!!!



msg=73507 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 00:26:24 | u=2649

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tseyk Tiriua

I didn't want to bombard Frommer with 50 questions those confused about infixes.  For now this is a gold mine of information. xD



msg=79729 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 02:55:47 | u=3552

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

tigermind

Okay, so i have a question about using the reflexive:  Any thoughts on how we would differentiate between "we see ourselves" vs. "we see each other"?



msg=79877 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 05:23:36 | u=1120

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

roger

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3589.msg79729#msg79729 date=1265424947]
Okay, so i have a question about using the reflexive:  Any thoughts on how we would differentiate between "we see ourselves" vs. "we see each other"?
[/quote]

That's the $64 question.



msg=79894 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 05:48:53 | u=664

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3589.msg79729#msg79729 date=1265424947]
Okay, so i have a question about using the reflexive:  Any thoughts on how we would differentiate between "we see ourselves" vs. "we see each other"?
[/quote]

Hmmmm, I don't think that "we see each other" is reflexive, it's reciprocal.  Until we have a formation for "each other" or "one another", I think you'll just have to spell it out, i.e:

Oel ngati kame ulte/tengfya/tengkrr ngal oeti kame. or something like that.

-Keyl




msg=79915 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 06:33:09 | u=2649

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tseyk Tiriua

We see each other isn't reflexive...this is for things like "we see ourselves" only.



msg=80607 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:16:59 | u=3552

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

tigermind

Okay, okay, reciprocal is not reflexive--don't shoot the neuro student =)



msg=80735 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:37:56 | u=2649

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tseyk Tiriua

Haha alright we won't...this time



msg=81582 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 01:16:27 | u=1120

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

roger

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3589.msg80607#msg80607 date=1265473019]
Okay, okay, reciprocal is not reflexive--don't shoot the neuro student =)
[/quote]

But there are plenty of languages that use it as one. That might be a little too European to be in Na'vi, but you never know.



msg=81780 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 04:04:19 | u=3832

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

obiwan1

That's a great new addition  ;D



msg=81829 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 05:10:42 | u=2649

Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Tseyk Tiriua

I know I was so excited when he emailed me back xD



msg=71184 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:10:38 | u=2046

A new word for dictionary?

Utral Aymokriyä

Kaltxì ma smuk.

tsawlapxangrr = tall large root.

if,
tsawl = tall
apxa = large

so,
ngrr = root?

any critics?



msg=71189 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:14:52 | u=21

Re: A new word for dictionary?

wm.annis

Words sometimes get clipped when they are put into compounds.  Ngrr might be good, but it could be missing some parts, too.



msg=71661 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 10:25:23 | u=631

Re: A new word for dictionary?

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I was thinking about that as well the last time I went through the dictionary, ma Utrayä, and discarded the idea for the same reason that William gave.

But I don't know. Ask Taronyu, he's the Master of the Diction-ized Words ;) Derivations can always be marked by *
If people take it as a given is their choice.

Kìyevame



msg=71800 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 12:17:51 | u=132

Re: A new word for dictionary?

Taronyu

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3598.msg71661#msg71661 date=1265106323]
But I don't know. Ask Taronyu, he's the Master of the Diction-ized Words ;) Derivations can always be marked by *
If people take it as a given is their choice.
[/quote]

No need to ask. I've added it. Can't believe I missed that, myself.



msg=72309 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 16:06:22 | u=2046

Re: A new word for dictionary?

Utral Aymokriyä

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3598.msg71800#msg71800 date=1265113071]Can't believe I missed that, myself.
[/quote]

Thats because you are a human lol :D
There are almost 700 words in the dictionary and its quite normal u missed it.
Thank you for your doing this, im glad if i did a good thing to help people who works in this Na´vi growing thing for us.

Thank you all :)



msg=73021 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:05:52 | u=1011

Re: A new word for dictionary?

Kiliyä

Could also be angrr or engrr or ängrr.



msg=82391 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 14:07:00 | u=3845

Re: A new word for dictionary?

ikngopyu

Kaltxì, ma smukan sì smuke, ulte Eywa ayngahu !

I was wondering how the word "iknimaya", which is composed of the word "ik" that means "heaven, sky or mountain", could be analysed. In fact, in Taronyu dictionary's (which is my new Na'vi bible ^^),  we have :

[quote]*ik: [ik^] D n. heaven, sky, mountain derived
from ik-ni-maya stairway to heaven and
ikran walks the sky

Iknimaya: [iknimaja] C;S prop.n. Stairway to
Heaven, the rite of passage for young Na’vi[/quote]

So "ik-ni-maya" could be translate as "stairway to heaven/sky/mountain". Moreover, in [url=http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Iknimaya]http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Iknimaya[/url] , they say that "iknimaya" means "path to heaven".
Then, could "ik-ni-maya" be constructed of :

ik = heaven, sky, mountain
ni = ne: [nE] S prep. to, towards
maya = path

irayo !



msg=82674 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 16:45:07 | u=3845

Re: A new word for dictionary?

ikngopyu

In Taronyu dictionary's, some "tì–" noun deriving affix are included, like tìpawm or tìspxin. Why not adding tìsteftxaw, from steftxaw ?



msg=82936 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 18:44:19 | u=195

Re: A new word for dictionary?

esoanem

[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=3598.msg82391#msg82391 date=1265551620]
ik = heaven, sky, mountain
ni = ne: [nE] S prep. to, towards
maya = path
[/quote]

Maybe -ni is the post-positional allomorph of ne, AFAIK the only examples of ne we have attested are prepositional ones.



msg=83147 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:08:55 | u=1120

Re: A new word for dictionary?

roger

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3598.msg82936#msg82936 date=1265568259]
[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=3598.msg82391#msg82391 date=1265551620]
ik = heaven, sky, mountain
ni = ne: [nE] S prep. to, towards
maya = path
[/quote]

Maybe -ni is the post-positional allomorph of ne, AFAIK the only examples of ne we have attested are prepositional ones.
[/quote]

It would have to be for that word. We have terìran ayoe ayngane "we are walking your way".

Where do we attest to ne as a prep?



msg=83182 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:23:42 | u=195

Re: A new word for dictionary?

esoanem

When did we get that phrase.

Having looked through the corpus we don't have any attested examples of -ne- anywhere.  :-[



msg=83187 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:26:09 | u=21

Re: A new word for dictionary?

wm.annis

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3598.msg83182#msg83182 date=1265574222]When did we get that phrase.[/quote]

From the ASG — the Hunt Song.



msg=83189 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:27:24 | u=195

Re: A new word for dictionary?

esoanem

Ok, that would explain why it's not in the corpus despite being known to be correct. (copyright right?)



msg=83237 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:47:24 | u=132

Re: A new word for dictionary?

Taronyu

[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=3598.msg82391#msg82391 date=1265551620]
Kaltxì, ma smukan sì smuke, ulte Eywa ayngahu !

I was wondering how the word "iknimaya", which is composed of the word "ik" that means "heaven, sky or mountain", could be analysed. In fact, in Taronyu dictionary's (which is my new Na'vi bible ^^),  we have :

[quote]*ik: [ik^] D n. heaven, sky, mountain derived
from ik-ni-maya stairway to heaven and
ikran walks the sky

Iknimaya: [iknimaja] C;S prop.n. Stairway to
Heaven, the rite of passage for young Na’vi[/quote]

So "ik-ni-maya" could be translate as "stairway to heaven/sky/mountain". Moreover, in [url=http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Iknimaya]http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Iknimaya[/url] , they say that "iknimaya" means "path to heaven".
Then, could "ik-ni-maya" be constructed of :

ik = heaven, sky, mountain
ni = ne: [nE] S prep. to, towards
maya = path
[/quote]

Due to the nature of ni, it's hard to tell whether it actually out to be ne. I've thought about it, but decided not to include it in my dictionary.

This has been brought up before, on the original [url=http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1977]Frommer's blog post[/url].



msg=83363 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 21:50:22 | u=3845

Re: A new word for dictionary?

ikngopyu

Ayngeyä tì’eynga tìpawmìri ayngaru seiyi oe irayo ! (I hope that's correct  :) )



msg=83484 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 23:32:00 | u=73

Re: A new word for dictionary?

Prrton

[quote author=Utrayä Mokri link=topic=3598.msg71184#msg71184 date=1265076638]
Kaltxì ma smuk.

tsawlapxangrr = tall large root.

if,
tsawl = tall
apxa = large

so,
ngrr = root?

any critics?

[/quote]

I think that ngrr could easily be the root of "root" or even the whole word. Hard to say. The similarity with prrnen ("infant") and prrnesyul ("bud" of a plant) is one of the factors that leads me to think it likely. But, I'm not sure, of course.  ;)



msg=73716 | topic=3699 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 05:00:06 | u=21

MOVED: Some fixings in the Dictionary

wm.annis

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=3696.0[/iurl]



msg=75280 | topic=3751 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 22:05:47 | u=54

MOVED: Word for Sorry

omängum fra'uti

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=12]Vocab / Phrases[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=3750.0[/iurl]



msg=79876 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 05:22:36 | u=1120

new interview

roger

Looks like a new interview is coming up in a few hours:

[url=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/stories/2010/2810226.htm]http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/stories/2010/2810226.htm[/url]

Hopefully it will be archived for those of us who miss it!



msg=79886 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 05:38:42 | u=664

Re: new interview

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=roger link=topic=3914.msg79876#msg79876 date=1265433756]
Looks like a new interview is coming up in a few hours:

[url=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/stories/2010/2810226.htm]http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/stories/2010/2810226.htm[/url]

Hopefully it will be archived for those of us who miss it!
[/quote]

[url=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/]http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/[/url] Top link.

No new words, but he talks about us! :)

-Keyl



msg=79984 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 08:10:48 | u=1485

Re: new interview

Erimeyz

What an incredible accent the host has!  Just astonishing, and beautiful.  To my woefully pedestrian American ears, an "Australian" accent is this monolithic caricature of Crocodile Dundee and the voiceover announcer for Outback Steakhouse commercials.  Ms. Zijlstra, however, combines the distinctive (can I say "quirky" and not be hated?) Australian vowel sounds with the silky-smooth cadence and refined diction that I've come to expect from the best hosts on National Public Radio.  Delightful!

... okay, sorry.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled swooning over Dr. Frommer. :)

  - Eri



msg=79997 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 08:24:53 | u=1

Re: new interview

Seabass

I'm in love with the host's accent.

Also, smallish transcription of his plug for our site. LearnNavi plug starts around 6:20
[quote]

Do you converse with anyone in it, or do you talk to yourself, or is there somebody else who you chat with in it?

Well, at this point, in terms of aural practice, I really don't have anyone. However, what's absolutely extraordinary, and what I find astonishing, is that I am getting people writing me emails in Na'vi. And this is something I never expected. You know, there is a certain amount of information that's out there, some which the studio put out themselves. And I've explained a few things in various formats to various journalists and so on.

So, given that—and also given a book that the studio published, which had a small version of the dictionary in it—there are people who have been working like crazy, trying to master the language, and it's been quite remarkable. Some of them are really good!

You sound surprised.

Well, I frankly never thought that there would be that much interest in the language. But there is now a website, which I had nothing to do with.. and the studio had nothing to do with, it was purely created by the fans: to help each other learn the language, which—last time I checked—had something around 58,000 (fifty-eight thousand) posts. And there are sub-forums on that website in, I think, 15 (fifteen) different languages. Really quite amazing.

Well, yes and no, because, it it isn't just weirdo people and professors of linguistics who like language. All of us have this incredible facility for languages... that's really the benchmark for—

Yes.

—being a human being. And so, and there are of course heaps of invented languages written for make-belief communities of beings, and some of them are in books like Tolkien's Quenya or Elvish. And in movies, you know, most famously the language used in Star Trek.

Klingon, of course.

[etcetc]
[/quote]



msg=80561 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 15:50:10 | u=21

Re: new interview

wm.annis

I love that the interviewer was so fastidious about getting the glottal stop in Na'vi correct.



msg=83784 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 04:56:25 | u=430

Re: new interview

TehMightyPirate

WOW! This is great. I honestly would love to pick Frommer's brain about all this, he seems like such a wonderful guy. Thanks for the link.

I noticed he mentioned the 58,000 posts (where as we have 80,000 right now) which leads me to believe that he's been lurking around here somewhere. Most interesting...HI FROMMER! :)

EDIT: Wow, right at the very end I see what you mean. Her pronunciation of Na'vi and eywa ngahu were damn good for someone who's never learned any Na'vi before, props to her.



msg=88070 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 06:39:44 | u=134

Re: new interview

vidvamp01

He is probably using a guest access, so that he can lurk anonymous.

The curiosity about what we are doing here must be entertaining for him just a little. =)



msg=88103 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 07:24:00 | u=465

Re: new interview

Hysvear

Outstanding! This is awesome.



msg=90200 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 03:09:02 | u=3993

Re: new interview

Lazureus

What a great interview.. Especially when hearing the Greeting in Na'vi from the man himself.



msg=91091 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 18:10:49 | u=699

Re: new interview

Doryban

Damn... No verbs? At all?

How does it nake sense? I would like to hear it  ;D



msg=91124 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 18:29:51 | u=1485

Re: new interview

Erimeyz

[quote author=Ayzìsìt Alenantang link=topic=3914.msg91091#msg91091 date=1265911849]
Damn... No verbs? At all?

How does it nake sense? I would like to hear it  ;D
[/quote]
Start [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%93len]here[/url].  Have fun!

  - Eri



msg=91748 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 23:13:35 | u=1244

Re: new interview

Eight

Anyone know anything about the BBC Radio program he mentions he was on with Marc Okrand?

Might still be on the iPlayer for all us UKians.



msg=91963 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 01:36:05 | u=1120

Re: new interview

roger

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3914.msg91124#msg91124 date=1265912991]
[quote author=Ayzìsìt Alenantang link=topic=3914.msg91091#msg91091 date=1265911849]
Damn... No verbs? At all?

How does it nake sense? I would like to hear it  ;D
[/quote]
Start [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%93len]here[/url].  Have fun!

  - Eri

[/quote]

There are no lexical verbs, but it looks like it has what are effectively auxiliary verbs. The tense, transitivity, and person marking we expect of verbs are all found on these. The lexical "verbal" meaning is found in what look like maybe adjectives or participles. There are Australian languages which do s.t. similar, if not so extreme: all verbal inflection is on one of a handful of auxiliaries, and the lexical verbal content is uninflected. Maybe midway between Kelen and languages we're more familiar with. (There are claims that these languages have only, say, six verbs, but that seems to be s.t. of a simplification.)



msg=92818 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 16:40:27 | u=0

Re: new interview

Swoka Swizaw

Seriously, I'm glad that I am a weirdo, so this all, at least, makes SOME sense. 'Course, I live in California, too... ;D

You know, being someone as sought after as Paul must be interesting, if not...tough. It would be fantastic if Faux would decide to release Na'vi (what really can't be theirs in the first place), so we might not have to seek karyu-Pawl so much. But, whatever is the case, Paul Frommer truly sounds like an awesome guy. Thank you, for your time, sir.



msg=80038 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 09:10:31 | u=73

Atan lucet in tenebris

Prrton


atan (n.) = illumination, lux, luz, luce,광선, 光, ljóssins, สุริย, światło, llum, Licht, ışık, světlo, golau, svetloba, रोशनी, תאורה...

[quote=Paul Frommer]Atan is a noun meaning “light” in the sense of “source of illumination.” It’s Jim Cameron’s word, actually. I don’t yet have a word for “light = not heavy”—“light” and “heavy” would be good ones to come up with.[/quote]

So there we go. One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.

Furia fìtxeleru atan soli ngenga, ngengaru irayo seruyi ayoeng, ma Pawl.

_____________________



msg=80048 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 09:16:58 | u=1485

Re: Atan lucet in tenebris

Erimeyz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]
So there we go. One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.
[/quote]
So said, [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Atan_Is_Illumination]so done[/url], is well.



msg=80098 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 09:51:59 | u=664

Re: Atan lucet in tenebris

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]

atan (n.) = illumination, lux, luz, luce,광선, 光, ljóssins, สุริย, światło, llum, Licht, ışık, světlo, golau, svetloba, रोशनी, תאורה...

[quote=Paul Frommer]Atan is a noun meaning “light” in the sense of “source of illumination.” It’s Jim Cameron’s word, actually. I don’t yet have a word for “light = not heavy”—“light” and “heavy” would be good ones to come up with.[/quote]

So there we go. One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.

Furia fìtxeleru atan soli ngenga, ngengaru irayo seruyi ayoeng, ma Pawl.

_____________________
[/quote]

Mengá fìlì'ur "atan si" a fì'uri mengáru iráyo seiyí oe. ;D (Slä peséng lu txúra pam, átan fu atán?)

-Keyl



msg=80157 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 10:43:55 | u=73

Re: Atan lucet in tenebris

Prrton

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3920.msg80098#msg80098 date=1265449919]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]

atan (n.) = illumination, lux, luz, luce,광선, 光, ljóssins, สุริย, światło, llum, Licht, ışık, světlo, golau, svetloba, रोशनी, תאורה...

[quote=Paul Frommer]Atan is a noun meaning “light” in the sense of “source of illumination.” It’s Jim Cameron’s word, actually. I don’t yet have a word for “light = not heavy”—“light” and “heavy” would be good ones to come up with.[/quote]

So there we go. One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.

Furia fìtxeleru atan soli ngenga, ngengaru irayo seruyi ayoeng, ma Pawl.

_____________________
[/quote]

Mengá fìlì'ur "atan si" a fì'uri mengáru iráyo seiyí oe. ;D (Slä peséng lu txúra pam, átan fu atán?)

-Keyl
[/quote]


Oer txóa, ma Tsmukán! Tìpáẃmìri ke 'ok sìrmí óe. Káẃnga éltu Pŕŕtonä!! Zéne óe täpivakúk nìmún nìmún. :-[  *Fehólpxay hŕŕä tayám? nìVohín? nìMŕŕvol?  :-\\ Tsay'ú pxan lu srak? Ke tsängún tslivám óe nìwótx! Snúmìna éltu Pŕŕtonä nìmún!  :'(


_____________________



msg=80567 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 15:52:13 | u=21

Re: Atan lucet in tenebris

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.[/quote]

Do we happen to know where the accent should go?



msg=80815 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 18:35:10 | u=73

Re: Atan lucet in tenebris

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3920.msg80567#msg80567 date=1265471533]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.[/quote]

Do we happen to know where the accent should go?

[/quote]

That's what tsmukan Keyl and I were just lamenting above.

[quote=Keyl]

Mengá fìlì'ur "atan si" a fì'uri mengáru iráyo seiyí oe. ;D (Slä peséng lu txúra pam, átan fu atán?)

-Keyl

[quote=Prrton]
Oer txóa, ma Tsmukán! Tìpáẃmìri ke 'ok sìrmí óe. Káẃnga éltu Pŕŕtonä!! Zéne óe täpivakúk nìmún nìmún. :-[  *Fehólpxay hŕŕä tayám? nìVohín? nìMŕŕvol?  :-\\ Tsay'ú pxan lu srak? Ke tsängún tslivám óe nìwótx! Snúmìna éltu Pŕŕtonä nìmún!  :'(
[/quote]
[/quote]

I'm going to be administering VOHIN to MRRVOL lashes to myself in penance for not asking (as soon as I can figure out how many that is).  ;) If/when/next time I hear from K. Pawl, I'll ask.

_____________________



msg=95240 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-13 23:48:34 | u=3863

Re: Atan lucet in tenebris

Mithcoriel

[Quote]Oer txóa, ma Tsmukán! Tìpáẃmìri ke 'ok sìrmí óe. Káẃnga éltu Pŕŕtonä!! Zéne óe täpivakúk nìmún nìmún.  *Fehólpxay hŕŕä tayám? nìVohín? nìMŕŕvol? Tsay'ú pxan lu srak? Ke tsängún tslivám óe nìwótx! Snúmìna éltu Pŕŕtonä nìmún![/quote]

Eh...tipawm: oel ketslam txan Na'vi (oel ke-tslimam nì'ul aylì'uti to oe tslimam) . Srä filì'u: "täpivakúk". Pe'u lu? Lu "takuk" srak? Oe tslam "-iv-", srä pe'u lu "-äp-" ?
Fya'o nga plltxe Na'viti...oe neu tse'a ne-mì ngayä elturu XD.

(Ulte rutxe pivlltxe nìwotx Na'vi-ayli'u a oel si nìtsleng, irayo ^^)



msg=95361 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-14 00:34:42 | u=2788

Re: Atan lucet in tenebris

Lance R. Casey

[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/the-reflexive-(from-a-frommer-email!!!!)/]Fìkìngit[/url] nìn. :)



msg=105347 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 09:06:48 | u=73

Re: Atan lucet in tenebris

Prrton

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80815#msg80815 date=1265481310]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3920.msg80567#msg80567 date=1265471533]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.[/quote]

Do we happen to know where the accent should go?

[/quote]

That's what tsmukan Keyl and I were just lamenting above.

[quote=Keyl]

Mengá fìlì'ur "atan si" a fì'uri mengáru iráyo seiyí oe. ;D (Slä peséng lu txúra pam, átan fu atán?)

-Keyl

[quote=Prrton]
Oer txóa, ma Tsmukán! Tìpáẃmìri ke 'ok sìrmí óe. Káẃnga éltu Pŕŕtonä!! Zéne óe täpivakúk nìmún nìmún. :-[  *Fehólpxay hŕŕä tayám? nìVohín? nìMŕŕvol?  :-\\ Tsay'ú pxan lu srak? Ke tsängún tslivám óe nìwótx! Snúmìna éltu Pŕŕtonä nìmún!  :'(
[/quote]
[/quote]

I'm going to be administering VOHIN to MRRVOL lashes to myself in penance for not asking (as soon as I can figure out how many that is).  ;) If/when/next time I hear from K. Pawl, I'll ask.

_____________________
[/quote]

[quote=Paul Frommer (in e-mail to Prrton 17 Feb.)]And atan is aTAN.[/quote]

So that means that the 2nd syllable is stressed.



_____________________



msg=88261 | topic=4177 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 10:59:08 | u=1

MOVED: the evidential??

Seabass

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=4173.0[/iurl]



msg=95180 | topic=4453 | board=99 | time=2010-02-13 23:06:18 | u=1120

participles

roger

'Nother tidbit:

[quote author=Frommer]
Keruseya tute vs. ke rey a tute (don't attach the ke or a, since rey is a finite verb) is parallel to "dead (= non-living) person" vs. "person who doesn't live OR isn't alive" in English. Semantically they seem pretty much the same [...].

Note the Avatar line (which I don't believe made it into the final version of the film):

Hetuwongìl awngeyä swotut ska'a, fte kllkivulat keruseya tskxet.

'The aliens destroy our sacred place to dig up dead rock.'
[/quote]

[quote author=Frommer]
Palulukan atusaron lu lehrrap. 'A hunting thanator is dangerous.'

Palulukan a teraron lu lehrrap. 'A thanator that's hunting is dangerous.'
[/quote]

There's our transitive verb. Pretty similar to sbrd in these verbs, but that may not be the case for modals etc.; I don't know.



msg=95409 | topic=4453 | board=99 | time=2010-02-14 00:49:54 | u=631

Re: participles

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Great! Thanks for the update on the confirmation :)



msg=95294 | topic=4457 | board=99 | time=2010-02-14 00:14:24 | u=1

MOVED: A "new word" game.

Seabass

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=9]Your Projects / Other Resources[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=4368.0[/iurl]



msg=100320 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 13:26:10 | u=21

Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

wm.annis

Here's the mail from Karyu Pawl.  Evidently, he's been having computer difficulties recently.  The underlining below is mine.

[quote="Karyu Pawl"]Thanks for combining your questions. Yes, that helps a lot. Excellent idea. The only downside is that if the questions below are typical, they're often hard and deep, and I may not the answers immediately. But questions on this level help immensely in getting me to see the places where the rules need further development or clarification, or where I left inadvertent gaps.

Anyway, let me answer a few of the questions now, and I'll do my best to get to the others without too much further delay. As always, thanks for your patience.

BTW, "Ma Karyu Pawl" is fine. :-)

BTW2, if I had the Na'vi word for 'elegant,' (it's on my list), I'd apply it to your sentence:

"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."

Aylì'u ngeyä lor lu nìngay.

P.


[quote]1. Is this correct: po kä a tseng(ne) ke tsìme'a oel I didn't see
where s/he was going.[/quote]

No, it's not. But it raises in interesting question.

The error is in the case of "tseng(e)."  The structure has to be, "I didn't see the place that s/he was going (to)," so we're essentially dealing with a relative clause. "Place" is in the matrix sentence, so it should be marked as an object. Changing the word order for clarity (which doesn't really affect anything) . . .

Oel tsìme'a tsenget/tsengit [depending on whether you like tseng or tsenge for 'place'] a . . .

But what's the RC? The place THAT S/HE WAS GOING or the place THAT S/HE WAS GOING TO?

If it's the former, we simply have: a po karmä (I like indicating the tense and aspect here, although it's not obligatory.)

If it's the latter, then since we can't strand an adposition in Na'vi the way we can in English, the structure is similar to "the place that s/he was going to it."

For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.

So the two possible versions of the sentence you want are:

(1) Po karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel.

(2) Po tsane karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel.

(2) is unimpeachable, I think. But I'd accept (1) as well. It's a bit loose but it seems like a natural development, and it has the virtue of brevity.



[quote]4. Are multiple vocatives clustered (ma smukan sì smuke) or not (ma smukan sì ma smuke)?[/quote]

Clustered. "Ma smukan sì smuke."



[quote]5. Does the vocative always come before the noun and all modifiers
including adjectives and genitives, or is it just before the head
noun?  Is it always a particle or can it ever be used as a
suffix/enclitic?[/quote]

It's before the noun and all modifiers, not necessarily immediately before the head:

ma oeyä eylan: 'O my friends'

It's always before the NP, never a suffix/enclitic.


[quote]7. In toruk makto it seems like it should be maktoyu.  Aside from
"James Cameron Said So" is there a reason it is not?[/quote]

So you guys noticed that, huh? :-)

JC and I had a bit of a discussion about "Toruk makto." I pointed out that according to the grammar, it should be maktoyu. And I was told in no uncertain terms that it was going to be "toruk makto," and I should figure out a way to make it work. The man certainly has the right . . .

So it's an exception--one of the iconic phrases in the language that developed unusually, for whatever reasons, and don't follow the normal rules. If we looked hard enough we could probably find parallels in English and in all other languages.



[quote]1. Regarding adpositions.  When they follow, they are written attached
to the word.  Can we assume this means they are enclitic, and have no
stress accent of their own?  Is the accent obliterated in two syllable
adpostions, as in eyktanmungwrr?[/quote]

Yes, they're enclitic, without their own stress. EYKtanmungwrr is stressed on the first syllable--a bit awkward, perhaps, but not too bad.


[quote]9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt
with when the attributive is used?  Do other vowels need any special
treatment with the attributive?[/quote]

In such cases the attributive "a" is swallowed up and disappears:

skxawng apxa, apxa skxawng

I can't think of any other cases where this happens, although aä and äa seem like rather unstable sequences. Until further notice, though, I think we'll allow them.

============

That's it for now. More soon, I hope . . .[/quote]



msg=100344 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 13:48:30 | u=310

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Aeroflyte

[desc=Not to sound creepy or anything...]I love this guy.[/desc] I really do. Though I'll probably never get to actually speak with/email him, he's great and it's awesome how interested he seems to be in helping us all.



msg=100443 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 15:09:58 | u=3552

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

tigermind

Huzzah!  Those are some important questions answered.  I'm particularly happy to have an inanimate "it"--now i have translations to fix!

All hail Karyu Pawl =D



msg=100469 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 15:22:27 | u=1620

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

dontbugme

sìltsana fmawn  :D

'Ivong Na'vi



msg=100473 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 15:23:49 | u=1244

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Eight

Yay, I got an answer to a question I think I asked...

Which means more work for me (modifying software) but hey... :)

Edit: Forgot to say "Love ya Paul". :D



msg=100546 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 16:17:01 | u=1485

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Erimeyz

I heart K. Pawl!



msg=100570 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 16:39:44 | u=195

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

esoanem

Huzzah, now I just need to wait for him to reply to my email.  :D



msg=100623 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 17:17:43 | u=631

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Great! Thanks for letting us know.
[desc=I'll spread the word..]Oel vìyirä lì'ut[/desc]... ;)




msg=100707 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:04:14 | u=985

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Nyx

Awesome ;D



msg=100711 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:07:23 | u=430

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

TehMightyPirate

Could a linguist perhaps explain the first answer he gives for us non-linguists?

Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?



msg=100728 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:22:46 | u=985

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Nyx

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?
[/quote]

Wait, are you saying you have an alternative mode of transport?  :o

But yeah, we could just see it as some kind of laziness or ancient form.. and all languages have some weird exceptions, so I guess it's ok :)



msg=100733 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:25:11 | u=430

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=4705.msg100728#msg100728 date=1266344566]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?
[/quote]

Wait, are you saying you have an alternative mode of transport?  :o

But yeah, we could just see it as some kind of laziness or ancient form.. and all languages have some weird exceptions, so I guess it's ok :)
[/quote]

A little off topic but I am glad that Na'vi has a few, select, exceptions for things, it makes it seem "more real" if you know what I mean.



msg=100778 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:51:21 | u=2788

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Lance R. Casey

[quote="Karyu Pawl"]For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.
[/quote]

Txantsan! :)

So, how about some extrapolation:

tsa it
mesa those two
pxesa those three
(ay)sa they

tseyä its
meseyä of those two
pxeseyä of those three
(ay)seyä their



msg=100794 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:55:58 | u=430

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=4705.msg100778#msg100778 date=1266346281]
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.
[/quote]

Txantsan! :)

So, how about some extrapolation:

tsa it
mesa those two
pxesa those three
(ay)sa they

tseyä its
meseyä of those two
pxeseyä of those three
(ay)seyä their
[/quote]

Seems prudent to assume that this would work in such a way.



msg=100855 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 19:31:59 | u=1620

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

dontbugme

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?
[/quote]

i think the difference is not That big anyway. i remember the "o" at the end being pronounced once a bit "ou" like in the movie. i personally could imagine that it envolved by being told in stories, maybe just because it sounds more distinctive and unique.



msg=100860 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 19:34:02 | u=430

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

TehMightyPirate

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=4705.msg100855#msg100855 date=1266348719]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?
[/quote]

i think the difference is not That big anyway. i remember the "o" at the end being pronounced once a bit "ou" like in the movie. i personally could imagine that it envolved by being told in stories, maybe just because it sounds more distinctive and unique.
[/quote]

Yeah, Mo'at has a definite "ou" when she says it.

Anyway, back on topic.



msg=101169 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 21:24:43 | u=1434

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Kazgard

A delicious update. I'm thrilled that we can enjoy this level of direct support from Pawl.



msg=101325 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 22:31:44 | u=2104

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Mirri

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg100443#msg100443 date=1266332998]
Huzzah!  Those are some important questions answered.  I'm particularly happy to have an inanimate "it"--now i have translations to fix!

All hail Karyu Pawl =D
[/quote]

Damn, I've been using 'u for that everywhere. It seemed much more simple and obvious to me :P



msg=101382 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 23:04:51 | u=1485

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Erimeyz

Mirri: consider tute person -> po he/she :: 'u thing -> tsa it.  Yes?  Of course, 'u thing is derived, not attested.  And tsa was attested as that but is now also attested as it.  It's interesting that the one word covers both concepts.

And, of course, we have fipo, lapo, frapo, etc making compounds with po he/she instead of tute person... but we have fi'u, fra'u, ke'u etc making compounds with 'u thing instead of tsa it.  Hm.

And we have tsa'u that thing.  But we don't yet have tsapo that person, and maybe because there's an animacy contrast between tsa / po we won't ever get it?

We also have fipo that one (person or thing), attested in the ASG.  So does K. Pawl's latest gift mean that fipo is really this one (person)?

Hm.

 - Eri



msg=101474 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 00:28:03 | u=21

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

wm.annis

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4705.msg101382#msg101382 date=1266361491]And tsa was attested as that but is now also attested as it.  It's interesting that the one word covers both concepts.[/quote]

This is ubiquitous.  Our own "he" and "she" started off life as demonstratives.



msg=101495 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 00:42:32 | u=21

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

wm.annis

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]Could a linguist perhaps explain the first answer he gives for us non-linguists?[/quote]

That was my question, and I tried to pack too much into it.  First, the wh-words in English have three distinct functions —



Because krr in the a krr relative construction is adverbial, I was wondering if tsenge is, too.  But, by picking my example sentence, I asked a question about indirect questions instead of the relative.  D'oh!

The other issue has to do with "-ere" adverbs: where, here, there.  The thing about location is that you can either be there already, be moving there or be moving away from there.  In old fashioned English, we have "here, there, where" (stationary), "hither, thither, whither" (movement to) and "hence, thence, whence" (movement from).  I was trying to figure out what the Na'vi for "whither" would be.  Turns out to involve the noun for place, with a place-holder pronoun to get the adposition indicating motion toward (ne).



msg=101509 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:06:32 | u=3552

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4705.msg101474#msg101474 date=1266366483]
This is ubiquitous.  Our own "he" and "she" started off life as demonstratives.
[/quote]

What do you mean, ma 'eylan?



msg=101525 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:21:19 | u=21

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

wm.annis

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg101509#msg101509 date=1266368792]What do you mean, ma 'eylan?[/quote]

Just that Modern English "he" and "she" are descendants of words that in Old English and earlier were closer to "this, that."



msg=101531 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:22:41 | u=3552

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

tigermind

"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."

Aylì'u ngeyä lor lu nìngay.


Could somebody help translate this for me, rutxe?  I'm having trouble understanding.  Here's what i have:

Nga-eyä teri           fay+txele      a       ay-sänume-ri        nga-r(u) irayo s<ei>(y)i ay-oe             nìwotx
You-GEN concerning these+subject SBRD PL+teachings-TOP you-DAT thank<LAUD>   we(EXCL).NTR much
"We thank you very much for your teachings concerning these subjects"?

And then that second part, what is "lor"?  I understand the rest.

Irayo, ma smukan, ulte Eywa ayngahu.



msg=101533 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:24:06 | u=3552

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4705.msg101525#msg101525 date=1266369679]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg101509#msg101509 date=1266368792]What do you mean, ma 'eylan?[/quote]

Just that Modern English "he" and "she" are descendants of words that in Old English and earlier were closer to "this, that."
[/quote]

Huh, learn something new everyday.  Now, is that because English used to be a gendered language, like French and Italian (and numerous other languages, i'm sure), or is that unrelated?



msg=101554 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:47:35 | u=21

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

wm.annis

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg101531#msg101531 date=1266369761]
"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."

"We thank you very much for your teachings concerning these subjects"?
[/quote]

Almost.  The ayoe nìwotx means "all of us."

[quote]And then that second part, what is "lor"?[/quote]

"Beautiful," used of things, not people.

[quote]Now, is that because English used to be a gendered language, like French and Italian (and numerous other languages, i'm sure), or is that unrelated?[/quote]

More like German — three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter) — but basically yes.



msg=102184 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 14:13:46 | u=2211

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Txaklan

This is great!



msg=102428 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 16:50:41 | u=3552

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4705.msg101554#msg101554 date=1266371255]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg101531#msg101531 date=1266369761]
"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."

"We thank you very much for your teachings concerning these subjects"?
[/quote]

Almost.  The ayoe nìwotx means "all of us."

[quote]And then that second part, what is "lor"?[/quote]

"Beautiful," used of things, not people.

[quote]Now, is that because English used to be a gendered language, like French and Italian (and numerous other languages, i'm sure), or is that unrelated?[/quote]

More like German — three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter) — but basically yes.
[/quote]

Ngar irayo seiyi oe, ma tsmukan.  I appreciate your help; and that tidbit about English's past is interesting.  Eywa ngahu.



msg=105154 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 03:38:10 | u=282

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Java

[quote]9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt
with when the attributive is used?  Do other vowels need any special
treatment with the attributive?

In such cases the attributive "a" is swallowed up and disappears:

skxawng apxa, apxa skxawng

I can't think of any other cases where this happens, although aä and äa seem like rather unstable sequences. Until further notice, though, I think we'll allow them.
[/quote]

I woke up this morning thinking about that exact question. Kinda strange but convenient at the same time  :)



msg=105173 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 04:09:39 | u=1627

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Kawazoe

[quote author=Java link=topic=4705.msg105154#msg105154 date=1266550690]
[quote]9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt
with when the attributive is used?  Do other vowels need any special
treatment with the attributive?

In such cases the attributive "a" is swallowed up and disappears:

skxawng apxa, apxa skxawng

I can't think of any other cases where this happens, although aä and äa seem like rather unstable sequences. Until further notice, though, I think we'll allow them.
[/quote]

I woke up this morning thinking about that exact question. Kinda strange but convenient at the same time  :)
[/quote]

I asked it in the TeamSpeak server yesterday o.O



msg=105337 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 08:48:49 | u=73

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=4705.msg100623#msg100623 date=1266340663]
[font=Garamond]Great! Thanks for letting us know.
[desc=I'll spread the word..]Oel vìyirä lì'ut[/desc]... ;)


[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that « virä » is intransitive, so I'd suggest we might consider saying this using our handy new "causitive infix", which is « -eyk- » (pre-first).

TAFRAL:

« Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » or maybe a bit less idiomatically (from an 'Ìnglìsì perspective) >>>

    « [desc=(Lit: I will cause this news to spread >>> "I will spread this news.")]Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä fìfmawnit[/desc] »

From many things I have heard/seen from K. Pawl lately, he wants everyone to try to avoid using *non-Na'vi* idiomatic expressions for things that are not directly relevant to our human world. There is nothing wrong with « Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » and there is a special kind of "direct translation" humor in it that « [desc=makes one laugh]fkot h-eyk-angham[/desc] », but whenever we're doing this, we should do it *intentionally* for humorous or ironic effect, and not just because that's the idiomatic pattern we use in our language or languages. I don't mean this in a lecturing or disrespectful way at all, I'd just like to explicitly point it out so that we'll ALL ALWAYS think about it.  ;) My comment here is addressed to "all of us" (myself included).



msg=105351 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 09:10:48 | u=195

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

esoanem

[desc=Prrton, shouldn't you have said "oe-l v<eyk>irä fìfmawn-ur"? I thought that when you used <eyk> you had to use the dative.]Ma prrton, z<iv>ene nga p<ilv>lltxe san oe-l v<eyk>irä fìfmawn-ur sìk srak? Oe fp<ìlm>ìl (that sounds funny) tsnì san <eyk> sìk fko-hu tìkangkem si a krr nga zene nì-tìng-tu tìkangkem s<eyk>i.[/desc]



msg=105357 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 09:21:42 | u=631

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4705.msg105337#msg105337 date=1266569329]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=4705.msg100623#msg100623 date=1266340663]
[font=Garamond]Great! Thanks for letting us know.
[desc=I'll spread the word..]Oel vìyirä lì'ut[/desc]... ;)


[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that « virä » is intransitive, so I'd suggest we might consider saying this using our handy new "causitive infix", which is « -eyk- » (pre-first).

TAFRAL:

« Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » or maybe a bit less idiomatically (from an 'Ìnglìsì perspective) >>>

     « [desc=(Lit: I will cause this news to spread >>> "I will spread this news.")]Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä fìfmawnit[/desc] »

From many things I have heard/seen from K. Pawl lately, he wants everyone to try to avoid using *non-Na'vi* idiomatic expressions for things that are not directly relevant to our human world. There is nothing wrong with « Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » and there is a special kind of "direct translation" humor in it that « [desc=makes one laugh]fkot h-eyk-angham[/desc] », but whenever we're doing this, we should do it *intentionally* for humorous or ironic effect, and not just because that's the idiomatic pattern we use in our language or languages. I don't mean this in a lecturing or disrespectful way at all, I'd just like to explicitly point it out so that we'll ALL ALWAYS think about it.  ;) My comment here is addressed to "all of us" (myself included).[/quote]

[font=Garamond]That's an instance where I just wrote before thinking about it ... now that you mention it: YES, it is very idiomatic and I shouldn't have used it. I totally agree about non-Na'vi idiomatics ... whatever that entails ... but that's something for another thread and another discussion, I presume ;)
Thanks for pointing that out!
No hard feelings from my side :)



msg=105453 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:18:32 | u=1485

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Erimeyz

Prrton's point is well-spoken.  It's been made before, and no doubt will be made many times again.  [desc=Life is this way >> "That's life."]Tìray lu fìfya.[/desc]

It suggests a question for the "Combined Questions" thread, which I'll go post there now: What are some Na'vi idioms?  And I don't mean Na'vi translations of English idioms; those would be nice to have also but we can figure them out for ourselves.  I mean native idioms, and the more the merrier.  Why?  Because learning them can help us think in Na'vi.

  - Eri



msg=105455 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:20:13 | u=21

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

wm.annis

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=4705.msg105351#msg105351 date=1266570648]I thought that when you used <eyk> you had to use the dative.[/quote]

One uses the dative for the original subject of a transitive verb that has been made causative.  When an intransitive verb is promoted to transitive with ‹eyk› the object is in the accusative.



msg=105473 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:56:04 | u=1485

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

Erimeyz

This last point is a bit confusing, and worth going through slowly (since it's covered in two different emails from Pawl):

Intransitive:
Po holahaw He slept
Oel heykolahaw poti I caused-to-sleep him

Transitive:
Pol tolaron ayfoti He hunted them
Oel teykolaron ayfoti poru I caused-to-hunt them him

It's a little weird to my way of thinking, honestly.  You'd think that using the causative infix would have the same effect on both the intransitive's subject and the transitive's agent, i.e. they would both become the patient of the causative and thus both take the accusative.  After all, they're the ones that the causative force is being applied to (they're the ones being caused to do something).  But NO!  That's not what happens!  The intransitive's subject becomes the causative's patient, but the transitive's agent becomes the causative's indirect object, and the transitive's patient remains the causative's patient.

Weird.  But totally in keeping with the idea of a tripartite system.  The intransitive's subject IS NOT LIKE the transitive's agent.  There's no reason for them to behave similarly when causativified.

  - Eri



msg=105545 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 13:35:30 | u=1837

Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)

hi

[quote author=Eight link=topic=4705.msg100473#msg100473 date=1266333829]
Yay, I got an answer to a question I think I asked...

Which means more work for me (modifying software) but hey... :)

Edit: Forgot to say "Love ya Paul". :D
[/quote] 8)



msg=102045 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 11:56:58 | u=595

The causative infix

lightning

I've just noticed that the Wikibook lists the long anticipated causative infix [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Verbs#Pre-first_position:_Valency]among the pre-first position ones[/url] as <eyk>, including usage examples and also [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Syntax#Transitivity]a paragraph on its usage[/url] in the Syntax section.

Anyone knows where is it sourced or has more info on that?



msg=102460 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:02:59 | u=3552

Re: The causative infix

tigermind

[quote author=Tawtakuk link=topic=4785.msg102045#msg102045 date=1266407818]
I've just noticed that the Wikibook lists the long anticipated causative infix [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Verbs#Pre-first_position:_Valency]among the pre-first position ones[/url] as <eyk>, including usage examples and also [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Syntax#Transitivity]a paragraph on its usage[/url] in the Syntax section.

Anyone knows where is it sourced or has more info on that?
[/quote]

Wow, if this info is right (and i'm assuming it is), this...complicates things.  Whoever's maintaing the Na'vi dictionary will want to update the verb entries with transitive/intransitive info so we know when we'll need to use this infix.  Fun stuff.



msg=102476 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:08:28 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4785.msg102460#msg102460 date=1266426179]Wow, if this info is right (and i'm assuming it is), this...complicates things.  Whoever's maintaing the Na'vi dictionary will want to update the verb entries with transitive/intransitive info so we know when we'll need to use this infix.  Fun stuff.[/quote]

The problem right now is that only Frommer knows the transitivity of a lot of verbs.  He's been asked about these matters before.  We may have to wait on his official dictionary (Fox! get moving on this!) before we'll have a good handle on a bunch of words.

I'm personally more curious to see what happens when a transitive verb is given the causative infix.  What happns to the cases?

Oel taron yerikit I hunt yerik.

If this turns into a causative, t‹eyk›aron, what case does the original object go in and what case does the original subject turn into.  Given Frommer's love of the dative case, I currently suspsect it's dative for the original subject —

*Eyktanìl oeru t‹eyk›eraron yerikit The leader has me hunting yerik,

but this is a big guess, of course.



msg=103040 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 21:42:02 | u=417

Re: The causative infix

Alìm Tsamsiyu

There are some things on the Wiki that seem a little bit contrary to what we know from Frommer's examples....

One thing in particular that I notice:

[quote author=Wiki] Oe tsun pivey trrit a nga tayìng ayoer(u) nì'ul.
"I can await the day when you will give us more."[/quote]

Since when can 'a' by itself translate to "when"? I suppose the trr+a combination might invoke this meaning like krr+a does, but with the accusative marker attached, I have my doubts.

Thus far, I have yet to fully trust anything the Wiki says (despite Frommer's indirect blessing) and have gleaned all my current knowledge from discussions on the forum, available resource documents (.PDFs), and posted correspondences with Dr. Frommer.

In short - I don't trust it.



msg=103055 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 21:48:07 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=4785.msg103040#msg103040 date=1266442922][quote]Oe tsun pivey trrit a nga tayìng ayoer(u) nì'ul.
"I can await the day when you will give us more."[/quote]

Since when can 'a' by itself translate to "when"? I suppose the trr+a combination might invoke this meaning like krr+a does, but with the accusative marker attached, I have my doubts.[/quote]

Do not be misled by the translation here.  Of course a does not mean "when," but because the antecedent is "day" the relative "when" makes a somewhat more idiomatic English translation than "which, that."

This sentence is from the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Verb_Phrases_as_Objects]Canon[/url], vetted by Frommer himself.  There is no reason to distrust it.



msg=103060 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 21:53:18 | u=417

Re: The causative infix

Alìm Tsamsiyu

Hmm. I see - I was thinking about that shortly before you posted this, thinking that could be what was happening.

Still, I don't like the wide open nature of Wikipedia... Call me old fashioned, I guess :P



msg=104186 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 17:49:36 | u=195

Re: The causative infix

esoanem

If this behaves in the way it seems (and is actually the causative infix) then I think the original subject -> indirect (dative) object is good.

Personally though, I don't want this to be right. Given it's similarity to the verb [desc=leads]eyk [/desc]which would make sense in this context so I'd quite like eyk to be a modal verb creating causative forms.




msg=104204 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 18:00:00 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=4785.msg104186#msg104186 date=1266515376]Personally though, I don't want this to be right. [/quote]

It is.  So, astonishingly, is my dative guess.  I hope to be able to officially update the Canon soon.



msg=104260 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 18:39:43 | u=54

Re: The causative infix

Tiger

Hmmm, speaking of the similiarity to lead...

[desc=Our leader's death caused me to lead.]Awngeyä eyktanä tìterkupìl oet eykeyk.[/desc]



msg=104271 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 18:45:38 | u=1485

Re: The causative infix

Erimeyz

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4785.msg104204#msg104204 date=1266516000]
It is.  So, astonishingly, is my dative guess.  I hope to be able to officially update the Canon soon.
[/quote]

... I'm guessing that means that you're going by something other the Wikibooks assertion.

  - Eri



msg=104285 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 18:56:32 | u=1485

Re: The causative infix

Erimeyz

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=4785.msg103060#msg103060 date=1266443598]
Still, I don't like the wide open nature of Wikipedia...
[/quote]

First, it's now Wikibooks, not Wikipedia.  All the content that used to be on Wikipedia moved to Wikibooks about two weeks ago.

Second, it's not the wide-open nature that should hinder your trust.  The forum is no less wide-open - anyone can post anything.

Third, your trust should be based on the degree to which material you encounter (whether on Wikipedia, Wikibooks, the forum, or your own email inbox) is supported by references to reliable sources.  The author behind most of the Wikibooks content (and the Wikipedia content before it) is very good at conducting analysis but is stunningly poor at providing references or explaining his analysis.  I generally assume anything he's written is correct, but I'm never comfortable until I see others making the same conclusions from corpus analysis, or until I see the emails from Frommer that he's relying on being posted.

  - Eri



msg=104807 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 22:48:55 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4785.msg104271#msg104271 date=1266518738]... I'm guessing that means that you're going by something other the Wikibooks assertion.[/quote]

Yes.  I just need to clear up some attributions.



msg=104932 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 00:31:07 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

Voilà — [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#More_extracts_from_various_emails]Extracts[/url] (added by roger), Feb 17 for the causative issue.



msg=105111 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 03:01:36 | u=1485

Re: The causative infix

Erimeyz

Outstanding!  Another big drop of email from roger, another treasure trove of Na'vi Na'ledge!  Thanks for sharing, gents.

If you're just tuning in to the thread, you should definitely check out the wiki link above.

  - Eri



msg=105143 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 03:27:32 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4785.msg104260#msg104260 date=1266518383]
Hmmm, speaking of the similiarity to lead...

[desc=Our leader's death caused me to lead.]Awngeyä eyktanä tìterkupìl oet eykeyk.[/desc]
[/quote]

The "caused subject" of a transitive verb is in the dative, so it would be oeru in place of oet.  Whatever the original object is (like "the people" or "the war party") stays in the accusative.



msg=105263 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 06:04:59 | u=54

Re: The causative infix

Tiger

Srane, oel tse'a tsat set.



msg=105480 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:59:13 | u=1485

Re: The causative infix

Erimeyz

I posted this in a different thread, but it belongs here:

The causative works differently for transitive and intransitive verbs.  This point is a bit confusing, and worth going through slowly (since it's covered in two different emails from Pawl):

Intransitive:
Po holahaw He slept
Oel heykolahaw poti I caused-to-sleep him

Transitive:
Pol tolaron ayfoti He hunted them
Oel teykolaron ayfoti poru I caused-to-hunt them him

It's a little weird to my way of thinking, honestly.  You'd think that using the causative infix would have the same effect on both the intransitive's subject and the transitive's agent, i.e. they would both become the patient of the causative and thus both take the accusative.  After all, they're the ones that the causative force is being applied to (they're the ones being caused to do something).  But NO!  That's not what happens!  The intransitive's subject becomes the causative's patient, but the transitive's agent becomes the causative's indirect object, and the transitive's patient remains the causative's patient.

Weird.  But totally in keeping with the idea of a tripartite system.  The intransitive's subject IS NOT LIKE the transitive's agent.  There's no reason for them to behave similarly when causativified.

 - Eri



msg=105557 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 13:46:13 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4785.msg105480#msg105480 date=1266584353]I posted this in a different thread, but it belongs here:It's a little weird to my way of thinking, honestly.  You'd think that using the causative infix would have the same effect on both the intransitive's subject and the transitive's agent, i.e. they would both become the patient of the causative and thus both take the accusative. [/quote]

It does seem odd at first, but imagine a transitive verb is made causative.  If you shift the causee to the accusative, what happens to the original direct object?  Some languages object powerfully to having more than one direct object in a clause.

I was able to guess this dative construction with the Wondrous Powers of Linguistic Typology.  Most human languages fiddle with the case of the causee, rather than shift the original object around.  Shifting the causee to the dative (or the language equivalent, like Japanese relational ni) is most common, with an instrumental (case or adposition) coming in second.  For example, if we made a causative of a verb that already takes a dative (like tìng), it's possible Frommer's fa construction might be the only option for the causee.

Edit: after a quick bit of research — a double dative is more widely acceptable than a double accusative, so maybe fa wouldn't be required for the t‹eyk›ìng.



msg=106035 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 19:55:08 | u=54

Re: The causative infix

Tiger

The one I'm wondering about is....  What about verbs like slu, lu or tok?  What happens to the subjects of being, becoming or being at?  I don't know enough linguistics to even predict that.



msg=106220 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:27:47 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4785.msg106035#msg106035 date=1266609308]The one I'm wondering about is....  What about verbs like slu, lu or tok?  What happens to the subjects of being, becoming or being at?  I don't know enough linguistics to even predict that.[/quote]

Oh, my.

Tok is just a plain old intransitive verb related to location, like and za'u.  I go to some place, I come from some place, I am at some place.  There are no phrase constituents with tok that need to be adjusted — it's all adverbs and adpositional phrases of place.

  Oe tamok mì na'ring I was in the forest.
  Pol teykamok oeti mì na'ring She caused me to be in the forest.

Lu is a bit of a mess because it has rather distinct jobs to do.  In the sense of existence (lu sute there are people) a causative makes a certain sort of sense.

  Lu wutso There is a meal.
  Ngal leyku wutsot You cause there to be a meal.

This seems a bit grandiose, but in some languages the causative can be used as a sort of politeness distancing.  Important people, of course, do not actually do things — heavens, no! — but say a few words and make things happen.  No idea if this would apply to Na'vi.

The copular sense of lu (A = B) raises more serious troubles, both grammatical and semantic.  How often will it make sense to say, "someone caused me to be a human."  This seems odd.  From the grammar standpoint, you'd have to deal with translating not one, but two, nominatives.

Finally, lu is used for adjective predication.  Since adjectives aren't marked for case anyway, perhaps *oe tsat leyku apxa could make sense — but it sure seems odd to me.  If ever there's a time I'd want verbal morphology to go into an adjective, this is it.

Slu shares the same problems as the copula and adjectival predicate forms of lu.  Perhaps some periphrasis will come to the rescue.



msg=106276 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 22:04:11 | u=54

Re: The causative infix

Tiger

I had a feeling that would be the case in the copulative lu...  I couldn't think of an example that actually made sense.  Even for other uses, the best I could come up with is "cause to have" - but that is conceptually the same as other verbs such as give.

But I was hoping you would have some brilliant answer for slu drawing on some obscure dead language construct, because that seems more useful to be used causatively.  I guess we need to wait for Nawma Karyu to give us more information.



msg=107217 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 16:26:14 | u=2873

Re: The causative infix

Skyinou

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4785.msg106220#msg106220 date=1266614867]
 Oe tamok mì na'ring I was in the forest.
 Pol teykamok oeti mì na'ring She caused me to be in the forest.
[/quote]

I can't understand why it is "oeti" and not "oeru". "oeti" sound so word-to-word translated from english  :-\\
It should be dative, because it's caused to you to do the action. She doesn't "caused you", and she doesn't "hunt you" either. It is then not an Accusative for any of the two way of seeing it.
(I hope I'm clear enough, I'm not sure of my english to explain such a difficult matter.)



msg=107272 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:27:35 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4785.msg107217#msg107217 date=1266683174]It should be dative, because it's caused to you to do the action. [/quote]

Not here.  When an intransitive verb becomes causative, the causee is in the accusative.  When a transitive verb becomes causative, the causee is in the dative.

For example, sngä'i begin is intransitive.  When it takes the causative it becomes transitive with the causee in the accusative, Oel sngeykolä'i tìkangkemit "I began the work" (a Frommerian example).



msg=107312 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:58:18 | u=2873

Re: The causative infix

Skyinou

Thanks ma wm.annis,
I don't doubt that your sources are good, but that doesn't explain it. For now I'll stay with: "Frommer said so, so it is"
And "sngä'i" being intransitive... well, the same, ok, if you say so  ;D
I don't like "because it is so" rules, but of course there should be some to have a complete language.
oe taron / oel taron yerìkit
ngal teykaron oeti / ngal teykaron oeru yerìkit


And, what about "I made him speak to you"? ;D
"oel peyklltxe poru nga??"?
Irayo



msg=107358 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 18:38:02 | u=664

Re: The causative infix

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4785.msg107312#msg107312 date=1266688698]
Thanks ma wm.annis,
I don't doubt that your sources are good, but that doesn't explain it. For now I'll stay with: "Frommer said so, so it is"
And "sngä'i" being intransitive... well, the same, ok, if you say so  ;D
I don't like "because it is so" rules, but of course there should be some to have a complete language.
oe taron / oel taron yerìkit
ngal teykaron oeti / ngal teykaron oeru yerìkit


And, what about "I made him speak to you"? ;D
"oel peyklltxe poru nga??"?
Irayo
[/quote]

"Speak with you" (ngahu) would probably solve the problem in this case, but you bring up an interesting point. 

How about "I made him give that to you"?  We have seen two datives in the same sentence before though (lu oeru aylì'u frapor), so there must be some positioning rules or things would just have to make sense when in context.  Oel tsat teykìng poru ngar? or maybe we make things more clear with something in the topic, but every time I try things just seem to get more confusing.

As for some words being transitive/intransitive while others being only one or the other, I think all languages have things that you just need to memorize with no real patterns.  Na'vi seems pretty tame in that regard especially when compared to English.

-Keyl



msg=109895 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 15:03:58 | u=417

Re: The causative infix

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4785.msg104285#msg104285 date=1266519392]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=4785.msg103060#msg103060 date=1266443598]
Still, I don't like the wide open nature of Wikipedia...
[/quote]

First, it's now Wikibooks, not Wikipedia.  All the content that used to be on Wikipedia moved to Wikibooks about two weeks ago.

Second, it's not the wide-open nature that should hinder your trust.  The forum is no less wide-open - anyone can post anything.

Third, your trust should be based on the degree to which material you encounter (whether on Wikipedia, Wikibooks, the forum, or your own email inbox) is supported by references to reliable sources.  The author behind most of the Wikibooks content (and the Wikipedia content before it) is very good at conducting analysis but is stunningly poor at providing references or explaining his analysis.  I generally assume anything he's written is correct, but I'm never comfortable until I see others making the same conclusions from corpus analysis, or until I see the emails from Frommer that he's relying on being posted.

  - Eri

[/quote]

Sran... it's point #3 there that I dislike the most.  I like sources.

Point #2 is a bit less applicable as, here, any posted information is subject to immediate review and correction, whereas in any Wiki (be it books/pedia) the person who posted the change may remain anonymous, and I somewhat doubt there are as many eyes watching the edits page as there are watching the forums here.  Errors there seem much more likely to go unnoticed (at least, for a longer time than here).

-------

Anyway, on topic.

One thing I'm wondering is if this causative infix is going to crop up a lot in somewhat common speech... also leads me to wonder if there were some places in the movie where the causative infix should have been used but was skipped probably because the concept wasn't fully developed yet.  Can't think of anything particularly off the top of my head, but I figured 2+ heads are better than one, and maybe someone else can think of one.  Just some food for thought.



msg=110156 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 17:40:45 | u=4865

Re: The causative infix

ilovenicknames

i really want to learn na'vi...but it's kinda pretty hard..
because on this website are no sentences or so



msg=110159 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 17:42:42 | u=21

Re: The causative infix

wm.annis

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=4785.msg109895#msg109895 date=1266851038]One thing I'm wondering is if this causative infix is going to crop up a lot in somewhat common speech... also leads me to wonder if there were some places in the movie where the causative infix should have been used but was skipped probably because the concept wasn't fully developed yet.  [/quote]

The causative is never required.  Now, it's a convenient thing for a constructed language to have, because it lets you derive vocabulary from existing words, and reduces your word creation requirements, but a language isn't obligated to create words that way.  So you might have a completely separate word where you'd think a causative of another word would work.  We have one example I can think of right away in Na'vi, rikx (move, intransitive) and rìp (move, transitive).  I'll ask Frommer if reykikx has any use eventually.  ;)



msg=110867 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 23:53:25 | u=1120

Re: The causative infix

roger

There's also 'die' and 'kill'. Lots of languages have suppletive sets: person and people in English, for example.



msg=112328 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 21:24:45 | u=631

Re: The causative infix

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Hmm, I encountered a little translation problem and hope somebody can help me. It's the use of the <eyk> together with a modal verb.

So, if I wanted to say: "You can change the text"
latem would have to get the <eyk> infix because in this context it's transitive.
What happens with the other components? I'm still confused about which takes the ergative, accusative and (if required) dative markers...
Am I assuming that
Ngal tsun l<eyk><iv>atem *the text*-it would be correct?

Thanks for any help. :)



msg=112366 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 21:35:39 | u=2788

Re: The causative infix

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=4785.msg112328#msg112328 date=1266960285]
[font=Garamond]Hmm, I encountered a little translation problem and hope somebody can help me. It's the use of the <eyk> together with a modal verb.

So, if I wanted to say: "You can change the text"
latem would have to get the <eyk> infix because in this context it's transitive.
What happens with the other components? I'm still confused about which takes the ergative, accusative and (if required) dative markers...
Am I assuming that
Ngal tsun l<eyk><iv>atem *the text*-it would be correct?

Thanks for any help. :)

[/quote]

If the original verb (latem) is intransitive, the original subject ("the text") becomes the direct object. Dative comes into play when you start with a transitive verb.
Tsun is also intransitive, and the subject of the secondary verb is understood to be the same (regardless of transitivity):

Nga tsun leykivatem "the text"(i)t



msg=112456 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 22:07:45 | u=664

Re: The causative infix

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=4785.msg112328#msg112328 date=1266960285]
[font=Garamond]Hmm, I encountered a little translation problem and hope somebody can help me. It's the use of the <eyk> together with a modal verb.

So, if I wanted to say: "You can change the text"
latem would have to get the <eyk> infix because in this context it's transitive.
What happens with the other components? I'm still confused about which takes the ergative, accusative and (if required) dative markers...
Am I assuming that
Ngal tsun l<eyk><iv>atem *the text*-it would be correct?

Thanks for any help. :)

[/quote]

"The text" should be in ACC, nga does not need the ERG as tsun is intransitive while the sub. clause's ngal can be left out, I believe.

I think there are basically two ways of using -eyk- and they seem to follow the same formula:

1. Intransitive verbs, like latem and sngä'i, become transitive with the causative infix, i.e. Oel sneykä'a tìkangkemit "I begin the work."  The thing being affected takes the ACC, the agent who caused it is in the ERG.

2. Transitive verbs, like taron, one is causing the action to happen but not doing it oneself, i.e. Eytukanìl Neytirir yerikit teykolaron. "Eytukan made Neytiri hunt a hexaped."  The agent who caused the action takes the ERG, the noun acted on by the verb takes ACC as in the non-causitive sentence, and the person caused to do the verb is in the DAT.

[THEORIZING] I don't think the specific entity that performed the action need be outright stated.  Eytukanìl tspeykolang pot.  "Eytukan had him killed." It doesn't seem important to say "by someone", and it follows the same structure as "I had that changed".  I could be wrong though.

But how do you say "I made him change that"?  maybe: Oel poru leykolatam tsat. or also (I am more sure about this one): Oel fa po leykolatam tsat. [/THEORIZING]

-Keyl




msg=112557 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 23:07:16 | u=631

Re: The causative infix

Plumps83

[font=Garamond][desc=I'm happy about the quick replies. Thanks]Oeru teya si fwa sì'eyng fìtxan win lu :) Irayo[/desc]



msg=105363 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 09:38:48 | u=73

SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Prrton

[quote=Paul Frommer in mail to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010]*Fayl*ìri lEksel irayo seiyi oe ngar, ma oeyä 'eylan. Tsat sayar oel nìltsan.

Tewti! Ngeyä lì'fya leNa'vi txantsan lu nìngay. Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si.


sar = 'to use'

fìtxan = 'so, to such an extent'

oeru teya si: 'fills me' (an idiom, English version courtesy James Cameron; understood: "with satisfaction, with joy")[/quote]

My translation ( :-[ ) only so we can understand the context of his usage:

    I thank you for the Excel file (*fayl* le.Eksel), my friend. I will use it well.

    Wow! Your Na'vi language is truly excellent. It fills me (with satisfaction/joy)
    that people like you can use my strange/funny little creation to
    speak so beautifully.


Other interesting (to me tid bits):

- « Fwa » at the very beginning of the sentence
- Cameron's role/specificity in the idiom « teya si »
- « Tsat » used pragmatically as "it"

NB: for "Excel" (« Eksel ») to modify "file" (« *fayl* ») it takes the adjectivization prefex « le- ». In English we would just stick one before the other with no other part of speech/particle to "make a connection". This is an important difference to note especially since these are both "loan words" into Na'vi. We will have a LOT of these to deal with when speaking in Na'vi about things that are only relevant to Earth ( 'Rrta ), but we should be careful for both our phonological and grammatical "hygiene" to pronounce words and keep them grammatically related as they would be if they were native Na'vi vocabulary. This doesn't matter whether the words are coming from English, German, Japanese, Polish, Swedish, Turkish, French, or whatever...

Edited: 19 Feb. 2010, 9:10 PST to correct mistranslation of « hì'i » from "funny/strange" to "small/little")



msg=105383 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 10:01:35 | u=195

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

esoanem

So we're now certain about tsa = it.

And two new words, yay! Now I don't have to use "tìkangkem s<eyk>i".

As for the fwa, looking at the sentence it would ahve to be there in order to keep the focus in the right place. What is interesting is that he didn't use a fì'u instead.



msg=105405 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 10:54:15 | u=54

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Tiger

It seems to me that "fwa" at the start of a sentence is a shortening of "This is X"... which if translated directly would come out as "Fì'u lu fwa X" or just "Lu fwa X" both of which contain superfluous words.  So that one makes perfect sense to me.

To use = big win though, I've been wanting that verb for awhile.



msg=105414 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 11:10:59 | u=1434

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Kazgard

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg105363#msg105363 date=1266572328]
[quote=Paul Frommer in mail to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010]... oeyä hì'iya tìngopit ...
[/quote]

... my strange/funny creation ...
[/quote]

Shouldn't that be hì'i, "small"? The y prior to -a is throwing me, though.




msg=105452 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:15:20 | u=21

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4956.msg105405#msg105405 date=1266576855]
It seems to me that "fwa" at the start of a sentence is a shortening of "This is X"... which if translated directly would come out as "Fì'u lu fwa X" or just "Lu fwa X" both of which contain superfluous words.  So that one makes perfect sense to me.[/quote]

That interpretation seems a bit elaborated to me.

[Fwa (= fì'u a) [sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'iya tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan]] oeru teya si.

Before seeing this sentence, I would have constructed it with a fì'u after fìtxan.



msg=105539 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 13:30:18 | u=1485

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Erimeyz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg105363#msg105363 date=1266572328]
Other interesting (to me tid bits):
- Cameron's role/specificity in the idiom « teya si »
[/quote]
I suspect that some of the most interesting parts of Na'vi are going to rely on [desc=the mind of Creator Jim]Ngopyu Jìmeyä ronsem[/desc].  I (think? doubt?) that Pawl doesn't have a free hand to come up culturally-dependent stuff like idioms on his own, and I (worry? fear?) that he may not have enough access to Jìm to get new cultural material vetted at the pace that he wants to create and use it.

I ruminated [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg104892/#msg104892]here[/url] about the upcoming colors and directions.  They'd be most interesting (imho) if they showed some kind derivation from the unique cultural or biological circumstances of the Na'vi.  But Pawl probably can't make those kinds of decisions - he makes the language, but Jìm makes The People.  I'd hate to think that the potential of the language might be held back because Cameron is busy doing whatever he does when he's not making a movie.

  - Eri



msg=105820 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 17:05:38 | u=73

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Prrton

[quote author=Sanmäkx link=topic=4956.msg105414#msg105414 date=1266577859]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg105363#msg105363 date=1266572328]
[quote=Paul Frommer in mail to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010]... oeyä hì'iya tìngopit ...
[/quote]

... my strange/funny creation ...
[/quote]

Shouldn't that be hì'i, "small"? The y prior to -a is throwing me, though.


[/quote]

YES! You are absolutely correct. I have no business editing ANYTHING at 2:00 in the morning. The "funny" thing (and very interesting thing about human cognition and memory) is that oeyä eltu woke me up this morning telling me you've messed up « hì'i » and turned it into « hiyìk »! I rush her and sure enough you've found it and THANKFULLY pointed it out to everyone! Ngaru irayo seiyi oe, ma tsmuk!. And how incredibly SKXAWNG of me (skxawng apxa / apxa skxawng) to believe such a translation in the first place (even my own mistaken one, and even at 2:00 AM)!

[desc=I'm fixing to (Southern English for -ìy-) try to change it (fix it) right now! (*pxi.set is MY word for right now. It is NOT canon.)]*Pxi.set fmìyi tsat leykivatem nìeyawr![/desc]

I humbly apologize to everyone (and especially K. Pawl) for this apxa zoplo!

I think that the -i.y.a must have thrown me off too. It's probably a typo. I'm going to remove it now, and check with him, and put it back if it needs to be there. Great catch!



msg=105985 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 19:04:44 | u=664

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Keyltstxatsmen

I'm excited about this:  ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...

I wanted this infinite predicate verb construction (IANAL) many times and thought that this may be the way to do it from listening to Mo'at's lines in the movie, but here is another good example.

I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.

-Keyl



msg=106388 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:16:46 | u=3552

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

tigermind

Huzzah!  Seeing how fte is used here means i can go back and fix another translation of mine.



msg=106413 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:36:56 | u=1485

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Erimeyz

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg105985#msg105985 date=1266606284]
I'm excited about this:  ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...

I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.
[/quote]

Can you really extrapolate that?  The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB").  That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.

Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?

  - Eri



msg=106445 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:59:03 | u=664

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg106413#msg106413 date=1266622616]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg105985#msg105985 date=1266606284]
I'm excited about this:  ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...

I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.
[/quote]

Can you really extrapolate that?  The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB").  That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.

Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?

  - Eri

[/quote]

"Learn to VERB" is from Mo'at's line in the movie, so I'm starting to think that "verb fte verb" is a standard construction.  You could say it the other way as well though, I think, depends on the situation and the transitivity of the verb most likely.

-Kale



msg=106898 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 11:15:07 | u=2873

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Skyinou

Kaltxì

"nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi" and "nume pivlltxe nìNav'i" probably don't have the same meaning.
In the first one, you learn something with the goal of speaking Na'vi.
In the second, you learn something which is the way of speaking in Na'vi.



msg=107289 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:41:41 | u=664

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg106898#msg106898 date=1266664507]
Kaltxì

"nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi" and "nume pivlltxe nìNav'i" probably don't have the same meaning.
In the first one, you learn something with the goal of speaking Na'vi.
In the second, you learn something which is the way of speaking in Na'vi.
[/quote]

Has nume pivlltxe nìNa'vi been used in the cannon yet? If it has that would make things a lot easier, but I was under the impression that the V + SJT-V construction was only used for zene, kin, new, and tsun up to this point.  

-Keyl



msg=107297 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:44:33 | u=3845

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

ikngopyu

I've a question about sivar (a n00b one but I try  :)), is sivar from sar = to use + <iv> ?



msg=107299 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:47:36 | u=2873

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Skyinou

ma Keyl,
The use is only approved with modal verbs, yes, but even if that's not correct with other verbs, there will probably be an other construction for "to + verb", because of the ambiguity I stated earlier, if I'm correct.

[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=4956.msg107297#msg107297 date=1266687873]
I've a question about sivar (a n00b one but I try  :)), is sivar from sar = to use + <iv> ?
[/quote]
Yes!
"can use" => "tsun sivar"



msg=107307 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:55:58 | u=664

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107299#msg107299 date=1266688056]
ma Keyl,
The use is only approved with modal verbs, yes, but even if that's not correct with other verbs, there will probably be an other construction for "to + verb", because of the ambiguity I stated earlier, if I'm correct.
[/quote]

Couldn't what you trying to say be expressed like this:

nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi

vs

nume lì'fyat leNa'vi fte pivlltxe

-Keyl



msg=107352 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 18:28:43 | u=2873

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Skyinou

I think you understand me, I would even say:
2) nume Naviyä lì'fyat apuslltxe (if "puslltxe" can be "spoken")

I try to not use "fpe", because the goal is not stated in this one, but is in the first one.
And what is learned is stated in this one, but not in the first one.



msg=107374 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 18:53:21 | u=664

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107352#msg107352 date=1266690523]
I think you understand me, I would even say:
2) nume Naviyä lì'fyat apuslltxe (if "puslltxe" can be "spoken")

I try to not use "fpe", because the goal is not stated in this one, but is in the first one.
And what is learned is stated in this one, but not in the first one.
[/quote]

Srane, good use of puslltxe, I think that's perfect.  Any reason for the change to Na'viyä?

-Keyl



msg=107392 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:12:19 | u=21

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

wm.annis

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107352#msg107352 date=1266690523]
I think you understand me, I would even say:
2) nume Naviyä lì'fyat apuslltxe (if "puslltxe" can be "spoken")

I try to not use "fpe", because the goal is not stated in this one, but is in the first one.[/quote]

The usual phrase for "the Na'vi language" in Frommer's work is lì'fya leNa'vi.

I'm afraid puslltxe can absolutely not mean "spoken," which is passive.  "Speaking" is the meaning of puslltxe.

I personally prefer the fpe form, which should be thought of less as indicating goal than purpose.  I study in order to speak Na'vi.  That's what we mean by "I study to speak Na'vi" anyway.



msg=107407 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:25:34 | u=2873

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Skyinou

[quote]Any reason for the change to Na'viyä[/quote]
I like the genitive to say it belongs to the Na'vi. Their language. But It seems I'm wrong if wm.annis say Frommer usually use "lì'fya leNa'vi".

I'm sure I read Frommer saying the passive "us" was used only as an adjective. I'll check it again.
But if "kerusey" is "not living" and used as an adjective (keruseya tute), then "lì'fya puslltxe" should be ok for "spoken language", no?

[quote]That's what we mean by "I study to speak Na'vi" anyway.[/quote]
Ok, then how would you say the other in english? "I study the way of speaking in Na'vi"? Or do you have to say "I study the Na'vi language"?



msg=107411 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:28:17 | u=21

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

wm.annis

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107407#msg107407 date=1266693934]I'm sure I read Frommer saying the passive "us" was used only as an adjective. [/quote]

It is a participle, and acts like an adjective — just not a passive one.  For now, Frommer seems to be excluding the passive from Na'vi.



msg=107420 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:38:54 | u=2873

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Skyinou

Yes, sorry for that and thanks!

I should then say:
"nume lì'fyat leNa'vi" or "nume lì'fyat a plltxe Na'vi"



msg=107438 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:51:47 | u=1120

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4956.msg107411#msg107411 date=1266694097]
For now, Frommer seems to be excluding the passive from Na'vi.
[/quote]

I like this. F said re the phonology that a language is not defined just by what it has (ejectives, syllabic C's) but by what it lacks (voiced plosives, postalveolars, /oy/). I'd like this to be a case in the grammar too, where Na'vi doesn't have every feature that European langs do. Like lacking a passive, and we just need to learn to work around it. There's no need for a passive in a language without subjects anyway.



msg=107527 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:35:47 | u=2873

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Skyinou

You are so right!
And the same way with the lack of verb "to have"!

These two at least describe Na'vi, ...
but that would be a philosophical talk I can't afford in english  ;D



msg=107924 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 01:10:30 | u=73

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=4956.msg107438#msg107438 date=1266695507]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4956.msg107411#msg107411 date=1266694097]
For now, Frommer seems to be excluding the passive from Na'vi.
[/quote]

I like this. F said re the phonology that a language is not defined just by what it has (ejectives, syllabic C's) but by what it lacks (voiced plosives, postalveolars, /oy/). I'd like this to be a case in the grammar too, where Na'vi doesn't have every feature that European langs do. Like lacking a passive, and we just need to learn to work around it. There's no need for a passive in a language without subjects anyway.
[/quote]

The « fko/fkol » constructs *felt* like something vaguely *passive* to me even before K. Pawl clarified it.

I feel like there IS the *function* of passive, it just doesn't happen via a verbal construct:

  « Yamom wutsot letrr (fkol) », in my book, gets translated as "Lunch was eaten".

I don't have it in writing from him, but when the OBJECT is promoted to the head of the phrase (and possibly stressed in pronunciation), the attention is focused on IT, so the overall *importance* of the focus is highlighted and does more or less functionally the same thing as changing the verb does in English/Romance languages.

  « Wutsot yamom nìwotx Tsu'teyl », becomes "The meal was devoured by Tsu'tey." (If the agent, Tsu'tey, needs clarification.)

This is radically *normative* compared to the way so many things work (and more importantly DON'T work) in [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_language]Pirahã[/url]. And it's spoken right here on Earth.  ;)  Still... But for how long?...  :(


_____________________________
 



msg=108228 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 08:12:17 | u=3845

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

ikngopyu

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107299#msg107299 date=1266688056]
ma Keyl,
The use is only approved with modal verbs, yes, but even if that's not correct with other verbs, there will probably be an other construction for "to + verb", because of the ambiguity I stated earlier, if I'm correct.

[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=4956.msg107297#msg107297 date=1266687873]
I've a question about sivar (a n00b one but I try  :)), is sivar from sar = to use + <iv> ?
[/quote]
Yes!
"can use" => "tsun sivar"
[/quote]

Kaltxì ma tsmukan ulte ngar irayo seiyi oe nìtxan !

We definitively need an update in the awesome Taronyu's dictionary !



msg=109111 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 20:53:01 | u=2788

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg106445#msg106445 date=1266623943]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg106413#msg106413 date=1266622616]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg105985#msg105985 date=1266606284]
I'm excited about this:  ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...

I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.
[/quote]

Can you really extrapolate that?  The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB").  That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.

Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?

  - Eri

[/quote]

"Learn to VERB" is from Mo'at's line in the movie, so I'm starting to think that "verb fte verb" is a standard construction.  You could say it the other way as well though, I think, depends on the situation and the transitivity of the verb most likely.

-Kale
[/quote]

Not quite. I'm assuming that this is the line you're referring to:

Nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pi(l)vlltxe sì tivìran na ayoeng.

So it's not "learn to VERB", it's "teach him so that he VERB", with the subjunctive; fte indicates purpose.



msg=109381 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 00:54:29 | u=664

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=4956.msg109111#msg109111 date=1266785581]
Not quite. I'm assuming that this is the line you're referring to:

Nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pi(l)vlltxe sì tivìran na ayoeng.

So it's not "learn to VERB", it's "teach him so that he VERB", with the subjunctive; fte indicates purpose.
[/quote]

Ah, yeah it was teach. :)  Darn it.  I still think it's a useful construction though, and I'm glad to see it used in a different place.

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg106413#msg106413 date=1266622616]
Can you really extrapolate that?  The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB").  That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.

Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?
[/quote]

Would you need the subjunctive after futa in that form? Also what does this mean:

Oel namume futa p(iv)lltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan. 

Does it mean "I learned to speak Na'vi well" or "I learned that I speak Na'vi well"?

-Keyl





msg=110181 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 17:56:07 | u=195

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

esoanem

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg107924#msg107924 date=1266714630]
I feel like there IS the *function* of passive, it just doesn't happen via a verbal construct:
[/quote]

Oe mllte.

Likewise, phrases that function like passive participles could be formed using "fko [verb]" and a relative clause marker.

So, "the hunted yerik" -> [desc=yerik that one hunts]yerik a fko taron[/desc] and "the stopped game" would be [desc=the game that one has stopped]fko ftolang a uvan[/desc].




msg=110344 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 19:21:25 | u=2873

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Skyinou

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg109381#msg109381 date=1266800069]
Oel namume futa p(iv)lltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan.  

Does it mean "I learned to speak Na'vi well" or "I learned that I speak Na'vi well"?
[/quote]
I think it will be the first, because "learn" in the way of the second one is probably an other verb in Na'vi.
(I mean: probably you can "nivume" a lesson, not a news.)

And I think that for "I learned that I speak Na'vi well", there will be no <iv> in "plltxe".



msg=110672 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 22:09:05 | u=3845

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

ikngopyu

I agree with you Skyinou, nume have the meaning of to learn (something), not to be told that (something).

If it were the same verb, we couldn't have a subjunctive, as it could be something reported by someone else, not our opinion.

Nevertheless, I guess that in oel namume futa p(iv)lltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan, the futa construction is clearly closed to "I learned that I speak Na'vi well" as futa is fì'ut+a. For "I learned to speak Na'vi well", this could be unsuitable.



msg=110750 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 22:31:09 | u=664

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=4956.msg110672#msg110672 date=1266876545]
I agree with you Skyinou, nume have the meaning of to learn (something), not to be told that (something).

If it were the same verb, we couldn't have a subjunctive, as it could be something reported by someone else, not our opinion.

Nevertheless, I guess that in oel namume futa p(iv)lltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan, the futa construction is clearly closed to "I learned that I speak Na'vi well" as futa is fì'ut+a. For "I learned to speak Na'vi well", this could be unsuitable.
[/quote]

Irayo, ikngopyu! Finally someone agrees with me. :)

Regardless of if nume can be used this other way or not, I would rather say Oe namume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan. to mean "I learned to speak Na'vi well" (assuming that nume can be used intransitively).  "futa" seems strange here.

-Keyl




msg=110924 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 00:27:26 | u=54

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Tiger

What about....

Oel nerume fya'ot a pivlltxe nìNa'vi?
I am learning how to speak Na'vi.



msg=110932 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 00:37:30 | u=664

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4956.msg110924#msg110924 date=1266884846]
What about....

Oel nerume fya'ot a pivlltxe nìNa'vi?
I am learning how to speak Na'vi.
[/quote]

Oel nerume fya'ot a fko pivlltxe nìNa'vi
I am learning how one speaks Na'vingly.

I feel like the subject needs to be stated in this case, since it's different from the main subject.  I should probably start a new topic...

Still it seems like we are getting further and further from "I learn to speak Na'vi".

-Keyl



msg=111011 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 01:45:49 | u=1120

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

roger

Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.

Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.



msg=111066 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 03:17:50 | u=54

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Tiger

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg110932#msg110932 date=1266885450]
Still it seems like we are getting further and further from "I learn to speak Na'vi".

-Keyl
[/quote]I'd disagree and say we jut got a lot closer.  When you say "I learn to speak Na'vi" in English, it seems to me that it's a short form of saying "I learn HOW to speak Na'vi".  So looking at the parts...

Oel nerume fya'ot a X = I learn how X
You're probably right about fko, without it could be taken as "I learn how I speak Na'vi"...  Maybe right in Na'vi, maybe not.  Certainly not right in English.  But with it, the second part "Fko pivlltxe nìNa'vi" - one speaks in Na'vi.  "I learn how one speaks in Na'vi".



msg=111175 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 05:41:27 | u=1225

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

neotrekkerz

[quote]Oel nerume fya'ot a X = I learn how X[/quote]

I know that fya'o means way and indeed it makes a lot of sense to use it as how, but do we have confirmation of its use as a conjunction?  Maybe add it to the list if we don't.  Same for why being used as a conjunction too, now that I think of it.



msg=111216 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 06:40:46 | u=54

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Tiger

It's not being used as a conjunction.  a is.

The main clause is "I learn the way", then the subordinate clarifies "way" as specifically "The way to speak Na'vi", attributed with an "a" to Fya'o.



msg=111239 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 07:37:48 | u=3845

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

ikngopyu

[quote author=roger link=topic=4956.msg111011#msg111011 date=1266889549]
Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.

Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.
[/quote]

Kaltxì ma roger !

Why are you using a double subjunctive ? Is simply oe nerume fte tsun pivlltxe nìNa'vi correct ?



msg=111240 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 07:38:46 | u=664

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4956.msg111066#msg111066 date=1266895070]
I'd disagree and say we jut got a lot closer.  When you say "I learn to speak Na'vi" in English, it seems to me that it's a short form of saying "I learn HOW to speak Na'vi".  
[/quote]

It seems to me like "to speak" is an infinitive acting as a noun (another example: "I like to speak Na'vi"), but in this case the English does seem to suggest that you do not have the ability to speak Na'vi.  This is probably English's fault.

I still think roger's second sentence is the "best" (most direct) translation without having to add any more words than neccesary.  
Oe nume fte tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.

-Keyl  

EVEN MORE OFF TOPIC:
For other constuctions, as in "I like to speak Na'vi", the noun-maker tì- is probably the way to go: Tìpllxte leNa'vi oeru prrte' lu, unless of course there are a lot of things attached to the infinitive verb like "I like to hunt stingbats with a spear" which would probably go like:  Taron (ay)ritit tukrufa a fì'u oeru prrte' lu.  The subject of the relative clause being oe, so it can be left out.

It seems like we will have to find something that works on a verb by verb basis.




msg=111250 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 07:51:45 | u=1120

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

roger

[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=4956.msg111239#msg111239 date=1266910668]
[quote author=roger link=topic=4956.msg111011#msg111011 date=1266889549]
Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.

Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.
[/quote]

Kaltxì ma roger !

Why are you using a double subjunctive ? Is simply oe nerume fte tsun pivlltxe nìNa'vi correct ?
[/quote]

I think generally fte + sjv ≈ infinitive. "I learn in order that I may be able to speak", not *"I learn in order that I can speak". That is, the goal of the learning is being able to speak, but you won't necessarily be successful. You can still say oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe nìNa'vi even if the end result is oe ke tsolun pivlltxe nìNa'vi.



msg=111253 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 07:56:14 | u=1120

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

roger

Of course, there's always oe nerume lì'fyat Na'viyä.



msg=116861 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:44:40 | u=73

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=4956.msg111011#msg111011 date=1266889549]
Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.

Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.
[/quote]

I agree that these both sound like the most *Na'vi* way to say this, the 2nd being the "even more native" approach.

I don't think that that subjunctive is absolutely required here on « tsun », but I'd probably use it the same way myself.

Often feel *compelled* to use « tsun » after « fte » and just as often again to put it in the subjunctive. I'm not completely sure why, but that's what it *feels* like to me. Na'vi also seems to like « fko » more than English likes "one", but it doesn't seem required (strongly indicated) in this particular scenario to me.



msg=116868 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 08:04:27 | u=54

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Tiger

Damn me and my English only knowledge.  After beating my head around trying to figure out why nobody else seemed to like my way, it finally occurred to me that it may just have been I was going after how it is said in English would not be how it is said in other languages.  (And google search agrees that "learn how to X" is used far more than "learn so that X" in English, with the latter referring to indirect effects of the learning rather than direct effects.)

It would be interesting to hear Karyu Pawl's thoughts on this, but IMO it's something relatively unimportant at this point since it's just picking up details of the best way to say something we know rather than how to say something we don't.



msg=117056 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 11:57:31 | u=2873

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Skyinou

I hunt to live.
I learn to speak.

If those two sentences are correct and constructed the same way, it should be "learn so that (I can) speak"?

[quote= Prrton]
Often feel *compelled* to use « tsun » after « fte » and just as often again to put it in the subjunctive..
[/quote]
That's often use in french with "pouvoir = can = tsun" being infinitive (when we wonder about "iv" being able to make a verb infinitive), but in english it seems a little weird.
"[...]pour pouvoir parler[...]" => "[...]so that I can speak[...]"

Then it probably isn't subjonctive if "iv" can not make an infinitive.  :P
(But once again we need more more mooooooooore  ;D )



msg=117158 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 13:43:47 | u=1485

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Erimeyz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg116861#msg116861 date=1267170280]
Often feel *compelled* to use « tsun » after « fte » and just as often again to put it in the subjunctive. I'm not completely sure why, but that's what it *feels* like to me. Na'vi also seems to like « fko » more than English likes "one", but it doesn't seem required (strongly indicated) in this particular scenario to me.
[/quote]

[desc=Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Na'vi, the touchy-feely language.]Ma aysute sì aysutean, werìntu ayngengaru ohel li'fyati leNa'vi, a lu li'fya le'ampi'it le'efu'it.[/desc]

  - Eri



msg=123469 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 00:02:16 | u=73

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Prrton

I've recently learned (but don't have any documentation to show  :-\\ ) that "ALL of the verbal infixes for EVERYTHING EXCEPT" the attachment function of -iv- after « new, tsun, zene » etc. "are OPTIONAL". I was kind of shocked, but after I thought about it a second it made sense based on K. Pawl's Mandarin, etc.

So, « [desc=Yesterday (I) WENT with Tsu'tey to and fro in the forest so (we) COULD hunt yerik.]Trram hu Tsu'tey kä kip senge na'rìngä fte tsun tivaron yerikit.[/desc] » is completely correct.

EVERYTHING that can be understood from context can be left out! There's a PARTY in my left cortex (oh and now it's in the right one too)!! Surely this will baffle many, but it makes Na'vi much more interesting and accessible to speakers of languages that commonly do this (and simultaneously lowers the barrier of entry for new learners for whom Na'vi will be their second language).

There is only ONE infix that MUST be learned to get going (-iv-). And for those who WANT to INITIALLY think of it as an IndoEuropean infinitive, go right ahead !!

        Häle(frìkìn)luya!

  Nawma Sa'nok  >>>  ;D

PS: If anyone feels that this can be moved to a more main topic without proper documentation, then please, move away. I'm just not prepared to do that. One is apt to smite me for hearsay.  ;)



msg=123545 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 01:04:51 | u=54

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Tiger

I assume that äp, eyk and us are also exceptions since they change the nature of the verb.  This is sort of how I've been using Na'vi for awhile actually, and it seemed like we were getting that hint from Paul for awhile.



msg=123761 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 05:36:33 | u=73

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4956.msg123545#msg123545 date=1267491891]
I assume that äp, eyk and us are also exceptions since they change the nature of the verb.  This is sort of how I've been using Na'vi for awhile actually, and it seemed like we were getting that hint from Paul for awhile.
[/quote]

Yes. You're right. [desc=Unquestionably]Nìkeatìpawm[/desc]. The "pre-first" things are different and more radically change the meanings, so when they are needed, they're not optional.

  ;D



msg=124238 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 14:46:25 | u=1485

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Erimeyz

... didn't we already know that?

[quote author=Frommer via Language Log]
First-position infixes indicate tense, aspect, or mood; there are also participial and reflexive infixes in this position, the latter being in “pre-first” position so it can co-occur with other first-position infixes. Second-position infixes indicate speaker attitude—positive orientation, negative orientation, or uncertainty/indirect knowledge. Many of these infixes are optional on the sentence level. (In discourse, however, overt indication of tense or aspect may be required.)
[/quote]

Wikibooks has been saying for a while (based on the above quote, I assume) that tense and aspect can be omitted when understood from context.  I've seen various people assert (based on what, I'm not sure - maybe movie dialog?) that the formality infix can be used initially and then dropped subsequently.  And we know that positive/negative infixes aren't required to express a positive/negative orientation: c.f. nga yawne lu oer.

So the new bit here is that this also applies to the uncertainty infix <ats> and the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Verb_syntax#The_Subjunctive]non-modal uses of <iv>[/url] (optative, fte, txo, tsni).  Wrt <ats>, it seems kind of obvious that you can express uncertainty without explicitly marking the verb, given that we have the adverb kxawm.  Or maybe that's not so obvious?

Wrt <iv>, I think we still don't understand this morpheme very well, and I'm not sure this clears it up much.  We know the optative use is optional, and [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Trials_.26_transitivity]Frommer's email from Feb 15[/url] makes it clear that the forms with (optative) and without (imperative) are equivalent, at least in "modern Na'vi".  As for fte, txo, and tsni, they seem to me like they're similar enough in form and style to new, tsun, and zene that the "attachment" function still requires <iv> in those cases, and unfortunately your description of your recent learning doesn't give us enough to know for sure.

On the other hand...

[quote author=Prrton's left cortex]
EVERYTHING that can be understood from context can be left out!
[/quote]

Having this as an explicitly stated principle would be a very, very valuable thing to have.  I suspect it applies to much, much more than the mechanics of verbal infixes.  It relates to Na'vi as a pro-drop language, for example.  We've certainly seen this principle in action many, many times, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it were broadly true of the language as a whole.  But before making a claim that strong, I'd want to see it from The Man himself, just so that we're all clear about it.  It's a pretty big gun, and I'd want it to be fully cocked before we go around shooting it off.

If it were true, then I'd even go so far as to say that the pre-first infixes are ALSO optional, if they can be understood from context.  Which may not be often, but could certainly happen:

   Q: Oel sngeykirvä'i set tìkangkemit srak?  I should be beginning the work now, yes?
   A: Sngä'i.  Begin.

The latter use of sngä'i is strictly speaking "wrong", as the implied sentence is you begin the work which would require the causative version of the verb.  But under the principle of EVERYTHING that can be understood from context can be left out! then it's clear from context that A is saying you begin the work, not the work begins, so all that's needed is the bare verbal root "begin"!

(Actually, in this example, it's probably ambiguous whether A is saying you begin or the work begins.  Either might be intended, and both have the same meaning in this case, so I think here you have an example of grammatically acceptable ambiguity - which is a similar, but different, principle from grammatically acceptable elision of contextually implied elements.  But I think you get my point anyway, srak?)

================

Ma Prrton, I strongly suggest you consider carefully exactly what it is that you have recently learned, and then make a new top-level post explaining it as well as you can.  Even if you can't quote sources directly, please paraphrase as well and as closely as you can.  I think we all stand to benefit from it, and no matter what the learning is, it would benefit from a separate post.

 - Eri



msg=124246 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 14:53:48 | u=1485

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Erimeyz

... and in case I didn't make it clear, regardless of my nitpicking I still take the broad point of your message, and indeed my cortices ring with the sound of merry-making.

Oops, looks like we're out of beer over at my place.  Mind if we drop by and crash your party?

Got any cheese dip?

  - Eri



msg=124303 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 15:44:44 | u=1485

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Erimeyz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg123469#msg123469 date=1267488136]
PS: If anyone feels that this can be moved to a more main topic without proper documentation, then please, move away. I'm just not prepared to do that. One is apt to smite me for hearsay.  ;)
[/quote]

You misspelled "heresy".

;)



msg=125023 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 23:08:44 | u=1120

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

roger

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg124303#msg124303 date=1267544684]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg123469#msg123469 date=1267488136]
PS: If anyone feels that this can be moved to a more main topic without proper documentation, then please, move away. I'm just not prepared to do that. One is apt to smite me for hearsay.  ;)
[/quote]

You misspelled "heresy".

;)

[/quote]

I think that's intentional!



msg=125028 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 23:11:33 | u=1120

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

roger

It would be nice if <ac> were grammatically required in a few cases the way <iv> is. We'll see; I don't think it's well worked out yet.



msg=125201 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 01:46:51 | u=73

Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »

Prrton

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg124238#msg124238 date=1267541185]

Ma Prrton, I strongly suggest you consider carefully exactly what it is that you have recently learned, and then make a new top-level post explaining it as well as you can.  Even if you can't quote sources directly, please paraphrase as well and as closely as you can.  I think we all stand to benefit from it, and no matter what the learning is, it would benefit from a separate post.

 - Eri

[/quote]

I heard from a bird that perhaps someone else might be doing this soon ENOUGH, so I'm not going to make any moves.  ;)



msg=106055 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:09:26 | u=1120

the evidential at last

roger

Just got this:

[quote author=Frommer]
Ma oeyä eylan,

Fpìrmìl oel futa aynga natsew tsive’a fi’ut.

[ -ìrm- : past proximate imperfective – “was just thinking . . . “

-ats- : 2nd position infix indicating uncertainty or indirect knowledge: “you might want.” Could be used with “kxawm,” redundantly, for reinforcement.]

I was corresponding with someone from Wales, and the question of lenition in Celtic came up. I mentioned the connection to Na’vi and thought you might to see it too. No new content here, just history. :-)

“In 1998 I visited Ireland and of course wanted to try to learn a little Irish for the occasion. Wow! I consider myself a pretty sophisticated language learner, but Irish knocked me for a loop. (And they say English spelling is hard!) I found the mutations—if I remember correctly, eclipsis and lenition—very interesting. And lenition wound up influencing Na’vi. I had also studied Hebrew, where there’s a process of “spirantization” that has something of the same effect although in different environments, so that was an influence as well.

“The final influence was Malay/Indonesian, where certain prefixes mutate the initial consonant of the root. It always tickled me that in a Malay dictionary, you need to look up the word “menarik” under T, the word “memandang” under P, and the word “menyatukan” under S! And that situation, of course, has a parallel in Na’vi, with the “short plurals.” (You look up “hilvan” under K, “sute” under T, “fizayu” under P, etc.)

Pawl
[/quote]



msg=106098 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:26:32 | u=631

Re: the evidential at last

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]And there I thought all my talk about Irish, lenition and certain forms were just my imagination :P

Wow, what a treat today!
Thanks for sharing!



msg=106110 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:33:48 | u=430

Re: the evidential at last

TehMightyPirate

wow, I would love to have a full biography of the Na'vi language, that would be so great.



msg=106166 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:59:15 | u=1244

Re: the evidential at last

Eight

Is that going to be part of a full evidential system then?

At the moment it looks like a pretty simple epistemic modality infix... a boody handy one though.



msg=106183 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:07:59 | u=73

Re: the evidential at last

Prrton

[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106166#msg106166 date=1266613155]
Is that going to be part of a full evidential system then?

At the moment it looks like a pretty simple epistemic modality infix... a boody handy one though.
[/quote]

Oel fperìl futa furia [desc=in the sense of]*nìtì'efu[/desc] 'aw'u 'awpor livaw ke livaw, fra'u *fafì[desc=infix/particle]'itlì[/desc] hasey lu.

Keyawr?



msg=106193 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:14:19 | u=21

Re: the evidential at last

wm.annis

I am happy to see our evidential (might be the only one).  My brains hurt, though, to see it in a subordinate clause.



msg=106217 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:26:40 | u=1244

Re: the evidential at last

Eight

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=5001.msg106183#msg106183 date=1266613679]
[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106166#msg106166 date=1266613155]
Is that going to be part of a full evidential system then?

At the moment it looks like a pretty simple epistemic modality infix... a boody handy one though.
[/quote]

Oel fperìl futa furia [desc=in the sense of]*nìtì'efu[/desc] 'aw'u livaw ke livaw, fra'u *fafì[desc=infix/particle]'itlì[/desc] hasey lu.

Keyawr?
[/quote]
Oel ke tslamängam futa ngal oeru pìmeng. :D

Edit: Forgot ke - quite important in this case.



msg=106306 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 22:33:49 | u=1120

Re: the evidential at last

roger

[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106166#msg106166 date=1266613155]
Is that going to be part of a full evidential system then?
[/quote]

I think that's it. There's still a question whether it's only pragmatic, or if it will be grammatically required in some constructions. I mean, can we honestly say po new kivä, since we can't really know what another person feels? Or would that be ungrammatical?



msg=106325 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 22:48:36 | u=21

Re: the evidential at last

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg106306#msg106306 date=1266618829]I think that's it. There's still a question whether it's only pragmatic, or if it will be grammatically required in some constructions. I mean, can we honestly say po new kivä, since we can't really know what another person feels? Or would that be ungrammatical? [/quote]

Sure we can — they can tell us, or otherwise say things that let us know.

Evidentials must be clearly distinguished from mood (the subjunctive).  The evidential is about epistemology — how you know what you're saying.  The subjunctive mood says things about possibility, although in Na'vi some uses border on pure syntax.



msg=106411 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:34:46 | u=1120

Re: the evidential at last

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5001.msg106325#msg106325 date=1266619716]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg106306#msg106306 date=1266618829]I think that's it. There's still a question whether it's only pragmatic, or if it will be grammatically required in some constructions. I mean, can we honestly say po new kivä, since we can't really know what another person feels? Or would that be ungrammatical? [/quote]

Sure we can — they can tell us, or otherwise say things that let us know.
[/quote]

In some languages you can't. If they tell you, then you must use a quotative particle, but you can't just say someone is happy: they look happy, sound happy, etc., but not *are* happy. I suppose you might be able to say that if you're in tsaheylu, though.



msg=106486 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:51:37 | u=1244

Re: the evidential at last

Eight

[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg106306#msg106306 date=1266618829]
I think that's it.
[/quote]
Oh :(

Never studied a language with an explicit evidential system before... I was hoping for one here.

But I just don't see -ats- as particularly evidential unless we're supposed to concentrate on the second part of "indicating uncertainty or ìindirect knowledge" and in which case, anyone got a better English translation than "might"?

aynga natsew... I hear you might want... I'm told you want...

But in a subordinate clause it translates really badly

I was just thinking that I'm told you want...

Uck.




msg=106502 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:02:39 | u=21

Re: the evidential at last

wm.annis

[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106486#msg106486 date=1266627097]Never studied a language with an explicit evidential system before... I was hoping for one here. [/quote]

And this one's a doozie.  I don't know how common it is to have the inferential evidential as the sole explicit form.  It seems unusual to me.

Unless he goofed in his wording on the Language Log post, I don't expect to see any more evidentials for Na'vi.

[quote]But I just don't see -ats- as particularly evidential unless we're supposed to concentrate on the second part of "indicating uncertainty or ìindirect knowledge" and in which case, anyone got a better English translation than "might"?[/quote]

To quote myself, from a different post —  "English (and Dutch, it turns out) uses the verb "must" to indicate both obligation and this suppositional notion.  If you're going to meet a friend to see "Avatar" for the 32nd time or whatever, and you get there and don't see him, you could say, "he must be inside already."  This isn't a statement of obligation, but of judgement."

So, "you must want to see this" catches the flavor, though it sounds just a bit off to me.  Based on the deluge of mail he's been getting from us, he's thinking we must want this information... that works a bit better.



msg=106505 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:05:14 | u=1120

Re: the evidential at last

roger

[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106486#msg106486 date=1266627097]
Oh :(

Never studied a language with an explicit evidential system before... I was hoping for one here.

But I just don't see -ats- as particularly evidential unless we're supposed to concentrate on the second part of "indicating uncertainty or ìindirect knowledge" and in which case, anyone got a better English translation than "might"?

aynga natsew... I hear you might want... I'm told you want...

But in a subordinate clause it translates really badly

I was just thinking that I'm told you want...

Uck.
[/quote]

A lot of Na'vi is like this: something exotic, but just a bit of it, so that the language is still accessible. A full evidential system would be extremely difficult for an English speaker to master, because not only would you have to report with every clause what your source of knowledge was, but if you were talking about other people, you'd have to keep track of what their source of knowledge was for every clause too! That's why the Chinese have such difficulty we he / she: it's not the concept, which is easy enough, but training oneself to keep track of something that one grew up ignoring. (Though it doesn't help that they are homonyms with a Mandarin accent!)

We effectively have two evidentials here. Remember, there is no indirect speech in Na'vi. So in effect 'san ... sìk' function as a hearsay/reported-speech evidential. <ats> could then be the inferential evidential. If grammatically required in some constructions, it could be quite interesting.



msg=106514 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:13:22 | u=1244

Re: the evidential at last

Eight

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5001.msg106502#msg106502 date=1266627759]
So, "you must want to see this" catches the flavor, though it sounds just a bit off to me. 
[/quote]
That sounds good to me actually. Nice thinking.

[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg106505#msg106505 date=1266627914]
A lot of Na'vi is like this: something exotic, but just a bit of it, so that the language is still accessible. A full evidential system would be extremely difficult for an English speaker to master, because not only would you have to report with every clause what your source of knowledge was, but if you were talking about other people, you'd have to keep track of what their source of knowledge was for every clause too!
[/quote]
I'm not so concerned with employing evidentials in Na'vi (I think people would be fine with that), more so in producing half decent translations back in English. But my thinking comes from having no experience in using them, only from grammatical knowledge of their existence. Does it cause many problems going back and forth between English and the real world languages that use them?



msg=106523 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:20:31 | u=1244

Re: the evidential at last

Eight

Missed this...

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5001.msg106502#msg106502 date=1266627759]
I don't know how common it is to have the inferential evidential as the sole explicit form.  It seems unusual to me.
[/quote]
Me too.

If you have one evidential... and are essentially using auxiliary verbs to indicate the other meanings, then it would not be unreasonable to suspect that the last evidential form would be dropped over time by speakers, and replaced with a dual verb construct to match the others.

But... I actually think Dr. Frommer will at least give us one more to indicate there is evidence to support what the speaker is saying. No basis for saying that other than gut feeling. :D



msg=106887 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 11:01:34 | u=2873

Re: the evidential at last

Skyinou

[quote author=Frommer]
-ats- : 2nd position infix indicating uncertainty or indirect knowledge: “you might want.” Could be used with “kxawm,” redundantly, for reinforcement.]
[/quote]
The fact that this one goes with "ei" and "äng" make me think that it is more an indication given by the speaker, and not a grammatical rule. Then the translation is up to the reader, taking account of context. The first effect might be to have a more personal (with feeling) message.

non-personal and general statement: "aynga new"
personal feeling of the writer: it seems for him that we want: "aynga natsew" [Changed]



msg=107425 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:45:02 | u=1120

Re: the evidential at last

roger

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5001.msg106887#msg106887 date=1266663694]
The fact that this one goes with "ei" and "äng" make me think that it is more an indication given by the speaker, and not a grammatical rule. Then the translation is up to the reader, taking account of context. The first effect might be to have a more personal (with feeling) message.

non-personal and general statement: "aynga new"
personal feeling of the writer that we may be interested and/or I know/hope you want: "aynga natsew"
[/quote]

You seem to be taking it as meaning certainty, when F says it indicates uncertainty or inference. So I'd either state "ayga nacew cat", because it seems like you want it, or ask "ayga new srak?", where I'm not asking for inference, but for a factual statement that only you can make.



msg=107459 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:00:12 | u=2873

Re: the evidential at last

Skyinou

[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg107425#msg107425 date=1266695102]
You seem to be taking it as meaning certainty, when F says it indicates uncertainty or inference. So I'd either state "ayga nacew cat", because it seems like you want it, or ask "ayga new srak?", where I'm not asking for inference, but for a factual statement that only you can make.
[/quote]
Thanks for the comment, but that's not what I meant. I wanted te say something like what you say.

"po new tsat srak?" When you ask, it is not yet tainted with personal "feelings". But when you answer for him, you can add "ats" "because it seems like" he want.
"Srane, po natsew tsat".

Yes, sorry, I should have written simply:
personal feeling of the writer: it seems for him that we want: "aynga natsew"

[Edit] ma Plump: Of course.. sorry!



msg=107520 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:33:10 | u=631

Re: the evidential at last

Plumps83

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5001.msg107459#msg107459 date=1266696012]
"Srane, po natsew cat".[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
If you decide to use the scientific writing system, could you please be careful to do it consistantly? It's very confusing to read it one way and in another the very next word...
Irayo :)



msg=108240 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 08:31:53 | u=54

Re: the evidential at last

Tiger

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=5001.msg107520#msg107520 date=1266697990]
If you decide to use the scientific writing system, could you please be careful to do it consistantly? It's very confusing to read it one way and in another the very next word...
Irayo :)
[/quote]Oe mllte....  Tsat nìgay oeru ke prrte' lu...



msg=106156 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:55:14 | u=73

OK! we got "OK"

Prrton

[quote=Pawl Frommer to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010 via e-mail]... go with "tam."

As you know, the verb means "suffice, 'do'" as in, "That'll do."

In the film, I think Grace says "Tsun tivam" in response to Norm's (very good, if formal) Na'vi. Or at least that was once going to be in the film. (As I mentioned, I have a hard time keeping track of what wound up in the final version and what got cut.)

So saying "tam" for "OK" seems appropriate. It's easy to say...[/quote]

[desc=OK! Let's use that, my friends!]Tam!, tsat sar ko, ma oeyä eylan![/desc]


____________________



msg=106164 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:58:14 | u=54

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Tiger

Tam, oe tsun tsakem sivi.



msg=106169 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:00:08 | u=1244

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Eight

Tam, tslolam.

Irayo.



msg=106196 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:14:55 | u=430

Re: OK! we got "OK"

TehMightyPirate

Tam.



msg=106241 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:42:32 | u=1550

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Taras

Irayo, ma tsmukan!



msg=106254 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:49:39 | u=1620

Re: OK! we got "OK"

dontbugme

so much new stuff within the last time

irayo nitxan ma prrton sì karyu pawl



msg=106300 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 22:28:28 | u=1485

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Erimeyz

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5007.msg106254#msg106254 date=1266616179]
so much new stuff within the last time
[/quote]

I think Pawl just wants us to enjoy our weekends. :)



msg=106803 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 08:56:20 | u=631

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Plumps83

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=5007.msg106300#msg106300 date=1266618508]
I think Pawl just wants us to enjoy our weekends. :)[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
... and he's doing a pretty good job ;D
Tam, ne tìkangkem...



msg=124286 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 15:27:01 | u=417

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Alìm Tsamsiyu

I know it may be somewhat necroing but it is pertinent to this thread.

"OK" in English can refer to many, many things.  For some of these usages, "tam" / suffice, is... well... [desc=will suffice!]OK[/desc], but other usages, I'm not [desc=does NOT mean "suffice"]OK[/desc] with using "Tam."

It's intended meaning - "(O)All's (K)Correct" lends itself to usages like:
"I'm OK" (I'm all-correct) for when you are uninjured.

As a play on this, before this email was made public, we developed our own word for OK in Skype chat:

"Fra'ey" -- "Fra'u+eyawr" -- All.thing Correct.

Personally, I like this better than "Tam," because it can be used as a more affirmative and positive OK than "that'll do," which conveys a somewhat negative connotation that suggests "I guess that'll just barely work for what I want" (which OK can do, but need not always be so).

My suggestion is that maybe we can use "tam" for OK when it is applicable, and our "fra'ey" construction for other cases where it seems more applicable.

"Seems OK to me." - Tam OR Fra'ey
"Well, that's OK, but..." - Tam
"Don't worry, I'll be OK!" - Fra'ey



msg=124322 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 16:02:17 | u=2873

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Skyinou

I understand your point here, and agree with your way of thinking, but:

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=5007.msg124286#msg124286 date=1267543621]
"Seems OK to me." - Tam OR Fra'ey
"Well, that's OK, but..." - Tam
"Don't worry, I'll be OK!" -Fra'ey
[/quote]

That's just some english idioms here...
So why not taking "tam" as a Na'vi idiom and treat it that way  :P


The use Prrton use here is in the beginning of the sentence or alone:
Tam!, tsat sar ko, ma oeyä eylan!
Where "Tam" goes pretty well in the sense of: enough, we have enough, we know enough



msg=124357 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 16:26:28 | u=417

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Alìm Tsamsiyu

It is English idiom, and that's precisely my purpose for introducing another word.

Those sentences I used aren't really idiomatic when you look at OK as "all-correct."

"Seems all-correct to me" - Straightforward, no obscured meaning.
"Well, that's all-correct, but..." - Here's where "suffice" would have a better meaning, so this one is more idiomatic than the others.
"Don't worry, I'll be all-correct!" - Again, straightforward.

As you see, I was trying to escape the English idiom of one, all-inclusive word for "OK" like "Tam."  English uses it for both suffice and all-correct.  My suggestion is that the Na'vi be less idiomatic in its usage, with a word for each use.



msg=124374 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 16:39:07 | u=1485

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Erimeyz

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=5007.msg124357#msg124357 date=1267547188]
My suggestion is that the Na'vi be less idiomatic in its usage, with a word for each use.
[/quote]

I take your point and agree whole-heartedly.  Personally, I hope for Na'vi in general to be as idiomatic as English (well, almost as, anyway)... but with different idioms.

  - Eri



msg=124459 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 17:55:14 | u=54

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Tiger

There is bound to be some overlap in idioms though.  They are idioms for a reason - that it is such a common phrase that people wanted a short and easy way to say it.



msg=124532 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 18:46:53 | u=417

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Alìm Tsamsiyu

True - It just seemed much less likely, to me, that a word defined to be "suffice" would be used for both usages, and not a word in its own right distinctly for that purpose (like OK is).

Because "tam" is used to mean "suffice," it seemed like there would likely be another word similarly "idiomized" and contracted down (due to excessive use) that would apply to the other meaning that the English "OK" is typically employed for.



msg=125174 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 01:03:04 | u=2873

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Skyinou

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=5007.msg124357#msg124357 date=1267547188]
My suggestion is that the Na'vi be less idiomatic in its usage, with a word for each use.
[/quote]
French has no idiom for something like "ok"*. So you are right, Na'vi could not have one either (or one with some na'vi roots). But I was thinking: now that it's too late, we can just find a way to like it, rather than a way to find it stupid. ;D

*we eventually use "ok", but that's "modern"-french. Not grammaticaly correct.



msg=126139 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 14:24:57 | u=417

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Alìm Tsamsiyu

Yeah, "OK" is the most widely spoken and understood word all across Earth, but that's the Earth.

I suppose, given time, the Na'vi would likely pick up "Okey" from the humans on Pandora, but as you said, they might not even have a word that works like "OK."

With that in mind, I suppose we have to use what words they do have to translate "OK" into something they'd understand (thinking from the mindset of a human explaining "OK" to a Na'vi).

In this way, tam might be the closest word - Maybe not as close as "fra'u eyawr," but I think the purpose would be lost with such a long expression, and the contracted version "fra'ey" probably wouldn't be readily accepted.



msg=128265 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 17:11:43 | u=3552

Re: OK! we got "OK"

tigermind

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5007.msg125174#msg125174 date=1267578184]
French has no idiom for something like "ok"*.

*we eventually use "ok", but that's "modern"-french. Not grammaticaly correct.
[/quote]

what about d'accord?



msg=128562 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 19:29:49 | u=430

Re: OK! we got "OK"

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=5007.msg128265#msg128265 date=1267722703]
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5007.msg125174#msg125174 date=1267578184]
French has no idiom for something like "ok"*.

*we eventually use "ok", but that's "modern"-french. Not grammaticaly correct.
[/quote]

what about d'accord?
[/quote]

I actually thought that was "ok" as well.



msg=128581 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 19:39:13 | u=1627

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Kawazoe

We use OK a lot in french and before that, "bien" (good) was widely used.

[quote=Pawl Frommer to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010 via e-mail]
In the film, I think Grace says "Tsun tivam" in response to Norm's (very good, if formal) Na'vi.
[/quote]

Damn! We got so close to finally know how to write "formal"  ;D



msg=129065 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 23:41:02 | u=2873

Re: OK! we got "OK"

Skyinou

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=5007.msg128265#msg128265 date=1267722703]
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5007.msg125174#msg125174 date=1267578184]
French has no idiom for something like "ok"*.

*we eventually use "ok", but that's "modern"-french. Not grammaticaly correct.
[/quote]

what about d'accord?
[/quote]

I wouldn't translate "d'accord" by "ok", because "d'accord" is used only for one meaning and use of "ok"
When it's used alone as a complete answer by itself. And there, you can also say "agree" I think. (agree = d'accord , basically)
These three can't be translate with "d'accord":
"Seems OK to me." - Tam OR Fra'ey
"Well, that's OK, but..." - Tam
"Don't worry, I'll be OK!" -Fra'ey
and the other way: But: I'm ok =/= Je suis d'accord (I agree) Which could cause some misunderstandings.

"bien" is actually "well", not "good".
And the only shared meanings with "ok" are: "Seems OK to me." => "ça me semble bien", and again, using it alone as a complete answer(or just "it's ok" = "c'est bien" but here we may want to use "bon" = "good" instead, which begin to make things complicated).
"Well, that's OK, but..." => with the negation, we should not use "C'est bien, mais..." for translating that
"Don't worry, I'll be OK!" => you can't translate by "bien" here. You use it for "je vais bien", which is a completely different idiom.



msg=129108 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-05 00:14:08 | u=1120

Re: OK! we got "OK"

roger

"Tam tam" would also seem to be a good translation of a phrase widely found across Africa which is typically translated into French as "doucement", and in English might be 'take care, take it easy, not so fast', etc.



msg=106383 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:12:39 | u=1120

mustn't vs. don't need to

roger

A question came up, I forget where, of whether zene ke / ke zene meant "must not" or "don't need to". Well, we got our answer without asking. (At least, I didn't ask in this email.) Also some new words.

[quote author=Frommer]
Sìltsan nìtxan. Tìng nari nekll.

:[That is, "See below", where he interlaced his answers w my questions, which I'll put in italics. Comments I'm adding now are in brackets.]

[embedded email]

:Did I get this right?

:Hém geyä zégke fkóru livú cá(y)hem a gáru pŕrte' ke lú.

:[this was the Golden Rule]

Very fine. I’ve spelled it zenke, even though it’s pronounced with a velar nasal. And I realize I’ve been inconsistent in doing that, since I’ve spelled lumpe with an m rather than the underlying n. Was probably influenced by English (“impossible,” but “income”). But maybe a little inconsistency isn’t the worst thing in the world.

BTW, zenke and ke zene are semantically distinct:

Nga zenke kivä! ‘You must not go!’

Nga ke zene kivä. ‘It’s not obligatory (OR: it’s not a must) that you go.’

And how many people have adopted the “scientific” transcription? It’s nice to see it, although I don’t think it will ever become as popular as the “official” one. (Notice what happens when you write Tsu’tey in scientific. NOT a good association with that character. <g>)

:and is zegke short for zene ke ?

:This one seems clear:

:lǐ'fyari leNá'vi Ŕrtamì vay sét 'almóg a frá'u zerá'u ta gŕrpogu

:assuming Rrta for "Earth"; confirms grr "root" and past pfv. I assume future pfv would be 'alyog.

Right. As you now know, it’s ‘Rrta.
[/quote]
So, he seems to be accepting <aly> for future subjunctive.

Unfortunately, I think I should leave out the next bit in English for now; it's not of much interest anyway except for the new vocab:

[quote]
maw (ADP-) = after (time)

hìkrr (stress on 1st) = second, very short time

tätxaw (stress in 2nd) = return (intrans.)

Maw hìkrr ayoe tìyätxaw.
[/quote]

I've suggested this before, and it now seems that Frommer would like it: Why not switch to the c, g orthography at this intermediate level? His concern is accessibility, which is why he's requested that the Wiktionary appendix be kept with ts, ng, but that's not really an issue at our level, it is? No more difficult that Fijian spelling!

The Golden Rule, BTW, is called korén a'awve tìruséyä 'awsitég "the first rule of living together" (stress shifted on a'awve, so I can't say which is correct). Don't know if it's supposed to be a traditional Na'vi saying or not.

Some attributive forms, my transcription:

    snúmìnä skxáwg [at least, I can't hear an 'a' after snúmìnä; it might be there], skxáwg asnúmìnä
    skxáwg apxá, apxá skxáwg [this is confirmed in writing]
    skxáwg ayáwne, yáwnea skxawg [answers old questions about the nature of 'beloved']
    pxeskxékeg atxáncan, txáncana pxeskxékeg [pronounced "txansan"]



msg=106394 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:19:56 | u=1317

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

personally I like the "ts" and "ng", I do of course understand the other ways of showing them but I feel it is much nicer to look at when using them. It's all a matter of choice in the end.



msg=106421 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:46:06 | u=1225

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

neotrekkerz

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawntsaheylu link=topic=5025.msg106394#msg106394 date=1266621596]
personally I like the "ts" and "ng", I do of course understand the other ways of showing them but I feel it is much nicer to look at when using them. It's all a matter of choice in the end.
[/quote]

I have to echo this sentiment as it's easier for me to see the phonetics this way, but it really isn't a [desc=there's no c or g in Na'vi so if you see them, then just equate]big deal[/desc].



msg=106442 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:56:19 | u=3552

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

tigermind

Well, some of this is over my head; but at the very least, the info re zenke vs. ke zene answers an important question.

Does that mean there's also *tsunke and *newke?



msg=106458 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:05:46 | u=0

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Swoka Swizaw

Yeah...no! I cannot bring myself to use an ortho' that makes Na'vi look unnatural (but that's just me). I'm glad that "ts, ng" are so popular...



msg=106481 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:47:49 | u=54

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Tiger

I actually prefer the single letter notation, I took it to an extreme when I was trying to make crossword puzzles that combined digraphs into one cell...  Specifically, I assigned unused letters to the ejectives by going with the voiced consonant version of the letter, with q for k since g is already taken.  (IE tx->d, px->b and kx->q.)  But that was more out of necessity than out of desire for a shorthand.

Fko cun clam fì'ut ftue.  Lu gay fwa kin fko nivume 'awve...



msg=106494 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:56:57 | u=1244

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Eight

I can't really see the point of changing - this is not the orthography of Na'vi, so we're not concerned with being faithful to the language - just about representing sounds. Which the current system does fine and we're all used to it.

And think of poor Taronyu - having to go through and change that whole dictionary. :D Maybe wait and see what transcription system Dr. Frommer puts into the "glossary" when it's published, before we make a call on this one.



msg=106496 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:59:24 | u=54

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Tiger

Meh, changing is a simple search & replace w/ the help of regular expressions. :)  It's not really a huge change in notation really for ts->c and ng->g.  I imagine anything published for the masses would use the common form not the scientific form, simply for accessibility to beginners.



msg=106499 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:01:41 | u=1244

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Eight

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=5025.msg106496#msg106496 date=1266627564]
It's not really a huge change in notation really for ts->c and ng->g.  I imagine anything published for the masses would use the common form not the scientific form, simply for accessibility to beginners.
[/quote]
Well even dafter than changing forms, would be having two with such tiny differences. :)

Point taken about the REs. Lol.



msg=107285 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:38:09 | u=3039

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Serena

Ah, very cool

I was the one asking (here in the forum, not by email ;) ) about the negation of zene ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/translationmeaning-of-the-negation-of-zene-must/]here's the thread[/url])

so now it's:
nga zene kivä
  you must go, you have to go
nga zenke kivä
  you mustn't go, you are not allowed to go
nga ke zene kivä
  you don't have to go, you don't need to go


I like that :)



msg=107429 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:48:41 | u=1120

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

roger

[quote author=Nawmaritie link=topic=5025.msg107285#msg107285 date=1266687489]
Ah, very cool

I was the one asking (here in the forum, not by email ;) ) about the negation of zene ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/translationmeaning-of-the-negation-of-zene-must/]here's the thread[/url])

so now it's:
nga zene kivä
  you must go, you have to go
nga zenke kivä
  you mustn't go, you are not allowed to go
nga ke zene kivä
  you don't have to go, you don't need to go


I like that :)
[/quote]

When I said 'email', I meant my email to Frommer that got the above response. I hadn't asked about this in that email, though I may have in the past (I don't remember). But F supplied it anyway, because it was relevant to my translation.



msg=107435 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:51:23 | u=21

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=5025.msg106383#msg106383 date=1266621159]I've suggested this before, and it now seems that Frommer would like it: Why not switch to the c, g orthography at this intermediate level?[/quote]

Three months ago I would have agreed 100%.  Right now it seems like a really bad idea.  Either all our information in Na'vi should use the c/g orthography, or none should.  Switching to c/g isn't advanced — the switch is, as you say, trivial — it's merely annoying to someone used to reading Na'vi in the ts/ng way, with no significant benefit resulting from that irritation.



msg=107953 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 01:40:19 | u=73

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5025.msg107435#msg107435 date=1266695483]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5025.msg106383#msg106383 date=1266621159]I've suggested this before, and it now seems that Frommer would like it: Why not switch to the c, g orthography at this intermediate level?[/quote]

Three months ago I would have agreed 100%.   Right now it seems like a really bad idea.  Either all our information in Na'vi should use the c/g orthography, or none should.  Switching to c/g isn't advanced — the switch is, as you say, trivial — it's merely annoying to someone used to reading Na'vi in the ts/ng way, with no significant benefit resulting from that irritation.
[/quote]

I AGREE that switching would not only be annoying (for me) but I think that it would (in a dangerously difficult to quantify way) likely "raise the bar" to entry at this point for beginners. K. Pawl is right. Cu'tey is an abomination from the point of view of the uninitiated. It is easier to type than Tsu'tey, by just a touch, but I DON'T LIKE IT. It does not seem helpful in any way when faced with the massive undertaking that is effecting the realization of « 'Ivong Na'vi ». Even the spelling of THAT would change. Am I 100% down with "c" for cóng for 从/從 in pinyin? Yes! Do consider it beneficial in any way to the Na'vi-learning community right now? NO. « KEHE, hrr a1000 (vozam) !!! »



msg=107961 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 01:56:46 | u=3039

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Serena

[quote author=roger link=topic=5025.msg107429#msg107429 date=1266695321]
[quote author=Nawmaritie link=topic=5025.msg107285#msg107285 date=1266687489]
[...]
I was the one asking (here in the forum, not by email ;) ) about the negation of zene ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/translationmeaning-of-the-negation-of-zene-must/]here's the thread[/url])
[...]
[/quote]

When I said 'email', I meant my email to Frommer that got the above response. I hadn't asked about this in that email, though I may have in the past (I don't remember). But F supplied it anyway, because it was relevant to my translation.
[/quote]

I know :) I just added the words in the brackets, because I had the impression that otherwise it sounded like I wrote an eMail regarding that topic. I'm always not sure whether it comes across what I want to say in English, so I tend to add too much stuff ;)



msg=107964 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 01:59:38 | u=631

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=5025.msg107953#msg107953 date=1266716419]
I AGREE that switching would not only be annoying (for me) but I think that it would (in a dangerously difficult to quantify way) likely "raise the bar" to entry at this point for beginners. K. Pawl is right. Cu'tey is an abomination from the point of view of the uninitiated. It is easier to type than Tsu'tey, by just a touch, but I DON'T LIKE IT. It does not seem helpful in any way when faced with the massive undertaking that is effecting the realization of « 'Ivong Na'vi ». Even the spelling of THAT would change. Am I 100% down with "c" for cóng for 从/從 in pinyin? Yes! Do consider it beneficial in any way to the Na'vi-learning community right now? NO. « KEHE, hrr a1000 (vozam) !!! »
[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Another point to consider is the search function...

I use that neat tool a lot - not only here but also at the Canon site of the Learn Na'vi Wiki - it's a great way to find what you're looking for. Just a few moments ago I tried to find the word for "root" and couldn't find it because I typed in ngrr instead of grr
Changing the spelling would mean that one has to think every possible way how a word may be written.
I think most people are used to the 'official' spelling by now - changing it would also confuse a lot of newbies to the side and the language.

Just my 2c



msg=107996 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 02:35:16 | u=1855

Re: mustn't vs. don't need to

tawway

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=5025.msg107964#msg107964 date=1266717578]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=5025.msg107953#msg107953 date=1266716419]
I AGREE that switching would not only be annoying (for me) but I think that it would (in a dangerously difficult to quantify way) likely "raise the bar" to entry at this point for beginners. K. Pawl is right. Cu'tey is an abomination from the point of view of the uninitiated. It is easier to type than Tsu'tey, by just a touch, but I DON'T LIKE IT. It does not seem helpful in any way when faced with the massive undertaking that is effecting the realization of « 'Ivong Na'vi ». Even the spelling of THAT would change. Am I 100% down with "c" for cóng for 从/從 in pinyin? Yes! Do consider it beneficial in any way to the Na'vi-learning community right now? NO. « KEHE, hrr a1000 (vozam) !!! »
[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Another point to consider is the search function...

I use that neat tool a lot - not only here but also at the Canon site of the Learn Na'vi Wiki - it's a great way to find what you're looking for. Just a few moments ago I tried to find the word for "root" and couldn't find it because I typed in ngrr instead of grr
Changing the spelling would mean that one has to think every possible way how a word may be written.
I think most people are used to the 'official' spelling by now - changing it would also confuse a lot of newbies to the side and the language.

Just my 2c

[/quote]

"ts" and "ng" have been used to "romanise" a number of languages and do the job quite well. People will recognize them and get the sounds about right. And that's really the point here isn't it? Easier and more accurate for most people.

It worked for the actors too, didn't it? If it works don't mess with it  :)



msg=107843 | topic=5091 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 00:06:10 | u=21

subject pronoun pro-drop

wm.annis

Karyu Pawl poltxe:

[quote]BTW, subject pronoun pro-drop is good Na'vi style. The rule I've been assuming is that once you establish the identity of the subject, you can drop subsequent subject pronouns until the subject changes, at which point you cycle back to Start. People seem to be doing that fairly aggressively in English, in IMs and texting if not in actual spoken conversation. ("Saw you online and wanted to say hi. Hope everything is fine. Will try to call this week. BTW, Carol finally got in touch with me. Said she's been very busy. Didn't go to India after all. Went to Vegas instead. I can't figure her out. Guess she decided on gambling rather than the guru.")[/quote]



msg=107855 | topic=5091 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 00:15:31 | u=1317

Re: subject pronoun pro-drop

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

This will make translations go faster and make them shorter at the least.



msg=107994 | topic=5091 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 02:34:15 | u=1485

Re: subject pronoun pro-drop

Erimeyz

Make them more fun, too. :)



msg=108816 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 17:45:52 | u=21

Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

wm.annis

Starting a bit more than a week ago Frommer has been copying his email replies to people's Na'vi questions to a few people.  The main Wikipedia article editor gets a copy, I get a copy, Prrton sometimes gets a copy and sometimes a few other people do (many from this forum).

When I get these I dump them into the LearnNavi.org wiki (assuming someone else hasn't already done so).  We've reached a point where I'm going to stop dropping all of Frommer's email into the Canon page in one particular situation — vocabulary lists.  It seems awfully silly to cut-n-paste new words onto one page of the wiki, only to create a dictionary entry on a different page of the same wiki.  Anything I get about grammar, or special elaborations about a particular word usage, will still be treated in the usual way.

I realize this presents a bit of a sourcing problem, but we'll have cross-validation for all new vocab.  Tarnoyu and the main editor of the Wikipedia (who works on the Wiktionary [url=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Na'vi]Na'vi Appendix[/url]) will also be getting copies of vocab-related email.  A word in all three places is sound.  Note that we're still missing some ASG vocab in the LN.org wiki — we've been more focused on new words and examples there, but we're nearly complete with ASG vocab, too.  Note also that not all of us getting email from Frommer edit at the same pace.  The Wiktionary already has the data from recent email that I've not gotten to yet.



msg=109060 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 20:29:50 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

Erimeyz

A great big thank-you is due from the LN community to you, Na'rìghawnu, Ochristi, Roger, Taronyu, Kwami, and everyone else who's been working so diligently to compile and document all the information we've gotten from Pawl.

I do hope that when he sends an email, even if it's just a word list, that someone at least posts it on the forum.

  - Eri



msg=120287 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 09:26:39 | u=401

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

Harìghawnu

Sorry for awaking this thread again ... I was ill last week and wasn't able to check the forum. What William wrote about not giving vocablists any longer in the canon page but only to put the words into the vocabulary seems rational to me too. Unfortunately this will widely disqualify me from contributing to the vocabulary site any longer, since I'm not on Frommer's "mailing-list" and never got any mail from him. All what I contributed to the vocabulary was taken out of the ASG and - exspecially - out of my scrupulous word-by-word-analysis of the corpus-texts and canon-snippets, to find out the words and morphemes, which didn't exist in the vocabulary yet. Any time I got one, I inserted it into the vocabulary. Since I try to do it very diligently, I'm only at the "MND"-vocab at the moment, but there shoud be no single word or morpheme from the texts and snippets preceding it, which isn't in the dictionary and didn't get it's sourcing ... with exeption of Jake's script (which I didn't include at all at the moment) and some words still to discuss and marked red in my personal analyzing-papers.

Well ... since at least our leading Na'viists seem to get Frommer's mails, it's up to you to keep us updated with words, which weren't accessible to the rest of us otherwise. Thank you all for your engagement!



msg=120728 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 17:12:36 | u=21

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

wm.annis

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=5129.msg120287#msg120287 date=1267349199]Unfortunately this will widely disqualify me from contributing to the vocabulary site any longer, since I'm not on Frommer's "mailing-list" and never got any mail from him.[/quote]

No, no, don't go!

First of all, I make typos.  Second, as long as Karyu Pawl continues to give us examples of Na'vi, as he did just last week for the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#Good_Morning_America]Good Morning America[/url] show, getting examples into the dictionary is still a valuable thing.  Frommer was appreciative of that aspect of the LN.org wiki vocabulary page.



msg=120756 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 17:24:16 | u=2788

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=5129.msg109060#msg109060 date=1266784190]
I do hope that when he sends an email, even if it's just a word list, that someone at least posts it on the forum.
[/quote]

I strongly second this. The known vocabulary is now so large that poring over a dictionary (page) to find out about new words is not really an option. I wish the recent list of verbs had been posted in its entirety somewhere, which would have saved me from doing just that... ;)



msg=121291 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 20:53:31 | u=3820

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

mjcarrier

Yes while I see not posting everything on the canon page on the wiki at least post it somewhere. I saw this happen with the tokien language groups, information in a few hands deciding what to give and how. This caused a lot of arguments that I just don't want to see here. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying those who get the emails are being mean or selfish. But some people like to see the new stuff not have to search for it.

So this is what I gleaned were the new verbs.

'awstengyem ~ join (two things together)
'ärìp ~ move (something)
'em ~ cook
'i'a ~ end, conclude
fkxake ~ succeed
frìp ~ bite
ftem ~ pass by (something)
fwew ~ look for, seek, search
hangham ~ laugh

hawl ~ prepare

kä'ärìp ~ push

kllfro' ~ be responsible

kllkä ~ descend

latsi ~ keep up with someone

lek ~ heed, obey

len ~ happen, occur

lew ~ cover

lìm ~  far, be far

muntxa si ~ mate (with someone)
niä ~ grab

nong ~ follow, proceed after

pate ~ get to a place, arrive

pähem ~ arrive

piak si ~ open

pxor ~ explode

salew ~ proceed, go

sar ~ use
sleyku ~ produce
sngap ~ sting
sop ~ travel
spä ~ jump
speng ~ restore
spule ~ propel
srese'a ~ prophetize
steyki ~ anger, make someone angry
sti ~ angry, be angry
sto ~ refuse (to do something)
sung ~ add
syep ~ trap
tatep ~ lose
tätxaw ~ return (intransitive)
tì'awn si ~ camp
tìkangkem si ~ work
tìng tseng ~ back down, lit. give place
tìsraw seyki ~ hurt (someone or something)
tìsraw si ~ hurt, be painful
tsaheyl si ~ bond with, establish a neural connection
tsap'alute si ~ apologize
tsawl slu ~ grow
tsngawvìk ~ cry, weep
tsre'i ~ throw
tstu si ~ close
tsunslu ~ may, be possible
tsurokx ~ rest
win säpi ~ hurry
win si ~ rush something, make somthing fast
wem ~ fight
yän ~ fasten, tie down
yem ~ put place

There could be mistakes and duplications of previously known verbs.



msg=121526 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 22:07:22 | u=1485

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

Erimeyz

mj, thanks for the list!  This will be helpful to a bunch of people.  Lance did [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/my-dictionary/msg110244/#msg110244]something similar recently[/url].  The two of you may want to cross-check each others' work.

Also, you may want to cross-check Wiktionary against the LN Wiki.  As it turns out, it's not too hard to find out what got added to each of them recently, since the wikis keep complete revision histories.  I think I've found the points in time at which William started adding undocumented words to the LN Wiki (22:58, 22 February 2010) and Kwami started adding undocumented words to Wiktionary (20:37, 21 February 2010).  So the following links will show you all the changes since then, which will (I'm assuming) include all the new words:

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Vocabulary&diff=1521&oldid=1413]Diff for Learn Na'vi Wiki Vocabulary page[/url]

[url=http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Appendix:Na'vi&diff=8500833&oldid=8461614]Diff for Wiktionary Na'vi Appendix[/url]

Unfortunately, in addition to new entries, the diffs will also show all the edits to old entries, so you'll still have to wade through a bunch of extra stuff.  But if anyone really wants to see what's new, in lieu of seeing the actual emails from Frommer, this may be one way to do it.

  - Eri



msg=121552 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 22:14:57 | u=3552

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

tigermind

Irayo, ma mj!  By any chance, do we know if kllkä is transitive/intransitive?

i.e., "The ikran descended" vs. "He descended the ladder"



msg=121661 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 22:47:42 | u=2788

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=5129.msg121552#msg121552 date=1267395297]
Irayo, ma mj!  By any chance, do we know if kllkä is transitive/intransitive?

i.e., "The ikran descended" vs. "He descended the ladder"
[/quote]

"Ground-go". I'd expect it to be intransitive, and any tool used to carry out the action to be identified with fa:

Ikran kllkamä

Po kllkamä vulfa



msg=121672 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 22:53:07 | u=3552

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

tigermind

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=5129.msg121661#msg121661 date=1267397262]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=5129.msg121552#msg121552 date=1267395297]
Irayo, ma mj!  By any chance, do we know if kllkä is transitive/intransitive?

i.e., "The ikran descended" vs. "He descended the ladder"
[/quote]

"Ground-go". I'd expect it to be intransitive...
[/quote]

Good call; i didn't notice that.  Irayo, ma tsmukan.



msg=121742 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:19:18 | u=3820

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

mjcarrier

Yes I guess one could look at the change log of wiki. But rather difficult to read. Just would think its much easier to post new vocabulary somewhere as people notice it. While I find it fun to discover new words by comparing old and new dictionaries. I think most people don't enjoy doing that :).

Also noticed a few verbs with added definitions:
'efu ~ feel, sense, perceive
eltu si ~ listen, pay attention, quit goofing off
fmi ~ try, attempt
pängkxo ~ chat, converse, have a conversation
pänutìng ~ promise (a thing to someone)
pey ~ wait, wait for
sngä’ ~ begin, start (intransitive)
steftxaw ~ examine, check
tok ~ be at, occupy a spacetxula ~ build, construct
tsranten ~ matter, be of import
zong ~ save, defend


And with a changed definition:
zawng ~ scream
lok ~ approach
mìn ~ turn [was marked a verb now]
txey ~ halt, stop

and
fkarut ~ peel
is a verb not a noun

verbs I missed:
fmal ~ sustain
kavuk si ~ betray
näk ~ drink
oeyktìng ~ explain (why)
pom ~ kiss
sim ~ near, be near
srung si ~ help
tem ~ shoot (intransitive)
toltem ~ shoot (transitive)
tungzup ~ drop
tsä’ ~ squirt
txopu si ~ be afraid
zup ~ fall

spelling change
srew ~ dance


Hope that is it :).



msg=122339 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 12:27:07 | u=401

Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.

Harìghawnu


[quote]Frommer was appreciative of that aspect of the LN.org wiki vocabulary page.[/quote]
Oh, really? Great to know that.

And ... no, I didn't want to say, that I leave the project, but that it's harder for people (like me), who aren't in contact with Frommer at all, to contribute to the dictionary, if his mails (or parts of them) aren't published any longer. Besides that: If Frommer appreciates the sourcing ... how will this be done now, if (in case of wordlists) the sources aren't published any longer? Will the new words get an "► (Frommer in an email known to some people)." instead of the usual link to the published source?





msg=109623 | topic=5180 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 08:22:07 | u=1

MOVED: Na'vi Scrabble!

Seabass

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=9]Your Projects / Other Resources[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=5179.0[/iurl]



msg=109624 | topic=5181 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 08:22:46 | u=1

MOVED: Mother Jones

Seabass

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=9]Your Projects / Other Resources[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=4594.0[/iurl]



msg=111474 | topic=5262 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 13:25:06 | u=21

MOVED: Na'vi translator!

wm.annis

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=9]Your Projects / Other Resources[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=5258.0[/iurl]



msg=111932 | topic=5277 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 18:10:58 | u=54

MOVED: Transmission Received

omängum fra'uti

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=5246.0[/iurl]



msg=112625 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 00:06:07 | u=73

« Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Prrton


[quote=Prrton]

...Is this correct? :

  Oeru ke tsun livam ke'u lor to Eywa'evengä na'ring a lew säpoli fa [desc=moss]prrwll[/desc],
  kxawm mungwrr fìkifkey a lew säpìyevi fa fpom sì lì'fya leNa'vi.

[quote=K. Pawl]Very fine.

Only one suggestion...

The verb säpìyevi: Why subjunctive? Why not simply säpìyi?

Argument in favor of the subjunctive: It's a world that MIGHT soon cover itself . . . etc.

Arguments in favor of the indicative:

(1) Your translation seems to indicate you're thinking of a world that WILL soon cover itself . . . etc.
(2) I like the clear parallelism between säpoli and säpìyi.
(3) The indicative is one syllable shorter.

So I'm somewhat more in favor of the indicative, säpìyi. But I think you could justify either version. Your call...

Notes:

Oeri/oeru is often a toss-up. With "lam," though, I think the dative is marginally better, since it's natural for "seem" to take the dative:

    "It seems to me . . . " But you could make a case for oeri as well.

The syntax of comparatives is perhaps a bit unusual.

To say "A is adj-er than B," you simply say "A to B lu adj."

Example: Po to oe lu sìltsan. (not "sìltsan nì'ul")

No "comparative degree" of the adjective is used.

Cf. Mandarin:

Ta bi wo hao.[/quote]

[/quote]

Note on notes: For those of you who'll likely be curious... any context-sensitive effect that Altaic word order might have on the superiority of A over B is still being mulled over.  ;)

[spoiler=tìRalpeng]Nothing could be (seem/appear) more beautiful to me than a Pandoran forest that has covered in moss,
except perhaps this world soon covering itself in peaceful well-being and the Na'vi language. [/spoiler]

And. If this example seems "backwards" to you compared to the « A to B » example in the notes, it's probably the semantics of « ke'u » in this context messing with your head. It certainly messed with mine plenty.
_______________________



msg=112646 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 00:31:41 | u=1120

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

roger

I like oeri. "Oeru" seems too European.

Question: is frato "than all", or is it "most"? If "than all", does that mean that to can also be a suffix, A B-to?



msg=112675 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 00:55:01 | u=73

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=5320.msg112646#msg112646 date=1266971501]
I like oeri. "Oeru" seems too European.

Question: is frato "than all", or is it "most"? If "than all", does that mean that to can also be a suffix, A B-to?
[/quote]

I think the oeRI, might be our Japanese accent, though.  ;)

I don't know, but when I hear about the Altaic issue, I'll ask. I would GUESS that « -to » might yield "most". That would be convenient, but « swey » and « 'e'al » lead me to believe that it may not be that simple. Especially « 'e'al »...

What does « A to Ä swey lu » mean? Anything? K.omum nìwotx.  :-\\



msg=112709 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 01:21:45 | u=1120

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

roger

You can't use "worst" or "best" with "than" either. We have other words like that in English. "Unique", for example. "More unique" is like "All people are equal, but some are more equal than others". Or "my most favorite". And F used sìltsan in his example, so I think we can assume that swey isn't intended to be suppletive for the comparative.



msg=112715 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 01:31:36 | u=73

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=5320.msg112709#msg112709 date=1266974505]
You can't use "worst" or "best" with "than" either. We have other words like that in English. "Unique", for example. "More unique" is like "All people are equal, but some are more equal than others". Or "my most favorite". And F used sìltsan in his example, so I think we can assume that swey isn't intended to be suppletive for the comparative.
[/quote]

I realize it's not intended, but I'm curious as to the exact derivation and to know if ALL of the adjectives have "irregular" forms for the superlative (pos/neg). In order to "resolve" it for myself, I've been also thinking of « swey » as "optimal", but what are « lor, sevin, kawng, snumina, apxa, & lehrrap » in the superlative. That's actually what I want to know.



msg=112718 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 01:34:44 | u=1120

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

roger

Tsole’a syeptutet atsawl frato mìsìrey.

"(and we) saw the biggest Trapper I've ever seen"  (lit., "big(ger) than every(thing) in (my) life")

It's not unusual for a language to lack special superlative forms. For Na'vi we don't yet know, of course.



msg=112725 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 01:37:48 | u=1485

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Erimeyz

[quote author=roger link=topic=5320.msg112718#msg112718 date=1266975284]
For Na'vi we don't yet know, of course.
[/quote]
I'm getting that on a bumper sticker.



msg=112804 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 03:01:32 | u=631

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I was waiting for that information :)
Thanks for sharing!



msg=113102 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 09:53:58 | u=2873

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Skyinou

[quote author=roger link=topic=5320.msg112718#msg112718 date=1266975284]
For Na'vi we don't yet know, of course.
[/quote]
I have two questions. I quoted this to say I know there is probably not a certain answer, but thinking is good for the brain  ;D

- About " 'awve", isn't this kind of superlative?
" 'aw" being not an adjective is a problem (but numbers act like adjectives) and it's probably more an exception than a rule, as many languages have special words for "first, second, etc..."

- Can we use the superlative, if it exists, alone? If someone ask our great Karyu about superlative, maybe he can ask about this too?
The best singer. // The best.
Irayo!

But as Roger said, it is possible to not have superlative,
And don't you find it more beautiful? Having to make good comparison and not just saying "the most" of something.



msg=113877 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 18:36:05 | u=54

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Tiger

Despite "First" in English using a superlative looking ending, it is in fact an ordinal and not a superlative.  Superlative implies there is others of a certain class of something, but the superlative is declaring something is the most of that.  First isn't the "Most one" because there aren't degrees of being one.



msg=116849 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:32:19 | u=73

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=5320.msg113877#msg113877 date=1267036565]
Despite "First" in English using a superlative looking ending, it is in fact an ordinal and not a superlative.  Superlative implies there is others of a certain class of something, but the superlative is declaring something is the most of that.  First isn't the "Most one" because there aren't degrees of being one.
[/quote]

But, Tsmukan Skyinou is correct that "first" or "number one" is often used to form the superlative. That's the way it works in Japanese. You just stick 一番 (ichi-ban = "number 1") in front of the adjective and that's the superlative.

大きい家、ōkii ie, "a/the big house"
一番大きい家、ichi-ban ōkii ie, "the biggest house"



msg=116862 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:50:46 | u=54

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Tiger

Ke lu oe fwa ke mllte...  But we also know that Karyu Pawl did not draw on Japanese directly as part of his influences.  I'm sure something similar exists in other languages too.  We do also have specific superlative words at this point as well.  That doesn't mean they aren't exceptions, but we don't have a whole lot of examples to draw on.

The question I was responding to wasn't if 'awve could be used to form a superlative, it was if it was a superlative, which I still hold that it is not.



msg=123758 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 05:31:34 | u=73

Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=5320.msg116862#msg116862 date=1267170646]

The question I was responding to wasn't if 'awve could be used to form a superlative, it was if it was a superlative, which I still hold that it is not.
[/quote]

[desc=Also agreed.]Tsat nìteng mllte.[/desc]



msg=112829 | topic=5333 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 03:27:32 | u=1

[READ ME] Post only *OFFICIAL* updates from Paul Frommer here

Seabass

This section of the forum is to share communications with [desc=Paul Frommer]Karyu Pawl[/desc] (or other news sources that provide insight into new aspects of the language).

Have a look at [iurl=http://forum.learnnavi.org/your-projects-other-resources/]Projects/Other Resources[/iurl] if you found a project or tool. Thanks~



msg=116871 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 08:10:37 | u=73

Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Prrton

There are egregious errors in the English in the PDF portion of this packet. I'm sorry. It was written at like 2:00 AM some morning that I no longer remember on fewer brain cells than were necessary to complete it properly. Oeru txoa livu.

I will never have time to code this up in HTML, but if anyone wants to do that and post it here (or more likely in the corpus somewhere), feel free.  ;) Many thanks to Seabass for dealing with the large .MP3 file. Run nìneäo.

Trr lefpom, ke ma Amerika nì'aw, slä nìteng ma Kifkey nìwotx!  ;D

'Ivong Na'vi!

================
[html][/html]



msg=116922 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 09:02:02 | u=1120

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

roger

Hey, thanks!

BTW, he does say that maw does not cause lenition.

I'm not surprised by ayoe. I'm more surprised by ruseyä. In ayoe, the "ayo" behaves like VCV, with the y being the onset of a syllable. In ruseyä, the "eyä" behaves like VV, with the y being the coda of a syllable. But AFAIR Frommer said Na'vi does not have this contrast.



msg=117027 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 11:23:09 | u=631

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing! I love Karyu Pawl speak! tewti! fìtìwin!!!  :o

Concerning the .pdf ... Is snumina correct? I thought it was snumìna...



msg=117064 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 12:04:43 | u=3039

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Serena

Thank you very much!


[quote author=pdf]Lì’fyari leNa’vi ’Rrtamì, vay set ’almong a fra’u zera’u ta ngrrpongu.[/quote]

Do I see this correctly that <am> + <ol> --> <alm>  is now confirmed?
(I apologize, if it was already)




msg=117078 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 12:15:24 | u=984

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

okrìsti

Very well done and nice transcription, and new items for my place of honor in my folder. :)
His pronunciation rules. :)



msg=117505 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 17:23:59 | u=1257

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Talis

Irayo! :)


But why is the .mp3 just at the centre-speaker?
The online-version is different, it sounds like at least stereo...
Is it an error only in my system, or is there anyone out there hearing the message just at the centre-speaker, too?  :-\\



msg=117523 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 17:31:35 | u=54

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Tiger

Try a different MP3 player, or turn off surround in the one you are using?  MP3 files don't typically define more than two channels (Left and right), and if they are the same, something trying to process it for surround w/ pro logic or whatever will naturally send the result to the center speaker.



msg=117584 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 18:11:46 | u=73

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=5504.msg117027#msg117027 date=1267183389]
[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing! I love Karyu Pawl speak! tewti! fìtìwin!!!  :o

Concerning the .pdf ... Is snumina correct? I thought it was snumìna...

[/quote]

SNUmìna. You are correct that it should be « ì » not « i ». The stress in pronunciation falls on the « SNU- »

[desc=I also seems to me that my Na'vi is not so great in the middle of the night either.]Nìteng, leram oer fwa oeyä lì'fya leNa'vi kop ke lu fìtxan txantsan nìkxamtxon.[/desc]  ;)



msg=117667 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 18:54:43 | u=1485

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Erimeyz

[quote author=roger link=topic=5504.msg116922#msg116922 date=1267174922]
But AFAIR Frommer said Na'vi does not have this contrast.
[/quote]

I recall this being said, but I don't recall it being said by Frommer.  I looked for it recently and couldn't find it.

  - Eri



msg=117695 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:10:30 | u=1485

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Erimeyz

Thank you to Paul, Prrton, and everyone else for sharing this - especially the audio.  It's a sheer delight to listen to Pawl nìNavi.

I really liked hearing the new word nìwin'it quickly-bit "a little quickly", i.e. not as quickly as nìwin.  Although just from the audio it almost sounds like *nìwini'it, but I don't think that's what he was saying (listen for yourself - 00:13 and 00:56).

  - Eri



msg=117707 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:18:11 | u=2788

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=5504.msg117695#msg117695 date=1267211430]
I really liked hearing the new word nìwin'it quickly-bit "a little quickly", i.e. not as quickly as nìwin.  Although just from the audio it almost sounds like *nìwini'it, but I don't think that's what he was saying (listen for yourself - 00:13 and 00:56).
[/quote]

I took it as nìwin nì'it myself.



msg=117709 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:19:24 | u=1120

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

roger

[quote author=Nawmaritie link=topic=5504.msg117064#msg117064 date=1267185883]
Do I see this correctly that <am> + <ol> --> <alm>  is now confirmed?
[/quote]

Frommer has confirmed this and implied the rest are regular. I posted that somewhere on the corpus page. I'd asked "[this] confirms grr "root" and past pfv. I assume future pfv  would be 'alyog." To which he replied, "Right."



msg=117714 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:20:51 | u=1485

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Erimeyz

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=5504.msg117707#msg117707 date=1267211891]
I took it as nìwin nì'it myself.
[/quote]

Ah, yes.  And right you probably are.

  - Eri



msg=117717 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:22:18 | u=54

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Tiger

Also worth noting that kì'ong is "Slow" and not a type of fruit or vegetable.  And nìk'ong is the adverb form "Slowly".



msg=118542 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 04:03:15 | u=1643

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Rain

Irayo ma Prrton, ma Karyu Pawl! It helps immensely with my pronounciation. Especially when it is first said slowly, then repreated quickly.



msg=118574 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 04:53:24 | u=73

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Prrton

[quote author=Rain link=topic=5504.msg118542#msg118542 date=1267243395]
Irayo ma Prrton, ma Karyu Pawl! It helps immensely with my pronounciation. Especially when it is first said slowly, then repreated quickly.
[/quote]

Frakrr nìmeuia, ma tsmuk!  ;D



msg=118610 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 06:44:46 | u=1225

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

neotrekkerz

We had a possible question a while ago for the next email to Karyu Pawl regarding what happens, pronunciation-wise, when the attributive marker -a- encounters a consonant such that a [desc=Do you pronounce it as "a then consonant," or as a diphthong]diphthong is created[/desc].  Well, listening from 3:10 to 3:12 skxawng ayawne, it appears you pronounce it as a diphthong.  So we can scratch that off the list.



msg=118625 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 07:03:37 | u=1120

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

roger

Not so fast! In "ayoe" it instead behaves as VCV. When should it be VV, and when VCV?



msg=118633 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 07:22:49 | u=1225

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

neotrekkerz

Ayoe is a plural form, I was not trying/meaning to imply pronunciation rules for plurals, only for -a- pertaining to adjectives.



msg=118642 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 07:47:42 | u=1120

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

roger

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=5504.msg118633#msg118633 date=1267255369]
Ayoe is a plural form, I was not trying/meaning to imply pronunciation rules for plurals, only for -a- pertaining to adjectives.
[/quote]

Sure, but why attribs if not plurals? That's still a question to ask:  if this is correct, then the letters y and w would appear to each stand for two different phonemes.



msg=118648 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 08:03:57 | u=1225

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

neotrekkerz

Definitely, and personally I think it would be very cool if they did. 



msg=118840 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 12:38:13 | u=1257

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Talis

[quote]Try a different MP3 player, or turn off surround in the one you are using?  MP3 files don't typically define more than two channels (Left and right), and if they are the same, something trying to process it for surround w/ pro logic or whatever will naturally send the result to the center speaker.[/quote]

I don't use something like a software-sorround-decoder and it's equal which player I'm using...
it seems to me that it's just because the file is mono... I turned it in stereo and now it works correctly. ^^



msg=119905 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 01:25:41 | u=631

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Can you confirm the vocab vor "slow" / "slowly" again as kì'ong / nìk'ong?



msg=120107 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 03:46:06 | u=1485

Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)

Erimeyz

In Prrton's notes in the pdf, he says:

[quote author=Prrton]
Txon’ong is the word I came up with for “evening”. “Morning” remains undefined/undisclosed.  Honestly, I don’t think it exists yet, so please go comment on the “Time on Earth in Na’vi” proposal in Intermediate.
[/quote]
That thread is closed, so [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/idiom-suggestion-morning/]I started a new one[/url] with my ideas for "morning".

  - Eri



msg=119060 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 16:03:56 | u=5138

Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Plltxeyu

Brothers and sisters,

I know I'm kind of new to this, but even I know that Na'Vi has over 1000 words. Very impressive for such a young language. However there are still words we don't have a translation for.
(Correct me if I'm wrong) Frommer has announced that he is still working out a deal with
[quote]those who have brought us “Avatar” and the world of Pandora[/quote]
for rights to expand the language to it's fullest extent.

Frommer has said in many interviews that he has created words on a "as need" basis. Instead of waiting and analyzing everything he sends us for insight on new words, why don't we try to help him out. We should collectively come up with a list of words that we think the Na'Vi language needs the most. That way, we can be ready to expand the language as soon as Frommer receives the OK.

Any thoughts?



msg=119237 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 17:59:05 | u=1485

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Erimeyz

It's a good idea!

There's a page on the Learn Na'vi wiki for collecting that kind of information: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Desired_Vocabulary]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Desired_Vocabulary[/url] .  Check it out and see if it's the kind of thing you're contemplating.

Also, there's [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/]a forum thread[/url] for collecting other types of information we'd like Frommer to supply besides just vocabulary.

  - Eri





msg=119286 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 18:26:15 | u=5138

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Plltxeyu

It is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. Irayo for that link.

I have seen the thread that you suggested and that to me seemed more like a list of grammatical questions (which are equally as important) rather than words we want to add to our vocabulary.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but regular viewers cannot edit the wiki page. (Which is a good thing, because if we could it would be chaos.)

Because of that, I think this thread should be for suggesting words to add to that wiki page.
If anyone has ideas for new words that are not on the list below, please post here.

Irayo!

--------
Currently the words on the wiki page are as follows:

remember (possible ’ok si (seyki?) for remind and ’ok säpi for remember; but a transitive root may be easier in the long run — WmAnnis and Prrton)
forget
meet (make acquaintance; go to a meeting)
say (if not plltxe)
vanish, disappear
annoy, irritate, bother
worry
trick, cheat
wake up (txen si/säpi for intransitive, txen seyki for transitive — Prrton)
sit (down)
taste (note "I taste the food" vs. "the food tastes funky")
continue, keep on
pick up (off a surface)
to be born
hide (tr. and intr.)
to confuse (or be confused)
interest, be interesting (be fascinating)
boring, dull
to tire, make tired, be tired, sleepy, etc.
calculate, figure out
verify semantic range of tung (allow, permit, etc.)
ignore
join (a group)
complete, finish (’‹eyk›i’a ?)
suffer, endure, put up with, tolerate
already
to compare
to be sure/confident
to wonder
to joke/tease
to fail/mess up
to plan
to design
to hate/detest/despise
to be surprised (in a good way)
to be shocked (by something perceived as negative)
to forgive
to argue
luck, chance
thing
happy
sad



msg=119427 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 19:39:51 | u=1485

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Erimeyz

Actually, anonymous users can't edit the wiki pages, but anyone can create an account (it's even easier than creating an account on the forum), and anyone can edit the pages after they've created their account.

Regardless, I think posting ideas on this forum thread is a good idea, so that we can discuss them.  The wiki is a good place to store things, the forum is a good place to talk about things.

  - Eri



msg=119439 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 19:46:03 | u=1921

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

pbhead

I think we need words for "little" (as in ketxan, which is what i have been using... (not much))

and..

grey, soft, and head.

so i can change my name to soft, grey fngap head.



msg=119523 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 20:33:07 | u=42

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

omegaorb

yeah, I think a list of words that we need would be a great thing to have, just to give to Frommer to decide what it is he wants to give us. As long as your not trying to make up your own Na'vi words, im fine with this thread being open.



msg=119543 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 20:45:19 | u=21

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

wm.annis

[quote author=pbhead link=topic=5604.msg119439#msg119439 date=1267299963]
I think we need words for "little" (as in ketxan, which is what i have been using... (not much))[/quote]

Why not use hì'i?

We have been promised some color words (during the Good Morning America discussion with him, evidently), so I hesitate to add any to the list until we hear fro Karyu Pawl about those.



msg=119592 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 21:17:35 | u=2873

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Skyinou

Kaltxì,
We need a word for "well done/bravo"



msg=119613 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 21:27:56 | u=1620

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

dontbugme

i think this is a good place to gather not only unknown words but also thoughts/discussions about the real meaning of known or unknown words

e.g.:
i wonder if the na'vi have a word for "translation", not paraphrase ?
did they have the concept of translating before human arrived?
to answer this you would need to know if there other languages or dialects spoken on pandora.
or is there a more general word that might include interpreting gestures, animal voices, ... ?



msg=119664 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 21:56:38 | u=465

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Hysvear

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5604.msg119613#msg119613 date=1267306076]
e.g.:
i wonder if the na'vi have a word for "translation", not paraphrase ?
did they have the concept of translating before human arrived?
to answer this you would need to know if there other languages or dialects spoken on pandora.
or is there a more general word that might include interpreting gestures, animal voices, ... ?
[/quote]

Translate also means to interpret, and the word for interpret is ralpeng, so i guess you could use that.  :)



msg=119700 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 22:27:13 | u=1550

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Taras

Kaltxì

I would like to know more colors. Now we have only two colors: blue and yellow. Not necessarily a lot of colors, least the basic only: red, green, black, white etc.

Irayo ;)



msg=119714 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 22:40:12 | u=1620

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

dontbugme

[quote author=Tsway'eion link=topic=5604.msg119664#msg119664 date=1267307798]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5604.msg119613#msg119613 date=1267306076]
e.g.:
i wonder if the na'vi have a word for "translation", not paraphrase ?
did they have the concept of translating before human arrived?
to answer this you would need to know if there other languages or dialects spoken on pandora.
or is there a more general word that might include interpreting gestures, animal voices, ... ?
[/quote]

Translate also means to interpret, and the word for interpret is ralpeng, so i guess you could use that.  :)
[/quote]

i also thought about ralpeng, it comes close but its only 1directional. im shure that its no problem to find a paraphrase for "translation", and that everyone would understand it. maybe there is even no need for this actual word in Na'vi.

i wanted to point out that we should try to ask for concepts instead of clear eqivalents.

if we ask how to describe a specific situation insead of asking for words there would be more space for creativity.
i know that karyu frommer thinks about the actual meaning of words when he creates them, but good questions might be a helpfull inspiration. So it might be a bit easier for him to find the word that fits best to the spirit of the language.

If there is a way to help him, then i think it would be to tell him how we interprete, use and think about the language.



msg=119798 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 23:45:30 | u=1921

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

pbhead

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5604.msg119543#msg119543 date=1267303519]
[quote author=pbhead link=topic=5604.msg119439#msg119439 date=1267299963]
I think we need words for "little" (as in ketxan, which is what i have been using... (not much))[/quote]

Why not use hì'i?


[/quote]

well, I would like to say something like "I know a little navi"... and little in that case is different from small.

small boy and little boy work... but not for something of quantity... like I have a little money vs I have small money.



msg=119911 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 01:30:46 | u=1120

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

roger

nì'it "a little, a bit"



msg=120398 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 13:45:53 | u=5138

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Plltxeyu

So...
Currently the words that we have decided to put on the list are;

[quote]
Kemaweyan:
I would like to know more colors. Now we have only two colors: blue and yellow. Not necessarily a lot of colors, least the basic only: red, green, black, white etc.
[/quote]
[quote]
Skyinou:
We need a word for "well done/bravo"
[/quote]

I definitely agree with 'eylan na'viyä. We should try to convey our ideas in concepts that might prove to be an inspiration to the karyu who inspired us. However, Some ideas probably don't need concepts to go along with them, like colors (pretty straightforward, right?)
Unless! Since we are talking about Pandora after all, and they to have bioluminescent flora and fauna(living things that produce light) Maybe that would change the concept of the colors?

Irayo!



msg=120574 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 15:45:54 | u=1485

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Erimeyz

[quote author=Plltxeyu link=topic=5604.msg120398#msg120398 date=1267364753]
Since we are talking about Pandora after all, and they to have bioluminescent flora and fauna(living things that produce light) Maybe that would change the concept of the colors?
[/quote]
It could, and I hope it does.  I wrote a post on that subject [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg104892/#msg104892]over here[/url].

  - Eri



msg=121731 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:13:44 | u=5138

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Plltxeyu

Excellent post!
I agree entirely, both on colors and the concept of directions that you mentioned.

On another note, how about the concept of food? There is a word for eat yom, but there is no word for food or an adj. to describe something that one finds delicious.

Hmmmmmm...



msg=121753 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:24:26 | u=2788

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Plltxeyu link=topic=5604.msg121731#msg121731 date=1267398824]
On another note, how about the concept of food? There is a word for eat yom, but there is no word for food or an adj. to describe something that one finds delicious.
[/quote]

A general word for "food" would be good, yes. We have wutso dinner, served meal and pxasul fresh, appealing (of food).



msg=121921 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 01:54:55 | u=1120

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

roger

I wonder if sa:yom could be used for "food".



msg=122176 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 07:54:09 | u=1620

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

dontbugme

[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg121921#msg121921 date=1267408495]
I wonder if sa:yom could be used for "food".
[/quote]
if you cant make an ä, it might be better to make an "â"(a+^) instead than an "a:"



msg=122201 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 08:15:54 | u=1120

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

roger

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5604.msg122176#msg122176 date=1267430049]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg121921#msg121921 date=1267408495]
I wonder if sa:yom could be used for "food".
[/quote]
if you cant make an ä, it might be better to make an "â"(a+^) instead than an "a:"
[/quote]
I'm on a borrowed computer and don't have my usual plugins. I just noticed we have ä and ì in the edit window.



msg=123705 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 04:10:44 | u=73

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg122201#msg122201 date=1267431354]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5604.msg122176#msg122176 date=1267430049]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg121921#msg121921 date=1267408495]
I wonder if sa:yom could be used for "food".
[/quote]
if you cant make an ä, it might be better to make an "â"(a+^) instead than an "a:"
[/quote]
I'm on a borrowed computer and don't have my usual plugins. I just noticed we have ä and ì in the edit window.
[/quote]

Did your computer, in fact, melt?  :'(

We just got säfpìl for "idea" so säyom doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility, but it seems unlikely to me that there would not be one or more roots for plain ol' "food". Also, sä- seems to have a bit of a causative/agent thing going on. I guess that food can "enable" one to/ be a "vehicle" for eating, but hmmm...



msg=123802 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 06:34:14 | u=1120

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

roger

No, but the rattling was so loud I couldn't hear myself think. Turns out it's mounted directly to the motherboard with no access panel, so nearly everything has to be disassembled to get to it. And there there's no part no. to order a new one, assuming I figure out how to pry it off.

Yeah, säyom isn't very agentive. But then neither is sänume. Though I must admit the justification for "food" is worse than for "idea" or "instruction"; säyom would perhaps more likely be "appetite" or "hunger", the abstraction that makes you eat. Perhaps tìyom could be used for both "food" and "meal", like "good eats" in English.



msg=125196 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 01:40:52 | u=73

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg123802#msg123802 date=1267511654]
No, but the rattling was so loud I couldn't hear myself think. Turns out it's mounted directly to the motherboard with no access panel, so nearly everything has to be disassembled to get to it. And there there's no part no. to order a new one, assuming I figure out how to pry it off.

Yeah, säyom isn't very agentive. But then neither is sänume. Though I must admit the justification for "food" is worse than for "idea" or "instruction"; säyom would perhaps more likely be "appetite" or "hunger", the abstraction that makes you eat. Perhaps tìyom could be used for both "food" and "meal", like "good eats" in English.
[/quote]

Tìyom sounds like "consumption" to me and that it could be extrapolated even to something along the lines of [desc=a bodily disease of consumption/withering]säspxin letìyom tokxä[/desc] or säspxin tìyomä letokx.



msg=125395 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 04:15:54 | u=21

Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon

wm.annis

Everyone might find this interesting: [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/information-please-read/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/information-please-read/[/url]



msg=121329 | topic=5690 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 21:05:21 | u=54

MOVED: more words?

omängum fra'uti

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=5684.0[/iurl]



msg=123484 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 00:22:55 | u=73

Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

Prrton


Just a dribble, but...

[quote=Paul Frommer]Tewti, ma Prrton! Txantsana tìkangkem, txantsana aysäfpìl.

[As you can guess, säfpìl = idea, thought -- sä.FPÌL]

Lu awngar aytele apxay a teri sa'u pivlltxe...

« Teri » does not cause lenition. "Sa'u" is a short plural (short for aysa'u, of course): Literally: We have many matters that (we) may speak about THEM (or: THOSE THINGS)--i.e., we have a lot to talk about.

For the equivalent of "isn't that true?" "¿verdad?" "n'est-ce pas?" etc. let's go with "kefya [ke.FYA] srak?" or, as an equivalent shorter form, "kefyak?" (Derived, as we discussed, from "ke fìfya srak?")

[/quote]

  - säfpìl = idea

  - ..., kefya srak? or just ..., kefyak? = ..., isn't it? ..., right?

  - sa'u (short plural) = those things

'Ivong Na'vi!



msg=123510 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 00:41:04 | u=1550

Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

Taras

Txantsana fmawn, irayo ;)



msg=123590 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 01:47:12 | u=1317

Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Every little bit helps.  :D



msg=123904 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 09:10:50 | u=2788

Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

Lance R. Casey

[quote=Paul Frommer]"Sa'u" is a short plural (short for aysa'u, of course): Literally: We have many matters that (we) may speak about THEM (or: THOSE THINGS)--i.e., we have a lot to talk about.[/quote]

So there are now no less than three ways to render "those"?

tsahem
tsayhem
(ay)sakem



msg=123918 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 09:24:56 | u=1120

Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

roger

Are all three attested on the same root? I wonder if the difference is that ca- is considered a prefix on -kem, but not in the case of ca'u. Might correspond w stress: in cakem, it is kem that is stressed and takes the plural; in ca'u, it is ca- that is stressed and takes the plural.



msg=123930 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 09:37:49 | u=2788

Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=roger link=topic=5770.msg123918#msg123918 date=1267521896]
Are all three attested on the same root? I wonder if the difference is that ca- is considered a prefix on -kem, but not in the case of ca'u. Might correspond w stress: in cakem, it is kem that is stressed and takes the plural; in ca'u, it is ca- that is stressed and takes the plural.
[/quote]

No, they're not. Where has the stress for tsa'u been given? At least in fì'u, Frommer stresses the ultima.



msg=123960 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 10:12:01 | u=1620

Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

dontbugme

Txantsana fmawn !
:D
thanks for sharing



msg=123987 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 10:31:23 | u=1120

Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

roger

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=5770.msg123930#msg123930 date=1267522669]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5770.msg123918#msg123918 date=1267521896]
Are all three attested on the same root? I wonder if the difference is that ca- is considered a prefix on -kem, but not in the case of ca'u. Might correspond w stress: in cakem, it is kem that is stressed and takes the plural; in ca'u, it is ca- that is stressed and takes the plural.
[/quote]
No, they're not. Where has the stress for tsa'u been given? At least in , Frommer stresses the ultima.
[/quote]

I'm just speculating.

Where do we have the stress of fì'u attested, other than it contracting to fu-?



msg=124104 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 12:04:41 | u=2788

Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=roger link=topic=5770.msg123987#msg123987 date=1267525883]
Where do we have the stress of fì'u attested, other than it contracting to fu-?
[/quote]
[url=http://www.archive.org/download/FrommerSpokenNavi/TsunOeNgahuPivngkxoAFuOeruPrrteLu.mp3]Tsun oe ngahu pivängkxo a fì'u oeru prrte' lu[/url]



msg=125020 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 23:03:52 | u=1120

Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?

roger

thanks!



msg=125226 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 02:05:42 | u=73

Good Luck with this one!

Prrton


I proposed a non-direct-translation of "Good Luck (with this/that)! with wayward syntax but a good heart and got:

[quote=Paul Frommer]I like it! Just a change in the syntax:

Since si-constructions take subjects in the unmarked (non-ERG.) case and objects in the dative, it would be:

(Fìtxeleri) Ngaru lrrtok! (sivi (Nawma Sa'nok))

For the shorter version, I like:

Lrrtok ngar!

It’s easier to pronounce.

A slightly different version:

Aylrrtok ngar. (with an understood “livu”)

Cf. the all-purpose holiday or celebrational greeting:

Ftxozäri aylrrtok ngaru. (Smiles to you on your celebration. That appeared on JC’s birthday cake several years ago.)

P.[/quote]

So it's:

[whatever needs the luck]-ri/ìri ngaru lrrtok!

  or

[whatever needs the luck]-ri/ìri lrrtok ngar!

  or

[whatever needs the luck]-ri/ìri ngaru lrrtok sivi Nawma Sa'nok! (If the lottery winnings are at stake!)


I felt incredible jealousy when I read the last part and imagined all of those people who must have had a bite of that cake SEVERAL YEARS AGO! Think how FLUENT they could all be today!  :o



msg=126152 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 14:42:11 | u=1921

Re: Good Luck with this one!

pbhead

:o

I want a birthday cake with na'vi on it...

just goes to show how long this language has been in development.



msg=126777 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 20:59:48 | u=417

Re: Good Luck with this one!

Alìm Tsamsiyu

Well - I'm sure many of us are probably already more fluent than most (if not all) of the people at that party (except maybe Frommer, since we do get more time to actually speak it than he does).

Just makes it an even bigger shame that they've all had access to it for that long as well as immediate contact with others who could potentially speak it, but yet now can probably barely say two or three words on average.



msg=128468 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 18:53:50 | u=1225

Re: Good Luck with this one!

neotrekkerz

[quote]
I want a birthday cake with na'vi on it... [/quote]

Just remember, [desc=portal reference]the cake is a lie[/desc]



msg=134245 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-08 15:22:22 | u=430

Re: Good Luck with this one!

TehMightyPirate

Oooh, my birthday is in a few weeks, totally gonna have to get some Na'vi put on my cake.



msg=134405 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-08 16:32:33 | u=1650

Re: Good Luck with this one!

xenro-hachi

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=5838.msg128468#msg128468 date=1267728830]

Just remember, [desc=portal reference]the cake is a lie[/desc]
[/quote]

[desc=Cake]Keyk[/desc] tsleng lu?  :P



msg=131570 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-06 18:48:01 | u=1920

info on duals and vocative

willphase

Some info on use of the dual from Frommer:

[quote=Frommer]
The dual forms are expected with things that naturally come in pairs. So if you’re talking about your eyes, ears, feet, or hands, you should use those forms. “My eyes” is therefore “oeyä menari,” not “oeyä aynari.” (I know a little Hebrew, and I think that’s the case in Modern Hebrew as well.) But what if you wanted to say, “Many eyes were staring at him”? There I’d use the regular plural; “many two eyes” doesn’t make sense. (But I should ask my Israeli friends what happens in that case in Hebrew.)

I agree that to say “I have two cars,” the dual shouldn’t be enforced.
[/quote]

[quote=me]
Q: How many children do you have? (not using dual, because I don't know the answer)

A: I have two.

Q: How old are they? (now are you using the dual for 'they', or can you use the plural?)
[/quote]

[quote=Frommer]
As to pronouns, your hypothetical conversation is right on the beam: Once you’ve established that there are two kids, you should use the dual form.

A useful guideline is this: If it’s natural to say “both” in English, then it’s likely you should use the dual in Na’vi. In the case of your conversation, the last speaker could have said, “How old are they both?” So s/he would probably use “mefo” for “they.”

I myself have trouble remembering to use the dual form when two people are involved, especially in the first person. One thing I’ve found that helps is that if I can substitute “we two” or “the two of us” or “you and I” for “we,” then I know I should use the dual form. Same for the second person forms (“you two”) and third person forms (“those two”).
[/quote]

And, some info on use of vocative from an older email

[quote=Frommer]
As for the inconsistency in using the vocative . . . well, let's just say that consultants like me don't have "creative control," and sometimes a bit of back-fitting is necessary. With the vocative, I've modified the rule so that it's obligatory when you're talking to people (including Eywa!) but optional when talking to animals. I think you get the point. ;-)
[/quote]

Will



msg=131600 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-06 19:12:10 | u=631

Re: info on duals and vocative

Plumps83

[quote author=Will Txankamuse link=topic=6165.msg131570#msg131570 date=1267901281]
Some info on use of the dual from Frommer:

[quote=Frommer]
The dual forms are expected with things that naturally come in pairs. So if you’re talking about your eyes, ears, feet, or hands, you should use those forms. “My eyes” is therefore “oeyä menari,” not “oeyä aynari.” (I know a little Hebrew, and I think that’s the case in Modern Hebrew as well.) But what if you wanted to say, “Many eyes were staring at him”? There I’d use the regular plural; “many two eyes” doesn’t make sense. (But I should ask my Israeli friends what happens in that case in Hebrew.)

I agree that to say “I have two cars,” the dual shouldn’t be enforced.
[/quote][/quote]

[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing. :)
Just to see whether I get that right - the dual (and probably trial as well) is optional with things that doesn't come in pairs naturally (or do I misunderstand "shouldn't be enforced"?). That would mean that you could say either
lu oeru mehunsìp
or
lu oeru munea kunsìp or ... munea ayhunsìp ???



msg=131787 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-06 21:46:04 | u=1920

Re: info on duals and vocative

willphase

I read 'shouldn’t be enforced' meaning that it's valid to use either the dual (me-) or the normal plural (ay-) when pluralising things that don't come naturally in pairs (e.g. the 'two cars' example he gave, you could use either).

When using a numeral as an adjective attached to a noun it would appear that the noun doesn't take the plural e.g when Norm is talking to Grace he doesn't pluralise 'year' but seems to just attach five as an adjective (and also see 'awa tìpawmìri [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Numerals]here[/url]).

so in your example

lu oeru hunsìp (I have gunships, using plural, dropping the ay-)
lu oeru mehunsìp (I have gunships, using the dual)
lu oeru ayhunsìp (I have gunships, using plural)
lu oeru munea kunsìp (I have two gunships)

would all be fine (in my view).

Will



msg=131953 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 00:13:50 | u=1120

Re: info on duals and vocative

roger

[quote author=Will Txankamuse link=topic=6165.msg131787#msg131787 date=1267911964]
I read ... it's valid to use either the dual (me-) or the normal plural (ay-) ... e.g. the 'two cars' example he gave, you could use either).
[/quote]

I doubt that's what he meant. If it's "two cars", or you know it's two cars, I doubt you could use the plural. I think what he meant is that if you say "two cars" you don't need the dual, but can use the singular, as in your example.



msg=132147 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 04:24:03 | u=1485

Re: info on duals and vocative

Erimeyz

Thanks for sharing!



msg=132225 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 06:41:04 | u=73

Re: info on duals and vocative

Prrton

[quote author=Will Txankamuse link=topic=6165.msg131570#msg131570 date=1267901281]

And, some info on use of vocative from an older email

[quote=Frommer]
As for the inconsistency in using the vocative . . . well, let's just say that consultants like me don't have "creative control," and sometimes a bit of back-fitting is necessary. With the vocative, I've modified the rule so that it's obligatory when you're talking to people (including Eywa!) but optional when talking to animals. I think you get the point. ;-)
[/quote]

Will
[/quote]

I'm glad to see this. I thought that the vocative was kxanì with animals. I'm glad that it can be used! Sìltsan leiu nang!



msg=132231 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 06:49:11 | u=54

Re: info on duals and vocative

Tiger

Now I just need to find out where the line is between sevin and lor...

For example is a nantang sevin or lor?  What about a kxetse?  A kxetse nangangä?  How about a plant, is that sevin or lor?  What if it's one of the weird Pandoran plants that has a nervous system and reacts to the environment in an animal like way?  Etc etc.



msg=132244 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 07:39:03 | u=1120

Re: info on duals and vocative

roger

I imagine it's how the person means "pretty". When we say an animal is beautiful, or a landscape, we don't mean it in the same way as a person being beautiful. I think that's prob'ly the diff, not the animacy of the thing. If you said a person was "lor", you'd mean that they're beautiful the way you think a horse is beautiful, but not physically attractive. (Well, unless you're into horses, but we won't go there.)



msg=132332 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 10:20:56 | u=54

Re: info on duals and vocative

Tiger

The physically attractive comparison of a horse vs a person doesn't work though, because Grace uses "sevin" on the Na'vi children, and you would hope there is also not the same sort of attraction there.  So if Grace can find that sort of beauty in Na'vi children, why can't someone find that sort of beauty in, say, an animal?

It could still be a semantic difference though, for example "sevin" could be something like "Radiant".



msg=132367 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 10:53:03 | u=1120

Re: info on duals and vocative

roger

But we do the same thing in English. Although we deny it, we do speak of children being beautiful the way we speak of adults, or we'll say "she's going to be beautiful when she grows up", or "he's gonna be a real heart-breaker", which is just a way of getting around the taboo. Or "my you're getting handsome/pretty". And we dress up our children to be handsome/beautiful too, even when they're quite young. We even have beauty pageants for little girls, though granted some people do find that rather gross. (Consider the recent controversy in Rio.) By "physically attractive" I don't mean "sexy", but we do see children as beautiful as fellow human beings in a way we don't see animals or flowers as beautiful. Women will also speak of other women as beautiful (my mom does it constantly), and men sometimes admit that other men are handsome, but that doesn't mean they're gay (at least for women; most straight men are too phobic to be comfortable saying s.t. like that). Why else would little boys dislike being called "pretty", or would it be an insult to call a little girl "handsome"? "Handsome" is actually a good parallel to "sevin": it's almost restricted in use for male people. We even speak of newborns as "beautiful" when by all objective criteria they're pretty disgusting looking. (Sorry, I've never seen a baby before about 6 mos. that was cute. But to their parents they're gorgeous.)

Certainly a word for human/Na'vi beauty could be lexicalized to be required for all people.

Or, if calling a child pretty sets off too many alarms, consider that it's Grace, and that her Na'vi is pretty bad.

But I could imagine that if you really anthropomorphize an animal, you might use "sevin". I know people who would do that with their dogs! If you dress it up in a suit, feed it at the dinner table, and teach it to walk on its hind legs, you'd probably call it "sevin". I could imagine maybe saying that for a pa'li or esp. your ikran. But I expect that would be a very marked exception, and a wild one would be "lor". Unless I'm completely misjudging the distinction.



msg=132396 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 11:19:25 | u=54

Re: info on duals and vocative

Tiger

I think at this point we are trying to assign our own views on what the meaning would be...  But the truth is we don't know what the distinction is, except that sevin would not be used to describe a language.



msg=132410 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 11:36:24 | u=1120

Re: info on duals and vocative

roger

In English we distinguish male from female/neuter; Na'vi might divide things differently. Agreed, it would be nice to get this spelled out.



msg=132221 | topic=6190 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 06:24:28 | u=73

MOVED: "going to"

Prrton

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=117]Vocabulary Expansion[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=6123.0[/iurl]



msg=132230 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 06:48:56 | u=73

luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Prrton

[quote=Paul Frommer]Lu mengeyä kelku na'rìngä luke kxu atxan a fì'u fmawn asìltsan lu nìngay. Nìlaw Nawma Sa'nok lrrtok soli mengar.

ta P.

[kxu = harm; luke = without (ADP-)][/quote]

Lora "without" (luke tìlatem pamä)




msg=132308 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 09:55:56 | u=1120

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

roger

A couple tidbits in a mostly English email:

  For "write" let's use pamrel si rather than lì'rel si. The former seems more appropriate for an alphabetic orthography.

  I don't have a word for bioluminescent freckle, but I love the idea of using tanhì. Consider it done.
 
And what's been reported as "tomorrow" in the following, though given the context it might mean "upcoming day":

  I'm not going to be much in touch tomorrow, but I hope to be back in communication by Monday, or Tuesday at the latest.

  Trrayri livu nìsìlpey aylrrtok atxan ta Eywa awngaru nìwotx.



msg=132366 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 10:52:03 | u=1550

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Taras

Tewti! Oe nìmew pivawm teri fìlì'u a san luke sìk mì hapxì a san Vocabulary Expansion sìk. Irayo nìtxan.



msg=132625 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 15:34:56 | u=2788

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=roger link=topic=6193.msg132308#msg132308 date=1267955756]
And what's been reported as "tomorrow" in the following, though given the context it might mean "upcoming day":

  I'm not going to be much in touch tomorrow, but I hope to be back in communication by Monday, or Tuesday at the latest.

  Trrayri livu nìsìlpey aylrrtok atxan ta Eywa awngaru nìwotx.

[/quote]

Ah, so the expected symmetry holds! Hopefully it's productive too, so that we can say things like *zìsìtam and *txon'ongay.

And nìsìlpey really intrigues me. We haven't seen an adverbial prefix on a verb before, have we? (excepting the still mysterious nìawnomum)



msg=132639 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 15:44:52 | u=21

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

wm.annis

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=6193.msg132625#msg132625 date=1267976096]And nìsìlpey really intrigues me. We haven't seen an adverbial prefix on a verb before, have we?[/quote]

We have — nìtam.



msg=132674 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 16:08:07 | u=631

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6193.msg132230#msg132230 date=1267944536]
[quote=Paul Frommer]Lu mengeyä kelku na'rìngä luke kxu atxan a fì'u fmawn asìltsan lu nìngay. Nìlaw Nawma Sa'nok lrrtok soli mengar.[/quote][/quote]

[font=Garamond]Do I understand that correctly?
"Your (two) home of the forest is without great harm that is truely good news. Certainly the Great Mother smiled on you (both)."

nìsìlpey ~ hopefully?

Do we know about stress for luke?

I don't quite know how to translate "harm" into German... is it "Unheil", "Schaden", "Nachteil"???



msg=132691 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 16:20:33 | u=2788

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6193.msg132639#msg132639 date=1267976692]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=6193.msg132625#msg132625 date=1267976096]And nìsìlpey really intrigues me. We haven't seen an adverbial prefix on a verb before, have we?[/quote]

We have — nìtam.
[/quote]

Ah, so we have. So it seems to be universal, then.



msg=132906 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 18:15:49 | u=73

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6193.msg132674#msg132674 date=1267978087]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6193.msg132230#msg132230 date=1267944536]
[quote=Paul Frommer]Lu mengeyä kelku na'rìngä luke kxu atxan a fì'u fmawn asìltsan lu nìngay. Nìlaw Nawma Sa'nok lrrtok soli mengar.[/quote][/quote]

[font=Garamond]Do I understand that correctly?
"Your (two) home of the forest is without great harm that is truely good news. Certainly the Great Mother smiled on you (both)."

nìsìlpey ~ hopefully?

Do we know about stress for luke?

I don't quite know how to translate "harm" into German... is it "Unheil", "Schaden", "Nachteil"???

[/quote]

Ma Plumps,

I should explain the context a bit to help with the possible semantic range of «kxu». For slightly complex reasons of timing that I won't explain here I felt that I needed to explain to K. Pawl that (our/my husband's and my) 2nd home in the mountains had been reported to us by neighbors late Friday night as "apparently broken into" and that dealing with the situation might mean that I wouldn't be seeing e-mail at all for a couple of days (especially if the wireless internet equipment had been stolen from the house, which I assumed had been the case). Anyway, quite fortunately, the thief(ves)? appear to only have been interested in cash or jewels. Neither type of thing was in the house. Little damage was done compared to what COULD HAVE happened. I reported this good news to K. Pawl via the internet equipment that is still in the house and functioning. He responded...

Lu mengeyä kelku na'rìngä luke kxu atxan a fì'u fmawn asìltsan lu nìngay. Nìlaw Nawma Sa'nok lrrtok soli mengar.

I translate this idiomatically more or less the same way you did as:

It is truly good news that your home in the forest (did not suffer) a lot of «kxu» (harm/damage/physical distress). Clearly, the Great Mother has smiled on you both.

I don't know the stress for «luke». I haven't asked yet.

I'm assuming that «nìsìlpey» is more or less the same semantic range as "hopefully", yes. ("Hopefully, you'll have a good day tomorrow (while I'm out of touch).")





msg=132937 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 18:29:39 | u=631

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Ma Prrton,

thanks for the clear up ... and I'm sorry to hear about the break-in!
So, it's the German "Schaden" - irayo nìmun ;)



msg=133236 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 21:09:05 | u=1120

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

roger

Ah, but "awngaru" is "us", and plural, not dual or trial. That's why I wasn't so sure of the reading.



msg=137110 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-10 16:01:23 | u=985

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Nyx

Is this luke made from lu and ke? It kind of reminds me of the ke zene vs zenke thing, with ke being added to the end to give a different version of a negative.. I wonder if this is something that we might see more of ^^



msg=138316 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 17:00:05 | u=132

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Taronyu

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6193.msg132674#msg132674 date=1267978087]
Do we know about stress for luke?
[/quote]

Yes: luke.



msg=138386 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 18:00:37 | u=631

Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I feel like Homer Simpson in the Land of Chocolate ;D

Thanks!



msg=135702 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 15:06:11 | u=4

Should have posted this a while ago

zombat

Apologies. Things have been rather crazy with me and posting this keeps slipping my mind:

[quote=Karyu Pawl]
As you know (I hope), I had nothing to do with the "Activist Survival Guide," which was written and published without my knowledge. Many of the so-called Na'vi terms in the body of the book are incorrect/misued. The Na'vi-English Dictionary, however, is actually my work, but it's an early, out-of-date version of the glossary that I never thought was going to be published. Since then I've made some changes, and one word that's been changed is kxener.

At one point the movie people needed some words for Pandoran foods for a certain scene (which didn't make it to the final cut), so I came up with a few terms. It wasn't important to figure out exactly what kinds of foods they were, so I simply glossed the terms as "kind of fruit or vegetable." I think there were about a half-dozen of those. Later, when the scene wasn't used, it seemed a pity to have these perfectly good words with such vague and not-very-useful meanings, so I reassigned all of them. Of the words in the ASG, "kì'ong" (stress on 2nd) now means "slow," and "kxener" (stress on 1st) means . . . smoke.
[/quote]

Kì'ong = Slow
Kxener = Smoke



msg=135740 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 15:40:44 | u=5059

Re: Should have posted this a while ago

KalaKuival

aah! Great news! Now i can actually use these words in real life! Thanks for posting:)



msg=135750 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 15:48:34 | u=1550

Re: Should have posted this a while ago

Taras

Nang! Set oe ìyomum. Irayo ;)



msg=135848 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 17:08:08 | u=1318

Re: Should have posted this a while ago

HTML_Earth

Prrkxentrrkrr: Day time smoke pleasure 8)



msg=135898 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 17:58:35 | u=0

Re: Should have posted this a while ago

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=6349.msg135848#msg135848 date=1268154488]
Prrkxentrrkrr: Day time smoke pleasure  :o
[/quote]

Mid-day/afternoon smoke break, what?



msg=135925 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 18:26:21 | u=1318

Re: Should have posted this a while ago

HTML_Earth

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6349.msg135898#msg135898 date=1268157515]
[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=6349.msg135848#msg135848 date=1268154488]
Prrkxentrrkrr: Day time smoke pleasure  :o
[/quote]

Mid-day/afternoon smoke break, what?
[/quote]

I think I picked the wrong smiley...



msg=136559 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-10 05:43:35 | u=2541

Re: Should have posted this a while ago

Lrrtoksì nìhawng

Txantsan! Now I can quit saying ke nìwin!

But now I've lost my placeholder words for fruit.



msg=136778 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-10 10:15:43 | u=631

Re: Should have posted this a while ago

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing. :)

Does that make nìk'ong = slowly (without the ì) attested as well?

I'm assuming since kxener didn't appear in the verb list but just for clarification, it's the noun "the smoke", kefyak?



msg=138314 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 16:58:38 | u=132

Re: Should have posted this a while ago

Taronyu

Technically:

kxener
'ong

:)



msg=137777 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 03:00:03 | u=1120

all adpositions

roger

Paul has now released the full set of adpositions. Most of them you already know, but there are several new ones. We now also know which cause lenition and which don't.

Those not causing lenition are:

äo  \



msg=137790 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 03:12:46 | u=54

Re: all adpositions

Tiger

Tewti!  Set tsun awnga pivlltxe tsenge a fì'uro tok!
Wow!  Now we can say where we are at!



msg=137792 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 03:18:37 | u=21

Re: all adpositions

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=6430.msg137777#msg137777 date=1268276403]
ro \



msg=137793 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 03:23:52 | u=1627

Re: all adpositions

Kawazoe

EPIC WOOT'NES!

I can't wait to see all of those added to Taronyu's dictionary!



msg=137984 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 10:14:05 | u=132

Re: all adpositions

Taronyu

[quote author=Kawazoe link=topic=6430.msg137793#msg137793 date=1268277832]
I can't wait to see all of those added to Taronyu's dictionary!
[/quote]

Done.



msg=138012 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 10:57:45 | u=631

Re: all adpositions

Plumps83

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6430.msg137792#msg137792 date=1268277517]
[quote author=roger link=topic=6430.msg137777#msg137777 date=1268276403]
ro \



msg=138020 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 11:19:23 | u=132

Re: all adpositions

Taronyu

pa is one of the new words, yes.



msg=138023 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 11:23:46 | u=1120

Re: all adpositions

roger

Note in the NYT article yesterday nemfa was explained as ne mì+fa. I believe that fa is the pa in fäpa.

And the f in fkip looks like it may be the fä.



msg=138285 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 16:37:22 | u=1550

Re: all adpositions

Taras

Tewti! Irayo nìtxan seiyi oe. Mipa aylì'u frakrr oeru prrte' leiu :)



msg=138951 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:15:05 | u=0

Re: all adpositions

Swoka Swizaw

Doesn't ftu lenit? In Taronyu's dictionary, it does.



msg=138956 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:17:36 | u=1120

Re: all adpositions

roger

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6430.msg138951#msg138951 date=1268352905]
Doesn't ftu lenit? In Taronyu's dictionary, it does.
[/quote]

I think we assumed it does because of the behaviour of tsaw --> sat. But that's just irregular, and our guess was wrong. Either that or Frommer made an error here, but he sorted the adp. by whether they lenit or not, so I'd expect him to catch an oversight like that. I'll ask.



msg=138964 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:24:31 | u=2934

Re: all adpositions

fnua atxkxe

I've been wanting a list like this for a while. Will be very useful. Oe lu lefpom :D

At the top it says "the full set adpositions". Will this be all of them or might we get more in the future?



msg=138966 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:26:46 | u=0

Re: all adpositions

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=roger link=topic=6430.msg138956#msg138956 date=1268353056]
I think we assumed it does because of the behaviour of tsaw --> sat. But that's just irregular, and our guess was wrong. Either that or Frommer made an error here, but he sorted the adp. by whether they lenit or not, so I'd expect him to catch an oversight like that. I'll ask.
[/quote]

Good. But, why do so few lenit? Is there a pattern between what does?



msg=138973 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:31:38 | u=1120

Re: all adpositions

roger

[quote author=fnua atxkxe link=topic=6430.msg138964#msg138964 date=1268353471]
At the top it says "the full set adpositions". Will this be all of them or might we get more in the future?
[/quote]

That's all that Frommer's come up with so far. There are suggestions for more we might present to him, but I don't know what he'll do with them.



msg=138979 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:37:30 | u=2934

Re: all adpositions

fnua atxkxe

Irayo, oe tsap'alute, haven't kept up with much of the new stuff recently as I have been busy. That's why I find this list so useful. Makes it easy to memorize.



msg=138981 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:37:59 | u=1120

Re: all adpositions

roger

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6430.msg138966#msg138966 date=1268353606]
Good. But, why do so few lenit? Is there a pattern between what does?
[/quote]

I assume it's just a relic of historical change. Often "core" forms are irregular, so we might expect only basic/highly frequent preps to lenit. (And note that a derivative of a leniting adp. does not itself lenit.) Also, even among the most common adp, there may once have been some conditioning factor that's since been lost, so that only some of them caused the change.

Look at case in English: we only have an oblique in personal pronouns, no longer in nouns or demonstrative PNs, and even among the personal PNs not in "you" or "it".



msg=139400 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 08:47:45 | u=1120

Re: all adpositions

roger

updating the posting w two temporal adverbs derived from these: mawkrr "after, afterwards"; srekrr "before" (& presumably "beforehand")



msg=139408 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 08:54:27 | u=54

Re: all adpositions

Tiger

I presume srekrr (Interesting it's not srehrr) would be used like...

Oe tsakem soli srekrr
I've done that before



msg=139426 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 09:22:30 | u=1120

Re: all adpositions

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6430.msg139408#msg139408 date=1268384067]
I presume srekrr (Interesting it's not srehrr) would be used like...

Oe tsakem soli srekrr
I've done that before
[/quote]

Good catch. That might be a typo or an oversight: I certainly would expect srehrr, now that you've pointed it out.

I can only guess, but I think your e.g. is probly correct.



msg=139518 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 11:26:49 | u=1751

Re: all adpositions

blueme

Can someone enlighten me please as to the precise meaning of ka and kxamlä?

Is ka used in a sense of "walk across the room" or "live across the street?"

Is kxämla "I enter, I walk across, and I come out on the other side" or rather "[desc=i.e. I start and finish inside the place]walk across the room[/desc]?" Maybe both? Also, how literal is the through the middle part?



msg=139527 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 11:37:19 | u=1120

Re: all adpositions

roger

Don't know. Have asked.

If ka is locative rather than lative, maybe it can be compounded for "on the other bank/shore/side".



msg=139528 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 11:37:39 | u=54

Re: all adpositions

Tiger

Kä yey kxamlä perhaps?  (Go straight through the middle)

Not sure on ka, I've been trying to figure that one out as well.  But more head scratching to me is how "Across truth" becomes "Valid".



msg=139533 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 11:45:30 | u=1751

Re: all adpositions

blueme

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6430.msg139528#msg139528 date=1268393859]
Not sure on ka, I've been trying to figure that one out as well.  But more head scratching to me is how "Across truth" becomes "Valid".[/quote]

You reach a valid conclusion by going across truth, maybe?



msg=141775 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 22:48:34 | u=3552

Re: all adpositions

tigermind

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6430.msg139533#msg139533 date=1268394330]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6430.msg139528#msg139528 date=1268393859]
Not sure on ka, I've been trying to figure that one out as well.  But more head scratching to me is how "Across truth" becomes "Valid".[/quote]

You reach a valid conclusion by going across truth, maybe?
[/quote]

I thought kangay came from kan (v., aim) + ngay (adj., true). 



msg=143948 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:30:58 | u=401

Re: all adpositions

Harìghawnu


Sorry for being a skxawng, but could someone please explain "fkip" to me. I don't understand "up among" ... and have problems to find it in my dictionaries.

Google also deliveres just sentences like "Drug use up among new jail inmates". But this is more "something went up" and it does it "among certain people". I don't think, that "fkip" can be used this way. Could someone please so kind, to explain "up among" to a non-English speaker?



msg=143952 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:34:07 | u=21

Re: all adpositions

wm.annis

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6430.msg143948#msg143948 date=1268656258]I don't understand "up among" ... and have problems to find it in my dictionaries. [/quote]

They fly up among the clounds.

They run up among the branches.  (Way up among the branches of Hometree).



msg=143955 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:37:59 | u=401

Re: all adpositions

Harìghawnu

Hm. So it's an upward movement performed among objects (like branches/clouds/...)?



msg=143966 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:47:06 | u=21

Re: all adpositions

wm.annis

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6430.msg143955#msg143955 date=1268656679]Hm. So it's an upward movement performed among objects (like branches/clouds/...)?[/quote]

Upward location among some objects, I think, but we might want to get confirmation on that.



msg=143974 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:53:53 | u=401

Re: all adpositions

Harìghawnu

[quote]Upward location among some objects, [/quote]

Ah, I see.

Upward location among objects would be "oben in den Wolken/Zweigen" = "up in the clouds/branches" in German;
upward movement among objects would be "nach oben in die Wolken/Zweige" = "up into the clouds/branches"

So in combination with "among" both are quite *exotic* concepts to me. ;D



msg=144857 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:10:52 | u=1120

Re: all adpositions

roger

I expect that "up into" would be ??nefkip.



msg=155198 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 11:29:58 | u=1751

Re: all adpositions

blueme

[quote author=roger link=topic=6430.msg144857#msg144857 date=1268687452]
I expect that "up into" would be ??nefkip.
[/quote]

Do we know if that lative exists, or is it maybe entailed in fkip (i.e. so that it can be both locative and lative but not [desc=tafkip]ablative[/desc]?) What about the "[desc=äo, io, eo, uo]basic[/desc]" locative adps., can/should we combine them with ab/lative ones or can they already express movement to and from (as in English?)



msg=137855 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 05:27:46 | u=1627

Frommerian words from NYTimes

Kawazoe

I'm not sure the second one is going to be used very often but I'll certainly use the first one a lot!

Computer -> eltu lefngap
Lawers -> pängkxoyu lekoren

Thank's Karyu Pawl!

Source: [url=http://schott.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/questions-answered-invented-languages/]http://schott.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/questions-answered-invented-languages/[/url]

PS: He mentioned learnnavi.org in there :D



msg=138300 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 16:51:33 | u=132

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

Taronyu

The first is an official word, actually. Frommer liked prrton's suggested so much he made it canon.



msg=138941 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:06:56 | u=0

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

Swoka Swizaw

Wouldn't it be eltu alefngap?



msg=138945 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:08:25 | u=54

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

Tiger

The a can be left off when using le on the following word.  So any of these three would mean the same thing...

eltu lefngap
eltu alefngap
lefngapa eltu



msg=138961 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:21:45 | u=0

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6442.msg138945#msg138945 date=1268352505]
The a can be left off when using le on the following word.  So any of these three would mean the same thing...

eltu lefngap
eltu alefngap
lefngapa eltu
[/quote]

Tewti. Oel 'uti nolumeie.



msg=155220 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:06:19 | u=1975

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

Ean Tirea

I also noticed the word for stomach in there: ngäng. i didnt see this in the dictionary so i figured id post it here after finding it in the article.



msg=155234 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:29:16 | u=631

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Good catch ... but is that a noun or a verb? Not very clear on that...



msg=155244 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:47:00 | u=1975

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

Ean Tirea

I'm pretty sure it is the noun for the stomach, as "to stomach something" seems idiomatic to me? that is, it could have been more accurately defined as something other than stomach if it were a verb. IMO of course.



msg=155267 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 13:23:34 | u=631

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Sounds reasonable to me ;)



msg=155318 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:22:41 | u=1120

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

roger

glossed "N".

Not clear if it's the organ or the belly, but presumably the former.

All new words such as this should be included at WB; please let me know if I've missed any.



msg=155343 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:49:29 | u=2088

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

txon ite

Getting the word for lawyer is very exciting to me! New business cards here i come!



msg=155351 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:55:57 | u=1120

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

roger

[quote author=Txonyä'ite link=topic=6442.msg155343#msg155343 date=1269355769]
Getting the word for lawyer is very exciting to me! New business cards here i come!
[/quote]

"Lawyer" was a proposal to Frommer, but AFAIK not accepted by him, at least not officially for now.



msg=155376 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 15:12:56 | u=430

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

TehMightyPirate

Well, it does kind of seem to fit for now. I mean "chatter of rules", can't get much better than that.



msg=155758 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:09:05 | u=2088

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

txon ite

Well... i guess I can hold off on the Na'vi business cards for a little while....



msg=155761 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:10:46 | u=54

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=6442.msg155318#msg155318 date=1269354161]
glossed "N".

Not clear if it's the organ or the belly, but presumably the former.

All new words such as this should be included at WB; please let me know if I've missed any.
[/quote]I actually think it's the latter...  As in, the opposite of "back" txal.



msg=155792 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:31:06 | u=4754

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Txonyä'ite link=topic=6442.msg155343#msg155343 date=1269355769]
Getting the word for lawyer is very exciting to me! New business cards here i come!
[/quote]

Oh, please don't tell me you are one of those! We are going to have to just feed you to a palulukan ala 'Jurassic Park'  ;)



msg=155803 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:34:49 | u=2088

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

txon ite

Don't worry, I am a second year law student so still 2 more semesters. I won't be a bad one though, do you know how hard it is to catch an ambulance when you are in heels? ;D



msg=156460 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 22:04:23 | u=134

Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes

vidvamp01

[quote author=Txonyä'ite link=topic=6442.msg155803#msg155803 date=1269372889]
Don't worry, I am a second year law student so still 2 more semesters. I won't be a bad one though, do you know how hard it is to catch an ambulance when you are in heels? ;D

[/quote]

LOLZ!



msg=138940 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:06:05 | u=1120

minor updates / anticipated confirmations

roger

Several things we suspected are now confirmed.

As Taronyu noted, 'u is a noun "thing". It may be concrete or abstract: an object, a fact, an idea, etc. Assuming glottal stop is a consonant like any other, we'd expect a short plural u. I've asked Paul if that's really the case, but even if it's a likely source of confusion for English speakers, it wouldn't be a problem for speakers of languages which have a glottal stop, like Arabic or Hawaiian--or Na'vi?  

Pe can combine with nouns as either a prefix (leniting) or as a suffix. That is, like tsa-, it's not restricted to the combinations we've been given. So for example there's ’upe / pe’u "what (word, utterance)". (One of the few Paul thought important enough to spell out - or maybe it occurs in the script? Note the irregular stress: It seems that the stress needs to be adjacent to the pe affix; I'll try to come back to this point.) I assume that you'd use that for "what" in "what did you say?", just as Neytiri uses kempe si nga for "what are you doing?" in the film. In other words, there is no single word "what?" in Na'vi.

Fratseng is "everywhere", and tsafya is "that way, like that", as expected. We can probably fill in the remaining blank cells in the table at Wikibooks in our own notes, but IMO best to leave the book itself alone unless they're confirmed.

We have frato in our old NYT example, and it's now confirmed as "than all", the superlative (most, -est) equivalent of to.

And we finally have a partial paradigm for "that, it". It's a bit irregular: intrans/absolutive tsaw [sic], erg tsal, acc tsat, plus irregular sat only after (non-leniting) ftu, as the SG says. We still don't have the genitive or dative, and I don't know if adpositions attach to tsaw or to the short form tsa-. I've asked Paul if he can clarify.

The ordinal suffix -ve in 'awve "first" is as expected found on other numbers. However, it's irregular: in some cases it suffixes to the long form, in some cases the short form:

Long form: pxeyve "third", volve "eighth"
Short form: muve "second", tsìve "fourth", puve "sixth", kive "seventh"
Only form: 'awve "first", mrrve "fifth"

Higher numbers are predictable from these: short vomuve "tenth" (octal 12th) and vove "twelfth" (octal 14th), but long vopeyve "eleventh" (octal 13th).
(In the interests of completeness, the rest of the provided forms are volawve, vomrrve, vofuve, vohive, mevolve, mevolawve.)

ADDENDUM
No, *u "things" would be too likely to cause confusion, even among the Na'vi. In practice, only the long plural ayu is used.

'Awlie is "once". Note that, unusually for a suffix, the stress is on the li. I deduce from that that ??lie is actually a count noun or adverb "time(s)", contrasting with non-count krr "time (duration)", and would predict that ??mulie is "twice", but neither are attested.



msg=138950 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:13:07 | u=54

Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=6487.msg138940#msg138940 date=1268352365]
And we finally have a partial paradigm for "that, it". It's a bit irregular: intrans/absolutive tsaw [sic], erg tsal, acc tsat, plus irregular sat only after (non-leniting) ftu, as the SG says. We still don't have the genitive or dative, and I don't know if adpositions attach to tsaw or to the short form tsa-. I've asked Paul if he can clarify.
[/quote]Err, ftu is ADP+ so it is leniting...  (It's still irregular seeing as how it would otherwise be the accusitive form of that.)



msg=138954 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:16:05 | u=1120

Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6487.msg138950#msg138950 date=1268352787]
Err, ftu is ADP+ so it is leniting...  (It's still irregular seeing as how it would otherwise be the accusitive form of that.)
[/quote]

No, it's not, not according to Frommer: "ADP-". We probably figured it was because of sat in the SG.



msg=139428 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 09:23:26 | u=1120

Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations

roger

Yes, F confirms that this was not an oversight or typo. Just irregular.



msg=139487 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 10:43:09 | u=54

Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations

Tiger

Interesting indeed.



msg=139663 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 14:50:56 | u=2788

Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=roger link=topic=6487.msg138940#msg138940 date=1268352365]
And we finally have a partial paradigm for "that, it". It's a bit irregular: intrans/absolutive tsaw [sic], erg tsal, acc tsat, plus irregular sat only after (non-leniting) ftu, as the SG says. We still don't have the genitive or dative, and I don't know if adpositions attach to tsaw or to the short form tsa-. I've asked Paul if he can clarify.
[/quote]
Judging from [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/]the earlier snippet[/url], tsa- is the way to go with enclitics:

[quote=Karyu Pawl]For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.[/quote]
Also, that wording kind of suggests that he has since changed his mind about the basic form, does it not...?



msg=140186 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 20:01:11 | u=1120

Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations

roger

No, sorry, tsaw is a contraction of tsa'u.

[quote author=Frommer]
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.
[/quote]

So, is tsane a derivation of tsa, or a further contraction of tsawne? If the former, what's the diff tween tsa and tsaw? I don't know.



msg=140887 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 08:56:26 | u=1225

Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations

neotrekkerz

[quote]We have frato in our old NYT example, and it's now confirmed as "than all", the superlative (most, -est) equivalent of to.[/quote]

So regarding use, the following seems immediate:

Fìutral frato tsawl lu This tree is the tallest

But what if you had the following:  the largest, most beautiful tree

1.  Do you need only 1 frato?  frato tsawla eana utral alor (frato tsawla utral alor seems to me to be the tallest beautiful tree)
2.  What if you use (one of) the adjective(s) on the right side of the noun?  frato tsawla utral alor (a)frato or frato tsawla utral frato alor





msg=141654 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 21:29:52 | u=1120

Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations

roger

I would imagine that you need both superlative adj. on the same side as frato, maybe linked with sì.



msg=139677 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 15:13:01 | u=430

Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

TehMightyPirate

In an email to me from Frommer regarding the GMA stuff I got this little tid-bit:

[quote=Frommer]New oe mengaru piveng futa tìkangkemìri atxantsan mengeyä fpi "Trr Lefpom ma Amerika" oeru teya soli nìtxan.

Furia nì'Ìnglìsì pamrel sivi [pamrel si = 'write'], oeru txoa livu. Ke lu oer set krr atxan, ulte ke new kxeyey sivi.[/quote]



msg=139687 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 15:22:39 | u=2788

Re: Verb for "write"

Lance R. Casey

Already revealed [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/luke-kxu-without-harm/msg132308/#msg132308]here[/url], but there's something else to note: it is now certain that peng is (or can be) transitive.



msg=139706 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 15:37:03 | u=1550

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Taras

Oel frakrr fpamìl futa san peng sìk lu *transitive* :) Kxawm fì'ut oel tslolam ta tìralpeng leRuski :)



msg=175396 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 22:01:19 | u=54

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Tiger

Yay necropost!

So, it occurred to me...

Na'vi only has direct quotes....

Perhaps I don't understand the distinction, but wouldn't "New oe mengaru piveng futa ..." be an indirect quote?  Sure, it's not REALLY a quote because it's in the first person, but if you replaced oe with po, it would be an indirect quote (i think).

New po mengaru piveng futa tìkangkemìri atxantsan mengeyä fpi "Trr Lefpom ma Amerika" oeru teya soli nìtxan.

So is "oe" allowed with a transitive "peng" there but "po" not?



msg=175433 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 22:48:38 | u=631

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Something else is interesting... It concerns the last part of the message
»… ulte ke new kxeyey sivi.«
And I don’t want to make a mistake. Is si here a verb of its own? I thought it would be an auxilary only.

Or would you tranlate this as I don’t want to err?



msg=175449 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:05:30 | u=54

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Tiger

If you were taking it as a verb on it's own, then "kxeyey" would be the subject and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, let alone mean what you translated it as.  It is fulfilling its role as an auxiliary verb there based off kxeyey.



msg=175481 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:54:18 | u=1225

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

neotrekkerz

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6523.msg175396#msg175396 date=1270591279]
Yay necropost!

So, it occurred to me...

Na'vi only has direct quotes....

Perhaps I don't understand the distinction, but wouldn't "New oe mengaru piveng futa ..." be an indirect quote?  Sure, it's not REALLY a quote because it's in the first person, but if you replaced oe with po, it would be an indirect quote (i think).

New po mengaru piveng futa tìkangkemìri atxantsan mengeyä fpi "Trr Lefpom ma Amerika" oeru teya soli nìtxan.
So is "oe" allowed with a transitive "peng" there but "po" not?
[/quote]

The way I'm reading it, it comes across to me as a statement:  "I want to tell you that regarding your excellent work for Good Morning America, I was very happy" or "I want to tell you I was very happy about the excellent work you did regarding the GMA project."

Hence you could use po with it just the same and it would translate then as "He wants to tell..."



msg=175482 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:59:00 | u=54

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Tiger

It's a statement, sure, but it also seems to me like it's an indirect quote.  You could say it equally as 'He wants to tell you, "..."'.

If you replaced "Tell you" with "say", is it still a "statement" and not an "indirect quote"?  What about if you change "wants to" into "will" as in "He will say"...  If it's not an indirect quote, when does it become one?



msg=175489 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:20:49 | u=1225

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

neotrekkerz

I see what your saying.  Hmm, personally for Frommer's sentence I would consider it just a statement.

If you changed "wants to" into "will" it sounds more to me like an indirect quote
"will say" again sounds like an indirect quote

Now that I'm thinking about it, isn't that why we have san...sìk?  For direct quotes only?  To me san x sìk seems like your setting whatever x is in stone.  If you are unsure of what was exactly said, or are just paraphrasing, wouldn't you say (in both English and Na'vi) the thing as a statement?

He said "you're a skxawng" means he literally said that you're a skxawng.
He said you're a moron means he said something like (or something which indicated to the speaker) that you're a moron.

Maybe ask about the possible distinction(s) in the next combining our efforts II email to Frommer?  It's definitely an interesting point.





msg=175491 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:26:39 | u=54

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Tiger

Right, but Frommer has said that only direct speech is allowed.

[quote=Paul Frommer]
Suppose the sentence is, "Eytukan said he would go, but I don't believe him."

Everything converts to direct speech, so it would be:

Poltxe Eytukan san oe kayä sìk, slä oel pot ke spaw.

[quote=roger]And it looks like only direct speech is allowed?[/quote]
Right
[/quote]



msg=175499 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:38:13 | u=1225

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

neotrekkerz

Perhaps he means that if you have san...sìk it's some type of relayed spoken quote (direct or indirect) and no san...sìk means it must be a statement?

Frommer's sentence makes a bit more sense to me this way if I translate peng as "inform"



msg=175506 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:50:14 | u=54

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Tiger

The fact that he took an indirect quote and said about it "Everything converts to direct speech" seems to imply it is not just if san...sìk is used, but the nature of how things are said.



msg=175525 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 02:01:34 | u=1225

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

neotrekkerz

I agree, that's why I like translating it as "inform" rather than "say" or "tell."

"I want to inform you of the following fact:  your excellent work on the GMA project fills me with joy."



msg=175549 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 03:02:23 | u=54

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Tiger

But you're taking some pretty heavy liberties with the translation there.  How you translate it doesn't change what the Na'vi says.

To be honest, I was hoping someone with some more linguistic knowledge than me might be able to cite something telling me my idea of what direct vs indirect speech was is all wrong and giving some new insight into linguistics.  I'd hate to add it to the list of questions for Frommer and have it be something stupid because it's something that any linguist would be able to answer.



msg=175586 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 05:16:17 | u=631

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Isn't it also possible that since he is not actually saying it that the quote … unquote particles are not in use here? In comparison to Eytukan who actually said at one point "no dreamwalker shall be allowed to enter hometree". But since Frommer expresses a fictitious conversation and his words are not really uttered that san x sìk is not needed.

Then again, it's always possible that he just missed it. As he wrote at other instances, it's totally possible that he makes mistakes. And the second sentence says that he's in a hurry which is the reason he'll write in English rather than Na'vi to avoid mistakes...



msg=175592 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 05:49:01 | u=54

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Tiger

That's a good point about him doing it quickly.  I once asked him about people sending him email in Na'vi, how well he can understand it.  As a footnote to the answer, he commented "Oel tel 'upxaret leNa'vi a krr, new oe nìtengfya pamrel sivi nì'eyng. Slä krr a nìNa'vi pamrel si oe, new oel futa upxare oeyä luke keyey livu nìwotx, fte eyawra sìkenongit tivìng suteru."  (And ironically, he sent me an email with a correction to that email a short while later.)

Possibly also relevant to this discussion is this little tidbit.

[quote=Paul Frommer]Srake tsun oe fayupxaret tslivam nìftue? Tse . . . zene pivlltxe san pxìm tsafya lu sìk.[/quote]
Can I understand these messages easily?  Well...  I must say "Often that way"

I bring that up because it's a similar construct to what I mentioned earlier...  A hypothetical dialog hanging off a speech word with a modal verb involved.  And it's something we'd say as an indirect quote (Though in first person it doesn't make a huge difference) in English, but he says it with a direct quote there in Na'vi.



msg=175630 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 07:23:12 | u=1225

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

neotrekkerz

[quote]To be honest, I was hoping someone with some more linguistic knowledge than me might be able to cite something telling me my idea of what direct vs indirect speech was is all wrong and giving some new insight into linguistics.[/quote]

Me too, I'm really curious about that sentence now.



msg=175699 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 10:34:26 | u=631

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6523.msg175592#msg175592 date=1270619341]
That's a good point about him doing it quickly.  I once asked him about people sending him email in Na'vi, how well he can understand it.  As a footnote to the answer, he commented "Oel tel 'upxaret leNa'vi a krr, new oe nìtengfya pamrel sivi nì'eyng. Slä krr a nìNa'vi pamrel si oe, new oel futa upxare oeyä luke keyey livu nìwotx, fte eyawra sìkenongit tivìng suteru."  (And ironically, he sent me an email with a correction to that email a short while later.)[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Interesting - and is that which you give us here the corrected version? Or did that refer to another part of the mail?

I'm curious about the use of nì'eyng here - "I want to write answer-ly the same way" ???

NB: Otherwise that sentence could be added to the wiki canon page of sample sentences. I was asked recently whether there was such an attempt/project. The idea behind it was to see how Frommer uses certain words and to construct some kind of a paradigm for learners who rather go along the lines of existing sentences and change a word here and there before they are confident enough to build their own sentences.



msg=175722 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 11:04:42 | u=54

Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"

Tiger

Nì'eyng is actually in the dictionary.  The translation would be something like "When I receive a message in Na'vi, I want to write the same way in response."  The correction was just a slight semantic correction to something else in the email, nothing grammatical or such.  (Specifically it was using 'u where the more specific kem worked better.)

As far as sample sentences, I'm actually working on a website (very slowly) with the intent of cataloging example usage of words, both Frommerian or otherwise.  The main idea I have is to include pronunciation, but the core concept is similar to what EanaEltu does, except more correct and saving sentences with references to used words.  So you can look up a word and then ask for sample sentences which use it, including derived and inflected forms.  But it will probably be awhile until I am at that stage.



msg=140423 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:22:19 | u=1120

spatial words

roger

There is a noun pa'o "side". It looks like this means spatial "side" as in "which side?", "left side", etc, not as in anatomical flank/ribs, but that is not clear. Anyway, it appears to form several spatial derivations:

  pa "top" N
  kllpa "bottom" N
  mìfa (either stress) "inside" N, ADV
  wrrpa "outside" N, ADV

I'm guessing that the in fäpa is the f in the adposition fkip "up among". It's also found in the adverb

  ne "up" (direction) ADV

to go with our existing nekll "down".

Then from (I presume) hapxì "part" and our andative/venitive? prefixes/serial verbs kä, za, we get:

  zapxì "front" (front part or section) N
  pxì "rear" (rear part or section) N

Interesting that coming is in front and going is in back.

We've got another new derivative,

  satseng "out there" ADV

Don't know if that's dissimilation from the other ts or what. It wouldn't seem to be lenition after , since there's no lenition in käpxì (unless lenition would've applied to kähapxì, with subsequent contraction??)

I wonder if we get a corresponding ??zafìtseng "in here"?

PS. Note also long-known ta’em "from above". I wonder if there's a ??ne'em "to above" that's distinct from nefä "upwards", like tswayon nefä "fly upwards, ascend" vs. ??tswayon ne'em toruk "fly above the leonopteryx".



msg=140429 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:26:12 | u=54

Re: spatial words

Tiger

Tsaw nìhawng käsatseng lu...

(Yay, translating idioms literally! :D)

Maybe the sa in käsatseng is plural, since out there is a big thing with many places.



msg=140434 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:28:25 | u=0

Re: spatial words

Swoka Swizaw

These updates are just wonderful. Thanks.



msg=140442 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:31:20 | u=1120

Re: spatial words

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6585.msg140429#msg140429 date=1268429172]
Maybe the sa in käsatseng is plural, since out there is a big thing with many places.
[/quote]

Nice thought! I've been asking for plurals of our interrogatives & demonstratives, but haven't gotten an answer yet.



msg=140447 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:33:19 | u=1550

Re: spatial words

Taras

Irayo. Oeru frakrr prrte' lu fwa mipa aylì'ut tse'a oel ::) Set oe zene tslivam tsayut nìwotx :)



msg=156236 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 20:37:20 | u=132

Re: spatial words

Taronyu

Did you ask whether fa was the noun and mìfa was the adverb? Seems like a valid question, given the way Frommer gave them to us.



msg=156309 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:01:40 | u=1225

Re: spatial words

neotrekkerz

[quote]  zapxì "front" (front part or section) N
  käpxì "rear" (rear part or section) N

Interesting that coming is in front and going is in back. [/quote]

I've been thinking for a while now about za when used as a prefix.  It seems to indicate motion/actions towards the body:

'ärìp to move
za'ärìp to pull (move towards the body)

munge to take
zamunge to bring (to take towards the body)
This is a little iffy, but I was taught in English that you "take it to someone else, but bring it to me."

This makes zapxì seem very natural to me, as I think of my body in terms of the front and not the back.




msg=156316 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:03:36 | u=1120

Re: spatial words

roger

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=6585.msg156236#msg156236 date=1269463040]
Did you ask whether fa was the noun and mìfa was the adverb? Seems like a valid question, given the way Frommer gave them to us.
[/quote]
Didn't ask.

Wrrpa is also given an "N, ADV". I assume mìpa is the same, just w variable stress as several other words are. Otherwise I presume one would be listed under N and one under ADV.



msg=140538 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 22:33:54 | u=54

Many Earths....

Tiger

Something that has been bugging me for awhile is the phonology of 'Rrta...  Specifically, it can't validly lenit under the rules of Na'vi phonology.  So I emailed Frommer with my question.

The short answer is that words that begin with 'rr or 'll don't lenit.  So many Earths would be ay'Rrta with no short plural.  At Earth would be ro 'Rrta, etc.

The impression I got was that he wasn't 100% happy with this as an answer, but it's not without precedent in other languages.  At this point it seems like he doesn't think he's likely to go the alternate route and relax the phonology rules on liquids (Since ayRrta and ro Rrta are perfectly easy to pronounce).



msg=140870 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 08:27:20 | u=1225

Re: Many Earths....

neotrekkerz

Interesting, been wondering about other lenition exceptions ever since ayu. 



msg=140875 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 08:32:19 | u=54

Re: Many Earths....

Tiger

Do we have an actual answer on ayu?  Been wondering that myself...  As well as how plurals and demonstrative prefixes get combined.  I've seen several different combinations.



msg=140891 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 09:01:46 | u=1225

Re: Many Earths....

neotrekkerz

I saw this [quote]No, *u "things" would be too likely to cause confusion, even among the Na'vi. In practice, only the long plural ayu is used.[/quote]
from [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/msg138940/#msg138940]here[/url]




msg=140895 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 09:14:56 | u=54

Re: Many Earths....

Tiger

Ohhhh, I missed the update to the original message.



msg=140685 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 00:41:28 | u=21

A new participle infix: ‹awn›

wm.annis

In an email discussion about vocabulary matters, Karyu Pawl said this of someone's words — Aylì’u apawnlltxe nìltsan!.  It took me a few seconds to realize what I was seeing.  Then I asked for confirmation.  Was there really an object adjective (aka passive participle) infix? 

[quote="Karyu Pawl"]-us- and -awn- are parallel infixes--active and passive participles respectively.

ioang apuslltxe
lì'fya apawnlltxe[/quote]



msg=140691 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 00:48:13 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

Txantsan!  Leru tsaw nawnew!
(Yeah I know it's a bit awkward of a sentence because it's contrived to use awn.)



msg=140697 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 00:51:27 | u=631

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Amazing news! Thanks for sharing!

So, that means "spoken words" ?



msg=140704 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 01:01:28 | u=1550

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Taras

Irayo nìtxan! Set oe pìyeng ayeylanur oeyä nìwotx ::)

Rutxe nari si: nì+<awn>+omum ::) Awngal omum fìlì'ut ;)



msg=140723 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 01:25:07 | u=1120

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

roger

So it would seem that Na'vi has passive participles, but not passive clauses of the "X was said by Y" variety. Paul has said he's avoided that kind of construction, and AFAIK there is no word for the "by" that we would need to create it. Like the lack of /b d g/, this seems to be a point that we were meant to work around.



msg=140729 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 01:34:28 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

Passive voice he said would be based on word order emphasis...

Eg. Frapol ayerikti teraron - Everyone hunts hexapods
Ayerikit frapol teraron - Hexapods are hunted by everyone
Ayerikit teraron frapol - Hexapods are hunted by EVERYONE

But working around the lack of <awn> is a lot more cumbersome...

Ayerik atawnaron - Hunted hexapods
Ayerik a fot fkol teraron - Hexapods that are hunted



msg=140739 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 01:57:17 | u=1120

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

roger

Do you know that it's "ayerik", or are you making that assumption? That's s.t. I've been wondering about.



msg=140742 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 02:08:53 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

It's an assumption, but on the grand scale of assumptions, it seems like a reasonably safe one to make.  However knowing is always nicer than assuming.



msg=140794 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 04:20:52 | u=0

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Swoka Swizaw

Finally, an infix with "n." I was wondering if he'd use that.



msg=141071 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 13:30:44 | u=2788

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=6601.msg140704#msg140704 date=1268442088]
Rutxe nari si: nì+<awn>+omum ::) Awngal omum fìlì'ut ;)
[/quote]

Tewti! Tsalì'u ahiyìk law lam set. Nga eltu sarmatsi nìltsan! :)



msg=141787 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 22:53:34 | u=3552

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

tigermind

Huzzah!  I have more translations to fix!

Edit:  I just had a thought:  What does it mean if we stick this infix inside of an intransitive verb?  Or would it be meaningless?  Like, does *r<awn>ey mean anything?



msg=142109 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 06:57:50 | u=984

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

okrìsti

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6601.msg141787#msg141787 date=1268520814]
Edit:  I just had a thought:  What does it mean if we stick this infix inside of an intransitive verb?  Or would it be meaningless?  Like, does *r<awn>ey mean anything?
[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]I think so. I have made up these: aysìpawnlltxe or aysìpawneng :)



msg=142110 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 07:04:21 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

I think your melì'u just broke my eltu.



msg=142116 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 07:22:37 | u=1120

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

roger

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6601.msg141787#msg141787 date=1268520814]
Huzzah!  I have more translations to fix!

Edit:  I just had a thought:  What does it mean if we stick this infix inside of an intransitive verb?  Or would it be meaningless?  Like, does *r<awn>ey mean anything?
[/quote]

The only way it could mean anything was if it transitivized the verb, "my life was lived well" etc. English is pretty flexible that way, but don't know about Na'vi



msg=143046 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 19:54:47 | u=3552

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

tigermind

[quote author=roger link=topic=6601.msg142116#msg142116 date=1268551357]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6601.msg141787#msg141787 date=1268520814]
Huzzah!  I have more translations to fix!

Edit:  I just had a thought:  What does it mean if we stick this infix inside of an intransitive verb?  Or would it be meaningless?  Like, does *r<awn>ey mean anything?
[/quote]

The only way it could mean anything was if it transitivized the verb, "my life was lived well" etc. English is pretty flexible that way, but don't know about Na'vi
[/quote]

Hmm, so... would tawnerkup be... dead?  Or am i misunderstanding how this participle works?



msg=143052 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:06:17 | u=1310

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Nawma_Tsamsiyan03

theoretically, i believe it past participle of die is dead, so the verb terkup would take up the "awn" infix, tawnerkup...just have to make sure if u have a noun you add the adjectival prefix accordingly! ...tawtute atawnerkup. (dead skyperson?)



msg=143096 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:30:58 | u=631

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]No, I don't think you do ... but it's "died" as in "the died father" I'm not sure whether this is common in English - I guess, English uses "late" for somebody who died: "the late father" or simply "the father who died"
In German it's possible to say "died father"



msg=143110 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:38:14 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

<awn> is PASSIVE participle, not PAST participle



msg=143134 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:48:04 | u=1310

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Nawma_Tsamsiyan03

..or is it a past participle in passive voice...what is a passive participle? cause i agree that i think it would be "died," but past participle is used to create a perfect tense or passive voice..."has eaten" vs "was eaten"..



msg=143167 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:09:36 | u=21

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

wm.annis

[quote author=Tsamsteu link=topic=6601.msg143134#msg143134 date=1268599684]
..or is it a past participle in passive voice...what is a passive participle? cause i agree that i think it would be "died," but past participle is used to create a perfect tense or passive voice..."has eaten" vs "was eaten"..
[/quote]

We're screwed up by the English language here.  We only have a past passive participle.  We have no good way to express a tenseless, passive participle, which ‹awn› is.  So we have to fake it with our past passive participle.



msg=143191 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:18:27 | u=3552

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

tigermind

I have to admit, i'm pretty much limited to English when it comes to understanding fine points of grammar; but i think i see the difference between what i thought <awn> is and what it actually is. Irayo ayngeyä srungìri, ma smuktu.



msg=143195 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:20:12 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

"Died" would probably be something more like *tusolerkup or *tusalmerkup...  But I don't think we've been told if/how the participle infix can be combined with tense or aspect.



msg=143223 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:36:49 | u=1257

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Talis

Well, so it's really passive?
Like... I don't know how to say in English... maybe like this:
"You have been seen" // "Du wurdest gesehen"
"You have been hit" // "Du wurdest getroffen" ?

Or is it different to the German "Passiv" ?
Someone said something like "Partizip II"... but I think this is really more like <us> ...



msg=143235 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:48:50 | u=0

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg143195#msg143195 date=1268601612]
"Died" would probably be something more like *tusolerkup or *tusalmerkup...  But I don't think we've been told if/how the participle infix can be combined with tense or aspect.
[/quote]

I absoutely concede that most, especially yourself, know more about Na'vi than I, but when it comes to the examples that you've given, is it really essential that when translating Na'vi to English to be so literal? If Na'vi is bound to points of grammar that are NOT apparent in English, perhaps applying only what English uses is all we can do. If "dead," is not-living - an adjective - in Na'vi, why does that work? Why is rusey "living?" (Sure, rawney would be sort of odd, itself, but still...)

All I am saying is that it doesn't have to be that complicated. Hell, if the perfective and imperfective have to be translated as the English aspects "have **ed" and "**ing," then the active and passive participles might have to be just as we think they should be, until further notice, of course.



msg=143241 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:59:03 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

That's why I put the *, it's just a hypothetical construct that would carry similar semantics to the English...  It may not be correct Na'vi at all, and I'm not sure I'd personally ever use it that way.  The die example is probably bad because the semantic meaning is already mostly covered by a different word anyway.  I'm not even sure the past participle in English even words on intransitive verbs...  The only examples I can think of off the top of my head are verbs which have gained transitive meanings.

But you are correct, literal translation is not usually the best.  There may be cases where a past participle would be useful in Na'vi, for sure, but trying to use the best Na'vi grammar to convey the meaning is what's important, especially since there are numerous ways that the same thing in English can be correctly translated to Na'vi, depending on the intended meaning.



msg=143491 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:46:57 | u=0

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg143241#msg143241 date=1268603943]
The die example is probably bad because the semantic meaning is already mostly covered by a different word anyway.
[/quote]

Then, may I offer a way that tawnerkup can be used...

We may say that tuserkup outlines the process of death. I feel that tawnerkup could be used to describe the finality of that process; new death. And, kerusey's for things that are long gone, or dead in a figurative sense.

I, equally, concede that such things are all speculative, but, in my head, make the most sense. What do you all think?



msg=143504 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:54:00 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

To get that meaning, you have to really redefine what a passive participle is though.



msg=143506 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:54:52 | u=21

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

wm.annis

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6601.msg143491#msg143491 date=1268617617]I, equally, concede that such things are all speculative, but, in my head, make the most sense. What do you all think?[/quote]

This seems an over-nice spin on what's basically a grammar question, I'm afraid. ;)

Using the passive participle infix here seems like saying "a deaded yerik" or "the flied man."



msg=143511 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:57:07 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6601.msg143506#msg143506 date=1268618092]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6601.msg143491#msg143491 date=1268617617]I, equally, concede that such things are all speculative, but, in my head, make the most sense. What do you all think?[/quote]

This seems an over-nice spin on what's basically a grammar question, I'm afraid. ;)

Using the passive participle infix here seems like saying "a deaded yerik" or "the flied man."
[/quote]That is an agreeded point to me.



msg=144013 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 13:39:05 | u=0

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg143504#msg143504 date=1268618040]
To get that meaning, you have to really redefine what a passive participle is though.
[/quote]

Help me to See, then - what is it?

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6601.msg143506#msg143506 date=1268618092]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6601.msg143491#msg143491 date=1268617617]I, equally, concede that such things are all speculative, but, in my head, make the most sense. What do you all think?[/quote]

This seems an over-nice spin on what's basically a grammar question, I'm afraid. ;)

Using the passive participle infix here seems like saying "a deaded yerik" or "the flied man."
[/quote]

Sounds good to me, so long as I'm right... :P



msg=144028 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 13:49:28 | u=1257

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Talis

So can somebody tell me: is it like the German "Passiv" or isn't it?  ???  ::)

[quote]a deaded yerik[/quote]
this seems to me like the German "Passiv" but I'm not quite sure... ^^



msg=144622 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 19:12:13 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

As I understand wm's example of "a deaded yerik" it's showing why it is grammatically wrong with something grammatically wrong in English...  As in something that die was done to (NOT something that itself died) which doesn't really make sense.



msg=144897 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:33:10 | u=664

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg144622#msg144622 date=1268680333]
As I understand wm's example of "a deaded yerik" it's showing why it is grammatically wrong with something grammatically wrong in English...   As in something that die was done to (NOT something that itself died) which doesn't really make sense.
[/quote]

That is the real point I think, that this can only be used if the noun modified is the object of the verbal adjective, so a verb like "die" could never be used with <awm>.  "kill" could, "make dead" could if <eyk> and <awm> could be used in the same word but I suspect they can't.

Anyways, long story short (and correct me if I'm wrong) use <awm> with verbs that can be transitive, if the noun is the object of that verb, otherwise use <us>. 

Intransitive:
Deaded yerik = tawnerkupa yerik (not grammatically correct)
Dying yerik =  tuserkupa yerik  ex. The dying yerik howls.  Tuserkupa yerik nguway si.
Dead yerik = keruseya yerik  ex. I eat the dead yerik.  Oel yom keruseya yerikit.

Transitive:
hunting yerik = tusarona yerik  ex. The hunting yerik does not see us.  Tusarona yerikil ke tse'a ayoeti.
hunted yerik = tawnarona yerik  ex. The hunted yerik runs.  Tawnarona yerik tul.
killing yerik = tspusanga yerik ex. Many killing(deadly) yeriks are here. Pxaya yerikil atspusang tok fìtsengit.
killed yerik = tspawnanga yerik ex. I take the killed yerik's heart. Oel munge tspawnanga yerikyä txe'lanit.

Who knows if you can put other tenses in there as well, but I don't think we necessarily NEED that functionality in the language to be understood.

-Keyl






msg=144926 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:47:03 | u=0

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6601.msg144897#msg144897 date=1268688790]
Deaded yerik = tawnerkupa yerik (not grammatically correct)
Dying yerik =  tuserkupa yerik  ex. The dying yerik howls.  Tuserkupa yerik nguway si.
Dead yerik = keruseya yerik  ex. I eat the dead yerik.  Oel yom keruseya yerikit.
[/quote]

Well rendered - I get it. I suppose, in my anal-retentive ways, that I just figured that the use of kerusey, being a compound of sorts, was only used because that's all we had to express "death." Tawnerkup appeared more formulaic. But, it's all "understooded" now. ;D



msg=153993 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 14:54:41 | u=417

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Alìm Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6601.msg143235#msg143235 date=1268603330]
Why is rusey "living?" (Sure, rawney would be sort of odd, itself, but still...)
[/quote]

Am I incorrect in my understanding of this infix or wouldn't rawney be "live" as in "a live wire" or "a live specimen."

Perhaps even to the point of translating it as the adjective alive (even though that has very similar meaning to "living" in English, it does have its other uses).



msg=154017 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 15:10:01 | u=0

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=6601.msg153993#msg153993 date=1269269681]
Perhaps even to the point of translating it as the adjective alive (even though that has very similar meaning to "living" in English, it does have its other uses).
[/quote]

Yeah, I thought that, too. It will be intriguing how it all plays out.



msg=154130 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 16:29:08 | u=21

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

wm.annis

[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=6601.msg153993#msg153993 date=1269269681]Am I incorrect in my understanding of this infix or wouldn't rawney be "live" as in "a live wire" or "a live specimen."

Perhaps even to the point of translating it as the adjective alive (even though that has very similar meaning to "living" in English, it does have its other uses).[/quote]

As ‹awn› has been given to us, rawney cannot be correct.  It's like "colorless green ideas sleep furiously" — it's formally correct, but doesn't mean anything.

So, here's a simple sentence:

  Nantangìl taron yerikit A viperwolf hunts a yerik.

In this example we've just got the normal, finite verb form, unmarked in any way.  Na'vi gives us two ways to take this expression and turn parts of it into a noun phrase with a Noun + Adjective.

The active participle allows us to turn the subject and the verb into a noun phrase, nantang atusaron (a hunting viperwolf).

The passive participle allows us to turn the verb and the object into a noun phrase, tawnarona yerik (a being-hunted yerik).

So, an active participle is a sort of "subject adjective" and the passive participle is a sort of "object adjective."  Because an intransitive verb like rey cannot have an object, an object adjective derived from it doesn't really make sense.  For ‹awn› to go into an intransitive verb, its meaning would have to be extended.  This is possible, but Frommer has given us no hint that this might happen.



msg=154291 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 17:48:14 | u=417

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Alìm Tsamsiyu

Ahh.. Tslolam.  Irayo ma wm.annis, ngeyä aylì'ul fì'ut law sleyku.



msg=198948 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 21:43:53 | u=1751

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

blueme

How would y’all say everything is permitted?

I came up with [desc=thinking that "everything" here is really "every action"]frakem lu tawnunga kem[/desc], but maybe there's a more elegant solution.



msg=198970 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 22:10:07 | u=21

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

wm.annis

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6601.msg198948#msg198948 date=1272577433]
How would y’all say everything is permitted?[/quote]

Fko tsun frakem sivi.

But there may be more idiomatic solutions we'll have to wait on Frommer for.



msg=199062 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 00:05:00 | u=1751

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

blueme

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6601.msg198970#msg198970 date=1272579007]
But there may be more idiomatic solutions we'll have to wait on Frommer for.
[/quote]

Or simply ask for [desc=frakem lu :free:]free[/desc]. :D



msg=199163 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 04:10:32 | u=3552

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

tigermind

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6601.msg198948#msg198948 date=1272577433]
How would y’all say everything is permitted?

I came up with [desc=thinking that "everything" here is really "every action"]frakem lu tawnunga kem[/desc], but maybe there's a more elegant solution.
[/quote]

Oel ngati kame, ma Altayir.



msg=199302 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 10:39:33 | u=971

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

marger

It would be so much easier if we could say (as i know it is incorrect/forbidden):
Ke'u lu ngay, frakem lu tawnung.

[quote]Oel ngati kame, ma Altayir.[/quote]

With the PE he might learn some na'vi too ::) ;)



msg=199798 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 19:51:18 | u=73

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Prrton

[quote author=Hawnuyu atxen link=topic=6601.msg199302#msg199302 date=1272623973]
It would be so much easier if we could say (as i know it is incorrect/forbidden):
Ke'u lu ngay, frakem lu tawnung.
[/quote]

Ke'u lu ngay, frakemit tung.

There is a silent «fkol» in there that makes this the closest thing Na'vi has to "passive". It's not very IndoEuropean, but quite elegant in its simplicity.

The pattern is:

Promote the accusative noun to the head (most prominent area) of the sentence or clause and leave out the ergative "agent" if he/she/it is not needed. If completely "missing" the agent is assumed to be «fkol».

 [Nothing is true, (one) allows every action.]

PS: I think of it as "Yoda passive".




msg=199808 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 20:01:18 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

The thing is the agent is rarely "completely" missing...  It could be misunderstood as coming from context, so unless the context is already "fkol" as the agent, it should probably be said I'd imagine.



msg=199815 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 20:10:56 | u=73

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg199808#msg199808 date=1272657678]
The thing is the agent is rarely "completely" missing...  It could be misunderstood as coming from context, so unless the context is already "fkol" as the agent, it should probably be said I'd imagine.
[/quote]

It only "hurts" to say it if it messes up flow or rhythm of the sentence.

I find it rather easy to "leave things out" in Na'vi that we couldn't do without in English because that's very common in Japanese. Once the topics and/or agents are understood from the context, it's much more NATURAL to leave them out.

However, in this particular case it does make sense to stick «fkol» in because (lacking context) that «tung» comes across as a strong candidate for an imperative.



msg=199824 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 20:16:55 | u=1550

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Taras

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6601.msg199798#msg199798 date=1272657078]
Ke'u lu ngay, frakemit tung.
[/quote]

Ke'u ke lu ngay... Oeru tìyawr, kefyak?



msg=199859 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 20:54:00 | u=1751

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

blueme

Oh, this is excellent, ma Prrton! Exactly the kind of elegant solution I was looking for. :D I know that wm.annis offered a very similar phrase, but I are a [desc=strawberry~]blonde[/desc], and keep forgetting about the possibility of elision, despite the fact that in Hungarian that's often the only correct way.

However, I agree with Kemaweyan in that it would be even better with the double negative.
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=6601.msg199824#msg199824 date=1272658615]
Ke'u ke lu ngay...[/quote]


Still, this wouldn't be my post if I didn't make an eagle-eyed (and potentially incorrect) observation regarding this:
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6601.msg199798#msg199798 date=1272657078]
[...] Promote the accusative noun to the head (most prominent area) of the sentence [...][/quote]

Here's what Pawl said about this earlier.
[quote=PF in LN Wiki – Canon]The only revision I made was to change the word order to place more emphasis on the "mine":

Ngeyä kxetse lu oeru.

(The end of the sentence is where the "punch" comes.)[/quote]

From this I understand that the most prominent area is the end of the sentence.



msg=200012 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 23:13:10 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

That's to really give that an extra *punch*.  Like in English if you said a word with extra emphasis.  What prrton is referring to is just shifting the main focus, which also per frommer tends to come from the first position.

Tsakemit fkol tung - That is allowed
Tung fkol tsakemit - *THAT* is allowed



msg=200578 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 18:27:23 | u=73

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Prrton

I agree with tsmukan Omängum Fra'uti. By putting (most prominent area) in parentheses, I didn't mean that that is always the head. I should have written (or the 'most prominent area') because in Altaic word order, sometime that doesn't come first. In Eri's 'tail' advert campaign, I see why K. Pawl felt that the 'end' was best for the *punch*, but as a general rule, he tends to put things that are more important in earlier on. I've almost never seen a TOPIC(ìri) come late in the game, for example.

And, K.P. specifically said (to me. Sorry I don't have it in writing) about this construct that the "thing possessed" should be PROMOTED (typically to the front of the action). In the practice of writing (on average), I think that would more likely be earlier on. In conversation (more like what an ad slogan would be too), that position of promotion could be elsewhere.

The point is to HIGHLIGHT the noun in the accusative (-t, -ti, -it) wherever you the speaker think that is.

      [desc=Her THROAT was being snacked upon by the vampire.]Flewit peyä näk reypayìt a vrrtepìl frarmìp.[/desc]

~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, and the double negative is good ("very good only").  ;)  BUT, it's not required, either, according to my understanding.



msg=200624 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 19:25:32 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

what makes you say its not required?  in situations that call for it, the impression that I got is that grammatically it is required.  However its ambiguous if it would be used with the copula.



msg=200684 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 20:47:40 | u=1751

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

blueme

I wanted to ask the same thing. :D It would seem to me that the logic of negation is a very fundamental piece of a language's grammar, and if double negatives are allowed then they are, in fact, also required. Then again, passive in Na’vi isn't absolute [desc=there's no passive clause but there's a passive participle infix]either[/desc], and the whole language is very permissive, so whatever...



msg=200691 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 21:02:46 | u=21

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

wm.annis

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6601.msg200684#msg200684 date=1272746860]
I wanted to ask the same thing. :D It would seem to me that the logic of negation is a very fundamental piece of a language's grammar, and if double negatives are allowed then they are, in fact, also required. [/quote]

Plenty of natural languages allow double negation but don't require it, for example, ancient Greek.



msg=200715 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 21:46:44 | u=54

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Tiger

It wouldn't surprise me to see Na'vi fall into that category as well...  But did you get the impression from the wording that Paul used that the double negative was required, or just that he was recommending it in that situation?



msg=201321 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 19:13:34 | u=73

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg200715#msg200715 date=1272750404]
It wouldn't surprise me to see Na'vi fall into that category as well...  But did you get the impression from the wording that Paul used that the double negative was required, or just that he was recommending it in that situation?
[/quote]

Perhaps I had lost the sense of the original meaning that was being sought. I was focused on the passive aspect, more than the negation of the first half when I first commented on this.

  Ke'u lu ngay, frakemit tung.

Is «Ke'u lu ngay» supposed to be "nothing is real" or "nothing is true"?

That seems perfectly valid to me.

  But, «Ke lu ke'u a ngay (lu)» might be my preferred translation for that.

Spanish allows double negation but does not require it.

  - Hay nada que puedes decir... There's nothing that you can say...
  - No hay nada que puedes decir... There's NOTHING that you can say...
  - No hay nada que nadie puede decir... There's NOTHING that ANYONE can say...

English also allows double (and triple) negatives. They just don't happen to be blessed by the establishment.

  - I ain't got n'more time to waste on nobody the likes o' you.
  - I don't have any more time to waste with anyone of your ilk.

The speaker is "fed up" with the behavior of the listener and is precluding the possibility of future intercourse.

The core *meaning* is the same in both sentences. The register is quite different but completely mutually intelligible (at least in one direction). The "ain't" register speaker might struggle a bit with the "fancy talk" à la "ilk."

I've gotten the sense from K. Pawl that double (and triple) negation in Na'vi is allowed (and in many cases preferred), but not required semantically in all cases. I've been using it to STRENGTHEN negativity, but sometimes the most subtle, quiet message is the most powerful.

Maybe my Spanish accent is stronger than I think.

    ;)



msg=201351 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 19:50:27 | u=595

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

lightning

I think we really need a clarification from Karyu Pawl here.

I myself don't recall any canonical sentence calling for a double negative but not having it. That leads me to the opinion that Na'vi negative concord indeed is grammatically required, as is the case with Slavic languages. By that logic, a statement like "Ke'u lu ngay" would be nonsensical as it would say something along the lines of "There IS some thing that is true and that thing is the/a no-thing", instead of the English "Nothing is true" you native speakers tend to see there ;)

However, judging by the general level of flexibility in Na'vi (word order, subordination, pro-drop, tense/aspect drop), I agree with wm.annis and omängum fra'uti that the recommended-but-not-required approach would actually fit the language better.



msg=201439 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 21:55:13 | u=73

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Prrton

[quote author=Tawtakuk link=topic=6601.msg201351#msg201351 date=1272829827]
I think we really need a clarification from Karyu Pawl here.

I myself don't recall any canonical sentence calling for a double negative but not having it. That leads me to the opinion that Na'vi negative concord indeed is grammatically required, as is the case with Slavic languages. By that logic, a statement like "Ke'u lu ngay" would be nonsensical as it would say something along the lines of "There IS some thing that is true and that thing is the/a no-thing", instead of the English "Nothing is true" you native speakers tend to see there ;)

However, judging by the general level of flexibility in Na'vi (word order, subordination, pro-drop, tense/aspect drop), I agree with wm.annis and omängum fra'uti that the recommended-but-not-required approach would actually fit the language better.
[/quote]

I've asked. Will post reply here or separately in this area when/if it arrives.

By "calling for" do you mean "where one would expect based on one's understanding of the rules"? If they (double negatives) are optional (truly optional) then they are never technically "called for" based on my understanding of "called for."

And I'm not exactly sure what «ke'u» means either. It could be as much of a philosophical question as a grammatical one.

 Kea 'u lu ngay.
 Lu ngay 'u ake.
 Ke lu kea 'u a ngay lu.
 Ngay a 'u lu ke'u.


Oel fpìl futa fìtìpawmìri ral a lu txeleuo ke lu horenteri lì'fyaoyä nì'aw.  ;)

[desc=Satyān nāsti parō dharmah.][img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Satyan.png[/img][/desc]



msg=201592 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 04:07:58 | u=73

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

Prrton

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6601.msg201439#msg201439 date=1272837313]
[quote author=Tawtakuk link=topic=6601.msg201351#msg201351 date=1272829827]
I think we really need a clarification from Karyu Pawl here.

I myself don't recall any canonical sentence calling for a double negative but not having it. That leads me to the opinion that Na'vi negative concord indeed is grammatically required, as is the case with Slavic languages. By that logic, a statement like "Ke'u lu ngay" would be nonsensical as it would say something along the lines of "There IS some thing that is true and that thing is the/a no-thing", instead of the English "Nothing is true" you native speakers tend to see there ;)

However, judging by the general level of flexibility in Na'vi (word order, subordination, pro-drop, tense/aspect drop), I agree with wm.annis and omängum fra'uti that the recommended-but-not-required approach would actually fit the language better.
[/quote]

I've asked. Will post reply here or separately in this area when/if it arrives.

[/quote]

[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/double-negatives-not-optional/]Tì'eyng poläheiem[/url] ulte tsakoren lu law nìwotx.



msg=201619 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 05:00:18 | u=595

Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›

lightning

... and the off-topic is resolved :) Thanks for asking that question, and I am truly amazed how quickly we got the response.



msg=141674 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 21:48:34 | u=1120

more grammatical tidbits

roger

Since I've been asked to combine releases, I plan on adding to this post over the next couple days, so you might want to check back.

conjunctions &c.: however, although, instead

We've finally got Grace's first line!

Tsun tivam. Aylì’u ngian nì’it skepek lu.
Not bad. (= [that] can do.) You sound rather formal. (= [your] words, however, are a bit formal.)

ngian = however ADV
skepek = formal (stress not confirmed; taken from the film)

I don't know if ngian can be used as a conjunction ("I'll make it however you like.") However (ngian), I imagine that that might be spelled out as "that way which (you like)", and that ngian is only used as an adverb, as here. (Frommer only glosses it as an adverb.)

We do have a couple other conjunctions, hufwa I don't have examples of their use:

hufwa = although CONJ
tup = instead of, rather than CONJ

I assume hufwa is a compound of hu 'together with' and fwa 'that' (subordinating conjunction), as in "with = given that I want to go" --> "although I want to go", but it's not too clear to me.

It would be cool if we could say ??poru ngatup "(gave it) to him rather than you", but I don't know if we can. We'd lose the dative on "you" that way, which could be a problem. (Could be read as "I rather than you gave it to him".)

indefinite pronouns
Made by tacking -o on a noun:

'uo something
tuteo somebody
tsengo somewhere

Wonder if there's a connection between this -o and the o- that seems to derive oeyk 'a cause' from eyk 'to lead'.

how much/many
We have holpxay 'number' from hol 'few' + pxay 'many'. Add pe and we get holpxaype, polpxay "how many".

Same thing w "how much": txan is 'much' (great quantity), a new word hìm 'a little' (small quantity), for hìmtxan 'amount' and hìmtxampe, pìmtxan "how much".

Note the contraction so that the pe is always adjacent to the stress. In ’upe, pe’u "what (word)" the stress shifts for the same result; I'm not sure yet if it's supposed to or if that was a typo. Anyway, that's all the preconstructed interrogatives.

[end of updates]



msg=141693 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 22:00:22 | u=1550

Re: more grammatical tidbits

Taras

Tewti! Set oel tslolam tsaylì'ut ulte prrte' leiu :D



msg=141740 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 22:30:47 | u=631

Re: more grammatical tidbits

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Irayo futa ngal ayoengar tìng fìfmawnit :)



msg=142048 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 04:03:05 | u=1225

Re: more grammatical tidbits

neotrekkerz

Hufwa awnga nolume txana ayu, oe frakrr nolew ivomum ralit faylì'uyä.  Txantsan!



msg=142152 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 08:50:04 | u=2873

Re: more grammatical tidbits

Skyinou

[quote author=roger link=topic=6638.msg141674#msg141674 date=1268516914]
It would be cool if we could say ??poru ngatup "(gave it) to him rather than you", but I don't know if we can. We'd lose the dative on "you" that way, which could be a problem. (Could be read as "I rather than you gave it to him".)
[/quote]
Why not "ngarutup" then?



msg=142156 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 09:03:39 | u=1120

Re: more grammatical tidbits

roger

I don't know if we can double up case/adposition endings like that. If we can, then that would work.



msg=142982 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 19:18:21 | u=631

Re: more grammatical tidbits

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]But that would work against all we've learned so far and only confuse all those who wanted to put case endings on nouns after adpositions ... Frommer always uses the 'nominative' / caseless form of the (pro)noun after an adposition.



msg=143013 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 19:36:59 | u=1550

Re: more grammatical tidbits

Taras

Tewti! Irayo ;) Txantsana fmawm a san -o sìk, san holpxaype sìk sì lahe...



msg=143070 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:16:28 | u=2873

Re: more grammatical tidbits

Skyinou

[quote author=roger link=topic=6638.msg142156#msg142156 date=1268557419]
I don't know if we can double up case/adposition endings like that. If we can, then that would work.
[/quote]
We already have "horentisì" from Frommer, is it different from a linguistical point of view?



msg=143114 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:40:09 | u=54

Re: more grammatical tidbits

Tiger

sì isn't an adposition, it's a conjunction.



msg=143329 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 22:51:04 | u=1120

Re: more grammatical tidbits

roger

Tup, like sì, is labeled a conjunction.



msg=143648 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:27:36 | u=1225

Re: more grammatical tidbits

neotrekkerz

[quote]indefinite pronouns
Made by tacking -o on a noun:

'uo something
tuteo somebody
tsengo somewhere[/quote]

So is someone fkoyo, fko, or something else?



msg=143752 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 05:06:24 | u=54

Re: more grammatical tidbits

Tiger

Someone in English is a synonym for somebody, so tuteo I would use for someone.



msg=143756 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 05:13:21 | u=1225

Re: more grammatical tidbits

neotrekkerz

Ah yes, a much easier way.



msg=143771 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 05:28:37 | u=1120

Re: more grammatical tidbits

roger

It's actually glossed as "someone", but I'm trying to keep "X-one" for po-derivatives and "X-body" for tute-derivatives. Not really a meaningful distinction in English, but we may have a difference in Na'vi between tsa'u "that thing", tsapo "that one (animate)", and tsatu "that person": it's not yet clear.



msg=144636 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 19:19:41 | u=134

Re: more grammatical tidbits

vidvamp01

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6638.msg143752#msg143752 date=1268629584]
Someone in English is a synonym for somebody, so tuteo I would use for someone.
[/quote]

Whats worse is all of the dictionaries use some person as the definition for finding synonyms. LOL

However there are two definitions.

pronoun . An unspecified or unknown person.

n. A person of unique qualities.


It is possible that these definitions are segregated.



msg=145086 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 23:53:58 | u=132

Re: more grammatical tidbits

Taronyu

Added everything.



msg=143449 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 00:59:04 | u=21

A collection

wm.annis

I recently translated a Navajo Coyote tale into Na'vi.  There were a few words missing, and I had a few style questions I wanted checked by Karyu Pawl before I was willing to present the text in public.  I have a few updates to make to that story yet, but I thought people would be interested in some of the comments, which include some grammar as well as a few new bits of vocabulary.

[quote]This would be a good place for the “indefinite o.” You can optionally add an o to nouns to show indefiniteness—an N, one N, some N. (The case endings follow the o.) Useful in contexts where the def./indef. status isn’t clear. (Cf. one kid’s comment to another when Jake first visits Hometree: “Txopu rä’ä si, lu ketuwongo nì’aw.” Also cf. tsengo ‘somewhere, ’ tuteo ‘someone’) Here, without the –o the opening could be read, “It was the day when . . .”

Encounter, meet by chance = ultxarun. (Cf. ultxa si hu = meet with s.o. intentionally).

Nang is always sentence-final and appears with nìtxan.

Mì is like en in Spanish—either ‘in’ or ‘on.’ Back (body part) = txal.

“I wish” or “Oh that . . .” is nìrangal (rangal ‘wish’ v.) followed by the present imperfective subjunctive –irv- for present counterfactuals or the present perfective subjunctive –ilv- for past counterfactuals.

Better: Pìsyeng oe ngar. The two future markers have alternate forms with s: -ì(s)y- and -a(s)y- . The s-forms are used optionally to indicate determination to bring something about rather than a simple prediction about the future. (I used them occasionally but probably shd. do so more.)

Spark = txepvi. (-vi is a formative along the lines of what Kirk and Britton have suggested. It’s related to “child” (cf. ’eveng, ’evi; also cf. Malay/Indonesian “anak”) and is used loosely for the spawn of s.t. bigger. So sparks are the children of the fire. (Cf. also Na’vi!)

Lefpom is nfp (not for people)—use it for “happy story,” “joyous occasion,” etc. For people: nitram. For internal states (happy, sad, hot, cold, hungry, thirsty, . . .) use ’efu + ADJ, as in Eng. “I feel cold.”

Tok is actually a transitive verb (!): to be in a place is to occupy that place and thereby change its nature. (2) With krr, txan is the opposite of yol. Cf.: Yola krr, txana krr, ke transten. “It doesn’t matter how long it takes” (a Moat line that I don’t think made it to the final cut).
[/quote]

I asked him how to indicate simultaneous action, "she ran away laughing."

[quote]I’ve been using tengkrr plus –er-[/quote]

Finally,

[quote]Chase = fewi, catch = stä’nì. Don’t forget ke along with kawkrr. [/quote]


Comments:



msg=143465 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:18:57 | u=1550

Re: A collection

Taras

Tewti, irayo.

Ngian lu oeru 'awtìpawm a lu eyawr lì'u a san transten sìk srak? Fu nìeyawr fko pivlltxe san tsranten sìk srak?



msg=143474 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:26:50 | u=21

Re: A collection

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=6709.msg143465#msg143465 date=1268615937]Ngian lu oeru 'awtìpawm a lu eyawr lì'u a san transten sìk srak?[/quote]

Oel fpìl futa san transten sìk lu kxeyey.



msg=143485 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:41:28 | u=1550

Re: A collection

Taras

Irayo, oe fpìl tengfya ;)



msg=143502 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:52:43 | u=631

Re: A collection

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]tewti!!! :)

thanks for sharing!!!



msg=143505 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:54:44 | u=54

Re: A collection

Tiger

Wow, you sure know how to get new stuff out of him.



msg=143520 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 02:03:05 | u=21

Re: A collection

wm.annis

I ask infrequently, but with precision. ;)

I also asked about nouns ending in the pseudo-vowels.  Because they cannot occur in closed syllables or occur next to their consonantal siblings there are some interesting puzzles.

I gave him this:

trr            'ewll
trrìl          'ewllìl
trrit (trrti)  'ewllit ('ewllti)
trrur          'ewllur ('ewllru?)
trrä          'ewllä                    (actually, I forgot the genitives)
trrìri          'ewllìri ('ewllri?)

And he answered,

[quote]Yes, those forms all look good. (And I'd avoid the ones in parentheses that you've questioned.) Also: trrä, 'ewllä.[/quote]



msg=143529 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 02:11:44 | u=54

Re: A collection

Tiger

Ah now that you show that all in context...  It sounds like the parenthesized forms are kangay, but probably should be avoided as bad practice most of the time.



msg=143597 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 02:50:08 | u=631

Re: A collection

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]A few follow-up questions after having gone through it completely and trying to use it for the German forum...

Are "catch" and "chase" nouns or verbs?

I'm not sure I get the concept of tok being a transitive verb. Does that mean, that I would say
*oel na'rìngit tok for "I'm in (or at?) the forest" ???

Do I understand the infixes ‹irv› and ‹ilv› after nìrangal correctly as conditional I and II respectively ???

Would you understand the ‹asy› and ‹ìsy› infixes as something along the lines what I was talking about in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/topic-time/msg128506/#msg128506]Topic: Time[/url] thread?



msg=143622 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:08:33 | u=1317

Re: A collection

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

I think I'm a little confused. So since lefpom is nfp does that mean instead of saying "Ngaru lefpom srak?" It should be "Ngaru nitram srak?" or "Ngaru lu nitram srak?"?



msg=143633 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:19:18 | u=1225

Re: A collection

neotrekkerz

[quote]Note the instructions about ke with kawkrr[/quote]

Does this mean I never traveled to Hometree is Oe kawkrr ne Kelutral ke samop?

I'll also echo Plumps83's confusion over the new tenses:

irv:  I wish I were going there
ilv:  I wish I had gone there

Also, if my interpretation of ilv is correct, how would you translate alm in my example sentence? 

alm:  I had gone there (no possibility)???



msg=143644 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:25:07 | u=3552

Re: A collection

tigermind

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=6709.msg143633#msg143633 date=1268623158]
[quote]Note the instructions about ke with kawkrr[/quote]

Does this mean I never traveled to Hometree is Oe kawkrr ne Kelutral ke samop?
[/quote]

Oel spaw futa ngeyä säfpìl lu eyawr.  C'est un peu comme <<ne...jamais>> en français, n'est-ce pas?  On peut dire <<never>> ou <<not ever>> en anglais.



msg=143659 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:33:36 | u=3552

Re: A collection

tigermind

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=6709.msg143622#msg143622 date=1268622513]
I think I'm a little confused. So since lefpom is nfp does that mean instead of saying "Ngaru lefpom srak?" It should be "Ngaru nitram srak?" or "Ngaru lu nitram srak?"?
[/quote]

We say ngaru lu fpom srak--literally, do you have happiness.  I think Karyu Pawl is saying that *Oe lefpom lu* is incorrect, but Oe nitram lu is fine.

What makes this funny to me is that if nitram is "happy" then "happily" is nìnitram.



msg=143667 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:38:21 | u=1317

Re: A collection

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

I know the majority of us used ngaru lu fpom srak but I've also seen ngaru lefpom srak a decent amount too.



msg=143682 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:45:14 | u=3552

Re: A collection

tigermind

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=6709.msg143667#msg143667 date=1268624301]
I know the majority of us used ngaru lu fpom srak but I've also seen ngaru lefpom srak a decent amount too.
[/quote]

And i don't want to offend, but i think that's a simple mistake.  It doesn't make grammatical sense to have the dative suffix on nga and then use an adjective instead of a noun.  I think it probably comes from a mishearing/misremembering of "lu fpom".



msg=143856 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 09:21:49 | u=2788

Re: A collection

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6709.msg143597#msg143597 date=1268621408]
[font=Garamond]I'm not sure I get the concept of tok being a transitive verb. Does that mean, that I would say
*oel na'rìngit tok for "I'm in (or at?) the forest" ???

[/quote]
You would, but it also means we need to reinterpret the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#New_York_Times]NYT spoken sample[/url], which has been assumed to be:

Oe( )hu Txewì trram na'rìngmì tarmok ...

If tok is transitive, then it's probably na'rìngit instead, which fits with what I hear, but I can't find an ergative -l on either oe (which is monosyllabic here) or Txewì. Perhaps he's just changed his mind about it since then?

Anyway, it mirrors the Klingon Dab, which means "dwell at, inhabit a place" and takes the place in question as its direct object: tera' vIDab I live on Earth rather than **tera'Daq jIDab using locative and intransitive markers. In fact, Klingon does this a lot, with verbs you'd not expect from an English perspective.

As for lefpom, remember that it is an adjectival derivation of fpom well-being, peace, harmony with the natural world, not "happiness" per se.



msg=143865 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 09:42:37 | u=54

Re: A collection

Tiger

I've always heard the oe there as oel and na'rìng as na'rìngit, so that just clears it up nicely.  I'd figured it was just mishearing because of the nearby sounds when I was told tok was intransitive.

Oel hu Txewì trram na'rìngit tarmok, tsole'a syeptutet atsawl frato mì sìrey.  Lu fo lehrrap.  Tsun tute spivang ko.  Oel omum.  Nari si ayoe fteke nìhawng livok.



msg=143870 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 09:46:43 | u=631

Re: A collection

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]That beeing cleared up ... can you comment on my other questions? :)



msg=143964 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:46:01 | u=21

Re: A collection

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6709.msg143597#msg143597 date=1268621408]Are "catch" and "chase" nouns or verbs?[/quote]

Verbs, sorry.  I removed too much context.

[quote]Do I understand the infixes ‹irv› and ‹ilv› after nìrangal correctly as conditional I and II respectively ???[/quote]

Since I do not know what you mean by "conditional I" and "conditional II", I cannot say.  Which language are you borrowing this terminology from?  "Conditional II" in Old Occitan is probably different from "Conditional II" in, say, some obscure Bantu language.  ;)

[quote]Would you understand the ‹asy› and ‹ìsy› infixes as something along the lines what I was talking about in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/topic-time/msg128506/#msg128506]Topic: Time[/url] thread?[/quote]

It sure looks close, doesn't it.



msg=144056 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 14:16:24 | u=631

Re: A collection

Plumps83

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6709.msg143964#msg143964 date=1268657161]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6709.msg143597#msg143597 date=1268621408]Are "catch" and "chase" nouns or verbs?[/quote]

Verbs, sorry.  I removed too much context.

[quote]Do I understand the infixes ‹irv› and ‹ilv› after nìrangal correctly as conditional I and II respectively ???[/quote]

Since I do not know what you mean by "conditional I" and "conditional II", I cannot say.  Which language are you borrowing this terminology from?  "Conditional II" in Old Occitan is probably different from "Conditional II" in, say, some obscure Bantu language.  ;)[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Sorry, now I removed too much context ;)
I meant the conditional in English sentences
If she comes, we'll go to the movies => conditional I
If I were you, I would do things differently => conditional II
The terminology is from German teaching ;D so, maybe there is a difference in defining these things...

Otherwise, thanks for the clarification.



msg=144714 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 19:52:42 | u=1225

Re: A collection

neotrekkerz

Ma wm.annis,
see [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/a-collection/msg143633/#msg143633]my post[/url] for the same question in English structures.



msg=144844 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:04:37 | u=21

Re: A collection

wm.annis

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=6709.msg143633#msg143633 date=1268623158]Does this mean I never traveled to Hometree is Oe kawkrr ne Kelutral ke samop?[/quote]

Yep.

[quote]irv:  I wish I were going there
ilv:  I wish I had gone there[/quote]

Mmm... not quite.  The nìrangal construction we got is for unattainable wishes (or at least wishes the speaker considers unattainable).  So, more like "If only I were going there!" or "If only I had gone there!"

[quote]Also, if my interpretation of ilv is correct, how would you translate alm in my example sentence? 

alm:  I had gone there (no possibility)???[/quote]

I have no idea how to interpret this.



msg=144862 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:15:25 | u=1225

Re: A collection

neotrekkerz

[quote]Mmm... not quite.  The nìrangal construction we got is for unattainable  wishes (or at least wishes the speaker considers unattainable).  So, more like "If only I were going there!" or "If only I had gone there!"[/quote]

So Oe(l) rangal (tsnì or futa) oe tsirvun sivop ne Pandora would be I wish I could travel to Pandora (even though it's impossible)?  Not sure about the transitivity of rangal.

[quote]I have no idea how to interpret this.[/quote]

Should have been more clear here.  If you saw Fo kalmä ne Kelutral, would you translate it as She had gone to Hometree?



msg=144955 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 22:03:35 | u=664

Re: A collection

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6709.msg143520#msg143520 date=1268618585]
I also asked about nouns ending in the pseudo-vowels.  Because they cannot occur in closed syllables or occur next to their consonantal siblings there are some interesting puzzles.
[/quote]

I don't understand that line:  we have krrnetx krrpe, kllfro', kllkä, etc...

I can see why "krrt" would be illegal, but not "krrti" - unless it is just a matter of Dr. Frommer's personal preference.

-Keyl




msg=144967 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 22:10:10 | u=2788

Re: A collection

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6709.msg144955#msg144955 date=1268690615]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6709.msg143520#msg143520 date=1268618585]
I also asked about nouns ending in the pseudo-vowels.  Because they cannot occur in closed syllables or occur next to their consonantal siblings there are some interesting puzzles.
[/quote]

I don't understand that line:  we have krrnetx krrpe, kllfro', kllkä, etc...

I can see why "krrt" would be illegal, but not "krrti" - unless it is just a matter of Dr. Frommer's personal preference.
[/quote]

He's referring to the process whereby r + rr > r or l + ll > l, as in poltxe (plltxe + ‹ol›. Regarding krrt versus krrti, the t is syllable-initial in the latter (first syllable is open), but syllable-final in the former (first syllable is closed).



msg=145017 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 22:46:43 | u=664

Re: A collection

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=6709.msg144967#msg144967 date=1268691010]
He's referring to the process whereby r + rr > r or l + ll > l, as in poltxe (plltxe + ‹ol›.
[/quote]

Ah, cool. That's what you were talking about.  I didn't realize that ll + r would also be "unstable".  Make sense now. :)

[quote]Regarding krrt versus krrti, the t is syllable-initial in the latter (first syllable is open), but syllable-final in the former (first syllable is closed).[/quote]

Yes, I as I said, I see why "krrt" is illegal, but I thought that he said the ones in parenthesis (including krrti and 'ewllti) should be avoided.  Or was he just talking about ('ewllru) and ('ewllri)?

-Keyl



msg=145027 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 22:50:16 | u=21

Re: A collection

wm.annis

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6709.msg145017#msg145017 date=1268693203]Yes, I as I said, I see why "krrt" is illegal, but I thought that he said the ones in parenthesis (including krrti and 'ewllti) should be avoided.  Or was he just talking about ('ewllru) and ('ewllri)?[/quote]

Only the ones I crossed out, is how I interpret Frommer's comments.  The long accusatives, trrti, 'ewllti should be fine.  I hadn't added question marks to those in the mail I sent him.



msg=145099 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 00:14:47 | u=21

Re: A collection

wm.annis

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=6709.msg144862#msg144862 date=1268687725]So Oe(l) rangal (tsnì or futa) oe tsirvun sivop ne Pandora would be I wish I could travel to Pandora (even though it's impossible)?  Not sure about the transitivity of rangal.[/quote]

We don't yet know how to use rangal fully.  He gave me enough to work with the Coyote tale, but the word "wish" was also on our list of desired words to him.  Hopefully he'll give syntax guidance in that.

[quote]Should have been more clear here.  If you saw Fo kalmä ne Kelutral, would you translate it as She had gone to Hometree?[/quote]

As it stands, I would not.  I'd translate that just as "They went to Hometree."  But, in some compound sentences, the "had gone" might make sense for an English translation, based on what I've seen of Frommer's use of the perfective in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#A_Message_From_Paul]Message from Paul[/url].



msg=145384 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 07:29:40 | u=1120

Re: A collection

roger

[quote]Here, without the –o the opening could be read, “It was the day when . . .[/quote]

Could you give the phrase without the -o meaning 'it was the day when', so that we can see the contrast?

[quote]Yola krr, txana krr, ke transten[/quote]

I assume *transten is a typo. Do you know what it's supposed to be? I'm not finding any likely candidate.



msg=145412 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 08:38:56 | u=54

Re: A collection

Tiger

Tsranten.  I actually didn't even realize it wasn't until you mentioned it, I'm apparently fluent in Na'vi typo too.



msg=145466 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:37:37 | u=1120

Re: A collection

roger

Wouldn't it be great if we could use the intentional mood in other tenses, say to distinguish

    po zamup "he fell"

from

    ??po zasmup "he took a fall" ?

That would be handy for so many things: "he coughed" because he has a cold vs. "he coughed" as an ehem warning to s.o. about to spill the beans. Etc.



msg=145478 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:57:31 | u=631

Re: A collection

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]That's an interesting aspect ... well, let's see what Frommer says to that...

I only hope that the amount of infixes that we have won't lead to confusion or that we can't distinguish the base verb underneath it all :P



msg=145491 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 11:11:11 | u=1120

Re: A collection

roger

It doesn't actually seem to be a problem. They're in set positions, mostly just in one, and after you see the forms over and over, I expect you'd get a feel for them. A bit like worrying that Turkish vowel harmony would obscure the underlying word--after a while, you don't even notice it.

Since every single verb we have apart from compounds is at most disyllabic, then they're pretty straightforward to parse: Consonant, infix, remainder of verb root.

We have 31 infixes, counting fused ones. If the intentional can be used in the non-future, that would grow to 34. There are lots of languages which have more case-number-gender forms on their nouns or PNG-TAM forms on their verbs than 34, often quite irregular, and their speakers don't have any problem!



msg=145929 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 16:40:27 | u=3552

Re: A collection

tigermind

[quote author=roger link=topic=6709.msg145466#msg145466 date=1268735857]
Wouldn't it be great if we could use the intentional mood in other tenses, say to distinguish

    po zamup "he fell"

from

    ??po zasmup "he took a fall" ?

That would be handy for so many things: "he coughed" because he has a cold vs. "he coughed" as an ehem warning to s.o. about to spill the beans. Etc.
[/quote]

Oe mllteie!



msg=145989 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 17:10:53 | u=699

Re: A collection

Doryban

Why isn't anyone writing a new pocket guide with all these updates?



msg=146104 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 18:20:54 | u=132

Re: A collection

Taronyu

[quote author=Ayzìsìt Alenantang link=topic=6709.msg145989#msg145989 date=1268759453]
Why isn't anyone writing a new pocket guide with all these updates?
[/quote]

Because of time. Karyu Amawey has tons of essays, and the Na'vi in a Nutshell thing wouldn't have the space to take this up. I've discontinued my Grammar project, and I think roger is making one for linguists, but no one is willing to put in effort for something that would be obselete tomorrow.

The wiki is our own hope now...



msg=146171 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 19:12:55 | u=1225

Re: A collection

neotrekkerz

[quote]The two future markers have alternate forms with s: -ì(s)y- and -a(s)y- . The s-forms are used optionally to indicate determination to bring something about rather than a simple prediction about the future.[/quote]

I'm wondering if we could also use these infixes to make "shall verb" sentences. 

Oe ultxa sasyi hu ngaru slä ke set.
  I shall meet with you (later), but not now.

Thoughts?



msg=146856 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-17 07:04:25 | u=1120

Re: A collection

roger

That's what "will" originally meant, though that's been obscured by time. So asy, ìsy are like the English "future" of centuries past, whereas ay, ìy are true futures as found in Latin.



msg=145127 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 00:46:49 | u=21

Words: some new, some made clear

wm.annis

A few words with comments.  Some of these are old, but have clarifications (part of speech, accenting, etc.).

pamrel n. "writing"; pamrel si for "to write"

tutan n. "male (person)"

nìayoeng adv. "like us, as we do" (pronounced as nayweng).

tam adv. "enough" (after an adjective)

äie n. "vision" (spiritual)

yol adj. NOTE NOTE NOTE — the definition of this given in the ASG is backwards!  This means "short (of time)".

sran conv. "yeah," a shortened version of srane

weyn v. "draw, illustrate"

trr adv. "today"

fratrr adv. "every day"



msg=145134 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 00:58:30 | u=1550

Re: Words: some new, some made clear

Taras

Irayo ;) Oe ke tsarmun tslivam ralit faylì'uyä a san yola krr, txana krr, ke transten sìk (ta 'upxare trramä) :) Txo yol = longtxan = much, ral tsaylì'uyä leskxawng längu :-\\ Ngian set oel olomum futa yol = short :) Oe zene eltu sivi teri tsa'u...

Ulte nìmun irayo seiyi teri lì'u a san sran sìk. Hufwa.. fralì'u oeru tsranten.. Irayo :)



msg=145140 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 01:09:37 | u=132

Re: Words: some new, some made clear

Taronyu

Added. :)



msg=145147 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 01:16:22 | u=1550

Re: Words: some new, some made clear

Taras

Tewti! Fìtxan nìwin! Kxawm ngeyä mipa fya'o a tìngop *dictionary*-yä lamu txantsana säpìl :) Irayo, oel molunge tsa'ut ulte sìyar ;)



msg=145230 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 03:31:28 | u=0

Re: Words: some new, some made clear

Swoka Swizaw

Grr. And I had just printed out the update from yesterday...damn.



msg=145282 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 04:38:54 | u=3039

Re: Words: some new, some made clear

Serena

Irayo nìtxan :)

set oe tsun pivlltxe san nìayoeng sìk luke tìsraw ftxìyä oeyä



msg=145301 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 04:56:45 | u=0

Re: Words: some new, some made clear

Eaite Randjam

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6777.msg145230#msg145230 date=1268710288]
Grr. And I had just printed out the update from yesterday...damn.
[/quote]Just goes to show you how quickly a language such as this can be added to/changed.  ^^



msg=145324 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 05:10:17 | u=0

Re: Words: some new, some made clear

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Eaite Randjam link=topic=6777.msg145301#msg145301 date=1268715405]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6777.msg145230#msg145230 date=1268710288]
Grr. And I had just printed out the update from yesterday...damn.
[/quote]Just goes to show you how quickly a language such as this can be added to/changed.  ^^
[/quote]

No kidding. I just don't know where it all comes from if Frommer CAN'T release the whole thing. It's all semantic bullshite. (Knowing, too, that he has no say.)



msg=145451 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 09:53:19 | u=54

Re: Words: some new, some made clear

Tiger

Pronunciation samples:

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/pamrel.mp3]pamrel[/url] n. "writing"; [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/pamrelsi.mp3]pamrel si[/url] for "to write"

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/tutan.mp3]tutan[/url] n. "male (person)"

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/n%c3%acayoeng.mp3]nìayoeng[/url] adv. "like us, as we do" (pronounced as nayweng).

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/n%c3%actam.mp3]nìtam[/url] adv. "enough" (after an adjective)

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/%c3%a4ie.mp3]äie[/url] n. "vision" (spiritual)

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/yol.mp3]yol[/url] adj. NOTE NOTE NOTE — the definition of this given in the ASG is backwards!  This means "short (of time)".

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/sran.mp3]sran[/url] conv. "yeah," a shortened version of srane

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/weyn.mp3]weyn[/url] v. "draw, illustrate"

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/f%c3%actrr.mp3]fìtrr[/url] adv. "today"

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/fratrr.mp3]fratrr[/url] adv. "every day"



msg=145379 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 07:09:18 | u=1120

Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks

roger

The Wiktionary appendix has now been added to Wikibooks Na'vi: [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Na%27vi-English_dictionary]http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Na%27vi-English_dictionary[/url]. A copy of the appendix remains at WP, but is not as up-to-date as the WB version, which has all the words Wm and I have released over the last few days and will be updated w any new words, whereas I don't know if WT will continue to be updated. WB does not have proper names, except for Na'vi and Eywa, as their stress has not been confirmed, nor does it have the various plant names, and won't unless Paul releases them directly. That is, apart from presumed short plural forms, which have been added in even if not attested, and presumed case forms of the pronouns, WB is strictly Frommerian, and no longer relies on the Survival Guide or game for anything, apart from a few illustrations from the songs in the SG (which are Frommerian).

It and Taronyu's dict will be cross-checked over the next few days, which should hopefully catch any errors which have crept into either.



msg=145554 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 13:00:53 | u=132

Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks

Taronyu

I am always in awe of this list. It seems so much more complete than mine. Well done, smuk.



msg=146404 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 21:36:00 | u=631

Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Impressive, I have to say that!!!
Can you explain your choice of ordering the words in that way?
k and h I get because they are somewhat related via lenition ... but putting the vowls and glottal stop together?



msg=146538 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 23:31:01 | u=984

Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]As you can see in that [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Special:PrefixIndex&prefix=Na%27vi/NE&namespace=0]sub page listing[/url], there are subdivisions for the wordlists made based on the pronunciation.
[font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEdental]dental[/url][font=Book Antiqua]s, t, tx, ts (c)
[font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NElabial]labial[/url][font=Book Antiqua]f, p, px
[font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEliquid]liquid[/url][font=Book Antiqua]l, r
[font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEnasal]nasal[/url][font=Book Antiqua]m, n, ng (g)
[font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEvelar]velar[/url][font=Book Antiqua]h, k, kx
[font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEvoiced]voiced[/url][font=Book Antiqua]v, w, y, z
[font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEvowel]vowel[/url][font=Book Antiqua]’, a, ä, e, i, ì, o, u




msg=146544 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 23:34:16 | u=54

Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks

Tiger

But ' isn't a vowel.  Some may not consider it a consonant either, but grouping it with vowels isn't terribly correct.



msg=146589 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-17 00:01:52 | u=132

Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks

Taronyu

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6794.msg146544#msg146544 date=1268782456]
But ' isn't a vowel.  Some may not consider it a consonant either, but grouping it with vowels isn't terribly correct.
[/quote]

I completely agree, but would go further. The glottal stop is a stop, just the same as t, k, p. Those subdivisions don't make the most sense: why separate out the voiced ones like that? Put the glottal stops with the velars, if you must, but not with the vowels.



msg=146851 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-17 06:44:45 | u=1120

Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks

roger

I had to divide up the dictionary because of the limitations of Wikibooks: it would only display through S even without the recent additions. I could have made each letter a separate page, but IMO it's more useful to keep things together. And the way the templates are currently designed, the link in s.t. like "haryu, short plural of karyu" will only work if haryu and karyu are on the same page. Short plurals of glottal-stop words are vowel initial, so they're on the same page. Likewise k, kx, and h, even though /h/ is not velar. I really don't want to redo the templates (or ask Sebastian Goll to redo them, since he did all the work!), and then go through and update all the links, just because of technical issues at WB which we might be able to get resolved. The names of the pages were only chosen because I had to call them something; the consonants are not classified that way anywhere in the text. If they're too confusing, I can try moving them to s.t. like "glottal series", "velar series", etc. In fact, I think I'll do that now.

Okay, VWYZ are now at "other voiced". Maybe s.o. here can come up w a better name? These are a semi-natural group because they are the most restricted consonants: They cannot occur at the end of a syllable and yet cannot initiate clusters at the beginning either. Plus they retain alphabetic order, and so are intuitive as a group that way.



msg=145399 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 08:13:40 | u=664

A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Keyltstxatsmen

Small update!
Hì'ia fmawn!

From Prof. Frommer comes a few words that will hopefully help us know better how to use <awn>.  "Nìawnomum" is not new, but I think I will put it here too.
Ta Karyu Pawl zola'u hola aylì'u a ngian srung sayi fte awngal tslivam nì'ul fyat a fkol sar <awn>it.  "Nìawnomum" ke lu mip slä oel fpìl futa fìtsengmì yìyem fì'ut kop

nìawnomum | as you know, as is known | ADV

zawnong (nì + z<awn>ong) | safely | ADV *NEW*

ftawnemkrr (ft<awn>em + krr) | past | N *NEW*

I am really excited by "ftawnemkrr" (good guess omängum fra'uti!), but I am not sure how "to pass by" can be used passively on "time".  Maybe roger or wm can help me to understand it. :)
Oeti "ftawnemkrr"il 'eykefu nitram nìtxan (sìlstana säfpìl ma omängum fra'uti!), slä ke law oeru fya a fko tsun "ftem"it sivar [desc=action-receiving-ly? :P]*[/desc]nìkemtusel hu "krr". Kxawm roger fu wm tsun srung sivi oeru fte tslivam fìlì'ut. :)

-Keyl



msg=145405 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 08:28:10 | u=3523

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Unil akxawng

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6797.msg145399#msg145399 date=1268727220]
I am really excited by "ftawnemkrr" (good guess omängum fra'uti!), but I am not sure how "to pass by" can be used passively on "time". [/quote]

Probably the Na'vi have a bit different concept of time? For them, perhaps, the time doesn't "go", but, rather, they move through it (and pass it by). From this point of view, the past seen as a "time [that we have] passed by" and, therefore, passive participle infix, seem logical.
Just my speculation.



msg=145419 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 08:51:47 | u=664

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Unil Akawng link=topic=6797.msg145405#msg145405 date=1268728090]
Probably the Na'vi have a bit different concept of time? For them, perhaps, the time doesn't "go", but, rather, they move through it (and pass it by). From this point of view, the past seen as a "time [that we have] passed by" and, therefore, passive participle infix, seem logical.
[/quote]

Nice!  I like it.  I had been thinking something similar, but it's nice to hear it from someone else.
Txantsan!  Fì'u oeru prrte' lu. Oel fparmìl 'uot tengfya nga, slä oel sterawm tsat ta tuteo a fìkem lu lefpom.

-Keyl



msg=145458 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:07:46 | u=3523

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Unil akxawng

I wonder if, the above posts considered, one could say "Oel ftamem krrit a ...", meaning "[In my past] there was a time when ..."?



msg=145461 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:12:18 | u=631

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Plumps83

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6797.msg145399#msg145399 date=1268727220]
Small update!
Hì'ia fmawn!

From Prof. Frommer comes a few words that will hopefully help us know better how to use <awn>.  "Nìawnomum" is not new, but I think I will put it here too.
Ta Karyu Pawl zola'u hola aylì'u a ngian srung sayi fte awngal tslivam nì'ul fyat a fkol sar <awn>it.  "Nìawnomum" ke lu mip slä oel fpìl futa fìtsengmì yìyem fì'ut kop

nìawnomum | as you know, as is known | ADV[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing!!! :)

Well, the components have changed, right? now that we know of the participle infix ‹awn›
it's nì + ‹awn›omum instead of something with ayoe => aw



msg=145468 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:39:18 | u=54

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Tiger

Pronunciation samples:

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/n%c3%acawnomum.mp3]nìawnomum[/url] | as you know, as is known | ADV

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/n%c3%aczawnong.mp3]nìzawnong[/url] (nì + z<awn>ong) | safely | ADV *NEW*

[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/ftawnemkrr.mp3]ftawnemkrr[/url] (ft<awn>em + krr) | past | N *NEW*



msg=145486 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 11:05:57 | u=1120

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

roger

Seems nìzawnong is irregular, as you have it, but AFAIK ftawnemkrr should be stressed on the nem.



msg=145492 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 11:15:17 | u=54

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Tiger

Yeah the stress on nìzawnong was very odd, certainly not what I expected it to be.  On ftawnemkrr, I did indeed have a stress (Admittedly not a very pronounced one) on the nem.



msg=145539 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 12:33:56 | u=21

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

wm.annis

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6797.msg145399#msg145399 date=1268727220]I am really excited by "ftawnemkrr" (good guess omängum fra'uti!), but I am not sure how "to pass by" can be used passively on "time".  Maybe roger or wm can help me to understand it. :)[/quote]

"Time keeps slippin', slippin', slippin',
into the future!"

The times which we have passed by are in the past.



msg=145566 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 13:15:23 | u=132

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Taronyu

These are great! Thank you. As you know, these will be very helpful. I've added them to my dictionary.
Faylì'u txantsan lu! Irayo. Nìawnomum, faylì'u nìtxan srawnung layu! Oel mì oeyä keltu aylì'uyä yolem faylì'u.

I think I used it right there. I hope, anyway.
Oel fpìl futa oel sìmar fì'ut nìmuiä mì tsatseng. Oe sìlpey...



msg=145676 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 14:59:29 | u=0

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Unil Akawng link=topic=6797.msg145405#msg145405 date=1268728090]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6797.msg145399#msg145399 date=1268727220]
I am really excited by "ftawnemkrr" (good guess omängum fra'uti!), but I am not sure how "to pass by" can be used passively on "time". [/quote]

Probably the Na'vi have a bit different concept of time? For them, perhaps, the time doesn't "go", but, rather, they move through it (and pass it by). From this point of view, the past seen as a "time [that we have] passed by" and, therefore, passive participle infix, seem logical.
Just my speculation.
[/quote]

Yeah, I agree with Taronyu, that is a nice thought. It, for me, confirms that the Na'vi [desc=The best word I could think of...]passive-agressively[/desc] realize themselves as free-agents.

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6797.msg145539#msg145539 date=1268742836]
"Time keeps slippin', slippin', slippin',
into the future!"

The times which we have passed by are in the past.
[/quote]

Lrrtok si oe.



msg=145722 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 15:25:48 | u=664

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=6797.msg145566#msg145566 date=1268745323]
These are great! Thank you. As you know, these will be very helpful. I've added them to my dictionary.
Faylì'u txantsan lu! Irayo. Nìawnomum, faylì'u nìtxan srawnung layu! Oel mì oeyä keltu aylì'uyä yolem faylì'u.

I think I used it right there. I hope, anyway.
Oel fpìl futa oel sìmar fì'ut nìmuiä mì tsatseng. Oe sìlpey...
[/quote]

Sorry, no infixes in nouns!  :)  Also, "these words" is the subject of "help" so <us> is probably the best thing to use here.
Oe tsap’alute si, kxanì lu [desc=between-bind-thing? :P]*[/desc]mìkamyìm'u lì'uru ‘uyä! :) Nìteng, "faylì'u" lu leykenyu "srung"ä hu <us> lu kxawm sweya 'u a fko tsun sivar mì fìtseng.

-Keyl



msg=145743 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 15:35:06 | u=132

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Taronyu

No infixes in nouns (my bad), but nouns can take subjects? ;)

Ke mìkamyìm'u mì lì'u 'uyä (oeyä kawng), slä lì'uru 'uyä tsun livu prrnenit?

Nìltsan, oe lu ye'rin nitram. :) 



msg=145926 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 16:39:30 | u=664

Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=6797.msg145743#msg145743 date=1268753706]
No infixes in nouns (my bad), but nouns can take subjects? ;)

Ke mìkamyìm'u mì lì'u 'uyä (oeyä kawng), slä lì'uru 'uyä tsun livu prrnenit?

Nìltsan, oe lu ye'rin nitram. :) 

[/quote]

haha, touché! 

haha, oeyä kxetse!



msg=148398 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 02:28:43 | u=21

Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

wm.annis

I'm currently working on a very dense grammar summary of what we currently know about Na'vi grammar.  Karyu Pawl was kind enough to take a look at it and make a few comments.  The most important new pieces of data to come out of those comments are:

"After i, u, and o, it’s just ä, not yä." (the genitive of words ending in vowels)

I had this in the document: "Third person inanimate cases, tsaw, tsal, tsat, tsar(u), gen.?, top.?"  His note, "As you can guess, tseyä and tsari, although I haven’t had occasion to use them yet."



msg=148408 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 02:50:43 | u=664

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Keyltstxatsmen

Nice!  Are we assuming that all pronouns end in "-eyä"?
Txantsan!  Kxawm law awngaru fwa [desc=instead-of-name-words]*[/desc]aylì'u tuptstxoä zene ’ivi’a fa "-eyä" srak?

-Keyl



msg=148410 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 02:54:22 | u=984

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]Good to know.
Are there any notes about the case endings like -ti/-t; depending on the following word or taken by personal preferences?
What about pronouns like “whose”, *pesuyä or *tuyäpe edit or even (following Keyls assumption) *peseyä or *teyäpe?



msg=148554 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 08:42:58 | u=401

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Harìghawnu


[quote]"After i, u, and o, it’s just ä, not yä." (the genitive of words ending in vowels)[/quote]

As we know from examples, the other cases do not use their "non-vowel-form" (-ìl, -ur, -it) after i, u and o. So it's just a "genitive speciality". Really a weird case in Na'vi!

By the way: I'm looking forward to see your concise grammar published!



msg=148585 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 10:09:27 | u=2788

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6892.msg148398#msg148398 date=1268879323]
I had this in the document: "Third person inanimate cases, tsaw, tsal, tsat, tsar(u), gen.?, top.?"  His note, "As you can guess, tseyä and tsari, although I haven’t had occasion to use them yet."
[/quote]
So where does this leave the stand-alone tsa hinted at [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Indirect_Question_.22Where.22]here[/url]? Is it interchangeable with tsaw? Also, do we know whether *mesa(w), *pxesa(w) and derivatives thereof are kosher?



msg=148592 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 10:35:45 | u=54

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Tiger

Seems like tsa always gets something following it, with a -w if nothing else.  I don't see why mesaw/etc wouldn't be allowed.



msg=148703 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 12:43:00 | u=21

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

wm.annis

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=6892.msg148410#msg148410 date=1268880862]
Are there any notes about the case endings like -ti/-t; depending on the following word or taken by personal preferences?[/quote]

In the document I say that the choice between the long and short endings in the dative and patientive (i.e. -ru vs. -r and -ti vs -t) "appears to be largely a matter of style and euphony."  He made no comment on that statement.



msg=148710 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 12:52:49 | u=631

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]And what about the rules which follows what?
Usually the approach was -l -r(u) -t(i) after vowels and -ìl -ur(u) -it after consonants ... now we have forms like
Kem(ì)ri a ngaru prrte' ke lu, Tsakem rä’ä sivi aylaheru.
where Frommer himself states kemri is a possible option... is that only possible after nasals?



msg=148718 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 13:00:11 | u=1120

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

roger

We also have tsawl and tsawt, so the question is whether *tsa exists as an indep. PN.

The new genitive rule appears to occur in the film, with Omatikayoä. I'm going by ear here, and wasn't able to make much sense of it before now.



msg=148828 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 15:13:26 | u=1751

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

blueme

The way I see it is that the POSS ending is universally [desc=our sole vowel-based case ending]-ä[/desc], but when it follows another lax vowel, you insert a [desc=y][j][/desc] to ease pronunciation. Then, what we see here is not really an exception, but the influence of a phonotactic rule.

Of course, as soon as someone points out a single occurrence where there are two lax vowels side by side in a word, my whole theory goes down the drain. :D

(I'm aware that tenseness and laxness are undefined with respect to Na’vi, but [u], [o], and [i] would be considered tense in English, just as [desc=i's lax pair in Na’vi too][ɪ][/desc], [desc=it disappears anyway because of the no-doubled-vowels rule][æ][/desc], and [desc=explicitly defined as such by Frommer in the LL post][ɛ][/desc] would be lax. I think [a] could go either way, so I just assumed it would be lax too.)



msg=148887 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 15:45:58 | u=401

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Harìghawnu


[quote]where there are two lax vowels side by side in a word[/quote]

e. g.
mu [mu.ˈi.æ] (Adj) proper, fair, right, justified.
n [ni.ˈæ] (Vtr) grab.

and here are all three of them:

äie [æ.ˈi.ɛ] (N) vision (spiritual sense).




msg=148900 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 15:53:13 | u=1751

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

blueme

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6892.msg148887#msg148887 date=1268927158]

[quote]where there are two lax vowels side by side in a word[/quote]

e. g.
mu [mu.ˈi.æ] (Adj) proper, fair, right, justified.
n [ni.ˈæ] (Vtr) grab.

and here are all three of them:

äie [æ.ˈi.ɛ] (N) vision (spiritual sense).


[/quote]

Not good, because [i] isn't lax. :D



msg=148939 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 16:22:44 | u=401

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Harìghawnu


Oh, sorry, my bad. Well then your rule seems to be hard to beat, maybe with:

Katot taftxu oel nìean nìrim (Weaving Song)




msg=148941 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 16:25:12 | u=1120

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

roger

I just figured it was -ä after high & back vowels (which would cover diphthongs and rr, ll as well) and -yä elsewhere.



msg=149070 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 17:51:30 | u=3552

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

tigermind

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6892.msg148592#msg148592 date=1268908545]
Seems like tsa always gets something following it, with a -w if nothing else.  I don't see why mesaw/etc wouldn't be allowed.
[/quote]

Wait, i'm confused.  I thought tsaw was the short form of tsa'u--isn't tsa its own thing?



msg=149094 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 18:01:36 | u=54

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Tiger

We've never actually seen "tsa" on it's own from a canon source.  Only as a prefix, or with case endings.  Not sure on tsaw vs tsa'u.



msg=149104 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 18:04:21 | u=1225

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

neotrekkerz

Have we seen tsaw somewhere?  I can't recall.



msg=149548 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 23:13:03 | u=1120

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

roger

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg149070#msg149070 date=1268934690]
I thought tsaw was the short form of tsa'u--isn't tsa its own thing?
[/quote]

Yes, that's right. Tsa just isn't attested without a suffix. Before Wm's addition, we had this:

[quote author=Frommer]
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.
[/quote]



msg=149568 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 23:38:05 | u=3552

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

tigermind

[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149548#msg149548 date=1268953983]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg149070#msg149070 date=1268934690]
I thought tsaw was the short form of tsa'u--isn't tsa its own thing?
[/quote]

Yes, that's right. Tsa just isn't attested without a suffix. Before Wm's addition, we had this:

[quote author=Frommer]
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.
[/quote]

[/quote]

Okay, that makes sense.  Irayo, ma tsmukan.



msg=149587 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 00:13:36 | u=1751

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

blueme

[quote author=Frommer]
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.
[/quote]

Since it has been established that diphthong-final words get case endings like consonant-final ones (i.e one that starts with a vowel), I don't understand why these aren't tsawit and tsawìri...



msg=149597 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 00:37:11 | u=1120

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

roger

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6892.msg149587#msg149587 date=1268957616]
Since it has been established that diphthong-final words get case endings like consonant-final ones (i.e one that starts with a vowel), I don't understand why these aren't tsawit and tsawìri...
[/quote]

Except that it hasn't been established. That was just the simplest predictive explanation that fit the forms known at the time. But now we also have kemri as an alt to kemìri.



msg=149603 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 00:41:39 | u=1751

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

blueme

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6892.msg149094#msg149094 date=1268935296]
We've never actually seen "tsa" on it's own from a canon source.  Only as a prefix, or with case endings.  Not sure on tsaw vs tsa'u.
[/quote]

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#February_16_2010_Combo]We kinda have.[/url]

[quote=Frommer]For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.[/quote]

Here, he refers to tsa as a standalone word (not a prefix), and we see it used with a postpositional affix (and not a case ending.)


[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg148941#msg148941 date=1268929512]
I just figured it was -ä after high & back vowels (which would cover diphthongs and rr, ll as well) and -yä elsewhere.
[/quote]

[ɪ] is also high, so this might not work, unless there are no nouns ending in an ì, which would explain why F didn't mention it.


[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6892.msg148939#msg148939 date=1268929364]

Oh, sorry, my bad. Well then your rule seems to be hard to beat, maybe with:

Katot taftxu oel nìean nìrim (Weaving Song)[/quote]

You managed neatly, though. :D Had I been right, this would be *nìyean. I could still work around it, but creating complicated phonotactics to explain an few simple exceptions just doesn't seem to be worth it. :D



msg=149632 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 01:15:41 | u=21

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149597#msg149597 date=1268959031]Except that it hasn't been established. That was just the simplest predictive explanation that fit the forms known at the time. But now we also have kemri as an alt to kemìri. [/quote]

And it's really not clear what motivates different endings for words ending in consonants anyway — no rules of phonotactics are broken if you cram any ol' ending onto any ol' word.  This puzzled me way back when we had only a few Na'vi sentences.  In particular, fìskxawngìri.  The word fìskxawngri is also legal (according to the sound rules).  So why do different sorts of nouns get different sorts of endings?  I assume some prosodic consideration is in play, but I don't know for sure.



msg=149807 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 05:35:25 | u=1120

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

roger

ì isn't high, but only almost high. But we have a problem here, because -yä is also attested after i, for example in slu Na'viyä hapxì in Jake's dialog. Of course, it is Jake, and there are other discrepancies there, such as eu for ew, but there's also Utral Aymokriyä in Paul's current vocab spreadsheet.



msg=149921 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 10:49:08 | u=1120

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6892.msg149632#msg149632 date=1268961341]
[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149597#msg149597 date=1268959031]Except that it hasn't been established. That was just the simplest predictive explanation that fit the forms known at the time. But now we also have kemri as an alt to kemìri. [/quote]

And it's really not clear what motivates different endings for words ending in consonants anyway — no rules of phonotactics are broken if you cram any ol' ending onto any ol' word.  This puzzled me way back when we had only a few Na'vi sentences.  In particular, fìskxawngìri.  The word fìskxawngri is also legal (according to the sound rules).  So why do different sorts of nouns get different sorts of endings?  I assume some prosodic consideration is in play, but I don't know for sure.
[/quote]

I need to take some of that back. As for kem(ì)ri, consider the context: a variant of the Golden Rule. The loss of the ì may be due to meter rather than to a general rule; we see similar things in the songs, where for example reduces to s. Whenever I've seen Paul put a letter in parentheses, it's either a known variation (such as -r(u)), or meter is involved.

And what are the only other cases of case-suffix vowel loss after anything other than a simple vowel? Tsawt and tsawri may have these forms because they are colloquial contractions of tsa'ut, tsa'uri, which are perfectly regular with those forms. So that may be the reason for the exception, rather than any free variation.

Do we have any other cases where we cannot predict the case forms based on the final phoneme of the word, orthographic C vs V? Other than the "strong" accusative in invariable -ti ?

As for why they behave this way, grammatical affixes tend to have a much simpler phonology than the lexicon. A strong tendency toward a CVCV structure would not at all be unusual.



msg=149929 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 11:05:34 | u=54

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Tiger

The interesting thing about the golden rule is that if the (ì) were marked because of meter...  It would need to be in there to KEEP the meter.

[font=Courier]Kem-(ì)-ri  a nga-ru prr-te' ke lu
Tsa-kem rä-'ä si -vi ay -la -he-ru

But the running hypothesis is that kem would require the ìri form, so why would that need to be marked as such?  Even odder is that if he DID want to drop it....  He could easily have used the contracted "aylaru" on the second line to keep the meter, admittedly at the loss of a rhyming syllable at the end.



msg=149965 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 11:43:38 | u=1120

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6892.msg149929#msg149929 date=1268996734]
The interesting thing about the golden rule is that if the (ì) were marked because of meter...  It would need to be in there to KEEP the meter.
[/quote]

That's not how I see it:

    [font=Courier]Kem-ri-a-nga-ru-prr-te'-ke-lu
  Tsa-kem-rä--si-vi-ay-la-he-ru

  = o , , o , o , ? ,
    o , , o , o , o , ,

Which works if we stress ke and contract to aylaru as you suggested. It's not very satisfying as verse (I prefer the other version, which is rather elegant), but kemìri would add an extra syllable, making it o , , , o in the first line.



msg=150053 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 13:03:33 | u=132

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Taronyu

So, do we have any cases of o -> e \\ _yä?



msg=150086 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 13:33:50 | u=54

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Tiger

You mean besides "Oeri ta peyä fahew akewong ontu teya längu"?



msg=150115 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 13:52:01 | u=401

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Harìghawnu

[quote]So, do we have any cases of o -> e \\ _yä?[/quote]

holpxay ayzekwäyä feyä "the number of their fingers"

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Some_Conjunctions_and_Adverbs]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Some_Conjunctions_and_Adverbs[/url]



msg=150681 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 19:57:56 | u=0

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149807#msg149807 date=1268976925]
ì isn't high, but only almost high. But we have a problem here, because -yä is also attested after i, for example in slu Na'viyä hapxì in Jake's dialog. Of course, it is Jake, and there are other discrepancies there, such as eu for ew, but there's also Utral Aymokriyä in Paul's current vocab spreadsheet.
[/quote]

I assume that you posting this means that you've sat upon your seat and, hopefully with no one else around to wonder if you're "having a moment," rendered these sounds to yourself. If so, I also assume that you think the glide from {i} to [{] is distinct in sound from {i} to [j{]. Personally, I don't hear it, if I don't try to...

Essentially, I feel that the canon CAN be debated as to whether the glide ([j]) is actually there or not. We've not had any examples, as far as I know, that really hindge on whether of not the /y/ is there in situations like you've listed.



msg=150830 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 22:03:39 | u=3552

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

tigermind

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6892.msg150681#msg150681 date=1269028676]
[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149807#msg149807 date=1268976925]
ì isn't high, but only almost high. But we have a problem here, because -yä is also attested after i, for example in slu Na'viyä hapxì in Jake's dialog. Of course, it is Jake, and there are other discrepancies there, such as eu for ew, but there's also Utral Aymokriyä in Paul's current vocab spreadsheet.
[/quote]

I assume that you posting this means that you've sat upon your seat and, hopefully with no one else around to wonder if you're "having a moment," rendered these sounds to yourself. If so, I also assume that you think the glide from {i} to [{] is distinct in sound from {i} to [j{]. Personally, I don't hear it, if I don't try to...

Essentially, I feel that the canon CAN be debated as to whether the glide ([j]) is actually there or not. We've not had any examples, as far as I know, that really hindge on whether of not the /y/ is there in situations like you've listed.
[/quote]

I don't know if this makes any difference, but maybe we see this "long" genitive attaching to Na'vi and Aymokri because these are parts of "proper nouns"?



msg=150927 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 23:13:36 | u=1120

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

roger

Hey, I got an answer on this one!

[quote author=Frommer]As you've said, there's not much difference between -iä and -iyä (perhaps no difference at all), so it's essentially a spelling question.

Here's what's out there:

-iä

1. muiä (LEXICON)
2. niä (LEXICON)
3. menariä (VIDEO GAME)

(Fmawnit menariä ke tsun oe spivaw. 'I can't believe what I'm seeing with my eyes.')

-iyä

4. Na'viyä (SCRIPT)
5. Aymokriyä (LEXICON, SCRIPT)
6. ritiyä (VIDEO GAME)

1 and 2 are roots, so they shouldn't be a problem. 3 through 6 are genitive forms. So if the official spelling is -iyä, the only outlier is 3, which I'll change.

Bottom line: the genitive for bases ending in -i is -yä. Apologies for going back and forth on this.

One more inconsistency:

For bases in -a, the gen. was -yä in 3 cases (tompayä, Eywayä, tìska'ayä), but there was also Omatikayaä. I feel comfortable leaving that last word alone, as an exceptional form: *Omatikayayä doesn't seem stable--I can see yayä > yaä.[/quote]



msg=150986 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 00:46:00 | u=0

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg150830#msg150830 date=1269036219]
I don't know if this makes any difference, but maybe we see this "long" genitive attaching to Na'vi and Aymokri because these are parts of "proper nouns"?
[/quote]

Sure, but not all proper nouns will end in a vowel... /yä/ can't attach to consonants.



msg=151618 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 16:55:27 | u=3552

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

tigermind

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6892.msg150986#msg150986 date=1269045960]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg150830#msg150830 date=1269036219]
I don't know if this makes any difference, but maybe we see this "long" genitive attaching to Na'vi and Aymokri because these are parts of "proper nouns"?
[/quote]

Sure, but not all proper nouns will end in a vowel... /yä/ can't attach to consonants.
[/quote]

Of course, ma smuk.  I only meant that maybe there's a rule that proper nouns ending in a vowel always take the long form, instead of sometimes taking the short.  But it seems we have an answer from Karyu Pawl, in any case.



msg=151822 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 19:37:15 | u=0

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg151618#msg151618 date=1269104127]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6892.msg150986#msg150986 date=1269045960]
Sure, but not all proper nouns will end in a vowel... /yä/ can't attach to consonants.
[/quote]

Of course, ma smuk.  I only meant that maybe there's a rule that proper nouns ending in a vowel always take the long form, instead of sometimes taking the short.  But it seems we have an answer from Karyu Pawl, in any case.
[/quote]

Sorry. I figure you knew that... :)



msg=153985 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 14:50:25 | u=1751

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

blueme

[quote author=Frommer]As you've said, there's not much difference between -iä and -iyä (perhaps no difference at all), so it's essentially a spelling question.

Here's what's out there:

-iä

1. muiä (LEXICON)
2. niä (LEXICON)
3. menariä (VIDEO GAME)

(Fmawnit menariä ke tsun oe spivaw. 'I can't believe what I'm seeing with my eyes.')

-iyä

4. Na'viyä (SCRIPT)
5. Aymokriyä (LEXICON, SCRIPT)
6. ritiyä (VIDEO GAME)

1 and 2 are roots, so they shouldn't be a problem. 3 through 6 are genitive forms. So if the official spelling is -iyä, the only outlier is 3, which I'll change.

Bottom line: the genitive for bases ending in -i is -yä. Apologies for going back and forth on this.

One more inconsistency:

For bases in -a, the gen. was -yä in 3 cases (tompayä, Eywayä, tìska'ayä), but there was also Omatikayaä. I feel comfortable leaving that last word alone, as an exceptional form: *Omatikayayä doesn't seem stable--I can see yayä > yaä.[/quote]

So is it -yä again for all V-ending stems? Or...? ???



msg=154019 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 15:10:48 | u=1225

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

neotrekkerz

[quote]Bottom line: the genitive for bases ending in -i is -yä. Apologies for going back and forth on this.[/quote]

I take that to mean the o and u still take only -ä, not -yä



msg=154851 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 01:00:56 | u=1120

Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw

roger

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=6892.msg154019#msg154019 date=1269270648]
[quote]Bottom line: the genitive for bases ending in -i is -yä. Apologies for going back and forth on this.[/quote]

I take that to mean the o and u still take only -ä, not -yä
[/quote]

Correct. And after i it's pretty much just an orthographic convention.



msg=150759 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 21:07:58 | u=401

Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki

Harìghawnu



The canon-page doesn't seem to be updated any longer. The last entry there is about the Tag Question, dated March 1. Of course I could update it myself, but my time is limited and I'm quite buisy with the LEP and the updating of our Wiki-Vocabulary. Besides that I'm trying to write a Na'vi-poem in order to enhance the corpus of Na'vi-literature a bit.

So this is a kind request to everyone: If there is new stuff released by K. Pawl known to you, please don't post it just here in the forum somewhere, but also in the wiki-canon! The purpose of the wiki is to collect all things connected to Frommer's Na'vi into one point, where it is easily accessible for everyone. Don't let this idea die ... and don't lean just on the wiki-editors to do all the work. We are as busy as possible, but work is much more efficient, if many people take care of certain aspects and contribute to the wiki.

Besides that: The canon-page got very large ... so we should think about reorganizing it. Maybe we could simply open another one, like "Canon 1 (Dec. 2009 - Feb 2010)", "Canon 2 (Mar 2010 - ...)". Suggestions?



msg=150963 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 00:09:58 | u=21

Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki

wm.annis

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6963.msg150759#msg150759 date=1269032878]Besides that: The canon-page got very large ... so we should think about reorganizing it. Maybe we could simply open another one, like "Canon 1 (Dec. 2009 - Feb 2010)", "Canon 2 (Mar 2010 - ...)". Suggestions?[/quote]

A new arrangement for new Epistles from Karyu Pawl would be a good idea, but I will be very sad if we reorganize the data currently there.  There are many, many links from the grammar and vocabulary pages into the existing Corpus and Canon.



msg=151100 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 07:50:51 | u=401

Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki

Harìghawnu


[quote]but I will be very sad if we reorganize the data currently there.  There are many, many links from the grammar and vocabulary pages into the existing Corpus and Canon.[/quote]

I completely agree. It would be horrible to have to change all the links! So don't touch the existing parts.

How about the newer ones? I'd like to see a new page installed (maybe accessible via a link on top of the existing canon page), named something like "Epistles from Karyu Pawl", and than separate pages accessible from there (not just articles of this page!) grouped by date, e. g. "2010, March - Mai", ...



msg=152291 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-21 06:31:22 | u=4754

Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Maybe what to do is set a date for a 'clean break' from the current way of doing things, say April 1st. On that date, a second canon page would begin. This page could be organized completely differently, perhaps containing the contents of the old canon reorganized in a way that is more logical and relevant going forward. From that point on, all the existing links into the old canon would still be valid, but subsequent users could link to either old or new material on the new page.



msg=152307 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-21 07:11:15 | u=401

Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki

Harìghawnu

Good ideas, ma 'eylan.

The only problem I see about this is, that a "more logical" way would include subsections, e. g. "Infixes", "Semantics", etc. And K. Pawl messages often include a mix of all. So the person, who wants to contribute stuff to the wiki, had to split it up and to put it into the different sections etc. I'm afraid, that this "plus-work" would cause the people to do even fewer contributions than they do at all.

Especially in the last two weeks (after the completition of the first round of the LEP) there was obviously much communication with K. Pawl, because here in the forum many snippets about updates were (and are) posted. But none of them found it's way to the wiki. On the one hand, there are more and more postings like "I'm quite sure that this was mentioned by Frommer somewhere, but I can't find it" or "Are there any approved examples for XYZ?", but on the other hand the wiki-canon - a tool, where such problems could be solved easily - is neglected.

Well ... I can't do much more, than kindly ask again all people to shuffle new stuff to the wiki at sight. Since I think, that we can't wait until April (because there's already so much stuff not in the wiki), I'll set up just a new canon-page today and start to transfer forum-stuff to that page myself. Any help is appreciated.




msg=153014 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-21 18:59:10 | u=984

Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]Ehw, I have tried to cover last updates [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=User:Ochristi/Construction/Update_Log/2010-03]here[/url]. Certainly I am aware of the different style compared to the canon.



msg=153320 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-21 22:53:41 | u=4754

Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6963.msg152307#msg152307 date=1269155475]
Good ideas, ma 'eylan.

The only problem I see about this is, that a "more logical" way would include subsections, e. g. "Infixes", "Semantics", etc. And K. Pawl messages often include a mix of all. So the person, who wants to contribute stuff to the wiki, had to split it up and to put it into the different sections etc. I'm afraid, that this "plus-work" would cause the people to do even fewer contributions than they do at all.[/quote]

Although what you suggest is an *extremely* good idea, it isn't quite what I had in mind. The subdivisions I had envisioned more of a 'interrupted-chronological subdivision, breaking the canon into nantang-sized pieces vs the existing palulukan-sized piece. Or, just start a second section (which I think is what you are doing, correct me if I am wrong) page. When full, start a third page, etc.

It would be a worthy project for someone to sort through all the Frommerian posts, and build an index of the content. Since the canon pages are essentially static, these pages could be quite permanent, since the links into the canon would not change with time. This would not have to be you doing this, but someone who is interested, and who has tthe time to do it. (This does not include me right now!)

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu]Especially in the last two weeks (after the completition of the first round of the LEP) there was obviously much communication with K. Pawl, because here in the forum many snippets about updates were (and are) posted. But none of them found it's way to the wiki. On the one hand, there are more and more postings like "I'm quite sure that this was mentioned by Frommer somewhere, but I can't find it" or "Are there any approved examples for XYZ?", but on the other hand the wiki-canon - a tool, where such problems could be solved easily - is neglected.

Well ... I can't do much more, than kindly ask again all people to shuffle new stuff to the wiki at sight. Since I think, that we can't wait until April (because there's already so much stuff not in the wiki), I'll set up just a new canon-page today and start to transfer forum-stuff to that page myself. Any help is appreciated.[/quote]

First of all, I want to give you a long-overdue Irayo for your work on the LEP. While a lot of debate was going on on what should and what shouldn't make the list, you were just quietly moving stuff over without complaining  :) So, it is OK to move stuff over to the wiki-canon without being a moderator, etc.? I would like to help (when I have time), but don't want to step on any toes, stick my nose where it doesn't belong and risk 'getting my queue cut off'!



msg=153720 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 08:31:58 | u=401

Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki

Harìghawnu

[quote]breaking the canon into nantang-sized pieces vs the existing palulukan-sized piece. [/quote]

;D

[quote]Or, just start a second section (which I think is what you are doing, correct me if I am wrong) page. When full, start a third page, etc.[/quote]

That's how I did it now. There's a link in the head of the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]Canon-Page[/url] now, which guides to a page opened to be filled with the information we get from March until June.

[quote]index of the content.[/quote]

Well, this would be a really nice "plus". But to have all updates collected into the canon-page is already a great help itself.

[quote]So, it is OK to move stuff over to the wiki-canon without being a moderator, etc.? [/quote]

Yes, it is. Just get your bearings looking at the way it is done already, e. g. [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon/2010/March-June]here[/url]. It's no big deal with the canon, not much formatting or alike. (It's different with some other sections of the wiki, e. g. the vocabulary, where there is something like a non-published "style guide" to observe, in order to maintain consistency.) So if you have some time to contribute to the canon-wiki, this is appreciated very much. Irayo!




msg=153517 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 02:03:08 | u=21

Why is this night...

wm.annis

Frommer did a translation of the traditional Seder questions: [url=http://whyisthisnight.com/addl-more.html#na%27vi]Fìtxon na ton alahe nìwotx pelun ke lu teng?[/url]

There's a little vocab we can extract from this.  There is also audio!



msg=153533 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 02:24:18 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

Fancy!

Words I picked up and contextually guessed meanings (Ignoring loan words for the moment):

fkxen - n. Vegetable (food)
syä'ä - adj. Bitter
yemfpay si - v. Dip into liquid
yemfpay - n. Dipping, immersion (Into a liquid)
keng - adv. Even (Ex. Didn't even try)
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
*-lo - Multplicative number suffix (Once, twice, thrice, etc)
heyn - v. Sit
pxim - adv. Erectly, uprightly
pxim - adj. Erect, upright
tuvon - v. Lean
fya'o - adv. In a manner
letrrtrr - adj. Ordinary
'eoio - adv. Ceremoniously
'eoio - adj. Cerimonious
rìk - n. Leaf
lerìk - adj. Leafy

Edit: Fixed and verified correct now, hu irayo Pawlur.



msg=153569 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 02:55:55 | u=3051

Re: Why is this night...

Goplat

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
[/quote]
In [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/[/url] it was said that "once" was 'awlie... ma Roger, tsun nga sleykivu law fìtxelet srak? :)



msg=153577 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 03:04:49 | u=1225

Re: Why is this night...

neotrekkerz

I'll also add to the vocab list:

lerìk leafy
*rìk leaf



msg=153586 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 03:14:55 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

Oh right, I missed that one.

[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=7120.msg153569#msg153569 date=1269226555]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
[/quote]
In [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/[/url] it was said that "once" was 'awlie... ma Roger, tsun nga sleykivu law fìtxelet srak? :)
[/quote]That is certainly a head scratcher.  They bot are l(vowels) but lie vs lo...  Perhaps a subtle difference in meaning, or they -lo is adjective forms?  Though the usage there seems fairly adverbial...



msg=153589 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 03:20:35 | u=0

Re: Why is this night...

Swoka Swizaw

Wow. How diverse a collection of words. Frommer does not disappoint, or fail to not surprise with what he has next. And, Taronyu isn't here yet...don't I feel ahead of the game. :P

BTW, I like Hebrew as much as the next tute, but "hamets," "matsa?" I chuckled.



msg=153597 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 03:42:41 | u=3552

Re: Why is this night...

tigermind

letrrtrr

So, this would be an example of, erm, reduplication?  [desc=still not a linguist!]Is that what it's called[/desc]?

Edit:

[quote]
nì'eoio - adv. Ceremoniously
*'eoio - n. Ceremony
[/quote]

Ma tsmukan, it says at the bottom of the page that eoio is "ceremonious" (adj.)



msg=153603 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 04:13:54 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

At the bottom of what page?



msg=153604 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 04:16:11 | u=1317

Re: Why is this night...

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

He means at the bottom of the Na'vi section I think.



msg=153609 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 04:25:27 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

That.... was not there when I viewed it first.  Handy!  I reloaded and they magically appeared!



msg=153631 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 05:07:29 | u=3552

Re: Why is this night...

tigermind

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=7120.msg153604#msg153604 date=1269231371]
He means at the bottom of the Na'vi section I think.
[/quote]

Fi'u oeru ke tsranten nìtxan, slä tute oe lu =P



msg=153679 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 06:35:23 | u=1120

Re: Why is this night...

roger

[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=7120.msg153569#msg153569 date=1269226555]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
[/quote]
In [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/[/url] it was said that "once" was 'awlie... ma Roger, tsun nga sleykivu law fìtxelet srak? :)
[/quote]

All I know is the gloss: 'awlie = "once". We don't have an example in context. English "once" has various uses.



msg=153681 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 06:36:15 | u=1120

Re: Why is this night...

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
syä'ä - adj. Bitter
yemfpay si - v. Dip into liquid (yemfpay - n. ?)
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
...
[/quote]

Where are you getting the stress from?



msg=153684 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 06:43:35 | u=1225

Re: Why is this night...

neotrekkerz

I just noticed 'awlie isn't in Taronyu's dictionary.



msg=153685 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 06:44:15 | u=984

Re: Why is this night...

okrìsti

[quote author=roger link=topic=7120.msg153679#msg153679 date=1269239723]All I know is the gloss: 'awlie = "once". We don't have an example in context. English "once" has various uses.[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]Besides other languages form multiplicative numerals differently for adverbial and adjective usage.



msg=153698 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 07:07:18 | u=1120

Re: Why is this night...

roger

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=7120.msg153685#msg153685 date=1269240255]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7120.msg153679#msg153679 date=1269239723]All I know is the gloss: 'awlie = "once". We don't have an example in context. English "once" has various uses.[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]Besides other languages form multiplicative numerals differently for adverbial and adjective usage.
[/quote]

But both are adverbial: 'awlie glossed ADV, and 'awlo used that way.



msg=153700 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 07:09:51 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=7120.msg153681#msg153681 date=1269239775]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
syä'ä - adj. Bitter
yemfpay si - v. Dip into liquid (yemfpay - n. ?)
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
...
[/quote]

Where are you getting the stress from?
[/quote]Oeyä memikyun.

The only one of those I'm not sure of is yemfpay, because the first time he says it, it's a little ambiguous, but the second time it's pretty clearly stressed second syllable.



msg=153810 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 12:05:19 | u=631

Re: Why is this night...

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]yemfpay is indeed very odd - could that be "a plunge" ? "the dipping" - very unusual to have a verb-noun compound to create the verb with a si-construction

Could the f be the same from tafkip / fkip ?


[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]nì'eoio - adv. Ceremoniously
'eoio - adj. Cerimonious[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Did you notice that the apostrophe is not there in the explanations? Is this an error in the transcription?



msg=153988 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 14:51:43 | u=401

Re: Why is this night...

Harìghawnu

[quote]letrrtrr
So, this would be an example of, erm, reduplication? [/quote]

Wow! Maybe this is the solution of my [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/my-dictionary/msg151096/#msg151096]daily-(täglich)-vs.-daily-(alltäglich)-problem[/url]. So maybe, "letrr" is more about time (day by day), while "letrrtrr" is more about routine.

Besides that, we got some new words ... I'd better go and put them into the wiki-vocabulary.




msg=154145 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 16:34:01 | u=21

Re: Why is this night...

wm.annis

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7120.msg153597#msg153597 date=1269229361]
letrrtrr

So, this would be an example of, erm, reduplication? [/quote]

It would, indeed.



msg=154448 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:02:33 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7120.msg153810#msg153810 date=1269259519]
[font=Garamond]Did you notice that the apostrophe is not there in the explanations? Is this an error in the transcription?
[/quote]I did notice...  But we have no example of a glottal stop being added with nì...  Then again we also have no examples of nì on a word starting with e...  For now I'm assuming it is a transcription thing, but that's something else to add to our list of questions.



msg=154485 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:34:15 | u=3051

Re: Why is this night...

Goplat

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg154448#msg154448 date=1269284553]Then again we also have no examples of nì on a word starting with e...[/quote]Sure we do: from the Weaving Song, Katot täftxu oel, nìean nìrim.



msg=154491 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:40:21 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

Blast you weaving song! *shakes fist* I never think to check that one and it's not posted online for copyright reasons.



msg=154532 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:07:42 | u=401

Re: Why is this night...

Harìghawnu


[quote]it's not posted online for copyright reasons.[/quote]

Since it's one of our major sources it's maybe completely given in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Vocabulary]Wiki Vocabulary[/url] in little snippets. Using the browser's search function (nìe...) delivers of course "nìean" too.



msg=154535 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:08:59 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

I made the mistake of relying on the formal vocabulary list rather than derived words used in various sources.  I keep forgetting not all derivations are formally defined.



msg=154571 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:38:08 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

Ok I think that is the quickest response I've gotten to a question by far.  I had the stress on yemfpay wrong (See, told you it was the one I was not sure about), but Frommer confirmed the rest were correct.  The list of eoio was indeed a mistake and it should have been 'eoio.  Yemfpay si is the verb for dipping, yemfpay is a noun for dipping or immersion.



msg=154661 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:30:31 | u=21

Re: Why is this night...

wm.annis

One of the most striking grammatical features of this new bit of Frommerian corpus is a compound adverbial phrase: nìfya'o letrrtrr Glossed "in-manner ordinary."  The adverbial prefix encompasses not just fya'o, but the phrase fya'o letrrtrr.



msg=154665 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:32:20 | u=631

Re: Why is this night...

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]So, it's yemfpay ? Could you change that in your original post to avoid confusion? Irayo :) and thanks for sharing



msg=154854 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 01:04:45 | u=1120

Re: Why is this night...

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7120.msg154661#msg154661 date=1269293431]
One of the most striking grammatical features of this new bit of Frommerian corpus is a compound adverbial phrase: nìfya'o letrrtrr Glossed "in-manner ordinary."  The adverbial prefix encompasses not just fya'o, but the phrase fya'o letrrtrr.
[/quote]

Yes, I thought that was worth a note too.



msg=154875 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 02:07:00 | u=21

Re: Why is this night...

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=7120.msg154854#msg154854 date=1269306285]Yes, I thought that was worth a note too. [/quote]

And he comments:

[quote="Karyu Pawl"]Quick comment re "nìfya'o letrrtrr":

I gather this has caused some consternation. If so, that's not surprising, since on the surface it looks as if an adjective as modifying an adverb. As you've realized, the bracketing is really nì-[fya'o letrrtrr], so it's not as weird as it seems--provided, as you say, you accept that an affix can be applied to a phrase. (I was trying without success to think of places that English does that, along the lines of "He answered very in-your-facely" or "That was an out-of-the-boxish solution.")

But it's a useful construction, since it's completely productive: if you can modify fya'o with an adjective, you can turn that phrase into a manner adverbial with nìfya'o. True, there is overlap between one-word adverbs and these constructions, but that's not unusual: in English we can say "She spoke clearly" or "She spoke in a clear way." (For the first sentence, though, nìlaw is ambiguous just as "clearly" is in English: Poe poltxe nìlaw means either "She spoke clearly" or "Clearly, she spoke." However, Poe poltxe nìfya'o alaw can only mean "She spoke clearly.")

With the limited lexicon we currently have, it's natural for people to try to use the derivational affixes freely to fill gaps. But in fact they aren't freely productive, which is why forms with tì-, sä-, le-, and nì- need to be listed in the lexicon. It's not a given that any particular root can take these affixes, and even when the form exists, the meaning won't necessarily be predictable. (E.g. tìrol means 'song' rather than 'singing.' And in English, "ordinarily" does not mean "in an ordinary manner.") But you don't have that problem with a nìfya'o adverbial--the process is always productive and always interpreted as a manner adverbial.
[/quote]



msg=154897 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 03:11:21 | u=3552

Re: Why is this night...

tigermind

Tewti, Karyu Pawl's comment just exploded my brain a little.



msg=154922 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 03:33:38 | u=54

Re: Why is this night...

Tiger

So if the prefix applies to the phrase.... *mad scientist laugh*

Oel ngati tse'a nìfya'o a tsere'a nantangìl yerikit.



msg=154938 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 03:45:25 | u=1225

Re: Why is this night...

neotrekkerz

Or you could translate the lyrics to "I need you" by [desc=Don't ask.  I have no idea, it just popped into my head]America[/desc]:  Oel kin ngati nìfya'o a syulangìl kin tompat.



msg=154984 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 04:44:50 | u=1120

Re: Why is this night...

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg154922#msg154922 date=1269315218]
So if the prefix applies to the phrase....
[/quote]

Yes, it's actually a clitic, not an affix, like 's in English.



msg=156226 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 20:32:02 | u=132

Re: Why is this night...

Taronyu

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7120.msg153589#msg153589 date=1269228035]
Taronyu isn't here yet...don't I feel ahead of the game. :P[/quote]

Heh. I'm not as on top of the ball as you think I am.



msg=156303 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 20:58:27 | u=0

Re: Why is this night...

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7120.msg156226#msg156226 date=1269462722]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7120.msg153589#msg153589 date=1269228035]
Taronyu isn't here yet...don't I feel ahead of the game. :P[/quote]

Heh. I'm not as on top of the ball as you think I am.
[/quote]

You've kept up an almost daily updated dictionary of a [desc=I say "faux," while loving Na'vi]faux[/desc] language, and you think you're not on the ball? You're more on the ball than you think I ought not to think... ;)



msg=163626 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 12:53:16 | u=1643

Re: Why is this night...

Rain

I just get this warm, fuzzy, happy feeling every time I stumble across stuff like this that adds to and helps my own vocabulary.



msg=154292 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 17:48:30 | u=430

A long answer to a quick question

TehMightyPirate

So, in a spur of the moment thing I e-mailed Frommer about 2 hours ago with a "quick question" on the pronunciation of "oe" and it's apparent two forms "oh-eh" (two syllables) and "weh" (one syllable). I just got this:

[quote author=Paul Frommer][desc=Thanks for your question.]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/desc]

Yes, you're right: the "oe" element in personal pronouns is sometimes pronounced in two syllables ("oh-eh") and sometimes one ("weh").

The general rule is that all vowels in a word are pronounced separately. The most extreme of example of this (so far!) is meoauniaea, which has 8 distinct syllables, all gliding smoothly from one to another.

But with the "oe" words, which are among the most common in the language, it's probable that more compact pronunciations evolved. People contract and shorten words all the time, especially the ones they use most frequently. In English, for example, "I am" is usually "I'm" in casual speech: two syllables have become one. The difference is that in English we change the spelling and punctuation to go along with the streamlined pronunciation while in Na'vi we don't. But the principle is the same.

So in careful, formal speech, "oeru" might be 3 full syllables. (And note that in honorific style, it's definitely 3: oheru.) But in ordinary conversation, "oeru" is normally "weh-ru."

The rule for these pronouns is as follows:

If the "oe" element comes at the end of the word, pronounce the two vowels separately; otherwise pronounce them as "weh." So oe and moe have two syllables and ayoe has three, but oel has one. However, in the dual and trial forms prefixed with m and px respectively, the vowels of oe are ALWAYS pronounced separately. So, for example, oel is one syllable but moel and pxoel are two.

[desc=I hope that this explanation is clear to you now.]Sìlpey oe tsnì fìtìoeyktìng* law livu ngaru set.[/desc]

[desc=Good day to you.]Trr lefpom livu ngar.[/desc]

ta P.

*Tìoeyktìng = explanation, which contains the root oeyk 'cause' -- two syllables, stressed on the second: o.EYK. So tìoeyktìng should have four syllables: tì.o.EYK.tìng. I bet, though, that in casual speech on Pandora it's pronounced in three, as if it were tì.WEYK.tìng. Guess we'll need a native informant to find out for sure! :-)[/quote]

Woohoo, a ton of info and a 2 hour turn around time. Karyu Pawl lu txantsan! :)

(Translation in the email by me)



msg=154303 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 17:57:41 | u=1719

Re: A long answer to a quick question

Konshu

Thats for getting that clarified for us! Great to see we have another rule in place.



msg=154315 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 18:03:40 | u=1225

Re: A long answer to a quick question

neotrekkerz

I love how there is always more depth to the language when he responds like this.  I never thought about how "oe" was pronounced in oel vs. moe. 

Oh, so as not to double post, I'll include this note in the next NIAN update.

Ma Ftiafpi, you should ask him more questions if he gets back to you this fast. :)



msg=154343 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 18:17:49 | u=430

Re: A long answer to a quick question

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7155.msg154315#msg154315 date=1269281020]
I love how there is always more depth to the language when he responds like this.  I never thought about how "oe" was pronounced in oel vs. moe. 

Oh, so as not to double post, I'll include this note in the next NIAN update.

Ma Ftiafpi, you should ask him more questions if he gets back to you this fast. :)
[/quote]

I've vowed not to abuse my powers :P

I imagine it was a fluke or something, or maybe we should always preface our questions with the adjective "quick" to lure him in :)



msg=154354 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 18:24:01 | u=21

Re: A long answer to a quick question

wm.annis

Yesterday he expressed an interest in getting grammar questions bundled up by topic, sort of like we have done for the LEP.  So, phonology questions, pronoun questions, etc., etc.  Some of the questions he will be able to answer quickly, some will required more thinking.

A further pronoun refinement from that very email:

[quote="Karyu Pawl"]Ngey 'upxareri irayo. (As you probably know, dropping the -ä on the genitive pronouns is colloquial and informal.)[/quote]



msg=154414 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 18:46:18 | u=54

Re: A long answer to a quick question

Tiger

Perhaps it's time to revisit the "Working together" concept?



msg=154459 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:12:01 | u=430

Re: A long answer to a quick question

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7155.msg154414#msg154414 date=1269283578]
Perhaps it's time to revisit the "Working together" concept?
[/quote]

Indeed. As I said, it was a spur of the moment thing, I totally support the combined questions thing.



msg=154495 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:42:17 | u=2788

Re: A long answer to a quick question

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Paul Frommer]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]

Double typo or new form?



msg=154509 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:51:08 | u=134

Re: A long answer to a quick question

vidvamp01

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7155.msg154495#msg154495 date=1269286937]
[quote author=Paul Frommer]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]

Double typo or new form?
[/quote]

That might be the discourse topic suffix?

Which implies
-ìri clause defined topic
-erì discourse defined topic
-?? subject defined topic maybe still needed?



msg=154537 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:09:38 | u=1620

Re: A long answer to a quick question

dontbugme

Txantsana fmawn
tewti, another refinement of the language.
i cant say how much i cherish that kind of contact.



msg=154544 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:16:10 | u=430

Re: A long answer to a quick question

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Txur’Itan link=topic=7155.msg154509#msg154509 date=1269287468]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7155.msg154495#msg154495 date=1269286937]
[quote author=Paul Frommer]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]

Double typo or new form?
[/quote]

That might be the discourse topic suffix?

Which implies
-ìri clause defined topic
-erì discourse defined topic
-?? subject defined topic maybe still needed?
[/quote]

Or perhaps pawm can be pawm(e)? Naw, nevermind, that doesn't make must sense as it's a verb. Anyway, I like the thought of having a discourse defined topic a lot though.

Something to add to the combined questions I guess.



msg=154546 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:18:18 | u=54

Re: A long answer to a quick question

Tiger

Since he's used ìri in that situation before, I'm inclined to think typo.  (Hey, he's allowed his keyey too!)

Pawme is an interesting thought given Na'vi's love for ignoring "e" at the end of a word, but seeing as how pawm is a verb that seems like it would significantly change the nature of it.



msg=154568 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:35:48 | u=430

Re: A long answer to a quick question

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7155.msg154546#msg154546 date=1269289098]
Pawme is an interesting thought given Na'vi's love for ignoring "e" at the end of a word, but seeing as how pawm is a verb that seems like it would significantly change the nature of it.
[/quote]

That was exactly my thought process. I love how I'm starting to think more and more linguistically about Na'vi. Not just how to use the language but how it was developed and what little subtleties it has.

Anyway, back on topic. I suppose we should add that as a "quick question" into the combined questions thread. Either it's kxeyey (love how you misspelled kxeyey :P) and it has a quick answer or it's not and that's something I would love to find out about.



msg=154572 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:39:16 | u=54

Re: A long answer to a quick question

Tiger

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7155.msg154568#msg154568 date=1269290148]
... (love how you misspelled kxeyey :P) ...
[/quote]And I love how you misinterpreted the plural of kxeyey as my kxeyey. :)



msg=154575 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:41:10 | u=430

Re: A long answer to a quick question

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7155.msg154572#msg154572 date=1269290356]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7155.msg154568#msg154568 date=1269290148]
... (love how you misspelled kxeyey :P) ...
[/quote]And I love how you misinterpreted the plural of kxeyey as my kxeyey. :)
[/quote]

oooo, tricksie you be my precious...



msg=154727 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 22:22:54 | u=1225

Re: A long answer to a quick question

neotrekkerz

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7155.msg154459#msg154459 date=1269285121]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7155.msg154414#msg154414 date=1269283578]
Perhaps it's time to revisit the "Working together" concept?
[/quote]

Indeed. As I said, it was a spur of the moment thing, I totally support the combined questions thing.
[/quote]

Perhaps a "Grammar Expansion" in the child boards of language updates.  Time to start typing in colors again?

EDIT:  Never mind, just saw combining our efforts II.



msg=154777 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:00:16 | u=21

Re: A long answer to a quick question

wm.annis

Enwikified.



msg=155018 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 05:21:23 | u=1120

Re: A long answer to a quick question

roger

moe, pxoe cannot contract because there is no /mw, pxw/ in Na'vi. That was covered earlier, we just didn't know what conditioned the contraction where it was possible.



msg=155104 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:37:32 | u=1120

Re: A long answer to a quick question

roger

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7155.msg154495#msg154495 date=1269286937]
[quote author=Paul Frommer]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]

Double typo or new form?
[/quote]

Paul said, "Ngaru tìyawr, lu kxeyey. Ngaytxoa. Eyawra lì'u lu tìpawmìri. Sempul lì'fyayä harmahaw."

He does seem to get back to us ASAP when it's a question of a mistake he may have made.

The first phrase is interesting. "tìyawr" is not included in his still-being-released vocab list.



msg=155173 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 10:18:06 | u=631

Re: A long answer to a quick question

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Seems like our often neglected "e" ;) doesn't it?
tì- + eyawr => tìyawr
ngaru tìyawr = you are correct, you are right



msg=155274 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 13:32:24 | u=3552

Re: A long answer to a quick question

tigermind

"Ngaytxoa"?



msg=155307 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:04:08 | u=1120

Re: A long answer to a quick question

roger

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7155.msg155274#msg155274 date=1269351144]
"Ngaytxoa"?
[/quote]

"Forgive me" as an interjection.



msg=155353 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:58:23 | u=3552

Re: A long answer to a quick question

tigermind

Ah, okay.  Irayo, ma roger.



msg=154488 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:37:46 | u=54

Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Entries are closed.
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/navi-language-workshop-the-poll-of-outstanding-questions/]View poll results[/url]


================

Our [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/]last attempt[/url] at getting questions answered sort of petered out, so perhaps it's time to start another one with a fresh set of questions, since many of the questions in the old thread have since been answered.  Lets gather up questions and I'll try to group them by category so we can send them together in groups.  As always of course feedback on the exact wording of questions, as well as if we have answers, are accepted.

Please do not edit your posts after they are added or the updates may be missed.  If you need to add more or make corrections, post a new response.

Awaiting categorization


Phonology and Phonotactics


Participles and other Verbal Derivatives


Verb usage / forms


Affixes and Adpositions


Word meanings


Adjectives & Adverbs


Should be asked independently due to the size/required extra information


Vocabulary/Lexicon


General Usage


Currently not slated to be asked (May require clarification)


Answered




List of questions compiled through [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/msg294172/#msg294172]this post[/url].



msg=154545 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:16:39 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Great idea, ma omängum fra'uti

My question (for now) ;)

We have a construction to form the comparative (A to B lu Adj.)
How does the superlative work?
How would a construction like [font=Verdana]A is as Adj. as B
work?

Thanks for the effort



msg=154579 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:43:27 | u=430

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Karyu Pawl]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]
Question: Was this a typo or a new form of ìri/ri?



msg=154592 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:49:30 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Phonology and Phonotactics




msg=154610 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:02:43 | u=430

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

TehMightyPirate

A thought on this, I feel the old combined one petered out because we built up this huge unmanageable list of questions. Perhaps a good solution to this is we build up questions each week and then send out one email each week (like on a Friday or something). Then, we can mark questions that have been answered and take any unanswered ones and add them to next weeks question email. This should yield fast results, not overwhelm Frommer (too much), and allow us to have an easy system for asking and organizing questions and answers.

Thoughts?



msg=154614 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:06:16 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Good idea.  Also the thread got long and so it was getting hard to sort through the new questions.  Perhaps I'll start linking to the last post which I have gathered questions from to make it easier.



msg=154618 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:08:35 | u=1317

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

I think that is also a good idea.


This goes along with the pluralizing of words like yerik, which may be what wm.annis was getting at in the first place but it was a little vague to me.



msg=154642 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:20:39 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Participles and other Verbal Derivatives



msg=154664 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:32:07 | u=1317

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Unsure of Categorization



msg=154759 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 22:44:00 | u=1225

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

neotrekkerz

Unsure of classification

How do you use iv as subjunctive when there's a modal verb:  Txo new nga rivey, oehu! Come with me if you want to live. Why not nivew rivey?
Same question when there are two verbs:  "If you are walking and talking, you are not listening."  Would talking need iv if you already had tivìran?
How do you treat the apodosis?  Do you only worry about tense, or do you have to combine it with iv as well?  Ex:  what do you write for "listening" above?
Does the subjunctive match how it's used(so to speak) in English?  If not, which verbs/instances specifically require it?




msg=154781 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:03:28 | u=1746

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Carborundum

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=7157.msg154664#msg154664 date=1269293527]
Unsure of Categorization

[/quote]
Neytiri greets Eytukan with "ma sempul, oel ngati kameie".



msg=154793 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:11:48 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

She also says "oeru txoa livu. ma oeyä tsmukan".  Seems like that question, then, has been answered.  Throughout the corpus it seems to be used fairly early on, but not necessarily before saying anything else.



msg=154943 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 03:49:22 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

I just want to add to the list of possible synonyms awaiting clarification:

tìrol vs. way

My guess was that tìrol refers to songs that are sung, whereas way is...instrumental, i guess.  But i may be wrong, and i'd like clarification on those.



msg=154966 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 04:22:18 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

You forgot pamtseo.



msg=154975 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 04:31:49 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

I didn't forget pamtseo, ma tsmukan.  It's glossed as "music," while the other two are "song."  That distinction seems clear enough to me; but if you would like Karyu Pawl to clarify further, by all means, ask him.  I would never turn down an opportunity to learn more.

Eywa ngahu, ma tsmukan.



msg=155002 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 05:03:53 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Ah good point.  For some reason I thought one was "Music", one was "Song", and the third was "Song, music".



msg=155056 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 06:11:18 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg154488#msg154488 date=1269286666]

[/quote]I think I'm going to withdraw this question...  I was browsing various sources and noticed that Frommer said he sometimes forgets to use the dual form, especially in first person, and unless someone else sees a reason that might not have been the case here, I don't think there's a point to digging up past mistakes.



msg=155072 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 06:33:58 | u=1225

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

neotrekkerz

I've been thinking about it a while now, and I would like to clarify the use of nìfya'o adj (used with phrases) vs. tengfya vs. na and/or pxel.  For example, what's the difference (if there is one) between

Ikran zolup ne kllte tengfya rìk zup ta utral and
Ikran zolup ne kllte nìfya'o a rìk zup ta utral?

My guess is you can only use the adpositions with a single noun:  Ikran zolup ne kllte rìkna, but regardless it would be nice to know.




msg=155085 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:01:53 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Did you want to include for the sake of completeness
*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel fwa rìk zup ta utral and
*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel rìk a zup ta utral



msg=155098 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:24:55 | u=1120

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

roger

We should verify the stress of every case of every PN of every number, just in case there are irregularities in there. That would be an awful thing to have to re-learn. Wouldn't be too hard to draw up a table & see if he agrees with it.

Should have: oe, oeg, awga, ga, po, fo, ca, caw, ca'u, sa, saw, sa'u, fì'u, fì'po, etc., and whatever the plurals of those last two are.

Would be worth asking if foan, foe, ngan, ngae, or 1pl are possible PN forms.



msg=155110 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:59:32 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Not to mention every case where there is an ambiguous distinction between diphthong and VCV.  I've actually got a little perl script that splits out the syllables of words, it would be trivial to modify it to scour the word list and split out any word where such a thing occurs.  Perhaps even clarify the syllabification of any occurrence of "VtsV" as "V.tsV" or "Vt.sV", as well as words that are VCV where C can be either a coda or onset.  (Presently my script prefers diphthongs over consonants, and onsets over codas, as that seems to be Na'vi's preferences.  But as I said it would be trivial to modify it to spit out all ambiguous cases from the current vocabulary.)



msg=155124 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 08:17:41 | u=1120

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

roger

Since F follows morphology, and underlines entire stressed syllables, this would only be an issue where unstressed syllables meet within roots. Since roots are generally fairly short, there are few instances where this would even come up. AFAIK, so far this has only been relevant for w, y, ', and g, and my suspicion is that the latter two are an influence of English. And if F notes that there is little distinction in stressed examples, there's likely to be even less in unstressed examples where it's not marked in the vocab.



msg=155138 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 09:00:20 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

You are most likely correct there, but it's good to get an understanding.  Of all the diphthong examples, only pizayu had an unstressed syllabic pair...  But if the -yu is the same -yu as elsewhere, it's likely not a diphthong.  (I'm inclined to believe it is CVCV there.)  There were no words where VtsC?V occurred in any unstressed syllable.

Words where it's VCV on an unstressed syllable, and it is not clear from morphology...

atokirina'
te'e
meoauniaea
snuna
tsap'alute

So it's a pretty short list.  I'm inclined to believe that these are all regular.

If anyone wants to look at this on there own, this is the perl regex I'm using to split the syllables out - though this one is not the one I modified to find contested consonants.
[spoiler]
        /
           \\G
           (?| # C?C/VC? syllables
               ( # C, CC or (null)
                   (?:[csf]|ts)?
                   (?:[mgrlwy]|[ptk]x?|ng?)?
               | # Additional C only forms
                   [hvz']
               )
               (?| # Normal vowels
                   ([iìuoä])() # Empty capture because the ?| doesn't seem to work right
               | # Possible diphthongs
                   ([ea])([wy](?!rr|ll))?
               )
               ( # Coda - don't be greedy
                 # Next syllable gets any contended consonants
                   (?:['mgrl]|[pk]x?|ng?|tx)
                   (?![iìuoäeax]|rr|ll)
               | # Special case coda for T, it is given up to a s for ts
                 # Removing this part and adding t to pk above will give the T to the coda
                   t(?![siìuoäeax]|rr|ll)
               )?
           | # CV psuedovowel syllables only
               ([csfmgrlwyhvz']|[pk]x?|t[sx]?|ng?)
               (rr|ll)
           )
       /gcix

This returns the onset in $1, the vowel or psuedovowel (But not the second half of a diphthong) in $2, the y or w from a diphthong in $3 and the coda in $4.  When there are disputes, it prefers diphthongs over consonants and onsets over codas.  Theoretically to be the most flexible it should give a disputed T to the coda and let the program decide what to do with it, but there are so few cases where the T wouldn't go to a TS that it isn't a huge deal.  For pure scientific notation input, however, it should always give the T to the coda in a ts case.  Note that words like "'e.wll" are not considered disputed because the consonant MUST go to the CV syllable.
[/spoiler]



msg=155152 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 09:20:46 | u=1120

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

roger

Yeah, worth presenting that list for a quick yes/no; we might even get an explanation of what piza- is.



msg=155160 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 09:52:30 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Added to the list.  I made a new section for the PN stress question because it will involve compiling the chart, and sending it.  It's probably best done on it's own not as part of a group.



msg=155250 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:52:39 | u=1620

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

dontbugme

Adjectives & Adverbs


i hope that i used the linguistic terms correctly and that this has not been asked already



msg=155304 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:01:21 | u=1120

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

roger

oeyä ean-a txìm a-tsawl "my big blue butt"

2 adj may also occur on the same side of the N, so the combo should be legal. But yes, don't we have "sì" linking adj?

More general question: can the N be dropped out of an NP? Does the adj then take the adp/case?

It would also be nice to fill out the answer-word chart: ?kawtseng "nowhere", ?kawpo "no-one", no reason, no-how, no way, no (action), no (word), and similarly for which (?pefo "which one"), proximals & distals, some-, every-, other-, same-. And the plurals: does pesu "who?" have a plural fesu when you know multiple people are involved? The plural of tsa'u is sa'u; is the pl. of fì'u therefore ayfì'u, or fayu? Is there a contrast or parallel between sa'u and ?tsayu? Etc.

Also, confirm that all adp, including things like teri, na, and pxel, can occur as suffixes/enclitics as well as as preps. It seems from what he's written that teri is the prep. equivalent of the case -ìri. We should ask that explicitly. (Who knows? It might be possible to get an acc. prep. ??teti, or an ergative ??tel.)

Have we ever gotten an answer on those mysterious verbal infixes? tovaron, tevaron, telaron, tairon? They may be spurious, but we should get them out of the way if they are.

Also, those odd adverbs that look like adjectival forms of stative verbs:

lìm "be far" --> alìm "in the distance". Perhaps stative verbs cannot take the participle? Is the form ?lìma with the opposite word order? Is this a subord. form lexicalized as an adverb, or is there s.t. more productive going on? Do all stative verbs behave like this?



msg=155563 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 16:49:13 | u=1620

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

dontbugme

Phonology and Phonotactics



msg=155592 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 17:14:55 | u=1120

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

roger

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg155563#msg155563 date=1269362953]
[*] can a adposition at the end of a word cause lenation on the following word?
[/quote]

I very strongly suspect not. There's nothing inherent to the sounds of those adp. which cause lenition, but rather s.t. historical, so that lenition is part of the prep+N paradigm. Think of the retention of lost C's during liaison in French. But it should be asked, just in case.



msg=155775 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:19:25 | u=1225

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

neotrekkerz

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg155085#msg155085 date=1269327713]
Did you want to include for the sake of completeness
*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel fwa rìk zup ta utral and
*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel rìk a zup ta utral
[/quote]
Sure, let's clear it up completely.



msg=156187 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 20:13:58 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

First set of questions have been asked.  Asked questions are marked in green, I'll move them to the answered section as they come in.  No promise everything will get answered, last time we did a group he just answered a few.



msg=156571 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:53:21 | u=1620

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

dontbugme

Verb usage / forms
[*]can kä be attatched generically to all verbs where it sounds senseful?
Word meanings or Phonology and Phonotactics
[*]is "ois" a word?

I looked through some threads and came across these.
maybe some exportable questions could be found in there:

[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/genitive/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/genitive/[/url]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/pragmatics/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/pragmatics/[/url]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/negation/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/negation/[/url]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/si-compounds-and-word-order/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/si-compounds-and-word-order/[/url]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/txotsakrr/msg153784/#msg153784]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/txotsakrr/msg153784/#msg153784[/url]



msg=156586 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:10:03 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg156187#msg156187 date=1269461638]
First set of questions have been asked.  Asked questions are marked in green, I'll move them to the answered section as they come in.  No promise everything will get answered, last time we did a group he just answered a few.
[/quote]

Ma omängum fra'uti, may i ask why you didn't include the fayu/ayfì'u question?  That's one i really would like answered.



msg=156588 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:12:35 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Because I was going off HTML I'd grabbed a little before the server went down, and somehow missed that one when compiling the final list to send.  That post was a little hard to pick through to find the questions without the full forum formatting.



msg=156605 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:31:22 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg156588#msg156588 date=1269475955]
Because I was going off HTML I'd grabbed a little before the server went down, and somehow missed that one when compiling the final list to send.  That post was a little hard to pick through to find the questions without the full forum formatting.
[/quote]

Well, apparently it's a moot point, anyway; looks like we got [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/declension-of-nouns-ending-in-diphthongs-fi-and-tsa/msg156601/#new]an answer[/url].



msg=156611 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:38:52 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

I call it a part answer...  The question of plural question words is still open.  Certainly following the fì + ay = fay doesn't work because "pay" seems like it would be too easily confused with water in some cases.  Pey would be a lenited number 3...  Peay is a moutful, so fe does seem the most promising there.  So I think that should still get asked.  IMO anyway.



msg=156625 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 01:06:56 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Don't know if that has been answered somewhere else...

Does the interrogative pronouns take case endings in their pe+N form when asked with a transitive verb?
Is it, e.g.:

[font=Garamond]What about the answer? Does it suffice to just say, e.g.:

  • [font=Garamond]'ite or rather

  • [font=Garamond]'itel (tsaye'a fot(i).)




msg=156949 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 11:12:00 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Aahhh!  I should have remembered this earlier.

Phonotactics: We are told that there is no "-eng-" infix.  What's the conditioning factor in "sengi" (presumed from *sängi)?



msg=157154 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 15:17:05 | u=1120

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

roger

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7157.msg156625#msg156625 date=1269479216]
[font=Garamond]Don't know if that has been answered somewhere else...

Does the interrogative pronouns take case endings in their pe+N form when asked with a transitive verb?
Is it, e.g.:

[font=Garamond]What about the answer? Does it suffice to just say, e.g.:

  • [font=Garamond]'ite or rather

  • [font=Garamond]'itel (tsaye'a fot(i).)


[/quote]

You would need case, or I wouldn't know who you were asking about, the doer or the doee.



msg=157278 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 16:30:30 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]If you're sure ... thanks
txo law lu ngar ... irayo :)

I was reminded of Irish Yes/No constructions where the verb is repeated (positive/negative) for that ... but it's not necessarily conjugated ... thought this could happen as well in Na'vi. If you ask already for a "Who" then the meaning of whom you are talking about (with just e.g., 'ite in my example) should be clear - only if you repeat the whole sentence ergative and accusative need to be there... But I don't want to force it ;) I'm rather on the safe side



msg=157295 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 16:41:09 | u=1120

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

roger

I don't know about the answer; that would be evident from context. However, case is not optional the way TAM is. Also, providing case in the answer would verify that you heard the question correctly. But certainly in the question, as a practical matter, case would be essential in many contexts: there's a big difference between pesul tamakuk and pesuti tamakuk, and *pesu tamakuk would be unintelligible. (I take that back: it would most likely be heard as pesut tamakuk, especially if double consonants are reduced the way double vowels are, so if you meant pesul tamakuk you'd be completely misunderstood.)

But y'know how oeng reverts to oenga- when declined? I wonder if pesu would revert to ?pesute when declined?



msg=157525 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:47:51 | u=430

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

TehMightyPirate

While trying to make the quoted phrase from Lord of the Rings "You shall not pass" and make use of the determinate futures (ìsy, asy) I came across the problem, does the determination apply to the speaker (as with <ei> & <äng>) or the subject/object?

"Ngal ke ftìsyem!"

Does it mean "(I) shall not allow you to pass" or does it mean "(you are determined) you will not pass"?



msg=157554 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:05:50 | u=1120

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

roger

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg157525#msg157525 date=1269542871]
While trying to make the quoted phrase from Lord of the Rings "You shall not pass" and make use of the determinate futures (ìsy, asy) I came across the problem, does the determination apply to the speaker (as with <ei> & <äng>) or the subject/object?

"Ngal ke ftìsyem!"

Does it mean "(I) shall not allow you to pass" or does it mean "(you are determined) you will not pass"?
[/quote]

Good question. I've passed it on to Paul. If we're lucky ...

(You might want to as well. His box is overflowing w my emails.)

I could see using the evidential for the intention of another person, with the lack of the evidential meaning the intention is that of the speaker. But I don't think that level of detail has been worked out.



msg=157929 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 23:44:45 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=7157.msg157554#msg157554 date=1269543950]
(You might want to as well. His box is overflowing w my emails.)
[/quote]And because of that he doesn't ever see any of the rest of our emails through the flood either! :P  I have heard nothing back yet, but of course it has only been a day or two.



msg=158012 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 02:21:12 | u=430

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg157929#msg157929 date=1269560685]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7157.msg157554#msg157554 date=1269543950]
(You might want to as well. His box is overflowing w my emails.)
[/quote]And because of that he doesn't ever see any of the rest of our emails through the flood either! :P  I have heard nothing back yet, but of course it has only been a day or two.
[/quote]

Yeah, we should avoid duplicating emails if at all possible. At the very least it means Pawl has to write the same email twice. At most it means he has to respond in Na'vi to two separate emails. Given that Frommer is the "choke point" in our expansion of the language we want to make things as easy on him as possible. Doubly so since he's working so hard on all this for free.



msg=158015 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 02:25:56 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Right, hence the point of this thread...



msg=161622 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 14:48:35 | u=1620

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

dontbugme

Verb usage / forms
[*] can nouns that are used with "si" take the plural, adjectives or adpositions?
Word meanings
[*] Usage/Meaning of "tsopì"="lung":
In English some other languages you have <two lungs>. In German and some other languages you have <[desc=one "lungs"]eine Lunge[/desc]> but <[desc=two "lungwings"]zwei Lungenflügel[/desc]>. The way frommer [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/body-related-poetry-part-2]gave us the word[/url] it should be assumed to be used in plural but do we really know if this organ looks the same like ours?
Generally: how has this term envolved in our languages?. had it something to do with the spread of anatomie or why don't you use "the thing you breath with" in singular?



msg=163112 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 05:53:16 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Just a small update on the status of asked questions.  Karyu Pawl is a busy man and has not had a chance to sit down and respond, but he hopes to get to them this week.



msg=163963 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:19:06 | u=430

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg163112#msg163112 date=1269841996]
Just a small update on the status of asked questions.  Karyu Pawl is a busy man and has not had a chance to sit down and respond, but he hopes to get to them this week.
[/quote]

Woohoo! Oh and this question got answered: [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/ltasygt-with-ke-and-nga/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/ltasygt-with-ke-and-nga/[/url]



msg=165055 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 23:11:31 | u=1550

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Taras

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg163112#msg163112 date=1269841996]
but he hopes to get to them this week.
[/quote]

Tsun oe tsere'a faylì'ut a fì'u oeru txana prrte' leiu ;)



msg=165945 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 13:04:17 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Syntax

You have used "tsaw" as a resumptive pronoun with inanimate head-nouns (po *tsane* karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel).  Do we use forms of "po" for animates, as in "srake ngal tse'a sutet a oe *fohu* parmängkxo?".


Feh.



msg=166455 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 16:44:39 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Syntax

In Chinese, Topics are usually definite (given or inferable discourse topics), but not all topic-heavy languages do this.  Where does Na'vi's topical case stand?



msg=166804 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 19:26:51 | u=2788

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg165945#msg165945 date=1269954257]
You have used "tsaw" as a resumptive pronoun with inanimate head-nouns (po *tsane* karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel).  Do we use forms of "po" for animates, as in "srake ngal tse'a sutet a oe *fohu* parmängkxo?".
[/quote]

Apparently yes: Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.

Did we ever get clarification whether tsa is the same as tsaw? In the post containing the tsane line, Frommer writes tsa on its own first, contrasting it with po.



msg=167250 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 22:56:08 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg166804#msg166804 date=1269977211]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg165945#msg165945 date=1269954257]
You have used "tsaw" as a resumptive pronoun with inanimate head-nouns (po *tsane* karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel).  Do we use forms of "po" for animates, as in "srake ngal tse'a sutet a oe *fohu* parmängkxo?".
[/quote]

Apparently yes: Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.[/quote]

Gah!  I no longer have the entire Corpus memorized!  What use am I now?



msg=167257 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 23:03:22 | u=1317

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

You'd make a mighty fine paper weight.  :D



msg=167277 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 23:21:51 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg167250#msg167250 date=1269989768]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg166804#msg166804 date=1269977211]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg165945#msg165945 date=1269954257]
You have used "tsaw" as a resumptive pronoun with inanimate head-nouns (po *tsane* karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel).  Do we use forms of "po" for animates, as in "srake ngal tse'a sutet a oe *fohu* parmängkxo?".
[/quote]

Apparently yes: Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.[/quote]

Gah!  I no longer have the entire Corpus memorized!  What use am I now?
[/quote]That's a good thing!  It's a sign the language is broadening.



msg=167287 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 23:37:40 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

I learned a new word from NPR today, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapax_legomenon]hapax legomenon[/url] -- a word that occurs only once in a given corpus.  Although in the NPR story it was being used to refer to phrases that occur in only one use in a language, so i don't know if that fits the "official" definition--they gave the example of the phrase "under God" being an archaic way of saying "God-willing" that is now extant (at least in American English) only in our Pledge of Allegiance.

So, i would like to know if Karyu Pawl has any examples of 1) a word that is used in Na'vi for only one phrase and/or 2) a phrase in Na'vi that only exists to be used in one very specific context (e.g., a phrase one would only use while communing with the Tree of Souls, used for no other purpose).

Don't ask me why i would want these things; i just...do.

If you feel this doesn't belong in this thread, ma smuk, please let me know, and i'll relocate it.



msg=167300 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 00:11:15 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

That is the sort of thing I refer to as "Linguistic lense flare" - making an analogy to the quintessential 3-d animation effect of a lense flare...  Something that in real optics is undesirable and every attempt is made to minimize, yet when there is a chance to not have it at all, it is added in artistically (Hopefully artistically, anyway) to make it feel more organic and real because we are used to seeing it.  With constructed languages you could avoid all these irregularities, archaic forms, and other such things that make the language difficult to learn or use, but putting them in makes the language feel more natural and more real.

So, it's a fair question.  Don't expect an answer right away, but asking it may be enough to put the thought in his mind, and perhaps down the road something like that will appear.



msg=167421 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 03:45:46 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg167287#msg167287 date=1269992260]So, i would like to know if Karyu Pawl has any examples of 1) a word that is used in Na'vi for only one phrase and/or 2) a phrase in Na'vi that only exists to be used in one very specific context (e.g., a phrase one would only use while communing with the Tree of Souls, used for no other purpose).[/quote]

What you're talking about here is less hapax than specialized or archaic vocabulary.  Homer is full of hapax legomena, and they can be quite annoying.  It's hard sometimes to know what a word means when you only get to see it used once... once anywhere, in the entire body of Greek texts.  To speak of hapax in a living language would be a bit odd, since in theory you could walk up to someone and use a rare word, moving it out of hapax territory.  In a fixed corpus that doesn't really grow much, like ancient Greek, hapax are much more common.

The "under God" business is an archaism, an easier and less annoying situation to cope with. ;)



msg=167496 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 05:26:20 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg167421#msg167421 date=1270007146]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg167287#msg167287 date=1269992260]So, i would like to know if Karyu Pawl has any examples of 1) a word that is used in Na'vi for only one phrase and/or 2) a phrase in Na'vi that only exists to be used in one very specific context (e.g., a phrase one would only use while communing with the Tree of Souls, used for no other purpose).[/quote]

What you're talking about here is less hapax than specialized or archaic vocabulary.  Homer is full of hapax legomena, and they can be quite annoying.  It's hard sometimes to know what a word means when you only get to see it used once... once anywhere, in the entire body of Greek texts.  To speak of hapax in a living language would be a bit odd, since in theory you could walk up to someone and use a rare word, moving it out of hapax territory.  In a fixed corpus that doesn't really grow much, like ancient Greek, hapax are much more common.

The "under God" business is an archaism, an easier and less annoying situation to cope with. ;)
[/quote]

Yeah, as soon as i read the Wikipedia article it became clear the NPR story hadn't been using the term correctly.  So what i'm going for is the thing they were calling "hapax" in the NPR story.



msg=171793 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 15:02:56 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Verb Form

Are we correctly hearing "tspìmìyang" in the movie for "I was about to kill him?"  If so, can any past infix be used in the first slot, "tspalmìyang, tspamìyang"?  Any future form in the second?  It seems like any aspect or mood marking would be restricted to one slot or the other.  In the context of the rest of the Na'vi verb system something like *tspìyìmang doesn't seem to make sense — but does this have some meaning?



msg=171803 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 15:22:46 | u=1120

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

roger

"I'm about to have just killed you" = "you're gonna die now"?

This has not been confirmed, and IMO is a priority to get confirmed.



msg=172261 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 23:29:32 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I borrowed roger's formulation from the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/mipa-ayliu-teri-tusaftxua-filifya!/]Mipa ayLì'u teri... Thread[/url]. Hope that's okay.

Concerning tok and utterances with adpositions that describe location:

If lu cannot function as to be in a place, then how to say "[noun] is [prep] [location]". Do we need a relative clause for that?

================

[font=Garamond]si-constructions and case:

If si-constructions count as intrasitive and the 'normal' direct object gets the dative, how do we treat instances in which there is already a dative, e.g.

"I write you a message"

Can there be a double dative? Is it solved through adpositions or is there another construction?

*oe pamrel si 'upxareru ngaru
*oe pamrel si 'upxareru ne nga
*oe pamrel si fte fpive' 'upxaret ngaru
*oe pamrel si fte ngaru livu 'upxare



msg=175389 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 21:46:14 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Morphosyntax (er, Affixes)

All these rules — fìfrahoren? fìfrayhoren? frafayhoren? (The last seems least likely.)



msg=175644 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 08:02:07 | u=54

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Tiger

Here's an interesting one I stumbled across looking through emails today.

[quote=Paul Frommer]Tìkangkem atxantsan nang[/quote]

The implication is that nìtxan is not the only context where nang can be used.  So that begs the question...

What exactly does nang do?  It goes with nìtxan, and apparently txantsan as well.  What else can it be used with?  Can it be taken as a sort of "txan" intensifier?



msg=175837 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 16:05:43 | u=430

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg175644#msg175644 date=1270627327]
Here's an interesting one I stumbled across looking through emails today.

[quote=Paul Frommer]Tìkangkem atxantsan nang[/quote]

The implication is that nìtxan is not the only context where nang can be used.  So that begs the question...

What exactly does nang do?  It goes with nìtxan, and apparently txantsan as well.  What else can it be used with?  Can it be taken as a sort of "txan" intensifier?
[/quote]

That's how I've kind of been picturing it used.



msg=196172 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 18:24:00 | u=73

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg175837#msg175837 date=1270656343]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg175644#msg175644 date=1270627327]
Here's an interesting one I stumbled across looking through emails today.

[quote=Paul Frommer]Tìkangkem atxantsan nang[/quote]

The implication is that nìtxan is not the only context where nang can be used.  So that begs the question...

What exactly does nang do?  It goes with nìtxan, and apparently txantsan as well.  What else can it be used with?  Can it be taken as a sort of "txan" intensifier?
[/quote]

That's how I've kind of been picturing it used.
[/quote]

It's my understanding that as long as it's at the very end, it can intensify anything. It just happens to most common in conjunction with «txan»-things because they are setting up intensity in the first place.



msg=196255 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 19:26:52 | u=430

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7157.msg196172#msg196172 date=1272392640]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg175837#msg175837 date=1270656343]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg175644#msg175644 date=1270627327]
Here's an interesting one I stumbled across looking through emails today.

[quote=Paul Frommer]Tìkangkem atxantsan nang[/quote]

The implication is that nìtxan is not the only context where nang can be used.  So that begs the question...

What exactly does nang do?  It goes with nìtxan, and apparently txantsan as well.  What else can it be used with?  Can it be taken as a sort of "txan" intensifier?
[/quote]

That's how I've kind of been picturing it used.
[/quote]

It's my understanding that as long as it's at the very end, it can intensify anything. It just happens to most common in conjunction with «txan»-things because they are setting up intensity in the first place.
[/quote]

Well, that drags up a long forgotten conversation. I too agree though, since then I've basically imagined that "nang" adds intensity to any clause it's attached to.



msg=205136 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 12:59:46 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Word Usage

Regarding {lam} (glossed as "seem, appear"): First, can it be used in the sense of "manifest," as in "a ghost appeared?"  Second, how does one say "he seems to be a moron" — {po lam skxawng}, {po lam na/pxel skxawng}, {(oeru) lam fwa po lu skxawng}, {po lam livu skxawng}?



msg=205692 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-08 00:17:15 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

I have another word-usgae question.  The word tätxaw is glossed as "return."  I'm guessing that's in the sense of "The humans returned to Earth."  But does the thing that gets returned to (in this case, 'Rrta) use an adposition, or just the dative case marker?

And, secondly, could we use *teykätxaw to mean "return" in the sense of "He returned Neytiri's bow"?



msg=206657 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 13:31:51 | u=1620

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

dontbugme

Verb usage / forms
which modal verbs can be used non modally?

im not shure if its been attestet, but afaik kin can be used non modally
how about: zene, zenke, tsun, new, (...) ?

In my point of view(an non linguistic one) "i need something" is equivalent to "i need to have something" (or with the even more general dative construction in Na'vi) "oe kin livu oeru 'uo". So this have/Dative construction should be (theoretically) applicable to the other modal verbs too

Is that possible? and if, would the cases then work the same way as with lu?
lu oeru fì'u  -  i have this thing
zene oeru fì'u  -  i must have this thing
or else?



msg=208656 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-11 22:37:52 | u=1620

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

dontbugme

Affixes and Adpositions
if the plural is understood out of the context can you then say fì/tsa instead of fay/tsay ?



msg=212340 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 12:40:53 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg208656#msg208656 date=1273617472]
Affixes and Adpositions
if the plural is understood out of the context can you then say fì/tsa instead of fay/tsay ?[/quote]

This one was [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#Declension_with_Diphthongs_and_Deixis]already answered[/url] by implication.



msg=212351 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:10:39 | u=1620

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

dontbugme

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg212340#msg212340 date=1274100053]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg208656#msg208656 date=1273617472]
Affixes and Adpositions
if the plural is understood out of the context can you then say fì/tsa instead of fay/tsay ?[/quote]

This one was [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#Declension_with_Diphthongs_and_Deixis]already answered[/url] by implication.
[/quote]

does this also apply for fìme/fìpxe/tsame/tsapxe too? (are these confirmed at all?)
in this case it would be shorter to use fì/tsa.



msg=212380 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:31:10 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg212351#msg212351 date=1274101839]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg212340#msg212340 date=1274100053]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg208656#msg208656 date=1273617472]
Affixes and Adpositions
if the plural is understood out of the context can you then say fì/tsa instead of fay/tsay ?[/quote]

This one was [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#Declension_with_Diphthongs_and_Deixis]already answered[/url] by implication.
[/quote]

does this also apply for fìme/fìpxe/tsame/tsapxe too? (are these confirmed at all?)
in this case it would be shorter to use fì/tsa.
[/quote]

Kaltxì ma 'eylan na'viyä.

This is complete conjecture on my part, but my [desc=completely insubstantiated]guess[/desc] is that you wouldn't mix prefixes like this.  My guess is that the number prefixes would drop back and become adjectives.

-[desc=I see three Skypeople]Oel tse'a pxesawtutet[/desc].
-[desc=What Skypeople?]Pesawtute?[/desc]
-[desc=Those three Skypeople.  Don't you see the three Skypeople there?]Tsaysawtute apxey.  Ngal ke tse'a pxesawtutet tsatseng srak?[/desc]

Again, just my guess.



msg=212533 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 16:18:31 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg212351#msg212351 date=1274101839]does this also apply for fìme/fìpxe/tsame/tsapxe too? (are these confirmed at all?)
in this case it would be shorter to use fì/tsa.[/quote]

There are not confirmed as far as I can tell, but there's no particular reason to expect these to work differently.  It might be shorter, but we have no reason to believe number marking is optional when even the adjective pxay seems to trigger plural marking.

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg212380#msg212380 date=1274103070]This is complete conjecture on my part, but my [desc=completely insubstantiated]guess[/desc] is that you wouldn't mix prefixes like this.  My guess is that the number prefixes would drop back and become adjectives.
[/quote]

I don't see any reasons to believe that number marking for dual and trial is somehow fundamentally different morphologically than the plural marker.  I would be stunned if fì-me, tsa-me, etc., aren't correct.



msg=212536 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 16:22:03 | u=2788

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg212533#msg212533 date=1274113111]
It might be shorter, but we have no reason to believe number marking is optional when even the adjective pxay seems to trigger plural marking.
[/quote]

At the same time, however, attributive numbers do not seem to trigger plural marking. Quaint, no?



msg=212572 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 17:01:28 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg212536#msg212536 date=1274113323]At the same time, however, attributive numbers do not seem to trigger plural marking. Quaint, no?[/quote]

I'm not sure I'd call it "quaint."  It's common enough, and doesn't detract from my point — some sort of overt number marking seems to be required in Na'vi.  Sometimes that marking is redundant, as with pxay, sometimes it's more parsimonious, as when numerals are used.



msg=221439 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-30 18:25:36 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Sorry, if this has been answered already. Couldn’t find it in a quick scan… If so, please direct me to the source – irayo

Tense/Verb Usage:

When using modal verbs where goes the tense? In the modal itself or in the following verb? Does it matter?
In other words, can you use
fo nayew tsive’a tìkangkemit ahasey ?
»they will want to see the finished work«
or
fo new tsiyeve’a tìkangkemit ahasey ?



msg=221531 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-30 21:14:38 | u=195

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

esoanem

I'd assume that they're both valid, but with different meanings.

nayew tsive'a = at some point in the future they will want to see
nwe tiyeve'a = they want (now) to see at some point in the future.



msg=225322 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 00:02:10 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

Kaltxì ma smuk.  I have a question related to numbers that came to mind this morning.  We know how to say "three skypeople did X," but how would we say "three of the skypeople did X"?  I know the difference may seem trivial, but consider something a little more complicated:

"Seven hunters went into the forest, but only three of them returned."

What do you think, ma smuk?



msg=225338 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 00:15:12 | u=1550

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Taras

Fpìl oel futa zene fko sivar lì'ut a san takip sìk: Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, slä nì'aw pxey takip fo tolätxaw. Kefyak?



msg=225373 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 01:07:07 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

Tewti, oel fpìl futa livu ngaru tìyawr, ma Kemaweyan.  Irayo =)



msg=225431 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 04:00:28 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

...So now i've thought of another number question:

We have 'awlo (once) and melo (twice); can we expect a *pxeylo/pxelo (thrice)?  In English, "thrice" is considered archaic, and there are no dedicated words if you go higher—you'd just say something occurred "four times," for example.  So, how high does this -lo construct go?  And above that limit, what expression takes its place?



msg=225464 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 05:34:41 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…



msg=225502 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 08:49:31 | u=195

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

esoanem

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg225431#msg225431 date=1275624028]
...So now i've thought of another number question:

We have 'awlo (once) and melo (twice); can we expect a *pxeylo/pxelo (thrice)?  In English, "thrice" is considered archaic, and there are no dedicated words if you go higher—you'd just say something occurred "four times," for example.  So, how high does this -lo construct go?  And above that limit, what expression takes its place?
[/quote]

No way to tell.

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg225464#msg225464 date=1275629681]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…
[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing, also on pxey of course.

Also, that pxeya takip fo tolätxaw construction doesn't work, that would mean returned from among three hunters, the takip isn't needed.

I'd probably just say: [desc=seven hunters went into the forest, but only three returned]kinäa taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng slä pxisaronyu tolätxaw[/desc] instead, with a clear implication that they are from the same group. Also, I'm not sure that we can use nì'aw like that, nì'aw is literally one-ly so, has the same etymology as only, however the only we use here is a seperate lexeme more like merely, possible nì'it or nìhol would be more accurate.



msg=225521 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 09:34:02 | u=1550

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Taras

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg225464#msg225464 date=1275629681]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…
[/quote]

Ngaru tìyawr, slä nìawnomum aa -> aäa -> ä. Tafral san kìnä taronyu sìk fu san taronyu akinä sìk lu eyawr ::)



msg=225524 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 09:37:44 | u=195

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

esoanem

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225521#msg225521 date=1275644042]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg225464#msg225464 date=1275629681]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…
[/quote]

Ngaru tìyawr, slä nìawnomum aa -> aäa -> ä. Tafral san kìnä taronyu sìk fu san taronyu akinä sìk lu eyawr ::)
[/quote]

I knew aa went to a but when did we find out about äa?



msg=225532 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 09:54:00 | u=1550

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Taras

Oel ke tsun rivun, slä lam oer fwa lamu tengtsengmì a teri san aa sìk.



msg=225536 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:02:38 | u=195

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

esoanem

The closest I can find to that is when [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/language-update-a-closer-look-at-dr-frommers-letter/msg46529/#msg46529]this post by Roger[/url] stating that Frommer said that vowels contract. äa would need a special mention though because, unlike the obvious vowel contractions, it has two different vowels.



msg=225538 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:23:25 | u=2788

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Lance R. Casey

Actually, [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon#Attributive_a]the ruling[/url] we have is that äa and are "unstable", but "allowed".



msg=225540 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:27:08 | u=1550

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Taras

Ha tsun fko sivar mefya'oti, kefyak? San kinäa taronyu sìk sì san kìnä taronyu sìk lu eyawr ::)



msg=225544 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:35:19 | u=195

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

esoanem

kinäa is correct, but eithe kinä or kina would be more likely to be what you'd hear in coversation. Frommer didn't say which way it would contract when it did. I also assume that the same rule would apply to ìi/iì as does to äa/aä.



msg=225546 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:40:04 | u=1550

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Taras

Tsun fko sivung fìtìpawmit fìtseng ::)



msg=226306 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 22:41:59 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7157.msg225502#msg225502 date=1275641371]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg225431#msg225431 date=1275624028]
...So now i've thought of another number question:

We have 'awlo (once) and melo (twice); can we expect a *pxeylo/pxelo (thrice)?  In English, "thrice" is considered archaic, and there are no dedicated words if you go higher—you'd just say something occurred "four times," for example.  So, how high does this -lo construct go?  And above that limit, what expression takes its place?
[/quote]

No way to tell.

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg225464#msg225464 date=1275629681]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…
[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing, also on pxey of course.

Also, that pxeya takip fo tolätxaw construction doesn't work, that would mean returned from among three hunters, the takip isn't needed.

I'd probably just say: [desc=seven hunters went into the forest, but only three returned]kinäa taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng slä pxisaronyu tolätxaw[/desc] instead, with a clear implication that they are from the same group. Also, I'm not sure that we can use nì'aw like that, nì'aw is literally one-ly so, has the same etymology as only, however the only we use here is a seperate lexeme more like merely, possible nì'it or nìhol would be more accurate.
[/quote]

Your point about nì'aw is well taken, ma kemeoauniaea.  And yes, your sentence eliminates the problem for this specific example; but still, i'd like to know how (if possible) to form a construct that says "three of seven Xs," or variations on that theme.

Also, tangentially, i too am interested to see what the verdict will be regarding äa and ìi.  I agree that these will probably result in contraction.

In any case, fìtìpängkxori atxantsan ayngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan, ma smuk.  Ayngeyä aylì'ufa oe sleru kanu nì'ul.



msg=226503 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 08:23:30 | u=195

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

esoanem

For the three of seven, I've just had a thought, depending on some of the functions of a genitive in na'vi, it would be possible to say 3 of the seven hunters: [desc=three of them of the seven hunters]pxefo kinäa taronyuyä[/desc].



msg=226704 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 17:53:30 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

Tsasäfpìl sìlronsem leiu, ma kemeoauniaea, ulte oeru fì'u lam sìltsan.  Still, i would like to hear from Karyu Pawl—first on the details of the genitive.



msg=226735 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 18:58:31 | u=195

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

esoanem

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg226704#msg226704 date=1275760410]
Tsasäfpìl sìlronsem leiu, ma kemeoauniaea, ulte oeru fì'u lam sìltsan.  Still, i would like to hear from Karyu Pawl—first on the details of the genitive.
[/quote]

I agree, I'm just throwing out another tentative suggestion.

================

Anyway, a few questions have come from this:

Can nì'aw be used to mean only/merely or does it just mean only/on its own?

What functions other than possessive does the na'vi genitive have?

We can has ruling on äa/aä and ìi/iì when they do decay (even if this isn't strictly correct)?



msg=226808 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 20:48:53 | u=0

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7157.msg225544#msg225544 date=1275647719]
kinäa is correct, but eithe kinä or kina would be more likely to be what you'd hear in coversation. Frommer didn't say which way it would contract when it did. I also assume that the same rule would apply to ìi/iì as does to äa/aä.
[/quote]

I sent him an email about this EXACT issue; he never returned a thing.

BTW, where is he, anyway? We haven't received an update in sometime. I hope he's well.



msg=226828 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 21:08:55 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Finals, I guess … and he is a busy man, after all ;)


I’d like a confirmation on the usage of txan for temporal concepts – I stumbled across this in the Na’vi Nì’aw section. I was of the opinion that txan would mean »much (time)« / »long (period of time)« no matter what the temporal word was. So, when I wanted to say »many years«, I used txana ayzìsìt. It didn’t occur to me that it could also be pxay. But I don’t trust these countable/uncountable rules that apply for English, German (and other languages as well?) …



msg=227516 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 01:29:29 | u=430

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg226828#msg226828 date=1275772135]
[font=Garamond]Finals, I guess … and he is a busy man, after all ;)


I’d like a confirmation on the usage of txan for temporal concepts – I stumbled across this in the Na’vi Nì’aw section. I was of the opinion that txan would mean »much (time)« / »long (period of time)« no matter what the temporal word was. So, when I wanted to say »many years«, I used txana ayzìsìt. It didn’t occur to me that it could also be pxay. But I don’t trust these countable/uncountable rules that apply for English, German (and other languages as well?) …

[/quote]
He's still around but I imagine he could use a break. I know I would after having to grade papers.



msg=227577 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 06:47:01 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg226828#msg226828 date=1275772135]
[font=Garamond]Finals, I guess … and he is a busy man, after all ;)


I’d like a confirmation on the usage of txan for temporal concepts – I stumbled across this in the Na’vi Nì’aw section. I was of the opinion that txan would mean »much (time)« / »long (period of time)« no matter what the temporal word was. So, when I wanted to say »many years«, I used txana ayzìsìt. It didn’t occur to me that it could also be pxay. But I don’t trust these countable/uncountable rules that apply for English, German (and other languages as well?) …

[/quote]

Ma Plumps, i don't have the citation in front of me, but apparently there was a line Frommer translated that didn't make it into the film—something to the effect of, "short time, long time, it doesn't matter."  The line used txan and yol.



msg=227608 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 08:52:52 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg227577#msg227577 date=1275806821]
Ma Plumps, i don't have the citation in front of me, but apparently there was a line Frommer translated that didn't make it into the film—something to the effect of, "short time, long time, it doesn't matter."  The line used txan and yol.
[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Yes, I remember that message – that’s when we got clarification on yol not being »long time« :P
Now, I want to know if that holds true for all temporal aspects?
In English we have »much time« (uncountable) but »many years« (countable)
In German it’s »viel Zeit« (uncountable) but »viele Jahre« (countable)

Maybe it’s just a spleen right now *shrug* :P



msg=227627 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 10:06:13 | u=1746

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Carborundum

Has this been sent to Frommer yet? If not, reckon that the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/to-think/]question[/url] I had a while ago regarding the meaning of fpìl warrants inclusion.
The question was whether fpìl can be used to express opinion and belief as it can in English, or if it refers only to the cognitive process of thinking.



msg=227798 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 13:23:50 | u=0

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg227516#msg227516 date=1275787769]
He's still around but I imagine he could use a break. I know I would after having to grade papers.
[/quote]

Yeah...



msg=227955 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 16:28:40 | u=430

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=7157.msg227627#msg227627 date=1275818773]
Has this been sent to Frommer yet? If not, reckon that the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/to-think/]question[/url] I had a while ago regarding the meaning of fpìl warrants inclusion.
The question was whether fpìl can be used to express opinion and belief as it can in English, or if it refers only to the cognitive process of thinking.
[/quote]
I thought we had a ruling on this? I may just be making that up though.



msg=227959 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 16:35:55 | u=1746

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Carborundum

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg227955#msg227955 date=1275841720]
[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=7157.msg227627#msg227627 date=1275818773]
Has this been sent to Frommer yet? If not, reckon that the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/to-think/]question[/url] I had a while ago regarding the meaning of fpìl warrants inclusion.
The question was whether fpìl can be used to express opinion and belief as it can in English, or if it refers only to the cognitive process of thinking.
[/quote]
I thought we had a ruling on this? I may just be making that up though.
[/quote]No definite conclusion was reached in the thread in question at least. If we do have a ruling, I would be very interested in hearing it.



msg=227966 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 16:48:59 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

I can't seem to find it right now, but what about that quote from Karyu Pawl when he said, "I didn't think there was anyone who could speak Na'vi..." (or something like that)?



msg=227975 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 16:58:49 | u=195

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

esoanem

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg227966#msg227966 date=1275842939]
I can't seem to find it right now, but what about that quote from Karyu Pawl when he said, "I didn't think there was anyone who could speak Na'vi..." (or something like that)?
[/quote]

Just looked it up, it was "fparmìl oel futa".



msg=227982 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 17:08:18 | u=1746

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Carborundum

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7157.msg227975#msg227975 date=1275843529]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg227966#msg227966 date=1275842939]
I can't seem to find it right now, but what about that quote from Karyu Pawl when he said, "I didn't think there was anyone who could speak Na'vi..." (or something like that)?
[/quote]

Just looked it up, it was "fparmìl oel futa".
[/quote]Yes, that example was brought up in the thread. However, one might interpret it as meaning "I was thinking this thing...", i.e. not as expressing belief, but a statement of previously having entertained a certain thought.



msg=228042 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 17:59:59 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=7157.msg227982#msg227982 date=1275844098]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7157.msg227975#msg227975 date=1275843529]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg227966#msg227966 date=1275842939]
I can't seem to find it right now, but what about that quote from Karyu Pawl when he said, "I didn't think there was anyone who could speak Na'vi..." (or something like that)?
[/quote]

Just looked it up, it was "fparmìl oel futa".
[/quote]Yes, that example was brought up in the thread. However, one might interpret it as meaning "I was thinking this thing...", i.e. not as expressing belief, but a statement of previously having entertained a certain thought.
[/quote]

Tam, ma Carborundum; set oel tìketengit tslam.



msg=230331 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-08 01:44:19 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Word Meanings (well, lexical morphology)

We have a single example of reduplication: {letrrtrr}.  Is this iterative sense generalizable, for things like {nìtxontxon}, or even {nìvulvul po CLIMB utralit} "he climbed the tree branch by branch"? {nìtskxetskxe oe zola'u ka kilvan} "I went across the river rock-by-rock"?  Or more out there yet, {Tutetute holahaw} "Person-by-person (they) (fell) asleep"?



msg=230402 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-08 06:12:13 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg230331#msg230331 date=1275961459]
{nìkxetsekxetse oe zola'u ka kilvan} "I went across the river rock-by-rock"?  [/quote]

[font=Garamond]*hrh* That would be »… tail by tail« ;D – but I like it :)
I think you mean {nìtskxetskxe}



msg=230885 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-08 16:06:28 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg230402#msg230402 date=1275977533]
I think you mean {nìtskxetskxe}[/quote]

D'oh!  That's not the first time I've confused those words.



msg=243959 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-21 21:23:45 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Vocabulary/Lexicon

Ideophones?  (I think they're called "expressives" in Malay/Indonesian linguistics.)



msg=244116 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-22 00:36:02 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg243959#msg243959 date=1277155425]
Vocabulary/Lexicon

Ideophones?  (I think they're called "expressives" in Malay/Indonesian linguistics.)
[/quote]

Ooh, yeah; good call.  I'd like to have some of those.



msg=248985 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-27 04:58:54 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

Kaltxì, ma smuk.  Random thought (apologies if it's been brought up before):

Does lenition occur on proper names?  Like, does fpi+ Tsu'tey become *fpi Su'tey? 

The only real-word example i know of is consonant changes in Turkish:  Some suffixes cause lenition (i suppose that would be the term) to some consonants at the ends of the words they affix to.  So, for example, if you want to say "my angel," that's melek+im-->meleğim.  If, however, you have a friend named Angel (about whom you're feeling possessive), Melek+im instead becomes Melek'im.  The important point here, though, is that even though the original spelling is retained in the case of proper nouns, the pronunciation still changes as usual.  But Na'vi, obviously, doesn't actually have a writing system.

So, what do you think?



msg=281684 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-06 14:49:39 | u=2788

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Lance R. Casey

(Catching up on stuff)

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg248985#msg248985 date=1277614734]
So, what do you think?
[/quote]

That it is a good question, and it also touches upon a more general one. If I am to say, say, "in his village", what happens if is juxtaposed with peyä tsray? Do we get an ambiguous *mì feyä tsray, or does the lenition "jump" to produce *mì peyä sray (which, of course, is also ambiguous) -- or is there no lenition at all? Same goes for things like "at the big tree": *ro sawla utral or *ro tsawla utral? Now, the situation can easily be avoided by reordering the words and/or cliticizing the adpositions -- and perhaps this is even mandated (or at least preferred) in such cases.



msg=284712 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-12 01:19:30 | u=73

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Prrton

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg281684#msg281684 date=1281106179]
(Catching up on stuff)

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg248985#msg248985 date=1277614734]
So, what do you think?
[/quote]

That it is a good question, and it also touches upon a more general one. If I am to say, say, "in his village", what happens if is juxtaposed with peyä tsray? Do we get an ambiguous *mì feyä tsray, or does the lenition "jump" to produce *mì peyä sray (which, of course, is also ambiguous) -- or is there no lenition at all? Same goes for things like "at the big tree": *ro sawla utral or *ro tsawla utral? Now, the situation can easily be avoided by reordering the words and/or cliticizing the adpositions -- and perhaps this is even mandated (or at least preferred) in such cases.
[/quote]

Partial answer... [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/the-two-songs-that-didnt-make-it-into-the-asg/]2nd line of the Spiral Song[/url].

Lenition does not "reach across" an intervening element to affect the noun targeted by the adposition.

However, in the example we don't have our full satisfaction.

I am under the impression that lenition does affect pre-nouns, but could be very wrong.

  e.g.: Ro satseng yolom fol.




msg=284774 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-12 02:44:06 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

Good catch, ma Prrton.



msg=289791 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-19 15:18:13 | u=5958

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

MIPP

I think I found something new *.*

A few days ago I was reading the wikipedia in Portuguese, and I found an interesting thing about diphthongs. Looks like in Portuguese, there are "growing diphtongs" (I don't know the word in English, I'm sorry), which are diphthongs, but reversed. E.g. A normal diphthong would be: "ay" or "aw", and a growing one would be "wa" or "ya". You know what I mean, right? So, I checked the Na'vi dictionary and I noticed something: Y and W are always in diphtongs: either the normal ones (aw, ay, ew, ey) or reversed (ya, yo, wi, etc).

I'm putting it here because I don't know if anyone has ever noticed it...

Well, in portuguese it is called as a "Ditongo Crescente Oral", which literally means "Oral growing diphtong". Here is the link: [url=http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonologia_da_l%C3%ADngua_portuguesa]http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonologia_da_l%C3%ADngua_portuguesa[/url]. Use CTRL+F to find the text:
[quote]Ditongos crescentes orais
/wa/\



msg=293601 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 11:20:06 | u=2788

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg281684#msg281684 date=1281106179]
If I am to say, say, "in his village", what happens if is juxtaposed with peyä tsray? Do we get an ambiguous *mì feyä tsray, or does the lenition "jump" to produce *mì peyä sray (which, of course, is also ambiguous) -- or is there no lenition at all? Same goes for things like "at the big tree": *ro sawla utral or *ro tsawla utral? Now, the situation can easily be avoided by reordering the words and/or cliticizing the adpositions -- and perhaps this is even mandated (or at least preferred) in such cases.
[/quote]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/fmawno/]Tì'eyng poläheiem![/url] :)



msg=294172 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-25 04:12:44 | u=132

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Taronyu

Mipp, refer to this thread:

[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/some-ipa-news/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/some-ipa-news/[/url]



msg=305407 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-08 17:23:29 | u=759

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

xMine

I'm really interested in the na'vi number system,
so I wanted to know if there is a way to say decimal numbers like 3.14.
Further I'm interested in dates:
Wouldn't be awesome to have a way to say dates nìNa’vi? Maybe this is
already stated somewhere above ;)

So:
1. Do the na'vi have something like months?
2. If yes, how many? They don't have to 12 months, it would be no surprise
at all, if they had like 8 months. (Actually I'd appreciate names other than
"first month", "second month", ... ;) )
3. How to say a date and time?
Not so important in my opinion:
4. Numbers larger than [desc=32767]kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin[/desc]
5. Negative numbers
6. Decimal numbers

Oeru txoa livu, txo tuteo srekrr pamawm...
Kìyevame



msg=305731 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-08 23:41:04 | u=6713

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Peyä Tìrol

There are some Terran languages without some of those concepts, alu negative values, fractional values, and even zero (which Na'vi at least has).

For months, I believe we use zìsìtvi, although we don't have a very clear understanding of Pandora's period around Polyphemus, or Polyphemus's period around ACA, and only Norm uses zìsìt, referring to Earth years. The best we can do, thus, is 1st month, 2nd month, and so on... July could be zìsìtvikive, etc.



msg=305923 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 09:41:40 | u=2788

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Payä Tìrol link=topic=7157.msg305731#msg305731 date=1283989264]
For months, I believe we use zìsìtvi, although we don't have a very clear understanding of Pandora's period around Polyphemus, or Polyphemus's period around ACA, and only Norm uses zìsìt, referring to Earth years. The best we can do, thus, is 1st month, 2nd month, and so on... July could be zìsìtvikive, etc.[/quote]

On that note:

[quote=Frommer]Zìsìtviri lì’u lu sìltsan, slä vay set ke pole’un oel tseyä ralit. Kxawm livu “month,” slä kxawm kop livu “season.” Zene oe pive’un ye’rìn.[/quote]



msg=305928 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 10:04:30 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]According to Taronyu’s Dictionary we have zìsìkrr for »season« now…



msg=305938 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 10:25:52 | u=2788

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg305928#msg305928 date=1284026670]
[font=Georgia]According to Taronyu’s Dictionary we have zìsìkrr for »season« now…
[/quote]

Yeah, that was revealed in a Na'viteri post in the middle of July, but the quote above is from an email sent just a couple of weeks ago. There may be nuances of meaning involved.



msg=305983 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 12:43:48 | u=132

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Taronyu

For those who want what I consider the most detailed analysis of Pandoran astronomy (which deals with month, day, week times), go here:

[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/trrtxonteri/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/trrtxonteri/[/url]



msg=305987 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 13:12:27 | u=6713

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Peyä Tìrol

Yup, I was more referring to that we don't know really how long those periods would be, from an Earth sense, just the names of some of those periods...



msg=306143 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 17:14:34 | u=2909

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Kayrìlion

[quote author=xMine link=topic=7157.msg305407#msg305407 date=1283966609]
I'm really interested in the na'vi number system,
so I wanted to know if there is a way to say decimal numbers like 3.14.
[/quote]

The trick with non-integral numbers in Na'vi is that because they have an octal system to begin with, what we think of as "decimal places" could only exist within a hypothetical Na'vi system as "octal places", where the first number after the period is the number of eighths, the second number is the number of sixty-fourths, the third is the number of five-hundred-twelfths, and so on.

You can do the math to figure it out, but to be honest, the Na'vi themselves have no need for a way to represent non-integral numbers that are not simple fractions like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc. Because I'm REALLY bored, I bothered to figure out part of that sample number for you if you're really curious, but yeah...the Na'vi would never do this. It's just not necessary for their culture.

[spoiler]The number 3.14 (I'm assuming you actually mean "three and fourteen hundredths" and NOT some rounding of Pi) would have to be represented as:

Three wholes (3), leaving (0.14 decimal)
One eighth (0.125), leaving (0.015 decimal)
Zero sixty-fourths (a sixty-fourth is 0.015625)
Seven five-hundred-twelfths (0.013671875), leaving (0.001328125 decimal)
Five four-thousand-ninety-sixths (0.001220703125), leaving (0.000107421875 decimal)
Three thirty-two-thousand-seven-hundred-sixty-eighths (0.000091552734375), leaving (0.000015869140625 decimal)

I could continue, because, since the number can be represented as a fraction, it will eventually develop a repeating period, but the Windows calculator doesn't display any more digits, so you're going to get an approximation. [/spoiler]

3.14 decimal is approximately 3.10753 octal.

Kayrìlien



msg=306171 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 17:47:53 | u=73

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Prrton

[quote author=Kayrìlien link=topic=7157.msg306143#msg306143 date=1284052474]
[quote author=xMine link=topic=7157.msg305407#msg305407 date=1283966609]
I'm really interested in the na'vi number system,
so I wanted to know if there is a way to say decimal numbers like 3.14.
[/quote]

The trick with non-integral numbers in Na'vi is that because they have an octal system to begin with, what we think of as "decimal places" could only exist within a hypothetical Na'vi system as "octal places", where the first number after the period is the number of eighths, the second number is the number of sixty-fourths, the third is the number of five-hundred-twelfths, and so on.

You can do the math to figure it out, but to be honest, the Na'vi themselves have no need for a way to represent non-integral numbers that are not simple fractions like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc. Because I'm REALLY bored, I bothered to figure out part of that sample number for you if you're really curious, but yeah...the Na'vi would never do this. It's just not necessary for their culture.

[spoiler]The number 3.14 (I'm assuming you actually mean "three and fourteen hundredths" and NOT some rounding of Pi) would have to be represented as:

Three wholes (3), leaving (0.14 decimal)
One eighth (0.125), leaving (0.015 decimal)
Zero sixty-fourths (a sixty-fourth is 0.015625)
Seven five-hundred-twelfths (0.013671875), leaving (0.001328125 decimal)
Five four-thousand-ninety-sixths (0.001220703125), leaving (0.000107421875 decimal)
Three thirty-two-thousand-seven-hundred-sixty-eighths (0.000091552734375), leaving (0.000015869140625 decimal)

I could continue, because, since the number can be represented as a fraction, it will eventually develop a repeating period, but the Windows calculator doesn't display any more digits, so you're going to get an approximation. [/spoiler]

3.14 decimal is approximately 3.10753 octal.

Kayrìlien

[/quote]

Very impressive, ma Kayrìlien!!

This math is so beyond my brain's ability that I can't even begin to explain.

I believe that we need "simple fractions" and that the Na'vi would have them à la something like [font=Candara]«°3pxì|°5ta», and I've proposed things like this in the (distant) past to K. Pawl, but no answers yet. This is a good opportunity to bring it up again, but I agree that full on mathematics (like the Mayan system, for example) would be unlikely within Na'vi society/arts. I also expect that he might create a unique root for "half" an 1/4 and 3/4 might end up roughly abstracted and mapped to something like [font=Candara]«hì’pxì» and [font=Candara]«txampxì» (which we already have). But, these are just guesses on my part.

Thanks so much for all the rigor. I personally really appreciate (and admire) it.  ;D




msg=306183 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 18:09:50 | u=2909

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Kayrìlion

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7157.msg306171#msg306171 date=1284054473]
[quote author=Kayrìlien link=topic=7157.msg306143#msg306143 date=1284052474][spoiler]
[quote author=xMine link=topic=7157.msg305407#msg305407 date=1283966609][spoiler]
I'm really interested in the na'vi number system,
so I wanted to know if there is a way to say decimal numbers like 3.14.[/spoiler]
[/quote]

The trick with non-integral numbers in Na'vi is that because they have an octal system to begin with, what we think of as "decimal places" could only exist within a hypothetical Na'vi system as "octal places", where the first number after the period is the number of eighths, the second number is the number of sixty-fourths, the third is the number of five-hundred-twelfths, and so on.

You can do the math to figure it out, but to be honest, the Na'vi themselves have no need for a way to represent non-integral numbers that are not simple fractions like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc. Because I'm REALLY bored, I bothered to figure out part of that sample number for you if you're really curious, but yeah...the Na'vi would never do this. It's just not necessary for their culture.

[spoiler]The number 3.14 (I'm assuming you actually mean "three and fourteen hundredths" and NOT some rounding of Pi) would have to be represented as:

Three wholes (3), leaving (0.14 decimal)
One eighth (0.125), leaving (0.015 decimal)
Zero sixty-fourths (a sixty-fourth is 0.015625)
Seven five-hundred-twelfths (0.013671875), leaving (0.001328125 decimal)
Five four-thousand-ninety-sixths (0.001220703125), leaving (0.000107421875 decimal)
Three thirty-two-thousand-seven-hundred-sixty-eighths (0.000091552734375), leaving (0.000015869140625 decimal)

I could continue, because, since the number can be represented as a fraction, it will eventually develop a repeating period, but the Windows calculator doesn't display any more digits, so you're going to get an approximation. [/spoiler]

3.14 decimal is approximately 3.10753 octal.

Kayrìlien
[/spoiler]
[/quote]

Very impressive, ma Kayrìlien!!

This math is so beyond my brain's ability that I can't even begin to explain.

I believe that we need "simple fractions" and that the Na'vi would have them à la something like [font=Candara]«°3pxì|°5ta», and I've proposed things like this in the (distant) past to K. Pawl, but no answers yet. This is a good opportunity to bring it up again, but I agree that full on mathematics (like the Mayan system, for example) would be unlikely within Na'vi society/arts. I also expect that he might create a unique root for "half" an 1/4 and 3/4 might end up roughly abstracted and mapped to something like [font=Candara]«hì’pxì» and [font=Candara]«txampxì» (which we already have). But, these are just guesses on my part.

Thanks so much for all the rigor. I personally really appreciate (and admire) it.  ;D


[/quote]

I definitely agree with you about needing simple fractions. I'm sure that even in a highly communal society, the Na'vi have undoubtedly run into the situation of "Well, there are fifteen hunters and five sturmbeest carcasses...how do we divide up the meat?" and probably just counted things out. Even without a formal number system, they would definitely be able to divide things up fairly, and even then, with such loose definitions of personal ownership in their society, I can't fathom an argument breaking out because "Hey! Tsu'tey got more meat than I did!" They're more giving than that.

I'm not a language expert by any means, but do you know if "half" has its own root in languages besides English? Like...all of our other fractions are just based on the numbers themselves (or their Latin roots), but as far as I know, "half" is sort of a special case.

Hehe...thanks for complementing my "I'm really bored so why not?" math. I can imagine the scientist in Grace upon finding out the Na'vi number system is octal going a bit haywire. "Let's see, if there are ten to the twelfth connections between the trees, that'd be eight to the...uh...hmm, six, seven, eight, no, but that's really ten...eleven...Aaargh, I can't figure this out! Guys, who's got my God damn cigarette!"

Kayrìlien



msg=306207 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 18:51:32 | u=73

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Prrton

[quote author=Kayrìlien link=topic=7157.msg306183#msg306183 date=1284055790]

I'm not a language expert by any means, but do you know if "half" has its own root in languages besides English? Like...all of our other fractions are just based on the numbers themselves (or their Latin roots), but as far as I know, "half" is sort of a special case.

[/quote]

for "half":



Half is a very handy thing to have. I don't know what Japanese and Korean had before the Chinese influence, but I imagine it was 'something'.  ;)




msg=306230 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 19:25:24 | u=6713

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Peyä Tìrol

Chinese also does that whole x分之y ("divided between") thing, which works like y/x

I could see Na'vi using something similar.



msg=309324 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-13 20:19:47 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

So, i was thinking this morning, we need a way to talk about asking/giving permission, e.g.,

"May i go hunt?"
"Yes, you may."

Since English at least often uses "may" and "can" somewhat interchangeably, it's possible that tsun will get drafted for this task.  Still, i'd like a definitive answer.



msg=309369 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-13 20:47:05 | u=1550

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Taras

In russian we use one word for "can" and "may". Maybe in Na'vi we also can use tsun for both this words :)



msg=309390 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-13 21:09:38 | u=4754

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I agree with most others for words for simple fractions. 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4th would cover most needs. A word for fraction bar would be interesting and useful to us, but how useful to a Na`vi?
We also have generic fractional term - hapxì. Decimals? Again, useful to us, probably not a concept the Na`vi have.

But functional math-- that is truly interesting to think about. Since they have a pretty complete number system (which includes zero), they probably have the ability to at minimum add and subtract. Whether they can do more math, like multiply and divide, is almost a James Cameron question. But it wouldn't surprise me if they can.

If they can do the basic 'four function' math, then I bet they are aware of the concept of pi. This is something that would be immediately useful in constructing almost anything that is round. That said, it would almost certainly be a fraction and not a decimal, and probably a fairly crude one (by our standards) at that.

Beyond pi, I doubt they have much in the way of higher math. One possibility though, might be a means to extract a square or cube root. Such calculations were vital to the construction of siege engines. I think it had something to do with the diameter of sinew bundles (used as torsion springs) as it related to some other aspect of the machine's design. This was so important to the early military designers that they built a simple mechanical device for extracting cube roots. If I recall, it looked like a carpenter's square of some sort, and was somehow laid over a line drawn on something. The users of this device did not understand they were extracting a cube root. Instead, they had apparently learned this particular relationship through trial and error measurements, and made a tool that allowed them to easily figure out this dimension for other sized components.



msg=309412 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-13 21:28:12 | u=6582

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7157.msg309390#msg309390 date=1284412178]
I agree with most others for words for simple fractions. 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4th would cover most needs. A word for fraction bar would be interesting and useful to us, but how useful to a Na`vi?
[/quote]

Probably not as useful as fko might think, as the Na'vi don't write.  However, a good way to be able to speak fractions in Na'vi would be nice (e.g. ½ = 'Aw... mune, or ½ = Mune...'Aw).

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7157.msg309390#msg309390 date=1284412178]
If they can do the basic 'four function' math, then I bet they are aware of the concept of pi.
[/quote]

That sounds like quite a leap, even for the sawtute on 'Rrta.  I'm almost certain a Na'vi would be able to conceptualize fractions before decimals, and even before some advanced number like [desc=Even an approximation]π[/desc].  What made you think that?




msg=309490 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 00:18:24 | u=6713

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Peyä Tìrol

The concept of pi? Sure, but perhaps not in any more detail than "to pxey lu nì'it txan" :P

There is also a slight difference between may and can in English too. May implies permission, while can implies ability, although this distinction is mostly blurred now.



msg=309579 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 02:54:21 | u=4754

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Payä Tìrol link=topic=7157.msg309490#msg309490 date=1284423504]
The concept of pi? Sure, but perhaps not in any more detail than "to pxey lu nì'it txan" :P
[/quote]
Perhaps you really mean to pxey lu nì'it hì`i ???

I could see the concept of pi (rather than pi itself) becoming apparent when someone is say, preparing sheets of leather to wrap around a drum frame. Perhaps over time, they noticed that amount of leather required was just a bit over three times the diameter of the drum frame. To make it easier to make drums, maybe they figured out that (and this is a bit of a stretch) that they need 22 units of leather for every seven units of drum diameter. They may have even made a tool that calculates this relationship similar to the tool I described earlier, which extracts a cube root. As far as understanding the concept of pi as a very important transcendental number, that is reserved for my fictitious high-tech Na`vi tribe living mostly underground on the other side of Pandora  :-X



msg=309588 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 03:14:05 | u=6713

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Peyä Tìrol

I meant "pi" to pxey lu nì'it txan... pi is slightly greater than 3. I'm pretty sure to always attaches to the thing being compared against in the manner an adposition would.



msg=309619 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 05:27:59 | u=4754

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Payä Tìrol link=topic=7157.msg309588#msg309588 date=1284434045]
I meant "pi" to pxey lu nì'it txan... pi is slightly greater than 3. I'm pretty sure to always attaches to the thing being compared against in the manner an adposition would.
[/quote]

The way you originally worded it, the comparison was not obvious, and I treated to as simply 'than'. So to me, it read 'Than three be slightly larger', which meant to me that pi was inferred as being less than 3.



msg=309626 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 06:25:08 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I don’t see the need for higher math… zero, as far as I remember was a convenience for us ›Earthlings‹ to be able to tell phone numbers…
Honestly, I don’t see why the Na’vi would need that.

A kinship paradigm, the spacial directions (north, east, south, west etc.) and verbs are far more important tì’efumì oeyä



msg=309844 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 15:37:02 | u=6713

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Peyä Tìrol

Yeah, mixing English and Na'vi doesn't always work as intended :/

Also, I was kind of surprised when I found that 0 was represented in Na'vi, considering they don't seem that big on mathematics, which almost seems like a prerequisite for 0, on Earth at least. It makes much more sense to me if it falls under the same umbrella as 8 and 9...



msg=310051 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 19:31:26 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

I have a new thought—about thought, actually.

In English, we have the questions "What do you think?" and "What are you thinking?", which, maddeningly enough, don't mean the same thing.

"What do you think?" is short for "What do you think of/about X"—what are your thoughts on a specific topic?

"What are you thinking?" is a more general question, akin to "What's on your mind?"

In [desc=I think.  Francophones, please correct me]French[/desc], the former is covered with Qu'est-ce que tu penses? and the latter with Qu'en penses-tu? (although, for the former, one can also ask Comment tu trouves X?—lit., How do you find X?)

(And then, of course, there's also "What were you thinking?", which is more of a "you did something really stupid and i can't imagine how you thought it was a good plan" thing, but we can tackle that idiom some other day...)

So, how do we ask these questions in Na'vi?

If we don't already have answers, i would like to humbly put forth my own suggestions:  

"What do you think [ of X ]?" could be conveyed with [ X-ìri ] fyape fpìl nga?—although you could make a case for going the French route and saying X-it pefya ngal run?

Then, for "What are you thinking?", i'd say either Ngari aysäfpìl lu peu?, or the somewhat more idiomatic Ngari aysäfpìlìl tok pesengit?

So, what do you think, ma smuktu?

Ngaytxoa if this has already been covered; i looked but didn't find it anywhere.

Edit:  Went in and fixed a spelling error.  This is what happens when my brain runs on autopilot...



msg=310054 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 19:40:11 | u=1746

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Carborundum

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7157.msg310051#msg310051 date=1284492686]
STUFF
[/quote]
I've actually raised this very question a few times before, but never gotten a satisfactory answer.
I'm all for including it in the workshop, obviously.



msg=310236 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 22:45:55 | u=2788

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg309626#msg309626 date=1284445508]
[font=Georgia]the spacial directions (north, east, south, west etc.)
[/quote]

This should indeed be a priority. Here's some extended context:

Klingon does not have four cardinal directions, but three: chan, 'ev and tIng. The first is, simply, due east. The other two are, more or less, 40 degrees west of north and south, respectively, so it's not quite as simple as a division into thirds. To get more specific, any of these terms can be combined, e.g. 'ev tIng or tIng 'ev would signify due west (the middle of 'ev and tIng) etc. Also, as with other directional words in Klingon, these are not actually directions per se, but rather nouns carrying the notion of "area toward the east" and so on, so they are used in a genitive relationship with something else. For example, "I saw the eastern sky grow dark" would be rendered as HurghchoH chan chal 'e' vIlegh (lit. "I saw the sky of the area to the east grow dark").

Turning back to our own world, the Sámi have (or at least originally had) a different basic conception. If you look in a North Sámi-Swedish dictionary, you might find lulip with the meaning "east", oarjip for "south", alip for "west", and nuortap for "north". However, if you looked in the corresponding Norwegian dictionary instead, the same words (or variants thereof) would stand for different directions! But how come?

Well, the answer can be sought in that the underlying concepts are more relative than they are absolute. Even within Sweden, as much is evident from the maps of the mountain areas, where there are a number of places where a feature designated alip is situated directly north of its lulip counterpart. Much of Sámi society has been centered around the reindeer for hundreds of years, and they move up into and down from the mountains with the seasons. In northern Sweden, the rivers rise in the west (the Scandinavian Mountains making up the border to Norway, as well as the central watershed of the peninsula) and flow to the Gulf of Bothnia in the east, and their courses have long served as migration routes, directly or indirectly. So, rather than signifying "west" as such, alip is perhaps better thought of as "upstream the waterways, towards the mountains" and lulip "downstream the waterways, towards the sea" -- and if the river happens to be running in a north/south direction at a certain place, "irregularities" as per above can occur.



msg=310249 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 23:22:17 | u=3552

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

tigermind

Ma Lance, i just want to say that your Sámi example is the single coolest thing i've read all day.



msg=310251 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 23:34:23 | u=21

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

wm.annis

Also see: pp 250-254, especially the diagram on p.252, in this [url=http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~survey/documents/dissertations/golla-1970.pdf]Hupa Grammar[/url] for an even more complex system.



msg=310405 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-15 04:58:38 | u=6582

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg309626#msg309626 date=1284445508]
[font=Georgia]I don’t see the need for higher math… zero, as far as I remember was a convenience for us ›Earthlings‹ to be able to tell phone numbers…
Honestly, I don’t see why the Na’vi would need that.

A kinship paradigm, the spacial directions (north, east, south, west etc.) and verbs are far more important tì’efumì oeyä

[/quote]

Mllte nìwotx.  Irayo for getting it across, ma Plumps.



msg=310443 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-15 07:53:46 | u=631

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]And there I thought I over reacted 8) Don’t get me wrong, I see the usefulness of halves, quarters and so on and I don’t want to play down the Na’vi’s ability for higher mathematics. Look at the old Egyptians, Mayans, Aztec and so on… Their maths, especially for calculating star constellations is amazingly precise! Then again, that was knowledge only known to the ruling or priest-like class.

Ma Lance, ma William,

I was reminded of that again by reading the NYT [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html?_r=1]article[/url] that K. Pawl suggested in his latest blog, the directional system of the Guugu Yimithirr people really racked my brain … but in a good way :D

The Klingon system is indeed interesting and I couldn’t remember one bit having read that anywhere when I dealt with the language.

The Hupa text is highly interesting.

On a similar note, I remember that the dwarves in Tolkien’s world orient(?) their maps eastwards which makes looking at a atxkxerel rather disorienting at first glance…

I know I ‘hated’ the Irish directional system although it’s not that complicated… They mostly differenciate between the speaker in motion or positional (similar to what we have in Na’vi with neto and mìso). But you also distinguish a movement away from the speaker and toward the speaker. So there are at least 3 words for e.g. ‘above’

Tá mé thuas. – I am above/on top.
Tá tú ag dul suas. – You go up.
Tá sé ag teacht anuas. – He comes down/from above.
So, although one root (*uas) remains the same, the meaning changes depending on the relative position of the speaker; and the verb you use. (Something like *tá mé ag dul anuas. would not be possible)

Same goes for ‘down’, ‘east’, ‘west/behind’ and ‘yonder’
Every time it’s confusing to me to think myself into that fpìlfya but it definitely makes you more aware of your surrounding…



msg=311362 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-16 20:43:13 | u=2788

Re: Combining Our Efforts II

Lance R. Casey

The subjects from this thread have now been collected into a [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/navi-language-workshop-the-poll-of-outstanding-questions/]poll[/url] which will run for three days. EVERYONE is encouraged to go there and vote upon which questions are the most important to request answers to.

In the meantime, this thread is locked.



msg=154683 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:45:01 | u=54

Just a few interesting little words.

Tiger

A couple words that got tossed in a response from Kawyu Pawl...

As a derivation, lesar means "useful".
What seems like the interjection "Well...", tse.
And a word skxom for chance, oppertunity.

lesar - adj. useful (fìtìkangkem layu lesar nìtxan frapor) (Stress assumed based off ALL other le- based derivations)
skxom - n. chance (pamrel sayi trray krr a skxom latsu oeru)
tse - intj. well (Tse...  zene pivlltxe san pxìm tsafya lu sìk)

And another example of the -o suffix with ayupxareo (Some messages)

Also, if you write to Paul in Na'vi, it may delay the response a bit because he likes to respond in kind, but wants everything to be perfect before he sends it, so it can take time.  Ironically, after responding to my email in Na'vi, he sent another message a few minutes later correcting something.  I wouldn't bother mentioning this, except the correction itself carries some implications on usage.

He had said "Tsa'u kop krrnekx" but corrected it to "Tsakem kop krrnekx" because actions take time, not things or ideas.  The implication I got off that is that if you know you are talking about something specific like actions, you shouldn't use the generic 'u.



msg=154699 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:59:04 | u=631

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Thanks so much for that - very .... lesar ;)



msg=154803 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:28:58 | u=54

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

Tiger

Ooh ooh, I forgot one little gem I've been wondering about and suspecting but is now confirmed.

As would be implied by the "srake" form, it does not need to be sentence final.  I'd asked a question, and he repeated it before answering, but he worded it with srake first rather than srak last.



msg=154809 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:35:53 | u=0

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7166.msg154803#msg154803 date=1269300538]
Ooh ooh, I forgot one little gem I've been wondering about and suspecting but is now confirmed.

As would be implied by the "srake" form, it does not need to be sentence final.  I'd asked a question, and he repeated it before answering, but he worded it with srake first rather than srak last.
[/quote]

Tse...that's just awesome. Srak, for me, is [desc=a bitch kitty]difficult[/desc] to render in final position.



msg=154815 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:39:09 | u=1225

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

neotrekkerz

So either srake at the start of the sentence, or srak at the end, but never in between?



msg=154818 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:43:29 | u=21

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7166.msg154803#msg154803 date=1269300538]As would be implied by the "srake" form, it does not need to be sentence final.  I'd asked a question, and he repeated it before answering, but he worded it with srake first rather than srak last.[/quote]

Huh.  I wonder what sort of implication can be worked into that.  Maybe something like the German particle use of "ja"?



msg=154822 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:50:30 | u=54

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

Tiger

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7166.msg154815#msg154815 date=1269301149]
So either srake at the start of the sentence, or srak at the end, but never in between?
[/quote]More like...  It can be at the start or end, we don't know if it can be in between (But TBH I don't see why not.)



msg=154989 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 04:49:57 | u=1120

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

roger

Can you quote the question, so that we can see srake in action at the beginning of a clause?



msg=155001 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 05:02:13 | u=54

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

Tiger

Nothing terribly exciting about it...

Me: Cun ga clivam fayupxare leNa'vi ftu ayoe nìftue srak?
Pawl: Srake cun oe fayupxaret clivam nìftue?
Not a direct "san...sìk" quote - his words repeating my question, asked to himself.



msg=155021 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 05:22:43 | u=1120

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

roger

Cool.



msg=155177 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 10:34:24 | u=0

Re: Just a few interesting little words.

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7166.msg155001#msg155001 date=1269320533]
Me: Cun ga clivam fayupxare leNa'vi ftu ayoe nìftue srak?
Pawl: Srake cun oe fayupxaret clivam nìftue?
[/quote]

::sigh:: Scientific form.



msg=155093 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:17:32 | u=1120

misc. answers

roger

A few answers to my questions:

When asked which of several defs of 'responsible' kllfro' is:
[quote]
Yes, it is a compound, and the first element is indeed kll 'ground.' But I haven't yet decided on what the fro' part means.

The idea is to be responsible for someone or something--that is, having s.o. or s.t. as your "job, duty, or area of concern" (as my desk dictionary puts it).

The line in the original script was Moat's, when she tells Neytiri that she (Neytiri) will be the one to ensure Jake's progress in learning the ways of the Na'vi:

Pori zene kllfrivo' nga. 'He is your responsibility.'
[/quote]
On what happens with infixing stressed syllabic C's:
[quote]
In a case like frrfen, where the stress is on frr, the ipfv remains frrfen:

frrfen (stress on 1st) + <er> --> *ferrrfen > frrfen

When the stress is not on the pseudovowel, however, it drops:

plltxe (stress on 2nd) + <ol> --> *pollltxe > poltxe
[/quote]
When asked about ay sometimes being a diphthong, and sometimes V+C:
[quote]
Keep in mind that ay, ey, aw, ew are diphthongs as well as VC's. (In tsawl, for example, you know the aw is a diphthong, because if it weren't, you'd have a syllable ending in two C's, which is prohibited.)

So the syllabification will tell you which you have. For example:

tswayon is tsway.on, indicating that the ay is a diphthong.
But layon is la.yon, indicating that the y is a consonant.

(I'm not sure there's much consequence to these distinctions--the pronunciations seem pretty much the same.)

Similar things hold for w.

[...]
In general, the tendency with VCV is to syllabify as V.CV rather than VC.V (assuming there's a choice--i.e., that C is one of the consonants that can appear in syllable-final position).

So the default is V.gV, as in mu.ge, a.u.gi.a, etc.

For 'egeg, the word may have originated as a reduplicated form: *'eg'eg < 'eg + 'eg, which would favor 'eg.eg.

Same with kagagag, which is clearly onomatopoetic: kag + ag + ag (a bang with two echos), hence kag.ag.ag. If you separated it as ka.ga.gag, it would lose the echo effect.
[/quote]
Thus several cases, such as ayoe, where syllabification follows morphology rather than normal CVCV pattern. (I'd left that as another question, but it seems to be indirectly answered here.) It should be noted, however, that in practice Paul pronounces ayoe as /a.'jo.e/, not /aj.'o.e/ as he transcribes it, and that there is also liaison across word boundaries (ma sute Amerika /ma.'su.ta.'me.ri.ka/), so this is presumably only relevant for careful enunciation.

I'd asked about the pattern of the seder, where if I had done it, I would have had contrasting topic constructions:
[quote]
As for fìtxon vs. fìtxonìri, I considered your version but decided against it: all those "-ìri's" sounded too sing-songy to me. Since fìtxon, unadorned, can be used adverbially (i.e. 'tonight'), I think the form without the ending is justifiable.

So instead of:

As for all other nights, we do X; as for this night, we do Y

we have instead:

As for all other nights, we do X; (but) tonight we do Y

Both versions seem OK to me.
[/quote]
That is, the expected contrast between two topics may well be the grammatical norm, but was decided against here for stylistic reasons.

Confirmed that txll’u "hookagourd" is a legit word.
[quote]
It's a real word and a new root. You're right--the majority of the plant names are compounds (along the lines of "sunflower") but some are roots (like "rose," "crocus").
[/quote]
So no need to try to extract "hookah" and "gourd" from it! I'd only asked about this one word in that email, as it looked so obviously Na'vi. I don't know about several others; he hasn't gotten back to me on them.



msg=155181 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 10:43:22 | u=631

Re: misc. answers

Plumps83

[quote author=roger link=topic=7187.msg155093#msg155093 date=1269328652]
[quote]
In a case like frrfen, where the stress is on frr, the ipfv remains frrfen:

frrfen (stress on 1st) + <er> --> *ferrrfen > frrfen

When the stress is not on the pseudovowel, however, it drops:

plltxe (stress on 2nd) + <ol> --> *pollltxe > poltxe
[/quote][/quote]

[font=Garamond]Interesting bits! Thanks for sharing!!!

Do you know what happens if the imperfective merges with the subjunctive? Does this rule still hold true then? Or is it *firvrrfen? I can't quite see the linguistic reasons behind that, really... :-\\
Thanks for considering



msg=155246 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:47:54 | u=21

Re: misc. answers

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7187.msg155181#msg155181 date=1269341002]Do you know what happens if the imperfective merges with the subjunctive? Does this rule still hold true then? Or is it *firvrrfen? I can't quite see the linguistic reasons behind that, really...[/quote]

Firvrrfen is fine.  The question has to do with phonotactics (what happens when certain sounds run into each other), the contraction of r + rr and l + ll.  Since that doesn't happen in the firvrrfen example, it's not an issue.



msg=155302 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 13:58:10 | u=1120

Re: misc. answers

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7187.msg155246#msg155246 date=1269348474]
Firvrrfen is fine.  The question has to do with phonotactics (what happens when certain sounds run into each other), the contraction of r + rr and l + ll.  Since that doesn't happen in the firvrrfen example, it's not an issue.
[/quote]

Yes, it's specifically *ferrrfen > frrfen because *rrr is not a legal syllable.



msg=155446 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 15:46:41 | u=1550

Re: misc. answers

Taras

[quote author=roger link=topic=7187.msg155302#msg155302 date=1269352690]
Yes, it's specifically *ferrrfen > frrfen because *rrr is not a legal syllable.
[/quote]

Pelun kea san ferfen sìk? Na plltxe + ol -> poltxe.

Why not "ferfen"? Like as plltxe + ol -> poltxe.



msg=155498 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 16:11:21 | u=401

Re: misc. answers

Harìghawnu

About ay/ey/aw/ew as diphthongs or VC, Frommer said, that
[quote]
I'm not sure there's much consequence to these distinctions--the pronunciations seem pretty much the same.[/quote]

Well ... it *does* matter in the case of arranging the words in a dictionary. Not, if you do it according to English rules, where e. g. "i" and "ì" or "a" and "ä" fall into the same category (which doesn't make sense from the Na'vi standpoint), but if you try to put the words in an alphabet, which takes respect to the Na'vi sound-system, "ay" as a diphthong is a separate sound, so that words starting with "ay" don't just get in the article about "a", but get their own article. The same about the other diphthongs and pseudovowels ("rr" isn't "r+r", and therefore to put between "rp" and "rs", it's a complete different sound, so it is placed *outside* (e. g. *after*) the other "r"s).

So, if you have an Na'vi alphabet like the one in our [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Vocabulary]wiki-vocabulary [/url], where e. g. the diphthong "ay" has it's own right apart from "a", uncertainties cause trouble. Example:

maw [maw] (Adp–) after (time).
mawey [ma.ˈwɛj] (Adj) calm.
mawkrr [maw.kr̩ː] (Adv) after (time), afterwards. 

"Mawey" is given as maWEY, so it's clear, that the -aw- here isn't the diphthong. So according to the Na'vi alphabet, "mawey" should be put BEFORE "maw", because there the "aw" is the diphthong and the alphabetical order is: a, aw, ay. So any words, where there *is* -aw-, but *not* the "diphthong-aw", should preceed all words with "diphthong-aw"s. (Until now I didn't put "mawey" in front of the others, but to maintain consistency, it should be done.)

So in the case of sorting words in the dictionary correctly, the difference between the diphthong and the VC very well *has* consequences.

Of course, maybe this isn't a problem to many people, but just to the ones, who write the dictionaries, but to them it is. And since all the other people want to use the dictionaries, it may become a problem to them too, because they had to look up "mawey" not after, but before "maw".



msg=155514 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 16:22:39 | u=1120

Re: misc. answers

roger

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7187.msg155446#msg155446 date=1269359201]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7187.msg155302#msg155302 date=1269352690]
Yes, it's specifically *ferrrfen > frrfen because *rrr is not a legal syllable.
[/quote]

Pelun kea san ferfen sìk? Na plltxe + ol -> poltxe.

Why not "ferfen"? Like as plltxe + ol -> poltxe.
[/quote]

Because infixes are never stressed, and stress does not shift when a verb is infixed.



msg=155545 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 16:41:50 | u=1550

Re: misc. answers

Taras

Set tslolam, irayo. Ngian oeru kelaw lu fya'o a oe tsun tslilvam futa lì'u lu san frrfen sìk (luke san er sìk) fu san ferrrfen sìk.

Now understood, thanks. However not clear to me the way to can understand that word is "frrfen" (without "er") or "ferrrfen".



msg=155586 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 17:11:42 | u=1120

Re: misc. answers

roger

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7187.msg155545#msg155545 date=1269362510]
Set tslolam, irayo. Ngian oeru kelaw lu fya'o a oe tsun tslilvam futa lì'u lu san frrfen sìk (luke san er sìk) fu san ferrrfen sìk.

Now understood, thanks. However not clear to me the way to can understand that word is "frrfen" (without "er") or "ferrrfen".
[/quote]

In English, the past tense of "read" is "read". Context will tell. (Of course, that isn't much consolation to the language learner, any more than being told you really don't need to write vowels in Arabic is much help.)



msg=155794 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:32:03 | u=1225

Re: misc. answers

neotrekkerz

Great to know about frrfen, that had been bugging me for a while.



msg=156307 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:01:01 | u=0

Re: misc. answers

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7187.msg155446#msg155446 date=1269359201]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7187.msg155302#msg155302 date=1269352690]
Yes, it's specifically *ferrrfen > frrfen because *rrr is not a legal syllable.
[/quote]

Pelun kea san ferfen sìk? Na plltxe + ol -> poltxe.

Why not "ferfen"? Like as plltxe + ol -> poltxe.
[/quote]

Nìeyawr nga poltxe!



msg=156360 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:19:24 | u=21

declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

wm.annis

A few refinements...

I asked, First, I say that "For declension, the diphthongs count as consonants. I'm 95% certain this is true (kifkeyit, etc.)

[quote="Karyu Pawl"]No, not quite. I hadn't written up the rule, but this is what I've been doing with diphthong-final N's, which feels right in my mouth and ear:

A: -ìl
P: -it, -ti
D: -ru, -ur
G: -ä
T: -ri

(I think I've been consistent, but if you come across places I haven't, please let me know.)

Sorry to give you a headache with this. One generalization is that the single-C allomorphs are out. Other than that, I guess it's some from Column A, some from Column B. Maybe you can find a way to convey this without having to take up space with another chart.

For the record, I went through the lexicon and found 19 diphthong-final N's:

-AW: fpxafaw, swizaw, taw, tìsraw
-AY: holpxay, nguway, reypay, tìngay, tsray, txampay, way, yemfpay
-EW: fahew, flew, txantstew
-EY: kifkey, kxeyey, tìrey, vey

(20 if we count tìletìngay. <g>)[/quote]

I asked, Second, I say that the near demonstrative is "fì-" (pl. "fay-", or just "fì-" with lenition); the distant demonstrative is "tsa-" (pl. tsay- or just "tsa-" with lenition).

I worry about the distal deixis prefix, because you have given ussa'u as a plural of tsa'u.


[quote]OK, except that for the plurals, there's no fì-/tsa- plus lenition option. That is,

fìketuwong 'this alien'
fayhetuwong 'these aliens'
tsaketuwong 'that alien'
tsayhetuwong 'those aliens'

But not *fìhetuwong, *tsahetuwong. (The nice thing about short plurals is that they save you a syllable; here that doesn't happen, so there's no raison d'être for the short forms with demonstratives.)

The plural of the stand-alone demonstrative pronoun tsa'u is (ay)sa'u, which follows the regular rules.

I don't see anything worrisome here, but if I'm missing something (which is entirely possible), let me know.[/quote]

When I asked for clarification about the pronouns,

[quote]Right. With the pronouns, the order of elements is ay+tsa+'u rather than the expected tsa+ay+'u, etc.[/quote]



msg=156546 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:17:01 | u=1120

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

roger

Great! That's half down. Now to figure out if the other PN's inflect like tsa'u or like the nouns.

And we do have a case of tsa+ lenition w/o the y.



msg=156550 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:19:05 | u=54

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

Tiger

I was actually talking to William about that case last night.  Since it doesn't have shorten the word any like normal short plurals, it may be one of those cases of "Technically it may be correct, but why would you ever actually USE it, so don't...  But I'll use it here for poetic license."



msg=156552 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:19:37 | u=21

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156546#msg156546 date=1269472621]And we do have a case of tsa+ lenition w/o the y. [/quote]

Which he chalked up to differences in verse vs. prose.  I didn't pursue that further.  Discussions of poetic language can wait until we get some more prose grammar filled out, I think.  :)



msg=156568 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:51:29 | u=1120

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

roger

and what's this noun vey that he mentions?



msg=156573 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:54:29 | u=21

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156568#msg156568 date=1269474689]and what's this noun vey that he mentions? [/quote]

No idea.  Hope it's a LEP word.



msg=156575 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:00:08 | u=0

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156568#msg156568 date=1269474689]
and what's this noun vey that he mentions?
[/quote]

Or flew?



msg=156576 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:01:09 | u=631

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

Plumps83

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7222.msg156360#msg156360 date=1269465564]
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]A: -ìl
P: -it, -ti
D: -ru, -ur
G: -ä
T: -ri

(I think I've been consistent, but if you come across places I haven't, please let me know.)

Sorry to give you a headache with this. One generalization is that the single-C allomorphs are out. [/quote][/quote]

[font=Garamond]Too late :P He's only talking about the diphthong cases here, right? Other than that the forms after vowel can remain -t and -r for patient and dative, kefyak?

[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156568#msg156568 date=1269474689]
and what's this noun vey that he mentions? [/quote]

[font=Garamond]There are a lot more words in there I have never seen before ...
reypay, tsray, txampay, flew, txantstew



msg=156578 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:04:07 | u=21

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7222.msg156576#msg156576 date=1269475269]Too late :P He's only talking about the diphthong cases here, right?[/quote]

Yes.  It's all laid out in a chart in my [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/dense-navi-grammar-summary-(pdf)/]cheat sheet[/url].



msg=156599 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:24:05 | u=3552

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

tigermind

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7222.msg156576#msg156576 date=1269475269]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156568#msg156568 date=1269474689]
and what's this noun vey that he mentions? [/quote]

[font=Garamond]There are a lot more words in there I have never seen before ...
reypay, tsray, txampay, flew, txantstew
[/quote]

reypay, "live-water"... medicine? (or, alternatively, alcohol?)



msg=156602 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:28:08 | u=1120

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

roger

the rest of those will be released over the next couple weeks.



msg=156610 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:34:30 | u=631

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I officially call for the word for "tease" ;D



msg=156612 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:39:07 | u=0

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7222.msg156610#msg156610 date=1269477270]
[font=Garamond]I officially call for the word for "tease" ;D
[/quote]

"ronger?" :P



msg=156617 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:48:10 | u=3552

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

tigermind

Tìletìngay = truthfulness?

...does the <g> mean he's being sarcastic?  Or is that seriously a word?



msg=156621 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:53:18 | u=54

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

Tiger

That would be the Na'vi translation of Stephen Colbert's "[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness]Truthiness[/url]".  It is, like the English word, a tongue in cheek word.



msg=156623 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:56:54 | u=631

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

Plumps83

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7222.msg156612#msg156612 date=1269477547]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7222.msg156610#msg156610 date=1269477270]
[font=Garamond]I officially call for the word for "tease" ;D
[/quote]

"ronger?" :P[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
txantsana tìpe'un - pesu mìsyunge tsat Karyu Pawlur? ;D
Excellent decision - who suggests that to Frommer?



msg=156624 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 01:04:53 | u=21

Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7222.msg156621#msg156621 date=1269478398]
That would be the Na'vi translation of Stephen Colbert's "[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness]Truthiness[/url]".  It is, like the English word, a tongue in cheek word.[/quote]

When Frommer told us we couldn't rely on freely using the derivational affixes, I emailed back "but I was so proud of tìletìngay!" and gave a hint at the intended sense.  Had I been paying better attention, I would have removed that from this post.  ;)



msg=156378 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:29:56 | u=132

About Subordination

Taronyu

So, I asked Frommer some questions. It's probably best to just paste both emails here:

[quote=Tarskxawngonyu]Relative clauses run by arranging their contents to the left or right of an a, sort of like adjectives. Now, with adjectives, I fpìl, but I'm not sure, that you can do this: txana txana trr lehrrap akawng "a very very dangerous bad day". Now, it makes sense to me that you should be able to do the same with relative clauses, but I can't seem to work out how that should work. From some examples, like when using a krr, you use a comma to end the subordinate clause - which I assume would mean an intonational pause. But does that mean that there isn't a lexical item to signal the end of a clause? I prepared the following sentence as an example of what I think we can do:

Utralmì a nantang ke namew fpilve' ikranur a mì saw 'upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsengit tamok fa nguway tìsusi.

What I had meant to say was: "The nantang, which is in the tree, did not want to send to the ikran in the sky messages which would show that he was there by howling." As you can see, it's a mess. Now, in English orthography, you need commas to properly show the embedded structures. What about in Na'vi? Does the above work? Thanks for helping to clear this up![/quote]

[quote=Frommer]Ma Taronyu,

Now THAT is a sentence! :-)

OK, let's see . . .

First of all, your premises are correct: RC's can precede or follow their heads just as adjectives can. (In fact, under some analyses, adjectives are simply reduced RC's: ikran atsawl < ikran a lu tsawl, just as an English phrase like "something strange" could be thought of as a reduced form of "something that is strange.")

You're also right that there's no lexical item to mark the end of a subordinate clause, although in speech, pauses and intonation would help. I haven't thought too much about whether written Na'vi should do something with punctuation, the way English does. But keep in mind that the situation with commas is complicated in English (and probably other languages, although I can't vouch for that) by the fact that there are restrictive/non-restrictive distinctions:

(1) The nantang that is in the tree is looking at you.
There are five nantangs around--I'm talking about the one in the tree. So this is a RESTRICTIVE RC.

(2) The nantang, which is in the tree, is looking at you.

There's only one nantang in the picture, and we've already identified it. "Which is in the tree" just gives additional, optional information. This is a NON-RESTRICTIVE RC.

Notice the differences in English: commas in one case but not the other, and, according to certain English teachers, the difference between "that" and "which." (That distinction is not always observed, even by good writers.)

Should Na'vi do something similar? I don't know. We'll see . . .

Now back to your phrase and sentence. You're basically correct on both. But looking at the details, I'd suggest the following revisions:

(3) txana txana trr lehrrap akawng

Keep in mind that "very" is nìtxan; "txan" means "much." So you can't use it this way. What you want is:

(4) kawnga trr lehrrap nìtxan nìtxan

(I'm not sure if Na'vi style allows the repeating of adjectives and adverbs for emphasis, as English does. I'll have to think about that.)

As for your monster:

(5) Utralmì a nantang ke namew fpilve' ikranur a mì saw 'upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsengit tamok fa nguway tìsusi.

I don't think it's that much of a mess--it's actually pretty good! Just a few suggestions:

(a) After "new," you usually use the simple subjunctive: fpive'
(b) If you want "messages," then it's upxaret, not 'upxaret
(c) "There" is tsatseng
(d) In this case I'd use terok rather than tamok: you're not talking about a point in time but rather about something that extended over a period. In fact, if you translated tok as "occupy," then you'd be likely to say "the place he was occupying," which makes the imperfective nature of the verb clear.
(e) To nominalize si-construction verbs where the non-verbal part is a noun, see if you can get away with just using the noun. In this case, I'd drop the last word.

With all the revisions:

(6) Utralmì a nantang ke namew fpive' ikranur a mì saw upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsatsengit terok fa nguway.

A complicated sentence, but definitely grammatical. (Just so I understand, though: The nantang got up into the tree by howling? How did that happen? And can nantangs climb trees anyway? <g>)[/quote]



msg=156535 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:03:41 | u=73

Re: About Subordination

Prrton

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7224.msg156378#msg156378 date=1269466196]

[quote=Frommer]

With all the revisions:

(6) Utralmì a nantang ke namew fpive' ikranur a mì saw upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsatsengit terok fa nguway.

A complicated sentence, but definitely grammatical. (Just so I understand, though: The nantang got up into the tree by howling? How did that happen? And can nantangs climb trees anyway? <g>)[/quote]
[/quote]

Does this fix the ambiguity about the role of the howling?

Utralmì a nantang ke namew fa nguway fpive' ikranur a mì saw upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsatsengit terok.

Seems to for me, or am I missing something?



msg=156540 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:07:25 | u=54

Re: About Subordination

Tiger

Oh that makes MUCH more sense!



msg=156563 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:44:39 | u=132

Re: About Subordination

Taronyu

That would work. I was trying to highlight that both constructions could be grammatical, currently, as we don't have a complex system for clause placement work out. Yours does make more sense, however, but it's not necessarily how the Na'vi would do it.


I think the main thing to take away is that we can stack clauses, and that there's no marker given for them if this is done. I've been curious about this, before.



msg=156570 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:52:20 | u=54

Re: About Subordination

Tiger

I actually came across an interesting situation relating to subordination.  I was writing a sentence out "Oel futa tì'awve nìftue lu fpìl" which as I understand should be perfectly fine...  Then I realized that I could have just dropped the oel because it was in the prior clause.  But then suddenly "Futa tì'awve nìftue lu fpìl" seemed ambiguous if it meant "tì'awve fpìl" or "oel fpìl".  I mean contextually here it's obvious, but if it were a different sentence, it might not have been so.  For example.

Oe ngaru polawm.  Futa ngal tì'eyngit omum fpìl.

Are you thinking it or am I thinking it?



msg=156581 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:06:39 | u=631

Re: About Subordination

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Maybe in a situation like this the topic marker comes to the rescue... Once attached to oe in the first sentence it remains the understood subject/topic of the follow-up sentence... just a wild guess ;)



msg=156584 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:09:01 | u=54

Re: About Subordination

Tiger

Right that's how it normally would be, but because the subordinate is wholly contained within the main clause before the verb, does IT then give the contextual subject, or does the prior sentence?



msg=156596 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:20:30 | u=631

Re: About Subordination

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Honestly ... I have no idea...
Seems like in these cases word order is not that free as we'd like to think ... Perhaps in these cases the verb of the main clause needs to be placed at the beginning as an introduction, even if it's just fpìl...



msg=156600 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:25:10 | u=54

Re: About Subordination

Tiger

Well the sentence works just fine if oel is in there, just without it I'm not sure which it would mean.



msg=156629 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 01:22:27 | u=1920

if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'

willphase

Triggered by discussion [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/beginners/if/]here[/url] about 'if'...

[quote=me]
My question is whether 'if' can be used as a replacement for 'whether', as in English.

Consider the sentence:

'Tell me if you want to live'

This could be interpreted as:

'Tell me whether you want to live (or not)'

or

'Tell me! ...and if you don't, you won't live'

So my question is - can txo be used in this same way, or is there another word for 'whether' in Na'vi that we just don't know yet?
[/quote]

[quote=frommer]
You ask a good question. "Whether" is an important word. And your analysis of "Tell me if you want to live"--that is, that it has two distinct meanings--is right on the money.

You're right--you can't use "txo" for all instances of English "whether."

Here are some examples:

(1) He asked whether Sally left.

That's an indirect question. The direct version, of course, is:

(2) He asked, "Did Sally leave?"

[BTW, as you probably know, some speakers of non-standard English use similar structures for direct and indirect questions. Those speakers would say, instead of (1),

(3) He asked did Sally leave.]

Anyway, in Na'vi we only use the direct form. So the sentence becomes:

(4) Polawm po san srake Säli holum sìk.

And no "whether" is required.

As for "Tell me whether you want to live (or not)," there's a different structure:

We use "ftxey . . . fuke," as in:

Piveng oer ftxey nga new rivey fuke. (Fuke is stressed on the 2nd syllable: fu.KE)

"Ftxey," which is also the verb "choose," is here a conjunction corresponding to "whether." And "fuke" clearly means "or not," which you can't omit in Na'vi.

"Ftxey . . . fuke" can also be used in direct questions. For "Are you coming?" we usually say:

(5) Srake nga za'u?

But there's another version, which corresponds more closely to "Are you coming or not?"

(6) Ftxey nga za'u fuke?

Hope that's all clear!
[/quote]

Deconstructed sentences because I find them useful...

Polawm po san srake Säli holum sìk
P<ol>awm po san srake Säli h<ol>um sìk
ask[PERF] 3 quote yes/no Sally leave[PERF] unquote
He asked "has Sally left?"

Piveng oer ftxey nga new rivey fuke
P<iv>eng oe-r ftxey nga new r<iv>ey fuke
Tell[SUBJ] 1-DAT choose 2 want live[SUBJ] or not
Tell me, you choose want to live or not.

Will



msg=156631 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 01:27:07 | u=21

Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'

wm.annis

Lot's of magnificent info here.



msg=156671 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 02:49:04 | u=1225

Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'

neotrekkerz

Wondering about "Are you coming or not?"  It can be answered with a yes/no, so shouldn't there be a srak there? 

Also, it could just be an error, but shouldn't we have <er> for both of those questions?



msg=156681 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 02:58:15 | u=1120

Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'

roger

"Srake" is contracted "yes-no?". "Fuke" is contracted "or-not?" So I could see them emerging in parallel.



msg=156917 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 10:33:44 | u=132

Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'

Taronyu

Really cool. What I wonder is how would you say:

Tell me whether you are going to stay or are going to the mall.

I assume just ftxey...fu. But I'm not sure.

Also, NeotrekkerZ, I'm not sure that it would take <er>. Note that English does, but it's actually future tense.



msg=157579 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:14:31 | u=1225

Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'

neotrekkerz

[quote]Tell me whether you are going to stay or are going to the mall.

I assume just ftxey...fu. But I'm not sure.[/quote]

I think you would have to use ftxey...fuke twice and translate it literally as "Tell me whether or not your going to stay and/or whether or not you're going to the mall.  But that is a little cumbersome. 

It is actually future tense.  My English blinded me there.  A better question would then be why no infixes there.



msg=157611 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:32:17 | u=1120

Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'

roger

I would assume that ftxey kä fuke is short for ftxey kä fu ke kä. If so, we'd expect a more general construction of ftxey ... fu ... as in ftxey kä fu za'u "are you coming or going?" and oe ke tslam futa ftxey kä fu za'u "I don't know if I'm coming or going".



msg=157232 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 16:14:11 | u=1751

new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

blueme

Kaltxì, ma frapo!

Great news! Here's some new vocab nìyey pa’liyä kxata (stress):

Na’vi           English
flewthroat
kxamouth
nikrehair
pewnneck
re’ohead
sre’tooth
tanbioluminescent freckle (also star)
tsuksìmchin
keyface



Awesome stuff! Yay! :D



msg=157309 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 16:52:53 | u=1120

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

roger

I wonder what nikre really means, since the Na'vi and other Pandoran mammals don't have hair? How do we distinguish 'a hair' from 'hair'? Or is the latter aynikre?



msg=157322 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 17:02:51 | u=132

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Taronyu

These are great! Thanks.

Was it Prrton who first suggested tanhì for freckle? Whoever did, pretty awesome.



msg=157329 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 17:06:56 | u=1120

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

roger

No, that was Mirri tsrräfkxätu.



msg=157452 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:03:41 | u=54

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Tiger

Added sample pronunciations to my list :D  (Not 100% happy with all of these pronunciations though)

Na’vi          English
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/flew.mp3]flew[/url]throat
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/kxa.mp3]kxa[/url]mouth
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/nikre.mp3]nikre[/url]hair
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/pewn.mp3]pewn[/url]neck
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/re%27o.mp3]re’o[/url]head
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/sre%27.mp3]sre’[/url]tooth
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/tanh%c3%ac.mp3]tan[/url]bioluminescent freckle (also star)
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/tsuks%c3%acm.mp3]tsuksìm[/url]chin
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/key.mp3]key[/url]face




msg=157461 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:07:20 | u=1751

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

blueme

[quote]Was it Prrton who first suggested tanhì for freckle? Whoever did, pretty awesome.

No, that was Mirri.
[/quote]
No, it was me! :D And now it's official! Unbelievable!

[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg157309#msg157309 date=1269535973]
I wonder what nikre really means, since the Na'vi and other Pandoran mammals don't have hair?
[/quote]
That's a good question. Pawl didn't say specifically, but seeing how all these body parts are connected to the head, I'd say that it's for the hair (or whatever it is) that grows on the Na’vi's scalp.



msg=157483 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:22:20 | u=1120

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

roger

Oops! I think I have a freckled brain.

Paul did not release nikre as a 'head' word, so that's only an assumption on our part. All he had was "hair N".



msg=157485 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:23:15 | u=631

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]First of all: Great!!!

Also, I think it was Na'rìghawnu who talked about "neck" in the LEP ... reminding us that it means the whole part of your body between head and 'shoulders' as well as the extention from your back upwards, while German (and I guess other languages as well...) distinguish between  rear part of the neck (dt. "Nacken") and the 'whole thing' (dt. "Hals")
Too bad there isn't a finer distinction... or maybe it is still to come :)

EDIT: just recognised ... Tirea Aean pointed out ngäng = stomach from the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/frommerian-words-from-nytimes-6442/msg155220/#msg155220]NYT article [/url] That should be added



msg=157497 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:30:23 | u=5561

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Mjllonir

May I ask for a source from where you got these? Just curious ;)



msg=157522 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:45:30 | u=132

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Taronyu

[quote author=Unilfwewyu link=topic=7265.msg157497#msg157497 date=1269541823]
May I ask for a source from where you got these? Just curious ;)
[/quote]

Frommer. :)



msg=157526 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:49:00 | u=5561

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Mjllonir

Oh cool! We can send him e-mails? So awesome XD!



msg=157589 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:18:48 | u=0

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Swoka Swizaw

Heh heh...flew. (There it is.)

Apparently, though, Frommer is saving hand for a really good time (considering that we have a word for "arm," "elbow," and "finger" already down). Eywa love 'im, though.



msg=157621 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:36:22 | u=1751

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

blueme

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7265.msg157485#msg157485 date=1269541395]
Also, I think it was Na'rìghawnu who talked about "neck" in the LEP ... reminding us that it means the whole part of your body between head and 'shoulders' as well as the extention from your back upwards, while German (and I guess other languages as well...) distinguish between  rear part of the neck (dt. "Nacken") and the 'whole thing' (dt. "Hals")[/quote]

English too differentiates between nape (back of the neck), throat (front part), and neck (the whole thing.) We just don't have a word for nape yet.



msg=157709 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 20:27:24 | u=631

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I stand corrected ;)
Thanks for telling me - good to know that there is still something to learn in English for me :D
So that would speak for a more general term (neck) with differenciations for nape and throat ...



msg=157915 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 23:32:35 | u=5436

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Feiane

I think "throat" refers to the INSIDE

as in "back of the throat"
as in the top of one's esophagus



msg=157945 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 00:14:32 | u=1120

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

roger

it's both



msg=157949 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 00:21:18 | u=1751

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

blueme

[quote author=Feiane link=topic=7265.msg157915#msg157915 date=1269559955]
I think "throat" refers to the INSIDE

as in "back of the throat"
as in the top of one's esophagus
[/quote]

So... when I cut yer throat, I need to reach in first? Yarrr! ;D



msg=157969 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 01:06:01 | u=1225

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

neotrekkerz

Not necessarily, consider the sentence "I grabbed him by the throat."  You're obviously not going inside there.



msg=157975 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 01:19:02 | u=1120

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

roger

(i think she was kidding)



msg=157995 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 01:51:51 | u=1751

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

blueme

She was indeed! She can't help it. She now apologizes. :D



msg=158029 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 02:47:35 | u=1225

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

neotrekkerz

LOL, I just looked at how the posts played out.  I was responding to Feiane's post, but it looks like I was debating with tsrräfkxätu.

Probably should read the new posts when I get the "someone else posted while you were writing" message before submitting my own. :)



msg=160551 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 17:50:27 | u=1318

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

HTML_Earth

I made a picture with all of the words on it, for simple learning! :D
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=item;id=409]http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=item;id=409[/url]



msg=160631 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:26:27 | u=631

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]That is SOOOO great! ;D

Be careful though: tsuksìm is chin, not cheek ... and I'm not sure whether it would be better for grammatical correctness to put the bodyparts which are in the dual/plural in their respective forms, i.e. memikyun, (ay)sanhì, menari - just a suggestion ;)



msg=160645 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:41:52 | u=1318

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

HTML_Earth

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7265.msg160631#msg160631 date=1269714387]
[font=Garamond]Be careful though: tsuksìm is chin, not cheek[/quote]

Thanks, fixed it.

Edit: and I won't pluralize them, because that would confuse people.



msg=160683 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 19:01:03 | u=631

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Plumps83

[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=7265.msg160645#msg160645 date=1269715312]
Edit: and I won't pluralize them, because that would confuse people.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
No problem ;) You're right - I thought of that as well ... Leave it at that, it's good! :)



msg=160695 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 19:09:29 | u=1120

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

roger

[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=7265.msg160645#msg160645 date=1269715312]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7265.msg160631#msg160631 date=1269714387]
[font=Garamond]Be careful though: tsuksìm is chin, not cheek[/quote]

Thanks, fixed it.

Edit: and I won't pluralize them, because that would confuse people.
[/quote]

If you're not going to pluralize, I would suggest pointing to only one of each. It would be equally confusing to point to a bunch of freckles and label them "a freckle".



msg=160827 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 20:57:13 | u=0

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Swoka Swizaw

Nice reference picture. This is one to add...



msg=161194 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 04:30:06 | u=2244

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

kayateia

I'm still waiting on a word for 'hand' so that I can say "talk to the hand!" :D for people who say the wrong thing about Avatar!

Edit: waitasec .. is "tsyokx" official or speculative, for hands?



msg=161202 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 05:05:40 | u=73

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Prrton

[quote author=Kaiatéya link=topic=7265.msg161194#msg161194 date=1269750606]
I'm still waiting on a word for 'hand' so that I can say "talk to the hand!" :D for people who say the wrong thing about Avatar!

Edit: waitasec .. is "tsyokx" official or speculative, for hands?

[/quote]

Official.

Technically "hands" would most commonly be for a human or Na'vi, «mesyokx», 2 hands.  ;)

  Tsyokxur peng?!  :-\\



msg=162043 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 18:11:10 | u=4375

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Binkatong

This just made my day. :D I was so disappointed that I couldn't find a word for tooth or mouth this morning, and now I have both. Yay!



msg=162088 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 18:24:16 | u=0

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162043#msg162043 date=1269799870]
This just made my day. :D I was so disappointed that I couldn't find a word for tooth or mouth this morning, and now I have both. Yay!
[/quote]

Isn't it amazing what we wake up thinking about? But I know what you mean. As you might have read above, I asked why Frommer hadn't appeared to create a word for "hand" the night before it was revealed.

Enjoy your new discovery.



msg=162115 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 18:35:14 | u=4375

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Binkatong

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7265.msg162088#msg162088 date=1269800656]
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162043#msg162043 date=1269799870]
This just made my day. :D I was so disappointed that I couldn't find a word for tooth or mouth this morning, and now I have both. Yay!
[/quote]

Isn't it amazing what we wake up thinking about? But I know what you mean. As you might have read above, I asked why Frommer hadn't appeared to create a word for "hand" the night before it was revealed.

Enjoy your new discovery.
[/quote]

I blame the Law of Attraction. Irayo, Universe! ;D And I just found the word for jump too! Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3



msg=162372 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 19:41:16 | u=0

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162115#msg162115 date=1269801314]
And I just found the word for jump too! Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3
[/quote]

Lrrtok seri. :D



msg=162670 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 21:45:53 | u=54

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Tiger

[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162115#msg162115 date=1269801314]
I blame the Law of Attraction. Irayo, Universe! ;D And I just found the word for jump too! Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3
[/quote]Worst was back when we got the word for "sleep", I had JUST told someone we don't have a word for sleep.

Spivä ftu 'awkx.



msg=162713 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:32:29 | u=2244

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

kayateia

This brings up a really good question: is there some central place that all of these words and grammar updates are getting filed into as they come in? One problem I had in the past is that the information is so fragmented everywhere that it's hard to tell what's right, what's canonical, where to see if a word exists,...



msg=162719 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:36:49 | u=1120

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

roger

I'm updating Wikibooks as they come in, and Taronyu's updating the his dict. here.



msg=162737 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:47:00 | u=631

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]The German subform also tries to keep the [url=http://dict-navi.com/]dict-navi[/url] as up to date as can be. It's still in its infancy but we do the best we can



msg=162912 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 00:36:27 | u=3552

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

tigermind

[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162115#msg162115 date=1269801314]
...Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3
[/quote]

While you wait, you could tell them to "go take a long walk off a short tree branch".  At least, i think we have the words for all of that...



msg=162922 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 00:50:35 | u=984

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

okrìsti

[quote author=Kaiatéya link=topic=7265.msg162713#msg162713 date=1269815549]
This brings up a really good question: is there some central place that all of these words and grammar updates are getting filed into as they come in? One problem I had in the past is that the information is so fragmented everywhere that it's hard to tell what's right, what's canonical, where to see if a word exists,...[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]Hi, I am trying to do exactly this on [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/User:Ochristi/Construction/Update_Log/2010-03]my wiki user sub-pages[/url].
This place is still in development, so there may be plenty of mainly earlier updates missing, also I am not finished with the format and appearance and since it is just compiled by myself, there may be some errors due to that.
As you can see it has a different approach then [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]the Canon[/url] on the wiki.



msg=162961 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 02:29:08 | u=1225

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

neotrekkerz

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7265.msg162912#msg162912 date=1269822987]
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162115#msg162115 date=1269801314]
...Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3
[/quote]

While you wait, you could tell them to "go take a long walk off a short tree branch".  At least, i think we have the words for all of that...
[/quote]

You could use ta until then.



msg=162964 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 02:44:45 | u=54

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Tiger

I think ftu would be more appropriate than ta, which is why I used it in my reply of "Spivä ftu 'awkx."



msg=162970 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 02:56:22 | u=2244

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

kayateia

[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg162719#msg162719 date=1269815809]
I'm updating Wikibooks as they come in, and Taronyu's updating the his dict. here.
[/quote]

Ah ha! I've been using Taronyu's dictionaries for the most part anyway (they seem to have the most words) so I will just start updating those regularly. I wasn't sure how often they're updated.

Irayo!



msg=163083 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 05:21:42 | u=1225

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

neotrekkerz

Ftu is a better choice.  I always seem to forget about it.



msg=163110 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 05:52:12 | u=54

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Tiger

I'd done the same time, I started to use ta, but then realized that wasn't right and went back with ftu.



msg=163290 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 07:43:13 | u=631

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Plumps83

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=7265.msg162922#msg162922 date=1269823835]
[font=Book Antiqua]Hi, I am trying to do exactly this on [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/User:Ochristi/Construction/Update_Log/2010-03]my wiki user sub-pages[/url].
This place is still in development, so there may be plenty of mainly earlier updates missing, also I am not finished with the format and appearance and since it is just compiled by myself, there may be some errors due to that.
As you can see it has a different approach then [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]the Canon[/url] on the wiki.
[/quote]

[font=Garamond]I think this is particularly useful for those who had to shortly stop with learning and come back to it at a later time. Instead of clicking through all the update pages at the forum (or going through the dictionaries to sought out all unknown vocab), this gives a nice, succinct overview over new vocabulary - and it's good for cross-referencing. It's useful for learners not only having to rely on only one source.
Good job with that, ma okrìsti



msg=163759 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:19:45 | u=132

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Taronyu

[quote author=Kaiatéya link=topic=7265.msg162970#msg162970 date=1269831382]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg162719#msg162719 date=1269815809]
I'm updating Wikibooks as they come in, and Taronyu's updating the his dict. here.
[/quote]

Ah ha! I've been using Taronyu's dictionaries for the most part anyway (they seem to have the most words) so I will just start updating those regularly. I wasn't sure how often they're updated.

Irayo!
[/quote]

They update all of the time. Check the official thread for details of updating, or the change log at the bottom of the link.



msg=163903 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:05:42 | u=0

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Swoka Swizaw

[url=http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae41/Incorruptus1123/NaviAnatomy.jpg]http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae41/Incorruptus1123/NaviAnatomy.jpg[/url]

Something I made...use it if you all would like. I know that "reypay" is blood, but to add it, I wrote it on/in the wrist. Clever, no?

No...?

OK.

EDIT: I created another one, with bigger words and utilized the dual affix on words that require it.



msg=164011 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:36:26 | u=132

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Taronyu

Looks good.

Reypey looks like wrist, though...



msg=164081 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:07:05 | u=0

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7265.msg164011#msg164011 date=1269876986]
Looks good.

Reypey looks like wrist, though...
[/quote]

You check the pulse (flow of blood) through the wrist, right? What more could I do for "blood?" Apparently, Neytiri is too flawless to have any open wounds.



msg=164099 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:16:29 | u=1120

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

roger

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7265.msg164081#msg164081 date=1269878825]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7265.msg164011#msg164011 date=1269876986]
Looks good.

Reypey looks like wrist, though...
[/quote]

You check the pulse (flow of blood) through the wrist, right? What more could I do for "blood?" Apparently, Neytiri is too flawless to have any open wounds.
[/quote]

When you make a cross section of her head to show her brain, you could have some blood then. Or maybe her heart?  ;D



msg=164130 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:33:03 | u=0

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg164099#msg164099 date=1269879389]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7265.msg164081#msg164081 date=1269878825]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7265.msg164011#msg164011 date=1269876986]
Looks good.

Reypey looks like wrist, though...
[/quote]

You check the pulse (flow of blood) through the wrist, right? What more could I do for "blood?" Apparently, Neytiri is too flawless to have any open wounds.
[/quote]

When you make a cross section of her head to show her brain, you could have some blood then. Or maybe her heart?  ;D
[/quote]

>.>; Oh, you're funny. Yes, there are some concepts for which one might need an ek srey. (Though, Eywa omum, not much.)



msg=164551 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 19:35:34 | u=73

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Prrton

[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=7265.msg160551#msg160551 date=1269712227]
I made a picture with all of the words on it, for simple learning! :D
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=item;id=409]http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=item;id=409[/url]
[/quote]

[quote=Paul Frommer via e-mail]...the re'o chart is wonderful--[desc=translation by Prrton -- it brought many smiles to my 2 lips. -- *it* and *my* are implied by the context.]aylrrtokit apxay ne meseyri zamolunge![/desc][/quote]

It seems important to call out the numbers of eyes, ears, lips, etc. when we talk about our body parts (or the Na'vi body parts) "generically" when first establishing the number (or if something else does not establish the number). Once established, then the singular forms can be used if that doesn't create some kind of ambiguity.

This chart is clearly a hit (at least with me and K. Pawl, but I know with others too), so in the future, you may want to help people learn their plurals better and become accustomed to THINKING this way at the same time by including the numbers of 'parts' when labeling them. You might want to do that in parentheses or using some other annotation. The most important thing is the base word/name for the body part, but referring to it *natively* is also a factor in fluency.

- menari
- meseyri
- memikyun
- sanhì (short (lenited) plural) of tanhì)...

In English we only call out the numbers (two lips) for special emphasis, but in Na'vi the numbers (up to a count of 3 of something) are built in to all plurals. And the number of eyes on a Na'vi is different than the number commonly found on the 'beasts'.

Make sense? It's just a suggestion to think about.  ;D

Irayo nìmun!



msg=165173 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 03:18:52 | u=3048

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

Txepasiyu

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7265.msg163759#msg163759 date=1269872385]
[quote author=Kaiatéya link=topic=7265.msg162970#msg162970 date=1269831382]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg162719#msg162719 date=1269815809]
I'm updating Wikibooks as they come in, and Taronyu's updating the his dict. here.
[/quote]

Ah ha! I've been using Taronyu's dictionaries for the most part anyway (they seem to have the most words) so I will just start updating those regularly. I wasn't sure how often they're updated.

Irayo!
[/quote]

They update all of the time. Check the official thread for details of updating, or the change log at the bottom of the link.

[/quote]

I am striving to keep the dictionary download links on the main LN site updated daily.



msg=166421 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 16:24:34 | u=2244

Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)

kayateia

Irayo aletxan, ma aynga! :D I got the new PDFs from the main site and I'll watch there for updates.



msg=158454 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 14:59:24 | u=2104

Body-related words

Mirri

So it's my turn to reveal new body-related words, and instead of just posting stuff, I wanted to do something special with the words given to me.
I've written [desc=Special thanks to roger for proofing!]three poems[/desc], which will be revealed over the next couple days, using the new words :)


First one is a short haiku:
[desc=Understand the spirits]Kame sireat[/desc]
[desc=that have gone before.]a srekrr kamä. Ta'leng [/desc]
[desc=Skin of the ancestors you are]fizayuyä nga[/desc]




Second is a poem:
[desc=people from the sky]Aysuteri ta taw[/desc]
[desc=they master metal]Fol ereyk fngapit[/desc]
[desc=but they fear the forest]Slä fo txopu si na'rìngur[/desc]
[desc=their hands tremble]Feyä mesyokx 'itrikx[/desc]
[desc=their spirits are lost]Fo täpatep nìtirea[/desc]
[desc=they bring fire]Ulte munge txepit[/desc]
[desc=to burn the skin of our trees.]Fte nivekx ayoengeyä ta'lengit ayutralä.[/desc]

[desc=One cannot understand]Fkori ke tsun tslivam[/desc]
[desc=the pain he causes]Tìsrawti a po sleyku[/desc]
[desc=if his roots do not grip the earth]Txo peyä ayngrr ke niä kifkeyit[/desc]
[desc=and his mind is in the sky]Ulte peyä ronsem lu kip taw[/desc]



Na’vi           English
ta'lengskin
tsyokxhand


More to come tomorrow!



msg=158468 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 15:15:30 | u=0

Re: Body-related words

Swoka Swizaw

I "complain" in the last body parts post (about the lack of the word "hand"), and someone delivers it the next day. Brilliant.

These words - and your poems - I like.

EDIT: I re-read your poems, and they are fantastic!!



msg=158480 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 15:29:39 | u=1975

Re: Body-related words

Ean Tirea

wow Mirri, your work is brilliant!! lor leiu nìtxan nang! txantsana tìkangkem. oel faylì'ut tsive'a a fì'u prrte' leiu oer.



msg=158568 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 16:28:18 | u=21

Re: Body-related words

wm.annis

Please include the accenting for ta'leng (or I could, but I don't like editing other people's posts).  Irayo!



msg=158604 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 16:55:23 | u=3552

Re: Body-related words

tigermind

Is this word 'itrikx also new, ma smuk?



msg=158609 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 16:59:08 | u=1975

Re: Body-related words

Ean Tirea

my guess is no. possibly derived from existing vocab in the following way:

[desc=small]'it[/desc]+[desc=move]rikx[/desc]=[desc=smallmove--tremble]'itrikx[/desc]




msg=158611 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 16:59:49 | u=2104

Re: Body-related words

Mirri

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7293.msg158568#msg158568 date=1269620898]
Please include the accenting for ta'leng (or I could, but I don't like editing other people's posts).  Irayo!
[/quote]

If you can, then please do so. There is no accenting on any of the words that I have received.

Fixed.



msg=158637 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 17:08:16 | u=2104

Re: Body-related words

Mirri

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=7293.msg158609#msg158609 date=1269622748]
my guess is no. possibly derived from existing vocab in the following way:

[desc=small]'it[/desc]+[desc=move]rikx[/desc]=[desc=smallmove--tremble]'itrikx[/desc]

[/quote]

Nga eyawr lu.

We also need a word for poetry. lì'utseo ?



msg=158670 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 17:25:37 | u=1975

Re: Body-related words

Ean Tirea

yes. I can definitely live with [desc=word-art-->poetry]lì'utseo[/desc]. makes sense to me. we have [desc=sound-art-->music]pamtseo[/desc], [desc=image/picture-art-->painting/art]reltseo[/desc], and the such.



msg=158878 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 18:18:31 | u=4708

Re: Body-related words

Mìhìl

Wow, I really like it!



msg=159053 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 19:42:47 | u=985

Re: Body-related words

Nyx

Great poems, Mirri, and that's a sweet idea! Looking forward to more of that ^^



msg=159653 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 23:54:48 | u=73

Re: Body-related words

Prrton

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7293.msg158454#msg158454 date=1269615564]
So it's my turn to reveal new body-related words, and instead of just posting stuff, I wanted to do something special with the words given to me.
I've written [desc=Special thanks to roger for proofing!]three poems[/desc]...

[/quote]

Tewti! ma Mirri

Faylì'utseo ngeyä nìngay lor lu nìtxan!

Memikyunmì srereiew!

Irayo!



msg=159729 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 04:24:05 | u=1225

Re: Body-related words

neotrekkerz

Just posting to keep current with the thread.  Love the poems too.



msg=160195 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 12:31:55 | u=2104

Body-related poetry, part 2

Mirri

Day Two of new [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/body-related-words/]body-related words.[/url]
As mentioned, I wanted to do something fun with the words given to me, so I wrote some [desc=poetry]lì'utseo.[/desc]

Enjoy! :)

[desc=There was once a Na`vi who prefered not to hunt]Krro lamu tuteo a nulnew ke tivaron[/desc]

[desc=The others said he was not brave]Aylapo perlltxe san po lu ke tstew sìk[/desc]

[desc=His aim was bad, his arrows did not strike]Peyä tìkan ke sìltsan lu, ke terakuk ayswizaw[/desc]

[desc=When he hunted, it was well-known he returned without a kill.]Krr a taron, lu nìawnomum tsnì tayätxaw luke tìtspang[/desc]



[desc=But when the fire burned at night and drums were heard]Slä tsakrr a txep nerekx nìtxon ulte fko ayauti tserawm[/desc]

[desc=His toes moved, he could not remain still]Peyä ayvenzek tolikx, po ke tsolun fnivu[/desc]

[desc=And everyone stopped laughing when he danced]Frapol fpolak tìheranghamit krr a po srerew[/desc]

[desc=His feet were flying to the music]Peyä ayvenu tswayon hu pamtseo[/desc]

[desc=The beat was in his heart]'Ekongìl fpxäkìm txe'lanit[/desc]

[desc=The music in his blood]Pamtseol tok reypayit[/desc]

[desc=His stomach was filled with laughter]Ngäng teya säpi fa tìhangham[/desc]

[desc=His lungs with beautiful song]Mesopì fa tìrol alor[/desc]

[desc=I could watch him dance forever and a day]Nìngay, oel nivìn pot tengkrr a srerew frakrr sì 'awa trr[/desc]



Na’vi           English
ngängstomach
reypayblood
tsolung
venufoot
venzektoe




msg=160218 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 12:58:49 | u=132

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

Taronyu

Interesting. Especially venzek, obviously from venu+zekwä, and reypay, life-water.



msg=160236 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 13:12:50 | u=631

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Great...
txantsan

And truly: beautiful poetry
ulte nìngay: lì'utseo alor!

Question is what do we make with "Whiskey" then? :P which comes from uisce beathe => "water of life" ;D



msg=160270 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 13:44:53 | u=132

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

Taronyu

I'm pretty sure that, in Scotland at least, if your blood doesn't have as high an alcohol content as whiskey, there's something seriously wrong.



msg=160277 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 13:50:23 | u=984

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]These are nice poems and nice words. :)
(The first line of transcription is somehow broken.)



msg=160288 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 13:59:08 | u=2104

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

Mirri

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=7334.msg160277#msg160277 date=1269697823]
[font=Book Antiqua]These are nice poems and nice words. :)
(The first line of transcription is somehow broken.)

[/quote]

Hmm, apparently it breaks if you have a ' in the desc part :P



msg=160338 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 15:00:09 | u=984

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

okrìsti

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7334.msg160288#msg160288 date=1269698348]Hmm, apparently it breaks if you have a ' in the desc part :P[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]Could use ’, like [desc=There was once a Na’vi who prefered not to hunt]Krro lamu tuteo a nulnew ke tivaron[/desc]
[desc=Na'vi]hm here it works[/desc]



msg=160467 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 17:07:03 | u=1620

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

dontbugme

ma Mirri, irayo
Nga nìlaw omum futa fko sar lì'ut a san tsopì sìk na lì'fyafa [desc=fu leìnglìsì fu alìnglìsi fu aìnglìsì]lìnglìsì[/desc]? [desc=German]Toitse[/desc]fa fko pivlltxe san Tsopì fa tìrol alor sìk tup san Mesopì. Ke fpìl oe futa tuteyä lena'vi txokxìri ke omum ayoeng nìtam fte tsun awnga law livu teri tìsar fìlì'uyä slä [desc=fya'o a tsawteri fpìl na'vi ]na'viyä tìkusameri[/desc] nì'ul tsunslu tìsar le[desc="singular"]holpxay a'aw[/desc]
Are you shure that you use the word "tsopì" like in english. In German you would say "Tsopì fa tìrol alor" instead of "Mesopì". I don't think that we know enough about the Na'vi body to be able to be shure about the usage of this word but from the point of view of the Na'vi it would be more likely to use it in singular.

tsalì'utseori ngeyä ke nì'aw lu lor [desc=ke omum oel futa tsun sivar san slä sìk fuke fu kea lì'u(t)]()[/desc] lu lesar nìtxan fpi tìnume
this poetry is not only beautiful but also usefull for learning



msg=160496 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 17:25:28 | u=2104

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

Mirri

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7334.msg160467#msg160467 date=1269709623]
ma Mirri, irayo
Nga nìlaw omum futa fko sar lì'ut a san tsopì sìk na lì'fyafa [desc=fu leìnglìsì fu alìnglìsi fu aìnglìsì]lìnglìsì[/desc]? [desc=German]Toitse[/desc]fa fko pivlltxe san Tsopì fa tìrol alor sìk tup san Mesopì. Ke fpìl oe futa tuteyä lena'vi txokxìri ke omum ayoeng nìtam fte tsun awnga law livu teri tìsar fìlì'uyä slä [desc=fya'o a tsawteri fpìl na'vi ]na'viyä tìkusameri[/desc] nì'ul tsunslu tìsar le[desc="singular"]holpxay a'aw[/desc]
Are you shure that you use the word "tsopì" like in english. In German you would say "Tsopì fa tìrol alor" instead of "Mesopì". I don't think that we know enough about the Na'vi body to be able to be shure about the usage of this word but from the point of view of the Na'vi it would be more likely to use it in singular.

tsalì'utseori ngeyä ke nì'aw lu lor [desc=ke omum oel futa tsun sivar san slä sìk fuke fu kea lì'u(t)]()[/desc] lu lesar nìtxan fpi tìnume
this poetry is not only beautiful but also usefull for learning
[/quote]

Talun tokxur lu mune san tsopì sìk tafral fìlì'u san dual-plural sìk. Mesopì.
Because the body has two "lung", the word is dual-plural. "Lungs"



msg=160582 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:03:15 | u=1225

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

neotrekkerz

Cool poem.  Na'vi Happy Feet!



msg=160624 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:22:09 | u=2104

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

Mirri

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7334.msg160582#msg160582 date=1269712995]
Cool poem.  Na'vi Happy Feet!
[/quote]

Mevenu lefpom :D



msg=160626 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:24:09 | u=21

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

wm.annis

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7334.msg160624#msg160624 date=1269714129]Mevenu lefpom[/quote]

Mevenu anitram, I think.  ;)



msg=160635 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:34:50 | u=2104

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

Mirri

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7334.msg160626#msg160626 date=1269714249]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7334.msg160624#msg160624 date=1269714129]Mevenu lefpom[/quote]

Mevenu anitram, I think.  ;)
[/quote]

That was my first thought, but feet aren't people.



msg=160678 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:58:50 | u=21

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

wm.annis

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7334.msg160635#msg160635 date=1269714890]That was my first thought, but feet aren't people.[/quote]

They aren't, but the phrase sure seems like a metonymy, or a personification, that would call for nitram.



msg=160690 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 19:06:45 | u=1120

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

roger

I imagine that things which actually are themselves happy, which laugh and dance, are nitram, and things which are enjoyable because they're peaceful are lefpom. Feet aren't either, so it's metaphor, and yeah, nitram would be the right word--for humans, that is. We can't know if either would make sense to the Na'vi. Probably not.



msg=161149 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 01:11:31 | u=73

Re: Body-related poetry, part 2

Prrton


Tsngolawvìk nì'it oe, ma Mirri.

Txantsan nìngay! Vay set fìlì'utseo ngeyä lu fwa oel nulnew frato.

Fkoru lora 'u feyä! Fìfyafa kifkey nì'ul yawne slu!

Irayo seiyi oe ngaru.



msg=161645 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 15:01:39 | u=2788

Landscape words

Lance R. Casey

Lu oeru kop mipa aylì'uo ulte oeri ye'rìn sngayä'i txana tìsop aweykta, set lonu sat oel. Ayngaru nìwotx pìyeng fìfya:


Tawtute tarmìng nari atxkxer. Pori ukxoa txayot tok slä sim hì'ia 'ora. Tsa'ora lu tsim payfyayä ulte mawkrr a yemfpay säpoli wewa paymì, ìlä fayfya salew po. Tsal oleyk pot ne Swotulu ulte tsatseng tsun po tsive'a txampayit alìm. Ìlä Swotulu salew vay ekxan a wìntxu pxawpat tsrayä leNa'vi. Tsrayä sute lu peyä eylan alunta, tolung fkol futa ftem po. Poru fol zamolunge fkxenot sì payoti ta ramunong tsrayä fte livu poru tìtxur nìmun. Tawtute lu nitram ulte mì ronsem peyä lu fìsäfpìl: san Eywa'eveng lu nìngay lefpoma kifkey alor nìtxan!

[spoiler]A human was looking over the land. He was on a dry field but a small lake was close by. That lake was the source of a stream and after immersing himself in the cold water, he proceeded along the stream. It led him to the Sacred River and there he could see the ocean in the distance. He proceeded along the Sacred River up to a barricade which showed the border of a Na'vi village. Since the people of the village were his friends, he was allowed to pass. They brought him some fruit and water from the village's well so that he would regain his strength. The human was happy and in his mind was this thought: Pandora is truly a very peaceful and beautiful world![/spoiler]


So, first there are a couple of previously known words which are now explicitly confirmed:

ramunong well (as in Ayvitrayä Ramunong Well of Souls)
Swotulu Sacred River (given as just n., but is obviously a name)

Then there are some derived words the constituents of which are apparent:

payfya stream (pay-fya'o)
pxawpa perimeter, circumference, border (pxaw-pa'o)
txampay sea, ocean (txan-pay)

The rest are, I believe, new roots:

'ora lake
ekxan barricade, obstruction
tsim source
tsray village
txayo field, open terrain (note syllabication)
ukxo dry
wew cold

(All but the last two are nouns.)



msg=161755 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 16:22:09 | u=984

Re: Landscape words

okrìsti

Awesome, thanks for sharing. :)



msg=161801 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 16:52:03 | u=631

Re: Landscape words

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]A huge WHOOOOT ;D

Finally a word for "cold" :)
And there I was thinking this morning about txampay possibly being "ocean" or "sea" which was given in the diphthong thread. Very nice.

Irayo



msg=161805 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 16:55:58 | u=73

Re: Landscape words

Prrton

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7386.msg161645#msg161645 date=1269788499]
Lu oeru kop mipa aylì'uo ulte oeri ye'rìn sngayä'i txana tìsop aweykta, set lonu sat oel...
[/quote]

Txantsan, ma LänsArKeysi!

[desc=However, perhaps a few folks still have a question regarding the source of these beautiful words.]Ngian kxawm mi hola suteru latsu tìpawm teri tsim faylì'uyä alor[/desc]... [desc=Who is the true creator?]Pesu lu ngopyu angay?[/desc] [desc=What is the original source?]Peu lu tsatsim a'awve?[/desc]  ;D



msg=162203 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 19:00:58 | u=0

Re: Landscape words

Swoka Swizaw

Great words. Frommer's genius is wonderful to encounter.

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7386.msg161805#msg161805 date=1269795358]
[desc=However, perhaps a few folks still have a question regarding the source of these beautiful words.]Ngian kxawm mi hola suteru latsu tìpawm teri tsim faylì'uyä alor[/desc]... [desc=Who is the true creator?]Pesu lu ngopyu angay?[/desc] [desc=What is the original source?]Peu lu tsatsim a'awve?[/desc]  ;D
[/quote]

I have a feeling that if someone made ANYthing up, here...for that person, it would be like a fate worse than if they had just lost their queue.



msg=162660 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 21:38:40 | u=1120

Re: Landscape words

roger

Oe 'efu wew "I'm cold"

For "the wind is cold", I wonder if it would be hufwe oeru 'eykefu wew ?



msg=162686 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:03:58 | u=1550

Re: Landscape words

Taras

[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg162660#msg162660 date=1269812320]
Oe 'efu wew "I'm cold"

For "the wind is cold", I wonder if it would be hufwe oeru 'eykefu wew ?
[/quote]

Oel fpìl futa nìeyawr lu san hufwe lu wew sìk, talun Lance R. Casey poltxe san All but the last two are nouns sìk ;)

I think that correct is "hufwe lu wew", because Lance R. Casey said "All but the last two are nouns" ;)



msg=162699 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:19:44 | u=1120

Re: Landscape words

roger

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7386.msg162686#msg162686 date=1269813838]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg162660#msg162660 date=1269812320]
Oe 'efu wew "I'm cold"

For "the wind is cold", I wonder if it would be hufwe oeru 'eykefu wew ?
[/quote]

Oel fpìl futa nìeyawr lu san hufwe lu wew sìk, talun Lance R. Casey poltxe san All but the last two are nouns sìk ;)

I think that correct is "hufwe lu wew", because Lance R. Casey said "All but the last two are nouns" ;)
[/quote]

Yes, it's an adjective. But that doesn't tell us how to differentiate feeling from temperature.

BTW, WB dict. updated.



msg=162715 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:33:47 | u=1550

Re: Landscape words

Taras

Oe 'efu tìwew - kxawm fìfya :) Fu nìeyawr livu san Oel 'efu tìwewit sìk srak?

Oe 'efu tìwew - maybe this way :) Or correct is Oel 'efu tìwewit?



msg=162725 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:39:15 | u=1120

Re: Landscape words

roger

Frommer's said that with "I'm happy", "I'm cold", etc., it's oe 'efu ADJ. The question for me is, how do you say "the wind's cold"? Perhaps just "hufwe lu wew", but the coldness of the wind isn't so much the wind itself (the way ice is cold), but in how it makes one feel cold.



msg=162730 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:43:48 | u=631

Re: Landscape words

Plumps83

[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg162699#msg162699 date=1269814784]
Yes, it's an adjective. But that doesn't tell us how to differentiate feeling from temperature.

BTW, WB dict. updated.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]That's an interesting concept, roger, but I doubt the Na'vi would make such a distinction... It's all about subjective utterances, isn't it. Even when we say "the wind is cold" we say that from our personal interpretation of what is warm and cold... But we can make that distinction. "for me the wind is cold", "the wind seems cold", "the wind makes me cold" - so, I guess it's all semantics and gives another nuance to the language if we can say hufwe lu wew or oeru hufwe lu wew or oeru hufwe 'eykefu wew

Concerning the last one - what would happen with oeru hufwe 'eykefu nìwew - would that be cold in the emotional sence?



msg=162770 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 23:16:29 | u=1120

Re: Landscape words

roger

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7386.msg162730#msg162730 date=1269816228]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg162699#msg162699 date=1269814784]
Yes, it's an adjective. But that doesn't tell us how to differentiate feeling from temperature.

BTW, WB dict. updated.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]That's an interesting concept, roger, but I doubt the Na'vi would make such a distinction... It's all about subjective utterances, isn't it. Even when we say "the wind is cold" we say that from our personal interpretation of what is warm and cold... But we can make that distinction. "for me the wind is cold", "the wind seems cold", "the wind makes me cold" - so, I guess it's all semantics and gives another nuance to the language if we can say hufwe lu wew or oeru hufwe lu wew or oeru hufwe 'eykefu wew

Concerning the last one - what would happen with oeru hufwe 'eykefu nìwew - would that be cold in the emotional sence?

[/quote]

A lot of languages make this distinction. Some have different words for hot in "it's hot out today" and "the soup is hot".  English is rather odd in not doing this. Frommer's said that for internal states, you use "feel" w an adj. That isn't going to work with saying "the soup is hot", so presumably there's a different construction for that. (Presumably not different adjectives, or F would've made some indication in his gloss.) As for "the wind made me feel coldly", yeah, as an English speaker I'd understand that to mean emotionally, but we don't know if Na'vi has that metaphor.



msg=162815 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 23:35:19 | u=1673

Re: Landscape words

Toruk Taronyu

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7386.msg162730#msg162730 date=1269816228]

Concerning the last one - what would happen with oeru hufwe 'eykefu nìwew - would that be cold in the emotional sence?
[/quote]

I have to agree w/roger.  Cold in the emotional sense is most likely something that the Na'vi would never have come up with outside of interaction with humans.  For example, if people lived on a very hot world, where cold was extremely desirable, "cold" emotionally might mean happy and outgoing!



msg=162831 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 23:46:55 | u=1120

Re: Landscape words

roger

[quote author=Toruk Taronyu link=topic=7386.msg162815#msg162815 date=1269819319]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7386.msg162730#msg162730 date=1269816228]

Concerning the last one - what would happen with oeru hufwe 'eykefu nìwew - would that be cold in the emotional sence?
[/quote]

I have to agree w/roger.  Cold in the emotional sense is most likely something that the Na'vi would never have come up with outside of interaction with humans.  For example, if people lived on a very hot world, where cold was extremely desirable, "cold" emotionally might mean happy and outgoing!
[/quote]

Or who knows, there could be a distinction between cold=refreshing and cold=shivering. But that could be conveyed by 'eykefeiu, 'eykefägu.



msg=162938 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 01:31:33 | u=1643

Re: Landscape words

Rain

Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?



msg=163150 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 06:16:31 | u=1120

Re: Landscape words

roger

[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg162938#msg162938 date=1269826293]
Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?
[/quote]

Of course they will, and probably quite soon. But since it's not a wiki, there's a little turnaround time.



msg=163319 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 08:28:38 | u=54

Re: Landscape words

Tiger

I've actually been trying to keep on top of adding things to my google docs spreadsheet as new words come out, but that's not so much with a goal of being a dictionary, but more a goal of being a reference to pronunciation.



msg=163624 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 12:51:45 | u=1643

Re: Landscape words

Rain

[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg163150#msg163150 date=1269843391]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg162938#msg162938 date=1269826293]
Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?
[/quote]

Of course they will, and probably quite soon. But since it's not a wiki, there's a little turnaround time.
[/quote]

Fi'u lu siltsana fmawn ;D



msg=163770 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:24:13 | u=132

Re: Landscape words

Taronyu

[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg163624#msg163624 date=1269867105]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg163150#msg163150 date=1269843391]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg162938#msg162938 date=1269826293]
Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?
[/quote]

Of course they will, and probably quite soon. But since it's not a wiki, there's a little turnaround time.
[/quote]

Fi'u lu siltsana fmawn ;D
[/quote]

Irayo, ma eylan. I updated them a while ago. I'll start posting in these threads when I do, but one can always check the changelog, PM me, or check the dictionary thread. Thanks.



msg=163856 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:51:54 | u=1643

Re: Landscape words

Rain

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7386.msg163770#msg163770 date=1269872653]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg163624#msg163624 date=1269867105]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg163150#msg163150 date=1269843391]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg162938#msg162938 date=1269826293]
Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?
[/quote]

Of course they will, and probably quite soon. But since it's not a wiki, there's a little turnaround time.
[/quote]

Fi'u lu siltsana fmawn ;D
[/quote]

Irayo, ma eylan. I updated them a while ago. I'll start posting in these threads when I do, but one can always check the changelog, PM me, or check the dictionary thread. Thanks.
[/quote]

I check it faithfully every week ;D



msg=163181 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 06:39:37 | u=1120

<asy> with ke and nga

roger

On one of the posts, s.o. asked what it would mean to use the intentional future with "you": you intend to go, or I intend you to go? Turns out it's the latter. And they also asked about the scope of the negative.

[quote author=Frommer]With the negative added, it's a matter of scope: Is it (a) INTEND [NEG V] or (b) NEG [INTEND V]?

So far I've used the det. fut. only as (a). Examples from the video-game dialog:

Tafral ke lìsyek oel geyä keye'ugit.
'Therefore I will not heed your insanity.'

Ayoe ke wasyem.
'We will not fight.'

Ke zasyup lì'Ona ne kxutu a mìfa fu a wrrpa.
'The l'Ona will not perish to the enemy within or the enemy without.'
[/quote]
[not decided whether (b) should be allowed]
[quote]
As for the second person examples, the det. fut. without anything else should indicate the intention of the speaker (since you can't get inside someone's head to assess their determination): Ga kasyä shd. be: I am determined that you will go. (Alternatively, it could be the case that the determinative is only used with the 1st person--but that would eliminate some useful sentences.)*

I like your idea of using the evidential with the determinative for the other reading. In the same way, when we use experiential expressions with other than the 1st person, we're implying a "seems" or "appears," right? So "I'm tired" is straightforward, but "You're tired" is odd unless it means "I perceive you as tired (although I can't be sure if that's true)" or "You seem/appear to be tired."
[/quote]

In other words, "You shall not pass!" (the question in the post) would be s.t. like ga ke ftasyem!

And if I'm reading this right, it would be ungrammatical (or at least intellectually dishonest) to say ga 'efu geyn for "you are tired"; one should say instead ga 'efacu geyn. Similarly, if he decides to go with this, the way to say "you're determined to go" would be ga kasyacä. (I would assume you could leave out the evidential in either if you're in caheylu!)

Capitalization suggests a new prefix in "lì'Ona", though that might simply be a unitary name.

*Is the "lì'Ona" example then actually in 1st person, with the speaker speaking for all, rather than expressing intention for a 3rd party?



msg=163301 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 08:00:34 | u=631

Re: <asy> with ke and nga

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing!

Although I'm all for the little nuances in a language ... right now I can only concentrate on two words that appear to be new...
ngeyn adj. = tired
kxutu n. = enemy

eyawr lu mefo srak?

Honestly, but maybe that's due to my non-native English background, I can't quite see the difference between the given examples.
Is it suggested then, that the lì'Ona example should add an additional ‹ats› in zup to indicate that the speaker is really just conjecturing?



msg=163308 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 08:12:18 | u=1120

Re: <asy> with ke and nga

roger

Oops, yeah, I shouldn't have used ngeyn; I was just translating F's examples.

I would imagine that if you were to use <ats> in zup, you'd be saying that it appears that you intend, rather than just that you intend. Normally we're aware of our own intentions.

The idea is that I can say that I am tired, because I know how I feel. I can ask you if you are tired, because you know how you feel. But it makes no more sense for me to tell you that you are tired, than it does to ask you if I am tired. We have this in English: "You look tired. Why don't you lie down?" It would be rather odd to tell s.o. "You're tired. Go lie down." The "look" would be translated with <ats>. The question then would be if its grammatically or culturally acceptable to say "S/he's tired", or if we're required to say "S/he looks tired" with the <ats>. (Unless maybe it's our horse we're talking about, and we're in tsaheylu, so we know first-hand that s/he's tired.)



msg=163314 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 08:24:32 | u=631

Re: <asy> with ke and nga

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]You can still change it ;) Nobody else noticed :)

Alright, I get the ‹ats› and of course, it's logical.

Hmm, I don't understand what the
[quote][not decided whether the 2nd reading should be allowed][/quote]
[font=Garamond]means or what you are referring to...
Sorry, for being a skxawng with that ... maybe it's too early :P but of course, I want to comprehend these aspects of the language



msg=163756 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:18:43 | u=1921

Re: <asy> with ke and nga

pbhead

Is he dropping the n in "ng"? I guess thats ok, since the only time g appears is ng...

just kinda intresting.



msg=163767 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:21:44 | u=132

Re: <asy> with ke and nga

Taronyu

Updated lì'Ona, but didn't add the two words, because of your hesitance.

Thanks roj.



msg=163768 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:23:36 | u=1120

Re: <asy> with ke and nga

roger

[quote author=pbhead link=topic=7431.msg163756#msg163756 date=1269872323]
Is he dropping the n in "ng"? I guess thats ok, since the only time g appears is ng...

just kinda intresting.
[/quote]

He's always prefered to use 'g' for 'ng' and 'c' for 'ts' (one letter per sound apart from 'x'), but used the latter for the film script to make it more accessible to the actors. Some of us write to him in this system, and he responds in kind.



msg=163922 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:10:10 | u=430

Re: <asy> with ke and nga

TehMightyPirate

Awesome, glad to have that answered.



msg=163831 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:43:36 | u=401

Some new words

Harìghawnu


I'm quite busy at the moment, so I can't write a lot here, but I want to let you know some new words coming from K. Pawl.

We saw fìtxon already in his translation of [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/why-is-this-night/]Why is this night ... [/url]. Well there are also some related words:

txon(Adv)tonight
txonam(Adv)last night
txonay(Adv)tomorrow night
trray(Adv)tomorrow
sekrr(N)present



Furthermore I'm happy to tell you about same words, which are for sure essential in the narrative culture of the Na'vi:

vur(N)story
tìpängkxo(N)conversation, discussion
srese'a(N)prophecy
nawmtu(N)great person
txantstew(N)hero
tstew(Adj)brave
fkew(Adj)mighty



And last a special:

nguway(N)howl, viperwolf cry





msg=163847 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:48:23 | u=1975

Re: Some new words

Ean Tirea

Txantsana fmawn ma 'eylan oeyä! ngaru seiyi irayo.



msg=163885 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:00:44 | u=1620

Re: Some new words

dontbugme

interesting, that <txantstew\



msg=163920 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:10:03 | u=1975

Re: Some new words

Ean Tirea

yes, this is interesting, as i would have also expected hero to be something like txantstewtu. as for short of nìtxan tsewa tute. but either way, we should accept this word "txantstew" as it is and how it has been given to us by Paul to function. :)



msg=163925 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:10:58 | u=1550

Re: Some new words

Taras

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
txonam (Adv) last night
txonay (Adv) tomorrow night
[/quote]

Srake tsun fko tengfya pivlltxe san

zìsìtam - last year
zìsìtay - next year

sìk?



msg=163947 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:16:23 | u=1975

Re: Some new words

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7447.msg163925#msg163925 date=1269875458]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
txonam (Adv) last night
txonay (Adv) tomorrow night
[/quote]

Srake tsun fko tengfya pivlltxe san

zìsìtam - last year
zìsìtay - next year

sìk?
[/quote]

tsun fko tsaylì'u sivar a fì'u lam oeru.



msg=163956 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:17:41 | u=2

Re: Some new words

snowyfox

I thought mighty was fkeu.  When did this change?  I think I need to pay more attention around here, hard to keep up...



msg=163960 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:18:27 | u=0

Re: Some new words

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7447.msg163925#msg163925 date=1269875458]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
txonam (Adv) last night
txonay (Adv) tomorrow night
[/quote]

Srake tsun fko tengfya pivlltxe san

zìsìtam - last year
zìsìtay - next year

sìk?
[/quote]

Pelun ke...? :D



msg=163969 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:20:29 | u=430

Re: Some new words

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Seze link=topic=7447.msg163956#msg163956 date=1269875861]
I thought mighty was fkeu.  When did this change?  I think I need to pay more attention around here, hard to keep up...
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that changed a while back, around the time neu turned into new.



msg=164002 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:30:34 | u=1120

Re: Some new words

roger

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7447.msg163969#msg163969 date=1269876029]
[quote author=Seze link=topic=7447.msg163956#msg163956 date=1269875861]
I thought mighty was fkeu.  When did this change?  I think I need to pay more attention around here, hard to keep up...
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that changed a while back, around the time neu turned into new.
[/quote]

SG material from an early draft of Frommer's.



msg=164004 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:31:27 | u=1120

Re: Some new words

roger

Note the shift in stress between srese'a and srese'a.



msg=164046 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:51:21 | u=1975

Re: Some new words

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Seze link=topic=7447.msg163956#msg163956 date=1269875861]
I thought mighty was fkeu.  When did this change?  I think I need to pay more attention around here, hard to keep up...
[/quote]

yeah im pretty sure that all words ending in eu have been changed to end in ew. possibly even that eu has completely changed to ew.

[quote author=roger link=topic=7447.msg164004#msg164004 date=1269876687]
Note the shift in stress between srese'a and srese'a.
[/quote]

that IS interesting, but somehow still makes sense to me. nice catch by the way.



msg=164164 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:44:29 | u=631

Re: Some new words

Plumps83

[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
sekrr (N) present[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
Nice, thanks for sharing!

sekrr from set + krr ?

Interesting side note ... if nguway is a wiperwolf's cry and way is song/animal sound, what makes that of pongu? ;D



msg=164170 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:47:35 | u=1120

Re: Some new words

roger

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7447.msg164164#msg164164 date=1269881069]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
sekrr(N)present[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
Nice, thanks for sharing!

sekrr from set + krr ?

Interesting side note ... if nguway is a wiperwolf's cry and way is song/animal sound, what makes that of pongu? ;D

[/quote]

Po s/he + ngu pack of wolves = people acting like wolves.



msg=165162 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 02:50:23 | u=3552

Re: Some new words

tigermind

Txantsan!  Irayo, ma Na'rìghawnu.



msg=165816 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 12:15:00 | u=631

Re: Some new words

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Another interesting shift in stress

From the already existing examples trray and trram I'd expect the stress in txonam and txonay to be on only -am and -ay (if at all ...) but here txon is split appart and becomes part of the 'time suffixes' for past and future -nam and -nay ... very interesting
Or is there a mistake in transcription?



msg=165912 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 12:52:12 | u=21

Re: Some new words

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7447.msg165816#msg165816 date=1269951300]From the already existing examples trray and trram I'd expect the stress in txonam and txonay to be on only -am and -ay (if at all ...) [/quote]

It is completely normal for inflectional endings or word compounding to alter the syllabification of a word.  Frommer has said that, "in general, the tendency with VCV is to syllabify as V.CV rather than VC.V" ([url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#Misc_Answers]Canon[/url]), so txonam is expected.



msg=166416 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 16:19:44 | u=631

Re: Some new words

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]As I said so often: you learn something new with Na'vi every day :)
pìmlltxe oe pxìm fìtxan san lì'fyari leNa'vi fkol 'ut amip nume fratrr sìk :)

Thanks for clarifying and explaining ;)
oeyktìngìri sì tìlawri oe ngaru seiyi irayo ;)


EDIT: oe lamu skxawng ;)



msg=167645 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 10:41:06 | u=132

Re: Some new words

Taronyu

I really like the derivation of pongu...



msg=168071 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 15:11:02 | u=1975

Re: Some new words

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7447.msg166416#msg166416 date=1269965984]
[font=Garamond]As I said so often: you learn something new with Na'vi every day :)
pìmlltxe oe pxìm fìtxan san lì'fyari leNa'vi fkol 'ut amip nume fratrr sìk :)

Thanks for clarifying and explaining ;)
oeykìri sì tìlawri oe ngaru seiyi irayo ;)

[/quote]

[font=Garamond]As said so often by me: as for the Na'vi language, one learns about something new every day. :)
Aìpawnlltxe fìtxan pxìm oefa: san lì'fyari leNa'vi fko nume teri 'uo amip fratrr. sìk :)

Thanks for the explanation ;)
Tìoeyktìngìri oe ngaru seiyi irayo. :)



msg=168102 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 15:32:49 | u=132

Re: Some new words

Taronyu

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=7447.msg168071#msg168071 date=1270048262]
Aìpawnlltxe fìtxan pxìm oefa: san lì'fyari leNa'vi fko nume teri 'uo amip fratrr. sìk :)

Thanks for the explanation ;)
Tìoeyktìngìri oe ngaru seiyi irayo. :)
[/quote]

What is going on with Aìpawnlltxe? I see <awn>, but Aì? Also, Shouldn't that be tìoeyktìngìri oel ngaru seiyi ayirayot.?



msg=168810 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 21:29:46 | u=631

Re: Some new words

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]What he meant was nìpawnlltxe (as said) - like nìawnomum (as known)

Ma Taronyu ... *head shaking* ;)

irayo si counts as an intransitive construction ;) therefore: "I thank you" oe ngaru irayo si

And I took the construction with the topic from one of Karyu Pawl's Canon sentences (19 Jan)
Sìpawmìri oe ngaru seiyi irayo.
Concerning the questions, I thank you very much.



msg=168831 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 21:38:07 | u=132

Re: Some new words

Taronyu

Irayo. Oeyä kawng.



msg=168865 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 21:55:58 | u=631

Re: Some new words

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]lu nawma meuia frakrr fwa oe tsun srung sivi lemeuia tutanru a awngar aylì'ut zamunguye 'awsiteng ;)
[spoiler][font=Garamond]It's always a great honour to help the honourable person who compiles the words for us[/spoiler]



msg=169178 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-04-01 00:50:33 | u=1975

Re: Some new words

Ean Tirea

Srane, oeyä kawnga kxeyey apxa lamängu. tsap'alute si oe ayngaru. It was supposed to be Nìpawnlltxe...I cant believe I missed that. what a fail. yes, the idea for that came from nìawnomum.



msg=169207 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-01 01:46:20 | u=21

"color"

wm.annis

While Karyu Pawl has gone back to the drawing board to think about Na'vi colors, we do have a word for color:

'opin n. "color"

So at least we can say things have the color of something else, 'opin a na ...



msg=169224 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-01 02:19:29 | u=0

Re: "color"

Swoka Swizaw

Oeti 'opin si surprised! And when I thought that we'd get COLORS this week... ::slight sigh::

This is cool, of course...



msg=169239 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-01 02:45:22 | u=984

Re: "color"

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]I am wondering, if (how) you could (would) assign a color of something in a descriptive construction, something with lam?
Maybe I am just thinking to odd.

fäkeykä ayopin - hoist the colors (could not resist)



msg=169296 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-01 05:15:10 | u=4754

Re: "color"

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7621.msg169207#msg169207 date=1270086380]
While Karyu Pawl has gone back to the drawing board to think about Na'vi colors, we do have a word for color:

'opin n. "color"

So at least we can say things have the color of something else, 'opin a na ...
[/quote]

Ahhh, very good. At least, a way to describe color in reference to something else.

BTW, I did see 'Avatar' again a couple weeks back. Paid a lot of attention to colors. An amazing amount of cyan-- Ikrans, bioluminescence, etc. Perhaps, this is where the idea for ean meaning 'blue or green' came from-- cyan is an additive mix of blue and green. (Third bar from left in TV color bars.) There was a fair amount of magenta, the other 'odd' additive color (fifth bar from left in TV color bars), especially in bioluminescence. Not as much green as I would have thought-- scenes that should have had a lot of green were often dark scenes, deep in the forest (Green showed up OK in well-lit scenes). Purples were seen in bioluminescence, often along with magenta and some reds. Of course, you had the deep blue of Na`vi skin. Didn't notice a lot of yellows. There was the striking reds and oranges of Toruk. And a little blood (which was minimized for ratings reasons) Otherwise, these color were uncommon in the Na`vi world.

As far as Na`vi color perception range goes, there were indeed some 'first person' scenes of Jake looking out through his avatar. The color range in those views was the same color range that we would see. That implies that the Na`vi see color the same way we do, even if they can't explain what (for instance) 'red' is without a reference.



msg=172735 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 14:19:33 | u=2104

Re: "color"

Mirri

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7621.msg169296#msg169296 date=1270098910]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7621.msg169207#msg169207 date=1270086380]
While Karyu Pawl has gone back to the drawing board to think about Na'vi colors, we do have a word for color:

'opin n. "color"

So at least we can say things have the color of something else, 'opin a na ...
[/quote]

Ahhh, very good. At least, a way to describe color in reference to something else.

BTW, I did see 'Avatar' again a couple weeks back. Paid a lot of attention to colors. An amazing amount of cyan-- Ikrans, bioluminescence, etc. Perhaps, this is where the idea for ean meaning 'blue or green' came from-- cyan is an additive mix of blue and green. (Third bar from left in TV color bars.) There was a fair amount of magenta, the other 'odd' additive color (fifth bar from left in TV color bars), especially in bioluminescence. Not as much green as I would have thought-- scenes that should have had a lot of green were often dark scenes, deep in the forest (Green showed up OK in well-lit scenes). Purples were seen in bioluminescence, often along with magenta and some reds. Of course, you had the deep blue of Na`vi skin. Didn't notice a lot of yellows. There was the striking reds and oranges of Toruk. And a little blood (which was minimized for ratings reasons) Otherwise, these color were uncommon in the Na`vi world.

As far as Na`vi color perception range goes, there were indeed some 'first person' scenes of Jake looking out through his avatar. The color range in those views was the same color range that we would see. That implies that the Na`vi see color the same way we do, even if they can't explain what (for instance) 'red' is without a reference.
[/quote]

Considering all the hues of blue in their surroundings, it would be odd if they saw blue as being just one color, wouldn't it?
I'd expect words for a bunch of colors that we would all consider blue, but the Na'vi would have a practical need for distinguishing between clearly.



msg=172744 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 14:29:18 | u=1120

Re: "color"

roger

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7621.msg172735#msg172735 date=1270390773]
Considering all the hues of blue in their surroundings, it would be odd if they saw blue as being just one color, wouldn't it?
I'd expect words for a bunch of colors that we would all consider blue, but the Na'vi would have a practical need for distinguishing between clearly.
[/quote]

On the other hand, perhaps they don't bother with such commonplace things, and instead have special words for rare colors. Precisely because there is so much in the blue-green range, it may well be more practical to say "X-colored" than to have different abstract words. That's how orange, pink, purple, violet, etc. arose quite recently in English. But red or yellow would stand out in the forest and so would be more salient. They'd also be more likely to be culturally salient with red and yellow items used as decoration and jewelry. But who would have blue jewelry? (Though of course not all Na'vi live in the forest--we keep talking about the colors of the forest rather than the plains or mountains, but all those people speak the same language.)

Large color-term inventories like those of English and Russian only arose with the development of manufacturing and the dyes needed for cloth and paint. The Na'vi would presumably have little use for many abstract color names.



msg=172782 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 15:16:06 | u=5679

Re: "color"

Prrwll Nari

[quote author=roger link=topic=7621.msg172744#msg172744 date=1270391358]
Though of course not all Na'vi live in the forest--we keep talking about the colors of the forest rather than the plains or mountains, but all those people speak the same language.[/quote]

Even though they all speak the Na'vi language, there may be discrepancies in things like color vocabulary, simply based on the variation in their surroundings. A Na'vi tribe from a mountainous region may have the word for "gray" in their vocabulary set, for all the rocks around them. But a Na'vi tribe from the lush forests would almost never see this color, and so may not have a need to give it a specific name.

Also, on the topic of naming things influenced by their commonality, I think it would be much more likely that things that are common to a Na'vi tribe would have names, whereas things that are rarely seen would escape being named, and would be talked about in reference to other things (defined by comparison, that is). Therefore, I agree with Mirri that the Na'vi would have several names for shades of blue that we might not have.

One more thing to add. "ean" is blue/green, as we know. In Japanese, the word "ao" is also blue/green. For the Japanese, "ao" refers not to blue or green, but to a color that could be seen as blueish green, or greenish blue. So, maybe the Na'vi word "ean" also refers to the before mentioned cyan, a color which holds both blue and green properties, and is also very common in the forest depicted in the movie.



msg=172790 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 15:35:42 | u=21

Re: "color"

wm.annis

We've had this discussion already over in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/the-color-palette-vote!/]Lexical Expansion Project[/url].

There is not a single reason to expect people living in a highly colorful jungle environment to have lots of words for colors.  Roger is not just speaking theoretically.  There are groups of people on this colorful planet earth who get along just fine with no more than [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term#Basic_color_terms]two color words[/url], even peoples living in jungles.  These people are still able to distinguish fine differences in color, they just don't bother with a giant color vocabulary.  What they will have is a vast vocabulary for local flora and fauna, which provides a nice set to fall back on for color comparisons.



msg=172804 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 15:59:42 | u=1120

Re: "color"

roger

Also, AFAIK, in every language that has a single color term "grue" (green/blue), it is not cyan but either blue or green. That is, if you ask people to pick the "best" grue in a color wheel, they'll pick either a prototypical blue or a prototypical green, not something in-between. So we really can call it either blue or green. If you ask about the other color, they'll say that green is a kind of blue, or vice versa that blue is a kind of green, just as in most languages people would say that pink is a light shade of red and that orange is a kind of yellow.



msg=172872 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 17:19:00 | u=2104

Re: "color"

Mirri

[quote author=roger link=topic=7621.msg172804#msg172804 date=1270396782]
Also, AFAIK, in every language that has a single color term "grue" (green/blue), it is not cyan but either blue or green. That is, if you ask people to pick the "best" grue in a color wheel, they'll pick either a prototypical blue or a prototypical green, not something in-between. So we really can call it either blue or green. If you ask about the other color, they'll say that green is a kind of blue, or vice versa that blue is a kind of green, just as in most languages people would say that pink is a light shade of red and that orange is a kind of yellow.
[/quote]

Colors do seem to be a very culturally dependent thing, rather than a rational, scientific division of the color spectrum. For instance, I seem to recall the yolk of an egg being "red" in Italian.



msg=172882 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 17:41:11 | u=1120

Re: "color"

roger

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7621.msg172872#msg172872 date=1270401540]
Colors do seem to be a very culturally dependent thing, rather than a rational, scientific division of the color spectrum. For instance, I seem to recall the yolk of an egg being "red" in Italian.
[/quote]
Egg yolks are often quite orange, esp. if they come from your back yard, and orange is yellow-red, so might be considered either. But I bet the "best" red and yellow in Italian are nearly identical to the best red and yellow in English. There are languages which are reported to not correspond to perceptual color space, but they are rather uncommon. Karaja, for example, has a "grue" term that ranges from yellow to  purple; Waorani has one that covers white and yellow. You can see these at [url=http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~regier/color-shape/]http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~regier/color-shape/[/url] (figure 1a is Piraha, figure 4 is Warlpiri, 5 is Karaja, and 6 is Waorani).



msg=172895 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 17:53:35 | u=2104

Re: "color"

Mirri

I'm wondering whether the color terms of, say, western languages have historically been shifted from their original meaning, after scientists created the color spectrum?
Does "red" in English now cover the same colors as it did before the rainbow spectrum entered the cultural mainstream?



msg=172899 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 18:06:29 | u=1120

Re: "color"

roger

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7621.msg172895#msg172895 date=1270403615]
I'm wondering whether the color terms of, say, western languages have historically been shifted from their original meaning, after scientists created the color spectrum?
Does "red" in English now cover the same colors as it did before the rainbow spectrum entered the cultural mainstream?
[/quote]

Yes, the fact that the 'best' red is the same in nearly every non-Western language as it is in Western languages shows that something else is going on than culture. Presumably it depends on the details of color perception, both on the cone cells in our retinas and in how our brains process that info. Not surprising perhaps that the visually most salient colors (red and yellow) are the colors of ripe fruit--something I'd expect to be true for all diurnal primates, or at least the forest-dwelling fruit-eating ones, not just humans.



msg=172902 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 18:16:44 | u=2104

Re: "color"

Mirri

[quote author=roger link=topic=7621.msg172899#msg172899 date=1270404389]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7621.msg172895#msg172895 date=1270403615]
I'm wondering whether the color terms of, say, western languages have historically been shifted from their original meaning, after scientists created the color spectrum?
Does "red" in English now cover the same colors as it did before the rainbow spectrum entered the cultural mainstream?
[/quote]

Yes, the fact that the 'best' red is the same in nearly every non-Western language as it is in Western languages shows that something else is going on than culture. Presumably it depends on the details of color perception, both on the cone cells in our retinas and in how our brains process that info. Not surprising perhaps that the visually most salient colors (red and yellow) are the colors of ripe fruit--something I'd expect to be true for all diurnal primates, or at least the forest-dwelling fruit-eating ones, not just humans.
[/quote]

I don't doubt the biology of it, or the similarity of color perception in the human race, but language and names are a very powerful influence on our way of thinking about things.

If you've never had a cultural reason to assign a name to a specific thing or concept, it doesn't really matter that you are biologically able to easily distinguish it. This just means that it would probably be easy enough to assign a name, but for some reason no one has.
I think Douglas Adam's "The Meaning of Liff" demonstrates this beautifully. This is a book filled with concepts that we all recognize and have noticed before, but there has never been a need to assign a name to them :)



msg=172937 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-04 18:56:07 | u=73

Re: "color"

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=7621.msg172882#msg172882 date=1270402871]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7621.msg172872#msg172872 date=1270401540]
Colors do seem to be a very culturally dependent thing, rather than a rational, scientific division of the color spectrum. For instance, I seem to recall the yolk of an egg being "red" in Italian.
[/quote]
Egg yolks are often quite orange, esp. if they come from your back yard, and orange is yellow-red, so might be considered either. But I bet the "best" red and yellow in Italian are nearly identical to the best red and yellow in English. There are languages which are reported to not correspond to perceptual color space, but they are rather uncommon. Karaja, for example, has a "grue" term that ranges from yellow to  purple; Waorani has one that covers white and yellow. You can see these at [url=http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~regier/color-shape/]http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~regier/color-shape/[/url] (figure 1a is Piraha, figure 4 is Warlpiri, 5 is Karaja, and 6 is Waorani).
[/quote]
[img]http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~regier/color-shape/1a.jpg[/img]

If Martha and Calvin had to duke it out over naming rights on B18 I predict that Martha would win and the world (aka Home Depot or Lowe's) would get another "Dune Mist".

It seems to me (personally) that the more "civilization" creates names for theses things that are scientifically identifiable (but not necessarily casually easily perceived by the uninitiated) the easier it is for us to (a) pay attention and (b) store the perception in memory for future reference. The interior of one of the houses I'm commonly in is painted "Builder White" from Home Depot. The other is "Statuesque" from Lowe's. If I were not around these two different "colors" (experiencing them daily in different contexts of illumination), they would both simply be WHITE to me. No doubt about it. But now, if one were to hold up a series of 7 to 8 "whites" in front of me, I'm guessing I'd have about a 90% chance of identifying "Statuesque" correctly in the lineup. Not so sure about the builder white. Having the association of the name "Statuesque" reminds me that the white in the one house is a tiny bit "creamier" than the other. (A design major trained in color perception might say something like "It skews a bit more yellow.") I recall what the actual "statues" look like at the Louvre, British Museum, Smithsonian in my own experience and that helps make that color REAL for me.

I'm also pretty sure that an art major would do better at correctly selecting yellow ochre, burnt sienna, and raw umber off a chart than I would. The "yellow" attribute on "ochre" would probably help me out a bit though.




msg=173301 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-05 00:43:31 | u=54

Re: "color"

Tiger

Roger and Prrton bring up a good point that I think has been otherwise missed in this thread.  Aside from the major few colors, VERY few colors have their own name.  Most are purely analogies.

Boulder white and statuesque aren't color names, they are analogies to a big rock and a carved statue.  The main colors in the western world are probably the colors we name the rainbow with.  Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet.  Now look back over those list and consider each word.  One of them is a fruit, one a flower, and one is really the name of a dye and the color is just named because that's the shade the dye produces.  That leaves us with red, yellow, green and blue as our colors.  Then we have black, white, gray, and brown.  There are also a few oddities out there such as [desc=Named after a battle, not really as a source of analogy]magenta[/desc] and cyan (Which is, incidentally, the root of "cyanide") but for the most part, the rest of our colors are all analogies.  Rose, peach, teal, lime, cream, coal, etc...  All are just color analogies.

The one color I think merits the most attention here though is brown.  Brown is our blue/green word, in that it doesn't necessarily describe a specific color.  Think about everything that you would describe as brown, and it is quite varying.  Animals, trees, leaves, hair, skin, just to name a few are all things which could in some form be considered brown, but each is a different color.  If brown is so common, why did we only have one word for it for so long?  Even now I suspect most people couldn't give different names to more than a couple different shades, if even that.

The wikipedia article on brown is actually rather interesting.



msg=173307 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-05 00:52:08 | u=5408

Re: "color"

Amaya

Then there's Irish, which actually has two colour words which refer specifically to "magical red" and "magical green" respectively.  Colour words are weird.



msg=173357 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-05 02:12:50 | u=4754

Re: "color"

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7621.msg173301#msg173301 date=1270428211]
Boulder white and statuesque aren't color names, they are analogies to a big rock and a carved statue.  The main colors in the western world are probably the colors we name the rainbow with.  Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet.  Now look back over those list and consider each word.  One of them is a fruit, one a flower, and one is really the name of a dye and the color is just named because that's the shade the dye produces.  That leaves us with red, yellow, green and blue as our colors.  Then we have black, white, gray, and brown.  There are also a few oddities out there such as [desc=Named after a battle, not really as a source of analogy]magenta[/desc] and cyan (Which is, incidentally, the root of "cyanide") but for the most part, the rest of our colors are all analogies.  Rose, peach, teal, lime, cream, coal, etc...  All are just color analogies.[/quote]

The color words selected for Na`vi have to 1.)be varied enough to reflect a useful selection of colors, 2.)Be limited enough in scope to cover what is important but not miss any basic colors, 3.)be useful in a conversation about the Na`vi world. Thus, I agree with Omängum Fra'uti with a couple minor differences.

Omängum Fra'uti first lists red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet-- the spectral colors we are all taught. These are light colors, and therefore additive. I think that indigo is too close to either blue or violet, and was probably added to make 'Roy G. Biv' work. So lets discard it. Now you have red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet. This contains the additive and subtractive primary colors, and many of the secondaries. He suggested cyan, which is a pretty essential color on Pandora, as has been previously discussed. Then, with just the addition of magenta, you have all the primary and all the secondary colors for both additive light) and subtractive (non-light) colors. Thus so far, red, orange, yellow, cyan, green, magenta, blue, violet-- 8 very basic colors. Now, you add brown,  as Omängum Fra'uti suggests. This gives you a color that represents mixed subtractive colors, and is a common color in the natural world-- soils, wood, bark, dried vegetation, etc. Lastly, add black, gray and white. We already have black and white, so all that is needed is gray. So in total, you would have red, orange, yellow, cyan, green, magenta, blue, violet, brown, black, gray and white-- 12 terms that can be used to describe just about any color to adegree that the other party would understand. (Remember, you cannot describe a basic color in terms of another basic color, especially the primary colors.) The only thing one might need in addition to this is a modifier for dark and light shades. As I see it, this is the 'balance' between having 1 or 2 overly broad words for color, and a huge number of terms, like 'puce', 'putty', 'sandstone', etc.

As a television engineer, color is really important to me. More than you would think goes into making sure a TV camera faithfully reproduces the colors it is shooting. Engineers spend hours arguing over how to properly portray a color, and as a result, quite a number of standards for color are currently in use. Since a TV camera cannot exactly mimic the eye, you have to accept tradeoffs to cover a useful range of colors, without the camera generating colors that are not really there.


The wikipedia article on brown is actually rather interesting.
[/quote]



msg=173412 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-05 03:15:13 | u=54

Re: "color"

Tiger

Erm, I wasn't actually suggesting what colors Na'vi would have words for, I was merely pointing out that most of our varied selection of names for colors are purely analogies that through use have become accepted as colors, not actually color words in their own right.



msg=173712 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-05 12:23:32 | u=2104

Re: "color"

Mirri

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7621.msg173357#msg173357 date=1270433570]
Omängum Fra'uti first lists red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet-- the spectral colors we are all taught. These are light colors, and therefore additive. I think that indigo is too close to either blue or violet, and was probably added to make 'Roy G. Biv' work. So lets discard it.
[/quote]
I was about to say. Indigo is not a rainbow color, it was originally a dye from India :)



I do agree with you that most of our color words are related to description of objects. I talked to an artist friend of mine who says it's true that mainstream English didn't have a lot of color words until recently, but artists did because they needed to be able to specify these things. Back then most guys ground their own pigment and mixed their own paint, so it was named after what was in it.

It took a long time before people were able to mix colors that weren't clearly defined, like on the spectrum Prrton showed where one white looks just like the next one. Then marketing departments of those companies started looking for new names. Some were purely PR like "modern pink", others were similies "cornflour blue". There's also the infamous "avocado" or "mint cream", "lipstick red", words that were supposed to sound appealing.
Then there's the organic stuff, "Lincoln green" was the color they used in Lincoln for their cloth. "British racing green", "fire engine red" are other colors that were named after where they were used.

Nowadays these companies do their utmost to contribute to total madness by trademarking all their color names, so the same color has different names, depending on the brand of paint.


Also I seemed to recall this topic being mentioned on QI once, so I grabbed my "Book of general ignorance" and lo and behold!
I'll summarize:

    
The sky in ancient Greece was not blue, but bronze. There is no word for blue in ancient Greek.

(They used this word for copper too, which makes sense to me because it turns blue verdigris when it corrodes.)

    
The nearest words "glaukos" and "kyanos" are more expressions of the relative intensity of light and darkness than attempts to describe color.
Homer mentions only four actual colors in the whole of the Iliad and Odyssey, roughly translated as "black", "white", "greenish yellow" (applied to honey, sap, and blood), and "purply red".

When Homer calls the sky "bronze" he means that it is dazzlingly bright, like the sheen of a shield, rather than "bronze-colored". Likewise he regarded wine, the sea, and sheep as all being the same color "purply red".

Aristotle identified seven shades of color, all of which he thought derived from black and white, but these were really grades of brightness, not color.

In the wake of Darwin it was postulated that the early Greeks' retinas had not evolved the ability to perceive colors, but it is now thought that they simply grouped objects in terms of qualities other than color, so that a word which seems to indicate "yellow" or "light green" really means fluid, fresh and living, and so was appropriately used to describe blood, the human sap.

There are more languages in Papua New Guinea than anywhere else in the world but, apart from distinguishing between light and dark, many of them have no other words for color at all.

Classical Welsh has no words for "brown", "grey", "blue" or "green". Their color spectrum was divided differently. One word "glas" covered part of green; another word the rest of green, the whole of blue and part of grey; a third word the rest of grey and most of brown. Modern Welsh now uses the word "glas" to mean blue.

Russian has no single word for "blue", it has two "goluboi" and "sinii", usually translated as "light blue" and "dark blue", but to Russians they are distinct, different colors, not different shades of the same color.

All languages develop their color terms in the same way. After black and white, the third color to be named is always red, the fourth and fifth are green and yellow (in either order), the sixth is blue and the seventh brown. Welsh still doesn't have a word for brown.


What strikes me as interesting is that these languages did not see light as having a color. All the color words have to do with paint or surfaces (objects).
I can imagine it wasn't until the invention of televisions that we needed to know light could have different colors.
Even stained glass windows on churches would be considered paint, because it really was just a thin layer of paint that made the light change color.

In addition to the colors, English has words like "gloss", "satin" and "matte" to describe reflective qualities of light (texture). There's also funky stuff like [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearlescent_coatings]pearlescent[/url] and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridescent]iridescent[/url] and opalescent and metallic and other ways of 'displaying' colors.

There's also shades of each color. English has "light", "dark", "medium" and "pastel" (pale), for instance.

Even the modern discussion of what color is gets more muddy when you try to define it, for instance in my digital art programs there's five different ways of defining a color. Some use hues and saturations, others RGB or CMYK. Some are palettes, some are mixers, some are gradients.
All these traditional methods of defining color all depend on whether you're trying to make digital art, print, paint, ink, etc.

Add to this the fact that the human eye perceives color as contrasts to the colors surrounding it, rather than an absolute value (nicely demonstrated by the [url=http://www.opticalillusions.net/userpics/37200945503PMchessboard-illusion.jpg]chessboard optical illusion[/url]) and it all gets really confusing!



msg=174910 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 15:36:03 | u=5561

Re: "color"

Mjllonir

Honestly I find it a little strange that Blue AND Green have the same word associated to it. Is there any way to differentiate them, or shall we be confused each time we use the word ean whether it is Green or blue?



msg=174950 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 16:11:45 | u=0

Re: "color"

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Unilfwewyu link=topic=7621.msg174910#msg174910 date=1270568163]
Honestly I find it a little strange that Blue AND Green have the same word associated to it. Is there any way to differentiate them, or shall we be confused each time we use the word ean whether it is Green or blue?
[/quote]

Well, as was mentioned before, the issue with ean being a mixed concept is that blue and green are not as distinguished in the Pandoran flora and fauna as one might think. (Cyan is funny that way.) "Ean" could then mean "cyan," more that either color.

If you wanted to distinguish them in a way that might be psychologically apt, try [desc="water" blue]ean a pay[/desc] for blue and [desc="leaf" green]ean a rìk[/desc] for green. I hope those are adequate...



msg=175458 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:18:52 | u=1120

Re: "color"

roger

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7621.msg174950#msg174950 date=1270570305]
If you wanted to distinguish them in a way that might be psychologically apt, try [desc="water" blue]ean a pay[/desc] for blue and [desc="leaf" green]ean a rìk[/desc] for green. I hope those are adequate...
[/quote]

You can't use 'a' to link nouns. ean payä/rìkä, perhaps, or ean lepay/lerìk.



msg=175462 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:24:24 | u=2104

Re: "color"

Mirri

[quote author=roger link=topic=7621.msg175458#msg175458 date=1270595932]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7621.msg174950#msg174950 date=1270570305]
If you wanted to distinguish them in a way that might be psychologically apt, try [desc="water" blue]ean a pay[/desc] for blue and [desc="leaf" green]ean a rìk[/desc] for green. I hope those are adequate...
[/quote]

You can't use 'a' to link nouns. ean payä/rìkä, perhaps, or ean lepay/lerìk.
[/quote]

I was thinking ean na pay



msg=175464 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:26:14 | u=1120

Re: "color"

roger

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7621.msg175462#msg175462 date=1270596264]
I was thinking ean na pay
[/quote]

Even better.



msg=175467 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:33:10 | u=54

Re: "color"

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=7621.msg175458#msg175458 date=1270595932]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7621.msg174950#msg174950 date=1270570305]
If you wanted to distinguish them in a way that might be psychologically apt, try [desc="water" blue]ean a pay[/desc] for blue and [desc="leaf" green]ean a rìk[/desc] for green. I hope those are adequate...
[/quote]

You can't use 'a' to link nouns. ean payä/rìkä, perhaps, or ean lepay/lerìk.
[/quote]Except that "ean" isn't a noun, it's an adjective.

But you can't use "a" to link adjectives either.  Colors are by nature an adjective.  You can describe the color as a noun but in Na'vi that would be the nominal form.  So "pay aean" would just be "blue water" not "water blue".  We don't really have a structure that is certain to be "water blue" that I can think of.  The best I could think of would be "na tìean payä".



msg=175475 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:45:16 | u=2104

Re: "color"

Mirri

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7621.msg175467#msg175467 date=1270596790]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7621.msg175458#msg175458 date=1270595932]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7621.msg174950#msg174950 date=1270570305]
If you wanted to distinguish them in a way that might be psychologically apt, try [desc="water" blue]ean a pay[/desc] for blue and [desc="leaf" green]ean a rìk[/desc] for green. I hope those are adequate...
[/quote]

You can't use 'a' to link nouns. ean payä/rìkä, perhaps, or ean lepay/lerìk.
[/quote]Except that "ean" isn't a noun, it's an adjective.

But you can't use "a" to link adjectives either.  Colors are by nature an adjective.  You can describe the color as a noun but in Na'vi that would be the nominal form.  So "pay aean" would just be "blue water" not "water blue".  We don't really have a structure that is certain to be "water blue" that I can think of.  The best I could think of would be "na tìean payä".
[/quote]

No need to make it that complicated. Ean na pay



msg=175479 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:51:44 | u=0

Re: "color"

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=roger link=topic=7621.msg175458#msg175458 date=1270595932]
You can't use 'a' to link nouns. ean payä/rìkä, perhaps, or ean lepay/lerìk.
[/quote]

Thank you. That was one of my first thoughts...well, at least, for lerìk.

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7621.msg175462#msg175462 date=1270596264]
I was thinking ean na pay
[/quote]

You know, I do like that one better. Or, hell, more appropriate to the Na'vi, themselves: Ean na ta'leng.



msg=175485 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:11:36 | u=54

Re: "color"

Tiger

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7621.msg175475#msg175475 date=1270597516]
No need to make it that complicated. Ean na pay
[/quote]It's not really that complicated, but try using it outside a simple "lu" statement...

Taw lu ean na pay - The sky is blue like water
Lu lor taw aean na pay - The blue sky is pretty like water - completely different meaning
Lu lor taw a lu ean na pay - The water blue sky is pretty

Taw lu na tìean payä - The sky is like the blue of water
Lu lor taw a na tìean payä - The water blue sky is pretty



msg=175564 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 03:54:07 | u=73

Re: "color"

Prrton

All the water I saw in the movie was "clear". We need a word for "transparent" and a productive something-or-other for "semi-"  ;)

Seriously, though, this is a GREAT discussion. "Brown" is the "color of tea" in Japan while "grey" is the "color of ash."

[img]http://scifiwire.com/assets_c/2010/01/Avatar_neytiri_saldana_facepaint-thumb-550x308-30988.jpg[/img]

I think one of the best ways to go about figuring out what colors they might name is to look at the contrasts in the colors that they DECORATE/CAMOUFLAGE themselves with in their daily lives. The process of manipulating/using colors seems to be a big predictor for having names for them in "culture". It also seems fine to me for the Na'vi to have more colors than their "level of civilization" might predict in comparison to cultures in the Amazon, PNG, etc., even if those (like ours) reference things in their environments. Certainly we had no "neon" colors until we had neon. No "fluorescent" colors until we had technology that was capable of fluorescing. They have all kinds of amazing things going on in their environments that we LITERALLY can only dream of (and soon watch on DVD).  ;) 



msg=175570 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 04:12:13 | u=0

Re: "color"

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7621.msg175564#msg175564 date=1270612447]
Seriously, though, this is a GREAT discussion. "Brown" is the "color of tea" in Japan while "grey" is the "color of ash."
[/quote]

Well put. Colors are not distinguishable from their objects.

I, too, have a feeling that Frommer will have root colors like ean. One for "red/orange," for instance. Though, yellow, rìk, must be of particular importance to the Na'vi to be/have it's own root.



msg=175598 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 06:04:35 | u=54

Re: "color"

Tiger

Yellow is "rim".  Leaf is "rìk".

Yellow is the color of their eyes.  Perhaps it could also be what they call the color that their bio-luminescence glows.  Even if the glowing is greenish/whitish, the fact that it glows would lend itself a closer match to yellow than blue, by some cultural ways of looking at color.

Actually, now that I think about it, I really like that idea about the glow being described more by the quality of the light than by the exact color.  Or maybe the luminescence has it's own "color" name.



msg=175705 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 10:44:38 | u=631

Re: "color"

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7621.msg175598#msg175598 date=1270620275]
Yellow is "rim".  Leaf is "rìk".

Yellow is the color of their eyes.  Perhaps it could also be what they call the color that their bio-luminescence glows.  Even if the glowing is greenish/whitish, the fact that it glows would lend itself a closer match to yellow than blue, by some cultural ways of looking at color.

Actually, now that I think about it, I really like that idea about the glow being described more by the quality of the light than by the exact color.  Or maybe the luminescence has it's own "color" name.
[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Yes, that is something similar I had in mind when I suggested different words for light in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/different-concepts-for-light-%28n-%29/]LEP[/url]
Maybe shade is all there is to it ... when you look at the ocean (at least in some places in our own little 'Rrta) sometimes it seems green, sometimes blue to us ... and all the weird concepts in between ;)
So, I like the idea that one would specify in terms of shade



msg=175765 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 12:30:55 | u=21

Re: "color"

wm.annis

Though the anthropology and linguistics are in themselves interesting, at this point I'm not sure how much more we need to debate this particular issue with respect to Na'vi.  Lu Karyuru fìtxele set.  Po luyu alaksì a krr, awngar payeng.  ;)



msg=175855 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 16:15:33 | u=0

Re: "color"

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7621.msg175598#msg175598 date=1270620275]
Yellow is "rim".  Leaf is "rìk".
[/quote]

Srane. Amomum oel tsat. Irayo. Ro sìkangkemtseng tamängok oe a krr 'ok salmi oel futa pamrel sami keyawr lamängu.
Yes. I knew that. Thanks. I was at work when I had remembered what I wrote was wrong.

Any corrections?



msg=176549 | topic=7621 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 23:31:17 | u=54

Re: "color"

Tiger

Discussion on "Rememberance" split into the intermediate forum.  Please continue it there.
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/rememberance/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/rememberance/[/url]



msg=170416 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-01 23:04:24 | u=132

Idiomatic Expressions

Taronyu

Ha, I ended an email with a phrase I thought was pretty, and Frommer liked it:

[quote]BTW, did you yourself come up with "Ngeyä ikran kawkrr tswivayon nì'awtu"? It's really beautiful. (I'd make just one change: Na'vi likes double negatives, so with kawkrr you use ke with the verb: Ngeyä ikran kawkrr ke tswivayon nì'awtu.

That's exactly what we need much more of in Na'vi: unique, idiomatic expressions that reflect Pandoran life and culture.[/quote]

Interesting about the double negatives, I wouldn't have thought of that. I ended my response with "Tivìng frakrr ngeyä sanhìrì atanit", but who knows what he'll make of that. I wonder, as anyone else had anything similar? Prrton, wm, roger?

Also, I'd like to seriously apologise to everyone for completely mixing up the stupid imaginary word keltu with Kelku again in all of my Na'vi nì'aw dictionaries. I'm a complete and utter idiot.



msg=170459 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 00:15:29 | u=1120

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

roger

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7660.msg170416#msg170416 date=1270163064]
"Ngeyä ikran kawkrr tswivayon nì'awtu"
[/quote]
Yeah, I like it.
[quote]
Also, I'd like to seriously apologise to everyone for completely mixing up the stupid imaginary word keltu with Kelku again in all of my Na'vi nì'aw dictionaries.
[/quote]
It was just St Patrick's Day. You're allowed. Goes with the green beer.



msg=170486 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 01:02:07 | u=0

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Swoka Swizaw

"Ngeyä ikran kawkrr ke tswivayon nì'awtu"

That is really nice...and I could read it. Double score.



msg=170583 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 04:44:04 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

hmmmm, maybe we should ask Frommer if he would like us to brainstorm Na'vi idioms/phrases for his approval? Maybe we should just do that anyway?



msg=170593 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 05:15:58 | u=73

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Prrton

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7660.msg170416#msg170416 date=1270163064]
Ha, I ended an email with a phrase I thought was pretty, and Frommer liked it:

[quote]BTW, did you yourself come up with "Ngeyä ikran kawkrr tswivayon nì'awtu"? It's really beautiful. (I'd make just one change: Na'vi likes double negatives, so with kawkrr you use ke with the verb: Ngeyä ikran kawkrr ke tswivayon nì'awtu.

That's exactly what we need much more of in Na'vi: unique, idiomatic expressions that reflect Pandoran life and culture.[/quote]
Interesting about the double negatives, I wouldn't have thought of that. I ended my response with "Tivìng frakrr ngeyä sanhìrì atanit", but who knows what he'll make of that. I wonder, as anyone else had anything similar? Prrton, wm, roger?
[/quote]

Peu fu pelì'uteri? Tsaral a tsat ngal keratsan oeru ke lu law nìtam fte tsivun oe 'iveyng...  :-\\



msg=170709 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 10:39:55 | u=132

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Taronyu

Ma prrton, ral oeyä aylì'u lu mì tìpawm a tìkenongil [desc=idiomatic expressions]tìpängkxoä akelku-tsawlslawnu[/desc] pawlhu tok ngeyä sìfpe't mì a fkol plltxe tsnì fkoä ronsem sìlstan lu talun tsasìpängkxo a nga salmar?

Ftiafpi, I think we should do that anyway. This seems to me to be affirmation of the idea which one camp of the Na'viä 'eveng belong to - that the language ought to be able to grown organically, not perhaps in ungrammatical expressions but rather through the repeated use of stock phrases which are reminiscent of the nature of the world in which this language is supposed to have been grown. Which I think is a good thing, right?



msg=170900 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 14:51:00 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7660.msg170416#msg170416 date=1270163064]
Interesting about the double negatives, I wouldn't have thought of that...[/quote]

It reminds me of French.  I think of ke...kawkrr as being equivalent to ne...jamais.  If it helps, instead of thinking of kawkrr as "never," think of the whole ke...kawkrr construction as "not ever."  Same with ke...kawtu--"no one" or "not anyone" (compare ne...personne).  Works for me, anyway.



msg=170902 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 14:58:03 | u=21

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

wm.annis

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7660.msg170416#msg170416 date=1270163064]I wonder, as anyone else had anything similar? Prrton, wm, roger? [/quote]

I have been occupied with more basic matters.  Idioms about food, say, are hardly in order when we don't yet have words for "hungry" or "thirsty."  ;)

That said, I've had one phrase idea floating around in my head for a while.  One of the subtle things I enjoyed about the Na'vi were their ears and tails — they were quite expressive.  I've been working with some variation of this:

  mikyun kop plltxe The ear also speaks
  kxetse sì mikyun kop plltxe The tail and ear also speak

The idea is that someone's words might not match their attitude, expression, behavior, etc.  The second is more complete, but I like the shortness and paradoxical twist of the first alone.  These have not been floated before Frommer yet.



msg=170926 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 15:21:32 | u=1120

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

roger

wouldn't 'ear' need to be dual here?



msg=170930 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 15:23:55 | u=21

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=7660.msg170926#msg170926 date=1270221692]wouldn't 'ear' need to be dual here? [/quote]

Could be.  I think the personification is stronger in the singular, but I don't know how much the Na'vi go in for that.  We'd need a rulling from Frommer.



msg=170936 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 15:32:09 | u=1120

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

roger

For information overload, we say "my head is swimming" etc. In Na'vi, how about s.t. like mesaheylu oeru or munea tsaheylu oeru. (Imagine s.o. else plugged into the same horse as you.)



msg=171018 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 17:07:40 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7660.msg170902#msg170902 date=1270220283]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7660.msg170416#msg170416 date=1270163064]I wonder, as anyone else had anything similar? Prrton, wm, roger? [/quote]

I have been occupied with more basic matters.  Idioms about food, say, are hardly in order when we don't yet have words for "hungry" or "thirsty."  ;)

That said, I've had one phrase idea floating around in my head for a while.  One of the subtle things I enjoyed about the Na'vi were their ears and tails — they were quite expressive.  I've been working with some variation of this:

  mikyun kop plltxe The ear also speaks
  kxetse sì mikyun kop plltxe The tail and ear also speak

The idea is that someone's words might not match their attitude, expression, behavior, etc.  The second is more complete, but I like the shortness and paradoxical twist of the first alone.  These have not been floated before Frommer yet.
[/quote]

I've thought about that a lot, too; i imagine Jake would have a hard time learning to hide his emotions in his new Na'vi body because of this--it would make him a lousy poker player!



msg=171147 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 19:16:09 | u=73

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Prrton

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7660.msg170709#msg170709 date=1270204795]
Ma prrton, ral oeyä aylì'u lu mì tìpawm a tìkenongil [desc=idiomatic expressions]tìpängkxoä akelku-tsawlslawnu[/desc] pawlhu tok ngeyä sìfpe't mì a fkol plltxe tsnì fkoä ronsem sìlstan lu talun tsasìpängkxo a nga salmar?
[/quote]

I basically echo what Wm. has said above.

Some of the "ear stuff" that I've thought about before is already captured in the A and B submissions of the LEP.

[quote=LEP PDF (p. 12)]lay back the ears (B) Comments: to protect them, as a sign of aggression – the Na’vi do this a lot in the movie[/quote]

Other's I'd propose along the lines of his speaking tail are:

  "mad tail" «*sti kxetse»

SCENARIO: A couple of folks are watching a "private conversation" (perhaps intimates fighting verbally/arguing) out of the corner of their eyes. The onlookers cannot hear what's being said, but... One is vehemently trying to 'explain' (assume a guy). The other (assume a woman) has her arms folded and is glaring daggers at him. Her tail is flicking back and forth in a highly controlled pattern of an undulating S-curve. She is not saying anything, but it is clear to everyone involved that she is furious. Even the guy is watching her tail (out of the corners of his menari) as it appears to the left and right of her body. He's evaluating her tail as much as her face to figure out if he's making any progress, but trying not to let her know this, because it's considered rude). One of the onlookers comments: "Well, that's one mad tail. I think he's 'spending the night with the nantang'." She, of course, is using her tail to utterly subjugate him, because at another level of social complexity she is also aware of the corners of his eyes and those of the passive onlookers. Without saying a single word to anyone other than to him about "what happened" (ever), she can create a firestorm of gossip that will socially shame him into making much "better choices" about whom he strolls by the river with "next time."

  "calm tail" «*maweya kxetse» / «kxetse nìmawey»

Basically the opposite of "mad tail". Indication that one is completely relaxed based on the comportment of the tail.

  "tail balance" «*kxetsengeng (säpi)»

[desc=When Jake first appeared in the forest he was just like a baby, but now he can even rectify his balance instinctually/automatically with his tail like we do.]Tsakrr a Tsyek lamam mì na'rìng ameve po leru na prrnen nìwotx, slä set keng tsun po *kxetsengeng säpivi *nìyeyftue nìayoeng[/desc].

For the communal comment before a group meal I like:

  «*[desc=This bounty from Eywa shall now be humbly received (by us).]Fìhawngit Eywata tìyuyel[/desc]»

Or just «Fìhawngit tìyuyel» or even «*Tìyuyel» for short.

It's the Japanese model of 頂きます (itadakimasu = "I/we shall receive (this meal)").

My only doubt about it is the euphony level on «hawng». Not the most adorable syllable in the world IMHO ([desc=ìlä safya a fpìl oe]ÌSAFO[/desc]).

I love this kind of speculation, but guess that many might be uncomfortable with certain aspects of it, because at some point(s) it begins to assign values that may not be Cameronian.

So that's the long answer. The short answer is I've never explicitly discussed an idiomatic phrase/maxim with K. Pawl that was specific to Na'vi culture in the sense of your ikran relationship. I agree that it's nice.

What is the CONTEXT for it? When is it uttered? Under what circumstances? Perhaps I've missed something that you've written elsewhere about that. I'd like to know.



msg=171176 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 20:00:27 | u=4754

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Now you've got me going! ;D

I can kind of see why Frommer liked the Ikran expression that Taronyu used. My head is now spinning, trying to come up with some more similar expressions (almost slogans, really), but concerning ayfalulukan. (There have already been a couple about aynantang, one mentioned in this thread).

And speaking of tails, and what they communicate, I fondly remember my liger friend Hobbs doing something very interesting with his tail (which had a tassel on it, like lions and Na`vi). When we would just be sitting together, he would often be deep in thought (what do ligers think about, anyway?) The tip of the tail would be moving around kind of randomly. Every now and then, he would thump the ground with it. I have seen other cats do this, including domestics, but not to the extent Hobbs did it. So from this, I came up with the phrase 'thinking with the tail', which is what I told people he was doing when they observed this. So since we have seen the tail used to (perhaps involuntarily) express emotions, why not fperil fa kxtse? I could see this happening when everyone is seated around the fire in the evening.



msg=171179 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 20:04:15 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7660.msg170902#msg170902 date=1270220283]
I have been occupied with more basic matters.  Idioms about food, say, are hardly in order when we don't yet have words for "hungry" or "thirsty."  ;)

That said, I've had one phrase idea floating around in my head for a while.  One of the subtle things I enjoyed about the Na'vi were their ears and tails — they were quite expressive.  I've been working with some variation of this:

 mikyun kop plltxe The ear also speaks
 kxetse sì mikyun kop plltxe The tail and ear also speak

The idea is that someone's words might not match their attitude, expression, behavior, etc.  The second is more complete, but I like the shortness and paradoxical twist of the first alone.  These have not been floated before Frommer yet.
[/quote]Why kop over nìteng?  This seems more like a nìteng moment to me (Unless you've learned something about the synonyms?)...  And IMO "mikyun nìteng plltxe" has a more poetic flow/sound to it.  (pronounced mik.yu.nì.tem.pll.txe or not)



msg=171181 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 20:11:41 | u=21

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg171179#msg171179 date=1270238655]Why kop over nìteng?  This seems more like a nìteng moment to me (Unless you've learned something about the synonyms?)...[/quote]

No, it's just one of the issues I go back and forth on.

[quote]And IMO "mikyun nìteng plltxe" has a more poetic flow/sound to it.  (pronounced mik.yu.nì.tem.pll.txe)[/quote]

Synaphaea?  Is there something you know that we don't?



msg=171198 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 20:40:09 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

I don't even know what synaphea is!  I can guess from context (And when I looked it up, it didn't seem to apply here, but that aside) that you are referring to my teng->tem...

We actually have several examples of /n/ becoming /m/ in individual words...  txan+pay = txampay, lun + pe = pelun...  But perhaps I took it took far with /ng/ -> /m/ as we do have the sole example of "tsengpe".  Then again we also have zenke which is pronounced zengke ([url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Zenke]Source[/url])...  However again that's not m->ng or ng->m, it's just n->ng.



msg=171401 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 02:16:01 | u=0

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Swoka Swizaw

Seriously, the fact that zenke isn't written "zengke" might be one of Frommer's few conceptual flubs, IMO. That, and "frrfen" (frrfen + <er>). OI!!

As for everything else, we have clear examples of [n] assimilating with [p] and [k] in the middle of words (c.w. words), I feel to create a purer sound. Anything alveolar is rather strong, to be sure. If one tries to anunciate [p] or [k] after [n], one finds that both "get caught." You have to soften it up. As for "tìng mikyun" and "tìng nari," these examples of sound change only pertain to nasals. As I render it myself, I can tell that [N] must, too, be softened to make room for [n] and [m]. Going from [N] to [m] is easier than [N] to [n], of course. But, I suppose to be fair, it's easier to make the rule universal. (Sorry for my rudimentary analysis; I'm not too privy to linguistic terminology.)



msg=171412 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 02:40:11 | u=1225

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

neotrekkerz

The difference in frrfen>frrfen vs. plltxe>poltxe is one of my favorite things about Na'vi.

mikyun kop plltxe is fantastic by the way.



msg=171417 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 02:44:01 | u=631

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Since seeing and perception is so important (damn, we need a word for "important" :P ) for the Na'vi, and I specifically have the scene withe Neytiri kissing Jake's closed eyes in mind, I could imagine they'd have saying like:

Eywal menarit ngeyä pivom (fte kivame)
alternatively for pom it could be 'ampi

Maybe in hope that a stubborn person will reconsider their path/choice and act with reason...

What do you think?



msg=171421 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 02:50:41 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7660.msg171401#msg171401 date=1270260961]
Seriously, the fact that zenke isn't written "zengke" might be one of Frommer's few conceptual flubs, IMO. That, and "frrfen" (frrfen + <er>). OI!!

As for everything else, we have clear examples of [n] assimilating with [p] and [k] in the middle of words (c.w. words), I feel to create a purer sound. Anything alveolar is rather strong, to be sure. If one tries to anunciate [p] or [k] after [n], one finds that both "get caught." You have to soften it up. As for "tìng mikyun" and "tìng nari," these examples of sound change only pertain to nasals. As I render it myself, I can tell that [N] must, too, be softened to make room for [n] and [m]. Going from [N] to [m] is easier than [N] to [n], of course. But, I suppose to be fair, it's easier to make the rule universal. (Sorry for my rudimentary analysis; I'm not too privy to linguistic terminology.)
[/quote]With the zenke vs zengke thing, he admitted he's been inconsistent in the spelling there.  The frrfen thing is a given rule though.

My thinking was that even when you say /ngp/, it still has a hint of an m in there, but rethinking it, it's nowhere near as pronounced as doing /np/ so perhaps I did take it a bit too far.  Yet one more thing to get clarified.



msg=171422 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 02:52:00 | u=0

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Swoka Swizaw

Here's one: (Krr a lu kawng,) ngeyä tstal kawkrr ke tete livu. Too long and literal?

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7660.msg171412#msg171412 date=1270262411]
The difference in frrfen>frrfen vs. plltxe>poltxe is one of my favorite things about Na'vi.
[/quote]

I suppose it's cool. I'm just too literal and formulaic.



msg=171433 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 03:06:53 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

It's quite formulaic though.  If it's a stressed syllable that an infix is merging with, the infix gets dropped.

So FRRfen + er = FRRfen while pllTXE + ol = polTXE.

Hypothetically if the stress of frrfen were on the second syllable it would be frrFEN + er = ferFEN.  Quite predictable.



msg=171434 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 03:16:50 | u=73

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7660.msg171417#msg171417 date=1270262641]
[font=Garamond]...(damn, we need a word for "important" :P )...
[/quote]

In many contexts (most actually) «tsranten» works for "important". It's technically defined at "to matter/to be of import."

  Rutxe, oeru wivìntxu tsat a tsranten nì'aw.

  Please, show me only what's important.

  Yola krr, txana krr, ke tsranten.

  It doesn’t matter how long it takes. (It's not important how long it takes.)



msg=182711 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 20:42:43 | u=631

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Rather by accident I used something in [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-niaw/oeya-pilok/msg182695/#msg182695]this thread[/url] that could be an idiomatic expression for »forgetting«

ke lu oeru tsaheylu hu Eywa

or as alternatives:
ke lu oeru tsaheylu hu utral aymokriyä
lu oeru kea tsaheylu hu …
oe ke lu mì saheylu …

»I don't have a connection with Eywa/the Tree of Voices«
meaning: I have no connection with the voices of our ancestors so what I was going to do or say is lost (at the moment) => ergo: I forgot / it is lost to me (for the moment) / I’m missing something right now

What do you think?



msg=182881 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-15 02:18:53 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7660.msg182711#msg182711 date=1271277763]
What do you think?
[/quote]

Ermmmm, well, this is my personal opinion so don't take it as anything other than that but I don't like it. To me it sounds too negative and doesn't really convey the meaning to me that some knowledge/memory was misplaced. Also, it seems too definite, like "I will never know that" or "I have never known that".

To me a better phrase would be something along the lines of:

"That [thing/memory/knowledge/idea/etc.] is known only by Eywa"
or perhaps;
"My mind has lost that [thing/memory/knowledge/idea/etc.]"
or maybe this is simply a phrase that is best left non-idiomatic;
"I don't know" or "I forgot that" or "I don't remember that" or whatever. Perhaps more poetic forms of those could be made ("My mind will have to hunt for that some more").



msg=182895 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-15 02:34:12 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

You mean like a simple "Tsa'ok ke lu oer"?

Something like "That X is known only by Eywa" sounds awful close to a direct translation of "God only knows".




msg=182931 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-15 03:16:12 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg182895#msg182895 date=1271298852]
You mean like a simple "Tsa'ok ke lu oer"?

Something like "That X is known only by Eywa" sounds awful close to a direct translation of "God only knows".
[/quote]
Yeah, I was worried about it getting too close to that idiom and I think I agree, it does get too close.



msg=183067 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-15 08:37:32 | u=631

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Plumps83

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7660.msg182881#msg182881 date=1271297933]
Ermmmm, well, this is my personal opinion so don't take it as anything other than that but I don't like it. To me it sounds too negative and doesn't really convey the meaning to me that some knowledge/memory was misplaced. Also, it seems too definite, like "I will never know that" or "I have never known that".[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Fair enough :)
It’s okay – I asked for your opinions and I take tìplltxe tìngayä anytime ;) So, thanks for your input. After all, it was just a suggestion. Your points are valid. You’re right, after looking at it again, it does seem more apropriate for somebody who has lost his connection with Eywa completly (still the worst punishment I can imagine for a Na’vi…) – maybe then, a hopeless situation, resignation?

Irayo :)



msg=183193 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-15 12:54:28 | u=1620

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

dontbugme

I think the basic idea is good but i see it the same way as Ftiafpi.
How about a modified version for a similar meaning?
thats what i came to mind:
if you want to say that youre not omniscient:
"i dont know everything that Eywa knows/ is connected with"
but for "know everything" i would use some kind of intensificated meaning of "do tsaheylu

any ideas, opinions or different concepts?



msg=183618 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-15 20:50:09 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

Tewti! What gem of a thread to stumble upon! :D

Taronyu's ikran thing is pretty good with the bonding for life allusion and all, but I find it a bit too cheesy for my palate (and the other one with  the stars even more so.) The Na’vi didn't strike me as a culture appreciative of fermented gland secretions. :D I also thought that annis' mikyun [desc=I too prefer it like this]nìteng[/desc] plltxe was perfect!

But I was kind of surprised people didn't jump on Ayfalulukanä's idea. That gesture is very typical of felids, and I believe also shown in the movie. So here's another suggestion based on that.

Ngeyä kxetse a ke tsurokx. – [desc=and if you laughed reading this then you need to grow up! >:-P]Your tail is restless[/desc].

I'd imagine this would mean something like "What's troubling/bothering you?" or used in a broader sense could also mean "What's on your mind?/Penny for your thoughts." It alliterates nicely. :D



msg=183725 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 01:47:47 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg183618#msg183618 date=1271364609]

Ngeyä kxetse a ke tsurokx. – [desc=and if you laughed reading this then you need to grow up! >:-P]Your tail is restless[/desc].

I'd imagine this would mean something like "What's troubling/bothering you?" or used in a broader sense could also mean "What's on your mind?/Penny for your thoughts." It alliterates nicely. :D
[/quote]

Fì'u oeru prrte' lu nìtxan.



msg=190852 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:55:51 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

Not really idiomatoc as it does literally mean what it says, but to say "I was not here" I came up with "oel tsengot alahe tamok" which has a nice sound to it and would be interesting as a common phrase for that sort of thing.  And it works for "I was not there" too.

Edit: It occurs to me that there are a couple consonants there that could be combined by swapping two words...  "Oel lahea tsengot tamok"



msg=190906 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 00:21:02 | u=0

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Swoka Swizaw

I don't know if this really counts, but I thought of a way for us to either refer to each other, OR (more preferred, to be honest) a way for us to refer to outsiders NOT yet introduced to Na'vi (or Avatar). In the film, humans are "tawtute," yes? On world, this makes sense. Here, though, refering to a conceptual outsider as such, seems too trendy. BUT, I know that we want remain true to the core of Avatar.

Fpìl oel futa lu ngay fwa txo ivomum tuteo teri Na'viti, slayu pol Na'viä hapxìti...
It is true, I think, that whoever knows of the People becomes a part of the People...

...that mean US - so we are all Na'vi, at heart. And to refer to another that is not "in the know," we would call them: Na'vi letawtu. This way, we recognize everyone as a part of the People, but know where they come from before their insanity has been cured.

(More or less, I am suggesting we turn Tawtute into an adjective. After we add "le-," as to not have a lengthy adjective, letawtute, we remove the "-te" at the end: Letawtu. The tu at the end is perfect to stand alone.)



msg=203052 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 20:08:25 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

Back on the topic of expressions to suggest, I came up with Na'vi for "I know you are but what am I"...

Na'vi 'eveng a'awve: Nga lu leskxawng!
Na'vi 'eveng amuve: Nga to oe!
Na'vi 'eveng a'awve: Kanu srak?  Oel omeium.
Na'vi 'eveng amuve: Oe pìryeng sa'nur!
Na'vi 'eveng a'awve: Srak oe to nga lu kanu?  Pol omum nìteng.
Na'vi 'eveng amuve: (zerawng) MA SA'NU|



msg=203076 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 20:36:43 | u=195

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

esoanem

I like it, the example is brilliant. Harmahawng.



msg=203150 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 21:54:41 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

Moved the discusion on Frommer's words to the Intermediate/Sentences forum, as it is a bit off topic here.

[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/re-idiomatic-expressions/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/re-idiomatic-expressions/[/url]



msg=203164 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 22:08:45 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

Here's another one...  For a Na'vi version of "I'll sleep on it" - a few possibilities.

1. Äie zola'u unilmì
2. Unil (oeyä) ftxatsey

But perhaps still too close to a literal translation (of the literal meaning that is)



msg=203198 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 22:45:26 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg203164#msg203164 date=1273010925]
Here's another one...  For a Na'vi version of "I'll sleep on it" - a few possibilities.

1. Äie zola'u unilmì
2. Unil (oeyä) ftxatsey

But perhaps still too close to a literal translation (of the literal meaning that is)
[/quote]

How about:

"Oe oìymum nì'ul maw oe hahaw."

or

"Oeyä unilìl kìyar oeti nì'ul."



msg=203211 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 23:05:04 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

well, by too literal, I mean perhaps get away from the sleep analogy completely.



msg=203250 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 00:53:55 | u=1317

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

I think the most simple answer would be "Oel fpayìl terifì'ut."

OT: Is teri- our only preposition? I thought there were more but it's the only one listed as a prep. on the wiki.



msg=203256 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 01:28:47 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg203211#msg203211 date=1273014304]
well, by too literal, I mean perhaps get away from the sleep analogy completely.
[/quote]

ahhhh



msg=203261 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 01:47:47 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=7660.msg203250#msg203250 date=1273020835]
I think the most simple answer would be "Oel fpayìl terifì'ut."

OT: Is teri- our only preposition? I thought there were more but it's the only one listed as a prep. on the wiki.
[/quote]You're right, lets have everyone stop saying "Let me sleep on it" and they can just say "I'll think about it" instead.  (Sorry, sarcasm, perhaps something I overuse.)

The point of idioms is that they add flavor to the language, not that there isn't another way to say it.  (And teri is one of many adpositions, but when used as a preposition like that it isn't a prefix, plus the noun wouldn't get a case ending.  So it would be "Oe fpayìl fì'uteri/teri fì'u")



msg=203272 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 02:13:41 | u=1317

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Irayo for the corrections.

I know idioms add to a language but I don't think translating English idioms to Na'vi is the right way to go about. The only way for us to get a real Na'vi idiot is for Cameron or Karyu Paul to give it to us. While the meanings of our idioms may seem like they would be obvious, most of the time is basically gibberish to everyone else.

ex.
[desc=Japanese meaning "to be lewd toward women"]The space below a nose is long[/desc]

[desc=Italian meaning "can't stop flirting"]Unable to stop being the owl[/desc]

When we do get canon Na'vi idioms, chances are they are going to seem very outlandish. I believe Paul said himself that he doesn't want Na'vi to be a copy of English.



msg=203280 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 02:30:56 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

Please read the first post of this thread.  The point here is to gather ideas and suggest them to Frommer at some point, not to just make stuff up and call it canon.  Yes I agree that just translating English idioms isn't the way to go, which is why I was trying to give a starting point and an idea of moving away from it.

The thing is, idioms are idioms for a reason.  Because they are common phrases.  So often times, while they may be completely different, different languages can have similar idioms.  Sometimes they aren't even that different at all.  (e.g. "I am called X" is a common idiom.)  So while the literal meaning of idioms shouldn't be translated, the concept or idea that it expresses certainly could.  For example the way I translated "I know you are but what am I?" into "Nga to oe".  The Na'vi actually says nothing like what I gave as the translation.  Rather it's a very short and concise phrase using Na'vi grammar that would be used in a similar situation.

The idiom I was targetting there is something along the lines of "I'll sleep on it" or "Let me get back to you on that" (Or yes, the straight forward "I'll think about it").  I already said I thought what I proposed was too literal, and best to get away from the sleep analogy completely.

Edit: It's also worth noting that several of the suggestions here are quite good, not based (That I know of) on any existing language, and even nicely tied into the Na'vi culture.



msg=203284 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 02:51:26 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

OK, this one isn't particularly brilliant, but I should have gone to bed 5 hours ago, and will have to "wake up" in three.

[desc=Run up that tree!]Tivul vay tsautral![/desc]

This is a generic encouragement used when one faces a difficult situation. It's meaning ranges from a comforting "Don't give up!" through a harsh "Pull yourself together!" to an appreciative "[desc=add "Nang!" for effect]That's the spirit![/desc]" depending on the context in which it's used. The second part [desc=from which you fell]a ta zolup nga[/desc] is never used, but everyone knows it's there (like the [desc=...that broke the camel's back]last straw[/desc] in English.)



msg=203298 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 04:02:18 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

Oh yeah, another one I thought of awhile ago, which is something a bit nonsensical or pointless on its own, but I think would fit the role nicely...

Ma nga!
Hey you!



msg=203340 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 06:58:04 | u=73

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg203298#msg203298 date=1273032138]
Oh yeah, another one I thought of awhile ago, which is something a bit nonsensical or pointless on its own, but I think would fit the role nicely...

Ma nga!
Hey you!
[/quote]

Sìlronsem nìtxan nang!



msg=203373 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 09:23:08 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

[desc=stand-PRFV tail-on one's.]Kllkxolem kxetsesìn fkeyä.[/desc] — Someone stepped on their own tail.

Meaning: Someone is having a bad day. Someone is being super grumpy/snappy.

Etymology: Not only does it hurt, but if it happens while moving then it can cause the victim to trip. Not terribly warrior-like.

Variants: [desc=They stepped on themselves.]Kllkxäpolem.[/desc] — Shorter version. To be uttered under one's breath.
[desc=Don't step on my tail!]Kllkxolem rä’ä kxetsesìn oeyä![/desc] — Final warning: you're really pissing me off!

================

[desc={(it) appears that} (one) could shoot themselves in the elbow {with their own bow}][Lam futa] tsatsun täpivoltem mì puntil [tskohu fkeyä].[/desc] — [One looks like] they could shoot themselves in the elbow [with their own bow].

Meaning: Someone is dangerously clumsy or incompetent, or is simply deemed an utter skxawng.

Etymology: The elbow of the drawing hand is the part of the body which is the furthest away from the wrong end of the arrow during archery. To succeed in hitting it one needs to hold the bow the wrong way – toward themselves.

Variant: [desc=In the elbow, yaaay! (sarcasm)]Mì puntil, pak![/desc]Haha, you suck! Expression of Schadenfreude at another person's failure.



msg=203378 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 09:39:03 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

I'm not sure I'm big on the arrow/elbow one, but I need a Na'vi word for brilliant to describe the tail one! :D  Though describing someone, I'd probably say "Pori kllkxolem kxetsesìn" or to someone who was seeming grumpy "Srak ngari kllkxolem kxetsesìn (fìtrr)?"  But perhaps that could be colloquially shortened to "Srak kllkxolem kxetsesìn?"



msg=203495 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 13:23:12 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

I like the tail one as well.



msg=203515 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 13:47:41 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg203378#msg203378 date=1273052343]
I'm not sure I'm big on the arrow/elbow one[/quote]That's because you probably never played MERP using those insane critical failure tables. They would actually let you pull off stunts like that. Hahaha! :D

[quote]"Pori kllkxolem kxetsesìn"[/quote]I like this pori thing, and it made me realize that a more elegant way of putting my original sentence would be: [desc=to-her stepped-herself on-the-tail]Poru kllkxäpolem kxetsesìn.[/desc] Sounds really nìNa’vi to me.

But my favorite remains kllkxäpolem; it's short, it's sweet, and I find the notion of someone stepping on themselves hilariously absurd. :D

[quote]or to someone who was seeming grumpy "Srak ngari kllkxolem kxetsesìn (fìtrr)?"  But perhaps that could be colloquially shortened to "Srak kllkxolem kxetsesìn?"[/quote]I like this question format a LOT! Takes away the edge a bit, so you can use the expression without being too offensive.


I also thought your Ma nga! was very clever, just like Txur’Itan's similar [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/the-top-case-and-restrictivenon-restrictive-relative-clauses-in-navi/msg199017/#msg199017]Ngari ko?[/url] (which I think belongs in this list.)



msg=203538 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 14:14:13 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg203515#msg203515 date=1273067261]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg203378#msg203378 date=1273052343]
I'm not sure I'm big on the arrow/elbow one[/quote]That's because you probably never played MERP using those insane critical failure tables. They would actually let you pull off stunts like that. Hahaha! :D
[/quote]
Ahahaha!

[spoiler]"You critically fail and hit your friend for 12 damage."
"But my friends 20 feet away."
"Well, then your sword flies out of your hand and strikes him on the arm."
"But I'm wearing locked gauntlets-"
"SHUTUP! The DM has spoken!"

:D[/spoiler]

Anyway, I kind of like the elbow one as well, but it is kind of a stretch, I don't see that being something that would become common usage. But, then again, I'm not a local speaker :P.



msg=203619 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 16:29:41 | u=195

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

esoanem

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg203373#msg203373 date=1273051388]
[desc=stand-PRFV tail-on one's.]Kllkxolem kxetsesìn fkeyä.[/desc] — Someone stepped on their own tail.

Meaning: Someone is having a bad day. Someone is being super grumpy/snappy.

Etymology: Not only does it hurt, but if it happens while moving then it can cause the victim to trip. Not terribly warrior-like.

Variants: [desc=They stepped on themselves.]Kllkxäpolem.[/desc] — Shorter version. To be uttered under one's breath.
[desc=Don't step on my tail!]Kllkxolem rä’ä kxetsesìn oeyä![/desc] — Final warning: you're really pissing me off!

================

[desc={(it) appears that} (one) could shoot themselves in the elbow {with their own bow}][Lam futa] tsatsun täpivoltem mì puntil [tskohu fkeyä].[/desc] — [One looks like] they could shoot themselves in the elbow [with their own bow].

Meaning: Someone is dangerously clumsy or incompetent, or is simply deemed an utter skxawng.

Etymology: The elbow of the drawing hand is the part of the body which is the furthest away from the wrong end of the arrow during archery. To succeed in hitting it one needs to hold the bow the wrong way – toward themselves.

Variant: [desc=In the elbow, yaaay! (sarcasm)]Mì puntil, pak![/desc]Haha, you suck! Expression of Schadenfreude at another person's failure.
[/quote]

I love the first one.

As for the second, the lam futa is wrong on two levels. One lam is intransitive so it would be fwa and two, this is what <ats> is for.  ;)



msg=203754 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 18:03:08 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7660.msg203619#msg203619 date=1273076981]
One lam is intransitive[/quote]

How do we know that?



msg=203766 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 18:12:46 | u=195

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

esoanem

That's a good point actually. I'd just assumed it was intransitive.  :D

I guess it would follow the default rules and be ambitransitive and in this context, transitive.

Irayo for pointing that out to me.

It's academic (not that that's a bad thing) anyway as it's still an unnecessary (and probably odd-sounding) clause that could, and should be replaced by <ats>.



msg=203780 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 18:26:30 | u=3876

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Aysyal

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7660.msg203766#msg203766 date=1273083166]
It's academic (not that that's a bad thing) anyway as it's still an unnecessary (and probably odd-sounding) clause that could, and should be replaced by <ats>.
[/quote]
So... täpivolatsem?
Congratulations, you just beat [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-lernen/erste-satze/msg200565/#msg200565]okrìsti's infix record.[/url] ;)



msg=203785 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 18:33:24 | u=195

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

esoanem

Not quite, he has <äp><iyev><ei> and the <iyev> is sort of two. I'd say he still wins/  ;)



msg=203796 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 18:51:05 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

It would actually be täpilvatsem.

Anyway, in Russia there is a saying that translates roughly as "Words are not sparrows, once they fly off you can not catch them."  Now literally in Na'vi this would probably be something like "Lì'uri ke lu yayona, tswolayon a krr, ke tsun nga stivä'nì."  But that's a literal translation, and I figure the Na'vi would say that soemething more like...

[desc=Choose words like you aim arrows, once either are sfired, it ca not be undone.]Aylì'ut ftxey tengfya ayswizawti kan, 'awlie mesawit fkol toltem, ke tsun tsakem slivu fwa ke si.[/desc]

A bit long and unwieldy, and not ideally how I'd like to translate it.  Also, it's more of an analogy than an idiom.  BUT...  Colloquailly (And this works even if the translation is cleaned up) I'd imagine it would be referenced in a short idiom.

[desc=Think before you speak]Aylì'ut (ngeyä) kivan[/desc]



msg=203820 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 19:16:53 | u=1620

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

dontbugme

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7660.msg203538#msg203538 date=1273068853]
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg203515#msg203515 date=1273067261]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg203378#msg203378 date=1273052343]
I'm not sure I'm big on the arrow/elbow one[/quote]That's because you probably never played MERP using those insane critical failure tables. They would actually let you pull off stunts like that. Hahaha! :D
[/quote]
Ahahaha!

[spoiler]"You critically fail and hit your friend for 12 damage."
"But my friends 20 feet away."
"Well, then your sword flies out of your hand and strikes him on the arm."
"But I'm wearing locked gauntlets-"
"SHUTUP! The DM has spoken!"

:D[/spoiler]

Anyway, I kind of like the elbow one as well, but it is kind of a stretch, I don't see that being something that would become common usage. But, then again, I'm not a local speaker :P.
[/quote]

[spoiler]I had to think about a situation in an RPG too. People climbed on a tree to flee from the enemy. One person threw spears and diced a critical fail. I, as master, chose to guide the spear into his foot. That being not unpractical enough he diced a 20 again in the next turn. So even before pulling out the first one he had another one in the second foot. I would have liked seeing that in real  ;D[/spoiler]

so i try a variation:

Alt1: [desc=you would even shout into your feet]nga keng tivoltem ngeyä mevenut[/desc]
Alt2: [desc=you would even shout yourself in the foot]nga keng venut täpivoltem[/desc]



msg=203959 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 21:38:38 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7660.msg203766#msg203766 date=1273083166]
That's a good point actually. I'd just assumed it was intransitive.  :D

I guess it would follow the default rules and be ambitransitive and in this context, transitive.

Irayo for pointing that out to me.

It's academic (not that that's a bad thing) anyway as it's still an unnecessary (and probably odd-sounding) clause that could, and should be replaced by <ats>.
[/quote]

The way I see it, there's a fundamental difference between a transitive lam, and a causative one. Consider:

Skxawng lamamINTR. — A moron appeared.
Pol skxawngit lamamTRN. — He appeared [to be] a moron. (This obviously is just an approximation as English has no TRN "appear.")
Pol skxawngit leykamamTRN. — He made a moron appear. ("Made appear" is in the semantic realm of "show/produce.")
Pol skxawngit ?[desc=this is possibly invalid –
I vaguely recall ‹ eyk › & ‹ äp › being mutually exclusive; I'm not even sure which one would come first]läpeykamam[/desc]TRN. — He made himself appear a moron. (This is, I believe, what you wanted to express.)

At least, that's my intuition. Of course, it might still be that lam is INTR-only. Or would we have learned that when Pawl gave us all the verbs?



msg=203961 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 21:42:24 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg203796#msg203796 date=1273085465]
[desc=Think before you speak]Aylì'ut (ngeyä) kivan[/desc][/quote]

This is not bad, especially the short version above. My only objection would be that to me it feels a bit too similar to the English "choose your words carefully", which I'm aware is not an idiom, but still.



msg=203968 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 21:50:36 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

I sort of see the main usage as being different though.  "Choose your words carefully" to me carries the implication that you are expecting a response from them, and warning against giving the wrong response.  For the Na'vi expression, I had something a little more general in mind.  Perhaps something more akin to "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" but on a broader theme.



msg=203978 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 22:00:12 | u=21

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

wm.annis

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg203959#msg203959 date=1273095518]Skxawng lamamINTR. — A moron appeared.
Pol skxawngit lamamTRN. — He appeared [to be] a moron. (This obviously is just an approximation as English has no TRN "appear.")
[/quote]

In every language I've dealt with your second sentence would also mean "he manifested a moron."  There is no transitive sense of just "appear" — it doesn't hold together semantically.  "He appeared to be a moron" is going to show up as intransitive, or require the verbal complement "to be" (also intransitive).



msg=204011 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 22:30:22 | u=73

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Prrton

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg203959#msg203959 date=1273095518]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7660.msg203766#msg203766 date=1273083166]
That's a good point actually. I'd just assumed it was intransitive.  :D

I guess it would follow the default rules and be ambitransitive and in this context, transitive.

Irayo for pointing that out to me.

It's academic (not that that's a bad thing) anyway as it's still an unnecessary (and probably odd-sounding) clause that could, and should be replaced by <ats>.
[/quote]

Pol skxawngit ?[desc=this is possibly invalid –
I vaguely recall ‹ eyk › & ‹ äp › being mutually exclusive; I'm not even sure which one would come first]läpeykamam[/desc]TRN. — He made himself appear a moron. (This is, I believe, what you wanted to express.)

[quote]I vaguely recall ‹ eyk › & ‹ äp › being mutually exclusive; I'm not even sure which one would come first[/quote]

[/quote]

I don't think that «eyk» & «äp» can occur together and I remember a specific comment that verbs in «äp» only take intransitive subjects.



msg=204027 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 22:51:24 | u=73

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Prrton

I really like the "ouched tail" thing for "grumpy, out of sorts", but couldn't it just be:

  kxetse akxawnem ?

It seems to me that the «kll» part of «kllkxem» is just the "object" part of that compound affected by the other root that we we don't have separately (yet?), but which seems to imply something about body weight supported by the feet and legs.

  P: Pelun fìtrr po fìtxan keftxo leru?
  'Ey: Kxetse akxawnem nì'aw

Tsakato kop lor latsu.



msg=204060 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 23:41:03 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7660.msg204027#msg204027 date=1273099884]
I really like the "ouched tail" thing for "grumpy, out of sorts", but couldn't it just be:

 kxetse akxawnem ?[/quote]

I'd still prefer [desc=on-themselves-stepped tail (here: a metonymy for the tute)]kxetse [desc=if this is grammatical]akxäpawnem[/desc][/desc], for its sheer absurdity, but yours would be my first runner-up. :D

[quote]It seems to me that the «kll» part of «kllkxem» is just the "object" part of that compound affected by the other root that we we don't have separately (yet?), but which seems to imply something about body weight supported by the feet and legs.[/quote]

This makes a lot of sense! :D

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7660.msg203978#msg203978 date=1273096812]
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg203959#msg203959 date=1273095518]Skxawng lamamINTR. — A moron appeared.
Pol skxawngit lamamTRN. — He appeared [to be] a moron. (This obviously is just an approximation as English has no TRN "appear.")
[/quote]

In every language I've dealt with your second sentence would also mean "he manifested a moron."  There is no transitive sense of just "appear" — it doesn't hold together semantically.  "He appeared to be a moron" is going to show up as intransitive, or require the verbal complement "to be" (also intransitive).
[/quote]

Even if that is so – and I doubt you not –, it would seem to me that leykam doesn't quite mean what [desc=hey, i managed to write it down without peeking! :)]kemeoauniaea[/desc] intended.

How about this then?

[Oe-ru po] skxawng-ur lam.
[font=q][To-meDAT she] moron-DAT appears.
[font=Lucida Console][NekemDAT ő] tökfej-nekDAT tűnik.
[She] looks like a moron [to me].


It looks totally weird to me too, but this how you'd say it in Hungarian. I've just realized this, and quite frankly, have no idea why it works.



msg=204094 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 01:29:31 | u=21

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

wm.annis

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg204060#msg204060 date=1273102863]How about this then?

[Oe-ru po] skxawng-ur lam.[/quote]

Since we already have seen teng na..., the phrasing lam na ... seems somewhat more likely that a double dative.  However, how about we add this to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/]list of things[/url] to ask Frommer? 



msg=204097 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 01:48:48 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7660.msg204094#msg204094 date=1273109371]
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg204060#msg204060 date=1273102863]How about this then?

[Oe-ru po] skxawng-ur lam.[/quote]

Since we already have seen teng na..., the phrasing lam na ... seems somewhat more likely that a double dative.  However, how about we add this to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/]list of things[/url] to ask Frommer? 
[/quote]

Couldn't it just be Po lam nìskxawng?



msg=204127 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 04:35:52 | u=73

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7660.msg204094#msg204094 date=1273109371]
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg204060#msg204060 date=1273102863]How about this then?

[Oe-ru po] skxawng-ur lam.[/quote]

Since we already have seen teng na..., the phrasing lam na ... seems somewhat more likely that a double dative.  However, how about we add this to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/]list of things[/url] to ask Frommer? 
[/quote]

I was going to say this about na earlier today and then chickened out because I couldn't figure out how to get in the -eyk- (causative) part succinctly (but actually I don't think the -eyk-ing is the core issue (is it?).

I vote for a campaign to get «skxawng säpi» (cf: «win säpi») canonized as opposed to jumping through other hoops backwards that might not be as efficient or ‘natively’ Na'vi. (Granted. Subjective.)

«Pona leskxawng!» ((if it's) like him, (it's) moronic!) works quite well for me too.  ;)

skxawng also has a lot of potential (tEmO)



msg=204160 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 06:04:31 | u=195

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

esoanem

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg203959#msg203959 date=1273095518]

The way I see it, there's a fundamental difference between a transitive lam, and a causative one. Consider:

Skxawng lamamINTR. — A moron appeared.
Pol skxawngit lamamTRN. — He appeared [to be] a moron. (This obviously is just an approximation as English has no TRN "appear.")
Pol skxawngit leykamamTRN. — He made a moron appear. ("Made appear" is in the semantic realm of "show/produce.")
Pol skxawngit ?[desc=this is possibly invalid –
I vaguely recall ‹ eyk › & ‹ äp › being mutually exclusive; I'm not even sure which one would come first]läpeykamam[/desc]TRN. — He made himself appear a moron. (This is, I believe, what you wanted to express.)

At least, that's my intuition. Of course, it might still be that lam is INTR-only. Or would we have learned that when Pawl gave us all the verbs?
[/quote]

Given the translation as appear or seem I'd say that 1 and 3 are invalid as lam probably only refers to the seeming aspect of appear rather than arriving or showing up (which would be pähem)

The second is a copula example so cases aren't needed.

The fourth should work I think but, again, because it's copula the case of skxawng should be dropped and, because it's reflexive so should the one on po. Now that I think about it, it probably shouldn't work, <eyk> raises the valency of the verb by one (by creating a direct object) and <äp> lowers the valency by one (by unifying the direct object and subject), this makes me inclined to say that they'd cancel and it would reduce to po skxawng lam.

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=7660.msg204060#msg204060 date=1273102863]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7660.msg203978#msg203978 date=1273096812]
In every language I've dealt with your second sentence would also mean "he manifested a moron."  There is no transitive sense of just "appear" — it doesn't hold together semantically.  "He appeared to be a moron" is going to show up as intransitive, or require the verbal complement "to be" (also intransitive).
[/quote]

Even if that is so – and I doubt you not –, it would seem to me that leykam doesn't quite mean what [desc=hey, i managed to write it down without peeking! :)]kemeoauniaea[/desc] intended.

How about this then?

[Oe-ru po] skxawng-ur lam.
[font=q][To-meDAT she] moron-DAT appears.
[font=Lucida Console][NekemDAT ő] tökfej-nekDAT tűnik.
[She] looks like a moron [to me].


It looks totally weird to me too, but this how you'd say it in Hungarian. I've just realized this, and quite frankly, have no idea why it works.
[/quote]

When did I use <eyk> in it?

Anyway, double datives would make this very strange and idiomatic as without an idiomatic structure, it would be uninterpretably ambiguous.



msg=204186 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 08:36:32 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

Ma kemeoauniaea, Prrton, wm.annissì!

All of you offer very clever solutions, but seeing how there are at least five sound-looking ways to think about this verb, I'd say clarification from Pawl is needed. :D

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7660.msg204160#msg204160 date=1273125871]
Given the translation as appear or seem I'd say that 1 and 3 are invalid as lam probably only refers to the seeming aspect of appear rather than arriving or showing up (which would be pähem)[/quote]
I don't agree. The non-seeming "appear" and "arrive" are semantically distinct.

[quote]The second is a copula example so cases aren't needed.[/quote]
It wasn't meant to be a copula example (my bracketing in the English transcription is misleading though.) That was my version for the transitive lam, where it takes as its DO the thing that the subject appears as. However, wm.annis seems to think it's invalid on semantic grounds, and I have to admit, none of the languages I know has a transitive "seem/appear."

[quote]The fourth should work I think but, again, because it's copula the case of skxawng should be dropped and, because it's reflexive so should the one on po. Now that I think about it, it probably shouldn't work, <eyk> raises the valency of the verb by one (by creating a direct object) and <äp> lowers the valency by one (by unifying the direct object and subject), this makes me inclined to say that they'd cancel and it would reduce to po skxawng lam.[/quote]
That's definitely a no-no, I'm certain now, exactly because of the valency issue. I don't think po skxawng lam could work as the (pro-)NPs would have to be case-marked for the sentence to parse. However, if skxawng was turned into an adj then perhaps po leskxawng lam would be valid, in the analogy of "he appears stupid."

[quote]Anyway, double datives would make this very strange and idiomatic as without an idiomatic structure, it would be uninterpretably ambiguous.
[/quote]
You're absolutely right about that. It must be idiomatic, otherwise the relations of who appears as what to whom become obfuscated.



msg=204622 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 18:31:33 | u=195

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

esoanem

1. I agree with you, I was just searching for a nearest synonym and failed a bit.

2. Well it is. It should be no different from "po skxawng lu", both lu and lam are copulae and they both have both arguments as nouns.

3. po skxawng lam would be no different from po skxawng lu or oe tsamsiyu lu, whilst it might often be nicer to adjective-ise it, it seems unreasonable to say that it would be required. It would mean "he seems to be a moron" or, slightly more archaically "he seems a moron"



msg=205057 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 09:30:48 | u=2788

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=7660.msg203272#msg203272 date=1273025621]
The only way for us to get a real Na'vi idiot is for Cameron or Karyu Paul to give it to us.[/quote]

Ngaytxoa, slä faylì'ul oeti heykolangham nìtxan!  ;D



msg=205617 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 22:09:19 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

TGIF = irayo eywaru a fìtrr lu trrpuve = IEFLT :)



msg=220355 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-05-28 23:01:10 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

So I sent some of these to Frommer, and he seems to have liked them.  I hadn't gotten much of a response except that he thought some were interesting, but some seemed to certainly stick in his mind.  He mentioned William's "Ear and tail" one at the Phoenix Comicon skype talk today when asked about literal translations vs idioms.



msg=241534 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 17:54:18 | u=134

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

vidvamp01

If only there was a Sarcasm infix.

Speaker one:
The Path to the Heart of the SkyPeople is through love.
Fya’o a ne te'lan    sawtuteyä kxamlä  tìyawn  leru.
Path  twards heart of skypeople through love is.

Speaker two retort:
The Path to the Heart of the SkyPeople is through Eytukan's Bow.
Fya’o a ne te'lan    sawtuteyä    kxamlä  tsko Eytukanyä lasyu.
Path  twards heart of skypeople through Bow of Eytukan is.



msg=241596 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 18:48:55 | u=195

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

esoanem

I believe that it should be "fya'o a ne te'lan sawtuteyä", adpositions never describe nouns, just verbs, here the verb is an elided lu.



msg=241612 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 19:02:57 | u=134

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

vidvamp01

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7660.msg241596#msg241596 date=1276973335]
I believe that it should be "fya'o a ne te'lan sawtuteyä", adpositions never describe nouns, just verbs, here the verb is an elided lu.
[/quote]

Gotcha



msg=241754 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 20:24:04 | u=1620

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

dontbugme

[quote author=Txur’Itan link=topic=7660.msg241534#msg241534 date=1276970058]
If only there was a Sarcasm infix.

Speaker one:
The Path to the Heart of the SkyPeople is through love.
Fya’o a ne te'lan    sawtuteyä kxamlä  tìyawn  leru.
Path  twards heart of skypeople through love is.

Speaker two retort:
The Path to the Heart of the SkyPeople is through Eytukan's Bow.
Fya’o a ne te'lan    sawtuteyä    kxamlä  tsko Eytukanyä lasyu.
Path  twards heart of skypeople through Bow of Eytukan is.
[/quote]

wouldn't "ìlä" fit better in this situation?



msg=242128 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 03:29:56 | u=134

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

vidvamp01

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7660.msg241754#msg241754 date=1276979044]
[quote author=Txur’Itan link=topic=7660.msg241534#msg241534 date=1276970058]
If only there was a Sarcasm infix.

Speaker one:
The Path to the Heart of the SkyPeople is through love.
Fya’o a ne te'lan    sawtuteyä kxamlä  tìyawn  leru.
Path  twards heart of skypeople through love is.

Speaker two retort:
The Path to the Heart of the SkyPeople is through Eytukan's Bow.
Fya’o a ne te'lan    sawtuteyä    kxamlä  tsko Eytukanyä lasyu.
Path  twards heart of skypeople through Bow of Eytukan is.
[/quote]

wouldn't "ìlä" fit better in this situation?
[/quote]

It might be an alternate form, but I don't see it as a better versus worse way of saying it.



msg=256830 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 10:32:47 | u=132

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Taronyu

I was walking through town the other day after a storm passed, and thought of a cool phrase for storms, I think.

krr rusikxa ayrìkä - time of the moved leaves

I was thinking of using mìn, turn, but the shortened version of the above could be

rikxrìk - turnleaf

which just reminds me of the sounds the trees make when they rub against each other. (In Pirahã they say that is when the trees copulate o.O)

What do you guys think? (Sorry for necroposting, figure this is more of a constant contribution thread anyway.)



msg=256833 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 10:42:15 | u=631

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Mmmmmmh, I like it :D Txantsan!

Just to decide whether it’s a continuous action: krr rusikxa ayrìkä (moving)
or the time after the storm: krr rawnikxa ayrìkä (moved)

For me, this expression has something of ›the time of first songs‹ — very beautiful, and musical only ;)

*hrh* thinking of the massive amount of trees on Eywa’eveng I’d presume there is a lot of leaf-rubbing going on ;D



msg=256940 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 13:24:55 | u=1751

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

blueme

rikxrìk... very cool! love it! :D



msg=257021 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 14:40:07 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

Oeru fìsäfpìl ngeyä wou, ma Taronyu.  Tsaw lor leiu nìtxan.



msg=303214 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-09-05 21:20:55 | u=631

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Sorry to necropost but I wanted to know what you think and this is really the appropriate place…

Was thinking about the expression »Out of sight, out of mind« the other day and since the Na’vi don’t necessarily perceive with their eyes I thought about something like:

(neto) ftu tswin, (neto) ftu ronsem

Thoughts?



msg=303408 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-09-06 06:53:59 | u=4

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

zombat

plumps - it still seems kind of directly translated, as opposed to an idiom in itself.

Perhaps luke menari, ronsem zererok[desc=Though this goes against your assertion that the na'vi are less literally seeing]*[/desc]
"without eyes, the mind forgets"

or better ayswizaw nìftue slu tìzawnerok
"Arrows become easily forgotten"
or modified na'rìngìl txana ayswizawìt lew seri
"The forest hides many arrows"

I figure since the bow and hunting is so integral to their society, much practice with bows yields many lost arrows - I shoot bows often, and often in the woods by my house and it is insanely easy to lose arrows. Worse, you seem to lose track of how many arrows you had if you shoot many at once - for example I tend to keep track of my arrows better when there are only 4 or 6. One afternoon, I had about 12 arrows and over the course of an hour that number whittled down to 8 somehow and after that day I completely forgot about them.

Furthermore, since their arrows are made from wood, and the whole interconnectedness of life is deeply ingrained in their social behavior ...
Ayswizaw tätxaw ne ayutral
Arrows return to trees

which I like best :P



msg=342676 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-03 17:05:30 | u=3048

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Txepsiyu

  Although I am probably the last person that should be attempting something like this, the concept of Eywa is one of the most fascinating things to me from the film, so I have been pondering some proverbial phrases about her. I thought of one that refers to the connectedness of the life on Pandora:

Eywa Na'vihu ke plltxe nì'aw - Eywa doesn't just speak to the Na'vi




msg=342814 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-03 21:02:53 | u=7041

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TunVrrtep

[quote author=Markì link=topic=7660.msg342676#msg342676 date=1288803930]
  Although I am probably the last person that should be attempting something like this, the concept of Eywa is one of the most fascinating things to me from the film, so I have been pondering some proverbial phrases about her. I thought of one that refers to the connectedness of the life on Pandora:

Eywa Na'vihu ke plltxe nì'aw - Eywa doesn't just speak to the Na'vi


[/quote]

That's a good one, Markì!
I'm all for the Goddess themes.  This definitely fits in with my feelings about the interconnectedness of the entire planet.



msg=343031 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-04 14:17:20 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Markì link=topic=7660.msg342676#msg342676 date=1288803930]
  Although I am probably the last person that should be attempting something like this, the concept of Eywa is one of the most fascinating things to me from the film, so I have been pondering some proverbial phrases about her. I thought of one that refers to the connectedness of the life on Pandora:

Eywa Na'vihu ke plltxe nì'aw - Eywa doesn't just speak to the Na'vi

[/quote]
I love it! I think this is a very good one and it definitely reflects their culture and is a pretty nifty saying as well.



msg=343084 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-04 16:11:48 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7660.msg343031#msg343031 date=1288880240]
[quote author=Markì link=topic=7660.msg342676#msg342676 date=1288803930]
 Although I am probably the last person that should be attempting something like this, the concept of Eywa is one of the most fascinating things to me from the film, so I have been pondering some proverbial phrases about her. I thought of one that refers to the connectedness of the life on Pandora:

Eywa Na'vihu ke plltxe nì'aw - Eywa doesn't just speak to the Na'vi

[/quote]
I love it! I think this is a very good one and it definitely reflects their culture and is a pretty nifty saying as well.
[/quote]

I like it, too; but i would suggest a slight change.  The way nì'aw is used, the current word order seems to me to mean "Eywa doesn't only speak with the Na'vi."  Do you get what i mean?  So, i think to get the emphasis in the right place, it needs to be,

Eywa ke plltxe Na'vihu nì'aw.

If i completely misunderstood, and that original meaning was the one you were going for in the first place, then ngaytxoa.

Edit: fixed a typo. durrr...



msg=343185 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-04 19:31:17 | u=4754

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Here's another simple 'tail' idiom, that I am surprised hasn't been mentioned before.

[desc=Tail between legs]kxetse mìkam mehinam[/desc]

Might be a litle less 'Englishy' as

[desc=Between legs tail]mìkam mehinam kxetse[/desc]

Essentially what one would do if they knew they messed up and were going to get in trouble for it.



msg=343390 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-05 01:07:14 | u=3048

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Txepsiyu

My brain is trying to tell me that somewhere Paul mentioned that the more "important" words in the phrase go at the front, but I could be hallucinating.  I do think I like your tweak on it though.  Irayo!



msg=343550 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-05 15:09:14 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Markì link=topic=7660.msg343390#msg343390 date=1288919234]
My brain is trying to tell me that somewhere Paul mentioned that the more "important" words in the phrase go at the front, but I could be hallucinating.  I do think I like your tweak on it though.  Irayo!
[/quote]
If I recall correctly it was:

New or important information should go first, blah-blah in the middle, punch or exclamation goes at the end.



msg=343559 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-05 15:49:32 | u=3048

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Txepsiyu

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg343084#msg343084 date=1288887108]
I like it, too; but i would suggest a slight change.  The way nì'aw is used, the current word order seems to me to mean "Eywa doesn't only speak with the Na'vi."  Do you get what i mean?  So, i think to get the emphasis in the right place, it needs to be,

Eywa ke plltxe Na'vihu nì'aw.

If i completely misunderstood, and that original meaning was the one you were going for in the first place, then ngaytxoa.

Edit: fixed a typo. durrr...
[/quote]


The other way is a valid proverbial too, that Eywa does more than just speak to the Na'vi, but that wasn't what I meant.  What I wanted to say was that Eywa speaks with every living thing, not just the Na'vi. Your word order is more to that point, I think.

Expanded, "Fpi meoauniaea, Eywa ke plltxe Na'vihu nì'aw."  Does that work?



msg=343592 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-05 18:04:47 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

[quote author=Markì link=topic=7660.msg343559#msg343559 date=1288972172]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg343084#msg343084 date=1288887108]
I like it, too; but i would suggest a slight change.  The way nì'aw is used, the current word order seems to me to mean "Eywa doesn't only speak with the Na'vi."  Do you get what i mean?  So, i think to get the emphasis in the right place, it needs to be,

Eywa ke plltxe Na'vihu nì'aw.

If i completely misunderstood, and that original meaning was the one you were going for in the first place, then ngaytxoa.

Edit: fixed a typo. durrr...
[/quote]


The other way is a valid proverbial too, that Eywa does more than just speak to the Na'vi, but that wasn't what I meant.  What I wanted to say was that Eywa speaks with every living thing, not just the Na'vi. Your word order is more to that point, I think.

Expanded, "Fpi meoauniaea, Eywa ke plltxe Na'vihu nì'aw."  Does that work?
[/quote]

=)  I do like it, a lot.  And what about this?

[desc=When Eywa speaks, every ear hears]Eywa plltxe a krr, framikyunìl stawm[/desc].



msg=343666 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-05 20:53:07 | u=7041

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TunVrrtep

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg343592#msg343592 date=1288980287]

=)  I do like it, a lot.  And what about this?

[desc=When Eywa speaks, every ear hears]Eywa plltxe a krr, framikyunìl stawm[/desc].
[/quote]

Oh, Ki'eyawn, that is beautiful. 

I've been working on translating some Goddess chants and I've got a few of my own.  I'll have to pull them out. 

Just can't do it now.  I'm late trying to get ready to go out tonight.

ta TunVrrtep



msg=343671 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-05 20:57:06 | u=3048

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Txepsiyu

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg343592#msg343592 date=1288980287]
=)  I do like it, a lot.  And what about this?

[desc=When Eywa speaks, every ear hears]Eywa plltxe a krr, framikyunìl stawm[/desc].
[/quote]

Yes! I like that too.  I would think that the Na'vi would have a lot of proverbials about Nawma Sa'nok.



msg=343744 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-05 22:50:38 | u=7041

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TunVrrtep

Ok.  It's not an Idiomatic expression.  It's a Goddess chant.  But here is one of them.  

[desc=Spiraling into the center]Srerew 'ìheyu nemfa kxamtseng[/desc]
[desc=The center of our shield (repeat both lines)]Kxamtseng ayoengeyä tìhawnu (leyn)[/desc]
[desc=I am the weaver I am the woven one]Lu oe täftxuyu lu oe tawnäftxua ‘awpo[/desc]
[desc=I am the dreamer I am the dream (repeat both lines)]Lu oe uniltu lu oe unil (leyn)[/desc]

I'm going to work on translating some of the rules of Wicca also.  

ta TunVrrtep

NOTE:  Modified the word tawnamäftxua to the corrected form of tawnäftxua.



msg=346342 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-11 08:41:29 | u=6582

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

lapo lesxkxawng

Here's a thought: heard of the term proverb before?  What would really stick as a Na'vi proverb and what is just an idiomatic expression?

One Na'vi proverb off the top of my ronsem: Kxetse sì mikyun plltxe kop.

I'm sure more might develop through time....




msg=346417 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-11 14:49:54 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

[quote author=TunVrrtep link=topic=7660.msg343744#msg343744 date=1288997438]
Ok.  It's not an Idiomatic expression.  It's a Goddess chant.  But here is one of them. 

[desc=Spiraling into the center]Srerew 'ìheyu nemfa kxamtseng[/desc]
[desc=The center of our shield (repeat both lines)]Kxamtseng ayoengeyä tìhawnu (leyn)[/desc]
[desc=I am the weaver I am the woven one]Lu oe täftxuyu lu oe tawnamäftxua ‘awpo[/desc]
[desc=I am the dreamer I am the dream (repeat both lines)]Lu oe uniltu lu oe unil (leyn)[/desc]

I'm going to work on translating some of the rules of Wicca also. 

ta TunVrrtep
[/quote]

So, sorry i didn't catch this earlier, but you don't need that <am> in täftxu.  The participle <awn> is all you need for "woven".  So, lu oe tawnäftxua 'awpo



msg=346420 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-11 14:52:51 | u=7041

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TunVrrtep

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg346417#msg346417 date=1289486994]
[quote author=TunVrrtep link=topic=7660.msg343744#msg343744 date=1288997438]
Ok.  It's not an Idiomatic expression.  It's a Goddess chant.  But here is one of them. 

[desc=Spiraling into the center]Srerew 'ìheyu nemfa kxamtseng[/desc]
[desc=The center of our shield (repeat both lines)]Kxamtseng ayoengeyä tìhawnu (leyn)[/desc]
[desc=I am the weaver I am the woven one]Lu oe täftxuyu lu oe tawnamäftxua ‘awpo[/desc]
[desc=I am the dreamer I am the dream (repeat both lines)]Lu oe uniltu lu oe unil (leyn)[/desc]

I'm going to work on translating some of the rules of Wicca also. 

ta TunVrrtep
[/quote]

So, sorry i didn't catch this earlier, but you don't need that <am> in täftxu.  The participle <awn> is all you need for "woven".  So, lu oe tawnäftxua 'awpo
[/quote]

Irayo, ma Ki'eyawn. 
I'll change it in my notes.  I keep all the phrases I've translated in a word file.

ta TunVrrtep



msg=347047 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-12 17:08:43 | u=195

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

esoanem

[quote author=TunVrrtep link=topic=7660.msg346420#msg346420 date=1289487171]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg346417#msg346417 date=1289486994]
[quote author=TunVrrtep link=topic=7660.msg343744#msg343744 date=1288997438]
Ok.  It's not an Idiomatic expression.  It's a Goddess chant.  But here is one of them. 

[desc=Spiraling into the center]Srerew 'ìheyu nemfa kxamtseng[/desc]
[desc=The center of our shield (repeat both lines)]Kxamtseng ayoengeyä tìhawnu (leyn)[/desc]
[desc=I am the weaver I am the woven one]Lu oe täftxuyu lu oe tawnamäftxua ‘awpo[/desc]
[desc=I am the dreamer I am the dream (repeat both lines)]Lu oe uniltu lu oe unil (leyn)[/desc]

I'm going to work on translating some of the rules of Wicca also. 

ta TunVrrtep
[/quote]

So, sorry i didn't catch this earlier, but you don't need that <am> in täftxu.  The participle <awn> is all you need for "woven".  So, lu oe tawnäftxua 'awpo
[/quote]

Irayo, ma Ki'eyawn. 
I'll change it in my notes.  I keep all the phrases I've translated in a word file.

ta TunVrrtep
[/quote]

In fact, it wouldn't be allowed, <awn> and <us> take the same position as <am> and, as there is no combined infix cannot both be used. (There's also the question of whether it would be meaningful to have participles associated with tense).



msg=347075 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-12 18:07:49 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=7660.msg347047#msg347047 date=1289581723]
[quote author=TunVrrtep link=topic=7660.msg346420#msg346420 date=1289487171]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg346417#msg346417 date=1289486994]
[quote author=TunVrrtep link=topic=7660.msg343744#msg343744 date=1288997438]
Ok.  It's not an Idiomatic expression.  It's a Goddess chant.  But here is one of them. 

[desc=Spiraling into the center]Srerew 'ìheyu nemfa kxamtseng[/desc]
[desc=The center of our shield (repeat both lines)]Kxamtseng ayoengeyä tìhawnu (leyn)[/desc]
[desc=I am the weaver I am the woven one]Lu oe täftxuyu lu oe tawnamäftxua ‘awpo[/desc]
[desc=I am the dreamer I am the dream (repeat both lines)]Lu oe uniltu lu oe unil (leyn)[/desc]

I'm going to work on translating some of the rules of Wicca also. 

ta TunVrrtep
[/quote]

So, sorry i didn't catch this earlier, but you don't need that <am> in täftxu.  The participle <awn> is all you need for "woven".  So, lu oe tawnäftxua 'awpo
[/quote]

Irayo, ma Ki'eyawn. 
I'll change it in my notes.  I keep all the phrases I've translated in a word file.

ta TunVrrtep
[/quote]

In fact, it wouldn't be allowed, <awn> and <us> take the same position as <am> and, as there is no combined infix cannot both be used. (There's also the question of whether it would be meaningful to have participles associated with tense).
[/quote]

Yes, you're absolutely correct.  Ngaytxoa, i should have made that clearer.



msg=347083 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-12 18:13:25 | u=7041

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TunVrrtep

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg347075#msg347075 date=1289585269]
[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=7660.msg347047#msg347047 date=1289581723]
[quote author=TunVrrtep link=topic=7660.msg346420#msg346420 date=1289487171]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg346417#msg346417 date=1289486994]
[quote author=TunVrrtep link=topic=7660.msg343744#msg343744 date=1288997438]
Ok.  It's not an Idiomatic expression.  It's a Goddess chant.  But here is one of them. 

[desc=Spiraling into the center]Srerew 'ìheyu nemfa kxamtseng[/desc]
[desc=The center of our shield (repeat both lines)]Kxamtseng ayoengeyä tìhawnu (leyn)[/desc]
[desc=I am the weaver I am the woven one]Lu oe täftxuyu lu oe tawnamäftxua ‘awpo[/desc]
[desc=I am the dreamer I am the dream (repeat both lines)]Lu oe uniltu lu oe unil (leyn)[/desc]

I'm going to work on translating some of the rules of Wicca also. 

ta TunVrrtep
[/quote]

So, sorry i didn't catch this earlier, but you don't need that <am> in täftxu.  The participle <awn> is all you need for "woven".  So, lu oe tawnäftxua 'awpo
[/quote]

Irayo, ma Ki'eyawn. 
I'll change it in my notes.  I keep all the phrases I've translated in a word file.

ta TunVrrtep
[/quote]

In fact, it wouldn't be allowed, <awn> and <us> take the same position as <am> and, as there is no combined infix cannot both be used. (There's also the question of whether it would be meaningful to have participles associated with tense).
[/quote]

Yes, you're absolutely correct.  Ngaytxoa, i should have made that clearer.
[/quote]

Irayo, both of you.  I was not aware of that. 
ta TunVrrtep



msg=348096 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-14 07:56:43 | u=4754

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Here are a couple of Palulukan proverbs.

The first on was worked over in another thread:

[desc=There is no problem a skyperson can have that a thanator cannot solve]Ke lu kea tìngäzìk letawtute a palulukan ke tsun zeykivo[/desc]

This one is new

[desc=They that look a thanator in the eye will soon see Eywa]Pol tsere`a palulukanit mì nari  ye`rin tsere`a Eywat[/desc]

I think there is something missing here. Perhaps something between the two obvious clauses? fula? a? But if Na`vi likes simplicity, maybe this is fine.



msg=348120 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-14 10:06:27 | u=2788

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7660.msg348096#msg348096 date=1289721403]
[desc=They that look a thanator in the eye will soon see Eywa]Pol tsere`a palulukanit mì nari  ye`rin tsere`a Eywat[/desc]

I think there is something missing here. Perhaps something between the two obvious clauses? fula? a? But if Na`vi likes simplicity, maybe this is fine.
[/quote]

My take:
Sutel a nìn palulukanä narit tsìye'a Eywat



msg=348559 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 01:56:59 | u=4375

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Binkatong

Something like this has probably already been done, but I just came up with this and thought I'd get it out there:

[desc="A rock on the tail"; a pain in the butt]Tskxe mì kxetse[/desc]


Thoughts?  :D



msg=348675 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 06:53:12 | u=4754

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7660.msg348120#msg348120 date=1289729187]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7660.msg348096#msg348096 date=1289721403]
[desc=They that look a thanator in the eye will soon see Eywa]Pol tsere`a palulukanit mì nari  ye`rin tsere`a Eywat[/desc]

I think there is something missing here. Perhaps something between the two obvious clauses? fula? a? But if Na`vi likes simplicity, maybe this is fine.
[/quote]

My take:
Sutel a nìn palulukanä narit tsìye'a Eywat
[/quote]

I realized when I read this again tonight (before looking at your post) that the first tserea means 'sees' rather than 'looks'. So, you caught my biggest error.
I had originally thought that palulukanä narit was the best wording here as well, but couldn't decide for sure whether the thanator or the thanator's eyes were the object. So, I eventually settled on the thanator itself. But I will change my mind now, and agree with you.
Finally, despite the future tense infix in tsìye`a, I think 'soon' still needs to be in the sentence, as it clarifies the meaning better. Thus:
Sutel a nìn palulukanä narit ye`rìn tsìye'a Eywat
The idea here is looking most predators in the eye (including a thanator, I assume) is considered a threat action, and a thanator will have no trouble 'neutralizing' (and having a snack at the same time) a typical Na`vi tute.

And for nìTsìng Lekinama Yayo
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Yayo link=topic=7660.msg348559#msg348559 date=1289786219]
Something like this has probably already been done, but I just came up with this and thought I'd get it out there:

[desc="A rock on the tail"; a pain in the butt]Tskxe mì kxetse[/desc]


Thoughts?  :D
[/quote]

Why not just [desc=Pain in the butt]Tìsraw mì tìm[/desc]?



msg=348696 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 08:54:16 | u=54

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Tiger

[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Yayo link=topic=7660.msg348559#msg348559 date=1289786219]
Something like this has probably already been done, but I just came up with this and thought I'd get it out there:

[desc="A rock on the tail"; a pain in the butt]Tskxe mì kxetse[/desc]


Thoughts?  :D
[/quote]I really like the way you played with the sounds there.  Those sorts of plays on sounds of words tend to be one of the sorts of things that makes idioms.  However mì is leniting so it would be "Tskxe mì ketse".  To say it the other way would be understood as "A tail on a rock", not quite the same thing.  But you could just swap the words around and get "Kxetsemì tskxe".

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7660.msg348675#msg348675 date=1289803992]
Why not just [desc=Pain in the butt]Tìsraw mì tìm[/desc]?
[/quote]Because "Pain in the butt" is an idiom - it's not literally a pain anywhere, let alone the butt, so why would the Na'vi say it like that?  Admittedly a rock on the tail does seem to be a BIT close, but it has that repeated syllable sounds going for it, and a rock on the tail could also be interpreted not so much as something causing pain, but something dragging you down, making things difficult, or whatever.



msg=348720 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 12:10:17 | u=631

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7660.msg348696#msg348696 date=1289811256]
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Yayo link=topic=7660.msg348559#msg348559 date=1289786219]
Something like this has probably already been done, but I just came up with this and thought I'd get it out there:

[desc="A rock on the tail"; a pain in the butt]Tskxe mì kxetse[/desc]


Thoughts?  :D
[/quote]I really like the way you played with the sounds there.  Those sorts of plays on sounds of words tend to be one of the sorts of things that makes idioms.  However mì is leniting so it would be "Tskxe mì ketse".  To say it the other way would be understood as "A tail on a rock", not quite the same thing.  But you could just swap the words around and get "Kxetsemì tskxe".[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Yeah, I like that a lot and I’m sure K. Pawl will too because of the sound repetition.

Am I the only one who thinks that, when it comes to idiomatic expressions, we are only creative with negative things…? ::) :P



msg=348742 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 13:37:46 | u=21

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

wm.annis

[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Yayo link=topic=7660.msg348559#msg348559 date=1289786219]
Something like this has probably already been done, but I just came up with this and thought I'd get it out there:

[desc="A rock on the tail"; a pain in the butt]Tskxe mì kxetse[/desc]

[/quote]

The adposition causes lenition, so it needs to be tskxe mì ketse.  If you love the ejectives too much :) you could go with an enclitic adposition, tskxe kxetsemì.



msg=348793 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 15:25:28 | u=430

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Yayo link=topic=7660.msg348559#msg348559 date=1289786219]
Something like this has probably already been done, but I just came up with this and thought I'd get it out there:

[desc="A rock on the tail"; a pain in the butt]Tskxe mì kxetse[/desc]


Thoughts?  :D
[/quote]
Heh, I like it. Also, as can mean on or in I, at first, translated it as "a rock in the tail". XD If you used txìm then it would have REALLY sounded painful.  ;)



msg=348805 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 15:38:58 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

Shouldn't there be an a in here somewhere?

Tskxe a kxetsemì, kefyak?



msg=348904 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 17:24:57 | u=21

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

wm.annis

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg348805#msg348805 date=1289835538]
Shouldn't there be an a in here somewhere?

Tskxe a kxetsemì, kefyak?
[/quote]

Grammatically, probably.  But idioms and set phrases tend to get worn down to the essentials.



msg=348951 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 18:29:51 | u=3552

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7660.msg348904#msg348904 date=1289841897]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7660.msg348805#msg348805 date=1289835538]
Shouldn't there be an a in here somewhere?

Tskxe a kxetsemì, kefyak?
[/quote]

Grammatically, probably.  But idioms and set phrases tend to get worn down to the essentials.
[/quote]

Point taken (wow, i typed "pint taken" the first time; guess where my head is...).

That being the case, personally i vote for the adposition disappearing altogether—simply because i think kxetse tskxe is fun to say  ;D



msg=348961 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 18:38:09 | u=631

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]*hrh*
Why does it has to be exclusively? We also have sìn or äokxetse äo tskxe is also fun to say :D not sure about tskxe sìn kxetse … latter one could be used for when somebody drags you down ;D



msg=349150 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-15 22:22:42 | u=4754

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7660.msg348961#msg348961 date=1289846289]
[font=Georgia]*hrh*
Why does it has to be exclusively? We also have sìn or äokxetse äo tskxe is also fun to say :D not sure about tskxe sìn kxetse … latter one could be used for when somebody drags you down ;D
[/quote]
To me, this makes a lot more sense for a meaning for this idiom. To equate 'a rock on the tail' with 'a pain in the butt' is a stretch. A closer equating would be a 'stone in my shoe', because a rock probably wouldn't sit on a tail long to be a constant irritant. But taken in the context mentioned here. In which case, this is pure genius. (And the rock needs to be big enough to pin the tail down, not just irritate it. Ouch!!)

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7660.msg348675#msg348675 date=1289803992]
Why not just [desc=Pain in the butt]Tìsraw mì tìm[/desc]?
[/quote]
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Yayo]
Because "Pain in the butt" is an idiom - it's not literally a pain anywhere, let alone the butt, so why would the Na'vi say it like that?  Admittedly a rock on the tail does seem to be a BIT close, but it has that repeated syllable sounds going for it, and a rock on the tail could also be interpreted not so much as something causing pain, but something dragging you down, making things difficult, or whatever.[/quote]

It is supposed to be an idiom, just like 'rock on the tail'. Its just not quite as rythmic as tskxe sìn kxetse, or the many variants discussed here. It also has a little different meaning, like a nagging inconvenicence.



msg=355699 | topic=7660 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 04:48:10 | u=6582

Re: Idiomatic Expressions

lapo lesxkxawng

From the movie, said by Neytiri in English.

NìNa'vi: [desc=When you see nothing, you wil see everything.]Krr a ke'ut ngal tse'a lu krr a fra'ut ngal kame[/desc].

NB the usage of "tse'a" and "kame" can be a bit questionable...




msg=170452 | topic=7668 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 00:05:29 | u=73

Yom ko!

Prrton


Fìtrr oeru lu aylì'u amip nìmun ta Karyu Pawl fraporu.

Txo ngar ke prrte' fwa yivom syuve lefkxen nì'aw, tsun niviä tstalit a ke lu tete nìhawng fte mivun'i ayhapxìt tsnganä leyerik ulte sat 'ivem io txep atxur. Kxawm nga kop natsew sivar txepit fte 'ivem 'uot a sìltsan hu fkxen tsngansì lu. Nemfa tsyo ta tsngal sung payit nìtam ulte 'em äo lew txo livu txopuo hufweyä. Fyape slolu ngeyä wutso?

[spoiler]If you don't like eating just veggie food, you can grab a knife that's not too dull to cut up pieces of yerik meat and cook it over a strong fire. Perhaps you'll want to use the fire to cook something that goes well with vegetables and meat. Add enough water from a cup into flour and cook under a lid if there's any fear of wind. How'd your meal turn out?[/spoiler]

[quote=Paul Frommer]syuve food N
tsngal cup N
tsngan meat N
tstal knife N
tete dull (as a blade) ADJ
tsyo flour N
lew cover, lid N[/quote]




msg=170474 | topic=7668 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 00:38:24 | u=631

Re: Yom ko!

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]txantsan!!!

Thanks so much for sharing!



msg=170501 | topic=7668 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 01:16:56 | u=0

Re: Yom ko!

Swoka Swizaw

Ayoengeyä stal kawkrr tete livu a krr lu kawng!



msg=170540 | topic=7668 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 02:32:57 | u=132

Re: Yom ko!

Taronyu

I've wanted the word for food for ages.

As for knife: I thought, in an email he sent to me, that he would go with sämune'. Surprised.



msg=170553 | topic=7668 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 03:10:03 | u=1120

Re: Yom ko!

roger

pro'bly an old word for knife from the film.

as for sä-, i get the impression that is more for abstract causation.



msg=170584 | topic=7668 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 04:45:51 | u=430

Re: Yom ko!

TehMightyPirate

A word for FOOOD! Glorious, glorious food!!! Now we can order food in Na'vi. All we need is how to ask for the bathroom and we're all set to go to Pandora with a book of common phrases.



msg=170587 | topic=7668 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 04:56:38 | u=73

Re: Yom ko!

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=7668.msg170553#msg170553 date=1270177803]
pro'bly an old word for knife from the film.

as for sä-, i get the impression that is more for abstract causation.
[/quote]

Mllte oe.



msg=170589 | topic=7668 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 05:05:48 | u=73

Re: Yom ko!

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7668.msg170584#msg170584 date=1270183551]
...All we need is how to ask for the bathroom and we're all set to go to Pandora with a book of common phrases.
[/quote]

Na'rìng lu peseng? (ulte kxawm tsun tivel oel pxerìkit ta tsengo srak?) ;)



msg=170643 | topic=7668 | board=99 | time=2010-04-02 06:39:15 | u=2541

Re: Yom ko!

Lrrtoksì nìhawng

Txantsan! I know what my vocab for the week is. Now if we can get words for "egg" and "sugar" the Na'vi fortune cookie recipe is going out! And I can waste even more time writing Na'vi fortunes. The sci-fi club bake sale will never be the same again. ;D



msg=171539 | topic=7716 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 05:33:54 | u=73

Stxo a vay set lu ke awnomum

Prrton

Fwäkì, yayo, zize’ a pxeswiräri mepo yaìlä twsayon ulte mepo nì’aw lu hì’ang. Rìk, prrwll, spxam a pxesat run fkol sìn utral ulte lu ’u a’aw a lu hapxì utralä ulte ’u a’aw keng ke lu ’ewll angay. Peseng tsun rivun fkol payoangit? ’U a’aw law lu nìwotx. Mì satseng layu pay pxel payfya fu txampay nìteng.

[spoiler]Of the mantis, bird, and hellfire wasp, two of these three creatures fly through the air and only two are insects. As for the leaf, moss, and fungus, these three things are found on trees, but only one is a part of the tree and one is not even a real plant. Where can one find the fish? One thing is for sure. There will be water there as in either a stream or ocean.[/spoiler]

[quote=Paul Frommer]fwä mantis (n.)
’ang insect (n.)
payoang fish (n.)
yayo bird (n.)
zize’ hellfire wasp (n.)
prrwll moss (n.)
rìk leaf (n.)
spxam fungus (n.)
’ewll plant (n.)[/quote]

Correction: The glottal stop in hì’ang is on the ’ANG, but the stress is on the . Now correct above too.



msg=171583 | topic=7716 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 09:11:50 | u=132

Re: Stxo a vay set lu ke awnomum

Taronyu

Mantis is cool. I wonder if it has the greek sense as well - eh, annis?

As for birds - I thought we were fairly certain that there are no birds on Pandora. Does PF know something that we don't?



msg=171600 | topic=7716 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 10:15:51 | u=631

Re: Stxo a vay set lu ke awnomum

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing, ma Prrton. :)

Are the texts that are placed along the new vocabulary recently from all of you or Frommer's?

ioang - payoang - hì'ang => is there a new root there with which we could do something? *(o)ang = animal of some kind?


[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7716.msg171583#msg171583 date=1270285910]
As for birds - I thought we were fairly certain that there are no birds on Pandora. Does PF know something that we don't?[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Well, the Ikran lays eggs, flies and has an inner bone structure (as opposed to the chitin skeleton of an insect) - doesn't that count as a bird?
What about the smaller ones that Jake and Norm see on their first flight over the water?



msg=171602 | topic=7716 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 10:22:47 | u=54

Re: Stxo a vay set lu ke awnomum

Tiger

I am thinking that "ioang" is the root for all of the oang words, just shortened.



msg=171722 | topic=7716 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 13:39:39 | u=0

Re: Stxo a vay set lu ke awnomum

Swoka Swizaw

Hellfire wasp...never saw that one before. Quite a strange-looking bug.



msg=171932 | topic=7716 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 17:24:16 | u=3552

Re: Stxo a vay set lu ke awnomum

tigermind

Do you think yayo is a contraction of ya-ioang as well, ma smuk?



msg=171955 | topic=7716 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 17:44:39 | u=1120

Re: Stxo a vay set lu ke awnomum

roger

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7716.msg171932#msg171932 date=1270315456]
Do you think yayo is a contraction of ya-ioang as well, ma smuk?
[/quote]

Wow, I didn't see that. Very possibly! If so, maybe it does include banshees and stingbats - and maybe wasps too.



msg=171863 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 15:59:37 | u=132

Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Taronyu

Tse, lahea trr a oel fpamìl san lìyevu prrte' sì mowan fko a ngolop Na'viyä aylì'uä kelkut sìk. 'änsyema puk mì fìlì'fya ke keteng layu, tatlam, slä teng layu na Ìnglìsìmì fko. Fìkem skxakep tìprrte' layu! Ha, na krr a oe lu numtsengmì, tsere'a ke ftära pa'or sì ke skiena pa'or, oe sngä'i. Oel, eylanhu, leykolatem hemlì'ut sì stxolì'ut, sì fralì'ut lì'uä kelkumì. Slä tewti! Wotx fkoä lamu ftue ke - slä frakrr fko mowan lu, ulte kawkrr vä'.

[spoiler]Well, the other day I thought: "It would be pleasurable and pleasing to make a Na'vi Language dictionary. A complete book in this language would not be different, apparently, but it would be the same as in English. This probably would be a pleasure!" So, as when I was in school, looking neither to the left side nor to the right side, I began. I, with friends, changed verbs and nouns, and all the words in the word-hoard. But wow! The whole of it was not easy - but always it was pleasurable, and never unpleasant.[/spoiler]

\


msg=171868 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 16:06:12 | u=1975

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Ean Tirea

Txantsan ma Taronyu!! Nawma fmawn leiu fwa lu awngar faylì'u amip! :)



msg=171935 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 17:27:40 | u=3552

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

tigermind

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7731.msg171863#msg171863 date=1270310377]


\


msg=171952 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 17:42:52 | u=1120

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

roger

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7731.msg171935#msg171935 date=1270315660]
And are mowan and vä' opposites, then?
[/quote]

I would think vä' and lor are more likely opposites.



msg=171964 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 17:51:33 | u=3552

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

tigermind

[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg171952#msg171952 date=1270316572]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7731.msg171935#msg171935 date=1270315660]
And are mowan and vä' opposites, then?
[/quote]

I would think vä' and lor are more likely opposites.
[/quote]


Really?  Hmm... Seems strange to me, but okay.

And one more question: is it 'änsyem or 'ängsyem, ma smuk?  Oel tse'a faylì'ut amune 'upxaremì Taronyuä 



msg=171997 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 18:21:16 | u=631

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]txantsan!

Thanks for sharing - I take it these words are from Frommer?
May I suggest a [desc=like the others did in recent posts]spoiler[/desc] for those of us in the community who are not that used to a longer text in Na'vi?


[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7731.msg171863#msg171863 date=1270310377]Ha, na krr a oe lu numtsengmì, tsere'a ke ftära pa'or sì ke skiena pa'or, oe sngä'i.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Shouldn't that be oel tok numtsengit ?



msg=172023 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 18:48:39 | u=1120

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

roger

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7731.msg171997#msg171997 date=1270318876]
[font=Garamond]txantsan!

Thanks for sharing - I take it these words are from Frommer?
May I suggest a [desc=like the others did in recent posts]spoiler[/desc] for those of us in the community who are not that used to a longer text in Na'vi?


[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7731.msg171863#msg171863 date=1270310377]Ha, na krr a oe lu numtsengmì, tsere'a ke ftära pa'or sì ke skiena pa'or, oe sngä'i.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Shouldn't that be oel tok numtsengit ?
[/quote]

Yeah, they're all Frommerian.

Interesting question about "be". If I had to guess, I'd think it might be "I'm at school" vs "I'm in school", but I'm probably wrong.



msg=172028 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 18:55:23 | u=132

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Taronyu

Will include a spoiler tonight. And answer these questions. Sorry, pressed for time right now.



msg=172042 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 19:08:51 | u=631

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Plumps83

[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172023#msg172023 date=1270320519]
Yeah, they're all Frommerian.

Interesting question about "be". If I had to guess, I'd think it might be "I'm at school" vs "I'm in school", but I'm probably wrong. [/quote]

[font=Garamond]But that would make for an interesting semantic puzzle ... I took Frommer's sample sentence "Yesterday I was with Tewì in the forest..." There we had oel talmok na'rìngit (AFAIK)
But it makes a difference whether I'm in the forest or at the forest ... does the same hold true for in school and at school?



msg=172049 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 19:12:22 | u=1120

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

roger

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7731.msg172042#msg172042 date=1270321731]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172023#msg172023 date=1270320519]
Yeah, they're all Frommerian.

Interesting question about "be". If I had to guess, I'd think it might be "I'm at school" vs "I'm in school", but I'm probably wrong. [/quote]

[font=Garamond]But that would make for an interesting semantic puzzle ... I took Frommer's sample sentence "Yesterday I was with Tewì in the forest..." There we had oel talmok na'rìngit (AFAIK)
But it makes a difference whether I'm in the forest or at the forest ... does the same hold true for in school and at school?

[/quote]

The difference between in and at school is whether you're enrolled in school or physically present at the school. "Tok" might mean physically present; on the other hand, I don't think you could use "in" if you're not "in".



msg=172050 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 19:15:03 | u=971

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

marger

Isn't the main difference between "tok" and "lu" is that we should use "tok" when speaking about places?
This would settle the problem... but i could miss something, so please tell me if i had...



msg=172067 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 19:44:57 | u=1120

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

roger

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7731.msg171964#msg171964 date=1270317093]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg171952#msg171952 date=1270316572]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7731.msg171935#msg171935 date=1270315660]
And are mowan and vä' opposites, then?
[/quote]

I would think vä' and lor are more likely opposites.
[/quote]

Really?  Hmm... Seems strange to me, but okay.

And one more question: is it 'änsyem or 'ängsyem, ma smuk?  Oel tse'a faylì'ut amune 'upxaremì Taronyuä 
[/quote]

The list is correct. Typo in the text above it.

Lor is "pleasant to the senses", vä' "unpleasant to the senses", so I take them as antonyms. Pretty vs. ugly for sights & sounds, good vs. yucky for taste, beautiful vs. foul for smell, etc. We don't have good equivalents for these for touch in English.



msg=172069 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 19:46:10 | u=1120

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

roger

[quote author=Hawnuyu atxen link=topic=7731.msg172050#msg172050 date=1270322103]
Isn't the main difference between "tok" and "lu" is that we should use "tok" when speaking about places?
This would settle the problem... but i could miss something, so please tell me if i had...
[/quote]

Nice idea, but lu + adp. is used all the time for place.



msg=172072 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 19:48:20 | u=971

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

marger

Oh, irayo, i didn't know that...
It certainly did worth a try ;)



msg=172087 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 20:05:25 | u=54

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172069#msg172069 date=1270323970]
[quote author=Hawnuyu atxen link=topic=7731.msg172050#msg172050 date=1270322103]
Isn't the main difference between "tok" and "lu" is that we should use "tok" when speaking about places?
This would settle the problem... but i could miss something, so please tell me if i had...
[/quote]

Nice idea, but lu + adp. is used all the time for place.
[/quote]Do we have corpus examples of that?  Off the top of my head all I can think of is "Fayvrrtep fìtsenge lu kxanì" which isn't using it in any way that tok would make sense because it's describing a state of this place rather than a location of something.



msg=172089 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 20:08:30 | u=0

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Swoka Swizaw

Well, this is the most unexpectedly complex set of new words we've ever received. This proves that Frommer has been a busy tutan lelì'fya over the last 5 years. The lexicon must be huge.

And do I see the first adverb not derived by "nì-?"



msg=172094 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 20:13:56 | u=1120

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7731.msg172087#msg172087 date=1270325125]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172069#msg172069 date=1270323970]
[quote author=Hawnuyu atxen link=topic=7731.msg172050#msg172050 date=1270322103]
Isn't the main difference between "tok" and "lu" is that we should use "tok" when speaking about places?
This would settle the problem... but i could miss something, so please tell me if i had...
[/quote]

Nice idea, but lu + adp. is used all the time for place.
[/quote]Do we have corpus examples of that?  Off the top of my head all I can think of is "Fayvrrtep fìtsenge lu kxanì" which isn't using it in any way that tok would make sense because it's describing a state of this place rather than a location of something.
[/quote]

   Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na’vi set fìfya pivlltxe!
   "I didn't think that there was anyone who could speak Na’vi like this!"

   Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.
   "There’s nobody I’d rather commune with under the Tree of Voices"

   Eo ayoeng lu txana tìkawng.
   A great evil is upon us.

Now, all of these are BE in the sense of "there is, there are", which is also how 'have' works. It's possible that when we want to be more specific than just "there is", we should use 'tok', but what's the diff tween tìkawg lu ayoengeo and oe lu numcegmì ?



msg=172105 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 20:23:28 | u=3552

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

tigermind

[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172067#msg172067 date=1270323897]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7731.msg171964#msg171964 date=1270317093]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg171952#msg171952 date=1270316572]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7731.msg171935#msg171935 date=1270315660]
And are mowan and vä' opposites, then?
[/quote]

I would think vä' and lor are more likely opposites.
[/quote]

Really?  Hmm... Seems strange to me, but okay.

And one more question: is it 'änsyem or 'ängsyem, ma smuk?  Oel tse'a faylì'ut amune 'upxaremì Taronyuä 
[/quote]

The list is correct. Typo in the text above it.

Lor is "pleasant to the senses", vä' "unpleasant to the senses", so I take them as antonyms. Pretty vs. ugly for sights & sounds, good vs. yucky for taste, beautiful vs. foul for smell, etc. We don't have good equivalents for these for touch in English.
[/quote]

Tam. Irayo, ma tsmukan.



msg=172114 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 20:28:01 | u=21

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

wm.annis

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7731.msg172089#msg172089 date=1270325310]And do I see the first adverb not derived by "nì-?"[/quote]

No, no, we have plenty of those: set, fìtxan, pehrr.  I suspect tatlam is a slightly squished prepositional phrase — ta tìlam — that turned into its own word by regular use.



msg=172117 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 20:30:43 | u=54

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Tiger

Let me get my red marker... :D

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7731.msg171863#msg171863 date=1270310377]
Tse, [desc=I know you love your derivations, but la- as a prefix is not attested (See posts below)]latrr[/desc] a oel [desc=I don't know if the reflexive can be used in cases where you are the subject and indirect object]fpäpìl[/desc] san [desc=lìyevu or liyevu, which both mean the same thing.  There is no proximate or general future subjunctive.]layevu[/desc] prrte' sì mowan [desc=Might need fkoru here if I understand what you said]fko[/desc] a ngolop Na'viyä aylì'uä kelkut sìk. 'ängsyema puk mì fìlì'fya ke keteng layu, tatlam, slä teng layu na Ìnglìsìmì fko. Fìkem skxakep tìprrte' layu! Ha, na krr a oe lu numtsengmì, tsere'a ke ftära pa'or sì ke skiena pa'or, oe sngä'i. [desc=You do not need to repeat this, but it is not wrong either]Oel[/desc], eylanhu, [desc=This is actually intransitive, you need leykolatem]lolatem[/desc] hemlì'ut sì stxolì'ut, sì fralì'ut lì'uä kelkumì. Slä [desc=Apparently this is only used with nìtxan]nang[/desc]! Wotx fkoä lamu ftue ke - slä frakrr fko mowan lu, ulte kawkrr vä'.

...

Ayngaru tìprrte livu [desc=I am not sure this makes sense like this]talun faylì'u[/desc]! :)

[/quote]



msg=172127 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 20:37:07 | u=54

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172094#msg172094 date=1270325636]
   Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na’vi set fìfya pivlltxe!
   "I didn't think that there was anyone who could speak Na’vi like this!"

   Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.
   "There’s nobody I’d rather commune with under the Tree of Voices"

   Eo ayoeng lu txana tìkawng.
   A great evil is upon us.

Now, all of these are BE in the sense of "there is, there are", which is also how 'have' works. It's possible that when we want to be more specific than just "there is", we should use 'tok', but what's the diff tween tìkawg lu ayoengeo and oe lu numcegmì ?
[/quote]Errr... None of those are describing location directly.  The first strikes me as VERy idiomatic to English saying "There is".  What it's saying is that "I didn't think that a person existed who could speak Na'vi like this", talking about existence not location.  The second is purely being used descriptively as where something would occur, not really talking about the location of something directly.  It's also not being at something, but being under something.  (I wonder how you would say "He is under the tree" though...  Would be pe "Po äo utral lu" or "Po äo utral tok"...)  The last is again not location.  We describe it in terms of location in English (It's here / it's on us) but that's purely an analogy to something more conceptual.



msg=172133 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 20:43:53 | u=631

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7731.msg172117#msg172117 date=1270326643]
Let me get my red marker... :D

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7731.msg171863#msg171863 date=1270310377]
Tse, [desc=You mean letrr?  If so, are you telling me you got your own word wrong?]latrr[/desc] a oel [desc=I don't know if the reflexive can be used in cases where you are the subject and indirect object]fpäpìl[/desc] […] Fìkem skxakep tìprrte' layu! Ha, na krr a oe lu numtsengmì, tsere'a ke ftära [desc=What is this?]pa'or[/desc] sì ke skiena pa'or, oe sngä'i. […]
...
Ayngaru tìprrte livu [desc=I am not sure this makes sense like this]talun faylì'u[/desc]! :)[/quote][/quote]

[font=Garamond]latrr => I think, Taronyu meant "the other day" ;)
pa'or => dative of pa'o side ?



msg=172137 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 20:47:01 | u=54

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Tiger

Wow, I missed pa'o in my compiling a list of words, don't know how that happened.  Using la- as a general prefix isn't really attested at this point.  The "correct" way would be "trr alahe", but then again it's a common enough expression that it wouldn't be surprising for a shortened form to appear even if la- isn't a general prefix.



msg=172176 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 21:19:09 | u=631

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Apart from "the other day" being an idiomatic expression, if I'm not mistaken. In German it's "letztens" or "neulich" - "the other day" in German literally means "(I mean) not this day but the other day (when we did somthing)"

But I agree with you that lahe could be shortened like in aylaru < aylaheru



msg=172182 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 21:24:58 | u=1120

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7731.msg172127#msg172127 date=1270327027]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172094#msg172094 date=1270325636]
   Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na’vi set fìfya pivlltxe!
   "I didn't think that there was anyone who could speak Na’vi like this!"

   Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.
   "There’s nobody I’d rather commune with under the Tree of Voices"

   Eo ayoeng lu txana tìkawng.
   A great evil is upon us.

Now, all of these are BE in the sense of "there is, there are", which is also how 'have' works. It's possible that when we want to be more specific than just "there is", we should use 'tok', but what's the diff tween tìkawg lu ayoengeo and oe lu numcegmì ?
[/quote]Errr... None of those are describing location directly.  The first strikes me as VERy idiomatic to English saying "There is".  What it's saying is that "I didn't think that a person existed who could speak Na'vi like this", talking about existence not location.  The second is purely being used descriptively as where something would occur, not really talking about the location of something directly.  It's also not being at something, but being under something.  (I wonder how you would say "He is under the tree" though...  Would be pe "Po äo utral lu" or "Po äo utral tok"...)  The last is again not location.  We describe it in terms of location in English (It's here / it's on us) but that's purely an analogy to something more conceptual.
[/quote]

So tìkawg lu eo ayoeng would be "there is an evil before us" and tute lu mì numceg "there is a person in the school" -- what is the difference exactly?

But you may be right: 'lu' is only generic place (there is an evil before us) whereas 'tok' might be required for specific location (my car is in the shop). Hard to say.



msg=172203 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 21:43:51 | u=54

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Tiger

See my comment about "He is under the tree".  In cases where it's not just a simple locative "at", it is unclear if there is a difference between lu and tok.  (And even when it is "at", what about "lu ro X rather than tok?)  Though I'd think "lu" would be more in the sense of "Lu sanhì mì taw" - stars exist in the sky...  The existance just is there, it's not like the stars would be anywhere else in that case.  Whereas a person who climbed a tree would be "Tute mì utral tok" - that is where their location right now, not their place of existance.  But maybe that's splitting hairs a bit too fine.



msg=172212 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 21:49:39 | u=631

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Nonsense about tìmun'i nikreyä ;)

This is exactly what needs to be cleared. Maybe this is one more question for the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/]Combining Our Efford II [/url]list.
Because in your last example that would mean that tok gives up its transitivity...



msg=172218 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 21:54:08 | u=73

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172182#msg172182 date=1270329898]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7731.msg172127#msg172127 date=1270327027]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172094#msg172094 date=1270325636]
   Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na’vi set fìfya pivlltxe!
   "I didn't think that there was anyone who could speak Na’vi like this!"

   Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.
   "There’s nobody I’d rather commune with under the Tree of Voices"

   Eo ayoeng lu txana tìkawng.
   A great evil is upon us.

Now, all of these are BE in the sense of "there is, there are", which is also how 'have' works. It's possible that when we want to be more specific than just "there is", we should use 'tok', but what's the diff tween tìkawg lu ayoengeo and oe lu numcegmì ?
[/quote]Errr... None of those are describing location directly.  The first strikes me as VERy idiomatic to English saying "There is".  What it's saying is that "I didn't think that a person existed who could speak Na'vi like this", talking about existence not location.  The second is purely being used descriptively as where something would occur, not really talking about the location of something directly.  It's also not being at something, but being under something.  (I wonder how you would say "He is under the tree" though...  Would be pe "Po äo utral lu" or "Po äo utral tok"...)  The last is again not location.  We describe it in terms of location in English (It's here / it's on us) but that's purely an analogy to something more conceptual.
[/quote]

So tìkawg lu eo ayoeng would be "there is an evil before us" and tute lu mì numceg "there is a person in the school" -- what is the difference exactly?

But you may be right: 'lu' is only generic place (there is an evil before us) whereas 'tok' might be required for specific location (my car is in the shop). Hard to say.
[/quote]

OK. I feel compelled to throw in my two cents.

I think I agree MORE with what tsmuk omängum fra'uti is saying. And more or less with roger's last musing...

I believe and (try to) use LU and TOK per the following:

LU covers the English semantic range for there is/are and to be (a noun or an adjective)
TOK covers the English semantic range for to be located at/in/on a place taking up space.

LU covers the Spanish semantic range for HAY and SER
TOK covers the Spanish semantic range for ESTAR

LU covers the Mandarin semantic range for 要 (you) and 是 (shi) (basically the same as Spanish)
TOK cover the Mandarin semantic range for 在 (zai) (basically the same as Spanish)

LU covers the Thai semantic range for MII and BPEN (basically the same as Spanish and Mandarin)
TOK covers the Thai semantic range for YUU (basically the same as Spanish)

I hope this won't hurt sales, but...

When the "oe lu hu skxawng" shirt first appeared (or I should say when I saw it advertised, maybe a day later) I dashed off a mail to Seabass pointing out that TO ME it reads "I am (in a serious (likely mated pair) relationship) with the adjacent moron." I suggested that if the point were to stand by a buddy in a bar and laugh about it, the text would more SAFELY read "oe tok hu skxawng" (meaning "I happen to be here ((now) physically present and taking up space (hanging out on a man date)) with the adjacent moron."

Apparently, it had already "gone to press."

Anyway. This is how I see it:

Oeru LU eylan apxay. LU suteo a TOK mì Yu.E.Sey ulte LU 'ewana aynumeyu, ulte kop (LU) suteo alahe a TOK mì frakllpxìltu kifkeyka ulte ke LU 'ewan nìwotx.

THERE ARE many friends to me (= I have many friends). THERE ARE some who ARE in the USA and ARE young students, and (THERE ARE) also some others who ARE in all other territories across the globe who ARE not young at all.

I think that in general (statistically) speaking TOK plays a less vital role than LU in the language. I do think that it is for PEOPLE/THINGS that are physically taking up space at a stated location [optionally: (for a limited/specific scope of time)].

I feel we'll need LOTS of negative examples (Rä'ä tsat txula nìfìfya a sìkenong) from K. Pawl to grasp this completely (and there could be a rather big gray area) unlike Spanish in which things are pretty clearly right and wrong when it comes to SER vs. ESTAR.

PS: in the example above the VERB in the English ends up being artificially over-repeated to show the relationship to the Na'vi, but cause in Na'vi it gets stated over and over again because it changes back and forth from LU to TOK to LU again...



msg=172220 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 21:54:47 | u=1120

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7731.msg172203#msg172203 date=1270331031]
See my comment about "He is under the tree".  In cases where it's not just a simple locative "at", it is unclear if there is a difference between lu and tok.  (And even when it is "at", what about "lu ro X rather than tok?)  Though I'd think "lu" would be more in the sense of "Lu sanhì mì taw" - stars exist in the sky...  The existance just is there, it's not like the stars would be anywhere else in that case.  Whereas a person who climbed a tree would be "Tute mì utral tok" - that is where their location right now, not their place of existance.  But maybe that's splitting hairs a bit too fine.
[/quote]

That seems reasonable, but we don't have an example of "is under the tree", only "commune under the tree". As just noted, you can't have tok äo utral, but only tok utralit. If you wanted "under the tree" with tok, I expect it would have to be s.t. like ?tok äopat utralä or tok tseget a äo utral.



msg=172224 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 22:00:29 | u=73

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=7731.msg172220#msg172220 date=1270331687]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7731.msg172203#msg172203 date=1270331031]
See my comment about "He is under the tree".  In cases where it's not just a simple locative "at", it is unclear if there is a difference between lu and tok.  (And even when it is "at", what about "lu ro X rather than tok?)  Though I'd think "lu" would be more in the sense of "Lu sanhì mì taw" - stars exist in the sky...  The existance just is there, it's not like the stars would be anywhere else in that case.  Whereas a person who climbed a tree would be "Tute mì utral tok" - that is where their location right now, not their place of existance.  But maybe that's splitting hairs a bit too fine.
[/quote]

That seems reasonable, but we don't have an example of "is under the tree", only "commune under the tree". As just noted, you can't have tok äo utral, but only tok utralit. If you wanted "under the tree" with tok, I expect it would have to be s.t. like ?tok äopat utralä.
[/quote]

Where did ERG/ACC come from for TOK? Is that canonical?

Sorry if I missed something.



msg=172228 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 22:02:57 | u=21

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7731.msg172224#msg172224 date=1270332029]Where ERG/ACC come from for TOK? Is that canonical?[/quote]

Yes, tok [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/a-collection/]is transitive[/url], so must use erg/acc.



msg=172231 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 22:08:02 | u=54

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Tiger

It's official, I don't think any of us are completely up on all the latest Na'vi.  The other day William asked a question that was answered in the corpus, I missed a word (Despite having replied to the post where the word was presented) and now Prrton missed the transitivity of tok.



msg=172233 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 22:08:58 | u=1120

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

roger

If 'lu' cannot function as to be in a place, then we should ask how to say "[noun] is [prep] [location]". Do we need a relative clause for that?



msg=172235 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 22:10:09 | u=631

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]That's what I suggested a few posts above ;)



msg=172237 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 22:12:29 | u=54

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Tiger

I thought about "Tutel tok tsenget a mì utral" which, besides being a bit clumsy, would really be a short form of "Tutel tok tsenget a lu mì utral" - which then uses "lu" to avoid using "lu".  But yes, definitely a question to ask.  Probably rather high priority as well considering how common of a thing it is to say that you are near/in/under/on/etc a place.

But if "lu" + adp can be used, then why have "tok" at all if you could just say "lu ro"?



msg=172257 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 23:01:21 | u=132

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Taronyu

@Tigermind: I mean probable: you're right. I also assume that mowan and vä' are opposites - I think that vä' would hold the english definition "noisome". It is 'änsyem, not 'ängsyem.

@omängum fra'uti - thanks for the red marker, I really appreciate it. I fixed some of the things, notably la-, which I like, but people don't want to stand behind, yet, jsut as fay+, I think. I didn't change lu + adp., because I didn't mean physical existence, but rather the time when I was enrolled, at which I didn't have to actually be in the school. I think that this works fine. I fixed some of the other errors - I hadn't realised latem was intransitive. You're right, none of us are 100%. I don't think I'm as bad as you think I am with grammar, though. I'm just a bit more liberal. ;).

:) I like these words.



msg=172277 | topic=7731 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 23:46:58 | u=73

Re: Mipa Aylì'u Teri Tusäftxua Fìlì'fya!

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7731.msg172228#msg172228 date=1270332177]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7731.msg172224#msg172224 date=1270332029]Where ERG/ACC come from for TOK? Is that canonical?[/quote]

Yes, tok [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/a-collection/]is transitive[/url], so must use erg/acc.
[/quote]

THANK YOU!

I actually am SHOCKED that I missed it, but seeing the timeframe of when it came in part of the mystery is solved. When I "came back" from work, I just didn't look far enough back in the updates.

And we DO have "back". TXAL. Cool.

So I'm assuming then that we have to find something to -t and then hang stuff around that, and things will be VERY gray in terms of LU vs. TOK compared to most of the other semantic precedents that >>> I <<< know. BUT, that's what makes it fun!  ;D



msg=174572 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 07:29:53 | u=73

Ke... kaw'it.

Prrton

For the phrase:

I have many friends. There are some who are in the USA and are young students, and also some others who are in all other territories of the world who are not young at all.

K. Pawl gave this in Na'vi:

[quote=Paul Frommer:]Oeru lu eylan apxay. Lu suteo a tok Yu.E.Seyti ulte lu 'ewana aynumeyu, ulte kop suteo alahe a tok frakllpxìltut kifkeyä ulte ke lu 'ewan kaw'it.

[ke . . . kaw'it: 'not . . . at all']

(Note, by the way, that the stress in {kaw'it} is on the second syllable: kaw'IT.)

[/quote]

The main reason I'm posting this is to show the new way to say "NO.... AT ALL" but here is a way to contrast LU with TOK and see the accusative impact of TOK on the PLACE that TOK references. Note that in simple sentences the subject of TOK («sute.o») would also take the ergative case («-l»), but here all of the grammar related to TOK is happening in clauses, so the role of «sute.o» in the bigger picture of the sentence (OUTSIDE of the clauses) drives the case marking.

to-me THERE ARE (LU) friends (short plural of 'eylan) many. THERE ARE (LU) some-people (short plural of tute+o (indefinite marker) who ARE-IN/OCCUPY (TOK) the USA-ACC and ARE (LU) young learners, and also some-people others who ARE-IN/OCCUPY (TOK) all-territories-ACC of-the-world and NOT ARE (LU) young AT ALL.

The second example for which he particularly liked the feeling of the idiomatic translation is:

  POAN pak!? KE lu po tsamsiyu kaw'IT!

  HIM!? There's not a warrior's bone in his whole body!

So it can be used to add emphasis with any phrases that uses KE+LU to form a negatively framed description of something/someone. It could also be used with an adjective of negative meaning to say something very NICE.



msg=174575 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 07:41:43 | u=1225

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

neotrekkerz

Any news on whether it can modify other verbs?

EX:  Oe ke tul kaw'it  I don't run at all



msg=174650 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 11:17:28 | u=1975

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Ean Tirea

well imo, "ke.....kaw'it" LITERALLY means "not.......,not-one-bit"

I would expect that we could use this construction the same we do in English, since its meaning is pretty much exactly the same as our "not one bit"

but of course, "not one bit" DOES very well seem to much better fit "noun ke lu adj kaw'it" and "noun ke lu noun kaw'it" constructions than "noun ke verb kaw'it"

It just seemed to me that ke and kaw'it are adverbs, so maybe they could work on all verbs?:

He walks. (sraight and simple.)

He walks not. (how does he walk? NOT. he doesn't walk.)

He walks not one bit. (how does he walk? not one bit. he definately does not walk.)

this is what an adverb does, and I have a hunch that ke kaw'it should work on all verbs.

but seeing as how many places Na'vi is different from English, I have no solid ground to stand on here.



msg=174765 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 13:03:59 | u=3552

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

tigermind

So far, a lot of these negations he's given us remind me of French.

Ke...kawtu => ne...personne
Ke...ke'u => ne...rien

And now this one seems to be like ne...pas du tout—the original negation (ne...pas) with some emphasis thrown on (du tout)

Srak?



msg=174788 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 13:28:25 | u=1975

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Ean Tirea

oui/sran. I agree. it does seem to be that way.



msg=174828 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 14:21:46 | u=631

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Plumps83

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7824.msg174765#msg174765 date=1270559039]
Ke...kawtu => ne...personne
Ke...ke'u => ne...rien[/quote]

[font=Garamond]I’ve seen ke … kawkrr but those two never. Do you have canon phrases or can give me a link to a message from Frommer in which he mentions those? irayo :)
oel tsole’a san ke … kawkrr sìk slä mefoti kawkrr. oeru nga tsun wivìntxu ’upxaret Karyu Pawlä krr a pol serar tsayut? irayo



msg=174854 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 14:48:37 | u=1975

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Ean Tirea

I like how you post in 'Ìnglìsì and then translate for the Na'vi. :D

EDIT: It is SO FRESH, the email hasnt even made it to the wiki canon yet...XD



msg=174893 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 15:17:54 | u=430

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

TehMightyPirate

Woohoo, I'm finally understanding why things work the way they work. This is really helpful.

I too like the phrase as well, I'll have to try to remember that one.



msg=175025 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 17:11:01 | u=3552

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

tigermind

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7824.msg174828#msg174828 date=1270563706]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7824.msg174765#msg174765 date=1270559039]
Ke...kawtu => ne...personne
Ke...ke'u => ne...rien[/quote]

[font=Garamond]I’ve seen ke … kawkrr but those two never. Do you have canon phrases or can give me a link to a message from Frommer in which he mentions those? irayo :)
oel tsole’a san ke … kawkrr sìk slä mefoti kawkrr. oeru nga tsun wivìntxu ’upxaret Karyu Pawlä krr a pol serar tsayut? irayo

[/quote]

Hmm... let me do a little digging, ma 'eylan, and i'll see what i can find.

Edit:  Okay, straight from Karyu Pawl, we have

Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.
There's nobody I'd rather commune with under the Tree of Voices.
From [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Corpus#Lemondrop.com]here[/url]

And,

Poltxe oe, san zene ke uniltìranyu ke’u ziva’u fìtseng.
I have said, 'No avatar may come here.'



msg=175055 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 17:38:09 | u=1975

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Ean Tirea

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7824.msg175025#msg175025 date=1270573861]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7824.msg174828#msg174828 date=1270563706]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7824.msg174765#msg174765 date=1270559039]
Ke...kawtu => ne...personne
Ke...ke'u => ne...rien[/quote]

[font=Garamond]I’ve seen ke … kawkrr but those two never. Do you have canon phrases or can give me a link to a message from Frommer in which he mentions those? irayo :)
oel tsole’a san ke … kawkrr sìk slä mefoti kawkrr. oeru nga tsun wivìntxu ’upxaret Karyu Pawlä krr a pol serar tsayut? irayo

[/quote]

Hmm... let me do a little digging, ma 'eylan, and i'll see what i can find.

Edit:  Okay, straight from Karyu Pawl, we have

Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.
There's nobody I'd rather commune with under the Tree of Voices.
From [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Corpus#Lemondrop.com]here[/url]

And,

Poltxe oe, san zene ke uniltìranyu ke’u ziva’u fìtseng.
I have said, 'No avatar may come here.'
[/quote]


now THAT is interesting. :D (we NEED a Na'vi word for interesting!!!)



msg=175064 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 17:43:35 | u=631

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]ngaru tìyawr - irayo, ma tigermind!
I totally forgot about Eytukan's line from the movie … although I had a look at the movie lines in the wiki just yesterday *skxawng* ;)
Thanks again. So, you're right - there is a pattern there. Good to know.

ma tirea aean,
YES, we do! :)



msg=175067 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 17:44:41 | u=73

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Prrton

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7824.msg174575#msg174575 date=1270539703]
Any news on whether it can modify other verbs?

EX:  Oe ke tul kaw'it  I don't run at all
[/quote]

I haven't asked specifically, but it seems perfectly viable. I'm personally willing to use it with "action verbs" like this.



msg=175069 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 17:45:55 | u=1975

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Ean Tirea

I would. it doesnt seem to be breaking any rule that I know of.



msg=175077 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 17:51:44 | u=1225

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

neotrekkerz

Yeah, I thought it would work too.  The message just seemed so focused on lu/tok, I thought it prudent to at least ask.



msg=175378 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 21:40:27 | u=21

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

wm.annis

Most interesting to me is frakllpxìltut.  This is the first confirmation I've seen that fra- is a productive prefix, one of several I'm starting to call pre-nouns (not pronouns).



msg=175461 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:22:31 | u=1120

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

roger

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7824.msg175378#msg175378 date=1270590027]
Most interesting to me is frakllpxìltut.  This is the first confirmation I've seen that fra- is a productive prefix, one of several I'm starting to call pre-nouns (not pronouns).
[/quote]

I think that was a word Prrton made up which Paul accepted, wasn't it?



msg=175568 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 04:09:46 | u=73

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=7824.msg175461#msg175461 date=1270596151]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7824.msg175378#msg175378 date=1270590027]
Most interesting to me is frakllpxìltut.  This is the first confirmation I've seen that fra- is a productive prefix, one of several I'm starting to call pre-nouns (not pronouns).
[/quote]

I think that was a word Prrton made up which Paul accepted, wasn't it?
[/quote]

I guess so. That's a fair way to describe it. I swear that I didn't do it sneakretively. I didn't even think about it.

Hmmm...

Now that I do think about it, it seems that I have a strong sense of «kllpxìltu» being classified as/conceptually tied to «tseng(e)», so that probably explains why I did it in the first place and *possibly* why it didn't throw a flag for him? I tried sticking it on several other nouns in my head and experienced a bit of dissonance. «Frasyuve» doesn't seem OK to me, for example...

Someone who can speak "linguistics" should ask him.



msg=175770 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 12:42:41 | u=21

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7824.msg175568#msg175568 date=1270613386]I tried sticking it on several other nouns in my head and experienced a bit of dissonance. «Frasyuve» doesn't seem OK to me, for example...[/quote]

Well, fra- with mass nouns seems a bit odd outside certain sorts of statements ("all hair"?).  But I see nothing objectionable about, say, nìn fraskxomit ko or 'i'a fravur.

[quote]Someone who can speak "linguistics" should ask him.[/quote]

Already in queue as part of my reference grammar project.  But I can add a few of these to the II-combined set.



msg=175956 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 17:20:42 | u=3552

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

tigermind

I've been thinking that fra- means "every", rather than "all"--at least partly because the nouns it attaches to are in the singular, although this might just be my English bias showing up. 



msg=176011 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 17:45:44 | u=73

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7824.msg175770#msg175770 date=1270644161]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7824.msg175568#msg175568 date=1270613386]I tried sticking it on several other nouns in my head and experienced a bit of dissonance. «Frasyuve» doesn't seem OK to me, for example...[/quote]

Well, fra- with mass nouns seems a bit odd outside certain sorts of statements ("all hair"?).  But I see nothing objectionable about, say, nìn fraskxomit ko or 'i'a fravur.

[quote]Someone who can speak "linguistics" should ask him.[/quote]

Already in queue as part of my reference grammar project.  But I can add a few of these to the II-combined set.
[/quote]

  &

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7824.msg175956#msg175956 date=1270660842]
I've been thinking that fra- means "every", rather than "all"--at least partly because the nouns it attaches to are in the singular, although this might just be my English bias showing up. 
[/quote]

Oh. Yes, of course. If something (countable) can be «PXAY» it can also be «FRA-»...? Makes sense. Very compatible with "every" too.

Now here's something to think about...

In English, "[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss]moss[/url]" (singular) is a collective noun that references "all moss". Moss is not countable unless you add a "grouping" word to it like "patch." (e.g. "There are 3 patches of moss on the stone wall beside my house.") There are roughly 12,000 known species of moss. Whenever one uses the plural "3 mosses" the meaning automatically becomes "3 [species/kinds] of moss".

Three patches of moss could contain only one moss or 17 mosses.

I'm curious if any other languages do this and if there are any other good examples even in English!? "Food" comes to mind. That's probably why I got such a cognitive dissonance when I added FRA- to SYUVE.

Anybody know?

What do «pxefay, mesyuve & frrwll» mean in Na'vi?

AND, now that I'm on a roll...

Pardon the technical term, but to DE-COUNT-ABL-IFY (generalize) countable nouns in English and talk about them collectively, we add "THẼ" sometimes with a funny overemphasized pronunciation (noted here by the funny diacritic.) "THẼ HOUSE stands at the core of mainstream American aspirations." That means essentially that "all houses" (generically referred to as ONE) in America stand...

  - THẼ GUN is a huge bone of contention.

Japanese (which has *almost* no plurals to speak of to start with) basically topicalizes the noun and if the sense of the English THẼ is very strong it also gets "to yū no" in front of the topicalizing "wa" which in the case of THẼ GUN would work out to be something à la "as for that which is said 'gun'".

(And as we might in English if we were not being to snooty about it,) Spanish would just use the plural, ¿no?

It seems to me in Na'vi that -ìRI/-RI would come into play, but since Na'vi DOES have plurals and DOESN'T have a definite (or hyper-definite???... hmm... I'm beginning to smell THẼ FRA-...) article, I wonder what would happen (if anything) to the rest of it.

«Kelkuri frapor tsranten nìtxan» leaves me a bit confused and questioning... but not completely lost...



msg=176441 | topic=7824 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 20:56:00 | u=21

Re: Ke... kaw'it.

wm.annis

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7824.msg175956#msg175956 date=1270660842]I've been thinking that fra- means "every", rather than "all"--at least partly because the nouns it attaches to are in the singular, although this might just be my English bias showing up.  [/quote]

Well, from the standpoint of just numbers, "each" and "all" are identical: "every human being on the planet" vs. "all human beings on the planet" — it's the same number of people.  But "every" conceptualizes them as individuals, "all" as a whole.  Linguists speak of "distributive" and "collective" senses here.  Some languages have both distributive and collective plurals.

Given Frommer's free use of nìwotx "all (of), in toto," (5 times in the Corpus) I'd guess he sees Na'vi's plurality markers (both ay- and things like fra-) as more toward the distributive range of senses, with nìwotx shifting towards the collective senses.



msg=175113 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 18:13:18 | u=73

Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Prrton

He said it all below, so here you go:

[quote=Paul Frommer (via e-mail 06 April, 2010)]Frakrr is "always" in the sense of "at all times," as in "He's always late."

"Forever" is different. The "poetic" meaning is "until the end of time," which would be:

tì'i'avay krrä

Stress: tì'I'avay KRRä

'i'a is the verb "end, conclude" (not to be confused with 'ia "lose oneself in a spiritual sense")

tì'i'a is the noun "ending, conclusion"

vay, as you know, is the ADP "up to"

I think { tì'i'avay krrä } has a nice lilt.

Another meaning of "forever" is "constantly" or "incessantly," as in "She's forever grousing about her work." For that you can just use nìlkeftang.

Hope that helps![/quote]

To summarize:

  frakrr : "always" / "all the time"

  nìlkeftang : "continuously" / "incessantly" / "without stopping"

  'i'avay krrä : (poetic) "forever" / "'til the end of time"


PS: I am assuming that nìlkeftang is derived from nì.l(u)ke.ftang meaning "without stop" (luke (adp.) = "without"), but I haven't explicitly confirmed that.

PPS: 6 April 6:30 PST, Corrected syllabification/stress on tì'i'avay.



msg=175123 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 18:25:19 | u=1975

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Ean Tirea

Good stuff there Prrton. :-)



msg=175374 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 21:35:53 | u=21

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7841.msg175113#msg175113 date=1270577598]   nìlkeftang : "continuously" / "incessantly" / "without stopping"[/quote]

Where did you get the accenting for this?  Given the behavior of other ke- compounds, I'd expect nìlkeftang.



msg=175474 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:45:11 | u=1120

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

roger

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7841.msg175113#msg175113 date=1270577598]
To summarize:

   'i'avay krrä : (poetic) "forever" / "'til the end of time"

PS: I am assuming that nìlkeftang is derived from nì.l(u)ke.ftang meaning "without stop" (luke (adp.) = "without"), but I haven't explicitly confirmed that.
[/quote]

Isn't the stressed syllable 'i', with both glottal stops, in this one?

I thought maybe < lekeftang, but yours works too.



msg=175494 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:29:00 | u=1225

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

neotrekkerz

[quote]Isn't the stressed syllable 'i', with both glottal stops, in this one?[/quote]

Well it could be, but isn't the rule with VCV to syllabify as V.CV like it is listed above rather than VC.V?

tì'i'avay is CVCVCVCV (y can't end a syllable so it must be a diphthong), so it should be CV.CV.CV.CV, shouldn't it?  This syllabification also gives 'i not 'i'.



msg=175509 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:58:54 | u=54

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Tiger

That's not an absolute.  There are plenty of words that aren't syllabified like that.  And compound words USUALLY keep their syllabification.  (I'm sure there's others, but "tutan" is one notable exception, but that's because the second syllable of "tute" is sort of "lost".)

Some words not syllabified as CVCV...
'engeng
'i'a (That's how it is normally, so no reason to think a prefix and suffix would change a syllable boundary they don't even touch)
tutan
kurakx
kxangangang

And diphthongs can go either way...
fewi
'ewan




msg=175518 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 01:24:44 | u=73

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7841.msg175374#msg175374 date=1270589753]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7841.msg175113#msg175113 date=1270577598]   nìlkeftang : "continuously" / "incessantly" / "without stopping"[/quote]

Where did you get the accenting for this?  Given the behavior of other ke- compounds, I'd expect nìlkeftang.
[/quote]

It came off a certain sheet.  ;)



msg=175520 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 01:27:07 | u=0

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7841.msg175518#msg175518 date=1270603484]
It came off a certain sheet.  ;)
[/quote]

I sense things looming...



msg=175521 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 01:32:10 | u=73

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=7841.msg175474#msg175474 date=1270597511]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7841.msg175113#msg175113 date=1270577598]
To summarize:

   'i'avay krrä : (poetic) "forever" / "'til the end of time"

PS: I am assuming that nìlkeftang is derived from nì.l(u)ke.ftang meaning "without stop" (luke (adp.) = "without"), but I haven't explicitly confirmed that.
[/quote]

Isn't the stressed syllable 'i', with both glottal stops, in this one?

I thought maybe < lekeftang, but yours works too.
[/quote]

It is 'i'avay krrä in terms of stress. Very good catch. I shouldn't be trying to do HTML without a mouse late at night. BUT, how does one make that pronunciation distinction? Please post an AUDIO response.  ;)

It totally could be <<< nì.le.ke.ftang. Another great point. Have you asked in the past about any other vowel-dropping patterns that seem to relate to this one?



msg=175522 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 01:36:46 | u=73

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Prrton

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7841.msg175520#msg175520 date=1270603627]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7841.msg175518#msg175518 date=1270603484]
It came off a certain sheet.  ;)
[/quote]

I sense things looming...
[/quote]

TO LOOM (v. intransitive.)... Now that's a good word! That should be in the LEP, Stage C.  ;)



msg=175527 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 02:08:54 | u=1225

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

neotrekkerz

Ma omängum, irayo for the counterexamples.

[quote]It came off a certain sheet.[/quote]

Ma Prrton, any chance of informing us as to a release date for said sheet?  Please?  Little hint? *crickets*



msg=175538 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 02:39:35 | u=21

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

wm.annis

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7841.msg175527#msg175527 date=1270606134]Ma Prrton, any chance of informing us as to a release date for said sheet?  Please?  Little hint? *crickets*[/quote]

He's talking about a different sheet, I am sorry to report.

There are several patterns of vowels dropping in prefixes when they pile up. Ke-le- regularly becomes just kel-.  I hadn't noticed nì-le- combined before.  And this word messes up a nice, neat accenting rule I had.



msg=175544 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 02:56:33 | u=21

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7841.msg175509#msg175509 date=1270601934]And diphthongs can go either way...
fewi[/quote]

That one's [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#A_Collection]fewi[/url].



msg=175554 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 03:09:54 | u=54

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Tiger

Hrm, I had that wrong in my list, and I have no idea where I got the wrong marking...  Probably a typo on my part to begin with.



msg=175565 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 03:59:19 | u=73

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Prrton

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7841.msg175527#msg175527 date=1270606134]
Ma omängum, irayo for the counterexamples.

[quote]It came off a certain sheet.[/quote]

Ma Prrton, any chance of informing us as to a release date for said sheet?  Please?  Little hint? *crickets*
[/quote]

Drips and dribbles, ma tsmuk. I'm afraid that's all I have to offer... but frequently... and HERE. You're in the right place.

Stay tuned.  ;D

Latin wasn't built in a day!  ;)



msg=175577 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 04:38:19 | u=1120

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7841.msg175509#msg175509 date=1270601934]
Some words not syllabified as CVCV...
'engeng
'i'a (That's how it is normally, so no reason to think a prefix and suffix would change a syllable boundary they don't even touch)
tutan
kurakx
kxangangang
[/quote]

It's tutan and kurakx. The others are right. The only C's in a C.V pattern so far are ng and '. (Besides of course the diphthongs.) I suspect this is an English influence, frankly.



msg=175652 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 08:31:13 | u=54

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Tiger

Wow...  I think I need to go over my list again, it seems to be full of typos like those... :(  And to make it worse, I DOUBLE typod tutan...  I had it in my list as tutan but typed it there as tutan while neither was correct.  It seems like I was paying more attention to the nucleus than the consonants when I copied the stresses.  (To be fair half the errors I've now found in my stuff are on l, which can be easily mistaken for being included/not in an underline due to being thin.)

Ok here's one that is verified in Frommer's list that doesn't syllabify CV.CV.  But again it is expected based on the root here.

talioang

(It's worth noting that in this list from Frommer I have found one obvious error in the stress marking because it resulted in a disallowed consonant cluster.  It's entirely possible there could be others which are more subtle.)

As I double check things, the root words which break the CV.CV guides are few and far between.  This includes diphthongs, nearly all of which are syllabified in roots as CV.CV, with "tswayon" a notable exception.  I have also found no root words that syllabify a "ts" as "t.s", every root the digraph appears in it is the affricate, not a t code and s onset.  Of course, something like "zì.sìt.sre" where the ts is from an affix would keep them split across syllables.  (But is there really a difference in pronunciation?  And really, that question goes for most of the ambiguous breaks.)



msg=176498 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 21:49:05 | u=1120

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

roger

Yes, talioang is another, w coda /l/. It's a compound, but yeah, that's another final C in C.V.

Which is the word with the disallowed C cluster?



msg=176535 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 23:06:01 | u=54

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Tiger

Tes[U]wotìng is how it is in Frommer's list.  (I let him know about it and he said it was a typo, and that his master list had it correct.)



msg=179590 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-11 11:13:54 | u=132

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Taronyu

I emailed Frommer about talioang. Unfortunately, he hasn't gotten back to me about that, so we don't know which is primary, which is secondary stress. Prrton, perhaps you could ask for me?



msg=179909 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-11 18:03:42 | u=73

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Prrton

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7841.msg179590#msg179590 date=1270984434]
I emailed Frommer about talioang. Unfortunately, he hasn't gotten back to me about that, so we don't know which is primary, which is secondary stress. Prrton, perhaps you could ask for me?
[/quote]

He seems pretty busy... speaking at [url=http://stevens.usc.edu/TEDxUSC]TEDxUSC[/url] this week, etc. I think that if you've sent something already, we should just consider it in the "queue".  ;)  (I have about 18 things stacked up in there already too. One more won't necessarily do anyone any good.)

We need a word for "patient/patiently" (*letsunpey/*nìltsunpey?) don't we?  :-\\



msg=180153 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-11 19:49:31 | u=0

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7841.msg179909#msg179909 date=1271009022]
I think that if you've sent something already, we should just consider it in the "queue".
[/quote]

Why don't we have the word for "queue," yet? Important, no?



msg=181008 | topic=7841 | board=99 | time=2010-04-13 01:44:20 | u=73

Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!

Prrton

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7841.msg180153#msg180153 date=1271015371]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7841.msg179909#msg179909 date=1271009022]
I think that if you've sent something already, we should just consider it in the "queue".
[/quote]

Why don't we have the word for "queue," yet? Important, no?
[/quote]

Srane. Tsranten nìtxan.

It's been requested, but I've heard that K. Pawl may not be comfortable naming something as important as the "queue" without input/feedback from a certain J. Cameron and [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/indigenous-cultures-and-humanitarian-efforts/kameronil-tarmok-naringit-amazona/]he is very busy with other things of late[/url].  ;)



msg=175269 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 19:52:00 | u=3552

Na’vi sayings?

tigermind

Kaltxì, ma smuk.  I don't know if this is the proper place for this discussion, but i was thinking it might be nice to ask Karyu Pawl for some Na'vi sayings—and to suggest to him some of our own.  As an example, i came up with,

Nantangìl fkoti frìp taluna pol leykirvatem peyä kifkeyati fa fya'o nì'aw a omum.
The viperwolf bites you because she is changing her world in the only way that she knows.

The intended meaning is that there is no use talking about creatures—or people—being "bad"; they do the things they do, sometimes what we would call "bad" things, because these are the only ways known to them, the only power they have.

[desc=What do you think of this]Fì’uri aynga fpìl fyape[/desc], ma smuk?  [desc=change or add to this as you like]Fì'uri leykivatem fu sivung nìfya’o a lu ayngaru prrte’[/desc].

Eywa ngahu, ma smuk.



msg=175275 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 19:58:26 | u=5408

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Amaya

I came up with a saying although my Na'vi is not good enough to actually translate it yet...  My grammar is as yet non-existant  ::)

"If you do not fear palulukan, I will not tell you he is behind you"

which I use in place of "well don't say I didn't warn you"

Sayings are fun, and Na'vi seems like the type of language that would be full of them.



msg=175289 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 20:04:56 | u=971

Re: Na’vi sayings?

marger

i'd translate it as
Txo nga txopu ke si palulukanur, oel ngaru rä'ä pìyeng futa 'aw lu uo nga.


The idea is just awesome i think... i'll have to think about some too :D



msg=175295 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 20:12:25 | u=3552

Re: Na’vi sayings?

tigermind

[quote author=Amaya link=topic=7848.msg175275#msg175275 date=1270583906]
I came up with a saying although my Na'vi is not good enough to actually translate it yet...  My grammar is as yet non-existant  ::)

"If you do not fear palulukan, I will not tell you he is behind you"

which I use in place of "well don't say I didn't warn you"

Sayings are fun, and Na'vi seems like the type of language that would be full of them.
[/quote]

Edit:Ooh, ninja'd!  Here was my go at the translation, anyway.

Txo palulukanìri txopu ke si nga, tsakrr ke pasyeng oel ngaru futa pol tok fìtsengit a uo nga.
Txo palulukan-ìri txopu ke si nga tsakrr ke p<asy>eng oe-l nga-ru fì'ut a po-l tok fìtseng-it a uo- nga
If palulukan-TOP fear NEG do you then NEG tell<FUT.INT> i-ERG this.thing that he-ERG be this.place-ACC SBRD behind- you.

But, as always, i defer to the [desc=great people of the Na'vi language community]aynawmtu lì'fya'oloä leNa'vi[/desc].



msg=175302 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 20:16:54 | u=1975

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Ean Tirea

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7848.msg175295#msg175295 date=1270584745]
[quote author=Amaya link=topic=7848.msg175275#msg175275 date=1270583906]
I came up with a saying although my Na'vi is not good enough to actually translate it yet...  My grammar is as yet non-existant  ::)

"If you do not fear palulukan, I will not tell you he is behind you"

which I use in place of "well don't say I didn't warn you"

Sayings are fun, and Na'vi seems like the type of language that would be full of them.
[/quote]

yes, I'd say that translation is very very nice.

Edit:Ooh, ninja'd!  Here was my go at the translation, anyway.

Txo palulukanìri txopu ke si nga, tsakrr ke pasyeng oel ngaru futa pol tok fìtsengit a uo nga.
Txo palulukan-ìri txopu ke si nga tsakrr ke p<asy>eng oe-l nga-ru fì'ut a po-l tok fìtseng-it a uo- nga
If palulukan-TOP fear NEG do you then NEG tell<FUT.INT> i-ERG this.thing that he-ERG be this.place-ACC SBRD behind- you.

But, as always, i defer to the [desc=great people of the Na'vi language community]aynawmtu lì'fya'oloä leNa'vi[/desc].
[/quote]



msg=175307 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 20:18:50 | u=971

Re: Na’vi sayings?

marger

[desc=If you don't hear Eywa's words, don't cover your ears.]Txo ngal ke stawm aylì'uti Eywayä, lew rä'ä si ngeyä memikyun.[/desc]

It'd mean something like look for your mistakes first and just after blame others...



msg=175341 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 20:45:36 | u=631

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Plumps83

[quote author=Hawnuyu atxen link=topic=7848.msg175307#msg175307 date=1270585130]
[desc=If you don't hear Eywa's words, don't put your hands on your ears.]Txo ngal ke stawm aylì'uti Eywayä, rä'ä yem ngeyä mesyokx ngeyä memikyunmì.[/desc][/quote]
[font=Garamond]
That's a good one - like the three monkeys :D don’t hear, don’t see, don’t say

We have "to cover" - maybe you’d consider a slight change with the second part of your sentence?
..., lew rä’ä si ngeyä memikyun.
It’s shorter ... but as with the »Good luck!« sentences, I think a few variations in sayings are okay.

I actually suggested a sentence a few days back in the Idiomatic Expressions section:

Since seeing and perception is so important for the Na’vi, and I specifically have the scene withe Neytiri kissing Jake’s closed eyes in mind, I could imagine they’d have a saying like:

[desc=May Eywa kiss/touch your eyes (in order to make you see)]Eywal menarit ngeyä pivom (fte kivame)[/desc]
alternatively for pom it could be ’ampi

Maybe in hope that a stubborn person will reconsider their path/choice and act with reason...


Also, right now, I’m thinking of Jake saying »I was in the place the Eye does not see.« Since he’s been trained by the Na’vi and living the Na’vi way it could be he adopted that saying from the Na’vi.
kawkrr ke tivok ngal tsengit a Eywayä Nari ke kame.
May you never be in the place that the Eye does not see.
(I’m not sure about that one, subordinate clause seems wrong to me and whether to use kame or tse'a beats me.)



msg=175347 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 20:53:57 | u=971

Re: Na’vi sayings?

marger

Irayo :D
I'm just happy, that my sentence was correct...



msg=175361 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 21:20:58 | u=3552

Re: Na’vi sayings?

tigermind

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7848.msg175341#msg175341 date=1270586736]
...Also, right now, I’m thinking of Jake saying »I was in the place the Eye does not see.« Since he’s been trained by the Na’vi and living the Na’vi way it could be he adopted that saying from the Na’vi.
kawkrr rä’ä tivok ngal tsengit a Nawma Nari ke kame.
May you never be in the place that the Eye does not see.
(I’m not sure about that one, subordinate clause seems wrong to me and whether to use kame or tse'a beats me.)
[/quote]

If i may offer a small suggestion, rä'ä seems to mean "don't," so as you have your sentence now would (i think) mean, "Don't you ever be in the place that the Great Eye does not see."  So, i would suggest changing the first part to, Kawkrr ke tivok ngal....  Also, Nawma Nari seems [desc=although it does conjure up Lord of the Rings a little bit...]fine[/desc], but i personally would probably say Nari Eywayä--especially since we specifically hear Mo'at make mention of the "Eye of Eywa" in the film.



msg=175363 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 21:24:33 | u=631

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Ma tigermind,
that's exactly what I was thinking of - yes, thank you so much for the suggestions. As I said, I wasn't sure with the sentence.



msg=175397 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 22:06:08 | u=54

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Tiger

[quote author=Hawnuyu atxen link=topic=7848.msg175289#msg175289 date=1270584296]
i'd translate it as
Txo nga txopu ke si palulukanur, oel ngaru rä'ä pìyeng futa 'aw lu uo nga.


The idea is just awesome i think... i'll have to think about some too :D
[/quote]I'd actually go causative here.

Txo ngati txopu ke seyki palulukanìl, oel ngaru ke pìsyeng futa po uo nga lu
If you are not made to fear by a thanator, I will not tell you that he is behind you

But, I think I like this alternate version a little better...

Txo ngati txopu ke seyki palulukanìl, oe ngaru ke pìsyeng teri fwa uo nga lu
If you don't fear the thanator, I will not tell you what is behind you



msg=175436 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 22:50:22 | u=0

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Swoka Swizaw

(Krr a lu tìkawng,) ngeyä tstal kawkrr ke tete livu.
(When there is evil,) may your knife never be dull.

The quote can be used without what you find in the parentheses. Really, I prefer that, but the added information is important.

'Upe terifì'ut ayngal fpìl?



msg=175572 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 04:15:49 | u=73

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Prrton

I think this topic is really interesting and important. VERY. But, I wonder as a housekeeping issue if it might not be better located in "Language Expansion" (targeted for LEP phase C).

I defer to tsmuk omängum fra'uti.



msg=175588 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 05:20:22 | u=631

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7848.msg175572#msg175572 date=1270613749]
I think this topic is really interesting and important. VERY. But, I wonder as a housekeeping issue if it might not be better located in "Language Expansion" (targeted for LEP phase C).

I defer to tsmuk omängum fra'uti.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
It was started there but moved here... I don't know why.



msg=175653 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 08:33:37 | u=54

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Tiger

William moved it, and I trust he had a reason so I see no reason to second guess that.  It may be merely because the LEP is about a specific request for words, not idioms/phrases.  It is also (Prrton creations aside) asking Frommer to create the words, whereas this is suggesting things for acceptance/suggestions.



msg=175841 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 16:07:27 | u=430

Re: Na’vi sayings?

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7848.msg175653#msg175653 date=1270629217]
William moved it, and I trust he had a reason so I see no reason to second guess that.  It may be merely because the LEP is about a specific request for words, not idioms/phrases.  It is also (Prrton creations aside) asking Frommer to create the words, whereas this is suggesting things for acceptance/suggestions.
[/quote]

Yeah, didn't we want to get a list of some phrases to give to Karyu Pawl and ask him what he thought of them. Sort of to give him ideas or something.



msg=176434 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 20:48:18 | u=73

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7848.msg175841#msg175841 date=1270656447]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7848.msg175653#msg175653 date=1270629217]
William moved it, and I trust he had a reason so I see no reason to second guess that.  It may be merely because the LEP is about a specific request for words, not idioms/phrases.  It is also (Prrton creations aside) asking Frommer to create the words, whereas this is suggesting things for acceptance/suggestions.
[/quote]

Yeah, didn't we want to get a list of some phrases to give to Karyu Pawl and ask him what he thought of them. Sort of to give him ideas or something.
[/quote]

Fìtxeleri tsranten nì'law tsatseng a frapo payate nìtì'i'a to tsayfya'o a fkol ftxivey fte ne tsatsenge sivop. Fa fìfya kop tam nìwotx!  ;D



msg=176447 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 20:58:45 | u=21

Re: Na’vi sayings?

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7848.msg175572#msg175572 date=1270613749]
I think this topic is really interesting and important. VERY. But, I wonder as a housekeeping issue if it might not be better located in "Language Expansion" (targeted for LEP phase C).[/quote]

Let's stick to more basic vocabulary for phase C, to get more words to work with for phrases.  ;)

I see laying phrases before Frommer to ask his opinion of them as being quite like the "Combining our Efforts" threads.



msg=484462 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2011-08-08 20:20:06 | u=8469

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Nicole

Heres one: Eywa lu Tìhawnu sì nga lu nga meuìa poe  

This translates as :Eywa will protect you if you honor her

Its pretty much a way of saying treat others as you want to be treated  :D

Btw How do you say "her" and "him" in na'vi



msg=484482 | topic=7848 | board=99 | time=2011-08-08 21:29:52 | u=1975

Re: Na’vi sayings?

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Nicole link=topic=7848.msg484462#msg484462 date=1312834806]
Heres one: Eywa lu Tìhawnu sì nga lu nga meuìa poe 

This translates as :Eywa will protect you if you honor her

Its pretty much a way of saying treat others as you want to be treated  :D[/quote]

Hello again :D I see you like the Updates forum. and digging up threads which are well over a year old. (in this case I guess it's okay since you actually contributed to the topic. ;)) though honestly, I would have posted this elsewhere, as there are other threads(I think) in other subforums about translating idioms. :)

So the attested phrase for the idea of "treat others as you want to be treated" has an existing translation since a good while now. it is called

[desc=the First Rule of Living Together]Koren a'awve tìruseyä 'awsiteng[/desc]:

[desc=As for action which to you pleasurable is not, this action do not do to others.]Kemìri a ngaru prrte' ke lu tsakem rä'ä sivi aylaheru.[/desc]



Also some recent on-topic updates:

[desc=the prey eats the hunter, a great new expression for chaos.
]Taronyut yom smarìl,[/desc]

and

[desc=a mantis doesn't whistle, a great new expression for something not being in someone's nature.
]Fwäkì ke fwefwi[/desc]

[quote]
Btw How do you say "her" and "him" in na'vi
[/quote]

it's either [desc=her/him (indirect object)]poru[/desc] or [desc=her/him (direct object)]poti[/desc], (or [desc=him (indirect object)]poanur[/desc], [desc=him (direct object)]poanit[/desc], [desc=her (indirect object)]poeru[/desc], [desc=her (direct object)]poeti[/desc]) depending.



msg=178090 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-09 17:53:23 | u=54

Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

Tiger

As a few people have noted today is my birthday, but I've got a little gift for everyone!  And I thought I'd present it as a little Na'vi short story.

Lamu trr akawng.  Txon a sre satrr, oel 'awmit oeyä tok.  Txono alahe tì'awm oeru prrte' lu, slä tsatxon oel aymokrit stolawm asim.  Nìfnu feyä klltsengit rerun, ulte tsatseng oel wempongut kxutuä ayoeyä tsole'änga.  Tolìng mikyun fte tsolun tìhawlit feyä nivume, ulte stolawm fì'ut a oeru prrte' ke lu.  Nolume oel futa feyä tìkanìri tìska'a kelutralä ayoeyä!  Oel tsakrr olomum futa fko zene fot fteykang, ha oel tìsop oeyä 'eykoli'a ulte kämakto nìwin ne kelutral fte piveng aylaru.  Oe tolätxaw a krr, kea ftxozä tìpähemä oeyä ke lu taluna ayoel mekret tsamä hivawl zolene.

Lamu trr akawng, ulte zene set ayoe kelutralit zivong.

[spoiler]It was a bad day.  The night before, I was at my camp.  Some other night, I enjoy camping, but that night I heard voices nearby.  Quierly I found their position, and there I saw a squad of our enemy.  I listened to learn their plan, and I did not like what I heard.  I learned that their target was the destruction of our home tree!  I knew then that they must be stopped, so I ended my journey and rode out quickly to home tree to tell the others.  When I returned, there was no celebration of my arrival, because we had to prepare war supplies.

It was a bad day, and now we must save home tree.[/spoiler]

This story made possible by the following words from Karyu Pawl.
'awmn. Camp
'awmn. Camping
tìska'an. Destruction
sopn. Journey
wempongun. Squad, military clan, battle party
asimadv. Nearby, at close range
klltsengn. Position
kxutun. Enemy
mekren. Supplies
hawln. Preparations, plan
kann. Aim, goal, purpose, target
hemn. Arrival



msg=178155 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-09 18:38:29 | u=984

Re: Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]Tweti. Irayo.
And happy birthday. :)

’awm should be a verb right?



msg=178169 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-09 18:48:15 | u=54

Re: Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

Tiger

Nope, 'awm is a noun.  Yes, there's a noun, and a nominal of the noun.  The verb would be tì'awm si.  I believe 'awm means a camp as in the location, while tì'awm is the more abstract concept of camping.



msg=178183 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-09 18:57:29 | u=1225

Re: Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

neotrekkerz

Ftxozäri aylrrtok ngaru!  Mipa aylì'uri irayo.



msg=178192 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-09 19:02:30 | u=73

Re: Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

Prrton

Irayo, ma tsmukan!

Nìrangal, ngeyä ftxozäri ngaru livu fpom sì aylrrtok apxay!




msg=178204 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-09 19:10:44 | u=1550

Re: Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

Taras

Irayo seiyi oe ngaru, ma tsmukan. Mipa aylì'u frakrr oeru prrte' leiu ;)

Ma Prrton, kxawm nìeyawr livu san Nìrangal, ngeyä ftxozäri ngaru lirvu fpom sì aylrrtok apxay! sìk, kefyak? ;)



msg=178224 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-09 19:34:34 | u=3552

Re: Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

tigermind

Faylì'uri ngaru irayo seiyi oe, ma 'eylan.  Ngeyä ftxozäri lefpom livu!



msg=178325 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-09 21:52:21 | u=430

Re: Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

TehMightyPirate

Ftxozäri aylrrtok ngaru!



msg=178345 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-09 22:23:17 | u=0

Re: Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

Swoka Swizaw

::puts a top-hat on top of three vertically stacked balls of snow:: "HAPPY BIRTHDAY!" (Get it?) I had to be original, and so many wrote their stuff in Na'vi. ::)

Anyway, the two 'awm's is yet another nuiance to Na'vi that I didn't see coming. Tstxolì'u a tstxolì'uta ngolop...tewti. (Unless I am wrong to think that is a new thing.)



msg=178481 | topic=7963 | board=99 | time=2010-04-10 03:10:55 | u=73

Re: Tìtìng ahì'i aylì'u amip awngar

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7963.msg178204#msg178204 date=1270840244]

Ma Prrton, kxawm nìeyawr livu san Nìrangal, ngeyä ftxozäri ngaru lirvu fpom sì aylrrtok apxay! sìk, kefyak? ;)
[/quote]

Fpìl futa ke keyawr lu mefya nìteng.  ;)  Hemlì'uri lì'fyayä leNa'vi oeru mowan lu nìtxan fwa tsun fko ftxivey nìprrte' [desc=*unattested --- if and only if / as long as]txo nì'aw txo[/desc] tsaral a tsranten meflltxeyur slivu law nìtam. Nìlaw, fìfya'o a ngal frapor wolìntxu sìltsan nì'it lu to tsafya'o a oe pamrel si (ke zene slivu tsaw san« soli »sìk, kefyak?) taluna tsafya kxawm ngatsop aysäfpìlit krrteri nì'ul ayronsemur frapeyä a tìng nari. Fìsänumeri ngaru irayo seiyi oe, ma tsmuk.



msg=180263 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-11 23:03:40 | u=664

'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Keyltstxatsmen

New words!  :)

I thought I would translate some famous quotes here instead of trying to put them all into one narrative:

Fratute lu eveng sì haxpì 'awa soaiayä.
[spoiler]All men are children, and of one family. -Henry David Thoreau[/spoiler]

Pxìm sìlstana tìterkupìl kawnga tìmuntxatì ftang.
[spoiler]Many a good hanging prevents a bad marriage. -William Shakespeare [/spoiler]

Tìyawn lu kakrel ulte tì'eylanìl menarit tstu seyki.
[spoiler]Love is blind; friendship closes its eyes. -Friedrich Nietzsche[/spoiler]

Tìreyä tìsraw lu fwa awnga slu koak nìhawng nìwin sì txantslusam nìhawng kì’ong.
[spoiler]Life's Tragedy is that we get old to soon and wise too late. -Benjamin Franklin [/spoiler]

Muiäa tì’eyng kifkeyur lu pxìm fwa fko slu lekye'ung.
[spoiler]It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane. -Phillip K. Dick[/spoiler]

Pamtseo lu morki ame'em tìngopä.
[spoiler]Music is the harmonious voice of creation. -Giuseppe Mazzini [/spoiler]

Keu lu fkay kawnga tìfyawìntxuto.
[spoiler]There is nothing more hateful than bad advice. -Sophocles[/spoiler]

Lu poru a lu txanew frakrr tìnew.
[spoiler]He who is greedy is always in want. -Horace[/spoiler]

[quote]soaia\



msg=180268 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-11 23:10:55 | u=1550

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Taras

MOE! Trram oe fparmìl teri fìlì'u a san tì'eylan sìk :D

Irayo, ma tsmukan ;)

================

Sawnung:

Ulte pelun fìlì'u sì san tì'awpo sìk ke lu stxolì'u? Kxawm tì- lu tstxolì'u ulte ta sìralpeng fì'u law lu...



msg=180275 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-11 23:31:13 | u=631

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Great! Thanks for sharing!

Do you have information about the stress as well?
Could you check the word classes for tì’awpo and tì’eylan again? Irayo



msg=180276 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-11 23:32:30 | u=1225

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

neotrekkerz

Some truly great words there.  Thanks!



msg=180292 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 00:15:33 | u=3552

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

tigermind

Tewti, faylì'u txantsan lu nang!  Irayo, ma 'eylan!



msg=180293 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 00:17:01 | u=0

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Swoka Swizaw

Does Frommer just drop these in you all's laps? God, to get one word from him would be awesome, but what is your secret?

And a fantastic collection, BTW.



msg=180306 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 01:31:06 | u=984

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]I made some [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/User:Ochristi/Construction/Update_Log/2010-04#2010-04-11]guesses[/url] on intonation based on known words, ayngal rä’ä tspivang oeti, rutxe. :o



msg=180355 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 05:07:03 | u=664

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Keyltstxatsmen

Sorry, rushed this out because I didn't very much time.  I will update the stress and the ADJ/N discrepancy right now!

Irayo nìtxan frapor!
ta Keyl



msg=180442 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 11:29:38 | u=984

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]Do you know, if it is ’eylan?
No need to hurry. =)



msg=180621 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 15:58:32 | u=664

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8034.msg180442#msg180442 date=1271071778]
[font=Book Antiqua]Do you know, if it is ’eylan?
No need to hurry. =)
[/quote]

Yes, it is. :) 



msg=180747 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 18:29:09 | u=631

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Plumps83

[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=8034.msg180263#msg180263 date=1271027020]
[quote]yawnetu / yawntu\



msg=180796 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 19:01:28 | u=664

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=8034.msg180747#msg180747 date=1271096949]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=8034.msg180263#msg180263 date=1271027020]
[quote]yawnetu / yawntu\



msg=180802 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 19:04:34 | u=631

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]tam, oeyä kxeyey ;) irayo ma tsmukan



msg=180849 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 19:54:37 | u=3552

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

tigermind

I'm curious about me'em.

In English, "harmony" is a musical term, but it has been extended to talk about harmony in visual arts, relationships...  I'm wondering if it's the same in the Na'vi language, or if "harmonious" was just the best English translation.

Maybe, for example, me'em originally referrred to an ikran and rider working together in a way that was me'em, but the word has since broadened to more metaphorical usages.

Ral tìpawmä oeyä law lu srak?



msg=180913 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 21:12:26 | u=0

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8034.msg180849#msg180849 date=1271102077]
I'm curious about me'em.

In English, "harmony" is a musical term, but it has been extended to talk about harmony in visual arts, relationships...  I'm wondering if it's the same in the Na'vi language, or if "harmonious" was just the best English translation.

Maybe, for example, me'em originally referrred to an ikran and rider working together in a way that was me'em, but the word has since broadened to more metaphorical usages.

Ral tìpawmä oeyä law lu srak?
[/quote]

Genuine harmony.

Non-chaotic.

Serene.

The feeling one has as they view a "perfect" sun set.

...take your pick. :D (Though, those are my thoughts, anyway.)



msg=180948 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-12 22:02:53 | u=73

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Prrton

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8034.msg180913#msg180913 date=1271106746]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8034.msg180849#msg180849 date=1271102077]
I'm curious about me'em.

In English, "harmony" is a musical term, but it has been extended to talk about harmony in visual arts, relationships...  I'm wondering if it's the same in the Na'vi language, or if "harmonious" was just the best English translation.

Maybe, for example, me'em originally referrred to an ikran and rider working together in a way that was me'em, but the word has since broadened to more metaphorical usages.

Ral tìpawmä oeyä law lu srak?
[/quote]

Genuine harmony.

Non-chaotic.

Serene.

The feeling one has as they view a "perfect" sun set.

...take your pick. :D (Though, those are my thoughts, anyway.)
[/quote]

The meaning of the English "harmony" comes from Greek via Latin and French "joining, concord" so the musical connotation/context is not the only/original one.

I took it to mean "smoothly collaborative" / "getting along well" / "well balanced" and that impression comes in part from the way I remember it. Whether it's «me» (TWO people or ingredients) + «'em» (COOKing or being COOKed) together or not, the whole experience and resulting 'dish' is going to be better if everything goes "harmoniously".

    ;)

Don't quote me on the pseudo-etymology 'cause I'd be rather surprised if it's derived from those concepts. One day we'll ask him.



msg=181017 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-13 02:41:44 | u=0

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Swoka Swizaw

I won't quote you, pänutìng oe. Specifically about your etymology, though, words that appear like other roots, most likely, are not. I am sure that you know that. I just think that it should be said. Specifically, what I mean by saying that, is that that Frommer will indicate what a homonym in English will mean in Na'vi. "Snumìna: dim (of a person)," for instance. Basically, if otherwise NOT indicated, the meaning that we receive for any word is the one that we most utilize in our day to day.



msg=181277 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-13 13:08:19 | u=3552

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

tigermind

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8034.msg180948#msg180948 date=1271109773]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8034.msg180913#msg180913 date=1271106746]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8034.msg180849#msg180849 date=1271102077]
I'm curious about me'em.

In English, "harmony" is a musical term, but it has been extended to talk about harmony in visual arts, relationships...  I'm wondering if it's the same in the Na'vi language, or if "harmonious" was just the best English translation.

Maybe, for example, me'em originally referrred to an ikran and rider working together in a way that was me'em, but the word has since broadened to more metaphorical usages.

Ral tìpawmä oeyä law lu srak?
[/quote]

Genuine harmony.

Non-chaotic.

Serene.

The feeling one has as they view a "perfect" sun set.

...take your pick. :D (Though, those are my thoughts, anyway.)
[/quote]

The meaning of the English "harmony" comes from Greek via Latin and French "joining, concord" so the musical connotation/context is not the only/original one.[/quote]

Fair enough; learn something new every day.  Irayo.



msg=181686 | topic=8034 | board=99 | time=2010-04-13 19:01:07 | u=73

Re: 'It aylì'uyä amip teri "sute" (fpi Na'viyä Sawtuteyäsì nìteng)

Prrton

[quote]
...Frommer will indicate what a homonym in English will mean in Na'vi. "Snumìna: dim (of a person)," for instance. Basically, if otherwise NOT indicated, the meaning that we receive for any word is the one that we most utilize in our day to day.
[/quote]

Of course. But, in some cases, like the BROADER meaning of "harmonious" (which was the theme on which I was commenting), the themes/meanings that we as individuals most assign and utilize in our day to day lives can be context sensitive. I'm not very musically inclined. I don't play instruments or perform musically (though I love to dance and have "rhythm"). So, if someone asks me to associate "harmony/harmonious" with a meaning or context, the first thing that pops into my head is "peace and harmony" (i.e. "people getting along with each other well"). That sense of "harmony" is essentially the same as musical harmony at its core (people vs. notes/chords getting along well together) but the way to express that could be very different in Na'vi. Example:

  way vs. tìrol

  Both are given as "song" (n.).

I assume that nangtang are not capable of the verb rol ("to sing" (possibly because it involves lyrics (?))) but nguway ("pack howling/calls" (cf: "birdsong")) is clearly their "song" domain. That doesn't mean to me that the Na'vi (tute) are not capable of way (instrumental?, humming?), but there could still be a great deal of subtlety in how way is distinguished (or not) from tìrol in different contexts.

  That's a nice [______]:

    - song
    - tune
    - ditty
    - melody
    - track
    - warbling
    - chirping
    - cheeping
    - peeping
    - Twitter® (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
    - moan (of whale song)

I wish I knew how K. Pawl would translate "the First Songs" (from Neytiri's line from the film (for more reasons than one)). Ayway/Sìrol? There could be a lot of meaning/distinction there. Pxeway/Pxesìrol? The "First Songs" might be a set of only three? Or there might exist unknown to us at this time a term or terms that *sound/feel* more like our names for "aria, ballad, canticle" that the Na'vi use to refer ONLY to those "Songs". If someone can, please [fill me in]/[tell me]/[inform me]/[let me know]/[enlighten me]/[share that with me].

I don't think we should automatically assume that words that are NOT explicitly marked as RESTRICTED in context by K. Pawl carry precisely the same (English) semantic ranges (and/or biases) as the words that are used in the definitions. As thorough as he is, there is still, from time to time, the potential for ambiguity. Most are minor and relatively unimportant in recent days, but there was a LONG stretch a while back when we didn't know if "light" (atan) was "illumination"(n.) or "not heavy"(adj.). That ambiguity was none of K. Pawl's doing, of course, but those of us who struggled so in the "early days" are still sensitive to the possibility of more serious uncertainty, so we think about it. And, we have to be prepared to be wrong and relearn. That's quite palatable for me and a big part of my personal journey with Na'vi.



msg=182114 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 10:51:03 | u=2873

Conceptual adjectives

Skyinou

Kaltxì ma eylan!
Not a lot of you know me, because I'm more active in the french part of the forum.
Stresses and new adjectives:

[quote]
kangay - valid
keltsun - impossible
kxuke - safe
lehawng excessive
lekin - necessary
sìlronsem - clever, smart (for a thing)
stxong - strange, unfamiliar, unknown
syen - last, final
rusey - alive, living, living thing (can be a noun too)
[/quote]

I personnaly love stxong, it's so... stxong.  ;D
Frommerly certified
kìyevame



msg=182122 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 11:25:32 | u=1550

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Taras

Irayo, ma tsmuk ;)



msg=182136 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 11:40:18 | u=985

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Nyx

Useful words. Thanks for sharing :)

But, could someone give me an example of rusey being a noun? I'm having a bit of trouble thinking of how that would work.



msg=182138 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 11:41:54 | u=1550

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Taras

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=8114.msg182136#msg182136 date=1271245218]
But, could someone give me an example of rusey being a noun?
[/quote]

Nì'aw rusey tsun pivlltxe.



msg=182212 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 13:17:57 | u=985

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Nyx

Kay, I think I get it. Pretty simple. Irayo for that :)



msg=182221 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 13:27:42 | u=631

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Plumps83

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8114.msg182138#msg182138 date=1271245314]
Nì'aw rusey tsun pivlltxe.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]*hangham* fì’u lu tìkenong asìltsan ;)

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=8114.msg182114#msg182114 date=1271242263]
[quote]kxuke - safe[/quote][/quote]

[font=Garamond]Thanks so much for sharing!

I like this one – goes with the examples of fuke and luke but the first (oe fpìl) one with a noun (no harm => ›unharmed‹? = safe)
Do you happen to know the stress for this one?
Irayo



msg=182223 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 13:28:57 | u=984

Re: Conceptual adjectives

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]Irayo ma ’eylan talun mekre mipa aylì’uä.

Can you confirm kxuke?



msg=182278 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 14:48:11 | u=430

Re: Conceptual adjectives

TehMightyPirate

Woot! So many new words, can't keep up! Fì'u lu txantsan!

I too love stxawng [desc=lol, it's so weird my brain rejected the spelling only 30 seconds after I looked at the word, rofl.]stxong[/desc], it is a strange word.



msg=182372 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 16:13:41 | u=0

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8114.msg182278#msg182278 date=1271256491]
I too love stxawng [desc=lol, it's so weird my brain rejected the spelling only 30 seconds after I looked at the word, rofl.]stxong[/desc], it is a strange word.
[/quote]

You are right...something about stxong does LOOK odd.



msg=182410 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 16:52:20 | u=2873

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Skyinou

Sadely, I don't have the stresses for kxuke and syen yet. :'(
I'm not yure if syen need one, but it is two syllables.



msg=182423 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 16:58:20 | u=664

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Keyltstxatsmen

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=8114.msg182410#msg182410 date=1271263940]
Sadely, I don't have the stresses for kxuke and syen yet. :'(
I'm not yure if syen need one, but it is two syllables.
[/quote]

kxuke is correct, and syen is only 1 syllable.  S+y is a consonant cluster.

-Keyl



msg=182484 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 17:44:26 | u=1120

Re: Conceptual adjectives

roger

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=8114.msg182136#msg182136 date=1271245218]
But, could someone give me an example of rusey being a noun? I'm having a bit of trouble thinking of how that would work.
[/quote]

In English, gerunds can be noun or adj ('the living and the dead', 'a living thing'), but in Na'vi they're normally only adj. This is an exception: normal for English, abnormal for Na'vi.



msg=182525 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 18:12:06 | u=3552

Re: Conceptual adjectives

tigermind

keltsun surprises me a little; i would have expected *ketsun--but, then again, that would get confused with ke tsun, i guess. 

I like kxuke ("no harm"), especially because it contrasts nicely with zawnong, whereas in English we generally use the same word for both concepts.

I'm a little surprised, though, at how many words are derived from affixing some variation of ke to their opposites—e.g., kerusey = "not living" (dead); keteng = "not same" (different); keyawr = "not correct" (wrong).  I would have expected all of these to be important enough to have their own words, rather than being derived this way.

Slä oeri ke lu ngopyu lì'fyayä leNa'vi, tafral tìftxey ke lu oeru.
But i am not the creator of the Na'vi language, therefore the choice is not mine.



msg=182747 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-14 21:12:44 | u=73

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Prrton

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8114.msg182372#msg182372 date=1271261621]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8114.msg182278#msg182278 date=1271256491]
I too love stxawng [desc=lol, it's so weird my brain rejected the spelling only 30 seconds after I looked at the word, rofl.]stxong[/desc], it is a strange word.
[/quote]

You are right...something about stxong does LOOK odd.
[/quote]

It COULD look even MORE odd if it were tstxong.  ;)  <<< [desc=But that is not a currently defined, valid word in Na'vi.]Slä tsaw mi ke lu kangaya lì'u a tsar lu ral nìNa'vi.[/desc]

[quote=Paul Frommer from Language Log]Consonant clusters. Clusters of two consonants can occur, but only in syllable-initial position and only in the following combinations:

        f,  s,  ts +  {p, t, k, px, tx, kx, m, n, ng, r, l, w, y}

There are thus 39 possible initial C-clusters, all of which are attested in the lexicon.[/quote]

Or à la roger : CTXOG  :-\\  <<< [desc=THAT IS TRULY STRANGE.]TSA'U STXONG LU NÌNGAY[/desc] ! ! !

    CTXO  <<< [desc=WOW!! That IS a VALID word]TEWTI!! Tsa'u KANGAYa lì'u LU[/desc] ! ! !  :o

Phrase of the day?: [desc=Those of you who know Lojban can clean up all the ambiguities in this phrase.]Tawtuteru stxonga mestxo lu taluna lu mezekwä lehawng.[/desc]

We have to be thankful for all the little kindnesses of life! (Pxel TSä sì NGä.)

Tsmukan Skyinour Karyu Pawlursì IRAYO seiyi!



msg=183093 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-15 09:54:23 | u=132

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Taronyu

I'm a bit confused by sìlronsem. Why would a thing have a mind? What does he mean by thing? You mean animal?



msg=183117 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-15 11:23:36 | u=2873

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Skyinou

I think he means that an action is "sìlronsem", but there is an other word to say someone or an animal is clever.



msg=183680 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-15 23:42:52 | u=73

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Prrton

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=8114.msg183117#msg183117 date=1271330616]
I think he means that an action is "sìlronsem", but there is an other word to say someone or an animal is clever.
[/quote]

I think it means "clever" in the sense of "well thought out / well designed / artful / brilliant / neat!".

  Tsaw lu sìlronsem nìngay! >>> That's really clever!

It reflects back on the mind that was involved in thinking it up, but one wouldn't form the sentence:

  *[Nga sìlronsem lu.]

        but rather

  Ngal ngop a fì'u sìlronsem lu.



msg=183724 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 01:45:04 | u=3552

Re: Conceptual adjectives

tigermind

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=8114.msg183117#msg183117 date=1271330616]
I think he means that an action is "sìlronsem", but there is an other word to say someone or an animal is clever.
[/quote]

Indeed; we have the word kanu



msg=184477 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 20:50:37 | u=3863

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Mithcoriel

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8114.msg182525#msg182525 date=1271268726]
keltsun surprises me a little; i would have expected *ketsun--but, then again, that would get confused with ke tsun, i guess. 
[/quote]

I bet it's derived from ke-lu-tsun.


[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=8114.msg183093#msg183093 date=1271325263]
I'm a bit confused by sìlronsem. Why would a thing have a mind? What does he mean by thing? You mean animal?
[/quote]

Yeah, as people said: "That is a clever idea" etc. I bet a good translation would be "well thought out", since that's something which in english you can't call a person, but a thing.



msg=184602 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 23:51:01 | u=0

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=8114.msg184477#msg184477 date=1271451037]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8114.msg182525#msg182525 date=1271268726]
keltsun surprises me a little; i would have expected *ketsun--but, then again, that would get confused with ke tsun, i guess. 
[/quote]

I bet it's derived from ke-lu-tsun.
[/quote]

"Is not able."  ...sounds good.



msg=184652 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 01:48:18 | u=1120

Re: Conceptual adjectives

roger

unless we have ?lecun for "possible".



msg=184747 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 07:48:44 | u=73

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=8114.msg184652#msg184652 date=1271468898]
unless we have ?lecun for "possible".
[/quote]

We have «letsunslu» for "possible" as an adjective. I believe it was the first we saw in which le- appeared before something that appeared to to have nothing nomial in it at all. I like the fact that «-slu» is included here (but not on «keltsun»). It might imply a slightly different world view around potentiality and the nature of the Na'vi cosmos.

In the only conlang about which I've ever personally theorized, there is no copula for "am/is/are", only a verb of existential potential unfettered by linear time, which I like to translate in English as "becoming".



msg=186244 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-18 23:06:39 | u=1550

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Taras

Lu oeru säfpìl:

keltsun = ke letsun
ke + le* = kel* (na fì + ay* = fay* )

Tsunslu fì'u fuke?



msg=186480 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 07:38:00 | u=3863

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Mithcoriel

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8114.msg186244#msg186244 date=1271631999]
Lu oeru säfpìl:

keltsun = ke letsun
ke + le* = kel* (na fì + ay* = fay* )

Tsunslu fì'u fuke?
[/quote]

Siltsana säfpìl. Tsa'u lam eyawr.



msg=205080 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 10:50:48 | u=2788

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=8114.msg182114#msg182114 date=1271242263]
stxong - strange, unfamiliar, unknown
syen - last, final
[/quote]

So, I'm finally up to speed after my month away from, well, everything. A lot of interesting stuff has gone down, but not as much as I feared -- and this in particular caught my eye.

Why? Because now I can finally(!) do this:

"Taw, syena pxawpa. Ayfì'u lu sìsop tawsìpä Enteprayzì. Tseyä mrra zìsìtä tìkangkem: steftxaw stxonga hifkeyit amip; fwew mipa tìreyit sì mipa ayolo'ti; nìtstew kä tsengne a kea tawtute ke kalmä tsane."

;D



msg=205157 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 13:47:32 | u=3876

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Aysyal

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=8114.msg205080#msg205080 date=1273229448]
"Taw, syena pxawpa. Ayfì'u lu sìsop tawsìpä Enteprayzì. Tseyä mrra zìsìtä tìkangkem: steftxaw stxonga hifkeyit amip; fwew mipa tìreyit sì mipa ayolo'ti; nìtstew kä tsengne a kea tawtute ke kalmä tsane."
[/quote]

You sir just won the Internet. Well, at least the part that's infested by SciFi geeks ;)

May I recommend to also post this in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/sentence-analysis/the-quoteworthy-navi-thread/]The Quoteworthy Na'vi Thread[/url]?



msg=205251 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 15:45:34 | u=985

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Nyx

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=8114.msg205080#msg205080 date=1273229448]
"Taw, syena pxawpa. Ayfì'u lu sìsop tawsìpä Enteprayzì. Tseyä mrra zìsìtä tìkangkem: steftxaw stxonga hifkeyit amip; fwew mipa tìreyit sì mipa ayolo'ti; nìtstew kä tsengne a kea tawtute ke kalmä tsane."
[/quote]
HRH, awesome! ;D now go translate all the Klingon phrases :P



msg=205310 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 16:40:05 | u=430

Re: Conceptual adjectives

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=8114.msg205080#msg205080 date=1273229448]
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=8114.msg182114#msg182114 date=1271242263]
stxong - strange, unfamiliar, unknown
syen - last, final
[/quote]

So, I'm finally up to speed after my month away from, well, everything. A lot of interesting stuff has gone down, but not as much as I feared -- and this in particular caught my eye.

Why? Because now I can finally(!) do this:

"Taw, syena pxawpa. Ayfì'u lu sìsop tawsìpä Enteprayzì. Tseyä mrra zìsìtä tìkangkem: steftxaw stxonga hifkeyit amip; fwew mipa tìreyit sì mipa ayolo'ti; nìtstew kä tsengne a kea tawtute ke kalmä tsane."

;D
[/quote]
[img]http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Short_Yeti/EpicHighFive.png[/img]



msg=205629 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 22:16:34 | u=0

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Tsamsiyu92

Stxong means strange, and the word is strange.

Strange word means strange

This one is going to be easy to remember...:)



msg=207046 | topic=8114 | board=99 | time=2010-05-10 00:38:22 | u=73

Re: Conceptual adjectives

Prrton

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=8114.msg205080#msg205080 date=1273229448]
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=8114.msg182114#msg182114 date=1271242263]
stxong - strange, unfamiliar, unknown
syen - last, final
[/quote]

So, I'm finally up to speed after my month away from, well, everything. A lot of interesting stuff has gone down, but not as much as I feared -- and this in particular caught my eye.

Why? Because now I can finally(!) do this:

"Taw, syena pxawpa. Ayfì'u lu sìsop tawsìpä Enteprayzì. Tseyä mrra zìsìtä tìkangkem: steftxaw stxonga hifkeyit amip; fwew mipa tìreyit sì mipa ayolo'ti; nìtstew kä tsengne a kea tawtute ke kalmä tsane."

;D
[/quote]

Seriously. Do you have a PayPal account? I feel compelled to give you something tangible for that!!



msg=183984 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 13:07:20 | u=4

ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

zombat

I didn't have time to make a cool bit of sentences like keyl, but here they are anyway.

kavuk - n. - treachery
fpìlfya - n. - thought pattern, way of thinking
hawng - n. - overabundance
skxom - n. - chance, opportunity
syay - n. - fate
fnu - n. - quiet, silence
ngop - n. - creation  \



msg=183993 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 13:20:21 | u=631

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]TEWTI!

Thanks so much for sharing :)

Okay, kxitx  is a surprise … and there we thought it would be a nominalisation of kerusey or something … Does that mean that there can be two possible words for »dead« now? kerusey and lekxitx?



msg=183995 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 13:22:10 | u=0

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Swoka Swizaw

Kxitx...

...wow. So much for "tìterkup."

By the way, did Frommer EMAIL these to you? Did you ask him for words?



msg=184001 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 13:36:44 | u=631

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Plumps83

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8193.msg183995#msg183995 date=1271424130]
Kxitx...

...wow. So much for "tìterkup."[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Well, it’s not out of the lexicon all together – it still means »the (process of) dying«

Yes, I was wondering (and have been asked about that by the members of my subforum) about the process of how these words find the way to you all, as well…


Any information on the stress for fpìlfya?



msg=184024 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 14:04:40 | u=4

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

zombat

All I can say for now that these are indeed from Frommer.


No idea on stress for fpìlfya, I put stress makers on where stress was given.



msg=184033 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 14:10:51 | u=1550

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Taras

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8193.msg183995#msg183995 date=1271424130]
By the way, did Frommer EMAIL these to you? Did you ask him for words?
[/quote]

Oe kop nivew ivomum fì'ut ::) Perey oel krrit a livu poru krr ::)


Aylì'uri amip irayo ;)



msg=184079 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 14:42:57 | u=0

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=8193.msg184024#msg184024 date=1271426680]
All I can say for now that these are indeed from Frommer.
[/quote]

::antsy sigh:: I've never been so irritated and giddy at the same time.

Some people here know things that they aren't telling us. I can respect that, FOR NOW. 8) ;D

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8193.msg184001#msg184001 date=1271425004]
[font=Garamond]Well, it’s not out of the lexicon all together – it still means »the (process of) dying«[/quote]

Ngay leiu.



msg=184176 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 15:55:37 | u=430

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8193.msg184079#msg184079 date=1271428977]
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=8193.msg184024#msg184024 date=1271426680]
All I can say for now that these are indeed from Frommer.
[/quote]

::antsy sigh:: I've never been so irritated and giddy at the same time.

Some people here know things that they aren't telling us. I can respect that, FOR NOW. 8) ;D

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8193.msg184001#msg184001 date=1271425004]
[font=Garamond]Well, it’s not out of the lexicon all together – it still means »the (process of) dying«[/quote]

Ngay leiu.
[/quote]

Well, suffice it to say that there are good reasons we're not telling you everything and I bet you can probably guess most of them. We're not just keeping secrets to be cool/mysterious/better than/other-laudative-adjectives-here.

[quote]No idea on stress for fpìlfya, I put stress makers on where stress was given. [/quote]
Just as a total guess I'd say stress on fpìlfya. But I have no basis for this other than "what sounds better" to me.



msg=184252 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 17:30:15 | u=1225

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

neotrekkerz

Fantastic!  Now I can finally do my favorite line from Terminator:  Ke lu syay ke'u slä fwa awnga ngop.

[spoiler]There's no fate but what we make (for ourselves).  Actually this is still a tricky little sentence.[/spoiler]



msg=184263 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 17:46:25 | u=21

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8193.msg183993#msg183993 date=1271424021]Okay, kxitx  is a surprise … and there we thought it would be a nominalisation of kerusey or something … Does that mean that there can be two possible words for »dead« now? kerusey and lekxitx?[/quote]

Well, we've been told we cannot use the affixes on our own — the precise meanings are not necessarily predictable.  I'd not expect lekxitx to mean dead in any case, but things more like mortal, deathly, etc.



msg=184372 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 19:19:33 | u=3552

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

tigermind

Tewti!  Thanks for sharing =)



msg=184383 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 19:32:00 | u=0

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8193.msg184176#msg184176 date=1271433337]
Well, suffice it to say that there are good reasons we're not telling you everything and I bet you can probably guess most of them. We're not just keeping secrets to be cool/mysterious/better than/other-laudative-adjectives-here.
[/quote]

Yes. My apologies if I seemed accusing. I'm a conspiracy buff, as of late in my life. :D



msg=184412 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 19:57:04 | u=1120

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

roger

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8193.msg184176#msg184176 date=1271433337]
[quote]No idea on stress for fpìlfya, I put stress makers on where stress was given. [/quote]
Just as a total guess I'd say stress on fpìlfya. But I have no basis for this other than "what sounds better" to me.
[/quote]

Correct: it's fpìlfya. Updated as such at Wikibooks.



msg=184424 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 20:06:10 | u=1120

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

roger

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8193.msg183995#msg183995 date=1271424130]
Kxitx...

...wow. So much for "tìterkup."
[/quote]

Who knows, there might also be a distinction between 'death' as a count noun, like 'casualty', and 'death' as an abstract noun, like 'Death'. We seem to have a similar distinction between life/lives and Life. Or maybe it's 'dying' vs. 'death' (and 'living' vs. 'life') as suggested just now.



msg=184467 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 20:37:57 | u=3863

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Mithcoriel

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=8193.msg184252#msg184252 date=1271439015]
Fantastic!  Now I can finally do my favorite line from Terminator:  Ke lu syay ke'u slä fwa awnga ngäpop.

[spoiler]There's no fate but what we make (for ourselves).  Actually this is still a tricky little sentence.[/spoiler]
[/quote]

Are you sure you can do that? In English, the word "but" also means "except for", but there are other languages (like German) where that doesn't work. So I'd be careful with just assuming it works in Na'vi too.
I mean if that doesn't work, your sentence would simply mean "There is no fate, but however, what we create for ourselves..[incomplete]"



msg=184475 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 20:46:14 | u=54

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Tiger

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and agree with Mithcoriel here.  You're using it as a preposition, but in Na'vi it does not work that way.  I think "mungwrr" would fill the role you are trying to use it as.  Also, the reflexive doesn't work there either.  That comes out as "We create us" - as in we are creating ourselves, not creating something for ourselves.



msg=184525 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 21:51:19 | u=1225

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

neotrekkerz

Mungwrr is probably a better substitute for slä there.  I'm not completely happy with it, to be honest, either way.  I also realized what you said about äp just now, so I deleted it.



msg=184578 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-16 23:19:08 | u=73

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8193.msg184263#msg184263 date=1271439985]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8193.msg183993#msg183993 date=1271424021]Okay, kxitx  is a surprise … and there we thought it would be a nominalisation of kerusey or something … Does that mean that there can be two possible words for »dead« now? kerusey and lekxitx?[/quote]

Well, we've been told we cannot use the affixes on our own — the precise meanings are not necessarily predictable.  I'd not expect lekxitx to mean dead in any case, but things more like mortal, deathly, etc.
[/quote]

I am probably the MOST guilty of this of all so this comes with a strong admonition directed at myself as well, but K. Pawl has said very explicitly to me that «tì-» «nì-» are "not infinitely productive". The things that result when they are stuck on where they are allowed grammatically does not mean that those results MEAN what one intends for them to mean. «Le-» seems a bit safer in general than the other two, but there are no assurances, and attaching directly to something like «kxitx» (which can be very abstract to start with) seems especially likely to cause ambiguities... "deadly/mortal (causing death) / "of the beyond" (after death)??" Wm. is totally correct that it could mean LOTS of different things, especially for those who perceive it as an inflection point among many across the continuum of existence.



msg=184608 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 00:02:02 | u=631

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Although I very much appreciate you telling and reminding us about that fact (I think it was said someplace else, we just keep forgetting those kind of information ;) ) – it again puts us in a position where I think we are rather constrained in our ability to use the language. Of course, it all gives the language a speciality but it kind of makes it more and more difficult to ›predict‹ (if that is even possible) what certain variations could mean. Ultimately that means that we cannot use certain variations and ›play‹ with the lexicon in a productive way but always waiting for confirmation from above … a bit sad. But we’ll see how that turns out.

Thanks again for reminding us.



msg=184627 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 00:39:38 | u=73

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8193.msg184608#msg184608 date=1271462522]
[font=Garamond]Although I very much appreciate you telling and reminding us about that fact (I think it was said someplace else, we just keep forgetting those kind of information ;) ) – it again puts us in a position where I think we are rather constrained in our ability to use the language. Of course, it all gives the language a speciality but it kind of makes it more and more difficult to ›predict‹ (if that is even possible) what certain variations could mean. Ultimately that means that we cannot use certain variations and ›play‹ with the lexicon in a productive way but always waiting for confirmation from above … a bit sad. But we’ll see how that turns out.

Thanks again for reminding us.

[/quote]

Oh, I don't mean that we should have any strict prohibition!!!  :o

I just think that when we're doing that (innovating (be it with tì-, nì-, le- or not)), we need to BE AWARE that the meaning that our mind is seeing is not necessarily the same as the meaning that the reader/listener is perceiving. It might require explanation. And, if something comes up later that locks in a different meaning, in some cases we may need to be willing to let go.

  Rutxe, salew uvan sivi nìfya ngar prrte' livu!!

I'd be shocked to hear that you've ever seen «nìfya» (especially the way I'm using it: nìfya (a) [clause] to mean roughly: "as/however _____") blessed in any way by K. Pawl, but that doesn't stop me from using it. It might turn out to be a good way to do this or it might require «fa fya'o a ______» every time? Or be something completely different (nì'i'a)...??

I wouldn't be surprised however, if many people reading it don't have any trouble at all interpreting what I intended as the meaning. Or with «nì'i'a» for that matter... but I'm not EXACTLY sure what I think that one means either.

K. Pawl invited us to HELP him with the LEP and many of those lexical items come with questions about actual relationships to existing words/grammar and some suggestions.

I'm all for PLAYING AWAY, but at the same time, not assuming that our/my version of OUR/MY game is the only way to play.  ;)



msg=184633 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 00:54:13 | u=73

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=8193.msg184424#msg184424 date=1271448370]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8193.msg183995#msg183995 date=1271424130]
Kxitx...

...wow. So much for "tìterkup."
[/quote]

Who knows, there might also be a distinction between 'death' as a count noun, like 'casualty', and 'death' as an abstract noun, like 'Death'. We seem to have a similar distinction between life/lives and Life. Or maybe it's 'dying' vs. 'death' (and 'living' vs. 'life') as suggested just now.
[/quote]

I was SO EXCITED when I saw «ke.r.us.ey» for the first time and actually made the connection to the etymology (the legwork for which had probably been done by roger, not sure...). Because the Na'vi can actually hear the voices of their ancestors, their concept of death and the afterlife might be completely different from that western concept of going to heaven or hell. We have no way to verify the existence of either (luke tsaheylu), so death is a really big deal for (some of) us.

I still want to know if the Na'vi typically go through a download process (fa tsaheylu) before 'death' (and if Tsu'tey's and Eytukan's experience of death without that opportunity somehow means that their spirits are LESS represented with the rest of the fizayu with/within Eywa). That would be very sad ("very sad only"), but possibly in keeping with the biologically based aspects of their 'religion' that we have seen. In general, the societies in which I've lived my life so far (South Carolina, Hawai'i, Metropolitan Tokyo, Northern California) think of "life" as "good" and "death" as "bad". But, perhaps it's not that way with them...

Now, I have to admit, that KXITX looks/sounds/feels pretty gnarly and perhaps it is the KIND of death that Tsu'tey and Eytukan experienced?? (or the RDA forces nìteng??). That might be very distinct from Grace's experience of *«terkup fte kivä/ftivem nìkerusey» (This is a great example of my breaking the rule/admonition that I just posted above, BTW. We have no concrete idea of what *nìkerusey might actually mean (to K. Pawl or a Na'vi (if anything)).

Many many cultures have VERY very different concepts of the afterlife than "average" Western society does just as [url=http://richarddawkins.net/thegreatestshowonearth]Richard Dawkins[/url] sees it differently than [url=http://fora.tv/2010/04/01/Six_Easy_Steps_to_Avert_the_Collapse_of_Civilization]David Eagleman[/url] (skip to #32 "Being a 'Possibillian'" after seeing the intro "Long short" (just 60 seconds long)) than [url=http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/karen_armstrong_let_s_revive_the_golden_rule.html]Karen Armstrong[/url] than [url=http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/rick_warren_on_a_life_of_purpose.html]Rick Warren[/url], etc...

I don't know PRECISELY what «kerusey» means to a Na'vi, but I really like THINKING about it.  ::)



msg=184650 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 01:43:50 | u=0

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Swoka Swizaw

@Prrton (and everyone, in general)

Sorry if this is a little beyond the topic, overall. Like I've uttered before, the reach of Eywa over Eywa'eveng is total. She is all of it. More substantial a point here than the Na'vi and their connection with Eywa, is the nature of Eywa "her"self. Is She a singularity of consciousness within Pandora or as large as the planet, itself? If she is the planet, I feel that it is the next LOGICAL step to assume that Her mind, like aether, permeates all aspects of Pandora. Ayvitra Na'viä are but Her, in more coalesced forms, both in Mind and body. Long story short, when the Na'vi die, the body falls away and the "stuff" inside just becomes one with what is there. If they use the queue, that's likened to the tunnel many see during the dying process.

The Na'vi concept of death is obviously not like that of the West. For me, the Na'vi people realize death as it is in its purest, the removal of Self from a body and the regrettable end of all connections It made while in life. That aspect's what we mourn, most of all - that someone is "gone," never to be connected with again. Sure, via their connection to their ancestors, the Na'vi don't have that, but kxitx still proves tragic...



msg=184710 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 06:46:13 | u=4754

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I think its a good thing that there is finally a unique (and very interesting) word for 'death'.

Assuming for the moment that the Na`vi are indeed like us in the sense they have body and spirit, a mechanism MUST exist to 'collect' spirits that die without a physical tsaheylu occurring. It may be that via tsaheylu is the 'peaceful' way to die and be collected by Eywa. But if tsaheylu doesn't happen, Eywa collects the soul through another means. This strongly implies that there is MUCH more to Eywa than we understand. I bet Eywa would continue to 'exist' even if all life on Pandora was obliterated. But this is best discussed elsewhere on this forum.

Disclaimer: I don't believe in Eywa, but I believe strongly that Eywa/Gaia is a very valid and functional concept.



msg=184731 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 07:33:21 | u=73

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Prrton

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8193.msg184650#msg184650 date=1271468630]
@Prrton (and everyone, in general)

Sorry if this is a little beyond the topic, overall. Like I've uttered before, the reach of Eywa over Eywa'eveng is total. She is all of it.
[/quote]

Ma tsmuk,

Ngeyä aylì'uri 'efu futa oeta ke lu ke'u tsun pivlltxe mungwrr tsaw a lu san TAM sìk. Aysäfpìl ngeyä latsu txur vay tì'i'a a ke tsatsun keng rivikx fu livatem kaw'it. Rutxe teri fra'u a ngal kame na hapxì äieyä ngeyä, spaw nìfya ngaru prrte' livu ulte mowan nìtxan livu ayral tsayvurä a nga ftxivey fte päpeng teri wotx Eywa'evengä Nawma Sa'nokäsì.

Oeri mi lu sìpawm apxay teri tìftia tsakifkeyä Na'viyä. Ulte, fra'eyngä tìusomumto tsaw a fìtxan tsräpanten lu sìprrte' le'it a txe'lanta tìsopìlä 'erong. Skxakep frato lu oe na Karyu Teyvit a lu tute ameve a poteri oe nìio pamrel soli.

Fkor lora ayu fkeyä, ulte tìngay ayralta vuruo Eywayä nìlaw awnomum awngaru livu nìwotx! ;D

[spoiler]Brother,

I feel that there is nothing I can say about your comments other than "OK." Your ideas seem strong and intractably resolute to the last. Please believe as you like regarding everything that you see as an aspect of your spiritual vision, and may you adore the meanings in the tales with which you choose to indulge yourself regarding the cosmos of Pandora and the Great Mother.

For me there are still many questions regarding the natural science of the Na'vi's world. And, what is so interesting more than knowing every answer are the little pleasures that unfold from the heart along the journey. I am likely most similar to Teacher David who is the 2nd person about whom I wrote above.

To each his or her own, and may we all be illuminated by the truth of the meanings behind the story of Eywa![/spoiler]



msg=184933 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 13:37:37 | u=0

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8193.msg184731#msg184731 date=1271489601]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8193.msg184650#msg184650 date=1271468630]
@Prrton (and everyone, in general)

Sorry if this is a little beyond the topic, overall. Like I've uttered before, the reach of Eywa over Eywa'eveng is total. She is all of it.
[/quote]

Ma tsmuk,

Ngeyä aylì'uri 'efu futa oeta ke lu ke'u tsun pivlltxe mungwrr tsaw a lu san TAM sìk. Aysäfpìl ngeyä latsu txur vay tì'i'a a ke tsatsun keng rivikx fu livatem kaw'it. Rutxe teri fra'u a ngal kame na hapxì äieyä ngeyä, spaw nìfya ngaru prrte' livu ulte mowan nìtxan livu ayral tsayvurä a nga ftxivey fte päpeng teri wotx Eywa'evengä Nawma Sa'nokäsì.

Oeri mi lu sìpawm apxay teri tìftia tsakifkeyä Na'viyä. Ulte, fra'eyngä tìusomumto tsaw a fìtxan tsräpanten lu sìprrte' le'it a txe'lanta tìsopìlä 'erong. Skxakep frato lu oe na Karyu Teyvit a lu tute ameve a poteri oe nìio pamrel soli.

Fkor lora ayu fkeyä, ulte tìngay ayralta vuruo Eywayä nìlaw awnomum awngaru livu nìwotx! ;D

[spoiler]Brother,

I feel that there is nothing I can say about your comments other than "OK." Your ideas seem strong and intractably resolute to the last. Please believe as you like regarding everything that you see as an aspect of your spiritual vision, and may you adore the meanings in the tales with which you choose to indulge yourself regarding the cosmos of Pandora and the Great Mother.

For me there are still many questions regarding the natural science of the Na'vi's world. And, what is so interesting more than knowing every answer are the little pleasures that unfold from the heart along the journey. I am likely most similar to Teacher David who is the 2nd person about whom I wrote above.

To each his or her own, and may we all be illuminated by the truth of the meanings behind the story of Eywa![/spoiler]
[/quote]

I am sorry if my comment came off as me pushing something on you, or anyone else. :-[ It was not really directed AT you; just to your comment. I do feel the way I do, but can only unto a point that it remains abstract. I concede to the fact that this place is more for the "real" discussions about Avatar. My apologies, all around. :)



msg=185077 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 18:30:03 | u=73

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Prrton

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8193.msg184933#msg184933 date=1271511457]

I am sorry if my comment came off as me pushing something on you, or anyone else. :-[ It was not really directed AT you; just to your comment. I do feel the way I do, but can only unto a point that it remains abstract. I concede to the fact that this place is more for the "real" discussions about Avatar. My apologies, all around. :)
[/quote]

Oeri kea zoploti tolel! Ulte, rutxe, spivaw futa oeta kepor ke'uot lezoplo ke kolan kaw'it nìteng. Txo frapor ke lu fpìlfya peyä, fìtsengìri skxakep kepo ke za'atsu fte pivängkxo fu aysäfpìlit ’awstengyivem ulte ke latsu fayteleru kea ral a tsranten nìngay.

[spoiler]No offense taken by me! And, please believe that nothing offensive was intended from me to anyone either. If everyone didn't have his or her own perspective, there'd likely be nobody here chatting or sharing ideas and none of these subjects would have any real meaning.[/spoiler]



msg=185182 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-17 21:06:13 | u=0

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Swoka Swizaw

Tslolam, ma Prrton. Nìngay, kea swaw swey ke lu kawkrr a krr fko fmi pivängkxo teri hem Eywayä, srak?
Understood, Prrton. Honestly, it's never easy when one tries to discuss the "will of Eywa," no? ::)



msg=185478 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-18 11:32:04 | u=132

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Taronyu

Do we know of any changes in vowel quality that occur? Especially between glides: syay would seem to me to be hard to say and keep the æ as it is.



msg=187193 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 20:06:52 | u=4754

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I noticed that no one has picked up on the re-introduction of [p]tsaheylu[/p]. For a long time, this was in the various dictionaries as meaning 'bond (neural)'. Then one day, the word 'neural' disappeared, and this has been carried through several iterations of Taronyu's (and probably others as well) dictionary. I wonder if Pawl brought this back up to point out that the word 'neural' still really needed to be there. It also makes me wonder of there is a word for a non-neural bond, like one might have with a pet (as opposed to the bond between a man and a woman, or other 'human'). I have been calling a strong bond with an animal friend 'virtual tsaheylu'. (Is there a good Na`vi word choice for 'virtual'?)



msg=187281 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 21:23:42 | u=132

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Taronyu

That disappearance is my fault. I confess, I don't like the word neural. But I decided to bring it back in.



msg=187308 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 21:48:31 | u=1120

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

roger

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=8193.msg185478#msg185478 date=1271590324]
Do we know of any changes in vowel quality that occur? Especially between glides: syay would seem to me to be hard to say and keep the æ as it is.
[/quote]

We have that vowel in "shy", which is pretty close to being a homonym with "syay".



msg=187497 | topic=8193 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 03:38:45 | u=73

Re: ayoeru mipa aylì'u nì'ul lu, tewti!

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=8193.msg187308#msg187308 date=1271713711]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=8193.msg185478#msg185478 date=1271590324]
Do we know of any changes in vowel quality that occur? Especially between glides: syay would seem to me to be hard to say and keep the æ as it is.
[/quote]

We have that vowel in "shy", which is pretty close to being a homonym with "syay".
[/quote]

I agree. I don't see why the «sy-» would need to mod «-ay» in any way.



msg=186163 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-18 20:49:10 | u=1120

ayyerik

roger

Asked about the plural of yerik. Sounds as though geminate consonants are not phonetically distinctive, but that he prefers to preserve them in the orthography.

[quote author=Frommer]I've gone back and forth on that one, but I ultimately decided on ayyerik. I don't think the distinction has much consequence for the spoken language--ayyerik and ayerik would sound pretty much the same--so it's really a matter of spelling conventions. I prefer ayyerik because it clearly identifies the plural marker--cf. (1) ayyerik ayawne, and (2) ayerik ayawne. (2) would be harder on readers--in the first word, they'd have to recognize the a as a truncated plural marker, while in the second, it's the "modifier a." So I prefer (1).[/quote]

I assume then that ayyerik would be pronounced [a.ye.rik] rather than [ay.ye.rik] or [ay.e.rik], but that's just a guess.



msg=186176 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-18 21:02:45 | u=1550

Re: ayyerik

Taras

Irayo, sar lì'ut a san ayyerik sìk ko! ;)



msg=186217 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-18 21:56:48 | u=984

Re: ayyerik

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]What about fay+, still fayyerik?



msg=186221 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-18 22:08:00 | u=1550

Re: ayyerik

Taras

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8280.msg186217#msg186217 date=1271627808]
[font=Book Antiqua]What about fay+, still fayyerik?
[/quote]

Skxakep srane, fpìl oe...
Probably yes, I think...



msg=186235 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-18 22:55:59 | u=3863

Re: ayyerik

Mithcoriel

[quote author=roger link=topic=8280.msg186163#msg186163 date=1271623750]
I assume then that ayyerik would be pronounced [a.ye.rik] rather than [ay.ye.rik] or [ay.e.rik], but that's just a guess.
[/quote]

??? Why are you assuming it will be pronounced [a.ye.rik] when Frommer did not leave the Y away? Wouldn't it then make more sense to pronounce it [ay.ye.rik] ?



msg=186264 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-18 23:39:00 | u=1120

Re: ayyerik

roger

I'm not clear on that. He appears to be saying that it doesn't really make any difference, whereas in languages such as Arabic which contrast y and yy this makes a huge difference, implying that there isn't a phonemic difference in Na'vi. But if two kays or tees come together, they'd be pronounced double as in English, not reduced to one the way vowels are. So I don't know. We really only have an answer for orthography.



msg=186375 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 02:46:53 | u=54

Re: ayyerik

Tiger

It seems like a.ye and ay.e would be pronounced subtly differently in Na'vi (While ay.ye would be pronounced like ay.e) so why do you think it would be a.ye rather than ay.e?

And does this mean he's finally starting to get back to some of the piled up emails?  Perhaps we'll have an answer to the questions from the community I sent off awhile ago.



msg=186428 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 04:43:19 | u=1120

Re: ayyerik

roger

Yes, he maintains a distinction between /ay.e/ and /a.ye/, but says there's no real difference between those and /ay.ye/. As I said, it's mostly an answer to the orthography.



msg=186729 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 15:05:07 | u=0

Re: ayyerik

Swoka Swizaw

Just to put another word out there: Ayyayo (birds). ;D




msg=186856 | topic=8280 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 16:16:59 | u=430

Re: ayyerik

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8280.msg186375#msg186375 date=1271645213]
It seems like a.ye and ay.e would be pronounced subtly differently in Na'vi (While ay.ye would be pronounced like ay.e) so why do you think it would be a.ye rather than ay.e?
[/quote]

This would be my guess as well.



msg=186278 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-18 23:53:48 | u=1120

days of the week

roger

[quote author=Frommer]For the days of the week, I've decided to keep it simple and do what many languages do: just go with First Day, Second Day, etc. The ordinals are simply attached to trr, but without the modifying a. So:

Trr'awve 'Sunday'
Trrmuve 'Monday'
Trrpxeyve 'Tuesday'
Trrtsìve 'Wednesday'
Trrmrrve 'Thursday'
Trrpuve 'Friday'
Trrkive 'Saturday'

Stress is on the second syllable in all cases.

Note the contrast between Trrmuve 'Monday' and trr amuve (or muvea trr) 'second day' (e.g., the second day of a trip).[/quote]

So you're a bit out of luck if your language is Russian or Chinese, but okay otherwise.



msg=186283 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 00:01:31 | u=0

Re: days of the week

Swoka Swizaw

Trrmrrve...OI.

I gotta say that this is interesting. And it seems like something a Tawtute would derive. No offense in ANY way to Karyu Pawl.



msg=186284 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 00:02:30 | u=1550

Re: days of the week

Taras

Tewti! Irayo, txantsana fmawn ;)



msg=186289 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 00:21:01 | u=984

Re: days of the week

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]I am starting my week with monday. :-p



msg=186370 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 02:27:50 | u=3552

Re: days of the week

tigermind

I'm gonna choose to see this as "Na'vi for speaking on Earth."  I see no necessity for Na'vi life on Pandora to be split into weeks, let alone 7-day weeks.



msg=186373 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 02:36:02 | u=54

Re: days of the week

Tiger

Right this is the sort of thing that would probably come up through tawtute influence, so it seems like the choices are something like this or loan words.  And given the choice, this does seem like the better option.



msg=186381 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 03:10:46 | u=1317

Re: days of the week

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

I think we should request seabass err payoang to change the days of the week on the calander.



msg=186383 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 03:11:08 | u=4754

Re: days of the week

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

This is on the same level as the color debate (With all due respect to K. Pawl, who i think realizes that there is a place for some common ground between our world and Pandora). We don't even really know what a week, a month, or a year is, and Pandora being a moon probably complicates this picture. Nevertheless, this is useful conversationally, as the day of the week is usually a pretty important thing, at least in our lives.



msg=186427 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 04:41:32 | u=1120

Re: days of the week

roger

Yes, presumably he means the Babylonian-derived week, which isn't even universal on present-day Earth.



msg=186881 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 16:30:55 | u=430

Re: days of the week

TehMightyPirate

Hmmm, very interesting. I agree with what people have said, this seems like a linguistic thing used by Na'vi to translate tawtute days into their language or vise-versa. I think it would be up to Cameron or one of the people under him who has information on Pandora's orbit to decide what the Na'vi use to describe future days beyond more than a handful of days.

As a guess I would say that they would take the planetary orbits and from there derive how long a year is (which would probably be the time for Polyphemus (sic?) to orbit the binary stars) and I would guess a Na'vi "month" would be the time it takes Pandora to orbit Polyphemus. Somehow I doubt a week would be something the Na'vi would have since, due to their less scientific nature, they wouldn't care much for dividing up months or even years that precisely.

Anyway, no matter what, for what we use the language for, this is extremely useful. Irayo!



msg=187172 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 19:52:12 | u=4754

Re: days of the week

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8295.msg186881#msg186881 date=1271694655]
Hmmm, very interesting. I agree with what people have said, this seems like a linguistic thing used by Na'vi to translate tawtute days into their language or vise-versa. I think it would be up to Cameron or one of the people under him who has information on Pandora's orbit to decide what the Na'vi use to describe future days beyond more than a handful of days.[/quote]

Tawtute days would be fairly meaningless on Pandora unless the Pandoran system behaves very close to earth.

[quote author=Ftiafpi]As a guess I would say that they would take the planetary orbits and from there derive how long a year is (which would probably be the time for Polyphemus (sic?) to orbit the binary stars) and I would guess a Na'vi "month" would be the time it takes Pandora to orbit Polyphemus. Somehow I doubt a week would be something the Na'vi would have since, due to their less scientific nature, they wouldn't care much for dividing up months or even years that precisely.[/quote]

I looked at the orbits of large satellite around our gas giants, and the period spans from somewhat over a day to about 16 days. Jupiter and Saturn are very similar in this regard. So, a seven day orbit is entirely plausible. Assuming that Pandora's rotational period is clase to 24 hours, there could be normal 'days' and 'weeks' there. The interesting problem though is that there would be a period in each planetary orbit where the night would be much longer. This is due to the moon pasing behind the planet, and would be the normal case, as most moons orbit a planet's equator. But if Polyphemus is significantly tilted with respect to the ecliptic, and so is Pandora (And images of the sky suggest that Pandora's orbit is unusual), there are possible orbits that could result in days and nights being consistently the same length. That said, the ASG strongly implies and day lengths are not all similar, and that dark nights are uncommon. This adds credance to the day/night periods as varying significantly in the course of a 'week'.

Month and year would be trickier. There really is no 'month' period that easy to define unless orbital precession results in a regularly varying day/night schedule that is longer that a 'week' and significantly shorter than a 'year'. A 'year' could be defined as either a regularly repeating pattern of stars in the night sky, or else, a third, even longer period of day/night lengths.

Yes, I agree. JC will need to explain this to us so we can understand!

[quote author=Ftiafpi]Anyway, no matter what, for what we use the language for, this is extremely useful. Irayo!
[/quote]

Irayo nìteng!




msg=187344 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 22:19:47 | u=5561

Re: days of the week

Mjllonir

Quite interesting he gave us these meanings for the days of the week. As mentioned by others above, he converted these days according to our time, which we don't even know what a day and night is on Pandora, how many days, weeks and months are there on the little blue moon, and + what is the time related to, around the star or around the planet?



msg=187378 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-19 23:20:54 | u=1120

Re: days of the week

roger

I think it's intended to make the language more practical for us. People are writing in Na'vi, and either use the English names, or make s.t. up. We don't have any problem saying 20th of the month, so why not the 3rd of the week?



msg=187446 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 01:18:47 | u=73

Re: days of the week

Prrton

I also think that it's fine for us to have "nicknames" for the days if we choose to. They'll only be relevant/meaningful if people USE them, of course. There will always be something official for us to fall back on now that K. Pawl has made a proclamation. I had suggested themes previously that roughly map to generalities about how it *feels* to go through a work week. The problem with that is that the workweek is not universal. It starts at any point from Friday to Monday depending on which country/culture one might be from. I think that nicknaming days after Pandoran flora/fauna is also a somewhat interesting approach. We don't know enough about Pandoran astronomy/cosmology to try to map anything directly to the 'Rrtan concepts embedded in our day names in the West (IMO).

I have to agree that it seems/feels to me as well that *my* week starts on Monday. I'll always have to "do the math" to make sure I'm talking about the right day in Na'vi.

  ;)



msg=187462 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 01:42:06 | u=1120

Re: days of the week

roger

Except for Russian and Chinese, and cultures influenced by them, the week starts on Sunday. That derives from Judaism (and from it Xanity and Islam) and has nothing to do with the work week.



msg=187490 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 03:09:05 | u=4754

Re: days of the week

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Our 7 day week may be based on creation stories, or on the lunar cycle. (I week is 1/4 of the 28 day lunar cycle). Months are loosely based on the lunar cycle as well, but are longer because the earth does not orbit the sun in even lunar cycles. As far as I know, all cultures use a 7 day week, regardless f where they believe it begins.



msg=187503 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 03:52:15 | u=73

Re: days of the week

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=8295.msg187462#msg187462 date=1271727726]
Except for Russian and Chinese, and cultures influenced by them, the week starts on Sunday. That derives from Judaism (and from it Xanity and Islam) and has nothing to do with the work week.
[/quote]

TECHNICALLY the weeks may may begin on Sunday, but [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workweek]pragmatically they shift[/url] (a LOT). Next time you're around a Mac, take a look at the Preferences settings in iCal. They didn't build in that functionality for nothing. The way the application is constructed allows for the linguistic strings to be localized and the same piece of software can then works globally.

[img]http://www.alex-betty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/ical-birthdays.png[/img]



msg=187587 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 07:31:46 | u=1120

Re: days of the week

roger

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=8295.msg187490#msg187490 date=1271732945]
Our 7 day week may be based on creation stories, or on the lunar cycle. (I week is 1/4 of the 28 day lunar cycle). Months are loosely based on the lunar cycle as well, but are longer because the earth does not orbit the sun in even lunar cycles. As far as I know, all cultures use a 7 day week, regardless f where they believe it begins.
[/quote]

The 7-day week is actually limited, though widespread due to the European and Arab conquests. Japan still divides the month into ten-day thirds. For many African states, the week is defined by market day, which may be every 4th or 5th day. Most if not all nations now have a Judaic 7-day week as well, but it's really no more universal than the Latin alphabet or the Gregorian calendar. ~~~~



msg=187674 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 11:58:37 | u=132

Re: days of the week

Taronyu

I just want to say thanks to 'eylan ayfalulukanä for saying all of the stuff I would have said.



msg=187724 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 13:01:23 | u=1550

Re: days of the week

Taras

[quote=wikipedia]The official ISO 8601 Calendar Standard states that Monday is the first day of the week.[/quote]

;)



msg=187864 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 14:58:18 | u=3197

Re: days of the week

Tukru Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8295.msg187724#msg187724 date=1271768483]
[quote=wikipedia]The official ISO 8601 Calendar Standard states that Monday is the first day of the week.[/quote]

;)
[/quote]

Oh well, Karyu Pawl has apparently made his intentions clear, so perhaps keeping to his system would be best. If one person that uses a Sunday-First week sets something up with a person that uses a Monday-First week, well you can see where I'm going with this.



msg=188262 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 20:01:17 | u=4754

Re: days of the week

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8295.msg187724#msg187724 date=1271768483]The official ISO 8601 Calendar Standard states that Monday is the first day of the week.

;)
[/quote]

Hmmm....I wonder if ISO standards apply on Pandora? Do the Na`vi know what an ISO standard is? Do we need words for 'ISO' and 'Standard'? ;)

Pity the poor Mac users here at the station. I am the system administrator for their work stations. I am going to change their calendars to have 8 day weeks, and name the eighth day some arcane, hard-to-pronounce Na`vi term  ::) (I'll take suggestions!)

Yrayo for the kind words Taronyu!



msg=188376 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-20 21:31:20 | u=1620

Re: days of the week

dontbugme

how about trr letrrtrr ;)



msg=188656 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 07:31:37 | u=4754

Re: days of the week

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=8295.msg188376#msg188376 date=1271799080]
how about trr letrrtrr ;)
[/quote]

Very interesting..... (I wonder if a word has been suggested for 'interesting' or 'fascinating'?)



msg=188672 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 08:26:02 | u=54

Re: days of the week

Tiger

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8295.msg187724#msg187724 date=1271768483]
[quote=wikipedia]The official ISO 8601 Calendar Standard states that Monday is the first day of the week.[/quote]

;)
[/quote]And the great thing about standards is that there's so many of them to choose from!



msg=189332 | topic=8295 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 18:01:05 | u=3197

Re: days of the week

Tukru Tsamsiyu

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8295.msg188672#msg188672 date=1271838362]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8295.msg187724#msg187724 date=1271768483]
[quote=wikipedia]The official ISO 8601 Calendar Standard states that Monday is the first day of the week.[/quote]

;)
[/quote]And the great thing about standards is that there's so many of them to choose from!
[/quote]

If its supposed to be a "standard", then theoretically, there should only be one of them so as not to confuse people.



msg=188564 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 03:56:27 | u=430

Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

TehMightyPirate

Karyu Pawl has given us some more words and these answer many, many questions I've had, the chief amongst them being what does Tsu'tey say to the soon-to-be hunters in the movie when they start cheering for Jake.

But first, a story! (Since it seems to be the "thing" to do with this little lexicon updates.)

[desc=Well, in this story we see that Tsu'tey and Jake Sully are fighting.]Tse, mì fìvur ayoeng tse'a tsnì Tsu'tey sì TsakSulli werem.[/desc] [desc=Tsu'tey attacks Jake with a war cry but Jake moves away.]Tsu'teyl Tsakit 'oleko tengkrr perlltxe san wiya! sìk slä Tsak rolikx neto.[/desc] [desc="Dammit! Stop Tsu'tey! I will not fight you!" Jake says.]San Wiya! Ftang nga ma Tsu'tey! Oel ngati ke wìyem! sìk Tsak plltxe.[/desc] [desc=Tsu'tey answers with an angry snarl and attacks again.]Tsu'tey ’eyng fa san oìsss sìk ulte 'eko nìmune.[/desc] [desc=This time, Tsu'tey's strike succeeds and cuts Jake's arm.]Fìkrr, Tsu'teyä tìtakukri flä ulte mun’i Tsakä pxunit.[/desc] [desc=Neytiri screams "Oh crap! Please stop you two! Please!" to them.]Neytiri zawng mefuru san Tsa-hey! Rutxe ftang menga! Rutxe! sìk.[/desc] [desc=Nevertheless, Tsu'tey attacks again but Jake strikes him first with an exclamation of exertion.]Tsalsungay, Tsu'tey 'eko nìmune slä Tsakìl poanit takuk nì’awve tengkrr plltxe san sau![/desc] [desc=But then, Jake fell to the ground and Tsu'tey saw this.]Slä tsakrr, Tsak zolup ne kllte ulte Tsu'tey tsole'a fìkem.[/desc] [desc=He attacked with a charge but Neytiri jumped in front of Jake so that she could protect him.]Poan 'oleko fa kxll slä Neytiri spolä eo Tsak fte tsun poel poanit hivawnu.[/desc] [desc="Saa!" She said to Tsu'tey and Tsu'tey knew that she would never love him as she loved Jake.]San saa! sìk poe plltxe Tsu'teyur ulte Tsu'teyl omum furia kawkrr poan poeru ke layu yawne na Tsak poeru lolu yawne.[/desc]

[desc=If I made any mistakes I must say to you all; "sorry".]Txo oe soli kxeyey tsakrr zene oel ayngati peng san ngaytxoa.[/desc]

ngaytxoa - acknowledgment of guilt and regret - CONV
tsalsungay - nevertheless, even so - ADV
oìsss - angry snarl - CONV
saa - threatening cry - CONV
sau - exclamation upon exertion - CONV
tsa-hey - expression of warning or frustration - CONV
tse - well (sentence opener) - CONV
wiya - expression of warning or frustration - CONV
ìley - war cry - CONV


Now, some interesting details is that Frommer has told us that, with the exception of tse, ngaytxoa and tsalsungay, all of these words were created by the actors Zoë and Laz, presumably during filming. Thus, some of them don't comply exactly with the usual Na'vi phonology. As prrton pointed out to me though, there are parallels in English such as "grrrr", "hmmmm", "hrumph" and etc.

The violators are:

Oìsss (no final vowel after "s")
Saa (double/long vowel "a")
Tsa-hey (that hyphen which both prrton and I've been guessing is a slight pause as opposed to a true glottal stop)

Now, obviously we need some good parallels for these in Enlgish other than "expression of warning or frustration". Some suggestions I (and prrton as well) have are:

Oìsss - "Watch it!" or "You're pissing me off!"
Tsa-hey - "Oh crap!" or "Aw, hell!" (probably without the vulgar nature of the English though)
Wiya - "Dammit!" (again, probably without the vulgar nature)
Sau - Totally guessing at the usage here but I picture this as the grunt one makes when trying to pick up a heavy object or some similar action.

Oh, and finally, since prrton hadn't heard about it, I just want to add Frommer's official, un-official Na'vi version of LOL; [desc=From HeRangHam]HRH[/desc]. This is from the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/press/frommer-interviewed-by-david-on-youtube/]YouTube interview he did[/url].



msg=188570 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 04:02:56 | u=1317

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Tse, we've certainly been waiting long enough for some angry words. hrh



msg=188572 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 04:04:36 | u=430

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=8383.msg188570#msg188570 date=1271822576]
Tse, we've certainly been waiting long enough for some angry words. hrh
[/quote]

Yeah, I'm so glad we finally have these. Na'vi's been really lacking in conversational words/phrases and these really help fill some gaps.



msg=188575 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 04:07:49 | u=1317

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Do you know if any of these are good for happy conversations as well. Sort of like "Damn, I'm glad you got me out of there". Maybe by using "ei"?



msg=188578 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 04:08:58 | u=3051

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Goplat

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg188564#msg188564 date=1271822187]
tsa-hey - expression of warning or frustration - CONV
wiya - expression of warning or frustration - CONV
[/quote]
[desc=Do these two really have the same meanings?]Lu fìmelì'ur nìngay tenga meral srak?[/desc] (I notice we're still missing "exclamation of consternation".)



msg=188579 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 04:09:50 | u=430

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=8383.msg188575#msg188575 date=1271822869]
Do you know if any of these are good for happy conversations as well. Sort of like "Damn, I'm glad you got me out of there". Maybe by using "ei"?
[/quote]

I doubt it, these words all seem to have an inherent negative connotation to them. Perhaps they could be used playfully/sarcastically but we don't know how to do that in Na'vi yet AFAIK.

[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=8383.msg188578#msg188578 date=1271822938]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg188564#msg188564 date=1271822187]
tsa-hey - expression of warning or frustration - CONV
wiya - expression of warning or frustration - CONV
[/quote]
[desc=Do these two really have the same meanings?]Lu fìmelì'ur nìngay tenga meral srak?[/desc] (I notice we're still missing "exclamation of consternation".)
[/quote]

According to Frommer they both have similar meanings, but I doubt it's the same.



msg=188581 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 04:11:58 | u=4

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

zombat

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg188580#msg188580 date=1271823021]
[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=8383.msg188578#msg188578 date=1271822938]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg188564#msg188564 date=1271822187]
tsa-hey - expression of warning or frustration - CONV
wiya - expression of warning or frustration - CONV
[/quote]
[desc=Do these two really have the same meanings?]Lu fìmelì'ur nìngay tenga meral srak?[/desc] (I notice we're still missing "exclamation of consternation".)
[/quote]

According to Frommer they both have similar meanings, but I doubt it's the same.
[/quote]
If anything I'd say we need more ... down the road when everyone has the base vocab down.

im a big fan of wiya ... an impatient "god damnit"  or 'fuck!'



msg=188633 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 06:13:55 | u=1225

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

neotrekkerz

[quote]Tsa-hey - "Oh crap!" or "Aw, hell!" (probably without the vulgar nature of the English though)[/quote]

Now we know how to translate "continuous fire" into Na'vi when we're in battles on [desc=Enough of a geeky scifi melting pot of references?  You say maybe, I say nay!]Minbari ships[/desc].

[spoiler]If you honestly get this reference, kudos![/spoiler]



msg=188638 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 06:32:33 | u=1120

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

roger

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg188564#msg188564 date=1271822187]
The violators are:
[...]
Tsa-hey (that hyphen which both prrton and I've been guessing is a slight pause as opposed to a true glottal stop)
[/quote]

I saw this transcribed with stress on both syllables. I think that may be what the hyphen is trying to convey.



msg=188691 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 10:06:07 | u=3863

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Mithcoriel

This is cool, how the actors through improvisation added to the language. ^^
By the way:

[quote]Neytiri zawng mengaru san Tsa-hey![/quote]

Correct me if I misunderstood, but shouldn't that be "meforu"? Since she's telling them to stop, and only after the "san" it changes to "you" since she's being quoted directly, talking to them?

Do you think Oìssss could be translated as "grrr" ?

Oh yeah, another question:
[quote]Tsu'tey sì TsakSulli lu werem = Tsu'tey and JakeSully are fighting[/quote]

Is that really how you form the continuous in leNa'vi? With the word "lu"? I kind of thought the -er- would do that by itself, so that it would be "Tsu'tey sì TsakSulli werem" without the "lu"? As in "oe teraron" and not "oe lu teraron" ?

"ìley" is the actual war-cry, right? Not the name of the cry? As in, warriors would yell "ìley!!",  not that I would say "He ran toward him with an ìley" ?





msg=188766 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 12:27:36 | u=4

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

zombat

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=8383.msg188633#msg188633 date=1271830435]
[quote]Tsa-hey - "Oh crap!" or "Aw, hell!" (probably without the vulgar nature of the English though)[/quote]

Now we know how to translate "continuous fire" into Na'vi when we're in battles on [desc=Enough of a geeky scifi melting pot of references?  You say maybe, I say nay!]Minbari ships[/desc].

[spoiler]If you honestly get this reference, kudos![/spoiler]
[/quote]

Sharlin-Class ooh yea :3



msg=188770 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 12:31:01 | u=21

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

wm.annis

[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=8383.msg188691#msg188691 date=1271844367][quote]Tsu'tey sì TsakSulli lu werem = Tsu'tey and JakeSully are fighting[/quote]

Is that really how you form the continuous in leNa'vi? With the word "lu"? I kind of thought the -er- would do that by itself, so that it would be "Tsu'tey sì TsakSulli werem" without the "lu"? As in "oe teraron" and not "oe lu teraron" ?[/quote]

Right.  Lu + <another verb> is a big clue something has gone awry.  Werem alone is what's needed here.



msg=188775 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 12:35:14 | u=1550

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Taras

Txantsan, irayo ::) Oe kawkrr ke tsamun tslilvam futa Tsu'tey plltxe mesamsiyu a'ewan krr a Tsakìl ikranit stolä'nì ;) Set oel omum tsalì'ut a san oìsss sìk ulte tslam ralit ;) Irayo Karyur ngarusì, ma tsmukan ;)

================

Sawnung:

Kelaw lu oer lunit a fìtsenge ke lu san -it sìk mì lì'u a san pxun sìk:
Fìkrr, Tsu'teyä tìtakukri flä ulte mun’i Tsakä pxun.

Ulte kop kelaw lu oer lì'u a san sol. Txo fìlì'u lu san spä + <ol> sìk, tsaw zene livu san spolä sìk, kefyak? Tengtseng lu muvea kxeyey, fpìl oe: ... fte tsun poel poanit hawnu. Kxawm nìeyawr livu san fte [desc=ke omum nìngay]tsivun[/desc] poel poanit hivawnu.

================

Tslolam. Zamene oe tsive'a 'upxaret nìwotx a fì'umaw pamrel sivi fìtsenge :) San txo oe soli kxeyey tsakrr zene oel ayngati peng san ngaytxoa. ::)



msg=188797 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 12:57:12 | u=430

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8383.msg188770#msg188770 date=1271853061]
[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=8383.msg188691#msg188691 date=1271844367][quote]Tsu'tey sì TsakSulli lu werem = Tsu'tey and JakeSully are fighting[/quote]

Is that really how you form the continuous in leNa'vi? With the word "lu"? I kind of thought the -er- would do that by itself, so that it would be "Tsu'tey sì TsakSulli werem" without the "lu"? As in "oe teraron" and not "oe lu teraron" ?[/quote]

Right.  Lu + <another verb> is a big clue something has gone awry.  Werem alone is what's needed here.
[/quote]

Sorry, that was a typo, I know better than that.

[quote author=roger link=topic=8383.msg188638#msg188638 date=1271831553]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg188564#msg188564 date=1271822187]
The violators are:
[...]
Tsa-hey (that hyphen which both prrton and I've been guessing is a slight pause as opposed to a true glottal stop)
[/quote]

I saw this transcribed with stress on both syllables. I think that may be what the hyphen is trying to convey.
[/quote]

Really? Where did you see this?



msg=188803 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 12:59:56 | u=430

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=8383.msg188691#msg188691 date=1271844367]
[quote]Neytiri zawng mengaru san Tsa-hey![/quote]

Correct me if I misunderstood, but shouldn't that be "meforu"? Since she's telling them to stop, and only after the "san" it changes to "you" since she's being quoted directly, talking to them?
[/quote]
Yes, again another typo.

[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=8383.msg188691#msg188691 date=1271844367]
Do you think Oìssss could be translated as "grrr" ?
[/quote]
Yeah, I think (opinion) that this is a good translation.

[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=8383.msg188691#msg188691 date=1271844367]
"ìley" is the actual war-cry, right? Not the name of the cry? As in, warriors would yell "ìley!!",  not that I would say "He ran toward him with an ìley" ?
[/quote]
Yes, if it was the name of the cry then it would be listed as a noun as opposed to conv.



msg=188818 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 13:13:34 | u=430

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8383.msg188775#msg188775 date=1271853314]
Sawnung:

Kelaw lu oer lunit a fìtsenge ke lu san -it sìk mì lì'u a san pxun sìk:
Fìkrr, Tsu'teyä tìtakukri flä ulte mun’i Tsakä pxun.
[/quote]
Wiya! Nìmune, oeyä kxeyey. Nga lu eyawr.

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8383.msg188775#msg188775 date=1271853314]
Ulte kop kelaw lu oer lì'u a san sol. Txo fìlì'u lu san spä + <ol> sìk, tsaw zene livu san spolä sìk, kefyak?
[/quote]
Nì'ul keyey, nga lu eyawr nìmune.

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8383.msg188775#msg188775 date=1271853314]
Tengtseng lu muvea kxeyey, fpìl oe: ... fte tsun poel poanit hawnu. Kxawm nìeyawr livu san fte [desc=ke omum nìngay]tsivun[/desc] poel poanit hivawnu.
[/quote]
:( Oeyä kxeyey nìmune. Fìkem lu fwa oeru lu talun pamrel si tengkrr txon. Nga lu eyawr nìwotx.

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8383.msg188775#msg188775 date=1271853314]
Tslolam. Zamene oe tsive'a 'upxaret nìwotx a fì'umaw pamrel sivi fìtsenge :) San txo oe soli kxeyey tsakrr zene oel ayngati peng san ngaytxoa. ::)
[/quote]
Ngaru si irayo fpi ngeyä srung.



msg=188859 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 13:42:18 | u=4

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

zombat

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg188803#msg188803 date=1271854796]
[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=8383.msg188691#msg188691 date=1271844367]
"ìley" is the actual war-cry, right? Not the name of the cry? As in, warriors would yell "ìley!!",  not that I would say "He ran toward him with an ìley" ?
[/quote]
Yes, if it was the name of the cry then it would be listed as a noun as opposed to conv.
[/quote]

Futhermore, you can hear Tsu'tey yelling this a few times after Eytukan announces that he will lead the war party.



msg=188936 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 14:58:49 | u=631

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Plumps83

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg188564#msg188564 date=1271822187]
ngaytxoa - acknowledgment of guilt and regret - CONV
[…][/quote]

[font=Garamond]First of all: thanks for sharing!

Sorry for my ignorance but IANAL, what does »CONV« stand for? I thought these to be interjections – is there another term for it?

irayo



msg=189251 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 17:33:10 | u=195

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

esoanem

I think it means conversational.

In an interview recently, Frommer mentioned he'd been working on different registers so I'd think this is an example.



msg=189570 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-21 20:52:23 | u=430

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8383.msg188936#msg188936 date=1271861929]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg188564#msg188564 date=1271822187]
ngaytxoa - acknowledgment of guilt and regret - CONV
[…][/quote]

[font=Garamond]First of all: thanks for sharing!

Sorry for my ignorance but IANAL, what does »CONV« stand for? I thought these to be interjections – is there another term for it?

irayo

[/quote]
I would too have thought that ngaytxoa would be an interj. as well but whatever. As far as I know a conversational item is one that doesn't fit in any other linguistic category. Things like "hmmm", "gahhh", "yarrrr" etc. would be conversational items.

[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=8383.msg188859#msg188859 date=1271857338]
Futhermore, you can hear Tsu'tey yelling this a few times after Eytukan announces that he will lead the war party.
[/quote]
Oooo, you're right.



msg=190817 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:10:52 | u=73

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8383.msg189570#msg189570 date=1271883143]
I would too have thought that ngaytxoa would be an interj. as well but whatever. As far as I know a conversational item is one that doesn't fit in any other linguistic category. Things like "hmmm", "gahhh", "yarrrr" etc. would be conversational items.
[/quote]

We also have KEFTXO! ("How sad!" :'( ) marked from him as "CONVersational" [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/trr-rrtaya/]as of today[/url].



msg=190999 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 04:39:20 | u=631

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I saw it ;)

Thanks, ma Ftiafpi for the clarification.



msg=191043 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 06:22:47 | u=2541

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Lrrtoksì nìhawng

In your phrase, Poan 'oleko hu kxll... I think hu is used for accompaniment only. Tìkenong: Eywa ngahu. I would use fa instead.

Otherwise, this is great! It's neat to be able to "see" the movie described in Na'vi. I think I remember hearing this dialogue during the fight just like how you describe it in your narrative. Now I'm even more anxious for Amazon to gimme my dvd so I can watch it over and over and over...



msg=191165 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 13:27:44 | u=430

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Lrrtoksì nìhawng link=topic=8383.msg191043#msg191043 date=1272003767]
In your phrase, Poan 'oleko hu kxll... I think hu is used for accompaniment only. Tìkenong: Eywa ngahu. I would use fa instead.

Otherwise, this is great! It's neat to be able to "see" the movie described in Na'vi. I think I remember hearing this dialogue during the fight just like how you describe it in your narrative. Now I'm even more anxious for Amazon to gimme my dvd so I can watch it over and over and over...
[/quote]

You're right, that should probably be fa. Fixed.

I took a few liberties with the action so as to get all the words in but I tried to stay true to the movie.



msg=207006 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 22:14:33 | u=132

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Taronyu

Any idea if any of these is predominately spoken by males or females? I think that'd be interesting. We've so far had no division.



msg=207043 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-05-10 00:29:58 | u=73

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

Prrton

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=8383.msg207006#msg207006 date=1273443273]
Any idea if any of these is predominately spoken by males or females? I think that'd be interesting. We've so far had no division.
[/quote]

The questions to Cameron touched on subjects that would DRIVE this. The fact that Mo'at is so powerful and the feature of the society that Na'vi women provide for the clan by hunting equally alongside men would lead me to believe that the distinction *MIGHT* be less pronounced than in other cultures. The pronouns don't even mark gender by default. That's not to say that I feel there would be none.



msg=207183 | topic=8383 | board=99 | time=2010-05-10 04:17:17 | u=430

Re: Aylì'u nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8383.msg207043#msg207043 date=1273451398]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=8383.msg207006#msg207006 date=1273443273]
Any idea if any of these is predominately spoken by males or females? I think that'd be interesting. We've so far had no division.
[/quote]

The questions to Cameron touched on subjects that would DRIVE this. The fact that Mo'at is so powerful and the feature of the society that Na'vi women provide for the clan by hunting equally alongside men would lead me to believe that the distinction *MIGHT* be less pronounced than in other cultures. The pronouns don't even mark gender by default. That's not to say that I feel there would be none.
[/quote]

I kind of like that the language is completely oblivious to gender and the movie seems to reflect that. It's quite nice.



msg=190330 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 15:24:39 | u=21

Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

wm.annis

A chunk of words created for an Earth Day message.  Some are Prrton's creations, some Frommer's, all Frommer approved.  :)

~~~ Fmawn asawnung (Prrton) ~~~

Ma Frapo, Kaltxì

Even though he is insanely busy (will be interviewed by CNN Headline News on Thursday), K. Pawl has made the time to send everyone an Earth Day message as a Guest Author on the new Na'vi blog at MaSempul.org. It has some interesting tid-bits of information and vocabulary in it that I think you'll like.

[quote=Paul Frommer]

Ma oeyä eylan,

Fìtrrmì letsranten—Trr ’Rrtayä—new oe pivlltxe ayngaru san kaltxì sìk ulte tivìng ayngar lì’ut a tì’efumì oeyä lu lor frato mì lì’fya leNa’vi: meoauniaea. Fìlì’uä ral lu tìme’em sì tìrusey mì hifkey na Nawma Sa’nokä hapxì, ’uo a fpi rey’eng Eywa’evengmì ’Rrtamì tsranten nìtxan awngaru nìwotx.

Ngaytxoa, nìawnomum ke lolu oer nìkeftxo mì soka srr ayskxom letam fte lì’fyari awngeyä tìkangkem sivi. Slä lu oeru fmawno asìltsan: ye’rìn ’ìyi’a sänume a tsari kllfro’ oe; mawkrr layeiu oer krr nì’ul fte ngivop aylì’ut sì tsayfnesänumvit a tsun frapor srung sivi fte nivume sì ziverok nìswey.

Tsakrrvay, ayngeyä tìmweypeyri irayo seiyi oe, ulte fìtrrä ftxozäri, sìlpey oe, ayngaru prrte’ livu.

Kìyevame ulte Eywa ayngahu.

ta Pawl


[/quote]

[spoiler]My friends,

On this important day—Earth Day—I want to say hello to you and present to you the word that, in my opinion, is the most beautiful in the Na’vi language: meoauniaea. The meaning of this word is “harmony, living in the world as part of the Great Mother,” something that matters a lot to all of us for the sake of The Balance of Life on both Pandora and Earth.

My apologies: As you know, in recent days I have not had sufficient opportunity to work on our language. But I have some good news. My teaching responsibilities will soon end; after that I will have more time to create words and the kinds of lessons that can help everyone best learn and remember.

In the meantime, I thank you for your patience, and I hope you enjoy today’s celebration.

Goodbye and Eywa be with you.

Paul[/spoiler]

The audio is here and you can download it and listen over and over again while your DVD and/or Blu-Ray players are "rewinding."  ;)

 [url=http://masempul.org/blog/]http://masempul.org/blog/[/url]

 Tstxo postìyä lu «Trr ’Rrtayä»

fìFtxozä leFpom!

ta Prrton

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

meoauniaea harmony, living at one with nature N
rey'eng The Balance of Life N
me'em harmony (general sense) N
 
fnel (fne-) kind, type N/PReN
Fnel can stand alone or work with
another noun in the genitive to
to show the relationship:
tsafnel syulangä = "that kind of flower".
Fne- (does not cause lenition) does the
same thing as a PREnoun:
tsafnesyulang = "that type of flower".
K. Pawl is thinking about how to flesh
out all of the permutations with fra-, me-,
pxe-, and the ramifications of constructs
with the indefinite suffix -o, etc. For the
time being, the following are approved:
  - fìfne-, fayfne-
  - tsafne-, tsayfne-
Note also: fne- ekxan »»» fnekxan
 
fnepe / pefnel which kind Q
 
zerok remember V    (z•er•ok)
tswa' forget V    (tsw••a')
 
'efu feeling N
  tì'efumì oeyä in my opinion PHRS
 
maweypey be patient V    (maweyp••ey)
  tìmweypey patience N
  lemweypey patient ADJ
  nìmweypey patiently ADV
 
tsakrrvay until then, in the meantime ADV
 
ohakx hungry ADJ
  tìohakx hunger N
  ’efu ohakx be hungry PHRS
tsyosyu food made from flour N
vey food of animal origin; flesh N
 
Fìtrr lu trrpeve? What day is it today? Q
 
pxeSrrmrrvam Thursday of 3 weeks previous N/ADV
 meSrrmrrvam Thursday of 2 weeks previous N/ADV
   Trrmrrvam Thursday of the previous week N/ADV
     Trrmrrve Thursday (of the current week) N/ADV
       Trrmrrvay Thursday of the next week coming up N/ADV
         meSrrmrrvay Thursday of 2 weeks out N/ADV
           pxeSrrmrrvay   Thursday 3 weeks out N/ADV
(standard paradigm for all days)
If it is Friday or Saturday and one wants to
reference Sunday coming up in one or two
days, it is fine to simply say Trr'awve if the
context is made clear by a verb tense, etc.
 
pxiswawam just a moment ago ADV
  pxiset right now ADV
    pxiswaway in just a second from now ADV
     pxiye'rìn immediately (but not as soon as pxiswaway)   ADV
 
pxisre right before ADP+
pximaw right after ADP-
 
sok recent ADJ
’awlie once (in the past) ADV
Unlike 'awlo, melo for instances that
may occur now or in the future,
'awlie refers to instances (1 specifically)
in the past. The ramifications for
extension to reference general experience
in the past (et al) are under consideration by
Karyu Pawl.
 
kxey incorrectness, mistakeness N
  kxey si mess up / to foul / do wrong V
  ngaru tìkxey You're wrong. PHRS
 
yawr correctness N
  ngaru tìyawr You're right. PHRS
 
keteng difference N
 
fpomtokx health (physical) N
 lefpomtokx healthy ADJ
 kelfpomtokx unhealthy ADJ
keftxo unhappy, upset, How sad! ADJ, CONV
  nìkeftxo unfortunately, sadly ADV
sraw painful ADJ
  sraw pain N
 
txampxì majority, most, large part N
 
vurvi summary, synopsis N
numvi lesson N
-vi is in the broad sense a marker
for terms that are in some way in a
diminutive relationship to a "larger"
concept, but there is no 100% standard
expectation for what the term in -vi will
mean. (cf: tì-, nì- (and to an extent le-))
 
letam sufficient ADJ
letsranten important ADJ
 
swey optimally, best ADV
pxi especially, pointedly, unambiguously ADV
Note that nìpxi implies a sense of inten-
sification, focus, clarity and not the adjectival
sense of "being sharp" per se.



msg=190388 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 16:30:09 | u=0

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Swoka Swizaw

Jeezus Christ Monkeyballs.

This is HUGE. Meoauniaea - finally. Hooray for Earth Day.



msg=190396 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 16:36:55 | u=631

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I can only second that!!! ;D

Thanks sooooo much for sharing – finally words for »forget« and »remember« … lu fì’u na fraftxozä ’awsiteng ;D

txana irayo

edit: just two questions to start with (I know I’m insufferable ;D )
I presume »BW« = Prrton
What’s »PReN«?



msg=190415 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 16:47:03 | u=21

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8455.msg190396#msg190396 date=1271954215]What’s »PReN«?
[/quote]

Prenoun (not pronoun), I suspect — things like fì-, tsa-, pe- and so on — modifiers that are attached to their noun.  It's a term used a lot in Algonquian linguistics, but I've used it in email to Pawl in regard to these affixes in Na'vi.



msg=190509 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 17:50:17 | u=631

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Thanks … never heard of this classification but if it’s used … ’uo nivume fratrr ;)

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8455.msg190330#msg190330 date=1271949879]
pxisre; right before; ADP; BW
pximaw; right after; ADP; BW[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Am I right in suspecting that these adpositions behave like their originals? sre+ and maw– and that they are to be understood temporally?



msg=190529 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 18:03:18 | u=1120

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

roger

Typo in syllabification of sänumvi.



msg=190541 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 18:14:20 | u=984

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]awlie was given as ’awlie (Ɂaw.ˈli.ɛ) [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/]here[/url] – so no glottal stop then?



msg=190553 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 18:22:56 | u=1120

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

roger

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8455.msg190541#msg190541 date=1271960060]
[font=Book Antiqua]awlie was given as ’awlie (Ɂaw.ˈli.ɛ) [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/]here[/url] – so no glottal stop then?
[/quote]
No, just a typo. Initial apostrophes tend to get lost when using spread sheets.



msg=190562 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 18:26:28 | u=1120

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

roger

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8455.msg190509#msg190509 date=1271958617]
[font=Garamond]Am I right in suspecting that these adpositions behave like their originals? sre+ and maw– and that they are to be understood temporally?
[/quote]

I would assume that they are temporal, since Na'vi doesn't have much temporal-spatial metaphor. Good question as to whether pxisre causes lenition. I can only assume it does.



msg=190572 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 18:31:38 | u=1225

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

neotrekkerz

Too weird.  I always thought meoauniaea would be a good word for harmonious, and there it is as harmony.



msg=190584 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 18:36:31 | u=3552

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

tigermind

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=8455.msg190572#msg190572 date=1271961098]
Too weird.  I always thought meoauniaea would be a good word for harmonious, and there it is as harmony.
[/quote]

Kxawm latsu ngaru tsaheylu hu Karyu Pawl ulte fì'ut ke amomum...

Edit:  In retrospect, tsaheylu is not a good stand-in for references to being [desc=on account of the whole tìmuntxa thing...]psychic[/desc].  Fì'uri ngaru tsap'alute si oe.



msg=190630 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 19:02:17 | u=3863

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Mithcoriel

You know, Meoauniaea could be an entire chorus for a song. ^^



msg=190675 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 19:51:08 | u=1225

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

neotrekkerz

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8455.msg190584#msg190584 date=1271961391]
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=8455.msg190572#msg190572 date=1271961098]
Too weird.  I always thought meoauniaea would be a good word for harmonious, and there it is as harmony.
[/quote]

Kxawm latsu ngaru tsaheylu hu Karyu Pawl ulte fì'ut ke amomum...

Edit:  In retrospect, tsaheylu is not a good stand-in for references to being [desc=on account of the whole tìmuntxa thing...]psychic[/desc].  Fì'uri ngaru tsap'alute si oe.
[/quote]

hrh!

EDIT:  [quote]pxiswaway; in just a second from now; ADV; BW[/quote]

Is it me or would this make a great stock phrase for "Just a second!/Hold on!"?



msg=190701 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 20:25:49 | u=4754

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Some very interesting words in there! I like the word for hunger ohakx, it has a cool sound to it. The presence of tsyosyu confirms a theory that has was discussed at length during the LEP about the existence of bread-like foods. The words for weeks past and future strongly imply that there is indeed a seven day cycle of some sort on Pandora.

Thanks K. Pawl for the new words, and W. Annis for quickly getting them listed here.



msg=190809 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:04:08 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

I think that all of your questions are now answered by the annotations that I've finally found the time to make in the original posting. If I've missed something, please let me and if I can provide insight, I certainly will try.

Happy Earth Day!

And, if you'd like to respond to K. Pawl, you can do it on the pìlok lemokri (kop fa pamrel (nìNa'vi)).

Also, if anyone wants to guest post there (with a verbal message, or even just one in writing), please let me know and I'll make you a pamrelsiyu lefrrtu with your own account. The whole thing is in Na'vi. That's the only rule other than the Koren a'Awve... Rä'ä tsat tswa' kawkrr! ;)



msg=190810 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:06:21 | u=0

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Swoka Swizaw

I've written this in another place, but I feel is appropriate here. 'Tis my theory of another use for "-vi" that we've already seen.

If it is what I think it is, then we COULD render the word "vitra" as a c.w. of "vi-" and a contraction of tirea. All together, a soul is a small piece of [overall] spirit. (Note: I only mean this from an etymological perspective and NOT one of spiritual discussion.)



msg=190823 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:24:36 | u=1120

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

roger

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=8455.msg190701#msg190701 date=1271967949]
The words for weeks past and future strongly imply that there is indeed a seven day cycle of some sort on Pandora.
[/quote]

I doubt it. I think this is just for humans to function, like the word for computer.

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8455.msg190810#msg190810 date=1271973981]
If it is what I think it is, then we COULD render the word "vitra" as a c.w. of "vi-" and a contraction of tirea. All together, a soul is a small piece of [overall] spirit.
[/quote]

"Vitraya" was one of Cameron's words. But this would be a great post-hoc etymology. I've suggested it to Paul.



msg=190825 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:25:51 | u=1120

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

roger

Wikibooks dictionaries (Na'vi-Eng & Eng-Na'vi) now updated.



msg=190827 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:32:12 | u=1550

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Taras

Ke law lu oer 'awa tseng 'upxaremì:

pelun Pawl poltxe san ye'rìn 'ìyi'a sänume sìk? Pelun kea san sänumet?



msg=190830 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:34:01 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=8455.msg190675#msg190675 date=1271965868]
[quote]pxiswaway; in just a second from now; ADV; BW[/quote]

Is it me or would this make a great stock phrase for "Just a second!/Hold on!"?
[/quote]

It would work very well for that if the implied part is "I'm going to turn away now unavoidably, but I'll be right back with you"... [pxiswaway]

So more than, "Hold on" (briefly), It's "Just a second (from now I'll be back with you)". And, to me, it sounds like the person who is asking that the other wait won't be going anywhere. They just don't have full attention to provide. If the speaker were to intend to leave briefly and come back, I'd guess they'd say «Pivey hìkrr. Tätxaw (oe) pxiye'rìn.»

«Hìkrr» by itself might work very well for what you're suggesting too, but it sounds LONGER to me than «pxiswaw».



msg=190834 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:37:56 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8455.msg190827#msg190827 date=1271975532]
Ke law lu oer 'awa tseng 'upxaremì:

pelun Pawl poltxe san ye'rìn 'ìyi'a sänume sìk? Pelun kea san sänumet?
[/quote]

Taluna tsakemlì'u a lu «'i'a» ke lu lì'u a kem si nìkan. Tsasänume a K. Pawl set seri 'ayi'a nìawtu. K. Pawlìl ke sänumet 'eykayi'a.



msg=190838 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:40:20 | u=21

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8455.msg190827#msg190827 date=1271975532]pelun Pawl poltxe san ye'rìn 'ìyi'a sänume sìk? Pelun kea san sänumet?
[/quote]

'i'a is intransitive: oeyä tìrey vay set ke 'i'a but oel vurit 'eyki'a set.



msg=190844 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 22:43:03 | u=1550

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Taras

Tslolam. Oel fpalmìl futa tsatseng tsun livu lì'u a san oe :) (oe) ye'rìn 'ìyi'a sänume :-\\ Irayo

Oe skxawng lu :)

================

Oeru txoa livu. Txo aynga new, tsun sivung tìralpengit leRuski 'awvea 'upxaremì:

[spoiler=nìRuski]Мои друзья,

В этот важный день - День Земли - хочу я сказать вам "спасибо" и дать вам слово, которое по моему мнению является самым красивым словом в языке На'ви: meoauniaea. Значение этого слова - гармония и жизнь единым целым с Великой Матерью. Что-то, что для баланса жизни очень важно всем на Пандоре и на Земле.

Прошу прощения, как известно, к сожалению не было у меня в недавние дни достаточной возможности, чтоб заниматься нашим языком. Но есть у меня хорошая новость: скоро закончится обучение, за которое я отвечаю; после этого будет у меня больше времени, чтоб создавать слова и уроки такого типа, которые могут всем помочь учить и запоминать оптимально. Благодарю вас за ваше терпение до того времени.

И сегодняшний праздник, надеюсь, будет для вас радостный. Увидимся и Эйва с вами.

от Пола[/spoiler]



msg=190878 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 23:36:47 | u=5059

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

KalaKuival

Tewti! Trray oe zene nivume aylì'uti a ayoer tawnìng. Txana irayo, ma karyu! Fìtrr swey Trr 'Rrtä lameiu!



msg=190879 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-22 23:39:54 | u=430

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

TehMightyPirate

Simply amazing. I love Frommer's dedication to this language.

Anyway, back to watching Avatar :P



msg=190908 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 00:32:09 | u=984

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

okrìsti

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8455.msg190844#msg190844 date=1271976183][...]Oeru txoa livu. Txo aynga new, tsun sivung tìralpengit leRuski 'awvea 'upxaremì:

*Spoiler nìRuski
[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]
Nerume lì’fya leRuski Kemaweyanhu =)

ayoeng set eromum ral lì’uä san ’awlie sìk, talun fko syaw fìlì’uvi san -lo sìk a multiplicative numeral suffix srak?



msg=190910 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 00:35:45 | u=0

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=roger link=topic=8455.msg190823#msg190823 date=1271975076]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8455.msg190810#msg190810 date=1271973981]
If it is what I think it is, then we COULD render the word "vitra" as a c.w. of "vi-" and a contraction of tirea. All together, a soul is a small piece of [overall] spirit.
[/quote]

"Vitraya" was one of Cameron's words. But this would be a great post-hoc etymology. I've suggested it to Paul.
[/quote]

Thanks. That would be freakin' fantastic!



msg=190911 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 00:37:05 | u=1550

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Taras

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8455.msg190908#msg190908 date=1271982729]
Nerume lì’fya leRuski Kemaweyanhu =)
[/quote]

Oel nìftue fpalmìl futa tsun fko sivung sìralpengit aylì'fyayä alahe na [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/a-response-from-paul-frommer!/msg45747/#msg45747]fìtsenge[/url] ::)



msg=190920 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 01:02:16 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8455.msg190908#msg190908 date=1271982729]

ayoeng set eromum ral lì’uä san ’awlie sìk, talun fko syaw fìlì’uvi san -lo sìk a multiplicative numeral suffix srak?
[/quote]

For now we can "officially" use «-lo» productively for twice, thrice, four times, etc. but there will likely be some kind of contrast with whatever is at the hart of «'awlie» at some point, so for now it means "once in the past" and it's not particularly SAFE to extrapolate what *melie might mean.

    ;)



msg=190953 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 02:16:39 | u=1225

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

neotrekkerz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8455.msg190830#msg190830 date=1271975641]
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=8455.msg190675#msg190675 date=1271965868]
[quote]pxiswaway; in just a second from now; ADV; BW[/quote]

Is it me or would this make a great stock phrase for "Just a second!/Hold on!"?
[/quote]

It would work very well for that if the implied part is "I'm going to turn away now unavoidably, but I'll be right back with you"... [pxiswaway]

So more than, "Hold on" (briefly), It's "Just a second (from now I'll be back with you)". And, to me, it sounds like the person who is asking that the other wait won't be going anywhere. They just don't have full attention to provide. If the speaker were to intend to leave briefly and come back, I'd guess they'd say «Pivey hìkrr. Tätxaw (oe) pxiye'rìn.»

«Hìkrr» by itself might work very well for what you're suggesting too, but it sounds LONGER to me than «pxiswaw».
[/quote]

Yeah, that covers about every possible basis of what I was thinking.  Irayo!



msg=190966 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 02:42:54 | u=1317

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Huzaaa for Karyu Paul! I'm definitely looking foreword to the increase in the lexicon, just hope I can keep up.



msg=190973 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 03:03:10 | u=3552

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

tigermind

So...  what's the difference between vey and tsngan?



msg=190996 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 04:33:14 | u=984

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

okrìsti

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8455.msg190973#msg190973 date=1271991790]
So...  what's the difference between vey and tsngan?
[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]I’ve understand it as more abstract. Maybe vey is from tsngan like tsyosyu from tsyo? Pizza/Pasta and Gulyás? (kxawm oe ’erefu ohakx nìhawng :p) txon lefpom



msg=191296 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 17:23:14 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8455.msg190996#msg190996 date=1271997194]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8455.msg190973#msg190973 date=1271991790]
So...  what's the difference between vey and tsngan?
[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]I’ve understand it as more abstract. Maybe vey is from tsngan like tsyosyu from tsyo? Pizza/Pasta and Gulyás? (kxawm oe ’erefu ohakx nìhawng :p) txon lefpom
[/quote]

I'm not sure that this is CORRECT or even if there IS a "correct" for this, but this is how I personally think of it.

Syuve (stuff that's edible)

  VEY (the category of food for animal protein(? not sure about the chemistry, but whatever...))
      - tsngan leyerik
      - tsngan le______?

  FKXEN (the category of food coming from vegetable matter)
      - *sälat lerìk
      - *sälat leprrwll (NB: Other than reindeer, not a lot of 'Rrtan creatures eat moss.)

  TSYOSYU (the category of food coming from the 'flour' plant (It's not exactly like our wheat/grains))
      - *pitza le_____

I suspect that there might be another broad "food group" for liquid/gelatinous foods that might include teylu. That will be really handy for us to talk about aspic ro Rrrta.

    ;)




msg=191338 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 17:56:58 | u=631

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8455.msg191296#msg191296 date=1272043394]
I suspect that there might be another broad "food group" for liquid/gelatinous foods that might include teylu. That will be really handy for us to talk about aspic ro Rrrta.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]I’m still waiting for the fruit group … Jake is eating something like a melon or papaya … I think that’s what’s missing from the food categories.



msg=191370 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 18:30:26 | u=4

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

zombat

woot more words! I was wondering when we'd be getting new stuff

txantsan!



msg=191406 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 19:10:28 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8455.msg191338#msg191338 date=1272045418]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8455.msg191296#msg191296 date=1272043394]
I suspect that there might be another broad "food group" for liquid/gelatinous foods that might include teylu. That will be really handy for us to talk about aspic ro Rrrta.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]I’m still waiting for the fruit group … Jake is eating something like a melon or papaya … I think that’s what’s missing from the food categories.
[/quote]

I wouldn't be surpised if that thing didn't fall under FKXEN. Consider the lowly tomato. Technically a fruit on 'Rrta, but most think of it as a vegetable!!



msg=191414 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 19:16:22 | u=631

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]tse … yeah

But I’m more thinking of a fruit salad or an apple pie and so forth … I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to have tomatos in my fruit salad :P

Your pizza example is acutally quite interesting because I would only count the pizza base as tsyosyu and all the topings would be from the other categories … or there is something like a mixed category



msg=191432 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 19:39:45 | u=4754

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8455.msg190996#msg190996 date=1271997194]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8455.msg190973#msg190973 date=1271991790]
So...  what's the difference between vey and tsngan?
[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]I’ve understand it as more abstract. Maybe vey is from tsngan like tsyosyu from tsyo? Pizza/Pasta and Gulyás? (kxawm oe ’erefu ohakx nìhawng :p) txon lefpom
[/quote]

I stumbled by chance on tsngan last night, and was not previously aware of a word for 'meat'. As used today, 'meat' means specifically 'animal flesh'. However, we have other foods of animal origin, besides meat, such as eggs and milk. Interestingly, English (at least, maybe other languages do) does not have a specific term (even in scientific circles) for 'food of animal origin'. Thus, I would reverse what you said, and say tsngan is from vey like tsyosyu from tsyo.

Interestingly, 'meat' didn't always mean what it means today. At the time of the King James Bible (1611), 'meat' meant 'food', and 'flesh' meant 'meat'. To mean you were eating dinner, you would say 'at meat'.

On a tangent but related topic, most cultures have taboos about meat-eating. Here in the US for instance, horsemeat is generally taboo. However, may other cultures readily eat horsemeat. We consume a lot of beef here, but cows are sacred in some parts of India. I wonder if there are taboos in Na`vi society like that? For a possible instance, an ikran that is not bonded to someone would be fair game, but one that is bonded would be like a pet or companion. Or the case could be, since some ikran are bonded to Na`vi people, ikran is off-limits as a food source. In a broader sense, most societies have things that are 'taboo' in areas besides food. In any case, this will make me check into the existence (or proposed existence) of a word for 'taboo'.



msg=191648 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 00:19:29 | u=0

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Swoka Swizaw

Stages:

Ta'leng = skin. (This is if we want to stick to the literal meaning of "flesh" of animal origin.) ---> Vey = raw meat. (The stuff that I presume Neytiri gave Seze.) ---> Tsngan = "cooked" meat. (Sìlpey oel futa 'em ayngeyä veyit Na'vi. ;))



msg=191700 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 01:56:24 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=8455.msg191648#msg191648 date=1272068369]
Stages:

Ta'leng = skin. (This is if we want to stick to the literal meaning of "flesh" of animal origin.) ---> Vey = raw meat. (The stuff that I presume Neytiri gave Seze.) ---> Tsngan = "cooked" meat. (Sìlpey oel futa 'em ayngeyä vey Na'vi. ;))
[/quote]

Scinn & flǣsc are both distinct words (concepts) in Old English and are distinct meanings in all the languages I know. Piel/carne 皮膚or肌/肉... If anything, I'd guess that ta'leng physically covers tsngan on both living and deceased ioang/swirä and the concept of vey most strongly comes into play with food (and not the other way around). Whether that's cooked or not is likely to depend on the chef, circumstances, and pefneioangta tsavey zola'u.  ;) (I wonder what a good Pandoran hamachi tastes like...?)

We received the word tsngan before vey, but evolutionarily speaking, I know that before the «fìtxon» questions for the recent celebration of Passover, there were no terms for tsyosyu or fkxen so it makes logical sense that vey came along as a function of "fleshing out" (Ngaytxoa. I couldn't resist.) that paradigm of natural substances associated with eating/food.

In the Bible and works of poetry, the cliché "in the flesh" etc., "The Flesh" represents the physical body (of humans) metaphorically, as opposed to the sense of spirit/soul. But that is a stronger original reference to the muscle/meat than the skin (which also gets included along with bone, hair, etc... latsu wotx tokxä luke vitra.)

I doubt the Na'vi are as cultured as the French about taking it all on and clarifying it on an animal by animal basis.  ;)



msg=191747 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 10:09:57 | u=1120

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

roger

vey is a recent coinage by Paul and is glossed by him as "food of animal origin; flesh". tsngan is an older word (we don't know how old) and is glossed simply as "meat". Now, if I were to take that literally, I'd conclude that vey is any animal product used as food, such as tendon, tripe, or tongue, whereas tsngan is limited to muscle used for food and excludes tendon or tripe. (Is tongue "meat"?) But I don't know if that's Paul's intent. As for "flesh", the semicolon means that this is a second definition, not a synonym. So presumably vey also has non-food uses, the solid physical material of the body, whereas tsngan may be limited to steaks and ribs. For many people, fish is not "meat", though I'm not sure it counts as an "animal" product for them either. So perhaps teylu is vey but not tsngan.



msg=191975 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 15:01:46 | u=430

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=roger link=topic=8455.msg191747#msg191747 date=1272103797]
As for "flesh", the semicolon means that this is a second definition, not a synonym.
[/quote]

Ooo, neat, is this the first word we have that has multiple uses? It's about time IMO, I mean, I love how Na'vi is so logical but I have always been surprised by the lack of multiple use words. Good info.

Edit: Wait, what semicolon? Do you mean the coma?



msg=192161 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 17:47:31 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=8455.msg191747#msg191747 date=1272103797]
vey is a recent coinage by Paul and is glossed by him as "food of animal origin; flesh". tsngan is an older word (we don't know how old) and is glossed simply as "meat". Now, if I were to take that literally, I'd conclude that vey is any animal product used as food, such as tendon, tripe, or tongue, whereas tsngan is limited to muscle used for food and excludes tendon or tripe. (Is tongue "meat"?) But I don't know if that's Paul's intent. As for "flesh", the semicolon means that this is a second definition, not a synonym. So presumably vey also has non-food uses, the solid physical material of the body, whereas tsngan may be limited to steaks and ribs. For many people, fish is not "meat", though I'm not sure it counts as an "animal" product for them either. So perhaps teylu is vey but not tsngan.
[/quote]

Agreed that the body of payoang may not contain tsngan and it may or may not fall under vey. But, a whale-like thing could also be a payoang based on what I am guessing about the derivation. There might be a whole lot of [desc=I could never watch “The Cove”, but I'm glad the film was made and I hope it will have some impact.]tsngan/vey[/desc] going on there...?? I would (currently) think that teylu seems it could be vey more easily than tsngan. BUT, it could be neither and fall under a ketenga category at the vey level that would have it as a peer to something like 'Rrtan [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poi_(food)]poi[/url], even though it derives from a very different kind of organism.

Overall, I think for us to really understand how things might map out for the Na'vi on Pandora, we'll need another movie, or some interstitial revelations from Kämeron on the Na'vi's epicurism. I'm no "specialist" on Pandoran flora and fauna, but it seems that they may have an even [url=http://bit.ly/wuzzyline]WUZZIER line[/url] for the plant/animal distinction than we do based on how I imagine a syeptute, etc. It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me that something like that might produce *tsngan lefkxen.

Some particularly interesting wuzzy examples from awngeyä kifkey:

  - [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepenthes]Nepenthes[/url]
  - [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirobranchus_giganteus]Spirobranchus giganteus[/url]
  - [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysia_chlorotica]Elysia chlorotica[/url]

I'm also a bit curious about that second syllable of syuve. Is it related to ve(y) (implying that the Na'vi strongly identify or may have in the past identified as carnivores) or perhaps to the same concept that brings "order" to the numbers in 'awve, meve, etc... Of course, syulang may be hinting in a different (more vegetarian) direction historically... or it may just be coincidental. "Yummy" to think about one way or the other.

PS: [url=http://animal.discovery.com/animals/life/spectral-tarsier.html]This guy[/url], is the most *prodigious* carnivore left in the primate realm le'Rrta. That's quite a feat at only 15cm or so in stature. [desc=“No leaves for me, thank you.”]San rìkìri ke kin, irayo sìk[/desc].



msg=192742 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 01:46:42 | u=1120

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

roger

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8455.msg191975#msg191975 date=1272121306]
Ooo, neat, is this the first word we have that has multiple uses? It's about time IMO, I mean, I love how Na'vi is so logical but I have always been surprised by the lack of multiple use words. Good info.

Edit: Wait, what semicolon? Do you mean the coma?
[/quote]

No, there are others. Mail me to post them if I forget this evening.

No, semicolon: animal food [semicolon] flesh.



msg=192808 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 02:47:42 | u=430

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=roger link=topic=8455.msg192742#msg192742 date=1272160002]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8455.msg191975#msg191975 date=1272121306]
Ooo, neat, is this the first word we have that has multiple uses? It's about time IMO, I mean, I love how Na'vi is so logical but I have always been surprised by the lack of multiple use words. Good info.

Edit: Wait, what semicolon? Do you mean the coma?
[/quote]

No, there are others. Mail me to post them if I forget this evening.

No, semicolon: animal food [semicolon] flesh.
[/quote]

huh, in William's OP he writes a coma.



msg=192884 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 03:29:09 | u=984

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]I happened with reformatting, before it was enlisted with ; and I [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/User:Ochristi/Construction/Update_Log/2010-04#2010-04-22]noted[/url] it down this way. :)



msg=192917 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 03:53:28 | u=4754

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8455.msg192161#msg192161 date=1272131251]
[quote author=roger link=topic=8455.msg191747#msg191747 date=1272103797]
vey is a recent coinage by Paul and is glossed by him as "food of animal origin; flesh". tsngan is an older word (we don't know how old) and is glossed simply as "meat". Now, if I were to take that literally, I'd conclude that vey is any animal product used as food, such as tendon, tripe, or tongue, whereas tsngan is limited to muscle used for food and excludes tendon or tripe. (Is tongue "meat"?) But I don't know if that's Paul's intent. As for "flesh", the semicolon means that this is a second definition, not a synonym. So presumably vey also has non-food uses, the solid physical material of the body, whereas tsngan may be limited to steaks and ribs. For many people, fish is not "meat", though I'm not sure it counts as an "animal" product for them either. So perhaps teylu is vey but not tsngan.
[/quote]

Agreed that the body of payoang may not contain tsngan and it may or may not fall under vey. But, a whale-like thing could also be a payoang based on what I am guessing about the derivation. There might be a whole lot of [desc=I could never watch “The Cove”, but I'm glad the film was made and I hope it will have some impact.]tsngan/vey[/desc] going on there...?? I would (currently) think that teylu seems it could be vey more easily than tsngan. BUT, it could be neither and fall under a ketenga category at the vey level that would have it as a peer to something like 'Rrtan [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poi_(food)]poi[/url], even though it derives from a very different kind of organism. [/quote]

Whaat makes this more nebulous is that we (in English) play fast and loose with terms that could be generically described as 'animal tissue used for food'. The terms 'meat' and 'flesh' can be freely interchanged even in modern usage, but the word 'flesh' has a less 'culinary' connotation associated with it. To illustrate further, some would say flesh is reserved for muscle tissue, and the tissues closely associated with it, that make up the 'carcass' of a bird or mammal. The internal organs are feferred to collectively by terms of varying strength: 'entrails', 'viscera', or more culinarily, 'offal' or 'variety meats'. Yet, this is all grouped as 'fhesh' if you are describing a carnivore or 'flesh eater'. To them 'flesh' is any soft tissue. And for food group purposes, we can call any and all of this 'meat'.

As far as payoang goes, fish is generically classified as meat, even though we refer to fhsh flesh or muscle tissue as 'fish'. If the Na`vi have a distinction between they vey of land animals and fish, we do not yet know about it. Also keepp in mind that whales are marine mammals, and much more like a cow than an fish. So generally, the same sort of terminology is used to describe their body as you would use for a cow.

So, if I am reading this right, vey might describe the leg of a yerik that has been cut off and is intended to be used for food. At this point, it is still anatomically complete, except for maybe the skin. But once it has been further processed into pieces for eating (and presumably had any gristly parts like tendons removed), it is then tsngan But vey is not intended to refer to animal food products that did not come from inside an animal's body (necessitating the animal's death to recover it), such as eggs, milk, etc.



msg=192954 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 04:17:50 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8455.msg192884#msg192884 date=1272166149]
[font=Book Antiqua]I happened with reformatting, before it was enlisted with ; and I [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/User:Ochristi/Construction/Update_Log/2010-04#2010-04-22]noted[/url] it down this way. :)
[/quote]

Ma smuk!

I'm completely SURE that >>> I <<< and I alone am the party who is guilty of deleting the semicolon. I never knew that it carried such hefty weight and a critical role in the underpinnings of our fair language!

I'll be more careful in the future.

It likely was deleted in the process of formatting everything in tables so that it would line up better.

I will go fix it PXISWAWAY!

Oeru txoa livu!



msg=192964 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 04:33:14 | u=984

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]Oe [desc=fu fìlì’u san fpeiìl sìk lu eyawr]fpeiyìl[/desc] futa frapo tsun tìkxey sivi slä tsenge fìtsengena leiu fte awngal ’awsiteng rivun tsaykeyeyit. Tsaw fìfya leiu sìltsan. :)



msg=192983 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 05:01:15 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8455.msg192964#msg192964 date=1272169994]
[font=Book Antiqua]Oe fpeiyìl futa frapo tsun tìkxey sivi slä tsenge fìtsengena leiu fte awngal ’awsiteng rivun tsaykeyeyit. Tsaw fìfya leiu sìltsan. :)
[/quote]

Oel fpìl futa zene livu tsafya fpeiìl taluna lu tìketeng kip tsame[desc=*vowel]faypam[/desc].  ;)



msg=193008 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 05:36:28 | u=1120

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

roger

Okay, here are the defs. with semicolons in them. There appear to be three uses: marking polysemy, separating differing parts of speech, and separating glosses from explanations.

txan\



msg=193024 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 06:13:24 | u=984

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]I would add:
rusey with alive, living; [desc=it is a noun right?]living thing[/desc] ADJ, N
wrrpa outside N,ADV
and probably those combinations of prefix and tseng(e), trr, krr, etc.



msg=193027 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 06:22:23 | u=1120

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

roger

There's also

sutx  \



msg=210827 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-05-14 20:40:57 | u=5773

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

R One

Kaltxì,

The message from Paul (both audio and text) seems to have disappeared from [url=http://masempul.org/blog/.]http://masempul.org/blog/.[/url]

Did I miss something ?

/R One



msg=210838 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-05-14 20:53:13 | u=73

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

Prrton

[quote author=R One link=topic=8455.msg210827#msg210827 date=1273869657]
Kaltxì,

The message from Paul (both audio and text) seems to have disappeared from [url=http://masempul.org/blog/.]http://masempul.org/blog/.[/url]

Did I miss something ?

/R One
[/quote]

Nope. Still there. Just a lot further down the list now.  ;)

  [url=http://masempul.org/2010/04/trr-’rrtaya-2/]Trr ’Rrtayä[/url]

That was a while back.



msg=211503 | topic=8455 | board=99 | time=2010-05-15 21:42:30 | u=5773

Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä

R One

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8455.msg210838#msg210838 date=1273870393]
Nope. Still there. Just a lot further down the list now.  ;)

  [url=http://masempul.org/2010/04/trr-’rrtaya-2/]Trr ’Rrtayä[/url]

That was a while back.
[/quote]
I found it. Sorry for the trouble... Irayo !

/R One



msg=191279 | topic=8491 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 16:55:01 | u=0

Actual colors...

Swoka Swizaw

[url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/English-Na%27vi_dictionary]http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/English-Na%27vi_dictionary[/url]

Look at this page on WikiBooks that I was trolling through. Without intention to find, I found words for the rest of the rudimentary [desc=red, orange, black, and white]colors[/desc]. I will not post them, as per what I assume to be the rhetoric that "those in the know" (with NO disrespect behind my use of quotes) have about revealing things at the proper time. Considering that, I post what is freely available to anyone that stumbles upon it, like me. My apologies if this is preemptive.

Can anyone conform these??



msg=191294 | topic=8491 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 17:21:10 | u=1225

Re: Actual colors...

neotrekkerz

Since blue/green are listed together as well as red/orange, my guess is that these were the original colors that were released to us a few weeks ago.  K. Pawl has since decided to do something different for colors and I think perhaps this was not updated in the wiki.



msg=191303 | topic=8491 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 17:27:49 | u=0

Re: Actual colors...

Swoka Swizaw

Eywa! I can never catch a break. ::)



msg=191583 | topic=8491 | board=99 | time=2010-04-23 22:15:17 | u=1120

Re: Actual colors...

roger

Yeah, those should probly be considered the equivalent of animal names in the Survival Guide. Though it would be interesting if black & white at least are not retained.



msg=192999 | topic=8491 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 05:17:16 | u=73

Re: Actual colors...

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=8491.msg191583#msg191583 date=1272060917]
Yeah, those should probly be considered the equivalent of animal names in the Survival Guide. Though it would be interesting if black & white at least are not retained.
[/quote]

They may all be retained in some way, but I don't recommend setting up expectation around them in any way at this point. Perhaps tun will morph into something like the umbrella term "earth tones" and something similar will happen with ean...



msg=194085 | topic=8491 | board=99 | time=2010-04-26 01:36:37 | u=4754

Re: Actual colors...

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I am hoping that this will be like the 'days of the week' situation, and we will have something basic like what might be found in a hunter-gatherer society, but descriptive enough to represent the range of real-world colors we all encounter.

Ean for instance, is now 'blue or green'. But with the strong prevalence of cyan-like tones in the Pandoran world, I wouldn't be surprised if ean ends up meaning blue-green or cyan.



msg=191826 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 12:09:55 | u=2104

New adjectives in poetry, part I

Mirri

[desc=In the heat of night]
Mì sìsom txonä[/desc]

[desc=I can hear the song of the drums]
Oel stawm wayit ayauä[/desc]
[desc=They make soft sounds in the distance]
Sa nì'angoa pam si alìm[/desc]
[desc=The night fire was burning high]
Txonä txep narmekx nìkxayl[/desc]
[desc=But we departed to be alone]
Slä ayoerì holum fte nì'awtu livu[/desc]
[desc=He takes my hand to his lips]
Poanìl 'ärìp oeyä tsyokxit vay poanä ayseyri[/desc]
[desc=Tells me to open my eyes again]
Peng oeru san piak si menari nìmun[/desc]
[desc=His long tail grips mine]
Peyä ngima kxetsel nieiä futa oeyä[/desc]
[desc=He pushes me down onto the ground]
Pol kä'ärìp oeti nekll sìn kllte[/desc]
[desc=The beat of the drums guide our movements...]
Ayauä 'ekong fyawìntxeiu ayoeyä aysìrikx...[/desc]


I think this is as far as we can go without a word for queue ;)
Lots of thanks to roger for proofing.

Na'vi          English
'angosoft (of a sound)
kxaylhigh
ngimlong (physical length)






msg=191855 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 12:44:38 | u=54

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

Tiger

Woah!  Woah woah!  That's some pretty steamy Na'vi...

(BTW, don't think "sa" can be used there.  "Tsa'u" on it's own gets shortened to "Tsaw" not "Tsa", and the plural "saw" would be ambiguous with the plural of "taw", so I think you would probably have to use "sa'u" as the plural of "tsa'u/tsaw".)



msg=191937 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 14:42:14 | u=430

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

TehMightyPirate

Wow, that's a sexy poem there :P Very nice!



msg=191950 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 14:50:21 | u=0

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

Swoka Swizaw

That was really good, and by "good," I mean HOT. (I could read parts without having to scroll over it. So, that was good, too.)

However, we already had ngim. It was the first adjective I ever saw. Frommer used it to introduce the adjectival attributive marker for the phrase "long river." Kxayl is in the wikibooks entries.

@ Frapo alahe: There's another adjective I found there for "darkness," vawm...can anyone conform that? Or is that a color?



msg=192405 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-24 21:24:45 | u=1120

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8528.msg191855#msg191855 date=1272113078]
(BTW, don't think "sa" can be used there.  "Tsa'u" on it's own gets shortened to "Tsaw" not "Tsa", and the plural "saw" would be ambiguous with the plural of "taw", so I think you would probably have to use "sa'u" as the plural of "tsa'u/tsaw".)
[/quote]
Paul has occasionally used tsa, though more commonly he's had tsaw. I don't know if there's much difference, but of course the diff tween "it" and "that" isn't very clear in English either. The plural of course would be sa. We also don't know that taw has a plural, so that may not been an issue. And in any case, this is poetry, so you're expected to think about the words  :)

From the LearnNavi vocab ([url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Vocabulary]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Vocabulary[/url]),

[quote]tsa [ʦa] (Pron) it (inanimate). ► "For inanimate it  you shouldn't use po but rather tsa; Oel tsìme’a tsenget a tsane po karmä. "I didn't see (the place), that she was going to" [/quote]



msg=192694 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 01:01:29 | u=73

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=8528.msg192405#msg192405 date=1272144285]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8528.msg191855#msg191855 date=1272113078]
(BTW, don't think "sa" can be used there.  "Tsa'u" on it's own gets shortened to "Tsaw" not "Tsa", and the plural "saw" would be ambiguous with the plural of "taw", so I think you would probably have to use "sa'u" as the plural of "tsa'u/tsaw".)
[/quote]
Paul has occasionally used tsa, though more commonly he's had tsaw. I don't know if there's much difference, but of course the diff tween "it" and "that" isn't very clear in English either. The plural of course would be sa. We also don't know that taw has a plural, so that may not been an issue. And in any case, this is poetry, so you're expected to think about the words  :)

From the LearnNavi vocab ([url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Vocabulary]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Vocabulary[/url]),

[quote]tsa [ʦa] (Pron) it (inanimate). ► "For inanimate it  you shouldn't use po but rather tsa; Oel tsìme’a tsenget a tsane po karmä. "I didn't see (the place), that she was going to" [/quote]
[/quote]

[quote=Paul Frommer 6 April, 2010 (voluntary correction of Prrton's usage)]One little thing: for the unmarked, S-case of the pronoun, use either tsa'u or tsaw (the contraction), not tsa, which doesn't have an independent existence: fpìl futa tsaw tsun heykivangham . . .[/quote]
Based on this, I would predict «Sa'u» for line two above. It is my understanding that «tsa» can only exist inside a dependent clause as a referent back to it's primary instantiation outside. However, in *most* cases that means it would be entirely optional, right??

  Oe new tsive'a tsat a (tsa) lu ean.

I can see it being *necessary* to fill out meter in poetry, etc., but I imagine it's generally VERY rarely used. «Tsar»/«tsat»/«tsal» seem that they would be more common because the tend to do more to clarify ROLES within clauses. Am I really misunderstanding something? TsaW letsunslu lu nìwotx!  :-\\



msg=192721 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 01:21:25 | u=1120

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

roger

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8528.msg192694#msg192694 date=1272157289]
[quote=Paul Frommer 6 April, 2010 (voluntary correction of Prrton's usage)]One little thing: for the unmarked, S-case of the pronoun, use either tsa'u or tsaw (the contraction), not tsa, which doesn't have an independent existence: fpìl futa tsaw tsun heykivangham . . .[/quote]
Based on this, I would predict «Sa'u» for line two above. It is my understanding that «tsa» can only exist inside a dependent clause as a referent back to it's primary instantiation outside. However, in *most* cases that means it would be entirely optional, right??

 Oe new tsive'a tsat a (tsa) lu ean.

I can see it being *necessary* to fill out meter in poetry, etc., but I imagine it's generally VERY rarely used. «Tsar»/«tsat»/«tsal» seem that they would be more common because the tend to do more to clarify ROLES within clauses. Am I really misunderstanding something? TsaW letsunslu lu nìwotx!  :-\\
[/quote]

Hey, thanks for that! I once suspected as much, but could never confirm it, and usage seemed to point the other way. So the pronoun tsa is defective, and does not occur in the intransitive case! Good to know.

Please confirm with Paul if you can that tsa is only used in DP's. But ftu sat suggests this might not be the case.



msg=192734 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 01:30:07 | u=73

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=8528.msg192721#msg192721 date=1272158485]

Hey, thanks for that! I once suspected as much, but could never confirm it, and usage seemed to point the other way. So the pronoun tsa is defective, and does not occur in the intransitive case! Good to know.

Please confirm with Paul if you can that tsa is only used in DP's.
[/quote]

I could ask, but you'd understand the answer better undoubtedly!  ;)



msg=192779 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 02:30:09 | u=3552

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

tigermind

[desc=I might be too young for this thread]Fìkìngìri kxawm oe 'ewan nìhawng latsu[/desc] ;)

I kid, i kid...

Anyway, ma smuk, this thread makes me realize i'm completely confused about when to use fì'u vs. tsa'u.  Help?  I can start a new thread to talk about it, if that's more appropriate.

Edit: Ngaytxoa, got careless with my brackets.



msg=192790 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 02:37:06 | u=1225

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

neotrekkerz

Ma Mirri, you need to finagle more words from Frommer.  That way we get more of your poetry!  ;)



msg=192911 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 03:48:28 | u=984

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]I am wondering, if we have to expect a different adjective for the meaning of "being in a great height" than kxayl.



msg=192979 | topic=8528 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 04:49:35 | u=73

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part I

Prrton

M@ Mirri, Kaltxì!

Tewti! Sìlpey oe tsnì lu ngar ayzìsìt nìtam fte fìfya pamrel sivi!! :o Nìlaw zenatse ngaru livu yawntu a por aylrrtok seri syay. ;)

Oeru prrte' layu tsaskxom a stawm tsahapxìt aMUve ngata.

Irayo!




msg=193585 | topic=8591 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 18:22:31 | u=2104

New adjectives in poetry, part II

Mirri

[desc=Like stones against the sky]
Na ayskxe wä saw[/desc]


[desc=I put my hand on the trunk]
Oel yem tsyokx mì sangek[/desc]
[desc=This tree speaks to me when I sleep]
Fìutral plltxeie oeru tsakrr a oe herahaw[/desc]
[desc=Even today my eyes close in dream]
Keng fìtrr oeyä menari tstu si mì unil[/desc]
[desc=And I hear its voice]
Ulte oe steiawm tseyä mokri[/desc]


[desc=It was my play tree]
Tsa lameiu oeyä utral uvanä[/desc]
[desc=The other kids and I played hunters]
Lahe ayevi sì oe uvan sami na saronyu[/desc]
[desc=We dropped from high above down to the ground]
Ayoe zameiup ta'em nìkxayl ne kllte[/desc]
[desc=Howling loudly like Ikrans]
Nguway seri nìwok na ikran[/desc]
[desc=Now the tree is old]
Set utral koak lu[/desc]
[desc=The smells are old]
Ayfahew spuwin lu[/desc]
[desc=As I am old]
Na oe koak lu[/desc]


[desc=I sit down on the ground]
Oe heyn klltemì[/desc]
[desc=I need to rest]
Oe kìn tsivurokx[/desc]
[desc=Against my tree]
Txal ro utral oeyä[/desc]
[desc=For a long time]
Kip txana krr[/desc]


[desc=Its voice will guide me to Eywa]
Tseyä mokril fyawivìntxeiu oeti ne Eywa[/desc]
[desc=In my last moments]
Krr a oeyä syena swaw[/desc]


Na'vi          English
wokloud
kxaylhigh
spuwinold (not for people), former


Sadder poetry today. Many thanks to roger for proofing.



msg=193596 | topic=8591 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 18:30:45 | u=984

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part II

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]Awh, sad but nice. Irayo for the words.

All energy is only borrowed and one day you have to give it back. – Neytiri ;)



msg=193822 | topic=8591 | board=99 | time=2010-04-25 21:24:27 | u=73

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part II

Prrton

This is INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL!! on so many levels.

Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmuk!



msg=194048 | topic=8591 | board=99 | time=2010-04-26 00:44:58 | u=3552

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part II

tigermind

spuwin reminds me of ancien in French.  It would be funny if it worked the same way—i.e., on one side of the noun it takes the former meaning, while on the other side it takes the latter.



msg=194392 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-26 13:34:34 | u=2104

New adjectives in poetry, part III

Mirri

[desc=The Ambush]
Tì'eko lekavuk[/desc]


[desc=We hid in the trees above]
Ayoel ke tsawname'a kip ayutralit a io[/desc]
[desc=The battle against the skymen with metal looked auspicious]
Tìwem a wä sawtuteti a fngaphu lam etrìp lu[/desc]
[desc=The enemy moved in groups, unaware]
Kutu rerikx mì wempongu, ke kerame[/desc]
[desc=We attacked high above from the air, flying towards victory]
Ayoe 'eko ta'em ya akxayl, tswayeion ne tìtakuk asyen[/desc]
[desc=Our battlecry was loud]
Ayoeyä tìsyawìri wemä wok leiu[/desc]
[desc=But their guns of fire were louder]
Slä feyä kun txepä nì'ul wok längu[/desc]


[desc=We fell]
Ayoe zup[/desc]
[desc=Many men are no more]
Pxay sutan ke tängok ke nulkrr[/desc]
[desc=We fought with honour and bravery]
Ayoe wem meuiafa tìtstewsì[/desc]
[desc=But the metallic beasts were too strong]
Slä lefngapa ayioangìri nìhawng txur längu[/desc]
[desc=Our arrows broke on them]
Ayoeyä swizaw fwel si sìn wä fo[/desc]
[desc=Their skin was too hard]
Feyä sa'leng nìhawng txa' lu[/desc]
[desc=Ours is too soft]
Ayoeyä nìhawng hewne längu[/desc]



[desc=Now we lie low]
Set ayoe ne kllte tìm lu[/desc]
[desc=Our bodies are dirty from the earth]
Ayoeyä aysokx tsewtx lu fa kllte[/desc]
[desc=But my spirit will be cleansed]
Slä oeyä tirea laro sayei[/desc]
[desc=When I meet Eywa]
Tsakrr oe ultxarun sei Eywahu[/desc]



[desc=The metal men are coming]
Lefngapa tawtute zera'u[/desc]
[desc=They are coming...]
Ayfo zera'u...[/desc]




Thanks to roger for proofing.

Na'vi           English
hewnesoft (of an object)
wokloud
kxaylhigh
tìmlow
laroclean
tsewtxdirty
lefngapmetallic
txa'hard
fwelbroken
etrìpfavorable, auspicious



These were on my list too, but they're already in the dictionary, so I didn't use them.
piak                 open
tstu           closed, shut



msg=194402 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-26 13:46:26 | u=1550

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

Taras

Irayo, ma tsmuke ;)



msg=194434 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-26 14:16:46 | u=0

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

Swoka Swizaw

WOW...these all really seem to fit. I assume that because there are so many words here, that this is the "best for last" post? Hope not.

I have to say, though, that I dreamt up "lefngap" 20 pages ago. ;)



msg=194446 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-26 14:30:10 | u=3552

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

tigermind

Faylì'uri amip ngaru irayo seiyi oe. 

I like that, tì'eko lekavuk for "ambush"—fì'u sìlronsem nìtxan leiu.



msg=194496 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-26 15:17:57 | u=631

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]tewti! ngeyä lì’utseol ’ekong seyki txe’lan oeyä nìwin nì’ul… nìngay txantsan

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=8631.msg194392#msg194392 date=1272288874]
These were on my list too, but they're already in the dictionary, so I didn't use them.
piak                 open
tstu           closed, shut
[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Well, we had them as part of the verb constructions piak si and tstu si – could have been nouns as well, so thanks for the clarification and sharing of your wonderful poetry :)


edit: »lie low« seems to me quite an idiomatic expression – is this usage of lu ne kllte tìm from Frommer or is that your coinage?



msg=194687 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-26 17:24:43 | u=73

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

Prrton

[quote]Feyä se'lang nìhawng txa' lu[/quote]

Ma Mirri,

Txantsan pxel nga lu [desc=No, this is not canonical.]*[/desc]frafrakrr.

Slä kxawm nga zenatse nivìn [desc=“the two vowels” tsa.me+.payfam... Not canonical either]*[/desc]tsamefaypamit a len mì salì’u a lu ral teri tsa'u a tokxur lew si. Leram oer fwa meseyä mesenge näpoliä fte tsun mesat leykivatem.

  ;)

Irayo nìmun!




msg=197570 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 20:15:20 | u=2104

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

Mirri

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8631.msg194496#msg194496 date=1272295077]
edit: »lie low« seems to me quite an idiomatic expression – is this usage of lu ne kllte tìm from Frommer or is that your coinage?
[/quote]

Made that up entirely on my own. I'd think "lie low" as a metaphor is probably idiomatic, but as a physical action I don't see why it would be.

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8631.msg194687#msg194687 date=1272302683]
Ma Mirri,

Txantsan pxel nga lu [desc=No, this is not canonical.]*[/desc]frafrakrr.
[/quote]

Oel tìng txana irayo ngar taweyk aylì'u alor ngeyä ulte skxom ngal tolìng wìntxeiu oeri mìfa ayefu fa lì'utseo.



msg=197673 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 21:15:16 | u=631

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

Plumps83

[quote author=Mirri link=topic=8631.msg197570#msg197570 date=1272485720]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8631.msg194496#msg194496 date=1272295077]
edit: »lie low« seems to me quite an idiomatic expression – is this usage of lu ne kllte tìm from Frommer or is that your coinage?
[/quote]

Made that up entirely on my own. I'd think "lie low" as a metaphor is probably idiomatic, but as a physical action I don't see why it would be.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Ah, tì’eyng ngeyä oe ngaru seiyi irayo :)
I’d say it matters in that respect as down/low in this expression is an adverb – at least, as far as I understand it, isn’t it? I realise that there is a semantic difference in English between »lie low« and »lie lowly«, so, wouldn’t it then be nìtìm ?



msg=198075 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 09:21:05 | u=2104

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

Mirri

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8631.msg197673#msg197673 date=1272489316]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=8631.msg197570#msg197570 date=1272485720]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8631.msg194496#msg194496 date=1272295077]
edit: »lie low« seems to me quite an idiomatic expression – is this usage of lu ne kllte tìm from Frommer or is that your coinage?
[/quote]

Made that up entirely on my own. I'd think "lie low" as a metaphor is probably idiomatic, but as a physical action I don't see why it would be.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Ah, tì’eyng ngeyä oe ngaru seiyi irayo :)
I’d say it matters in that respect as down/low in this expression is an adverb – at least, as far as I understand it, isn’t it? I realise that there is a semantic difference in English between »lie low« and »lie lowly«, so, wouldn’t it then be nìtìm ?

[/quote]

Could be, I'm not entirely sure. I think both would work. The 'lu' combines with the adjective so it doesn't directly modify the pronoun ("long river" vs "river is long"), so literally "we are low (towards the ground)". As long as you can take out (towards the ground) and it still makes sense, I think it works like it should :)



msg=198333 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 15:38:25 | u=631

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Right, I totally ignored the lu part of the sentence – ngaytxoa…

Follow-up question:
Is txa’ only used for physical things or could it also be used to mean »difficult«?
In other words: Could I translate Mo’at’s sentence: »It is hard to fill a cup that is already full« with it?



msg=198696 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 19:09:03 | u=3552

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

tigermind

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8631.msg198333#msg198333 date=1272555505]
[font=Garamond]Right, I totally ignored the lu part of the sentence – ngaytxoa…

Follow-up question:
Is txa’ only used for physical things or could it also be used to mean »difficult«?
In other words: Could I translate Mo’at’s sentence: »It is hard to fill a cup that is already full« with it?

[/quote]

Kaltxì ma Plumps.  You're right that many languages have a single word "hard" that covers both "not-soft" and "not-easy".  As far as i know, Karyu Pawl has not indicated that these two concepts are both covered by txa'.  For now, i've been expressing the concept of "difficult" as ke ftue.



msg=198719 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 19:21:47 | u=631

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I figured as much, seeing that so many other concepts are very distinctly separated (lefpom & nitram etc.) – just wanted to be sure and see what you all think.
Thank you, ma tigermind :)



msg=198923 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 21:14:30 | u=21

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

wm.annis

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8631.msg198696#msg198696 date=1272568143]You're right that many languages have a single word "hard" that covers both "not-soft" and "not-easy". [/quote]

"Heavy" is another candidate for a word that also means "difficult."



msg=199095 | topic=8631 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 01:20:06 | u=430

Re: New adjectives in poetry, part III

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8631.msg198923#msg198923 date=1272575670]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8631.msg198696#msg198696 date=1272568143]You're right that many languages have a single word "hard" that covers both "not-soft" and "not-easy". [/quote]

"Heavy" is another candidate for a word that also means "difficult."
[/quote]

Oooh, that's clever, oe sìlpey tsnì tsa'u ngay layu.



msg=195581 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 06:55:16 | u=54

Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Tiger

No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".

[spoiler=You want the truth?  You can't handle the truth!]Yes, apparently the meaning did indeed come AFTER the dialog was recorded and in the final cut, and Karyu Pawl found out about it in a screening.  But like many things, it is now canon.[/spoiler]

I also ran the transcription we had of Jake's speech to see how close we were and got a few corrections there.  The entirety of what was in the movie below.

fpole’ sawtutel ’upxaret
ayoeri tsat new
tsun mivunge.
slä awngal 'upxaret fpìye' for.
kämakto nìwin, ayngati spivule hufwel
ayolo'ru alahe peng ziva'u.
for peng syeraw Toruk Makto
tswayon set oehu
ma smukan, ma smuke!
sawtuter wìyintxu ayoeng
ke tsun fo fìkem sivi
fìtsenge... l(u) awngeyä!


For the most part, various attempts to transcribe it all got some bits right and some bits wrong and nearly everything had been correctly transcribed in one form or another.  The only two surprises there are the "lu" in the final line (I mean it makes sense, but I don't think I've seen anyone suggest that it is there.  The other is the "ayoeri tsat new".  It really...  doesn't make any sense.  But the reason is the whole direct quote thing of Na'vi...  That is a translation of something like "The sky people have sent us a message, 'We can take whatever we want and nobody can stop us'".  But due to time constraints it got stripped down considerably, including removing the "san".

Edit: Forgot to add, he has been quite busy but hopes that this weekend will be slow enough that he can start getting to the list of questions I sent him for the "Combining our Efforts II".

Edit II: Before it gets too far into common use, I figured I'd get a few clarifications.  As has been suspected, -ya is ONLY for "singular" nouns that denote a group.  So Na'viya of course, or tsamponguya are fine.  Frapoya is a borderline case, but only because it is a pronoun.  However it would be acceptable.  (As an implication from that, I am guessing we can take that to mean if you're saying something to everyone, you can say "Frapoya", "ma frapo" or just "frapo" and all are acceptable.)  Nouns that are only a group by nature of being plural would just get "ma".  (So *suteya would never be correct.)  And finally, -ya is never required, you can always use the normal "ma" vocative instead.



msg=195586 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 07:04:42 | u=631

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Interesting!
I like how these things enter the language … and that certain speech patterns (some may call it errors :P ) suddenly get meaning :D

So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)


[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8675.msg195581#msg195581 date=1272351316]
fpole’ sawtutel ’upxaret
ayoeri tsat new
tsun mivunge.
slä awngal 'upxaret fpìye' for.
kämakto nìwin, ayngati spivule hufwel
ayolo'ru alahe peng ziva'u.
for peng syeraw Toruk Makto
tswayon set oehu
ma smukan, ma smuke!
sawtute wìyintxu awngal
ke tsun fo fìkem sivi
fìtsenge... l(u) awngeyä!

[/quote]
[font=Garamond]I know at least [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/fan-music/the-song-about-the-story-of-avatar/]meylan[/url] who are not going to like that :P



msg=195588 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 07:08:54 | u=195

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

esoanem

Interesting things:

peng used syntactically like a modal "peng ziva'u" whereas before we'd have thought a fte would be needed srak?
sawtute (as an object) being unmarked by an accusative (sawtute wìyintxu awngal)
Genitives used predicatively, possibly could be used generally like mine or yours (fìtsenge lu awngeyä)

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8675.msg195586#msg195586 date=1272351882]
So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)
[/quote]

I'd say not, Omängum says that -ya is for collective nouns whilst skumtu is just a plural. For things like olo' or na'vi it works but I don't we have many collective nouns as of yet.



msg=195591 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 07:11:46 | u=631

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Plumps83

[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8675.msg195588#msg195588 date=1272352134][quote author=Plumps link=topic=8675.msg195586#msg195586 date=1272351882]
So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)
[/quote]

I'd say not, Omängum says that -ya is for collective nouns whilst skumtu is just a plural. For things like olo' or na'vi it works but I don't we have many collective nouns as of yet.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
Fair enough, then I misunderstood the term »collective« :(



msg=195593 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 07:20:47 | u=54

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Tiger

[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8675.msg195588#msg195588 date=1272352134]
Interesting things:

peng used modally "peng ziva'u" whereas before we'd have thought a fte would be needed srak?
sawtute (as an object) being unmarked by an accusative (sawtute wìyintxu awngal)
Genitives used predicatively, possibly could be used generally like mine or yours (fìtsenge lu awngeyä)
[/quote]Ack!  Thanks for catching the wìyintxu line, that was my copy error.  It should be sawtuter wìyingtxu ayoeng, I forgot to edit that line.

I wouldn't say that "peng ziva'u" is being used modally there...  To the best of my knowledge "tell" is not a modal in any Language.  (Modality is a specific meaning, of which "tell" does not fit.)  But yes, it is indeed being used in the same syntactic manner.  I believe we've seen a similar construct on a non-modal one other time but I can't recall where.  And that was not something created by compressed time of the movie.

On your last point, we also have "Na'viyä luyu hapxì".

[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8675.msg195588#msg195588 date=1272352134]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8675.msg195586#msg195586 date=1272351882]
So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)
[/quote]

I'd say not, Omängum says that -ya is for collective nouns whilst skumtu is just a plural. For things like olo' or na'vi it works but I don't we have many collective nouns as of yet.
[/quote]Right, the impression I get from his wording is that it is only for nouns that are innately groups...  Like Na'vi (The people), pongu (Group/party) & derivatives, and olo' (clan).  Not sure if that extends to names of those as well (ma Omatikaya or Omatikayaya)  However he did not give any specific examples besides the Na'viya from which the rule was derived.



msg=195599 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 07:31:37 | u=1120

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8675.msg195593#msg195593 date=1272352847]
Ack!  Thanks for catching the wìyintxu line, that was my copy error.  It should be sawtuter wìyingtxu ayoeng, I forgot to edit that line.
[/quote]

So, sawtute takes the short dative? So far we've only seen that on pronouns.



msg=195609 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 08:00:52 | u=1225

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

neotrekkerz

Do you know if -ya is required for collective nouns, or just an alternative formulation? E.g. is ma Na'vi valid as well?



msg=195627 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 09:00:24 | u=54

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Tiger

I did not ask any follow up questions, though a few are of course raised.  He seems busy at the moment so I figured it could wait.



msg=195769 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 13:09:19 | u=1550

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Taras

Tewti! Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmukan. Kawkrr oe ke tsamun tslilvam tsalì'ut a san Na'viya :)



msg=195831 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 14:14:05 | u=0

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Swoka Swizaw

So, is this definition a post-hoc addition?



msg=196121 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 17:37:11 | u=195

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8675.msg195593#msg195593 date=1272352847]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8675.msg195588#msg195588 date=1272352134]
Interesting things:

peng used modally "peng ziva'u" whereas before we'd have thought a fte would be needed srak?
sawtute (as an object) being unmarked by an accusative (sawtute wìyintxu awngal)
Genitives used predicatively, possibly could be used generally like mine or yours (fìtsenge lu awngeyä)
[/quote]Ack!  Thanks for catching the wìyintxu line, that was my copy error.  It should be sawtuter wìyingtxu ayoeng, I forgot to edit that line.

I wouldn't say that "peng ziva'u" is being used modally there...  To the best of my knowledge "tell" is not a modal in any Language.  (Modality is a specific meaning, of which "tell" does not fit.)  But yes, it is indeed being used in the same syntactic manner.  I believe we've seen a similar construct on a non-modal one other time but I can't recall where.  And that was not something created by compressed time of the movie.

On your last point, we also have "Na'viyä luyu hapxì".

[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8675.msg195588#msg195588 date=1272352134]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8675.msg195586#msg195586 date=1272351882]
So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)
[/quote]

I'd say not, Omängum says that -ya is for collective nouns whilst skumtu is just a plural. For things like olo' or na'vi it works but I don't we have many collective nouns as of yet.
[/quote]Right, the impression I get from his wording is that it is only for nouns that are innately groups...  Like Na'vi (The people), pongu (Group/party) & derivatives, and olo' (clan).  Not sure if that extends to names of those as well (ma Omatikaya or Omatikayaya)  However he did not give any specific examples besides the Na'viya from which the rule was derived.
[/quote]

1. ok, I misunderstood modal then. It's still interesting to note after we got told that we'd been using it inappropriately. I hadn't remembered the na'viyä luyu hapxì, I'd thought it was luyu na'viyä hapxì, that shows how useless my memory is.  ::)

2. I'd imagine it would work for names like omatikaya if it works for collective nouns. Of course, that's just a guess.



msg=196618 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 00:45:43 | u=3552

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

tigermind

So... what is the difference between spule and munge?



msg=196626 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 00:57:32 | u=1317

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

I'm glad that we finally got -ya out of the way, it bugged me so much.  :D

spule is propel and munge is take/bring



msg=196663 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 01:53:30 | u=3552

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

tigermind

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=8675.msg196626#msg196626 date=1272416252]
I'm glad that we finally got -ya out of the way, it bugged me so much.  :D

spule is propel and munge is take/bring
[/quote]

Okay.  I had seen them both glossed as "carry" at some point; i guess i see the difference.  Irayo.



msg=196708 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 03:41:08 | u=73

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Prrton

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=8675.msg195609#msg195609 date=1272355252]
Do you know if -ya is required for collective nouns, or just an alternative formulation? E.g. is ma Na'vi valid as well?
[/quote]

  Trr lefpom, ma Amerika!

«Amerika» is used as a collective noun to "call out to" all of the US.



msg=196714 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 03:47:05 | u=1317

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

Depending on how recently he made the rule, assuming very recently, it could change. Personally -ya seems to flow better rather than ma and it's nice to have a distinction between the two, it never really felt right saying ma Amerika (at least to me)

Trr lefpom learnnaviya!



msg=196724 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 03:56:35 | u=73

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8675.msg195593#msg195593 date=1272352847]

I wouldn't say that "peng ziva'u" is being used modally there...  To the best of my knowledge "tell" is not a modal in any Language.  (Modality is a specific meaning, of which "tell" does not fit.)  But yes, it is indeed being used in the same syntactic manner.  I believe we've seen a similar construct on a non-modal one other time but I can't recall where.  And that was not something created by compressed time of the movie.
[/quote]

This «peng ziva'u» and the «for peng syeraw Toruk Makto» is just san-dropping, right? That «ziva'u» in the subjunctive is just a polite request/command.

If/when tsnì and fte are [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/another-email-ta-frommer-no-answers-as-of-yet-but-a-few-interesting-points/msg196703/#msg196703]dropped (legally or not)[/url], other things can LOOK like real modals too, though, even though the underlying logic of the sentence is different.



msg=196726 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 04:00:16 | u=1225

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

neotrekkerz

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8675.msg196708#msg196708 date=1272426068]
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=8675.msg195609#msg195609 date=1272355252]
Do you know if -ya is required for collective nouns, or just an alternative formulation? E.g. is ma Na'vi valid as well?
[/quote]

  Trr lefpom, ma Amerika!

«Amerika» is used as a collective noun to "call out to" all of the US.
[/quote]

Txantsana menari, ma Prrton.  Oe irayo seiyi ngar.



msg=196868 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 09:59:48 | u=1751

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

blueme

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8675.msg195581#msg195581 date=1272351316]
No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".[/quote]

Whoa! That's totally weird! Is this coming from an email or something? I'm asking because Ma oeyä Na’viya, [lu] mawey! seems to be double marked for vocative, and don't tell me it's not ma oeyä in the first part because then [desc=correctly: ma oeyä smukan]maweya smukan[/desc] (in addressing the dieing nantang) makes no sense. Of course such double marking could be allowed no problem, just wondering...



msg=197175 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 15:48:56 | u=195

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

esoanem

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8675.msg196868#msg196868 date=1272448788]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8675.msg195581#msg195581 date=1272351316]
No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".[/quote]

Whoa! That's totally weird! Is this coming from an email or something? I'm asking because Ma oeyä Na’viya, [lu] mawey! seems to be double marked for vocative, and don't tell me it's not ma oeyä in the first part because then [desc=correctly: ma oeyä smukan]maweya smukan[/desc] (in addressing the dieing nantang) makes no sense. Of course such double marking could be allowed no problem, just wondering...
[/quote]

Except the vocative isn't required for addressing creatures so maweya tsmukan to a nantang makes perfect sense.



msg=197421 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 18:09:28 | u=1751

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

blueme

[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8675.msg197175#msg197175 date=1272469736]
Except the vocative isn't required for addressing creatures so maweya tsmukan to a nantang makes perfect sense.[/quote]

Oh, and where does that come from? (This brother vs brother discrimination sounds like Animal Farm to me... not Na’vi at all. :-\\)



msg=197434 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 18:18:40 | u=195

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

esoanem

[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/info-on-duals-and-vocative/msg132225/#msg132225]Ta oengä karyu pawl.[/url] ;)

It was a modification to the rule after the film because Cameron insisted on a different version of the line.



msg=197443 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 18:25:35 | u=1751

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

blueme

[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8675.msg197434#msg197434 date=1272478720]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/info-on-duals-and-vocative/msg132225/#msg132225]Ta oengä karyu pawl.[/url] ;)

It was a modification to the rule after the film because Cameron insisted on a different version of the line.
[/quote]

Irayo nìtxan, ma [desc=what could be your real name, I wonder? cacophony? ;)]kemeoauniaea[/desc].

It could still be ma oeyä tsukan with the nantang then, couldn't it? Only I'm not sure anymore what she says after...



msg=197452 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 18:32:05 | u=195

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

esoanem

I still favour the ma oeyä theory, as I have ever since we heard that inflected forms of oe could be pronounced we.

What Neytiri says is:

[desc=I see you calm/my brother and forgive me, your spirit goes with Eywa but your body remains to become part of the people]oel ngati kame maweya/ma oeyä tsmukan ulte oeru txoa livu, ngeyä tirea kivä Eywahu slä tokx 'ì'awn slivu na'viyä hapxì[/desc]

[desc=IIRC]TOON[/desc], it's been a while since I saw the film.

My name mìhìfkey is Tristan which has its etymological routes in the words tumult or outcry which is very close to dischord, the only reason I chose dischord with nature is because kemeoauniaea sounds a lot cooler than keme'em.



msg=197493 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 19:12:18 | u=54

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Tiger

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8675.msg196868#msg196868 date=1272448788]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8675.msg195581#msg195581 date=1272351316]
No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".[/quote]

Whoa! That's totally weird! Is this coming from an email or something? I'm asking because Ma oeyä Na’viya, [lu] mawey! seems to be double marked for vocative, and don't tell me it's not ma oeyä in the first part because then [desc=correctly: ma oeyä smukan]maweya smukan[/desc] (in addressing the dieing nantang) makes no sense. Of course such double marking could be allowed no problem, just wondering...
[/quote]If she was saying "Ma oeyä Na'viya, mawey" then why would it get subtitled as "Calm, people, calm"?  What makes you think that's what's being said?

And why can't it be "Mawey, Na'viya, mawey" and also be "Ma oeyä tsmukan"?  It sounds to me like you're applying rules in your mind, then confusing yourself by them.



msg=197527 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 19:50:20 | u=1751

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

blueme

You're right. One could be this, and the other that. Now that I know the full story, I can see that too. (As for the sub, I didn't remember what it said anymore, nor was I aware that it was to be trusted. In Jake's speech, I remember, it wasn't precise.)



msg=197541 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 20:04:25 | u=73

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Prrton

K. Pawl has said to me that the actors had more trouble with word final «-ä» than anything else in terms of pronunciation. (I also struggle with it quite a bit.) «Ma oeyä tsmukan» (from Neytiri's addressing the dying/dead nantang) had always sounded like «Maweya tsumkan» to me and I was assuming she was addressing him as "[desc=due to passing/having passed away]peaceful[/desc] brother" with no vocative «ma».

This discussion is very enlightening for me.

Frapor irayo seiyi.



msg=197597 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 20:26:27 | u=1751

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

blueme

It's a damn shame really. I had such an awesome [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/audio/mawey-na%27via-mawey/msg184020/#msg184020]theory[/url] going on! :D



msg=197710 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 21:44:22 | u=195

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8675.msg197493#msg197493 date=1272481938]
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8675.msg196868#msg196868 date=1272448788]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8675.msg195581#msg195581 date=1272351316]
No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".[/quote]

Whoa! That's totally weird! Is this coming from an email or something? I'm asking because Ma oeyä Na’viya, [lu] mawey! seems to be double marked for vocative, and don't tell me it's not ma oeyä in the first part because then [desc=correctly: ma oeyä smukan]maweya smukan[/desc] (in addressing the dieing nantang) makes no sense. Of course such double marking could be allowed no problem, just wondering...
[/quote]If she was saying "Ma oeyä Na'viya, mawey" then why would it get subtitled as "Calm, people, calm"?  What makes you think that's what's being said?

And why can't it be "Mawey, Na'viya, mawey" and also be "Ma oeyä tsmukan"?  It sounds to me like you're applying rules in your mind, then confusing yourself by them.
[/quote]

I was agreeing with the mawey, na'viya, mawey and ma oeyä tsmukan. It seems I was wrong with the na'viya one completely, I'm pretty good at this being wrong thing, first transitivity, then inalienable si verbs and now mawey na'viya mawey, if ever there's a dispute about grammar, we ought to just look at the two main arguments, see which one I support and go for the other.  :P

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8675.msg197541#msg197541 date=1272485065]
K. Pawl has said to me that the actors had more trouble with word final «-ä» than anything else in terms of pronunciation. (I also struggle with it quite a bit.) «Ma oeyä tsmukan» (from Neytiri's addressing the dying/dead nantang) had always sounded like «Maweya tsumkan» to me and I was assuming she was addressing him as "[desc=due to passing/having passed away]peaceful[/desc] brother" with no vocative «ma».

This discussion is very enlightening for me.

Frapor irayo seiyi.
[/quote]

Does that mean karyu Pawl has told us that the line was meant to be "ma oeyä tsmukan" or are we going on the subtitles for that?



msg=197808 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 22:51:42 | u=430

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8675.msg197710#msg197710 date=1272491062]
Does that mean karyu Pawl has told us that the line was meant to be "ma oeyä tsmukan" or are we going on the subtitles for that?
[/quote]

There were no subtitles for that line IIRC. I assume we're just going off of what makes more sense.



msg=199211 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 06:46:36 | u=73

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8675.msg197808#msg197808 date=1272495102]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8675.msg197710#msg197710 date=1272491062]
Does that mean karyu Pawl has told us that the line was meant to be "ma oeyä tsmukan" or are we going on the subtitles for that?
[/quote]

There were no subtitles for that line IIRC. I assume we're just going off of what makes more sense.
[/quote]

It COULD be either («maweya tsmukan» or «ma oeyä tsmukan»). I don't have any confirmation directly from K.P.. Both seem perfectly plausible to me considering the context, but... hmmm.... not sure. If the final ä is mispronounced, then there's no real way to figure it out from what Zoe says. I'd probably give it a 60/40 in favor of the "my brother" just based on my imagining of what Cameron would be more likely to WRITE for the dialog, now that I stop and think about it.



msg=205733 | topic=8675 | board=99 | time=2010-05-08 02:30:41 | u=54

Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative

Tiger

Just a couple minor clarifications in the first post for people wondering the correct way to use this.



msg=196441 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 21:39:47 | u=195

Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting points

esoanem

I sent Frommer an email this afternoon regarding participles of si verbs and restrictive/non-restrictive relative clauses, I checked my email again about three hours later and to my surprise he'd already replied, sadly with no answers because he's busy with a lot of proper work, but still a few interesting points are raised.

[quote=Frommer]Kaltxì, ma Kemeoauniaea--

Mesìpawmìri atxantsan seiyi oe ngar irayo. Pxiset ke lu oeru krr fte tì'eyngit tivìng, slä fmayi oe 'iveyng ye'rìn. Tsakrrvay, ngeyä tìmweypeyri irayo.

ta Pawl[/quote]

seiyi oe ngar irayo - completely destroys my idea that si verbs were completely inseparable and makes the issue of the participles all the more interesting. Also means that it is perfectly reasonable to split si verbs (and therefore presumably tìng, peng etc. verbs as well) up.

pxiset - just now, now Frommerian.

The use of tì'eyngit tìng not 'eyng is interesting.

tìmweypey - patience? Presumably derived from tì-mawey-pey.



msg=196445 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 21:42:37 | u=1975

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting points

Ean Tirea

aww dude very nice stuff. cant wait to see the answer.



msg=196461 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 21:51:57 | u=54

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting points

Tiger

I told you so. :D

(Ok so I was mostly going on guesses from half information, but they didn't seem so inseparable to me.)

I wonder if the "tìmweypey" he sent me WRT to the outstanding list of questions was a typo then.



msg=196463 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 21:53:09 | u=21

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting point

wm.annis

[quote=Frommer] slä fmayi oe 'iveyng ye'rìn. [/quote]

Ooh!  OohOohOoh!  We now know "try" takes the usual modal syntax.



msg=196465 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 21:55:54 | u=195

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting points

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8717.msg196461#msg196461 date=1272405117]
I told you so. :D

(Ok so I was mostly going on guesses from half information, but they didn't seem so inseparable to me.)

I wonder if the "tìmweypey" he sent me WRT to the outstanding list of questions was a typo then.
[/quote]

I got tìmweypey in mine but assumed it was  typo, I've changed it back now.

I wonder if it's still the same derivation I was thinking of (tì-mawey-pey).

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8717.msg196463#msg196463 date=1272405189]
[quote=Frommer] slä fmayi oe 'iveyng ye'rìn. [/quote]

Ooh!  OohOohOoh!  We now know "try" takes the usual modal syntax.

[/quote]

Didn't notice that, yay!



msg=196475 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 22:01:17 | u=21

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting point

wm.annis

[quote author=kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) link=topic=8717.msg196465#msg196465 date=1272405354]I got tìmweypey in mine but assumed it was  typo, I've changed it back now.[/quote]

This, along with pxiset, was given in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/trr-rrtaya/]Earth Day[/url] list.



msg=196489 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 22:09:33 | u=195

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting points

esoanem

I don't know why but I didn't read that list.

In that case this is a lot less interesting than I thought.  :D



msg=196490 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 22:10:52 | u=54

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting points

Tiger

But at the same time, more interesting than you thought...  (Rutxe fmi lunit tslivam.)



msg=196507 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 22:24:00 | u=631

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting points

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Yes, the clarification with fmi constructions is very helpful. Though a lot of members used ‹iv› in the follow-up verb quasi automatically, it’s good to have it confirmed.

Thanks for sharing!

BTW: I know why he answered ;) because you changed your name into a variation of his favorite word :P



msg=196518 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 22:43:32 | u=1550

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting points

Taras

Sran, oel kop talmel fìfne'upxaret teri fwa ke lu por set krr :D Slä tsatsenge ke lamu ke'u amip ulte tafral oel ke walmìntxu tsat fitsenge...

Lì'uri a san fmi sìk, irayo seiyi oe ngar, ma tsmukan. Slä lam oer fwa tsaw frakrr lamu law, kefyak?

================

Ngian oer nì'ul tsranten lì'u a san tìmweypeyri. Ha tsun fko pamrel sivi fìfya a san ...y + ri sìk, kea san ...y + ìri ???



msg=196581 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 23:23:50 | u=1225

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting point

neotrekkerz

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8717.msg196463#msg196463 date=1272405189]
[quote=Frommer] slä fmayi oe 'iveyng ye'rìn. [/quote]

Ooh!  OohOohOoh!  We now know "try" takes the usual modal syntax.
[/quote]

Glad we got at least that one cleared up too.  :)



msg=196703 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 03:35:20 | u=73

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting point

Prrton

On 30 March I sent K.P. a list of verbs that seemed to WANT to be modals but for which we had no clarification/model examples.  Fmi was on that list. I included others like «mllte» that seem (to me) to need ur/ru so that they can "work". (>>> Oe molte tsara pohu kä (fu kivä) <<< vs. Oe molte kivä pohu. ? ? ) It's one of the many things on his "back burner" right now, but either my *intuition* was on track or he's been thinking about it vis-à-vis that spreadsheet.

These are the others that I would not be surprised to see PROMOTED to full "direct-to-iv" status:

- nulnew
- kin
- ftxey

- sngä'i

- kan (for intent; conceptual sibling to -s- (ìsy, asy))

  *[Oe [keran kivä] (fte) nivìn tsat *'eylananhu.]
    I'm intending to go to watch that with my male friend.

Eventually we'll see.  ;)

Thanks very much for sharing this!

PS: Mllte might also take tsnì instead ?
PPS: The other question in this realm is if "fte-dropping" will be allowed in parallels to this kind of English.

    I began to try to choose to spend time to go see Avatar more often at my friend's house.

These are the prime candidates for fte-dropping (if it's allowed) that I see at this time (not exhaustive):

kä (go)
za'u (come)

hawl (prepare) *prime*
kllfro’ (be responsible) *prime*
hum (leave) *prime*

ftang (stop) (May end up as a sibling to sngä'i ?? If direct to -iv-, then "stop so-and-so-ing." Fte would then be required to say: "He stopped to turn to his and say "I'm sorry.")

ftia (study)
hahaw (sleep)
hangham (laugh)
kämakto (to ride out)
kan (aim)
kar (teach)
kllkxem (stand)
latem (change) [change into (slu)]
lok (approach)
makto (ride)
mìn (turn)
näk (drink)
nekx (burn)
nume (learn)
pähem (arrive)
pängkxo (chats)
pey (wait)
rey (live)
rikx (move/shift postion)
rol (sing)
yom (eat)

muntxa si (to mated)
nari si (watch out, be careful)
srung si (to help)
pamrel si (to write)



msg=196829 | topic=8717 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 07:12:54 | u=195

Re: Another email ta Frommer - no answers as of yet, but a few interesting points

esoanem

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8717.msg196518#msg196518 date=1272408212]
Lì'uri a san fmi sìk, irayo seiyi oe ngar, ma tsmukan. Slä lam oer fwa tsaw frakrr lamu law, kefyak?

================

Ngian oer nì'ul tsranten lì'u a san tìmweypeyri. Ha tsun fko pamrel sivi fìfya a san ...y + ri sìk, kea san ...y + ìri ???
[/quote]

1. It was being widely used like this but I thought the prevailing opinion was that it ought to use fte.

2. Dipthongs often take odd endings, for some things they count as vowels for others consonants.




msg=197619 | topic=8785 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 20:37:42 | u=73

Aylì'uo fa nì- sì tì-

Prrton

It is likely that many of you will have seen MOST (but possibly not all of these words before). They are from K. Pawl, and to the best of my knowledge, I did not touch/corrupt/dislocate any semicolons this time.  ;)

The meanings are pretty predictable overall, but again, with words formed with nì- and tì-, it's always a good idea to keep in mind that the meanings are not 100% unambiguously predictable from the "root". Keep in mind also that "intelligence" as given for «tìtslam» could mean "intelligence" in this sense of "information that provides 'understanding'" (e.g.: "military intelligence"). It doesn't seem (to me) that «tìkanu» ("being smart") and «tìtslam» ("having understanding") are interchangeable for the same meaning of "intelligence".

’eyngback, in response, in answer  ADV
kanuintelligently, in a smart wayADV
nìlkeftangcontinuously, without stopping  ADV
zawnong  safelyADV
lawclearlyADV
================================================
stianger
N
txanewgreed
N
ftangstopping
N
ftxeychoice
N
kanuintelligence
N
lamappearance
N
tslamunderstanding, intelligence
N
txulaconstruction, constructed thing
N
txurstrength, power
N



msg=197657 | topic=8785 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 21:04:55 | u=3552

Re: Aylì'uo fa nì- sì tì-

tigermind

Ngaru irayo seiyi oe, ma Prrton.  Faylì'u txantsan lu nang!



msg=197796 | topic=8785 | board=99 | time=2010-04-28 22:42:20 | u=1550

Re: Aylì'uo fa nì- sì tì-

Taras

Irayo, ma tsmukan. Frafmawn ta Karyu frakrr oeru lu nìtxan nang ;) Nìpxi krr a tsaw lu mipa aylì'u sì horen :) Irayo seiyi nìmun ngaru, ma Prrton, sì Karyur awngeyä :)



msg=198016 | topic=8785 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 06:43:53 | u=984

Re: Aylì'uo fa nì- sì tì-

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]Srake oe lu eyawr san
’eyng, kanu, law
sti, txanew, kanu, lam, tslam, txula, txur
sìk?



msg=198908 | topic=8785 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 21:09:10 | u=73

Re: Aylì'uo fa nì- sì tì-

Prrton

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=8785.msg198016#msg198016 date=1272523433]
[font=Book Antiqua]Srake oe lu eyawr san
’eyng, kanu, law
sti, txanew, kanu, lam, tslam, txula, txur
sìk?

[/quote]

Eyawr nìwotx!

Furia oel ke nìlaw wolìntxu nìsngä'i, NGAYTXOA! Tsun meypa eltu oeyä tswiva' fìtxan nìftue!  :o



msg=197876 | topic=8799 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 01:03:01 | u=21

MOVED: Is Na'vi the name of the language?

wm.annis

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=8797.0[/iurl]



msg=201015 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 10:56:50 | u=1751

words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

blueme

This where we collect word/expression requests for Pawl. Note that stuff on this list will not be sent to him (he already got his thousand words) unless he specifically asks for a second batch of requests. Treat this as a repository of ideas.

Be sure to crosscheck the words you want to add with the two lists below!

[quote=wm.annis]
This has every word we have asked for so far (should never be more than a day out of date):
http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/L_E_P/Wordlist.

This is a list of every word Frommer invented for the film or the game but which we may not yet have been told the Na'vi for:
http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/L_E_P/Frommerian.[/quote]



msg=201360 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 20:02:36 | u=5877

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

whipback

I didn't check for this, but how about the word "wenis" as in that wrinkly, stretchy skin on your elbow...



msg=201445 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 22:06:34 | u=21

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

wm.annis

My thought was that the entire Vocabulary Expansion forum would be shut down — readable, but not accepting changes — until such time as Karyu Pawl opened up another round.



msg=201472 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 23:00:57 | u=1620

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

dontbugme

why not move this thread to "language updates" and then lock the lep forum



msg=201478 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 23:10:49 | u=21

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

wm.annis

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=8943.msg201472#msg201472 date=1272841257]why not move this thread to "language updates" and then lock the lep forum[/quote]

Certainly doable.



msg=206484 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 04:17:30 | u=4754

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Here goes the first words for the Q list.....

Heinous - A term used to describe a very revolting, disagreeable, senseless act.

"The attack on hometree by the skypeople was heinous"
"What was done to the women and children was so henious he couldn't bring himself to talk about it"

Egregious - An act of wrongdoing that is 'way over the line', especially in a legal sense.

"The son riding his father's ikran was an egregious breach of tribal protocol"



msg=206516 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 06:55:58 | u=195

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

esoanem

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=8943.msg206484#msg206484 date=1273378650]
Here goes the first words for the Q list.....

Heinous - A term used to describe a very revolting, disagreeable, senseless act.

"The attack on hometree by the skypeople was heinous"
"What was done to the women and children was so henious he couldn't bring himself to talk about it"

Egregious - An act of wrongdoing that is 'way over the line', especially in a legal sense.

"The son riding his father's ikran was an egregious breach of tribal protocol"
[/quote]

Definitely need this.

Currently my translation of "heinous crime" in the bad horse chorus ta doctor horrible is "kemo akawng".



msg=206547 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 09:19:15 | u=0

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Tsamsiyu92

Why has someone requested "anus"? Doesn't "txim" suffice well enough?



msg=206609 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 11:21:41 | u=1751

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

blueme

[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=8943.msg206547#msg206547 date=1273396755]
Why has someone requested "anus"? Doesn't "txim" suffice well enough?
[/quote]I'm sorry if it offends your sensibilities, but they are distinct parts of the body, wouldn't you agree? ::)

Some nouns:
the temple (of the head)
the dust (that collects in the corners)
a perfume/fragrance (good smell)
a stench (bad smell)
[Do we know anything about the olfactory capabilities of the Na’vi?]



msg=207045 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-10 00:34:24 | u=4754

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8943.msg206609#msg206609 date=1273404101]
[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=8943.msg206547#msg206547 date=1273396755]
Why has someone requested "anus"? Doesn't "txim" suffice well enough?
[/quote]I'm sorry if it offends your sensibilities, but they are distinct parts of the body, wouldn't you agree? ::)

Some nouns:
the temple (of the head)
the dust (that collects in the corners)
a perfume/fragrance (good smell)
a stench (bad smell)
[Do we know anything about the olfactory capabilities of the Na’vi?]
[/quote]

I thought I had suggested 'stench' at some point along the way. If I did, it didn't make any lists. I checked, and there is no word suggested for 'stench' or 'stink' for that matter. There is a word for smell, fahew, but no positive/negative meaning attached to it. I suppose you could use kawnga fahew, but words like 'stink' and 'stench' have a stronger connotation, just as 'henious' does over 'wrong'.

"The dead toruk gave off quite a stench" - kind of noun-ish
"that root really stinks when it is cooked, but it tastes wonderful" - kind of adjective-ish

'dust' is a really good catch, and should have been an A or B word. Oh well.....



msg=207313 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-10 10:34:55 | u=1751

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

blueme

to value/to hold dear, to be dear to one [font=Lucida Console]"I value our friendship." "This armband my mother weaved is dear to me." "Step aside if you value your life!" (My feeling is that [desc=love]lu oeru yawne[/desc] would be too strong in these cases.)

Also, [desc=my dear sister! my dear ‹name of ikran›!]dear[/desc] if it's different from [desc=beloved]yawne[/desc].

silly (adj./adv.) – frivolous(ly); acting/being all weird and crazy, but in a harmless and/or entertaining way.

a kiss (n.) – [desc=a kiss]tìpom[/desc]/[desc=the act of kissing]säpom[/desc] might work, but there must be a non-derived word for this. Maybe pom as well or an onomatopoeia which comes from the sound smack.
Also, a name ([desc=I don't even know if the Na’vi do that; it's in the scriptment, but that's not exactly canon]if there's one[/desc]) for the other kind involving the tongues. I'd suggest something with a syllabic ll in it. :D



msg=209481 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-12 22:02:46 | u=73

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Prrton

I found some cool Ainu words today and just wanted to let someone/anyone/everyone know.

rarutur (ラルトゥル) - the space between the eyebrows
sikkes (シㇰケシ) - the outer end or outer corner of an eye
am (アㇺ) - claw, talon; nail (of a finger or a toe)
kap (カㇷ゚) - skin, fur, rind, peel, bark, outer covering of anything

sinep (シネプ) - one thing
sinen (シネン) - one person

tup (トゥプ) - two things (< *tu pe)        DUAL
tun (トゥン) - two persons (< *tu niu)

rep (レプ) - three things (<*re pe)          TRIAL! Not just for Na'vi
ren (レン) - three persons (<*re niu)

inep (イネㇷ゚) - four things                     QUADRAL!!
inen (イネン) - four persons

aycaro (アィチャロ) - nock of an arrow

aykap (アィカㇷ゚) - to be inept, to be clumsy, to be unskillful, to be poor (at doing something)

hom (ホㇺ) - a knot (in wood); a joint (of bamboo)

homar (ホマㇻ) - to be vague, to be faint, to be indistinct, to be dim

kem (ケㇺ) - shortage of food, famine, hunger, starvation
  kemekot (ケメコッ) - to starve to death, to die of hunger
  kemnoye (ケㇺノイェ) - to starve to death, to die of hunger
  kemus (ケムㇱ) - famished, starving; there is/was a famine

kumius (クミウㇱ) - moldy, rotten and covered in mold
pene (ペネ) - thoroughly rotten, soft with decay, rotten and sticky or slimy

kupapa (クパパ) - to bite and hold on with the teeth

ekimne - to go to the mountains

erampokinu - to be a pity

inunkuri - unbearable

iyoykir - implements of rites, ritual implements

mike - to glitter

nuye - to write; to tattoo; to carve

oruspe - rumors

rototo - successive

tomte - to beautify

Some of these are probably in A, B, & C already in some shape or form. I just liked them.



msg=209531 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-12 23:02:58 | u=4375

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Binkatong

How about a word for "procrastinate"? I'd certainly use that often.  :D



msg=209629 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 01:33:46 | u=3552

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

tigermind

Ma Prrton, i find it interesting that there's a dedicated word "to go to the mountains."  I wonder if the Na'vi would have a similarly, unusually specific verb—to go to Iknimaya, maybe?



msg=209678 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 04:18:10 | u=73

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Prrton

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8943.msg209629#msg209629 date=1273714426]
Ma Prrton, i find it interesting that there's a dedicated word "to go to the mountains."  I wonder if the Na'vi would have a similarly, unusually specific verb—to go to Iknimaya, maybe?
[/quote]

I think there might be lots of opportunities for things specifically along those lines that are environmentally very specific, but they're likely the kind of thing that might start touching on culture in a way that K. Pawl might not be comfortable making decisions without input from Cameron.

He can always say "no" though.  ;)



msg=209688 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 05:52:47 | u=195

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

esoanem

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8943.msg209481#msg209481 date=1273701766]
inep (イネㇷ゚) - four things                    QUADRAL!!
inen (イネン) - four persons
[/quote]

That's interesting, I was reading up on grammatical number on wikipedia (I'm not really enough of a linguistic to get the sources) and it said that there are no known languages with a quadral, it mentions two that were thought to have one but it was actually a paucal form, is it something similar in Ainu or does the article need editing?



msg=209740 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 10:49:18 | u=1620

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

dontbugme

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8943.msg209688#msg209688 date=1273729967]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8943.msg209481#msg209481 date=1273701766]
inep (イネㇷ゚) - four things                     QUADRAL!!
inen (イネン) - four persons
[/quote]

That's interesting, I was reading up on grammatical number on wikipedia (I'm not really enough of a linguistic to get the sources) and it said that there are no known languages with a quadral, it mentions two that were thought to have one but it was actually a puacal form, is it something similar in Ainu or does the article need editing?
[/quote]

yeah, thats interesting!

asking as a non-linguist: is puacal a number-range or does the number depend on the context?



msg=209760 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 11:41:10 | u=1751

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

blueme

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=8943.msg209740#msg209740 date=1273747758]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8943.msg209688#msg209688 date=1273729967]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8943.msg209481#msg209481 date=1273701766]
inep (イネㇷ゚) - four things                     QUADRAL!!
inen (イネン) - four persons
[/quote]

That's interesting, I was reading up on grammatical number on wikipedia (I'm not really enough of a linguistic to get the sources) and it said that there are no known languages with a quadral, it mentions two that were thought to have one but it was actually a puacal form, is it something similar in Ainu or does the article need editing?
[/quote]

yeah, thats interesting!

asking as a non-linguist: is puacal a number-range or does the number depend on the context?
[/quote]

It's actually paucal, and it basically means a few. Suppose that [desc=few]hol[/desc] in Na’vi were the paucal number then you'd say *holsamsiyu to mean a "few warriors."

(On a related note, I wonder if something is few in quantity do we still need the plural in Na’vi? I mean, how few can a few be if it's already more than three, thus in the [desc=in the semantic field of "many"]plural[/desc]?)

edit: Just to make things a little bit more clear; in languages that have the paucal, the numbers are as follows:
singular < dual < trial < paucal < plural.



msg=209803 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 12:22:33 | u=21

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

wm.annis

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8943.msg209688#msg209688 date=1273729967]That's interesting, I was reading up on grammatical number on wikipedia (I'm not really enough of a linguistic to get the sources) and it said that there are no known languages with a quadral, it mentions two that were thought to have one but it was actually a puacal form, is it something similar in Ainu or does the article need editing?[/quote]

Those are actually the numeral "four" with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_word]classifier suffixes[/url].



msg=209863 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 13:11:57 | u=1751

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

blueme

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8943.msg209803#msg209803 date=1273753353]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8943.msg209688#msg209688 date=1273729967]That's interesting, I was reading up on grammatical number on wikipedia (I'm not really enough of a linguistic to get the sources) and it said that there are no known languages with a quadral, it mentions two that were thought to have one but it was actually a puacal form, is it something similar in Ainu or does the article need editing?[/quote]

Those are actually the numeral "four" with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_word]classifier suffixes[/url].
[/quote]

Ooh right, I recall reading that in Japanese you have all these different "numbers" depending on what you want to count. Like three in "three sheets of paper" is different from, three in "three blades of grass," and "three nuggets of gold," etc. (These examples might be off,  I know nothing about Japanese.)



msg=210051 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 17:59:31 | u=1620

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

dontbugme

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8943.msg209760#msg209760 date=1273750870]

(On a related note, I wonder if something is few in quantity do we still need the plural in Na’vi? I mean, how few can a few be if it's already more than three, thus in the [desc=in the semantic field of "many"]plural[/desc]?)
[/quote]

maybe Na'vi could have a "puacal" that depends on context. I think about it being used for nouns that come in a specific number like limbs, as part of names or as a hypernym for a concept that can come in different numbers eg: polygon, multipurpose, ruminant.(the examples are a bit rough and maybe not the best in language-context but i hope it covers the range of usage)



msg=210054 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 18:03:34 | u=195

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

esoanem

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8943.msg209803#msg209803 date=1273753353]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8943.msg209688#msg209688 date=1273729967]That's interesting, I was reading up on grammatical number on wikipedia (I'm not really enough of a linguistic to get the sources) and it said that there are no known languages with a quadral, it mentions two that were thought to have one but it was actually a puacal form, is it something similar in Ainu or does the article need editing?[/quote]

Those are actually the numeral "four" with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_word]classifier suffixes[/url].
[/quote]

Ok, that explains it, irayo.




msg=210345 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-14 00:34:07 | u=21

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

wm.annis

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8943.msg209760#msg209760 date=1273750870](On a related note, I wonder if something is few in quantity do we still need the plural in Na’vi? I mean, how few can a few be if it's already more than three, thus in the [desc=in the semantic field of "many"]plural[/desc]?)[/quote]

"Few" is not an absolute concept, any more than "big" is.  Compared to a fly, a frog is big.  Compared to a human, the frog is not.  The same with "many" and "few" — these are meaningful in numerical terms only in relation to the situation at hand.

When one says pxay "many" with a noun, Frommer uses the plural, lu awngar aytele apxay a teri sa'u pivlltxe we have many matters to talk about.  So I'd guess the same would be true of hol.  But it's something we should probably ask him.



msg=210386 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-14 01:39:08 | u=73

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8943.msg209803#msg209803 date=1273753353]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8943.msg209688#msg209688 date=1273729967]That's interesting, I was reading up on grammatical number on wikipedia (I'm not really enough of a linguistic to get the sources) and it said that there are no known languages with a quadral, it mentions two that were thought to have one but it was actually a puacal form, is it something similar in Ainu or does the article need editing?[/quote]

Those are actually the numeral "four" with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_word]classifier suffixes[/url].
[/quote]

Awwww. [desc=\\That's a little boring and a shame...]Chotto tsumaranakute zannen desh’ta...[/desc].

      [desc=The sound of my QUADRAL bubble bursting]Pìp[/desc]

      :'(

That does make sense though 'cause after I posted this I found parallels for 20 things and 20 people.

  hot (ホッ) - twenty (used in counting)
    hotne (ホッネ) - (to be) twenty ("ne" a verb of being)
        hotnen (ホッネン) - twenty persons
        hotnep (ホッネㇷ゚) - twenty things

It's pretty amazing that the classifiers are just an "n" (what's left over from a contraction of "niu" ("person")) and a "p" (what's left over from a contraction of "pe" ("thing")) though!  ;D



msg=210390 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-14 01:52:33 | u=73

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Prrton

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8943.msg209863#msg209863 date=1273756317]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8943.msg209803#msg209803 date=1273753353]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8943.msg209688#msg209688 date=1273729967]That's interesting, I was reading up on grammatical number on wikipedia (I'm not really enough of a linguistic to get the sources) and it said that there are no known languages with a quadral, it mentions two that were thought to have one but it was actually a puacal form, is it something similar in Ainu or does the article need editing?[/quote]

Those are actually the numeral "four" with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_word]classifier suffixes[/url].
[/quote]

Ooh right, I recall reading that in Japanese you have all these different "numbers" depending on what you want to count. Like three in "three sheets of paper" is different from, three in "three blades of grass," and "three nuggets of gold," etc. (These examples might be off,  I know nothing about Japanese.)
[/quote]

Depending on the kind of grass it might be either mai or hon/bon/pon. Nugget of gold would likely just be ko (the second easiest one after the über-generic tsu).

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_counter_word]It's a little overwhelming[/url]. I get the feeling that most Japanese under the age of 20 have no idea how to count pairs of chopsticks.  ;)

And look at the footnote in the Wikipedia article in the "overwhelming" line on how wa got applied to rabbits! So much for all that monastic piety!  :o

Ngaytxoa. I'm going to stop derailing this topic now.



msg=210450 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-14 07:01:02 | u=1620

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

dontbugme

muzzle (n.) mouth of an animal. (in German you don`t use "Mund" for animals); makes only sense when the Na'vi have different words for animal bodyparts. suggesting it maybe as a second meaning for/ variant of piak or tstu




msg=210471 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-14 08:49:17 | u=1751

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

blueme

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=8943.msg210450#msg210450 date=1273820462]
yap (n.) mouth of an animal. (in German you don`t use "Mund" for animals); makes only sense when the Na'vi have different words for animal bodyparts. suggesting it maybe as a second meaning for/ variant of piak or tstu[/quote]

I think the word you're looking for is muzzle; I've never heard yap used in that sense (it's more like trap/face/kisser/piehole.) Then again, English is not so careful about making such differences, and a small dog can certainly yap. Anyway, I don't expect Na’vi to use separate words for overlaps of human and animal anatomy, not with all the planet-wide fraternity.



msg=210507 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-14 11:23:07 | u=1620

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

dontbugme

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8943.msg210471#msg210471 date=1273826957]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=8943.msg210450#msg210450 date=1273820462]
yap (n.) mouth of an animal. (in German you don`t use "Mund" for animals); makes only sense when the Na'vi have different words for animal bodyparts. suggesting it maybe as a second meaning for/ variant of piak or tstu[/quote]

I think the word you're looking for is muzzle; I've never heard yap used in that sense (it's more like trap/face/kisser/piehole.) Then again, English is not so careful about making such differences, and a small dog can certainly yap. Anyway, I don't expect Na’vi to use separate words for overlaps of human and animal anatomy, not with all the planet-wide fraternity.
[/quote]
it was just a matter of time until i pick up an improper word from the dictionary.  :o *bad dictionary, shame on you !*  :P

yes, i guess a general word be unlikely, but maybe a word for a specific physiology is still possible, eg like [desc=i hope this is correct]bill = mouth of a bird[/desc] on earth



msg=210990 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-15 02:01:06 | u=6241

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Dreamlight

In grammar, the 'paucal' number amounts to 'more than two but not many'.  The only language that I can think of that has it is Fijian.



msg=211012 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-15 03:39:40 | u=1317

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

I do believe that Hopi and Warlpiri do as well.



msg=211528 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-15 22:51:30 | u=6241

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Dreamlight

I was sure there were others somewhere.  :)



msg=214774 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 17:11:59 | u=6151

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Tìhawnutu

Kaltxì ayngaru nìwotx! I'm not sure this is a right place for this question, but...
simple geometrical shapes
It is obvious that such shapes as circle, line, triangle, sphere etc., as do the words to name them,
are presented in all Earth languages, so I'm sure they (I mean shapes) all exist on Pandora as well.
But this basic words, even the word "shape", that are also usable for everyday life, are unknown for us,
and that's sad. So, I hope it could be possible to ask Karyu Pawl about them.



msg=214788 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 17:41:44 | u=2788

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Tìhawnutu link=topic=8943.msg214774#msg214774 date=1274375519]
Kaltxì ayngaru nìwotx! I'm not sure this is a right place for this question, but...
simple geometrical shapes
It is obvious that such shapes as circle, line, triangle, sphere etc., as do the words to name them,
are presented in all Earth languages, so I'm sure they (I mean shapes) all exist on Pandora as well.
But this basic words, even the word "shape", that are also usable for everyday life, are unknown for us,
and that's sad. So, I hope it could be possible to ask Karyu Pawl about them.
[/quote]

This was in the first LEP round:

geometrical shapes (A)
\



msg=214993 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 20:40:50 | u=430

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

TehMightyPirate

hmmm, I don't recall, and couldn't find it, but did we ever ask for a word for "drunk"? I'm sure it could be useful... :P



msg=215028 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 21:08:44 | u=2788

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8943.msg214993#msg214993 date=1274388050]
hmmm, I don't recall, and couldn't find it, but did we ever ask for a word for "drunk"? I'm sure it could be useful... :P
[/quote]

There was this:

be tipsy (B)
\



msg=215046 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 21:31:36 | u=430

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

TehMightyPirate

Hmmm, seems like we could use a word specifically for being intoxicated srak?



msg=220143 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-05-28 16:37:21 | u=6384

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

leroy329

I've been looking at the forum for some time now, and have been in the skype chat lol but i havent seen the word pwned or really badly beaten lol id like to see that on the word list because my friends and i use that word alot.


thanks

~zach

ps my first post lmao  ::)



msg=230338 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-06-08 01:54:56 | u=21

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

wm.annis

This is as much a 20 questions matter as a vocabulary one:

mask (n).
  assuming the Na'vi are like Human tribal cultures, and have masks as part of their physical culture (say, for dances)
  by analogy, the masks that let puny sawtute breathe



msg=230351 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-06-08 02:25:54 | u=73

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8943.msg215046#msg215046 date=1274391096]
Hmmm, seems like we could use a word specifically for being intoxicated srak?
[/quote]

  Oeru lereiu tìprrte' lenäk ???

That should work for the time being, kefyak?  ;)



msg=234318 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-06-11 14:36:50 | u=1751

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

blueme

Female (and male :D) as adjectives.

Surprisingly, these have not been asked yet (as ADJ.) Now, it is entirely possible that they don't exist as separate words, only as endings, but then it'd be great to get confirmation that we can say things like [desc=female friend]?’eyle[/desc], [desc=female leader]?eykte[/desc], as well as to know how to specify the gender (in some rare cases it could be important) of -yu nouns? ?Tsamsiyan/tsamsiye?

Or could it be that the only possible way would be to say "oeyä ’eylan a lu tute?"



msg=234358 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-06-11 15:26:22 | u=3552

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

tigermind

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8943.msg234318#msg234318 date=1276267010]
Female (and male :D) as adjectives.

Surprisingly, these have not been asked yet (as ADJ.) Now, it is entirely possible that they don't exist as separate words, only as endings, but then it'd be great to get confirmation that we can say things like [desc=female friend]?’eyle[/desc], [desc=female leader]?eykte[/desc], as well as to know how to specify the gender (in some rare cases it could be important) of -yu nouns? ?Tsamsiyan/tsamsiye?

Or could it be that the only possible way would be to say "oeyä ’eylan a lu tute?"
[/quote]

The more times i watch the movie, the more convinced i am that in the scene of Neytiri teaching Jake about tsaheylu she says, "*Pa'le is female"—*pa'le being a hypothetical masculine form of pa'li



msg=234393 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-06-11 16:06:43 | u=430

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8943.msg234358#msg234358 date=1276269982]
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8943.msg234318#msg234318 date=1276267010]
Female (and male :D) as adjectives.

Surprisingly, these have not been asked yet (as ADJ.) Now, it is entirely possible that they don't exist as separate words, only as endings, but then it'd be great to get confirmation that we can say things like [desc=female friend]?’eyle[/desc], [desc=female leader]?eykte[/desc], as well as to know how to specify the gender (in some rare cases it could be important) of -yu nouns? ?Tsamsiyan/tsamsiye?

Or could it be that the only possible way would be to say "oeyä ’eylan a lu tute?"
[/quote]

The more times i watch the movie, the more convinced i am that in the scene of Neytiri teaching Jake about tsaheylu she says, "*Pa'le is female"—*pa'le being a hypothetical masculine form of pa'li
[/quote]
Don't you mean hypothetical feminine of pa'li? I agree that's what she says but I think it's unlikely this would be the construction, I would imagine "pa'lie" being more appropriate. Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me in the future if -an and -e were confirmed to work on more than just pronouns.



msg=234624 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-06-11 20:34:46 | u=3552

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

tigermind

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=8943.msg234393#msg234393 date=1276272403]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8943.msg234358#msg234358 date=1276269982]
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8943.msg234318#msg234318 date=1276267010]
Female (and male :D) as adjectives.

Surprisingly, these have not been asked yet (as ADJ.) Now, it is entirely possible that they don't exist as separate words, only as endings, but then it'd be great to get confirmation that we can say things like [desc=female friend]?’eyle[/desc], [desc=female leader]?eykte[/desc], as well as to know how to specify the gender (in some rare cases it could be important) of -yu nouns? ?Tsamsiyan/tsamsiye?

Or could it be that the only possible way would be to say "oeyä ’eylan a lu tute?"
[/quote]

The more times i watch the movie, the more convinced i am that in the scene of Neytiri teaching Jake about tsaheylu she says, "*Pa'le is female"—*pa'le being a hypothetical masculine form of pa'li
[/quote]
Don't you mean hypothetical feminine of pa'li? I agree that's what she says but I think it's unlikely this would be the construction, I would imagine "pa'lie" being more appropriate. Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me in the future if -an and -e were confirmed to work on more than just pronouns.
[/quote]

*facepalm*  See, this is why i shouldn't multitask.  Yes, i meant feminine.  And i agree with you, "pa'lie" is the word i would expect, and "pa'lian" would be the masculine.  I know in some gendered language the "default" word can be interpreted to be either masculine or neuter, with a separate word for the specifically-feminine (and English still has this, for some animals), but i would expect that this isn't the case in Na'vi—that is, i expect that if there is a feminine-specific form of a word that there is always a corresponding masculine-specific.  But i guess we'll find out!



msg=254031 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-07-02 20:55:20 | u=4754

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Here's a new word suggestion.

Impale - running something through with a spear, sword or other similar item.

Example: He threw his spear with such force that it impaled the yerik against the tree behind it.



msg=256819 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 10:08:06 | u=6744

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

NeuraltNätverk

threaten, vt.



msg=285984 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-08-14 04:35:19 | u=4754

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

A few new word suggestions.

Increase, might be more useful as as 'increased'. Strangely enough, there is a request for 'increasingly'. Examples: 'The youngster showed an increase in his interest in hunting' or 'The rumbling from the volcano increased every day'.

Oddly, there is a suggestion for 'decrease'. Again, 'decreased' might be more useful. I'll leave it up to the linguists here to decide which form or forms of these words are more useful. The same examples above also work with 'decrease' or 'decreased'.

worsen Example: 'The raging infection in his wound only served to worsen his mood'.
Improve Example: 'After yesterday's heavy rains, the weather can only improve'.

aerobatic A term used to describe aerial maneuvers, done for both show and combat. Example: 'She did aerobatic maneuvers while riding her ikran'. Perhaps 'maneuvers' (or just 'maneuver') might be a good word addition as well. Examples: 'The war party practiced maneuvers in preparation for battling the skypeople'. 'He could maneuver his pali into the most difficult places'. I didn't check to see if these has been suggested, but I doubt they have.



msg=298803 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 00:26:50 | u=21

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

wm.annis

Oof.

spotted, dappled; multicolored
Baby hexapedes are spotted.
The forest floor was dappled with light.



msg=299582 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 23:20:06 | u=3552

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

tigermind

storyteller, n.
She was the best storyteller in the village.

Might have connotations of a bard, or someone who tells stories from history and/or legend.

to tell a story, especially in the sense of reciting historical tales, might have a dedicated verb, rather than saying "peng vurit"



msg=299586 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 23:24:55 | u=1550

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Taras

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8943.msg299582#msg299582 date=1283296806]
storyteller, n.
She was the best storyteller in the village.
[/quote]

vurpengyu? No? ;) Poe lamu sweya vurpengyu mì sray :)



msg=299590 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 23:33:29 | u=3552

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

tigermind

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8943.msg299586#msg299586 date=1283297095]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8943.msg299582#msg299582 date=1283296806]
storyteller, n.
She was the best storyteller in the village.
[/quote]

vurpengyu? No? ;) Poe lamu sweya vurpengyu mì sray :)
[/quote]

Tsaw tsunslu, ma 'eylan.  Slä nìawnomun lu melì'u alu 'okrol 'okvursì, ha tuteri a tsafnevurir peng tstxo lu peu?
That's possible, friend.  But as we know, there are the words 'okrol and 'okvur, so what is the name of the person who tells that kind of story?



msg=299594 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 23:56:52 | u=1550

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Taras

Kxawm 'okvurpengyu'okrolpengyu, kefyak?



msg=299609 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 01:09:41 | u=73

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8943.msg299586#msg299586 date=1283297095]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=8943.msg299582#msg299582 date=1283296806]
storyteller, n.
She was the best storyteller in the village.
[/quote]

vurpengyu? No? ;) Poe lamu sweya vurpengyu mì sray :)
[/quote]

[desc=... or "vur.tu", huh?]...fu «vurtu», kefyak?[/desc]



msg=299613 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 01:27:36 | u=1550

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Taras

Lam oer fwa vurtu lu tute a ngop ayvurit.. Slä tsunslu fwa ngaru tìyawr :)
Seems to me that "vurtu" is person which creates stories.. But possible you are right.



msg=299615 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 01:30:55 | u=73

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Prrton

  :o  [desc=an interesting difference.]Eltur tìtxen si a tìketeng.[/desc]  :D  [desc=Really a good idea.]Sìltsana säfpìl nìngay![/desc]

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=8943.msg299613#msg299613 date=1283304456]
Lam oer fwa vurtu lu tute a ngop ayvurit.. Slä tsunslu fwa ngaru tìyawr :)
[/quote]



msg=299617 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 01:38:59 | u=1550

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Taras

Nìngay lu awngar lì'u alu pamtseotu, slä fìpo tsun livu tute a ngop pamtseot, fu nìteng tsat [desc=ngaytxoa, ke rolun oel lì'ut asìltsan fì'uto fte pivlltxe san *play* sìk teri pamtseo]lonu[/desc] suteru alahe :)
Really we have the word "pamtseotu", but this one can be persone which creates music, or also play that for other people.



msg=299677 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 05:07:52 | u=6713

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Peyä Tìrol

Ma Kemaweyan, oel fpìl futa, ay[desc=*culture*, ngaytxoa...]reyfya[/desc]ri a zerok luke pamrel, fko a ayvurit ngop fkosì a ayvurit peng teng pxìm livu. Krr a vur tutemìkam sop, tsaw latem. Ha kxawm, fìlì'u alu vurtu tuteoru a peng ayvurit tsivun ral sivi nìteng, srak?

Kemaweyan, I think that, in cultures that remember without words, one who creates stories and one who tells (them) are often the same. When a story travels between people, it changes. So maybe, "vurtu" can mean a person who tells stories as well?

Sorry! Added translation :3



msg=299955 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 16:36:53 | u=1550

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Taras

Srane, tafral oe poltxe teri lì'u alu pamtseotu ;) Slä nìngay vurit tsun ngivop 'awpo, ki piveng lahea tute, kefyak?
Yes, therefore I said about word "pamtseotu" ;) But really one can create the story, but other person tell it, right?

Nìsung: Oel solar lì'ut alu tute tup tutel, talun tsalì'fyaviri tsun pivlltxe fko san vurit tsun ngivop 'awpo, ki piveng tsun tsat lahea tute sìk. Tafral oel solar fìlì'ut alu luke -l :)
P.S. I used the word "tute" instead of "tutel" because that phrase can be said as "vurit tsun ngivop 'awpo, ki piveng tsun tsat lahea tute". Therefore I used this word without -l.



msg=299962 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 16:44:29 | u=21

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

wm.annis

This is not Na'vi Nì'aw.  It might be nice to help beginners know what we're discussing, so they can participate, too.



msg=299963 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 16:46:08 | u=1550

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Taras

Ok, I'll translate :)

Translated ;)



msg=299971 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 16:57:31 | u=73

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8943.msg299962#msg299962 date=1283359469]
This is not Na'vi Nì'aw.  It might be nice to help beginners know what we're discussing, so they can participate, too.
[/quote]

I believe that I've glossed all my comments now. Sorry.



msg=300127 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 21:28:29 | u=3552

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=8943.msg299962#msg299962 date=1283359469]
This is not Na'vi Nì'aw.  It might be nice to help beginners know what we're discussing, so they can participate, too.
[/quote]

Sorry about that.  I went back and glossed my bit.



msg=300355 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 04:08:50 | u=6713

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Peyä Tìrol

Txeleri, namew txana krr oel faylì'uti alu *grace/graceful/gracefully*.
On that note, a word (family) I've wanted for a while is grace/graceful/gracefully.



msg=352264 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 06:48:18 | u=4754

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Here's a few more random words that would make good additions.

Saliva
"The disease made his saliva dry up."

drool
"At the sight of food, the viperwolf began to drool."

Radio -  Meant in this case as a two-way radio transciever, rather that a radio we would listen to.
"Jake let Tsu`tey know the sykpeople were coming with his radio."

Mods-- you might consider making this a sticky topic, as people post periodically to this thread.



msg=352345 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 13:09:55 | u=11

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

Brainiac

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=8943.msg352264#msg352264 date=1290322098]

Mods-- you might consider making this a sticky topic, as people post periodically to this thread.
[/quote]
thanks. I'll keep it in mind.



msg=401721 | topic=8943 | board=99 | time=2011-01-29 01:46:41 | u=21

Re: words for the Q list – your ideas welcome!

wm.annis

Locked, since there's an [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/word-submissions/]entire project[/url] for this now.



msg=201166 | topic=8959 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 16:17:43 | u=6098

Word Request??? LOL

durza11

Kaltxi!!! I was browsing through the dictionary and found that the word "Climb" was not there..... could someone please come up with a word for "Climb"???



msg=201252 | topic=8959 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 18:05:37 | u=54

Re: Word Request??? LOL

Tiger

That is not the purpose of this forum.  We also generally dont go around inventing new words.  There was a project to offer up what words are needed for the language, but that just concluded.  However, it is already on the list.

Please try to be more careful with your posting in the future.



msg=201590 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 04:03:02 | u=73

Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

[quote=Prrton (to K. Pawl via e-mail)]

[font=Georgia]Is double negation required for the sentence:

  «Ke’u lu ngay» ??

Must it be:

  «Ke’u ke lu ngay»

  in order to be grammatically/semantically correct?

Or, is it acceptable with a non-negated verb, but «Ke'u ke lu ngay» is 95% better?


[quote=Paul Frommer in response via e-mail]It really should be "Ke'u ke lu ngay."

"Ke'u lu ngay" isn't grammatical. (I think I've been consistent in that.)
[/quote]


[/quote]

So there we are...



msg=201598 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 04:19:41 | u=54

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Tiger

I figured as much.  The tone of him recommending a negative in the past didn't seem like it was saying "I'd recommend a double negative" it seemed more like "This needs a double negative".

And dang he answers you fast!  I'm STILL waiting on answers to the questions from "Combining our efforts", and I sent another email yesterday running some stuff by him and didn't get a response.



msg=201602 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 04:33:07 | u=73

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8988.msg201598#msg201598 date=1272860381]

And dang he answers you fast!  I'm STILL waiting on answers to the questions from "Combining our efforts", and I sent another email yesterday running some stuff by him and didn't get a response.
[/quote]

He doesn't always answer me quickly. The only PRAYER for getting a quick answer has been to make the question painfully simple and adding a short example à la the one above doesn't seem to hurt either (as long as it's very very short).

My verbosity does NOT serve me well.

I believe, however, that he's trying to work on Na'vi some tonight and possibly again tomorrow.  ;D

As a general rule moving forward, your and Wm.'s "Combining Our Efforts" methodology seems (to me) like the best way to go.

In fact, is it time to start a III yet?



msg=201605 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 04:38:44 | u=54

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Tiger

I was waiting until I got answers to II.  And my idea was to make it an ongoing thing.  I didn't ask all the questions we had, just took two categories of questions, and as questions get answered I move them off the list.  (In the future I may take just one depending on size, so it won't require him to sit down for as long to respond, and hopefully we'll get an answer quicker.)



msg=201667 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 07:37:33 | u=1751

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

blueme

Tewti! Nang! Fìkrr a’aw aysä’efu oeyä ke lamu keyawrr! :D



msg=202060 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 17:46:42 | u=2812

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

ShadowedSin

So wait, instead of turning the entire sentence negative, negation only works for the topic that it is negating?



msg=202155 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 18:57:43 | u=1620

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

dontbugme

so does this apply for 'e'al + "negative" noun too? eg:
[quote]Nga lu 'e'ala skxawng a oe tsole'a.[/quote]
([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/insults/msg201210/#msg201210]http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/insults/msg201210/#msg201210[/url])



msg=202232 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 20:36:16 | u=54

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Tiger

'e'al isn't really a grammatical negative...  just a semantic one.



msg=202243 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 20:51:54 | u=1751

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

blueme

Also, semantically the "best moron" is still a loser no matter how you look at it, an adjectival modifier one way or another isn't going to make its negative connotation disappear. But yeah, I'd say that the "best moron" is less of a loser (or at the least a better liked one) than the "worst moron", that's how it works in the only double neg language I speak, at any rate. If you're uncertain you can always stick to judgment-neutral attributives like biggest, least, etc.



msg=202368 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 23:03:17 | u=73

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

There may be some subtleties somewhere in some nook or cranny, but for now I'd say that if the main noun/pronoun in the phrase you're talking about starts with something that's clearly derived from KE then the verb needs/requires it too.

  Kepo kayä ne na'rìng. »»»» Kepo KE kayä ne na'rìng.

  Kea txum fìsyuvemì lu. »»»» Kea txum fìsyuvemì KE lu.

  Lu ke'u lehhrap mì satseng. »»»» KE lu ke'u lehhrap mì satseng (kaw'it).

For me personally, it's best to think if it as a "bad habit" from English to not go check the verb to make sure it's negative too. I quite like throwing in lots of 'negativity' because it's common in Spanish (and certain English dialects/registers do it too). It makes the language more flavorful. But, I only learned yesterday that it was REQUIRED.

Fko zene nivume nìtxan.



msg=202409 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 00:07:10 | u=1751

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

blueme

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8988.msg202368#msg202368 date=1272927797]
There may be some subtleties somewhere in some nook or cranny, but for now I'd say that if the main noun/pronoun in the phrase you're talking about starts with something that's clearly derived from KE then the verb needs/requires it too.[/quote]

Like, such as...
[desc=I ain't never living in no Hometree.]Oe ke kawkrr ke kelku ke kelutralmì.[/desc] :D



msg=202430 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 01:10:14 | u=54

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Tiger

Kea oe ke fpìl kea futa kea tsaw keyawr ke lu.



msg=202450 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 01:48:01 | u=73

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=8988.msg202430#msg202430 date=1272935414]
Kea oe ke fpìl kea futa kea tsaw keyawr ke lu.
[/quote]

That's a prodigious amount of negation you've produced there. Impressive!



msg=202452 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 01:49:55 | u=1751

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

blueme

On a more serious (and somewhat related) note, if you have an adj/adv that's negative by default, and you negate it then you end up with the opposite term, i.e. the positive(-ish) counterpart. If you think about it, such "double negatives" are allowed in English as well, by merit of the fact that they are not, actually, double negatives.

incorrectly/[desc=might not exist]?[/desc]nìkeyawr (not correctly)
not incorrectly/ke ?nìkeyawr (not wrongly)

unheard-of (unprecedented)
not unheard-of (familiar)

kerusey ("not-living" – dead)
ke kerusey (not dead – alive)

kakrel ("no-picture" – blind)
ke kakrel (not blind – sighted/seeing)

Kerusey lu fìnantang. — This nantang is dead.
Ke lu kerusey fìnantang. — This nantang isn't dead.



msg=202464 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 02:25:42 | u=73

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8988.msg202452#msg202452 date=1272937795]
On a more serious (and somewhat related) note, if you have an adj/adv that's negative by default, and you negate it then you end up with the opposite term, i.e. the positive(-ish) counterpart. If you think about it, such "double negatives" are allowed in English as well, by merit of the fact that they are not, actually, double negatives.

incorrectly/[desc=might not exist]?[/desc]nìkeyawr (not correctly)
not incorrectly/ke ?nìkeyawr (not wrongly)

unheard-of (unprecedented)
not unheard-of (familiar)

kerusey ("not-living" – dead)
ke kerusey (not dead – alive)

kakrel ("no-picture" – blind)
ke kakrel (not blind – sighted/seeing)

Kerusey lu fìnantang. — This nantang is dead.
Ke lu kerusey fìnantang. — This nantang isn't dead.
[/quote]

This is MUCH MORE IN THE VEIN of the theoretical "nooks & crannies" I was referring to earlier than Kelutral.

Thank you for the rigor!



msg=202678 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 12:08:30 | u=631

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8988.msg202368#msg202368 date=1272927797]
  Kepo kayä ne na'rìng. »»»» Kepo KE kayä ne na'rìng.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
I thought the word for noone was ›kawtu‹ … not ›kepo‹ ???
oel fpìl futa lì’u fpi kea tute limvu san kawtu sìk … kehe san kepo sìk ???



msg=202709 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 13:00:03 | u=1751

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

blueme

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8988.msg202678#msg202678 date=1272974910]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8988.msg202368#msg202368 date=1272927797]
 Kepo kayä ne na'rìng. »»»» Kepo KE kayä ne na'rìng.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
I thought the word for noone was ›kawtu‹ … not ›kepo‹ ???
oel fpìl futa lì’u fpi kea tute limvu san kawtu sìk … kehe san kepo sìk ???

[/quote]

Hmm...now that you mention it, I don't recall having seen kepo either. On the other hand, kea po could be valid, and mean "not him/her", I think.

Lamu kea po futa oel tse’a.Ke lamu po futa oel tse’a.

(There's no double neg in this case.)



msg=202891 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 17:11:10 | u=73

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=8988.msg202678#msg202678 date=1272974910]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8988.msg202368#msg202368 date=1272927797]
  Kepo kayä ne na'rìng. »»»» Kepo KE kayä ne na'rìng.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
I thought the word for noone was ›kawtu‹ … not ›kepo‹ ???
oel fpìl futa lì’u fpi kea tute limvu san kawtu sìk … kehe san kepo sìk ???

[/quote]

It's very possible that I imagined it! HRH!!  :o

Or it might have been something that roger theorized for a day and a half 5 months ago and I started using it. HRH nìmun.

I can't find it in a dictionary either, so I'll change my wicked ways!

  »KAWTU« it is!

  (Or do I have to say, "'KAWTU' it isN'T!" ??)  ;)

Irayo!



msg=204677 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 19:14:47 | u=195

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

esoanem

I was just looking over some old stuff in the canon and was remind of Frommer's sentence:

[desc=I didn't think that there was anyone that could speak na'vi like that at this point]Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na'vi set fìfya pivlltxe![/desc]

and I noticed the ke on fparmìl and the lack of one on tute, does this mean that negation is done on a clause level as opposed to a sentence level (in which case this could get interesting with modals) or is this sentence now considered incorrect?



msg=204687 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 19:26:28 | u=21

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

wm.annis

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8988.msg204677#msg204677 date=1273173287]and I noticed the ke on fparmìl and the lack of one on tute, does this mean that negation is done on a clause level as opposed to a sentence level (in which case this could get interesting with modals) or is this sentence now considered incorrect?[/quote]

Ooh, pleonastic negation had better work at the clause level.  That would be freaky grammar to cross clause boundaries.  The tute isn't part of the fparmìl clause in any way — futa is.



msg=204705 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 19:42:26 | u=195

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

esoanem

Hence I suggested that it operated on a clause level.

Anyway, I believe that in Spanish it would operate on a sentence level although Spanish only allows double negatives rather than requiring them so that could cause this.

I think it could be (missing accents): (negatives in bold)

no creia que hay nadie que puede hablar na'vi tan bueno ya

That said, I might be wrong, my spanish is by no means at all perfect.



msg=204785 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 21:02:04 | u=1751

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

blueme

Here's my [desc=and it's usually wrong :)]intuition[/desc].

Oel ke yom ke’ut a lu letxum.
[font=Lucida Console]I don't eat nothing that's poisonous.

Oel ke yom futa lu letxum syuve.
[font=Lucida Console]I don't eat this-poisonous-food-thing.

This tells me that the "[desc=fì-]this[/desc]" part of fwa (& co.), which references a concrete instance in the universe, is what prevents negation, in other words, you cannot point to something, and say that "See this? So, this isn't here." And it kinda makes sense too. :D

Oel ke yom kea syuvet.
[font=Lucida Console]I don't eat no food.

Oel ke yom kea fìsyuvet.
[font=Lucida Console]I don't eat no this food.



msg=204992 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 04:53:03 | u=73

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8988.msg204705#msg204705 date=1273174946]
Hence I suggested that it operated on a clause level.

Anyway, I believe that in Spanish it would operate on a sentence level although Spanish only allows double negatives rather than requiring them so that could cause this.

I think it could be (missing accents): (negatives in bold)

no creia que hay nadie que puede hablar na'vi tan bueno ya

That said, I might be wrong, my spanish is by no means at all perfect.
[/quote]

My Spanish is far far from perfect too, but I think this sentence would *more* likely/commonly be rendered in Spanish as:

[desc=Sparmaw oel]Creía[/desc] [desc=futa]que[/desc] [desc=ke]no[/desc] [desc=lu]hay[/desc] ([desc=larmu]había[/desc]) [desc=kawtu]nadie[/desc] [desc=a]que[/desc] [desc=tsun]puede[/desc] ([desc=tsarmun]podía[/desc]) [desc=p(iv)lltxe]hablar[/desc] [desc=lì'fyati leNa'vi]el na'vi[/desc] [desc=fìtxan]tan[/desc] [desc=nìltsan]bueno[/desc] [desc=“already”/«set»]ya[/desc].

But the que clause being the present makes me squeamish.  ;)

"I don't think so." is most commonly (properly?) «[desc=I believe]Creo[/desc] [desc=that]que[/desc] [desc=not]no[/desc].» but one also hears «No creo.» more colloquially.

Na'vi seems to be a bit more English-like (and Japanese-like) than Spanish in this regard, but I agree that the negation (as I understand it) happens on a clause by clause basis.

And I'm sidetracking the discussion a bit, but I'm personally about 95% sure that our Na'vi group vocative «ya» came from that exact «ya» at the end of your sentence. ;)



msg=205021 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 07:11:00 | u=195

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

esoanem

That does look a lot nicer.

As for ya nìesípanyol -> -ya nìna'vi I don't see it, yes it's the same sound (identical in fact) but the meaning, syntax and pretty much everything else is different.



msg=205351 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 17:13:02 | u=73

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=8988.msg205021#msg205021 date=1273216260]
That does look a lot nicer.

As for ya nìesípanyol -> -ya nìna'vi I don't see it, yes it's the same sound (identical in fact) but the meaning, syntax and pretty much everything else is different.
[/quote]

Correct. On every point. BUT, IMAGÍNATE: you are Zoe SaldaÑa throwing your passion into acting and (perhaps, a theory on my part) Espanyol is your "bridge language" to «el na'vi». You're really trying to get Tsu'tey and gang to refrain from killing Jake on the spot. If [desc=Prrton]*[/desc]I listen to what my Spanish bridge language would provide to me semantically for this meaning in this situation, I get (in Castillian):

 [desc=mawey (säpi)]Calmados[/desc], [desc=Na’vi]gente[/desc], [desc=set / TAM]YA[/desc]![desc=It sounds like something directly out of an Almodovar film ;-)]*[/desc]

She only had a script. She didn't have other vocabulary available to her. She didn't really SPEAK Na'vi. She couldn't pull TAM out of her language hat, so she used «ya» ("now/already") from her [url=http://bit.ly/cCFISL]repositorio español[/url].

My primary bridge language to Thai is Japanese. Thai lacks handy words for "yes" and "no". I have embarrassingly to me on more than one occasion blurted out HAI HAI while speaking Thai. Hai[desc=also fits in phonetically quite well and]*[/desc] means a lot of things in Thai, but "yes" is not one of them.  ;)

This is my xenolinguistic forensic theory and I'm sticking with it.  :)



msg=205376 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 17:35:06 | u=195

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

esoanem

Ah ok, now I see where you're coming from.

That makes a lot of sense now.



msg=205619 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 22:09:51 | u=1751

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

blueme

{If you put a single quote/apostrophe inside a bubble, make sure to preface the entire text with a \\ otherwise the whole thing doesn't appear in the posted message (thought it does in the preview.)

Like this:
[desc=mawey (säpi)]Calmados[/desc], [desc=\\Na'vi]gente[/desc], [desc=set / TAM]YA[/desc]![desc=It sounds like something directly out of an Almodovar film ;-)]*[/desc]
}



msg=206802 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 17:46:46 | u=73

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8988.msg205619#msg205619 date=1273270191]
{If you put a single quote/apostrophe inside a bubble, make sure to preface the entire text with a \\ otherwise the whole thing doesn't appear in the posted message (thought it does in the preview.)

Like this:
[desc=mawey (säpi)]Calmados[/desc], [desc=\\Na'vi]gente[/desc], [desc=set / TAM]YA[/desc]![desc=It sounds like something directly out of an Almodovar film ;-)]*[/desc]
}
[/quote]

Irayo!

Oe fmarmi ziverok fte sivar na « [font=Georgia] » ke « [font=Georgia]' » slä pxìm tswera' nìwotx.



msg=206842 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 19:02:50 | u=1751

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

blueme

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8988.msg206802#msg206802 date=1273427206]
Oe fmarmi ziverok fte sivar na « [font=Georgia] » ke « [font=Georgia]' » slä pxìm tswera' nìwotx.[/quote]

Krro kin \\ hu ’ kop, slä hapxìeo pamrelä, fìfya: \\’.

Lahea ’u: lumpe pamrel sami ngal futa sivar fmiuo? ‹Iv› nì’aw uo zene tsunsì kin a fì’ut fpamìl oel.



msg=206956 | topic=8988 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 21:02:27 | u=73

Re: Double Negatives - NOT OPTIONAL

Prrton

[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=8988.msg206842#msg206842 date=1273431770]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=8988.msg206802#msg206802 date=1273427206]
Oe fmarmi ziverok fte sivar na « [font=Georgia] » ke « [font=Georgia]' » slä pxìm tswera' nìwotx.[/quote]

Krro kin \\ hu ’ kop, slä hapxìeo pamrelä, fìfya: \\’.

Lahea ’u: lumpe pamrel sami ngal futa sivar fmi uo? ‹Iv› nì’aw uo zene tsunsì kin a fì’ut fpamìl oel.
[/quote]

[quote=Frommer]Kaltxì, ma Kemeoauniaea--

Mesìpawmìri atxantsan seiyi oe ngar irayo. Pxiset ke lu oeru krr fte tì'eyngit tivìng, slä fmayi oe 'iveyng ye'rìn. Tsakrrvay, ngeyä tìmweypeyri irayo.

ta Pawl[/quote]

    [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/another-email-ta-frommer-no-answers-as-of-yet-but-a-few-interesting-points/msg196441/#msg196441]Fìtsengeta[/url]

Kxawm natsew nga tsive'a [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/another-email-ta-frommer-no-answers-as-of-yet-but-a-few-interesting-points/msg196703/#msg196703]fì'itit fmawnä oeta[/url] nìteng a za'u tsakìngmì ateng. Lu tsaw tì'i'a asim nìtxan.



msg=203191 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 22:38:45 | u=430

Charge (verb)

TehMightyPirate

As obvious as it is, we now have a canon verb for this:

Kxll si - charge (verb)

from here: [url=http://thereadinginpublicproject.blogspot.com/2010/05/paul-frommer.html]http://thereadinginpublicproject.blogspot.com/2010/05/paul-frommer.html[/url]



msg=203229 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-04 23:45:08 | u=631

Re: Charge (verb)

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Thank you, ma Ftiafpi. :)

Don’t forget the idiomatic expression ’uo ’ok tseyä lu oer »I remember something«, or is that too uncertain as of yet?

It’s discussed [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/sentence-analysis/re-idiomatic-expressions/msg203001/#msg203001]here[/url]



msg=203247 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 00:38:10 | u=0

Re: Charge (verb)

Swoka Swizaw

Now we need a word for battery.

...;D



msg=203262 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 01:48:30 | u=54

Re: Charge (verb)

Tiger

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=9069.msg203247#msg203247 date=1273019890]
Now we need a word for battery.

...;D
[/quote]Duh...

Tì'eko. :D



msg=203292 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 03:41:32 | u=430

Re: Charge (verb)

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9069.msg203262#msg203262 date=1273024110]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=9069.msg203247#msg203247 date=1273019890]
Now we need a word for battery.

...;D
[/quote]Duh...

Tì'eko. :D
[/quote]

hrh



msg=203328 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 06:15:11 | u=4754

Re: Charge (verb)

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=9069.msg203247#msg203247 date=1273019890]
Now we need a word for battery.

...;D
[/quote]

Next, we will need terms for positive, negative, volt, ampere, ohm, watt. And for Pandora, superconducting.

Next, I'll be figuring out a way to express Ohm's law in Na`vi.....

And, you might hear Na`vi women use this term when they get a chance to go shopping.... ;)



msg=203342 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 07:09:56 | u=73

Re: Charge (verb)

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=9069.msg203292#msg203292 date=1273030892]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9069.msg203262#msg203262 date=1273024110]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=9069.msg203247#msg203247 date=1273019890]
Now we need a word for battery.

...;D
[/quote]Duh...

Tì'eko. :D
[/quote]

hrh
[/quote]

Txurasel®

We can't have it be «Enertsyayzer» because then we'd need a word for "rabbit" and a color for "pink" too. Of course, we do already have «nìlkeftang» AND «au» AND «fnelew a tsun menariru tìhawnu sivi tsawkeyä atanwä».... Hmmm.... Maybe I should reconsider...



msg=203436 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 12:01:52 | u=5773

Re: Charge (verb)

R One

Kaltxì ma OChristi si wm.ennis,

As you are adding words to the Vocabulary page, would it be possible to include the source reference (i.e. [url=http://thereadinginpublicproject.blogspot.com/2010/05/paul-frommer.html]http://thereadinginpublicproject.blogspot.com/2010/05/paul-frommer.html[/url]) for kxll and kxll si?

I also noticed (with the help of a source parser that I wrote) some minor formatting incoherences :
- sevin : the clause "in contrast..." is between () instead of []
- Some references miss the surrounding parentheses :
    [[Canon#Atan Is Illumination...]]
    [http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/luke-kxu-without-harm/]
    [http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/all-adpositions/forum post]

/R One



msg=203460 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 12:31:51 | u=21

Re: Charge (verb)

wm.annis

[quote author=R One link=topic=9069.msg203436#msg203436 date=1273060912]I also noticed (with the help of a source parser that I wrote) some minor formatting incoherences :
- sevin : the clause "in contrast..." is between () instead of []
- Some references miss the surrounding parentheses[/quote]

Um.  It's a wiki.  Once you have an account, you can fix these things, too.  There isn't some special club membership required to tidy up that list.  :)



msg=203501 | topic=9069 | board=99 | time=2010-05-05 13:31:25 | u=0

Re: Charge (verb)

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=9069.msg203342#msg203342 date=1273043396]
Txurasel®

[/quote]

Beautiful. I actually laughed out loud.



msg=204535 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 17:19:22 | u=1975

minor confirmation: uvan si

Ean Tirea

kaltxì ma oeyä eylan. (ayngal snìmaytx uvanit.)

So here is the email conv between me and Frommer:

[quote=me 5/4/10]Hello, Dr. Frommer. Syaw fko oeru Tirea Aean ta [url=http://www.learnnavi.org]www.learnnavi.org[/url]. I would like to make this quick, because I know you are supremely busy. I love the Na'vi language with much passion. There is just something about "noun si" constructions that is bugging me. They are supposed to be intransitive, right? I saw this in one of our documents on learnnavi.org:

"...and when a sentence has an si verb, the object takes the dative
ending: Oe uvan si ay+au-ru. I play the drums..."

For one, I thought that since uvan=game, then uvan si=to play a game. not play as in play the drums. Am I correct about this?

Also, is that statement about si constructions using dative as a direct object true? I always thought that the dative was for indirect objects...or am I misunderstanding?

Krrìri ngengeyä seiyi oe ngengar irayo ma nawma karyu!

--Tirea Aean
[/quote]

[quote=Paul Frommer 5/6/10]Kaltxì ma Tirea Aean,

Ngeyä 'upxareri seiyi oe irayo.

"Si constructions" are unusual, I know. So let me try to clarify them a bit for you:

It is correct that they're syntactically intransitive, with the "object" in the dative. One of the clearest examples is with "srung si," which as you know is the verb "help." In English, "help" is transitive--A helps B, and B is the direct object. But in Na'vi, it's more along the lines of "A engages in or performs help for (the sake of) B." So "I help you" is "Oe srung si ngaru"--literally, "I do helping to you."

Some si-constructions correspond to intransitives in English, and these don't take a dative: examples are "kelku si" (dwell) and "tìkangkem si" (work). But "kavuk si" (betray) works like "srung si":

Po kavuk soli awngar.
He betrayed us. (More literally, he engaged in betrayal to us.)

That said, the example with "uvan si" isn't accurate. You're right--"uvan si" is "play" in the sense of playing a game, not in the sense of playing an instrument. Some languages have the same word for both senses of play, but many, like Na'vi, do not. (We don't yet have a word for play in the instrumental sense, but it's on the list. <g>)

Thanks again for your question.

Sìlpey oe, ngeyä tìtslamur srung soli nì'it.

Eywa ngahu.

ta Pawl

[/quote]

This is obviously a minor update. From this we confirm that uvan si = play a GAME(and nothing else.)



msg=204555 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 17:34:52 | u=430

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

TehMightyPirate

Ahhh, Frommer is such an amazing guy. Anyone else as busy as he is would have just responded with a few sentences but Frommer responds with multiple, well-thought out, paragraphs. Good info (if mostly redundant).

First e-mail to Frommer?



msg=204565 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 17:44:28 | u=1975

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=9111.msg204555#msg204555 date=1273167292]
Ahhh, Frommer is such an amazing guy. Anyone else as busy as he is would have just responded with a few sentences but Frommer responds with multiple, well-thought out, paragraphs. Good info (if mostly redundant).

First e-mail to Frommer?
[/quote]

Yeah, he's the man. I thought it would have taken him longer to reply with how busy he is, but no! he replied pretty quickly and wasnt abrupt about it.

the main purpose of this post is to point out that "uvan si" is strictly "to engage in playing a game"...I probably should have cut everything else out, because I already knew all of that other stuff too, but Na'vi in a Nutshell said something that I thought was weird, so I decided to ask about it, and all my prior belief was confirmed.

Yes, this was my first contact with him. ;D



msg=204580 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 17:59:44 | u=971

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

marger

[quote]Some si-constructions correspond to intransitives in English, and these don't take a dative: examples are "kelku si" (dwell) and "tìkangkem si" (work). But "kavuk si" (betray) works like "srung si":[/quote]

Call me a skxawng if you want, but couldn't we use "tìkangkem si" with -ru too, like "work for someone", or "do work for someone"?

And this is an interesting thing... i never thought about why -ru can be the object of intransitive verbs... now i know :D


And finally, yeah, Karyu Pawl [desc=sorry, ma tsrräfkxätu, if you see this, but i like this too much :D:D means "rocks" of course]tskxe seiyi[/desc]!



msg=204599 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 18:15:21 | u=1975

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

Ean Tirea

that would be

_____ tìkangkem si fpi ______.



msg=204609 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 18:22:41 | u=971

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

marger

That would be good, but if i'd want to say " i'm his employee "? It would be (aside the fact that it's a totally letawtutea reading of this word) with -ru...
So i think -ru should be good too... sometimes...
[spoiler]i just try to show, that my version can be good in some time (usually these attempts fail ;)), so i understand why fpi is good here, it's just my pride...[/spoiler]



msg=204615 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 18:25:50 | u=195

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

esoanem

I don't like the look of tìkangkem si + dative.

I'd either use fpi on the employer or <eyk> and put the employee in the accusative.

Actually, that sounds quite good:

I work for the olo'eyktan = olo'eyktanìl oeti tìkangkem seyki = the olo'eyktan makes me work.



msg=204619 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 18:29:42 | u=21

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

wm.annis

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=9111.msg204615#msg204615 date=1273170350]Actually, that sounds quite good:

I work for the olo'eyktan = olo'eyktanìl oeti tìkangkem seyki = the olo'eyktan makes me work.[/quote]

That depends on how strong a the Na'vi causative has a "control" overtone (some linguists worry about "control" in verbs quite a lot).  If it's strong control, your sentence means you work for the olo'eyktan without you having any say over the matter yourself.

In this situation, I actually am comfortable with fpi.  ;)



msg=204625 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 18:34:05 | u=195

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

esoanem

Not being a linguist I jumped on it because I sounded plausible, if it might be more a master-slave relationship than employer-employee so be it.  :D

Interestingly I had considered olo'eyktan oefa tìkangkem si which certainly implies a complete of lack of control on my part. Maybe it is possible to distinguish between two levels of control in causatives by using either -fa- or <eyk>?

The fpi option is certainly correct.



msg=204783 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-06 21:00:17 | u=54

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

Tiger

Not really relevant in this case, but just because si-verbs use the dative where normally an object would be, doesn't mean semantically intransitive verbs can't still use the dative.

Consider "Eltu si" - pay attention.  Intransitive.  But you can pay attention to someone, and that to someone would be in the dative.  "Eltu si oer" - pay attention to me.

For work, though, I agree that dative doesn't make much sense.



msg=205072 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 10:35:17 | u=631

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Of course, confirmation with that would be great but since you can also »direct your attention toward somebody« I could imagine that you could also use the ADP ne for that.

On another note: I think we had this discussion somewhere else some time ago – do we suspect that »play« a character (e.g. in a drama) or »make believe« or »to pretend« respectively will be something different as well?



msg=205344 | topic=9111 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 17:05:04 | u=195

Re: minor confirmation: uvan si

esoanem

1. No. Ne is directional. English uses to in a lot of ways that don't translate well.

2. Possibly, depending on the context pretending could be seen as a game. Most other uses of play would probably be separate words though.



msg=205679 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 23:31:52 | u=1225

History of tsaw

neotrekkerz

So, most of this we know, but here's some further info about all the tsa and tsa'u forms (courtesy of Frommer of course):

[quote=Frommer]Tsa isn't used by itself. Like fì-, it's only a prefix: tsatute 'that person,' tsakilvan 'that river.'

Tsa'u and tsaw ARE used alone--they're pronouns, meaning 'that thing' or just 'it.' And they're used interchangeably. (There's no form tsau.)

There are other such pairs as well. For example, the object form of 'that thing' or 'it' is either tsa'ut(i) or tsat.[/quote]

And about that w:

[quote=Frommer]Well, the development of tsaw from tsa'u is as follows:

In fast speech, the glottal stop was likely to drop, yielding tsau. The -au- combination then quickly turned into a diphthong. That is,

tsa'u > tsau > tsaw

(Note that au > aw did not happen with the word for drum, au, which retains two syllables.)

That said, the other forms don't have the diphthong. So it's tsal, tsat(i), tsar(u), not *tsawl, *tsawt, *tsawr. In other words, these forms have gone one step further, losing the diphthong: aw > a.

All of that, I think, is pretty natural.[/quote]

What I also take away from all this is that the tsane which we use with the "where" conjunction tsengit a is a [desc=or whatever the proper linguistic term is]contraction[/desc] of tsawne.

Irayo K. Pawl!



msg=205685 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 23:47:49 | u=430

Re: History of tsaw

TehMightyPirate

ahhhh, so one can't use simply tsa. Good to know.



msg=205686 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 23:54:02 | u=1550

Re: History of tsaw

Taras

Irayo. Oe kawkrr ke tsamun tslilvam tìketengit mìkam pxelì'u a san tsa sìk, san tsa'u sìk, sì san tsaw sìk :) Ulte ke amomängum pelì'ut nìeyawr oe zene sivar. Set oer tsaw law lu ;) Irayo nìmun :)



msg=205773 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-08 04:43:50 | u=1120

Re: History of tsaw

roger

Don't we have seyä attested? And sawä? Is one of these incorrect?



msg=206083 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-08 15:31:21 | u=3552

Re: History of tsaw

tigermind

Fì'upxareri ta awngeyä karyu ngaru irayo seiyi oe, ma Neo.  Fì'u oeru srung sivi nìtxan.



msg=206586 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 10:41:18 | u=2788

Re: History of tsaw

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=roger link=topic=9167.msg205773#msg205773 date=1273293830]
Don't we have seyä attested? And sawä? Is one of these incorrect?
[/quote]
We do:

Tengkrr palulukan moene kxll sarmi, poltxe Neytiril aylì’ut a frakrr ’ok seyä layu oer.

With this new info -- which partly contradicts [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/msg140186/#msg140186]this[/url] regarding "the other forms" -- it seems like *sawä is indeed incorrect, but that *tsa'uä/*sa'uä would be kosher.

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=9167.msg205679#msg205679 date=1273275112]
What I also take away from all this is that the tsane which we use with the "where" conjunction tsengit a is a [desc=or whatever the proper linguistic term is]contraction[/desc] of tsawne.
[/quote]
Yeah, it also seems that whenever tsaw gets suffixed, by case endings or not, [desc=linguistic term :P]monophthongization[/desc] occurs.



msg=206594 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 10:56:19 | u=54

Re: History of tsaw

Tiger

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=9167.msg206586#msg206586 date=1273401678]
Yeah, it also seems that whenever tsaw gets suffixed, by case endings or not, [desc=linguistic term :P]monophthongization[/desc] occurs.
[/quote]That sounds like something that should be listed as a side effect to some medication.

May cause monophthongization in some patience, contact your doctor and discontinue taking the medication if it lasts more than a few hours.



msg=206796 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 17:34:35 | u=73

Re: History of tsaw

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9167.msg206594#msg206594 date=1273402579]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=9167.msg206586#msg206586 date=1273401678]
Yeah, it also seems that whenever tsaw gets suffixed, by case endings or not, [desc=linguistic term :P]monophthongization[/desc] occurs.
[/quote]That sounds like something that should be listed as a side effect to some medication.

May cause monophthongization in some patience, contact your doctor and *discontinue taking the medication if it lasts more than a few hours.
[/quote]

*Slä rä'ä ftang ftivia lì'fyati leNa'vi kawkrr.  ;)



msg=207047 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-10 00:44:29 | u=4754

Re: History of tsaw

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=9167.msg206586#msg206586 date=1273401678]
Yeah, it also seems that whenever tsaw gets suffixed, by case endings or not, [desc=linguistic term :P]monophthongization[/desc] occurs.
[/quote]

Dang! I knew there was at least one word missing that should have been on the LEP 'A' list  :D



msg=207076 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-10 02:15:21 | u=1225

Re: History of tsaw

neotrekkerz

[quote]With this new info -- which partly contradicts this regarding "the other forms" -- it seems like *sawä  is indeed incorrect, but that *tsa'uä/*sa'uä would be kosher.[/quote]

That's interesting that he gives tsawri as a possibility in the quote in that link.  I specifically asked him about those endings, so I guess he's now decided against it.

Monophthongization...much cooler sounding than contraction.  :)



msg=207211 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-10 05:42:19 | u=631

Re: History of tsaw

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I thought this whole discussion was settled with William's [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/dense-navi-grammar-summary-%28pdf%29/]Cheat Sheet[/url] and with Frommer's replies on it and the "[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/genitive-case-refinement-declension-of-tsaw/]Declension of tsaw[/url]"

tsaw, tsal, tseyä, tsaru, tsat, tsari

From the example that Lance has given above the plural forms seem to be lenited.

Am I missing a crucial point here? When did we get confused again? :P



msg=207216 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-10 06:02:43 | u=1225

Re: History of tsaw

neotrekkerz

I was always confused about whether we could have tsa by itself.  Our first quote from Frommer about it (combining our efforts I) had tsa listed by itself as "it."  Then I wasn't sure whether you had to drop the w or if it was just an option.  Like I said, most of it we knew from before, but now at least we know concretely which forms of each version are allowed.



msg=208090 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-11 09:15:40 | u=1120

Re: History of tsaw

roger

Paul had earlier given "tsawl" etc. as forms alongside "tsal", so it appeared that there were two words, "tsa" 'it' and "tsa'u ~ tsaw" 'that'. The language is still being developed, and one of the worries Paul had about describing it publicly would be getting locked into things he later decided he didn't like. (There are a handful of words which haven't been released yet for that very reason.) So I have no problem with him releasing what he has and then changing his mind on some points. Better that than him keeping it confidential until he's satisfied that it's finished -- in 2015 or so.



msg=208306 | topic=9167 | board=99 | time=2010-05-11 16:10:29 | u=3552

Re: History of tsaw

tigermind

Oe mllte, ma Roger.  I can certainly abide the Na'vi language shifting a bit under our feet, rather than us having nothing to stand on at all.



msg=209489 | topic=9343 | board=99 | time=2010-05-12 22:14:23 | u=54

A few quickies from Frommer

Tiger

Don't expect too much this week as he's busy with CSU related stuff (You know, his day job?) but I did get a few tidbits from this weekend.

First was about word order.  In the lessons I made recently I had been giving translations of OSV order as passive sentences in English.  He wasn't entirely happy about that, not because it can't be the case, but because it wouldn't always be.  As an example, he could not think of a case where "You are seen by me" would be used in English conversations, although syntactically and grammatically there is nothing wrong with it.  On the other hand, "Ngati oel tse'a" would be perfectly natural in Na'vi.

However, he still doesn't really have any sort of clear guidance as to when you would use the different word orders.

Second is something that I have played devils advocate against for awhile, merely pointing out that we don't know.  However, I can stop that now as we know.  In "si" constructs (Excepting cases where the assisting noun is contextual) it is always "noun si".  (From examples like "tsakem rä'ä si", I'd imagine adverbs like rä'ä and possibly also ke could be slipped in between, but no comment on that as I hadn't asked.)  So the "si irayo" form is the exception to the rule, rather than a counter-example.  Then again, irayo isn't a true noun anyway.



msg=209521 | topic=9343 | board=99 | time=2010-05-12 22:58:35 | u=631

Re: A few quickies from Frommer

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Thanks for keeping us up-to-date, ma omängum



msg=209618 | topic=9343 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 01:04:06 | u=0

Re: A few quickies from Frommer

Swoka Swizaw

Assuming that this week is Finals Week at CSU, of course he'd be busy as hell. But this summer...oooo! Should be packed (in our favor). Hopefully.



msg=209626 | topic=9343 | board=99 | time=2010-05-13 01:30:53 | u=3552

Re: A few quickies from Frommer

tigermind

Cool, thanks for the update.  Summer will be exciting!



msg=215171 | topic=9343 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 03:30:40 | u=1117

Re: A few quickies from Frommer

Queso6p4

Many thanks. It's good to see Na'vi coming together more and more. I'm also curious as to why you tended to render OSV sentences in the passive voice in English.



msg=215223 | topic=9343 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 04:18:02 | u=73

Re: A few quickies from Frommer

Prrton

[quote author=Queso6p4 link=topic=9343.msg215171#msg215171 date=1274412640]
Many thanks. It's good to see Na'vi coming together more and more. I'm also curious as to why you tended to render OSV sentences in the passive voice in English.
[/quote]

That's the closest thing that Na'vi has for the passive voice. It's the "official" way to do it. There is a "passive participle" that works as an adjectival modifier of nouns for direct modification, but it cannot be used predicative. It is pre-first position -awn-. «T-awn-aron» for "hunted" »»» yerik atawnaron ("a hunted yerik"), but yerikit tolaron (fkol) ("a yerik was hunted (by one (someone)").



msg=215321 | topic=9343 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 11:21:47 | u=195

Re: A few quickies from Frommer

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9343.msg209489#msg209489 date=1273702463]
it is always "noun si"
[/quote]

Yay! I wasn't as wrong as I thought! a-nounsusi/nounsusi-a becomes a possibility again!  :D



msg=211083 | topic=9411 | board=99 | time=2010-05-15 09:35:53 | u=631

Kelutral aKe’aw

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Ma eylan,

early in March I wrote a little story, named »Kelutral aKe’aw«, in which I used these words:

ke’aw adj. = divided, torn apart, strife-ridden
sti adv. = angrily

With the tremendous help of Prrton, the story is, firstly, in its final form and can be read and listened to [url=http://masempul.org/2010/05/kelutral-ake%E2%80%99aw/][font=Verdana]HERE
[/url]. Secondly these words got to Karyu Pawl and he approved of both words:

[quote=Paul Frommer, 7 May, 2010]I'll be delighted to give my blessing to ke'aw for "divided." Very nice. I agree that with the morphemes intact as they are here, it's an appropriate way to express division. As for the stress, I went back and forth, since either way could be justified. But I finally decided on ultimate stress: ke'AW. Most (but not all) of the ke-based words (kawkrr, ke'u, kawtu, etc.) are stressed on the first syllable; stressing ke'aw on the second seems in keeping with the special (unmerged) quality of the word.

NìSTI is fine for "angrily."[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Thanks again so much, ma Prrton, for the effort and the hope you put into this.
I hope you all enjoy the story.

—ayngeyä Plumps



msg=211151 | topic=9411 | board=99 | time=2010-05-15 11:57:04 | u=1120

Re: Kelutral aKe’aw

roger

Confirmation that kaw- derives from ke-'aw, as we suspected.



msg=211348 | topic=9411 | board=99 | time=2010-05-15 17:14:10 | u=73

Re: Kelutral aKe’aw

Prrton

[quote author=roger link=topic=9411.msg211151#msg211151 date=1273924624]
Confirmation that kaw- derives from ke-'aw, as we suspected.
[/quote]
I never occurred to me that it wasn't already confirmed!  :o  Very good point.

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=9411.msg211083#msg211083 date=1273916153]
[font=Garamond]Thanks again so much, ma Prrton, for the effort and the hope you put into this.
[/quote]
It was my pleasure only. It's a wonderful parable.

I've been thinking about the fact that these stories, poems, songs, etc. (whether original or translations) might one day be incorporated into learning materials (in the clever way that tsmukan Wm. glossed his first Coyote/Nantang translation). Is there anywhere yet on any of the boards where anyone's creating a «Kelku leVur» and assembling a collection of things originated in Lì'fayolo' leNa'vi? If they're all together, perhaps that might make it easier for K. Pawl eventually go through and make suggestions/corrections (if that's appealing to him). That might produce a large volume of canonical material very quickly and give him opportunities to think about structure a bit more too (in the same way that he produced two versions of the Golden Rule). Just an idea...



msg=211444 | topic=9411 | board=99 | time=2010-05-15 19:35:26 | u=3552

Re: Kelutral aKe’aw

tigermind

Cool!  I'll look forward to reading your story soon—but for now, i have a late paper i seriously need to be finishing X(

Thanks for sharing the new words!  Eywa ngahu.



msg=211681 | topic=9411 | board=99 | time=2010-05-16 08:53:53 | u=1620

Re: Kelutral aKe’aw

dontbugme

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=9411.msg211348#msg211348 date=1273943650]
auI've been thinking about the fact that these stories, poems, songs, etc. (whether original or translations) might one day be incorporated into learning materials (in the clever way that tsmukan Wm. glossed his first Coyote/Nantang translation). Is there anywhere yet on any of the boards where anyone's creating a «Kelku leVur» and assembling a collection of things originated in Lì'fayolo' leNa'vi? If they're all together, perhaps that might make it easier for K. Pawl eventually go through and make suggestions/corrections (if that's appealing to him). That might produce a large volume of canonical material very quickly and give him opportunities to think about structure a bit more too (in the same way that he produced two versions of the Golden Rule). Just an idea...
[/quote]
I don't think a place like this already exists, but it would be very helpful. Even if its not used for learning materials, it would allow newbies to choose a good text for learning by topic and size(maybe something from the quotes-thread should be added too) that is not only worth reading for learning purposes.
and if you have texts that have been reviewed many times you can be sure that they are mostly correct



msg=211842 | topic=9411 | board=99 | time=2010-05-16 14:57:40 | u=132

Re: Kelutral aKe’aw

Taronyu

Added. Good idea for words. :)



msg=212232 | topic=9411 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 04:33:06 | u=4754

Re: Kelutral aKe’aw

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Using stories to teach language is nothing new. It has been used as a primary learning tool for centuries. Thusly, it is a great idea, and a priority should be made to develop a series of learning stories.

These stories might graduated from easy to difficult, with a list of vocabulary to be learned for each.

Reading and translating a story is one of the easiest way there is to quickly assimilating vocabulary.

Stories should be of stbstantial length, based on the intended audience. Thus a basic reading lession might be a paragraph, the really challenging ones a page or two. The followup to the story would be a retelling in the language one is moving from and/or a comprehension quiz.

If my Na`vi skills were better, this is something I would really enjoy working on. Well, I guess that is a reason to stick with it!

Even though I was already a prolific writer, I did a high school course that used a self-paced reading program like this, and it helped me immensely.



msg=212193 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 01:49:20 | u=3552

Life, Death, and gerunds

tigermind

Kaltxì, ma smuk.  I recently sent a message to Karyu Pawl asking about the words for life and death—tìrey and kxitx, respectively.  I was a little surprised that "death" wasn't tìterkup, and wanted to ask about that.  You can read the relevant parts of my message here, if you want:

[spoiler]We've seen the word "life" given as tìrey—which, as i understood it, also covered "to live."  And then we also got tìrusey—the noun form of "living."  So, i was a little surprised when we got the word kxitx for "death"—i had been expecting *tìterkup.  But then, i was thinking that maybe there's a particular nuance here:  Kxitx is the idea, the concept, the notion of death; while maybe the actual phenomenon, the expiration of the body, the very "real" and present death and dying would still be *tìterkup.

And, if that's the case, i thought maybe there would be a word for "life" that mirrors kxitx—a word not for the day-to-day act of living, but of the concept of life, the all-pervading energy of living things—maybe we would say Life.  Does that make any sense?  In any case, i was wondering if you could clarify the differences in shades of meaning between these words.  [...]  Sleykivu utralìl lì'fyayä leNa'vi pxaya ayvurit atxur.[/spoiler]

But of course, the important part is Karyu Pawl's reply:

ta Karyu Pawl:[quote]
LIFE
The verb 'to live,' as you know, is simply rey. Tìrey has been functioning as both the abstract concept of life ("Life should be joyful") and as an individual's own particular life, as in Oe tsole’a palulukanit atsawl frato mì sìrey, "I saw the biggest thanator I had ever seen (lit., the biggest thanator in [my] life)."

Tìrusey is the gerund form, corresponding to "living" as a subject or object: "Living here is pleasant. I like living here."

Note that the tì__us__ form is a general way to form gerunds, and it's entirely productive--that is, you can apply it freely to any verb and you'll get the corresponding gerund. That's in contrast to the tì__ form, the meaning of which is not always predictable. For example, tìrol means "song," not "singing." For the latter, you can use tìrusol, or for the abstract concept, tseo tìrusolä. That's why tì__ forms need to be listed in the lexicon, whereas tì__us__ forms don't.

DEATH
To die, as you know, is terkup. Tìterkup is death in the abstract sense: "Death is inevitable."

I thought I had used kxitx somewhere in the Avatar or video game dialog, but I checked and apparently I hadn't. In any event, I was thinking of kxitx as referring to the event of an individual's death: "His death was calm and peaceful."

By the way, "dead" is kerusey--i.e., not (or non-) living: "Hetuwongìl awngeyä swotut ska'a, fte kllkivulat keruseya tskxet."
[...]
Nga pamrel soli san sleykivu utralìl lì'fyayä leNa'vi pxaya ayvurit atxur sìk. Faylì'u alor oeru teya si nìtxan, ulte ke tswaya' oel sat kawkrr.
[/quote]

So... enjoy!

P.S. "[...]" Are things i've omitted because they're about where i'm going to school and such, not of interest to the community at large—don't worry, i wouldn't hold out on you ;)

Edit: I forgot to include one bit, because it was embedded in other things.  Karyu Pawl acknowledged the point about expecting another root to complement rey the same way that kxitx does terkup; he said he'll think about it.



msg=212196 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 01:54:54 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

tì__us__ =gerund!! Just as I had suspected!! Sweetness. Irayo seiyi oe ngar for this essential update dude!



msg=212235 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 04:42:12 | u=1225

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

neotrekkerz

Txantsan ma 'eylan!  Oel nolew ivomum [desc=gerunds]fì'ut[/desc] [desc=Yes, I know this isn't the correct usage, but we don't really have "for" in this sense.]sre[/desc] sì’i’avay krrä.



msg=212237 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 04:49:42 | u=430

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

TehMightyPirate

So, does this mean that any tì- word can be made into a gerund with the <us> infix? That's more or less what I'm taking out of this (that you can't make anything into a gerund but anything that's already tì-ified can be made into one).



msg=212244 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 05:56:52 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

Other way around.  Any verb can get the <us> infix becomes a gerund with tì.  Tìrusol - n. singing.  Tìtusìng - n. giving.  Tìrusikx - n. moving.

I've been assuming this for awhile, but it's good to get a confirmation.  (In fact, it's one question off the list from combining our efforts.)  We've actually had conflicting and/or unclear information from Frommer on this.



msg=212269 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 07:34:34 | u=631

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]First of all, thanks for sharing.

This is a mine field ;) Now translations are really going to be difficult. The gerund is not concistent in translation in all languages… I think that requires more examples and rules when to apply – it’s time for those interactive lessons :D



msg=212276 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 07:42:04 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

Being only English speaking I'm not sure I see the minefield.  In Na'vi, it seems to be clearly an abstract noun representing the doing of the action.

Presumably the passive gerund would also be possible with tì+awn.



msg=212315 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 10:57:47 | u=631

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg212276#msg212276 date=1274082124]
Being only English speaking I'm not sure I see the minefield.  In Na'vi, it seems to be clearly an abstract noun representing the doing of the action.

Presumably the passive gerund would also be possible with tì+awn.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]The minefield being that for example in German, Frommer’s example sentences »Living here is pleasant. I like living here.« can be either translated as »[desc=lit. »to live here is pleasant«]Hier zu leben ist angenehm[/desc]. [desc=lit.: »I like it to live here«]I mag es hier zu leben[/desc]« or »[desc=lit.: »living (together) is pleasant«]Das (Zusammen)Leben hier ist angenehm[/desc]. [desc=lit.: »I like the living/life here«]Ich mag das Leben hier[/desc].« which have (tì’efumì oeyä) different connotations to them. To complicate matters, ›our‹ gerund of »living« has the same form as »life«, namely »das Leben« (that’s why I wrote »Zusammenleben« above because there it is clear that it is meant as the gerund form… It’s not always the case but here it is.

Hm, can you give an example for the ›passive gerund‹?



msg=212319 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 11:41:50 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

I don't think that sentence in Na'vi would even use a gerund form.  Even if it does, I'm not even sure how "kelku si" would look in gerund form.  I think that's one for the list, participle (& gerund) form of auxiliary verbs.

Anyway, your English translation of those only uses a gerund for one case, then an infinitive for the other.  I don't know german to comment on that though.

Anyway, passive gerund....  In English it would be "being (gerund)"...  For example "Being eaten will ruin your day" or "I like being thanked".  In Na'vi, it would probably be something like *"Tìpawnom oeru prrte' lu."



msg=212326 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 11:56:28 | u=631

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg212319#msg212319 date=1274096510]
I don't think that sentence in Na'vi would even use a gerund form.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Hm, I understood Frommer’s examples as exactly that…

[quote=ta Karyu Pawl]
Tìrusey is the gerund form, corresponding to "living" as a subject or object: "Living here is pleasant. I like living here."[/quote]

[font=Garamond]The translation issue is exactly my point ;) I’m pretty sure that most Germans haven’t even heard of a gerund (except those learning Latin or English) because we use other ways to convey these meanings (infinitive construction being one of them)

passive gerund – I would never have named your example as a gerund, but thanks for the clarification :)



msg=212348 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 12:59:08 | u=1550

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Taras

Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmuke. Nìtxan tsranten fmawn oer ;)



msg=212368 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:20:51 | u=3552

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

tigermind

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=9484.msg212348#msg212348 date=1274101148]
Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmukan. Nìtxan tsranten fmawn oer ;)
[/quote]

Tsmuke lu oe ;)  Tìtusìng aylì'ut Karyu Pawlä lì'fyaolo'ur oeru teya si; fì'u oeru prrte' lu.



msg=212374 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:24:28 | u=132

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Taronyu

It's good to know that it's entirely productive. That's great news.



msg=212379 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:29:33 | u=1550

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Taras

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=9484.msg212368#msg212368 date=1274102451]
Tsmuke lu oe ;)  Tìtusìng aylì'ut Karyu Pawlä lì'fyaolo'ur oeru teya si; fì'u oeru prrte' lu.
[/quote]

Ngaytxoa [img]http://podobovo.lviv.ua/ah.gif[/img]



msg=212381 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:36:41 | u=3552

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

tigermind

HRH, tam, ma Kemaweyan.  Fì'u ke tsranten nìngay.  Oe tìkxey si tengfya pxim—fì'u lu lun a oe plltxe san tsmuk sìk frakrr ;)



msg=212394 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:48:22 | u=1550

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Taras

Slä oe tsamun tsive'a tsat ulte pamrel sivi nìeyawr ::)

Txeleri lu oer tìpawmo. Nìawnolomum pxiswawam:

tìrol = song
tìrusol = singing
särol = ? (ke tsun oe tslivam fìlì'ut)

ulte tengfya:

sänume = teaching
tìnusume = ?



msg=212449 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 14:42:05 | u=4594

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Äie Alaw

Kxawm oe tìkxey seri, slä:

Tìrol = song
Tìrusol = singing (process)
Särol = record (or maybe "singing" as abstract object)

Sänume = instruction, teaching (abstract meaning)
Tìnusume = teaching (process)



msg=212477 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 15:12:34 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

[quote author=Tsamsiyuan link=topic=9484.msg212449#msg212449 date=1274107325]
Kxawm oe tìkxey seri, slä:

Tìrol = song
Tìrusol = singing (process)
Särol = record (or maybe "singing" as abstract object)

Sänume = instruction, teaching (abstract meaning)
Tìnusume = teaching (process)
[/quote]

kehe. Sä- is the instrument of the verb so särol is the instrument of singing, possibly an alternative word for voice in the context of singing ability.

Likewise, tìnusume would be learning because, whilst sänume is teaching/instruction, nume is learn not teach.



msg=212574 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 17:02:41 | u=1550

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Taras

Sran, mllte nìwotx furia tìnusume = learning, irayo ;)



msg=212587 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 17:33:17 | u=73

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Prrton

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=9484.msg212235#msg212235 date=1274071332]
Txantsan ma 'eylan!  Oel nolew ivomum [desc=gerunds]fì'ut[/desc] [desc=Yes, I know this isn't the correct usage, but we don't really have "for" in this sense.]sre[/desc] sì’i’avay krrä.
[/quote]

We don't really need to have "for" in this sense to say this. This [desc=since/ago/for_____]"over time" paradigm[/desc] has been sent to K. Pawl as a function of LEP Group A or B (I don't remember which), but we know from «Yola krr, txana krr, ke tsranten.» That "a long time" is «txana krr» ("much time"); AND, that time phrases as adverbs can stand alone just about anywhere in a sentence or clause to show the temporal reference.

[desc=As the subject of «new» in a modal construct unmarked for the ergative. (I had this same issue on the MaSempul main page embedded in a graphic until this morning. ).]Oe[/desc][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Verbs#Modal_verbs]1[/url] [desc=going on over and over in the past]narmew[/desc] ivomum fì'u[desc=accusative is probably fine here to, but «concerning/about» seems a little less English-y to me.]teri[/desc] txana krr [desc=«nìhawng» or maybe even «nìwotx» would be good here to get the "forever" feeling across too, but «nang!» seems particularly idiomatically Na’vi and effective to me.]nang[/desc]![desc=Dang! I've been wanting to know about this *forever*!]*[/desc]

My apologies in advance for the unrequested nosing in on your sentiment, ma tsmuk. I'm very pleased to have it confirmed as PRODUCTIVE as well!  ;D



msg=212978 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 02:57:26 | u=1225

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

neotrekkerz

I don't mind at all, it helps everyone learn.  Until we get that paradigm from K. Pawl, yours is probably the best way of saying it. 

I do admit to being a little confused as to your use of oe even after looking at the link.  It still appears to me that when there's an accusative object with new the subject takes the ergative:  oel new futa (Taronyu) kivä[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/frommerian-email/]1[/url].  In fact, it seems to contradict the teylu example in the wikibook link you provided.

Perhaps the subject takes the ergative only when used in combination with futa? 



msg=212988 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 03:48:44 | u=1120

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

roger

In "oe new kivä", 'new' is an intransitive verb, as only (pro)nouns can be objects. In 'oel new futa po kivä', it is a transitive verb, "I want that".



msg=213007 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 04:50:28 | u=1225

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

neotrekkerz

But you can also have oel new futa kivä as well which means the same thing as oe new kivä, hence my futa idea.



msg=213043 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 07:16:01 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

new is ambitransitive, it only counts as transitive when the direct object (futa or another noun) is made explicit, otherwise it is instransitive, hence [desc=I want to go]oe new kivä[/desc] but [desc=I want a new bow]oel new mipa tskot[/desc] or [desc=I want to learn]oel new futa nivume[/desc].



msg=213218 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 14:02:53 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

when the object of new is a verb, you dont need l and futa.

____new v<iv>erb.
oe new kivä

just like

____tsun v<iv>erb. and all the rest of the modals are like this.
po tsun kivä.

but the second that the thing you want is a material object, it needs to be accusitive and subject gets erg:

___-l new ____-t
oel new ikranit.

same for kin:

____ kin v<iv>erb
oel kin kivä

but for objects:

___-l kin ___-t
oel kin ikranit.

but Im thinking that for that last one, I would use must instead of need. cuz "need to" is kind of an English thing to say? I need to verb is pretty much the same thing as I must verb....aaaaaaaanyway...



msg=213244 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 14:21:37 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

You can use futa though with new, it gets a special long modal form which the others don't.



msg=213253 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 14:30:52 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

you CAN, but who is gonna go and use l and futa when the object that you want is a verb, and you can drop l and futa and just say the verb with <iv>?

like who is gonna say

oel new futa kivä.

when you can say

oe new kivä.



msg=213297 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 15:35:31 | u=1620

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

dontbugme

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=9484.msg213253#msg213253 date=1274193052]
you CAN, but who is gonna go and use l and futa when the object that you want is a verb, and you can drop l and futa and just say the verb with <iv>?

like who is gonna say

oel new futa kivä.

when you can say

oe new kivä.
[/quote]

i think it would be useful if the subjects for the 2 verbs are different:

oel new futa nga kivä



msg=213313 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 15:52:07 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=9484.msg213253#msg213253 date=1274193052]
you CAN, but who is gonna go and use l and futa when the object that you want is a verb, and you can drop l and futa and just say the verb with <iv>?

like who is gonna say

oel new futa kivä.

when you can say

oe new kivä.
[/quote]

Who's going to say who is instead of who's or going to instead of gonna?

Also, as 'eylan na'viyä says, it's less ambiguous when different subjects are involved.



msg=213481 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 19:26:32 | u=1620

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

dontbugme

btw:
is it possible to use futa with all modal verbs or only with those that can be transitive in english?



msg=213491 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 19:36:52 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

As far as we know the only modals are tsun, new and zene and of those, only new can take the long form.



msg=213582 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 21:38:32 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

new is the only one that is transitive, futa with zene, tsun or zenke would be ungrammatical.



msg=213609 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 22:26:14 | u=1620

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

dontbugme

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg213582#msg213582 date=1274218712]
new is the only one that is transitive, futa with zene, tsun or zenke would be ungrammatical.
[/quote]
i don't understand why these should be ungrammatical in general. In English or German they are, but when im thinking about what want + substantive means exactly i don't find a reason why i could not work with other modal verbs too.

afaik you can replace all transitive constructions with "want noun" by "want" + "to have noun" or + "to (let) noun happen"

these constructions can be also applied to the other modal verbs. thus leaving them out like usually done with "want" would lead to a transitive construction.



msg=213666 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 00:12:51 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

I say it is ungrammatical in Na'vi because Frommer says it is ungrammatical.

Consider if "oel tsun futa kivä" were allowed.  That would mean "oel tsun fì'ut a kivä" would be as well...  Then one could take that to mean "oel tsun fì'ut" on its own works.  Now if you can do fì'ut, why not "oel tsun fìikranit"?  But... what does that mean?

In some languages the modals can be used in that maner, but I would argue that is idiomatic, or a different meaning of the words in that context.  In Na'vi, it is ungrammatical.



msg=213669 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 00:16:16 | u=1120

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

roger

fmi "try" is also a modal, as in fmayi oe ’iveyg "I will try to answer".



msg=213691 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 01:05:36 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

I like how this thread isnt even about tì__us__ gerunds anymore XD <epic derailage much haha>



msg=213714 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 02:16:27 | u=1225

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

neotrekkerz

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=9484.msg213043#msg213043 date=1274166961]
new is ambitransitive, it only counts as transitive when the direct object (futa or another noun) is made explicit, otherwise it is instransitive, hence [desc=I want to go]oe new kivä[/desc] but [desc=I want a new bow]oel new mipa tskot[/desc] or [desc=I want to learn]oel new futa nivume[/desc].[/quote]
But if this is the case, how can we have this [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]canonical sentence[/url]:  [desc=from Jan 20]Oe new yivom teylut[/desc]?

If it is as you describe above, shouldn't it be oel?



msg=213718 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 02:30:06 | u=430

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=9484.msg213714#msg213714 date=1274235387]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=9484.msg213043#msg213043 date=1274166961]
new is ambitransitive, it only counts as transitive when the direct object (futa or another noun) is made explicit, otherwise it is instransitive, hence [desc=I want to go]oe new kivä[/desc] but [desc=I want a new bow]oel new mipa tskot[/desc] or [desc=I want to learn]oel new futa nivume[/desc].[/quote]
But if this is the case, how can we have this [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]canonical sentence[/url]:  [desc=from Jan 20]Oe new yivom teylut[/desc]?

If it is as you describe above, shouldn't it be oel?
[/quote]
Because there are two clauses there: "I want" + "to eat teylu"

The full sentence would become: "Oe new fwa oel yivom teylut." If it was just "I want teylu" then you are correct, it would be "oel new teylut".



msg=213744 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 04:09:00 | u=21

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

wm.annis

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=9484.msg213718#msg213718 date=1274236206]The full sentence would become: "Oe new fwa oel yivom teylut." If it was just "I want teylu" then you are correct, it would be "oel new teylut".[/quote]

Oe new fwa (fì'u a) cannot be grammatical — you've given two subjects, oe and fì'u.  I assume you meant futa for fwa.

The subjunctive verb complement to a modal verb is not the same thing as a direct object, so oe new yivom teylut presents no transitivity problems, even if an alternate phrasing (oel new futa (oel) yivom...) does have a direct object phrase, thanks to the nominalization powers of fì'u a, in this case fì'ut a > futa.



msg=213745 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 04:09:34 | u=3552

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

tigermind

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=9484.msg213718#msg213718 date=1274236206]
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=9484.msg213714#msg213714 date=1274235387]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=9484.msg213043#msg213043 date=1274166961]
new is ambitransitive, it only counts as transitive when the direct object (futa or another noun) is made explicit, otherwise it is instransitive, hence [desc=I want to go]oe new kivä[/desc] but [desc=I want a new bow]oel new mipa tskot[/desc] or [desc=I want to learn]oel new futa nivume[/desc].[/quote]
But if this is the case, how can we have this [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]canonical sentence[/url]:  [desc=from Jan 20]Oe new yivom teylut[/desc]?

If it is as you describe above, shouldn't it be oel?
[/quote]
Because there are two clauses there: "I want" + "to eat teylu"

The full sentence would become: "Oe new fwa oel yivom teylut." If it was just "I want teylu" then you are correct, it would be "oel new teylut".
[/quote]

That's confusing to me.  Why would you have both "Oe new fwa oel yivom teylut" and "Oel new futa ngal yivom teylut"?



msg=213747 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 04:31:34 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

That would be because you posted 34 seconds too late :D



msg=213775 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 05:22:56 | u=430

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

TehMightyPirate

Ack, my bad. I've managed to confuse myself. You guys sort it out. :P



msg=213792 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 06:25:39 | u=1620

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

dontbugme

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg213666#msg213666 date=1274227971]
I say it is ungrammatical in Na'vi because Frommer says it is ungrammatical.

Consider if "oel tsun futa kivä" were allowed.  That would mean "oel tsun fì'ut a kivä" would be as well...  Then one could take that to mean "oel tsun fì'ut" on its own works.  Now if you can do fì'ut, why not "oel tsun fìikranit"?  But... what does that mean?
[/quote]

Ok it's clear then, when Frommer said that it works like that. I didn't know this.

But just for clarification:
"i can this ikran" analogously to "i want this ikran" would mean:
"i can have this ikran"              "i want (to) have this ikran"


[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg213666#msg213666 date=1274227971]
In some languages the modals can be used in that maner, but I would argue that is idiomatic, or a different meaning of the words in that context.  In Na'vi, it is ungrammatical.
[/quote]
In that case i would say that want is also idiomatic.

sorry for the continued derailig



msg=213799 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 06:43:47 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg213666#msg213666 date=1274227971]
I say it is ungrammatical in Na'vi because Frommer says it is ungrammatical.

Consider if "oel tsun futa kivä" were allowed.  That would mean "oel tsun fì'ut a kivä" would be as well...  Then one could take that to mean "oel tsun fì'ut" on its own works.  Now if you can do fì'ut, why not "oel tsun fìikranit"?  But... what does that mean?

In some languages the modals can be used in that maner, but I would argue that is idiomatic, or a different meaning of the words in that context.  In Na'vi, it is ungrammatical.
[/quote]

I agree with you, but, playing devil's advocate a bit here, 'eylan na'viyä might have a point if you used "fìkem a" instead of fì'ut, alternatively you could go for a (probably grammatical but very long winded):

[desc=I can make this-I-go-action]oe tsun fìkem a kivä sivi[/desc]



msg=213887 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 11:32:50 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

bottom line:

Oe new tivaron tawtutet.

I want to hunt skyperson.

not oel new tivaron tawtutet. BECAUSE:

(oel new fì'ut) + (oel taron tawtutet)--> Oel new fì'ut a oel taron tawtutet-->oel new futa tivaron tawtutet.

we KNOW that is grammatical. and so is this when you simplify it further (which is not requrired but is common:)

Oe new tivaron tawtutet.

cool?

--Spirit Blue



msg=213889 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 11:34:38 | u=1120

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

roger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg213666#msg213666 date=1274227971]
why not "oel tsun fìikranit"?  But... what does that mean?

In some languages the modals can be used in that maner, but I would argue that is idiomatic
[/quote]

In Japanese it's not idiomatic. It's approx. 'This horse is a possibility for me'. *How* it's a possibility is a matter for context. Could mean I can ride it, find it, kill it, whatever is the topic under discussion.



msg=213890 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 11:39:14 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

tsun is intransitive and cant have an object. one cannot "can" something. to say "I can the Ikran" makes NO sense...but to say "Is able to be to me Ikran" makes sense. that is basically saying I can have (a/the) ikran: tsun livu oeru Ikran.

you CAN however "WANT" something or "NEED" something.

the only object that "CAN" can have is another verb. still, you dont add suffixes and such to a verb and the subject...that makes NO sense either. so I can eat food is oe tsun yivom syuvet. I can sleep is oe tsun hivahaw.



msg=213909 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 12:41:22 | u=0

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tsamsiyu92

What is a gerund?



msg=213912 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 12:44:31 | u=1317

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

It's when a verb is used as a noun, like when adding '-ing' in English.



msg=213913 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 12:46:41 | u=1620

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

dontbugme

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=9484.msg213890#msg213890 date=1274269154]
tsun is intransitive and cant have an object. one cannot "can" something. to say "I can the Ikran" makes NO sense...but to say "Is able to be to me Ikran" makes sense. that is basically saying I can have (a/the) ikran: tsun livu oeru Ikran.

you CAN however "WANT" something or "NEED" something.

the only object that "CAN" can have is another verb. still, you dont add suffixes and such to a verb and the subject...that makes NO sense either. so I can eat food is oe tsun yivom syuvet. I can sleep is oe tsun hivahaw.
[/quote]
Edit: (*number) is for referring.i did this to hopefully AVOID confusion *g*

"want verb"(*1-1) and "want noun"(*1-2)   is 1 word(*1) with 2 meanings
"can verb"(*2-1)                                      is 1 word(*2-1) with 1 meaning
"can verb"(*3-1) and "can noun"(*3-2)       is 1 different hypothetical word(*3) with 2 meanings

you can express one with each other:

"want noun"(*1-2) = "want to have noun" or "want to (let) noun happen"
"want verb"(*1-1) = "want the action that"

the same would also works with can(*3):

"can noun"(*3-2) = "can (to) have noun" or "can (to) (let) noun happen"
"can verb"(*3-1) = "can the action that"

so:
"i (*2-1) ikran" doesn't make sense because it would be always interpreted as "i (*2-1) ikran" ( (*2) doesn't exist, so a question for (*2-2) doesn't even occur).
but:
"i (*3) ikran" does because it would be interpreted as "i (*3-2) ikran" what in this example would be "i can have an ikran"

that isn't intuitive in all the languages i know but its a logical conclusion, thus maybe relevant for other languages.

how useful or frequently used this construction is would be a different question.



msg=213963 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 14:05:16 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=9484.msg213890#msg213890 date=1274269154]
tsun is intransitive and cant have an object. one cannot "can" something. to say "I can the Ikran" makes NO sense...but to say "Is able to be to me Ikran" makes sense. that is basically saying I can have (a/the) ikran: tsun livu oeru Ikran.

you CAN however "WANT" something or "NEED" something.

the only object that "CAN" can have is another verb. still, you dont add suffixes and such to a verb and the subject...that makes NO sense either. so I can eat food is oe tsun yivom syuvet. I can sleep is oe tsun hivahaw.
[/quote]

I think Roger's point is that whilst can is the closest English approximation, it might not be representative of a real na'vi translation.



msg=213964 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 14:06:01 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

??????????????????????????????????

what is with all of the (*numbers) things???

to say "I can noun" makes no sense. "I can HAVE noun" makes sense. you actually do need to say "have." "I can let noun happen" is different entirely. that is like "I am able to allow the noun to __(verb)__"




msg=213973 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 14:18:12 | u=5139

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Hrrap

And how will you know if "I can food" is "I cook" or "I eat"? ??? ???



msg=213977 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 14:24:15 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Le'eylan link=topic=9484.msg213973#msg213973 date=1274278692]
And how will you know if "I can food" is "I cook" or "I eat"? ??? ???

[/quote]

yeah...or even I can have food, or I can see food, or I can give food, or any other thing that you can do related to food?



msg=214010 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 15:06:26 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=9484.msg213964#msg213964 date=1274277961]
??????????????????????????????????

what is with all of the (*numbers) things???

to say "I can noun" makes no sense. "I can HAVE noun" makes sense. you actually do need to say "have." "I can let noun happen" is different entirely. that is like "I am able to allow the noun to __(verb)__"


[/quote]

Because tsun isn't necessarily the same as can, it might just be very similar.

I'm not saying that oel tsun futa is grammatical, we know from Frommer that it isn't, I'm just saying that there need not be the panlingual rule forbidding it that you seem to imply.

Looking at it another way, it could be common practice to elide sivi in cases like this so oe tsun srung could be common parlence of a hypothetical native speaker, if such a thing were common practice, the grammar nazis of Pandora might look at this with their prescriptivist eyes and try to 'fix' the grammar and preach that the correct form is oel tsun srungit.

Again, I'm not saying that this would be correct in na'vi (certainly not in its current form) but it is certainly possible to see a language where it was grammatical even if it a result of first a loosening then restricting of the grammar.



msg=214022 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 15:15:40 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

Lets teach what we KNOW is correct so far. deal? this kind of stuff is for Frommer to decide.



msg=214035 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 15:25:17 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

I know, as I said, I agree with you that this wouldn't work in na'vi, you just seemed to be implying a panlingual rule that I dispute exists.



msg=214073 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 15:51:43 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

As I did NOT say, "For every language that has ever existed and currently exist now, the following can not be done as it doesnt make sense..." I did not mean that at all. I was trying to refer to English and Na'vi. Now that is cleared up, After all this war, I wanna say that I am thankful to know how to make a gerund with any verb....(but how does "noun si" turn into a gerund? I doubt "noun tìsusi".maybe the noun without si can refer to the gerund? as that would be the noun form of the verb...hmmm)<back to gerunds topic and not modals>



msg=214132 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 16:47:32 | u=1620

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

dontbugme

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=9484.msg214073#msg214073 date=1274284303]
As I did NOT say, "For every language that has ever existed and currently exist now, the following can not be done as it doesnt make sense..." I did not mean that at all. I was trying to refer to English and Na'vi. Now that is cleared up, After all this war, I wanna say that I am thankful to know how to make a gerund with any verb....(but how does "noun si" turn into a gerund? I doubt "noun tìsusi".maybe the noun without si can refer to the gerund? as that would be the noun form of the verb...hmmm)<back to gerunds topic and not modals>
[/quote]

gerund = noun without si  would be equal to    no gerund for "noun si". "noun tìsusi" would have different meanings the same way as "tìv<us>erb" and tìverb are different(in most situations).
maybe it could be tì-noun but this would be a bit odd for nouns that already start with tì.



msg=214351 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 21:37:40 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

to say "I like working" where work is a si verb...here is something that might prove my point we would have to end up saying "I like work" which is not exactly the same thing, but is similar enough to get sort of the same idea across.

the thing is in Na'vi, we say something a little closer (but not 100% the exact same thing as) "to do work" instead of "to work" meaning Oe tìkangkem si. not oe tìnkangkem. so to say doing work is good, WOULD it be "tìkangkem tìsusi sìltsan lu" I dont really think so. I would say that to get that idea across, you would have to end up saying "work is good" "tìkangkem lu sìltsan"  and similarly "helping is good." i think would end up being "srung lu sìltsan" instead of "srung tìsusi lu sìltsan" Im thinkin that this is how all the ___si verbs will become gerunds: not at all. just use the noun. speculation and opinion of course. :3



msg=214364 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 21:49:20 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

Maybe you can solve it with attributive clauses so "I like to work" could be: "oeru prrte' lu fwa oe tìkangkem seri" literally I like that I am working, possibly by dropping the <er> or using krr a instead of fwa you could get it closer to what you want to say.

As for helping is good, using srung seems very strange to me as "helping is good" implies that there is a benefit to he who helps whilst the na'vi you gave implies that aid is to be desired, that there is a benefit to the person being helped. Using relative clauses though, we could get: oe srung si a fì'u sìltsan lu (oer(u)) or literally this-I-help-thing is good (to me).



msg=214369 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 21:54:59 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

well yeah you can do the whole "subject verb a fì'u prrte' lu subject-dative" thing. that is a different thing tho. that is saying "this subject verbs thing is pleasurable to subject." like you said, "this I help thing is pleasurable to me." but I was being very general by trying to say that the act of assistance is good. a very broad statement that may apply to both the person helping and the person being helped.



msg=214521 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 06:01:43 | u=1225

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

neotrekkerz

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=9484.msg213744#msg213744 date=1274242140]
The subjunctive verb complement to a modal verb is not the same thing as a direct object, so oe new yivom teylut presents no transitivity problems, even if an alternate phrasing (oel new futa (oel) yivom...) does have a direct object phrase, thanks to the nominalization powers of fì'u a, in this case fì'ut a > futa.
[/quote]

So, what in that case is teylut, linguistically?  It seems to me we have a direct object either way, with or without the subjunctive verb complement.



msg=214527 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 06:49:03 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=9484.msg214521#msg214521 date=1274335303]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=9484.msg213744#msg213744 date=1274242140]
The subjunctive verb complement to a modal verb is not the same thing as a direct object, so oe new yivom teylut presents no transitivity problems, even if an alternate phrasing (oel new futa (oel) yivom...) does have a direct object phrase, thanks to the nominalization powers of fì'u a, in this case fì'ut a > futa.
[/quote]

So, what in that case is teylut, linguistically?  It seems to me we have a direct object either way, with or without the subjunctive verb complement.
[/quote]

Teylut is indeed accusative, but it isn't in the same clause as the oe, if you break it down into clauses you get: {oe new {[desc=elided because is obvious from context](oel)[/desc] yivom teylut}} so you can see that the teylut isn't in the same clause as the oe so doesn't force it to take an ergative case.

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=9484.msg214369#msg214369 date=1274306099]
well yeah you can do the whole "subject verb a fì'u prrte' lu subject-dative" thing. that is a different thing tho. that is saying "this subject verbs thing is pleasurable to subject." like you said, "this I help thing is pleasurable to me." but I was being very general by trying to say that the act of assistance is good. a very broad statement that may apply to both the person helping and the person being helped.
[/quote]

The thing is, helping is good is a different sentiment than assistance is good. If you want to express the first, the relative clause constuction is probably the closest we can do for now, if you want the latter, then dropping the si seems like a good bet.



msg=214734 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 16:21:07 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

That makes sense.



msg=214947 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 20:01:57 | u=4754

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=9484.msg214527#msg214527 date=1274338143]


Teylut is indeed accusative, but it isn't in the same clause as the oe, if you break it down into clauses you get: {oe new {[desc=elided because is obvious from context](oel)[/desc] yivom teylut}} so you can see that the teylut isn't in the same clause as the oe so doesn't force it to take an ergative case.
[/quote]

I am not sure why it is obvious that there is an a 'contextual oel' before the yivom in that sentence. It is also not clear to me why a simple sentence like this would be be two clauses. The sentence as translated is really direct: 'I want to eat beetle larva', rather than 'I want I to eat beetle larva'. Or are modal verbs like fwe/futs/furia in that they split sentences into clauses? And if modal verbs render their 'verb' as intransitive, why can't teylut be simply teylu? (I know there is some strangeness with new, in the sense it can be used transitively. Is this one of those cases?)

Is it possible that there is more than one acceptable way to write some of these sentences?



msg=214951 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 20:07:03 | u=195

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

esoanem

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=9484.msg214947#msg214947 date=1274385717]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=9484.msg214527#msg214527 date=1274338143]


Teylut is indeed accusative, but it isn't in the same clause as the oe, if you break it down into clauses you get: {oe new {[desc=elided because is obvious from context](oel)[/desc] yivom teylut}} so you can see that the teylut isn't in the same clause as the oe so doesn't force it to take an ergative case.
[/quote]

I am not sure why it is obvious that there is an a 'contextual oel' before the yivom in that sentence. It is also not clear to me why a simple sentence like this would be be two clauses. The sentence as translated is really direct: 'I want to eat beetle larva', rather than 'I want I to eat beetle larva'. Or are modal verbs like fwe/futs/furia in that they split sentences into clauses? And if modal verbs render their 'verb' as intransitive, why can't teylut be simply teylu? (I know there is some strangeness with new, in the sense it can be used transitively. Is this one of those cases?)

Is it possible that there is more than one acceptable way to write some of these sentences?
[/quote]

The oe being elided is identical to other cases of subject drop we have in na'vi where the subject is the same.

All modals do indeed create two clauses, the main clause which has the modal verb in it, and the subjunctive clause that has the other verb in it.

Teylu has to be accusative because otherwise you would be saying you want the brainworms to eat, they are the direct object of yom and so must be marked even if the subject is not specified, likewise, it would still be teylut(i) if it were tsun or zene instead of new.



msg=215105 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 00:00:07 | u=1975

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Ean Tirea

we in English say, "I want to eat food." which really is if you think about it, a combination of two ideas: "I want something" and "I eat food." so what happens is "I want this 'I eat food' thing." and THAT is how the Na'vi say it:

Oel new fì'ut.
I want this thing.

oel yom syuvet.
I eat food.

add them together:

Oel new fì'ut a Oel yivom syuvet.
I want this "I eat food" thing.

this gets shortened because of redundancy of "I":

Oel new futa yivom syuvet.
I want this "eat food thing" aka "I want to eat food."

this can even further be shortened because of common modal form(BUT IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE):
Oe new yivom syuvet.
I want to eat food.

<eyawr lu kefyak?>



msg=215226 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 04:45:01 | u=4754

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

So, are these sentences expressing the right ideas as shared here?

oe new tswivayon vay Iknimayat

oe zene tivìran ka klltxet  letskxe

oe set tsun futa i`enit sivar



msg=215261 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 07:36:41 | u=2788

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=9484.msg215226#msg215226 date=1274417101]
oe new tswivayon vay Iknimayat
[/quote]
No case with adpositions, and even if tswayon is transitive (which I doubt) its object would not be the place flown to, so Iknimaya.

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=9484.msg215226#msg215226 date=1274417101]
oe zene tivìran ka klltxet  letskxe
[/quote]
Again, no accusative, and "ground" is kllte (no ejective).

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=9484.msg215226#msg215226 date=1274417101]
oe set tsun futa i`enit sivar
[/quote]
New is the only modal that allows the "long form" (ergative + futa), so this should be oe set tsun i'enit sivar. That the accusative is required in this sentence, and disallowed in the previous two, is because here you have a transitive verb in the second clause. All modals we know of so far are intransitive, except for new which is ambitransitive and therefore offers two possibilities.

Frommer's statements on the matter and [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]here[/url] (Jan 20 x2) and [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Verb_Phrases_as_Objects]here[/url].



msg=215286 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 08:59:53 | u=0

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tsamsiyu92

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=9484.msg213890#msg213890 date=1274269154]
tsun is intransitive and cant have an object. one cannot "can" something. to say "I can the Ikran" makes NO sense...but to say "Is able to be to me Ikran" makes sense. that is basically saying I can have (a/the) ikran: tsun livu oeru Ikran.

you CAN however "WANT" something or "NEED" something.

the only object that "CAN" can have is another verb. still, you dont add suffixes and such to a verb and the subject...that makes NO sense either. so I can eat food is oe tsun yivom syuvet. I can sleep is oe tsun hivahaw.
[/quote]
I agree, but "can" sentences 100% of the time has another verb in it.

Oe tsun fìkranit mivakto.



msg=215289 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 09:08:16 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=9484.msg215261#msg215261 date=1274427401]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=9484.msg215226#msg215226 date=1274417101]
oe new tswivayon vay Iknimayat
[/quote]
No case with adpositions, and even if tswayon is transitive (which I doubt) its object would not be the place flown to, so Iknimaya.
[/quote]Also it would probably be "ne Iknimaya", but certainly not "vay" - that means "up to" in time, such as "vay set" up to now.



msg=215310 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 10:30:30 | u=631

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg215289#msg215289 date=1274432896]Also it would probably be "ne Iknimaya", but certainly not "vay" - that means "up to" in time, such as "vay set" up to now.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Actually, that’s not quite true…
From an excerpt at the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]canon page[/url] from Frommer, Feb 1


[quote=K. Pawl]    Vay (ADP-) means 'up to.' It can be used in several senses, not just temporal: "He counted up to 35" or "Follow the river up to the land of destruction" (a line from one of the video games).

    Note vaykrr (CONJ): until. [/quote]
[font=Garamond]Or has he changed that in the mean time? Could be that I’m missing something…



msg=215314 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 10:46:53 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

Ok I'd forgotten that one, I'll need to remember to keep in mind.

Though it seems like his examples all give it as a condition of termination, rather than a direction.  "Count, but stop when you reach 35", or "Follow the river, but stop when you reach the land of destruction".  On the other hand, "Fly around (aimlessly) until you reach Iknimaya"?  But I could just be splitting hairs.

Saying "Fly up to Iknimaya" seems like up is the direction, and to is a destination, rather than "up to" being one concept.  In other words, "Fly up, to Iknimaya" vs "Fly, up to Iknimaya".



msg=215391 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 13:53:35 | u=430

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg215314#msg215314 date=1274438813]
Ok I'd forgotten that one, I'll need to remember to keep in mind.

Though it seems like his examples all give it as a condition of termination, rather than a direction.  "Count, but stop when you reach 35", or "Follow the river, but stop when you reach the land of destruction".  On the other hand, "Fly around (aimlessly) until you reach Iknimaya"?  But I could just be splitting hairs.

Saying "Fly up to Iknimaya" seems like up is the direction, and to is a destination, rather than "up to" being one concept.  In other words, "Fly up, to Iknimaya" vs "Fly, up to Iknimaya".
[/quote]
Yeah, I'd agree with omängum that it seems like those examples use vay for measurements not direction. But then again, I see no reason it couldn't work for that. I'd say this is one instance where I'd use it if I had no other way to say something but I wouldn't assume it's correct yet.



msg=215580 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 20:07:43 | u=4754

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9484.msg215314#msg215314 date=1274438813]
Ok I'd forgotten that one, I'll need to remember to keep in mind.

Though it seems like his examples all give it as a condition of termination, rather than a direction.  "Count, but stop when you reach 35", or "Follow the river, but stop when you reach the land of destruction".  On the other hand, "Fly around (aimlessly) until you reach Iknimaya"?  But I could just be splitting hairs.

Saying "Fly up to Iknimaya" seems like up is the direction, and to is a destination, rather than "up to" being one concept.  In other words, "Fly up, to Iknimaya" vs "Fly, up to Iknimaya".
[/quote]

[v]vay is listed in the dictionary (v10) without any qualifications as what it can mean. So, I assumed it could be used for 'fly, up to Iknamaya'. And indeed, that usage agrees with Frommer's second use. USing it for a situation like 'count up to 35' hadn't occurred to me.

Somehow, I need to figure out a way to remember all these little rules, so 100 percent of my sentences won't be wrong :-[



msg=215583 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 20:15:49 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

A lot of words, unfortunately, just the definition is not enough to understand them.  "Up to" is one of those.

"It is up to me" - I am the one that needs to do it.
"Look up to him" - See him as a role model.
"Follow the road up to the freeway" - Follow the road until you reach the freeway.
"Count up to 10" - Count until you reach 10.
"Up to now" - Before now
"Run up to him" - Run towards him / approach him
"Fly up to the moon" - Fly towards the moon, in an upward direction

Those are all slightly different meanings.  The first two are, obviously, vastly different than the rest and not covered by "vay".  Of the others they can fall into two slightly different categories.  One is a direction to head in.  The other is a terminal point.  When its used as a direction it is also the terminal point, but when it is the terminal point it is not necessarily also the direction.

Your example is using it as a terminal point and a direction.  Frommers seem to be using it as just a terminal point.



msg=215590 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 20:24:52 | u=54

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

Tiger

Another argument against vay being usable like that...

That is giving "up" as a direction.  "Fly up, until you reach Iknimaya".  If you were at Iknimaya and heading to the ground you wouldn't say "Fly up to the ground", you would say "Fly down to the ground".  However, we have nothing that provides the opposite sense of "down to".

Perhaps you could, however, say...

oe new tswivayon nefä vay Iknimaya
vs.
oe new tswivayon nekll vay atxkxe



msg=215592 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 20:26:26 | u=430

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

TehMightyPirate

I've been kind of thinking that "vay" is almost used like "until" in many ways. "vay set" = "until now", etc.

So, "tswayon vay Iknimaya" would translate almost literally as "fly until Iknimaya". Which works great if you're giving directions ("take a left at the giant glowing willow tree then travel for 5.2 miles") but not so much for a direction.



msg=215803 | topic=9484 | board=99 | time=2010-05-22 05:30:08 | u=4754

Re: Life, Death, and gerunds

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=9484.msg215592#msg215592 date=1274473586]
I've been kind of thinking that "vay" is almost used like "until" in many ways. "vay set" = "until now", etc.

So, "tswayon vay Iknimaya" would translate almost literally as "fly until Iknimaya". Which works great if you're giving directions ("take a left at the giant glowing willow tree then travel for 5.2 miles") but not so much for a direction.
[/quote]

That is kind of like a famous quote 'Take a left at the moon and then straight on 'till morning'.
I suspect though that 'until' is not a very good adposition. :o

In following up on nefä,  I came up with this- oe new tswivayon nefä  ne Iknimaya I think this is better.



msg=212398 | topic=9490 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:51:23 | u=430

Kìyevame vs Kiyevame

TehMightyPirate

In a quick P.S. (Hì'ia 'upxare :)) I quickly asked heir Frommer if there was a preference between the two and got this in response:

[quote author=Frommer]Kìyevame is preferable, since the canonical infix is -ìyev-. But in fast speech the two forms sound pretty close to me.[/quote]

I found this quite interesting given Na'vi's love of allomorphs. Though, I suppose that this has always been the case, I imagine "oel ngati kameie" is the "normal" form of the phrase despite the fact that other forms are "correct".



msg=212402 | topic=9490 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:54:42 | u=1550

Re: Kìyevame vs Kiyevame

Taras

Irayo nìtxan. Oel kop fpalme' tengtìpawmit Karyur :D



msg=212998 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 04:21:43 | u=1120

non-color words

roger

I asked Paul if black, white, and dark were safe from his revamping of the color terminology, and he said they were pretty stable, so I think we can safely release them:

layon 'black' - stress on the -yon.
teyr 'white' [any connection with teylu, I wonder?]
vawm 'dark' (and of course tìvawm 'darkness')

Some of you have already seen these, so this is just to verify that they're kosher.



msg=213019 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 05:50:20 | u=631

Re: non-color words

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Finally, thanks for the varification :)



msg=213037 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 07:08:01 | u=4754

Re: non-color words

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote=Roger]
layon 'black' - stress on the -yon.
[/quote]

Is 'ay' not a diphthong in that word, in that the stress is on 'yon'? If is isn't a diphthong, is there a rule for this sort of 'behavior'?

Pronounced with 'ay' as a diphthong, layon is really close to the English word 'lion'  :)



msg=213040 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 07:13:49 | u=195

Re: non-color words

esoanem

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=9515.msg213037#msg213037 date=1274166481]
[quote=Roger]
layon 'black' - stress on the -yon.
[/quote]

Is 'ay' not a diphthong in that word, in that the stress is on 'yon'? If is isn't a diphthong, is there a rule for this sort of 'behavior'?

Pronounced with 'ay' as a diphthong, layon is really close to the English word 'lion'  :)
[/quote]

It doesn't have to be a diphthong, for example, mawey is ma.wey, I don't think there's a rule unfortunately.



msg=213041 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 07:14:36 | u=54

Re: non-color words

Tiger

Not a hard and fast rule, but for root words, it is very rare that they don't syllabify as CVCV where possible, and that includes splitting diphthongs.  There are a few exceptions but as I said it is rare.



msg=213075 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 08:32:46 | u=1120

Re: non-color words

roger

Yes, it's /la-YON/, not *lay-ON. The orthography is defective, using the same letters 'y' and 'w' for diphthongs and approximants. (And the one we're using is even more defective, using the same letters for /c/ as for /t.s/.)



msg=213104 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 10:20:02 | u=4375

Re: non-color words

Binkatong

Yay, darkness! Now my signature is accurate! *hugs* Irayo!



msg=213112 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 10:34:17 | u=985

Re: non-color words

Nyx

I've been waiting for dark/darkness for ages now. Irayo!



msg=213196 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 13:23:37 | u=0

Re: non-color words

Swoka Swizaw

Yes, finally verification of stuff I've been asking about incessantly. ;D Good.

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=9515.msg213037#msg213037 date=1274166481]
Is 'ay' not a diphthong in that word, in that the stress is on 'yon'? If is isn't a diphthong, is there a rule for this sort of 'behavior'?
[/quote]

Historically, if I'm not mistaken, [aj] is a more streamlined version of the vocalic combination of /a/ and the high vowel, /i/. Before diphthongs were vocalic clusters.



msg=213605 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 22:18:55 | u=3552

Re: non-color words

tigermind

[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Yayo link=topic=9515.msg213104#msg213104 date=1274178002]
Yay, darkness! Now my signature is accurate! *hugs* Irayo!
[/quote]

Uh, technically not.  Run is not "found" but "find."  Your signature says, "Even in darkness, every color can find."  Since Na'vi doesn't really do passive voice, i think what you want is

Keng mì sìvawm fkol tsun rivun fra'opinit.
"Even in darkness one can find every color."



msg=213610 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 22:27:37 | u=631

Re: non-color words

Plumps83

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=9515.msg213605#msg213605 date=1274221135]
Keng mì sìvawm fkol tsun rivun fra'opinit.
"Even in darkness one can find every color."[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Almost ;)
with modal verbs the subject doesn’t take the ergative.

… fko tsun rivun fra’opinit.



msg=213616 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 22:35:09 | u=3552

Re: non-color words

tigermind

Irayo, ma Plumps.  Fìkorenit tsweränga' oel nìlkeftang =\\



msg=213618 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 22:42:09 | u=631

Re: non-color words

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]kem soleiyi ;)

oel omum ’uti a ral si nga … tsakem len oeru nìteng



msg=215083 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 22:46:08 | u=132

Re: non-color words

Taronyu

This may be stupid: are these nouns or adjectives?



msg=215208 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 03:52:29 | u=430

Re: non-color words

TehMightyPirate

Naw, that's a good question. I have no idea myself.



msg=215224 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 04:26:06 | u=73

Re: non-color words

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=9515.msg215208#msg215208 date=1274413949]
Naw, that's a good question. I have no idea myself.
[/quote]

Or stative verbs... ? ? ?



msg=215297 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 09:36:12 | u=1120

Re: non-color words

roger

Sorry, all the color words are adjectives. I thought we had "tìrim" for 'yellow' as a noun somewhere, but I can't find it.



msg=215388 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 13:48:33 | u=430

Re: non-color words

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=9515.msg215224#msg215224 date=1274415966]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=9515.msg215208#msg215208 date=1274413949]
Naw, that's a good question. I have no idea myself.
[/quote]

Or stative verbs... ? ? ?
[/quote]
Getting off topic but I thought all Na'vi stative verbs were created using the tì- affix or are there ones that aren't?



msg=215447 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 15:50:49 | u=2788

Re: non-color words

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=9515.msg215388#msg215388 date=1274449713]
Getting off topic but I thought all Na'vi stative verbs were created using the tì- affix or are there ones that aren't?
[/quote]

-affixed verbs are not verbs at all, but nouns. A stative verb is a verb that rather than describing an action states something about the properties of one of its arguments. Klingon is full of this, having no true adjectives at all, and in Na'vi we have, for example, sim and lìm.



msg=215454 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 16:09:15 | u=430

Re: non-color words

TehMightyPirate

Ah, forgive me, got my linguistic terminology mixed up.



msg=215568 | topic=9515 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 19:56:13 | u=4754

Re: non-color words

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

At least this is all starting to be black and white now :D

Thanks for the lesson on stative verbs.



msg=213002 | topic=9516 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 04:29:45 | u=1120

near, distant, and irregular adverbs

roger

Asked about those odd 'near' and 'distant' adverbs that have been tagged as 'dubious' in Wikibooks for so long. This is what he said:

[quote author=Frommer]Stative verbs do take infixes. (Lu is the quintessential stative verb, and needless to say we have lolu, livu, etc.) So do verbs of location: tok allows tarmok, tolok, and so on.

So how do alìm "far away, at a distance" and asim "nearby, at close range" relate to the verbs lìm "be far" and sim "be near"? Well, the first thing to note is that alìm and asim are adverbs, not adjectives. I used alìm only once in the Avatar background dialog:

'Ì'awn alìm! "Stay back!"

(Whether or not you can hear this in the final cut I don't know.)

Sim and asim parallel lìm and alìm but don't appear in the dialog.

Note that since they're adverbs, alìm and asim do NOT have alternate forms *lìma and *sima.

Now how did these forms arise historically? Perhaps like this:

'Ì'awn nìfya'o a lìm > ? 'Ì'awn nìfya'o alìm > 'Ì'awn alìm

(I'm not sure about the intermediate step. Could be that it was reanalyzed nì+[fya'o a lìm] > nì+[fya'o alìm]

In any event, these a-adverbs shouldn't be considered the result of a productive process in the contemporary language. They're historical artifacts that have to be listed in the lexicon. The productive adverbial affix remains nì-.[/quote]



msg=213021 | topic=9516 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 05:55:58 | u=631

Re: near, distant, and irregular adverbs

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Interesting – thanks for sharing! :)

I wonder whether there will be equivalent forms for hight and depth with tìm and kxayl



msg=213250 | topic=9516 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 14:27:26 | u=3334

Re: near, distant, and irregular adverbs

Krrtspangyu

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=9516.msg213021#msg213021 date=1274162158]
[font=Garamond]Interesting – thanks for sharing! :)

I wonder whether there will be equivalent forms for hight and depth with tìm and kxayl

[/quote]

I don't think so, sim and lìm are verbs, tìm and kxayl are adjectives. They could not be used as lìm in "'Ì'awn nìfya'o a lìm > ? 'Ì'awn nìfya'o alìm > 'Ì'awn alìm". So I think the a-construction is hardly probable.



msg=213273 | topic=9516 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 14:56:29 | u=430

Re: near, distant, and irregular adverbs

TehMightyPirate

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.



msg=213600 | topic=9516 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 22:11:49 | u=3552

Re: near, distant, and irregular adverbs

tigermind

Cool.  Irayo, ma roger.



msg=213656 | topic=9516 | board=99 | time=2010-05-18 23:47:17 | u=1550

Re: near, distant, and irregular adverbs

Taras

Irayo, ma tsmukan. Slä lu oer tìpawm: tsun fko sivar melì'ut a san nìlìm sìk sì san nìsim sìk srak?



msg=213667 | topic=9516 | board=99 | time=2010-05-19 00:12:55 | u=1120

Re: near, distant, and irregular adverbs

roger

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=9516.msg213656#msg213656 date=1274226437]
Irayo, ma tsmukan. Slä lu oer tìpawm: tsun fko sivar melì'ut a san nìlìm sìk sì san nìsim sìk srak?
[/quote]

I don't know. I can only assume that it would be similar to other languages, for example if you said "goodly" or "gooder" instead of "well" or "better" in English. Or like some people say "funner", which sounds to me like it should go with "ain't never bin no funner", but of course I understand them.



msg=214985 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 20:35:54 | u=54

The dual sounds of "u"

Tiger

I will be reforming the list of questions from "Combining our efforts" as many of the questions still waiting answer have been answered through other channels, and will send the newly edited list off to Frommer this evening.  However I did get one little tidbit today, in response to the vowel chart I made from Frommer's spoken samples...

We have two pronunciations listed for the letter "u".  That being "u" and "ʊ", with no explanation why.  Well, I have an explanation why.

Open syllables always use a tense "u" pronunciation.  Closed syllables can be either tense "u" or lax "ʊ".  There is no rule for which to use in closed syllables.  So tsun, for example, can be either "tsun" or "tsʊn", but "lu" is always "lu", never "lʊ".



msg=215001 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 20:45:29 | u=430

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

TehMightyPirate

oooooo, that explains a lot of weirdness in certain words and how some of my "u's" never seemed correct when compared to some of Frommer's "u's". I do like that "u" can be flexible since, in your example, tsun or tsʊn are distinctly different but both sound good to my ear (I imagine this is, once again, a choice based on speaker preference srak?).

Anyway, fì'u lu txantsan ma oeyä 'eylan, this is a very good tidbit. I feel we're getting pretty close to having almost all the basic pronunciation rules for Na'vi.



msg=215035 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 21:20:03 | u=0

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Swoka Swizaw

I've thought about this. My theory is that [ʊ] was it's own established phoneme like /ì/ STILL is. It simply fused with /u/, as /ì/ might do one day with /i/.

More or less, we are looking at Na'vi linguistic evolution.



msg=215042 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 21:26:43 | u=54

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Tiger

Yes, "u" vs "ʊ" in closed syllables is speaker choice.

Interesting thought about fusing sounds.



msg=215045 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 21:30:52 | u=430

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

TehMightyPirate

I also agree, that's an interesting theory. I know that many bits of Na'vi arose from the actors speaking during filming (such as the vocative -ya) and I wonder if this is the same but I think you might be onto something by thinking that this was deliberate, it certainly seems that way.



msg=215049 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 21:35:39 | u=3648

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Anubis

I have no idea how to type that U or how you would pronounce it, can anyone give me some examples pweese?



msg=215055 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 21:40:27 | u=195

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

esoanem

[quote author=Kawnga Palulukana Tutan (KaPTan) link=topic=9618.msg215049#msg215049 date=1274391339]
I have no idea how to type that U or how you would pronounce it, can anyone give me some examples pweese?
[/quote]

I don't know the unicode or anything but it's a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-close_near-back_vowel]near-back near-close rounded vowel[/url] and is the oo in foot.



msg=215057 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 21:46:07 | u=54

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Tiger

It's the difference between "food" or "good".  You use the u from "food" in open syllables (Syllables that don't have a consonant at the end... Such as in slu, palulukan or meuaniaea) and either when it does have a consonant at the end of the syllable (Like tsun).



msg=215085 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-20 22:48:00 | u=132

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Taronyu

This is awesome!

Sad times that ʊ isn't used anywhere alone, though. Would have liked to go through and systematically destroy my dictionary IPA stuff, haha.



msg=215168 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 03:28:20 | u=3552

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

tigermind

So is ʊ like the "ö" in some languages (e.g. Turkish göz), or the "oe" in French (e.g. coeur)?  Is that the right sound?



msg=215174 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 03:31:58 | u=21

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

wm.annis

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=9618.msg215168#msg215168 date=1274412500]
So is ʊ like the "ö" in some languages (e.g. Turkish göz), or the "oe" in French (e.g. coeur)?  Is that the right sound?[/quote]

Nope.  It's like the "oo" in (American) English "look".  An IPA example [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-close_near-back_rounded_vowel]with sound file[/url].



msg=215249 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 07:04:53 | u=0

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Tsamsiyu92

So, how do the other u sound like? Is it like in german -ung endings?



msg=215288 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 09:02:43 | u=54

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Tiger

I don't know German, but wikipedia gives Fuß as a German example.  An American english example would be "food".  (That is the u that must be used with open syllables, and may be used with closed.)



msg=215298 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 09:38:55 | u=1120

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

roger

There was no quote from Paul, but I assume this is Frommerian?



msg=215311 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 10:34:43 | u=631

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9618.msg215288#msg215288 date=1274432563]
I don't know German, but wikipedia gives Fuß as a German example.  An American english example would be "food".  (That is the u that must be used with open syllables, and may be used with closed.)[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Could you shortly explain again or direct me to where I can find what an open and closed syllable is? I remember gloomy them being mentioned in my introduction to linguistic classes, but don’t know the specifics anymore…
Irayo



msg=215312 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 10:41:12 | u=54

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Tiger

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=9618.msg215057#msg215057 date=1274391967]
It's the difference between "food" or "good".  You use the u from "food" in open syllables (Syllables that don't have a consonant at the end... Such as in slu, palulukan or meuaniaea) and either when it does have a consonant at the end of the syllable (Like tsun).
[/quote]That's pretty much it.



msg=215365 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 12:46:51 | u=21

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=9618.msg215311#msg215311 date=1274438083]Could you shortly explain again or direct me to where I can find what an open and closed syllable is? [/quote]

See [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/pronunciation-phonetics/navi-linguistics-the-syllable/]this[/url].



msg=215407 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-05-21 14:20:30 | u=631

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

Plumps83

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=9618.msg215365#msg215365 date=1274446011]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=9618.msg215311#msg215311 date=1274438083]Could you shortly explain again or direct me to where I can find what an open and closed syllable is? [/quote]

See [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/pronunciation-phonetics/navi-linguistics-the-syllable/]this[/url].[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Thanks! It’s so easy, how could I have forgotten? :P



msg=256627 | topic=9618 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 04:59:58 | u=6582

Re: The dual sounds of "u"

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=9618.msg215035#msg215035 date=1274390403]
I've thought about this. My theory is that [ʊ] was it's own established phoneme like /ì/ STILL is. It simply fused with /u/, as /ì/ might do one day with /i/.
[/quote]

My theory was this: [desc=Scientifically transcribed with a tilde (~)]{ʊ}[/desc] is an allophone of /u/ in a medial position, and didn't quite separate like {ɪ} and {i} did.

...and one could even wonder how the {ŋ} phoneme evolved, along with others....

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=9618.msg215035#msg215035 date=1274390403]
More or less, we are looking at Na'vi linguistic evolution.
[/quote]

Srane.  I wonder what the [desc=Namely J.C. and P.F. and associates]AVATAR guys[/desc] might say about the phonological history of Na'vi ìlä Na'viyä aynari.



msg=215780 | topic=9658 | board=99 | time=2010-05-22 02:56:05 | u=54

Losing and registers.

Tiger

So I had a really quick question with Frommer about the meaning of "tatep".  It means more specifically than just the ambiguous "lose", "lose track or awareness of something".

But something caught my eye...  He gave the example of its use as "Tìkan tawnatep!" - target lost.

There's no typo there.  It's an unattributed passive participle.  So a follow up question later and I got a nice gem of a response.

[quote=Karyu Pawl]The explanation is that this is in a clipped, military register, just as the English translation is.[/quote]

Of course the correct Na'vi would be "Tìkan atawnatep" or "Tìkanit oel tolatep".  There are other markers of the military register as well, but the only hint I got on that was...

[quote=Karyu Pawl]the shortening of the genitive pronouns: oeyä --> oey [pron. wey], ngeyä --> ngey, etc.[/quote]

It's worth noting that Frommer created the military register for the video game.  Despite the big battle scene in Avatar, there was not really a huge amount of military commands.



msg=215793 | topic=9658 | board=99 | time=2010-05-22 04:43:07 | u=4754

Re: Losing and registers.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

What do you mean here by 'military register'?

Can Tatep be used for ordinary lost things, such as Oel tamatep oeyä tiskoti?



msg=215797 | topic=9658 | board=99 | time=2010-05-22 04:53:47 | u=54

Re: Losing and registers.

Tiger

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_%28sociolinguistics%29]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_%28sociolinguistics%29[/url]

For tatep, perhaps.  Frommer said it didn't mean "misplace" exactly, but lose track of can be synonymous in many uses, so I'm not 100% sure on that one.



msg=216440 | topic=9658 | board=99 | time=2010-05-23 06:15:58 | u=1120

Re: Losing and registers.

roger

Cool. I'd heard that there was a rough or course register, but this is the first time I've seen any examples.



msg=238067 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 00:24:35 | u=54

Just another few words...

Tiger

With the recent German article which mistakenly attributed my forum name to Frommer, Karyu Pawl had emailed me apologizing for the mixup and assuring me that it was not his words and that he was contacting the reporter about a correction.  In doing so, he'd done a clever play on words in Na'vi with "(p)oe" for me/her (Her being the reporter).  So I commented in response "[desc=I see what you did there]Oel tse'a kemit a tsatsenge nga soli[/desc]", as well as "[desc=Sometimes these things happen]krro tsayhem lolen[/desc]".

Both evoked a response which involved a new word.  (Or really, a new lexical combination of words.)

On the first, he described it as "[desc=N. expression, bit of language]Lì'fyavi[/desc] lesar nìtxan nang!"

On the second he offered up a correction to "Krro len ayhem a[desc=ADJ. such]nafì'u[/desc]"




msg=238070 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 01:00:18 | u=0

Re: Just another few words...

Swoka Swizaw

Cool. Finally, this part of the board has a pulse.

But Frommer's gotta get the lead out. The world's ending. Layona payìl kifkeyti nìyängekx.



msg=238073 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 01:14:09 | u=1550

Re: Just another few words...

Taras

Txantsan! Irayo, ma tsmukan ;)

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10308.msg238067#msg238067 date=1276647875]
On the first, he described it as "[desc=N. expression, bit of language]Lì'fyavi[/desc] lesar nìtxan nang!"
[/quote]

Ha tsunslu lì'u a san [desc=bit of word (root, affix)]lì'uvi[/desc] sìk srak? Fì'u lu oeyä säfpìl nì'aw...

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10308.msg238067#msg238067 date=1276647875]
On the second he offered up a correction to "Krro len ayhem a[desc=ADJ. such]nafì'u[/desc]"
[/quote]

Tsun fko tsive'a futa fìlì'ut ngolop fkol ta san na + fì'u sìk :D Ftuea sì txantsana fya'o, fpìl oe ::) Irayo karyur ;)



msg=238082 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 02:17:33 | u=54

Re: Just another few words...

Tiger

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10308.msg238073#msg238073 date=1276650849]
Ha tsunslu lì'u a san [desc=bit of word (root, affix)]lì'uvi[/desc] sìk srak? Fì'u lu oeyä säfpìl nì'aw...
[/quote]Oe fpolìl tengfya.



msg=238482 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 18:24:40 | u=985

Re: Just another few words...

Nyx

Thanks for sharing :) I'm a bit curious about that play on words he did, is the whole phrase something you can post perhaps?



msg=238497 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 18:36:25 | u=1120

Re: Just another few words...

roger

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=10308.msg238070#msg238070 date=1276650018]
But Frommer's gotta get the lead out. The world's ending. Layona payìl kifkeyti nìyängekx.
[/quote]

D'you think he's spending all his time on Martian?



msg=238500 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 18:37:00 | u=1120

Re: Just another few words...

roger

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=10308.msg238482#msg238482 date=1276712680]
Thanks for sharing :) I'm a bit curious about that play on words he did, is the whole phrase something you can post perhaps?
[/quote]

Seconded!

Also, could you ask him what the form of 'such' would be before a noun? With such a common word, I'm sure it's fixed: nafì'ua, or fì'una ?



msg=238599 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 20:13:26 | u=54

Re: Just another few words...

Tiger

The full phrase with the play on words was just "(p)oeru txoa livu"



msg=238606 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 20:20:07 | u=1550

Re: Just another few words...

Taras

[quote author=roger link=topic=10308.msg238500#msg238500 date=1276713420]
Also, could you ask him what the form of 'such' would be before a noun? With such a common word, I'm sure it's fixed: nafì'ua, or fì'una ?
[/quote]

Sìltsana tìpawm ;) Ulte tsunslu san afì'una sìk maw tstxolì'u srak?



msg=238716 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 22:12:16 | u=0

Re: Just another few words...

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=roger link=topic=10308.msg238497#msg238497 date=1276713385]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=10308.msg238070#msg238070 date=1276650018]
But Frommer's gotta get the lead out. The world's ending. Layona payìl kifkeyti nìyängekx.
[/quote]

D'you think he's spending all his time on Martian?
[/quote]

What is Martian?



msg=238718 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-16 22:13:55 | u=195

Re: Just another few words...

esoanem

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=10308.msg238716#msg238716 date=1276726336]
[quote author=roger link=topic=10308.msg238497#msg238497 date=1276713385]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=10308.msg238070#msg238070 date=1276650018]
But Frommer's gotta get the lead out. The world's ending. Layona payìl kifkeyti nìyängekx.
[/quote]

D'you think he's spending all his time on Martian?
[/quote]

What is Martian?
[/quote]

He's been asked to make a martian language for another film, hopefully it won't be anywhere near as successful and he'll still focus on na'vi



msg=238769 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-17 00:24:17 | u=54

Re: Just another few words...

Tiger

[quote author=roger link=topic=10308.msg238500#msg238500 date=1276713420]
[quote author=Nyx link=topic=10308.msg238482#msg238482 date=1276712680]
Thanks for sharing :) I'm a bit curious about that play on words he did, is the whole phrase something you can post perhaps?
[/quote]

Seconded!

Also, could you ask him what the form of 'such' would be before a noun? With such a common word, I'm sure it's fixed: nafì'ua, or fì'una ?

[/quote]It's the same before or after.

Nafì'ua ayhem
Ayhem anafì'u



msg=238771 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-17 00:32:15 | u=21

Re: Just another few words...

wm.annis

Because I am paranoid, do we have accenting confirmations on these (not that there aren't very defensible and obvious choices present)?



msg=238773 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-17 00:40:42 | u=3552

Re: Just another few words...

tigermind

Yay for new words!  Ooh, and a Martian language...  I dunno, i think i'll stay partial to lì'fya leNa'vi.  But maybe those who learn his Martian language can become our "smuk lelì'fya."

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10308.msg238067#msg238067 date=1276647875]
...On the second he offered up a correction to "Krro len ayhem a[desc=ADJ. such]nafì'u[/desc]"
[/quote]

Ma omängum fra'uti, is that "ayhem" correct? 



msg=238774 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-17 00:42:08 | u=54

Re: Just another few words...

Tiger

It is yes, why wouldn't it be?



msg=238834 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-17 05:23:57 | u=54

Re: Just another few words...

Tiger

It is confirmed, the stress is exactly what you would expect based on the roots.
LÌ'fyavi
nafì'U



msg=239076 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-17 13:34:03 | u=0

Re: Just another few words...

Tsamsiyu92

So we can tag -vi on nouns to get "bit of a <noun>"? Is it a new adoption?



msg=239081 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-17 13:39:06 | u=3552

Re: Just another few words...

tigermind

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10308.msg238774#msg238774 date=1276735328]
It is yes, why wouldn't it be?
[/quote]

i'm just not used to seeing the "long" plural when there's lenition, so i thought maybe that was still meant to be "tsayhem."  Tì'eyngìri ngaru irayo seiyi oe.



msg=239084 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-17 13:43:54 | u=1550

Re: Just another few words...

Taras

[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=10308.msg239076#msg239076 date=1276781643]
So we can tag -vi on nouns to get "bit of a <noun>"? Is it a new adoption?
[/quote]

Karyu Pawl poltxe:

[quote=K. Pawl]-vi is a formative along the lines of what Kirk and Britton have suggested. It’s related to “child” (cf. ’eveng, ’evi; also cf. Malay/Indonesian “anak”) and is used loosely for the spawn of s.t. bigger. So sparks are the children of the fire. (Cf. also Na’vi!)[/quote]



msg=239898 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-17 21:48:11 | u=0

Re: Just another few words...

Tsamsiyu92

^Thank you.



msg=240114 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 06:23:45 | u=73

Re: Just another few words...

Prrton

[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=10308.msg239898#msg239898 date=1276811291]
^Thank you.
[/quote]

But but but!!!

Like nì- and tì- the meanings don't necessarily 'automagically' mean to OTHERS what they mean to you. They have to be agreed upon and go into the dictionary.

«Vur-vi» does not mean "paragraph" or "chapter". It means "synopsis". A synopsis is not a division or simple piece of a story. It is the essence of the story condensed into a smaller, more concise version of the whole.

Meanings out of -vi are probably a bit more predictable than those out of sä-, but perhaps LESS predictable than things in tì-.

aySaryu beware!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



msg=240136 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 07:22:09 | u=195

Re: Just another few words...

esoanem

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10308.msg240114#msg240114 date=1276842225]
aySaryu beware!
[/quote]

ayharyu?



msg=240139 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 07:33:18 | u=54

Re: Just another few words...

Tiger

Kehe, aysaryu lì'uviä san -vi

Like, for example, I just did there.  Is lì'uvi syllable?  Affix?  Letter?  Could really be any of those three, though I find letter unlikely.



msg=240170 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 08:17:27 | u=195

Re: Just another few words...

esoanem

Gah! Got so used to lenition that I forgot to look at sar itself, I just looked up tar. oe lolu skxawng.

I'd assume lì'uvi would be morpheme but it could, as you say be syllable (I think letter's pushing it) or, as it means "spawn of", it could even mean derived words.



msg=240178 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 08:22:58 | u=54

Re: Just another few words...

Tiger

And that's exactly why those words need to be lexicalized, so there's no debate about what they mean.

I don't see derived word as being a likely meaning for lì'uvi though.



msg=240192 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 08:47:01 | u=195

Re: Just another few words...

esoanem

Not a likely one no, all the examples we have so far are smaller, but I was deliberately taking the "spawn of" concept and applying it with reckless abandon as people might if we add it in as a suffix. Another, more plausible option would be a root or the unmarked form of a verb/noun etc.



msg=240750 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 19:10:15 | u=631

Re: Just another few words...

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]I’ve got a question concerning krro. Has Frommer commented on that?
I have a problem translating it… In German it’s different whether I say »(at) some time« or »sometimes«. If I translate it with the common form with »some« that we had in the last examples, I arrive at »anytime« in the sense of »at some time or other«.

Any ideas?



msg=240894 | topic=10308 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 21:45:27 | u=195

Re: Just another few words...

esoanem

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=10308.msg240750#msg240750 date=1276888215]
[font=Garamond]I’ve got a question concerning krro. Has Frommer commented on that?
I have a problem translating it… In German it’s different whether I say »(at) some time« or »sometimes«. If I translate it with the common form with »some« that we had in the last examples, I arrive at »anytime« in the sense of »at some time or other«.

Any ideas?

[/quote]

Depending on context, any of the above or even just "a time" or at least, that's what I'd assume.



msg=240892 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 21:44:36 | u=73

Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[font=Candara]Octal Number Marking

Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth. In Na’vi, think of it as the «o» in «v‹o›l» or the ‘o’ of “octal”. The mark precedes or follows the numeral depending on the flow of the phrase. Examples:

  « º30a trr » or « trr a30º » (“24 days”)
  « º12vea zekwä » or « zekwä a12ºve» (“the 10th finger”)
  « º13:36 srekamtrr » (“11:30 AM” (terran time))

Marking on 0~7 is optional when they are isolated.

  kew = zero / 0 (and the name of the number symbol)
  ’eyt = the name of the number symbol “8” (the value is irrelevant)
  nayn = the name of the number symbol “9” (the value is irrelevant)


[quote=K. Pawl]Tewti! Mesìpawm asìltsan nìtxan nang!

Never thought of that . . .

Let's see . . .

The only ones on Pandora who would ever have need of 8 and 9 would be, as you say, those who went to Grace's school and need to converse with the Sawtute--or refer to things Sawtute among themselves. And these Na'vi would only ever have been exposed to English, not other earth languages. So it seems reasonable that they'd borrow the words from English, especially since they fit easily into Na'vi phonology (and fortunately for us they're not otherwise assigned in the lexicon).

So:

8 = 'eyt
9 = nayn

  (To be used only with things like phone numbers.)

Furia fìlì'fyavit fkol ta 'Ìnglìsì molunge, sìlpey oe tsnì ayhapxìtu lì’fyaolo'ä awngeyä ke stìyevi.[/quote]

[font=Candara]Trrit Nerong Txonìl   (Night Follows Day)

[img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/trrit-nerong-txonil.png[/img]

The Pandoran day beings at or just before daybreak and follows an average cyclical pattern (to the best of our knowledge) which is punctuated by 4 regular pattern markers relating to natural light and the longer periods that fall between these milestones. The pattern markers are «trr’ong» (“daybreak/dawn”), «kxamtrr» (“mid-day/noon” - when the light is constant), «txon’ong» (“darkness falls/night unfolds”), and «kxamtxon» (“midnight”). As seasons or other celestial mechanics effect Pandora, the points at which these events occur may also change. They are relative, not absolute. Parallels to eclipses or sudden changes in ambient light in the night might also occur. These things are unknown to us at this time. This “typical” pattern and the full cycle of one morning through the day and night to the next morning is called «trrtxon». Please see the graphics to get a sense of duration and progression.

[img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/trrtxon.png[/img]

[font=Candara]There are three completely new terms that refer to segments of the day. They are RE.won, ha’NGIR, and KAYM. All are the creation of Karyu Pawl and their relationship to the day should be clear from the images. Because the Na’vi sleep during the night, they do not have such precise divisions for the darkness of night. There are two generic periods of txon before and after the midnight marker.

Krr ka Trrtxon lEywa’eveng

  sresrr'ong
  trr’ong
  trr'ongmaw
  rewon
  srekamtrr
  kxamtrr
  kxamtrrmaw
  ha’ngir
  kaym
  sreton’ong
  txon’ong
  txon’ongmaw
  txon
  srekamtxon
  kxamtxon
  kxamtxomaw
(this spelling is correct)
  txon

The «sre-» and «-maw» periods can be thought of as belonging to the specifically named periods with which they have contact. Therefore «srekamtrr» can be thought of conceptually as the final stage of «rewon». «Kxamtrrmaw» can be considered the beginning stage of «ha’ngir» and «sreton’ong» could be considered the end of «kaym» (“evening”), but kaym does not extend conceptually past «txon’ong» for the Na’vi. Once it is dark, «kaym» is over and «txon» has begun.


[quote=K. Pawl]The usual derivatives:

  rewonam 'yesterday morning' [stress shifts to final syllable]
  rewonay 'tomorrow morning' [stress shifts to final syllable]
  rewon 'this morning' (should be listed in the lexicon along with fìtrr and fìtxon)

  And the corresponding forms for kaym and ha’ngir.[/quote]

[font=Candara]Krr ka Trrtxon le’Rrta

The Na’vi do not keep time using devices, but the following “rough time maps” can provide an idea of when the Na’vi concepts of times of day might map to life on earth. Please note that 12:00 noon («º14:00 kxamtrr») and midnight (º14:00 or 0:00º kxamtxon) are locked to the earth clock in this model as a standard earth convention, but the time of trr’ong and txon’ong would change on earth based on one’s location on the planet, season, etc., so they do not appear as lexical items in this list. They cannot be consistently tied to times in a day divided into 24 sections because of their brevity.

The Na’vi also don’t have a fixed “noon” or “midnight” or a conceptual “meridian” (the ‘m’ of “AM” & “PM” on earth). Their words for “pre-noon” («srekamtrr») and “post-noon” («kxamtrrmaw») do NOT mean AM and PM as on earth. These are periods of time (one of our terran hours or less) when they feel that kxamtrr is about to happen (and rewon will end), or has just occurred (and ha’ngir is beginning). We would need to live on Pandora to get a sense of how they intuit these things. Unfortunately, we just have our imaginations...

11:00 AM on the earth clock would roughly map to º13:00 srekamtrr on earth, but 8:00 AM is not close enough to “mid-day” to qalify as srekamtrr. That would likely be the “morning” most places on Earth so º10:00 rewon.

There are no words for discrete time divisions yet; no “hour”, “minute”, “second” equivalents.

If you need to say 2:30 in the afternoon verbally (meaning the terran afternoon), say «mune:pxevofu ha’ngir» = º2:36. Just pause for the colon. K. Pawl supports these abbreviations in writing:

  º12:17 R
  KxT
  º2:36 H
  º4:55 K
  º10:36 Tx (T) <--- correction
  KxTx


Two different flavors of ’Rrtan time-keeping depending on the conventions of your region. Note that at different times of the year and different places on the planet the period of the day falls differently. These are just offered as examples. In the winter in Canada, kaym is likely well over by 5:00 PM. In Spain in summer kaym may not end until 10:00 PM. We’ll just have to learn how to adjust. It will teach us to think carefully about the geography of our own world.


[img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Krr-ka-trrtxon-rrtami.png[/img]


[font=Candara]If you find all of this “interesting” you now have a way to SAY it...

  eltur tìtxen si = to be interesting / intriguing

     (A) Tsa’u eltur tìtxen si. (“That’s interesting.”)
     (B) Tsavur oeyä eltur tìtxen soli.  (“That story intrigued me.”) OR:
     (C) Tsavur feyä ayeltur tìtxen soli.  (“They found that story interesting.”) OR:
     (D) Pxoeri tsavur eltur tìtxen soli. (“The three of us were interested in that story.”)

If figuring out how many brains are involved for the genitive model is an issue, topicalize the subject(s) in -ìri/-ri and use just one brain as in the example (D).


[font=Candara]The Na’vi (youth) have slang too...

  w•o•u = stative v. “to be amazing/fascinating” (slang)

     - If you’re a typical teenage boy:
        WOU Neytiri! (“Neytiri is the bomb/awesome!”)

     - If you’re a linguist:
        Oeru woeiu lì’fya leNa’vi. (“I’m just fascinated by the Na’vi language.”)

     -If you’re a botanist.:
        Mì na’rìng Tsyeykìl loreyuti ’olampi a tsaswaw WOU oer nìwotx!
        (“That instant when Jake touched the Helicoradiam Spirale in the forest I was totally amazed.”)

     - If you’re a dad just back from a long day at the zoo with your 7-y-o
       (who fell asleep in the car) reporting to mom:
        Por warmou frafneioang nìtut, slä nìpxi pxesyìräfì.
        (“He just couldn’t get over all the animals, but was especially taken with the 3 giraffe.” (nb: tsyìräfì, mesyìräfì, etc...)

The origin of «wou»:

When Jake was new to the Na’vi, he was also new to the Pandoran forest. He couldn’t speak Na'vi and was constantly walking around being continually amazed by Pandora. He said "Whoa!" a lot. While the Na'vi (especially the young people who where hanging on his every word and action) couldn’t know exactly what “Whoa!” was grammatically in English, it was very clear to them that he was “impressed/amazed”. They started using “whoa!” (pronounced in Na’vi as «wo.u» ) more or less as a stative verb. By the time Jake became Toruk Makto, the evolution of “whoa!” to «w•o•u» was etched in the stone of Na’vi youth culture. People much older than Neytiri and Jake may hear the younger folk using it, but they don’t know exactly what it means. Compare ’Rrtan grandparents understadning how a cellphone app can be “sick”. They basically don’t. At all. Enjoy.


[font=Candara]Analysis of a rather complex sentence:

  Tsawa ngal kawkrr sngelit ke munge wrrpane ulte nìtut zene
  ätxäle sirvängi ngar oe, steyki fìtxan fte keng ke tsivun tsawteri
  fpivìl luke fwa sngä'i tsngivawvìk.


  “Your never taking out the trash and my having to constantly ask
    you to do it makes me so angry that I can’t even think about it
    without starting to cry.”

«Fwa» with adpositions

Na’vi gerunds (e.g. «tìyusom, tìnusäk» “eating, drinking”) do not take direct objects. So to say “without beginning to cry” the reguar verb phrase «sgnä’i tsngivawvìk» takes «fwa» (or «a fì’u») and the regular adposition «luke» is added to the correct side of «fwa» or «a fì’u».

Not all adpositions make sense with «fwa». Be careful.

«Sngä’i» as a modal verb

In this particuar case, «sgnä’i» is used modally. That requires that «tsngawvìk» carry the invix «•iv•» to become «tsngivawvìk».

The contrast between «fwa/tsawa», «furia/tsaria», etc…

There is a full set of «tsa-»-based conjucntions that corresponds to the «fì-»-based patterns.


    [font=Candara]fwa  [font=Candara]futa  [font=Candara]furia
    [font=Candara]tsawa  [font=Candara]tsata  [font=Candara]tsaria
\



msg=240912 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 22:10:33 | u=2788

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
[font=Candara]This might keep some of you busy!  ;D
[/quote]

Nìngay nang! :o

Only skimmed it so far, but this stood out:

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
[font=Candara]Alo & Fralo

[font=Candara]   alo = time / turn / instance (c.f. Spanish «vez» compared to «tiempo» or French « fois » compared to « temps ».)

[quote=K. Pawl]It's like this definition of time given in my desk dictionary:

   "one of a number of repeated or recurring actions or instances. 'Cowards die many times before their deaths.' (Shakespeare, Julius Caesar).

   Examples:

      (1) Alo amrr poan polawm, slä fralo* poe poltxe san kehe.**

           "He asked five times, but each time she said, 'no.'"

                   *fralo 'each time, every time' [FRA.lo, obviously from fra+alo]
                   **If the quoted speech ends the utterance, the final sìk is optional.

       (2) Ayupxareri angim nìhawng lu alo oeyä!

            "Now it's my turn for a message that's too long!"[/quote]

[font=Candara]This is the same «lo» of ’awlo and melo (once, twice), but notice the stress shifts to «lo» in «aLO».
[/quote]

Are we to assume, then, that anything above "twice" is rendered with two words, instead of a suffix? I would at least have expected *pxelo...



msg=240921 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 22:32:50 | u=5790

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Muzer

Next and previous! So useful for Opera! Irayo, Pawl sì prrton! Why couldn't they have come up before? Lol.



msg=240923 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 22:33:45 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

faylì'u wou oeru (I hope that's right) and you speak truly when you say that this'll keep us busy.  :D



msg=240925 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 22:38:26 | u=985

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Nyx

Busy indeed... I was supposed to be asleep by now :P



msg=240930 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 22:43:14 | u=984

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]I quickly need a word for JAW. ;)



msg=240952 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:00:16 | u=6325

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Illicitpopsicle

When did this stuff get in??? **Bomb**



msg=240953 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:01:54 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth.
[/quote]

Why don't we actually use the official international standard for octal numbers which is prefixing them with a 0?



msg=240959 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:05:37 | u=5790

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Muzer

[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240953#msg240953 date=1276902114]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth.
[/quote]

Why don't we actually use the official international standard for octal numbers which is prefixing them with a 0?
[/quote]

Or Google's "hey I've got a great idea, because 0x exists for hex let's make 0o for octal and 0b for binary" way of doing it :P



msg=240961 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:06:58 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=10379.msg240959#msg240959 date=1276902337]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240953#msg240953 date=1276902114]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth.
[/quote]

Why don't we actually use the official international standard for octal numbers which is prefixing them with a 0?
[/quote]

Or Google's "hey I've got a great idea, because 0x exists for hex let's make 0o for octal and 0b for binary" way of doing it :P
[/quote]

Not 0o. Just 0. It actually is a standard used in every programming language on earth and most mathematic notations.



msg=240963 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:10:13 | u=631

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]This is a mouthful and needs some digesting ::)

Thanks so much for sharing, ma Prrton, and ending this time of waiting! :)



msg=240964 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:11:23 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=10379.msg240912#msg240912 date=1276899033]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
[font=Candara]This might keep some of you busy!   ;D
[/quote]

Nìngay nang! :o

Only skimmed it so far, but this stood out:

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
[font=Candara]Alo & Fralo

[font=Candara]   alo = time / turn / instance (c.f. Spanish «vez» compared to «tiempo» or French « fois » compared to « temps ».)

[quote=K. Pawl]It's like this definition of time given in my desk dictionary:

   "one of a number of repeated or recurring actions or instances. 'Cowards die many times before their deaths.' (Shakespeare, Julius Caesar).

   Examples:

      (1) Alo amrr poan polawm, slä fralo* poe poltxe san kehe.**

           "He asked five times, but each time she said, 'no.'"

                   *fralo 'each time, every time' [FRA.lo, obviously from fra+alo]
                   **If the quoted speech ends the utterance, the final sìk is optional.

       (2) Ayupxareri angim nìhawng lu alo oeyä!

            "Now it's my turn for a message that's too long!"[/quote]

[font=Candara]This is the same «lo» of ’awlo and melo (once, twice), but notice the stress shifts to «lo» in «aLO».
[/quote]

Are we to assume, then, that anything above "twice" is rendered with two words, instead of a suffix? I would at least have expected *pxelo...
[/quote]
'awlo & melo are the only two in that pattern of "number of times" that are attested, but this should NOT preclude pxelo (and possibly others). We'll have to ask how high up they go...



msg=240965 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:12:33 | u=5790

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Muzer

[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240961#msg240961 date=1276902418]
[quote author=Muzer link=topic=10379.msg240959#msg240959 date=1276902337]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240953#msg240953 date=1276902114]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth.
[/quote]

Why don't we actually use the official international standard for octal numbers which is prefixing them with a 0?
[/quote]

Or Google's "hey I've got a great idea, because 0x exists for hex let's make 0o for octal and 0b for binary" way of doing it :P
[/quote]

Not 0o. Just 0. It actually is a standard used in every programming language on earth and most mathematic notations.
[/quote]

No, but that's what I'm saying - Google defied all tradition and made it 0o for no apparent reason other than it looking more like 0x...


EG:

[url=http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=ni&q=010+in+decimal&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8]http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=ni&q=010+in+decimal&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8[/url]

[url=http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=ni&q=0o10+in+decimal&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8]http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=ni&q=0o10+in+decimal&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8[/url]



msg=240969 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:17:12 | u=1317

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

My brain just gushed out of my ears... so much information to process at once. I came here thinking "oh cool a new tidbit of info from frommer" but then, EXSPLOOOSEFHSHEDSF!



msg=240972 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:24:23 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=10379.msg240965#msg240965 date=1276902753]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240961#msg240961 date=1276902418]
[quote author=Muzer link=topic=10379.msg240959#msg240959 date=1276902337]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240953#msg240953 date=1276902114]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth.
[/quote]

Why don't we actually use the official international standard for octal numbers which is prefixing them with a 0?
[/quote]

Or Google's "hey I've got a great idea, because 0x exists for hex let's make 0o for octal and 0b for binary" way of doing it :P
[/quote]

Not 0o. Just 0. It actually is a standard used in every programming language on earth and most mathematic notations.
[/quote]

No, but that's what I'm saying - Google defied all tradition and made it 0o for no apparent reason other than it looking more like 0x...


EG:

[url=http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=ni&q=010+in+decimal&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8]http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=ni&q=010+in+decimal&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8[/url]

[url=http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=ni&q=0o10+in+decimal&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8]http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=ni&q=0o10+in+decimal&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8[/url]
[/quote]

Oh well... I guess anyway, we're stuck with a new way of writing it which will make teaching Na'vi even more complex as not all fonts have the ° symbol and not everyone knows how to make it...

On an other note: [desc=That's the sh*t]Tsa'u WOU![/desc] There's a lot of stuff to read now ;)



msg=240981 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:39:34 | u=1643

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Rain

Wou.... :o



msg=240982 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:39:42 | u=5790

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Muzer

Odd question, how does Paul Frommer usually start/end his e-mails nìNa'vi (if he does it in Na'vi, I'm assuming he does at least sometimes)? I've never seen one in its entirety, and there's an introduction e-mail I need to translate.



msg=240989 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-18 23:52:35 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

Tewti! Txantsan! Ke lu oer aylì'u, fìfmawn wou oeru ;) Irayo seiyi oe ngaru, ma Prrton, sì karyur awngeyä ::)

Ngian lu oer tìpawm:

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
[font=Candara]«Lam oer, _____» vs. «Lam oer fwa _____»

[font=Candara]K. Paul used «lam oer, _____________» to me in a note. I had never seen this without «fwa», so I asked him...

Is there anything wrong with «lam oer» taking «fwa» to link it to “whatever seems...”?


[quote=K. Pawl]No, that’s fine.

  Lam oer fwa po lu kanu nìtxan. OR Lam oer, po lu kanu nìtxan.

  My thinking here is that over time, lam oer could have evolved into a kind of adverbial, almost like “seemingly,” just as sìlpey oe can have the force of “hopefully.” [/quote]
[/quote]

Srake tsun fko pivlltxe tengfya:

fpìl oe, po lu kanu nìtxan (tup san fpìl oel futa po lu kanu nìtxan sìk)
tsunslu, po lu kanu nìtxan (tup san tsunslu fwa po lu kanu nìtxan sìk)?



msg=240991 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 00:00:27 | u=0

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Tsamsiyu92

Wou, nang!   :)

so...mny...words....at....once.....*mind explodes*



msg=240992 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 00:01:25 | u=430

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

TehMightyPirate

Tewti!



msg=240997 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 00:16:22 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10379.msg240989#msg240989 date=1276905155]
Tewti! Txantsan! Ke lu oer aylì'u, fìfmawn wou oeru ;) Irayo seiyi oe ngaru, ma Prrton, sì karyur awngeyä ::)

Ngian lu oer tìpawm:

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
[font=Candara]«Lam oer, _____» vs. «Lam oer fwa _____»

[font=Candara]K. Paul used «lam oer, _____________» to me in a note. I had never seen this without «fwa», so I asked him...

Is there anything wrong with «lam oer» taking «fwa» to link it to “whatever seems...”?


[quote=K. Pawl]No, that’s fine.

  Lam oer fwa po lu kanu nìtxan. OR Lam oer, po lu kanu nìtxan.

  My thinking here is that over time, lam oer could have evolved into a kind of adverbial, almost like “seemingly,” just as sìlpey oe can have the force of “hopefully.” [/quote]
[/quote]

Srake tsun fko pivlltxe tengfya:

fpìl oe, po lu kanu nìtxan (tup san fpìl oel futa po lu kanu nìtxan sìk)
tsunslu, po lu kanu nìtxan (tup san tsunslu fwa po lu kanu nìtxan sìk)?
[/quote]

Ngeyä mesìpawm lu txantsan slä zene Karyur piveng. Ke omum oe.

Kxawm lìyatsu lahea sìpawm nìteng, ha latsu sìltsan fwa fko pey nì'it fte tsivun sivutx frafnetìpawmit ulte 'awsiteng por fpive'.

Tsun tivam, srak?



msg=241001 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 00:22:09 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

Lam oer, tsun fko fìfya pivlltxe. Slä nìngay, zene awnga pivey Karyuä tì'eyngit fìtxeleri ;)

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240997#msg240997 date=1276906582]
Kxawm lìyatsu lahea sìpawm nìteng, ha latsu sìltsan fwa fko pey nì'it fte tsivun sivutx frafnetìpawmit ulte 'awsiteng por fpive'.
[/quote]

Fì'uri oe mllte ngahu.



msg=241002 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 00:26:26 | u=0

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Swoka Swizaw

Nawma Eywa!!

I have nothing to ever say again about Frommer's diligence and dedication pertaining to Na'vi. This has resparked my interest. So much to go over. Many srr it will take.



msg=241003 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 00:47:17 | u=3552

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

tigermind

Holy hell, ma Prrton :o  I go away for a little over a day, and come back to this.  Good grief, even if i ignore the time stuff for now, this is gonna take me a while to digest.

This is me thanking you, btw, in case you couldn't tell  ;)



msg=241006 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 01:22:02 | u=1975

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Ean Tirea

Ma Prrton, this is HUGE.



Thanks for posting this. I am freaking out. so exciting...I was right about many things here. I was thinking earlier about tsawa tsata tsaria and i was right about tsari mllte oe, and whatnot...

Holy crap.



msg=241044 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 04:29:08 | u=6325

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Illicitpopsicle

Man, Taronyu really has his work cut out for him, doesn't he?



msg=241087 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 07:38:32 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240972#msg240972 date=1276903463]
not everyone knows how to make it...
[/quote]

How do you?



msg=241137 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 10:02:04 | u=1120

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

roger

Hey Prrton,

I assume these are all Frommerian, but that was only implied for the sre-maw time-of-day words.



msg=241178 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 10:38:25 | u=0

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Tsamsiyu92

the "Numbers take nouns in the SINGULAR." isn't actually news. Haven't we been doing that for a long time now? ...or is this some kind of confirmation.



msg=241229 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 11:14:02 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=10379.msg241178#msg241178 date=1276943905]
the "Numbers take nouns in the SINGULAR." isn't actually news. Haven't we been doing that for a long time now? ...or is this some kind of confirmation.
[/quote]

I think it's just a confirmation.



msg=241252 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 11:51:16 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

Lu tìpawm kop.

[quote]Numbers take nouns in the SINGULAR.[/quote]

Slä txo oel sar lì'ut a san pxay sìk srak? Zene fko pivlltxe san pxaya srr sìk fu san pxaya trr sìk srak?



msg=241306 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 12:52:58 | u=2788

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10379.msg241252#msg241252 date=1276948276]
Slä txo oel sar lì'ut a san pxay sìk srak? Zene fko pivlltxe san pxaya srr sìk fu san pxaya trr sìk srak?
[/quote]

Pxaya srr sìk. Lu faysìkenong ta Pawl:

Lu awngar aytele apxay a teri sa'u pivlltxe

Oeru lu eylan apxay



msg=241309 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 12:54:57 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

Tam, irayo nìtxan. Ke amomun oel fìmesìkenongit ::)



msg=241529 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 17:49:13 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241087#msg241087 date=1276933112]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240972#msg240972 date=1276903463]
not everyone knows how to make it...
[/quote]

How do you?
[/quote]

I'm on a French CSA keyboard so I can just type alt_gr + ;



msg=241544 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 18:12:04 | u=5790

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Muzer

Compose, o, o on X-based systems (most Linux distributions for example) with. compose key enabled.

And it exists in Any Soft Keyboard for Android: °



msg=241545 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 18:13:03 | u=5951

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

kyle katarn

AHH!! im soo EXCITED!!!! now i can learn something about the periods of day!!! ah, the excitement! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D



msg=241568 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 18:36:20 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=10379.msg241544#msg241544 date=1276971124]
Compose, o, o on X-based systems (most Linux distributions for example) with. compose key enabled.
[/quote]

Extract this file and put into /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols and restart X :) Then for º press RightAlt + o. Also:

ì = RAlt + i
Ì = Shift + RAlt + i
ä = RAlt + a
Ä = Shift + RAlt + a


Sorry for offtop ::)



msg=241589 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 18:47:31 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg241529#msg241529 date=1276969753]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241087#msg241087 date=1276933112]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240972#msg240972 date=1276903463]
not everyone knows how to make it...
[/quote]

How do you?
[/quote]

I'm on a French CSA keyboard so I can just type alt_gr + ;
[/quote]

Doesn't work on my UK keyboard, other than vowels (which get an acute accent), the only keys that have characters made with alt gr are ` which goes to ¦ and 4 which goes to €.



msg=241630 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 19:15:21 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241589#msg241589 date=1276973251]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg241529#msg241529 date=1276969753]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241087#msg241087 date=1276933112]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240972#msg240972 date=1276903463]
not everyone knows how to make it...
[/quote]

How do you?
[/quote]

I'm on a French CSA keyboard so I can just type alt_gr + ;
[/quote]

Doesn't work on my UK keyboard, other than vowels (which get an acute accent), the only keys that have characters made with alt gr are ` which goes to ¦ and 4 which goes to €.
[/quote]

I don't know how to do it on a English UK configuration. The only thing I can suggest you is to try every single key match you can using the right alt, right control and shift. There is also a good chance that this key is simply not on your keyboard[desc=And now we get to the point why I think using ° instead of 0- is a bad idea...]...[/desc]



msg=241715 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 20:02:03 | u=631

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
K. Pawl supports these abbreviations in writing:

   º12:17 R
   KxT
   º2:36 H
   º4:55 K
   º10:36 T
   KxTx


[…]

[font=Candara]Using «mllte» in agreement with others about specific topics

[…]
   Oe hu sempul mllte tsara txampay lìm nìhawng fte trray fmivi sivop tengkrr a trr a’aw ftem.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]I was wondering why it is not Tx for txon since it is Kx(am)Tx(on) and Kx(am)T(rr)? Going from that you could misunderstand T as trr

Second quote is just a minor typo that I noticed. ;)



msg=241756 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 20:25:04 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

Srane.. Pam lu san Tx sìk, pelun fìtsenge lu san T sìk?  ::)



msg=241862 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 21:55:41 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg241630#msg241630 date=1276974921]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241589#msg241589 date=1276973251]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg241529#msg241529 date=1276969753]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241087#msg241087 date=1276933112]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240972#msg240972 date=1276903463]
not everyone knows how to make it...
[/quote]

How do you?
[/quote]

I'm on a French CSA keyboard so I can just type alt_gr + ;
[/quote]

Doesn't work on my UK keyboard, other than vowels (which get an acute accent), the only keys that have characters made with alt gr are ` which goes to ¦ and 4 which goes to €.
[/quote]

I don't know how to do it on a English UK configuration. The only thing I can suggest you is to try every single key match you can using the right alt, right control and shift. There is also a good chance that this key is simply not on your keyboard[desc=And now we get to the point why I think using ° instead of 0- is a bad idea...]...[/desc]
[/quote]

Shift only does capitals and control doesn't give extra characters. It's a real pain. I guess I'm going to have to try and find the alt code.



msg=241866 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 21:57:42 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241862#msg241862 date=1276984541]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg241630#msg241630 date=1276974921]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241589#msg241589 date=1276973251]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg241529#msg241529 date=1276969753]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241087#msg241087 date=1276933112]
[quote author=Meuia te Sätìng Tstew'itan link=topic=10379.msg240972#msg240972 date=1276903463]
not everyone knows how to make it...
[/quote]

How do you?
[/quote]

I'm on a French CSA keyboard so I can just type alt_gr + ;
[/quote]

Doesn't work on my UK keyboard, other than vowels (which get an acute accent), the only keys that have characters made with alt gr are ` which goes to ¦ and 4 which goes to €.
[/quote]

I don't know how to do it on a English UK configuration. The only thing I can suggest you is to try every single key match you can using the right alt, right control and shift. There is also a good chance that this key is simply not on your keyboard[desc=And now we get to the point why I think using ° instead of 0- is a bad idea...]...[/desc]
[/quote]

Shift only does capitals and control doesn't give extra characters. It's a real pain. I guess I'm going to have to try and find the alt code.
[/quote]

Or just do like me and use [desc=eg: 021]0-[/desc] instead like I always did in the past. It's clear, fast, efficient and universal. No confusion, no mess...



msg=241875 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 22:13:28 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

But that goes against the canon. You can do it if you like, but canonically it's no different from using tsahaylu (or for that matter shahaylu), neu, fkeu, kelutrel etc.

Ok, I've found the alt-code, it's 248, so now we have ì = 141, ä = 132 and ° = 248.



msg=241973 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-19 23:38:04 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg241875#msg241875 date=1276985608]
But that goes against the canon. You can do it if you like, but canonically it's no different from using tsahaylu (or for that matter shahaylu), neu, fkeu, kelutrel etc.

Ok, I've found the alt-code, it's 248, so now we have ì = 141, ä = 132 and ° = 248.
[/quote]

Canon does not necessarily means that it should be followed mindlessly. That's like saying that we can't use roman numbers instead of arabic ones in english if we want to just because it's not canon. I'm just thinking about the others before putting what Frommer says as god words... Right now, there is no valid reason to use this character to express numbers aside from the fact that Frommer said that it should be the way. My decision is not personally influenced by anything as I know how to to write those characters. My keyboard layout keep them close to me which is not the case for 90% of those who want to learn.

I don't want to sounds rash or anything but my opinion is that, right now, one of the reasons why there is such a small amount of people interested is the fact that you need to be a computer-savvy just to be able to use the language. You need to know about IRC, Skype, TeamSpeak, keyboard layouts and various other stuff. Most people don't even know that the two alt keys on their keyboard are different. If you force people to install software or need to explain them how to write unusual symbols, you're limiting the number of people that can learn it.

I think that Na'vi is a wonderful language and that this last update is a very good source of information but I also think that the way the writing system is taking is horrible and that part of it needs to be changed before it is too late.



msg=242024 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 00:24:13 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10379.msg241756#msg241756 date=1276979104]
Srane.. Pam lu san Tx sìk, pelun fìtsenge lu san T sìk?  ::)
[/quote]

M@ Kemaweyan, M@ Plumps! Irayo.

Tsar tìkxey larmängu. Set leykolatem fte slilvu eyawar na san Tx sìk.

Mengaru seiyi irayo nìmun.



msg=242032 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 00:34:54 | u=4754

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Wou! Wou! Wou! Irayo nìtxan Karyu Pawl sì Prrton! Oe lu {busy} fi`u txon.

The Pandoran time discussion was most interesting!

As far as marking numbers, the use of ° is a bit interesting. Its also OK for language shorthand because this is language we are discussing, and not computer science. But for identifying octal numbers, I was taught long ago that the prefix is 0o. This is a lot clearer than just 0, which can be confused for an empty place holder. I will have to find where ° is hiding on my Linux keyboard, or just add the code somewhere.

As far as numbered nouns beiung in the singular, this is common in other languages/cultures. For instance, if I was out on a game drive in East Africa, I would tell someone 'Today, we saw 8 lion, 4 giraffe, 12 gazelle and a cheetah', not 'Today, we saw 8 lions, 4 giraffes, 12 gazelles and a cheetah'

Lots of good material here to learn, along with some sentence construction tips (to confuse me even more!)

I'm glad K.Pawl told the story of how Wou came to be. Otherwise, it sounded too much like a loanword. Now, we know it is in fact, a loanword. This is a word I will use a lot!



msg=242048 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 01:02:19 | u=1975

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Ean Tirea

OR

you can be like ME and despise ALL digital numbers...be a Na'vi and write out the numbers...think about it. they dont write. why would we need this? they would just say the number. i mean we dont say(*IN COMMON SPEECH) two-one to mean twenty-one. meaning, we dont say "21" we say"twenty-one."

Mevolaw, not 21. and by the way, this is NOT twenty one. this is just bloody confusing to people.(that have not looked at octal in their life aka people who are not in the computer field of occupation or schooling...)

thats why I type out the Na'vi number word. so much easier to understand imo.

also, if you are gonna do waht Meuia is saying I suggest o21 instead of 021 for mevolaw.

I see how the degree symbol is good...but as posted on this page, it is not the easiest thing to type. its ridiculous enough to get new people to type ä and ì. and not to mention that I also despise alt codes...A LOT.

just my half a cent on this. ;D



msg=242050 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 01:07:16 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

Well... I guess that's what I'm going to do now. At least, it have the good point of forcing you to learn the numbers ;)



msg=242059 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 01:25:50 | u=1975

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Ean Tirea

hahaha. ;D well, I might as well update my custom Tirea Na'vi Windows keyboard layout to have a degree symbol...just in case. that way, i dont have to worry about it. I like the idea of "ONE KEY, ONE CHARACTER" or in some cases on my custom kb, one key, two characters...

EDIT: I have made a windows custom keyboard layout and put a link to it in the kxwerty picture in my signature. if you download and install it,

it will look like this:

SHIFT:

~ ! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) _ +
Kx W E R T Y U I O P { } |
A S Tx F Ng H Ì K L : "
Z Ä Ts V Px N M < > ?

normal:

º 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =
kx w e r t y u i o p [ ] \\
a s tx f ng h ì k l ; '
z ä ts v px n m , . /

download, unzip, and install setup.exe. done. now you can type Na'vi fast. switch back to your normal layout with left ctrl+shift.

EDIT: now going international. The zip contains [desc=both UK and US English]EN[/desc], [desc=Deutsch]DE[/desc], and [desc=Polska]PL[/desc]



msg=242065 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 01:32:45 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=10379.msg242059#msg242059 date=1276997150]
normal:
º 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11 0 - =
[/quote]

I would keep 8 and 9 as they can be used to expressed phone numbers and such (that's why the Na'vi have 'eyt and nayn now too  ;) )



msg=242070 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 01:36:26 | u=1643

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Rain

Concerning all the fuss about the tiny 0, It's easily solved with the Superscript button directly above the  ::) face. MS Word has one too.



msg=242074 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 01:40:53 | u=1627

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Kawazoe

[quote author=Rain link=topic=10379.msg242070#msg242070 date=1276997786]
Concerning all the fuss about the tiny 0, It's easily solved with the Superscript button directly above the  ::) face. MS Word has one too.
[/quote]

That's like saying using í instead of ì which is wrong ;)



msg=242076 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 01:43:54 | u=1643

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Rain

It is? Uh-oh, I may have messed up. :o



msg=242077 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 01:45:45 | u=21

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

wm.annis

[quote author=Rain link=topic=10379.msg242076#msg242076 date=1276998234]It is? Uh-oh, I may have messed up. :o[/quote]

Non-English languages have long had to cope with oddities in ASCII.  This is nothing new to Na'vi.  I think superscript 0 is just fine for informal, forum work.  For formal documents, though, it behooves us to take more care with these little formalities.



msg=242221 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 07:49:51 | u=4754

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Looking at all the terms we have now to describe evening, I wonder if the following correlation is intentional or not.

There are actually three classifications for 'twilight', the time between sundown and when it is truly dark. Intentional or not, it looks like there is a corresponding term for all three:

Civil twilight-- when it is still light enough to work outside-- sreton`ong
Nautical twilight-- when there is still enough light to navigate by-- txon`ong
Astronomical twilight-- when stars begin to be visible, but its not quite dark-- txon`ongmaw

As an amateur astronomer, I will definitely use these!



msg=242354 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 14:17:22 | u=3552

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

tigermind

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=10379.msg242221#msg242221 date=1277020191]
Looking at all the terms we have now to describe evening, I wonder if the following correlation is intentional or not.

There are actually three classifications for 'twilight', the time between sundown and when it is truly dark. Intentional or not, it looks like there is a corresponding term for all three:

Civil twilight-- when it is still light enough to work outside-- sreton`ong
Nautical twilight-- when there is still enough light to navigate by-- txon`ong
Astronomical twilight-- when stars begin to be visible, but its not quite dark-- txon`ongmaw

As an amateur astronomer, I will definitely use these!
[/quote]

That's cool.  I wasn't familiar with those terms; i'll have to, well, familiarize myself with them =)



msg=242476 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 17:34:13 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=10379.msg242048#msg242048 date=1276995739]
OR

you can be like ME and despise ALL digital numbers...be a Na'vi and write out the numbers...think about it. they dont write. why would we need this? they would just say the number. i mean we dont say(*IN COMMON SPEECH) two-one to mean twenty-one. meaning, we dont say "21" we say"twenty-one."

Mevolaw, not 21. and by the way, this is NOT twenty one. this is just bloody confusing to people.(that have not looked at octal in their life aka people who are not in the computer field of occupation or schooling...)

thats why I type out the Na'vi number word. so much easier to understand imo.

also, if you are gonna do waht Meuia is saying I suggest o21 instead of 021 for mevolaw.

I see how the degree symbol is good...but as posted on this page, it is not the easiest thing to type. its ridiculous enough to get new people to type ä and ì. and not to mention that I also despise alt codes...A LOT.

just my half a cent on this. ;D
[/quote]

I completely agree that it is best practice to always say (and likely WRITE) the numbers out. If I did this myself, I wouldn't have to look them up all the time...  :P

Please do not think that it is ever REQUIRED to use numerals to notate the numbers.

This convention is only intended to give a visual cue that the numbers at hand (above 7) do not have the same/full value as decimal numbers. If you are promising (in writing) to Skype with someone at 13:00 and it is unmarked, is that 11:00 AM or 1:00 PM? It's pretty ambiguous.

Oel fpìl futa nìtrrtrr 0o, o, o, hu º (a lu san eyawr sìk) tsun tivam nì'eng[desc=equally/well-balanced]*[/desc] nìwotx.[desc=I think for day to day use any of these “0o, o, superscripted ‘o’” could be equally acceptable as º (which is the “correct” one).]*[/desc] Slä lam oer fwa san 017 sìk kop tsun lu oeyk a tuteo ke tslam nìlaw nìftue.[desc=But, it seems to me that “017” could still be confusing to folks.]*[/desc] Nìteng, nìNa'vi tsakrr a holpxay eyk ke lu teng na fwa holpxay nong.[desc=Also, in Na’vi it’s not the same when a number leads as it is when it follows.]*[/desc]

  º100vea tute
  /  tute a100ºve   ««« Menariri oeyä fìfya lu laro sì ftue fte nivìn frato.[desc=Out of them all, this way is the cleanest and easiest for my eyes to take in.]*[/desc]
  0o100vea tute
  /  tute a0o100ve   
  o100vea tute
  /  tute a100ove   
  0100vea tute
  /  tute a0100ve   


Tì'efumi oeyä, tsatìkan a tsranten frato zene livu fwa fko frakrr tsun tslivam nìlaw nìwotx ralit a tsat fko fmeri pivlltxe.[desc=In my opinion, the most important goal should be for it to be easy to understand the meaning that you're trying to convey.]*[/desc]



msg=242489 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 17:54:34 | u=1975

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg242476#msg242476 date=1277055253]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=10379.msg242048#msg242048 date=1276995739]
OR

you can be like ME and despise ALL digital numbers...be a Na'vi and write out the numbers...think about it. they dont write. why would we need this? they would just say the number. i mean we dont say(*IN COMMON SPEECH) two-one to mean twenty-one. meaning, we dont say "21" we say"twenty-one."

Mevolaw, not 21. and by the way, this is NOT twenty one. this is just bloody confusing to people.(that have not looked at octal in their life aka people who are not in the computer field of occupation or schooling...)

thats why I type out the Na'vi number word. so much easier to understand imo.

also, if you are gonna do waht Meuia is saying I suggest o21 instead of 021 for mevolaw.

I see how the degree symbol is good...but as posted on this page, it is not the easiest thing to type. its ridiculous enough to get new people to type ä and ì. and not to mention that I also despise alt codes...A LOT.

just my half a cent on this. ;D
[/quote]

I completely agree that it is best practice to always say (and likely WRITE) the numbers out. If I did this myself, I wouldn't have to look them up all the time...  :P

Please do not think that it is ever REQUIRED to use numerals to notate the numbers.

This convention is only intended to give a visual cue that the numbers at hand (above 7) do not have the same/full value as decimal numbers. If you are promising (in writing) to Skype with someone at 13:00 and it is unmarked, is that 11:00 AM or 1:00 PM? It's pretty ambiguous.

Oel fpìl futa nìtrrtrr 0o, o, o, hu º (a lu san eyawr sìk) tsun tivam nì'eng[desc=equally/well-balanced]*[/desc] nìwotx.[desc=I think for day to day use any of these “0o, o, superscripted ‘o’” could be equally acceptable as º (which is the “correct” one).]*[/desc] Slä lam oer fwa san 017 sìk kop tsun lu oeyk a tuteo ke tslam nìlaw nìftue.[desc=But, it seems to me that “017” could still be confusing to folks.]*[/desc] Nìteng, nìNa'vi tsakrr a holpxay eyk ke lu teng na fwa holpxay nong.[desc=Also, in Na’vi it’s not the same when a number leads as it is when it follows.]*[/desc]

  º100vea tute
  /  tute a100ºve   ««« Menariri oeyä fìfya lu laro sì ftue fte nivìn frato.[desc=Out of them all, this way is the cleanest and easiest for my eyes to take in.]*[/desc]
  0o100vea tute
  /  tute a0o100ve   
  o100vea tute
  /  tute a100ove   
  0100vea tute
  /  tute a0100ve   


Tì'efumi oeyä, tsatìkan a tsranten frato zene livu fwa fko frakrr tsun tslivam nìlaw nìwotx ralit a tsat fko fmeri pivlltxe.[desc=In my opinion, the most important goal should be for it to be easy to understand the meaning that you're trying to convey.]*[/desc]
[/quote]

Tsari ngahu mllte oe.



msg=242641 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 19:18:44 | u=1620

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

dontbugme

i think there is also a little difference in meaning between the canonical Notation for Na'vi : "°" and a general ocatal Notation "0" or "0o".

In  my opinion "100" is always "0o144" or "0144" but can be either "°144" or "°140" depending on how accurate/important the accuracy of "100" was. I think 0o.. and 0... are only the octal versions of the same same human-context-number whereas °... is only the shortened version of the spoken number. Imoh °144 should be only °144 when it is really used and spoken as zamtsìvosìng in its context.



msg=242674 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 19:36:05 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=10379.msg242641#msg242641 date=1277061524]
Imoh °144 should be only °144 when it is really used and spoken as zamtsìvosìng in its context.
[/quote]

That is precisely the purpose of º as originally posted in this topic... to get the reader to understand that º144 is the Na'vi octal number «zamtsìvosìng» and should be pronounced and said in one's head that way and that it only has a decimal value of "100".

You and your friends are planning a big Na'vi meet-up. You discuss in Na'vi over e-mail that you need « º144a tseng fte º144a txìm tuteyä a144º tsivun hiveyn » during the meeting. But, when you call the equipment rental agency and speak in "decimal" you order ONLY 100 chairs to be delivered in time for the meet-up.

  KEFYAK?  ;)

BTW, if you're on Mac, the « º » is ‘option-0’ on a US or US Extended keyboard layout. It's been that way for 20+ years.



msg=242977 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 22:42:40 | u=1620

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

dontbugme

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg242674#msg242674 date=1277062565]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=10379.msg242641#msg242641 date=1277061524]
Imoh °144 should be only °144 when it is really used and spoken as zamtsìvosìng in its context.
[/quote]

That is precisely the purpose of º as originally posted in this topic... to get the reader to understand that º144 is the Na'vi octal number «zamtsìvosìng» and should be pronounced and said in one's head that way and that it only has a decimal value of "100".

You and your friends are planning a big Na'vi meet-up. You discuss in Na'vi over e-mail that you need « º144a tseng fte º144a txìm tuteyä a144º tsivun hiveyn » during the meeting. But, when you call the equipment rental agency and speak in "decimal" you order ONLY 100 chairs to be delivered in time for the meet-up.

  KEFYAK?  ;)
[/quote]

Thats true but my point was that there is also a difference between the human OKTAL notation and the Na'vi notation(which is not only octal but also respects the context and intension of the number from the Na'vi side)
The most obvious point is that when speaking you tend to use even numbers but these are different between both systems:

English discussion:
if you are looking for a suitable campsite, i think you'd use 100 in discussions because it doesn't matter if it are some more or less/95 or 105 but when you are going to pay you pay for exactly 95 or 105 people.

Na'vi discussion:
txo fwew sìltsana: tseng a tsun fko hiveyn tuteyä a140°(=96) fko sivar °140(=96) tup °144(=100) fu °134(=92=) taluna tsat ke tsrivanten. Fko "pay" krr a fko sar °144 fu °134 "exactly"

When it is about exact amounts 
100 = 0144 = 0o144 = °144 ;                                                            °140 = 0o140 = 0140 = 96
one hundred = octal one four four = octal one four four = zamtsìvosìng;    zamtsìvol = octal one four zero = octal one four zero = ninety six
but when it is only about a rough estimation
100 = 0144 = 0o144 "=" °140 ;                                                  °140 = 0o140 = 0140 "=" 100
hundred =  octal one four four = octal one four four "=" zamtsìvol;    zamtsìvol = octal one four zero = octal one four zero "=" hundred

100/96, 0144/0140 and 0o144/0o140 are human notations for human things, °144/°140 is a human notation for a Na'vi thing.

The other problem beside translating even numbers is that in english/math there are constructions that are unpractical to speak an exist (almost)only in written form.

1*10^2 = 01,44 * 010^02 = 0o1,44 * 0o10^0o2 = ---/...°144...
one times ten to the power of two = (nobody wants to speak that) = (nobody wants to speak that) "=" fya'o a fko tsun pamrel sivi holpxay mì ftia sawtuteyä holpxayä. nìn fìtsenge. fìholpxay slu zamtsìvosìng.

I guess i now hit the limit of complexity for this topic ;)



msg=242990 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 22:56:27 | u=3051

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Goplat

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth.[/quote]

Ma Prrton, ngal serar a fìrelur (º) syaw fkol san U+00BA MASCULINE ORDINAL INDICATOR. Keteng lu rel (°) a syaw fkol san U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN. (Tsarel lam hì'ia nì'ul; tse'a merelit 'awsiteng: º°) Perel lu eyawr?



msg=243014 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-20 23:23:00 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=10379.msg242990#msg242990 date=1277074587]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth.[/quote]

Ma Prrton, ngal serar a fìrelur (º) syaw fkol san U+00BA MASCULINE ORDINAL INDICATOR. Keteng lu rel (°) a syaw fkol san U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN. (Tsarel lam hì'ia nì'ul; tse'a merelit 'awsiteng: º°) Perel lu eyawr?
[/quote]

'O'! Tewti! Eltur tìtxen soli. Fìtìketeng oeru ke larmu law kaw'it. Fkol nume 'uoti amip fratrr! Irayo!

Oel fpìl futa tsamefnel tsun tivam niteng nì'eng[desc=equally/well balanced]*[/desc]. Kxawm tsaw a lu hì'i nì'ul swey latsu... Slä oe ke lu pe'unyu. ;)



msg=243047 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-21 00:04:07 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

Ma Prrton, kxawm nga tsatsun tsive'a mì upxare ta Karyu ulte fìfya olomun eyawra relit ;) Txo ngal molunge tsat ta tsa'upxare, eyawr lu san º sìk (U+00BA), kefyak?



msg=243072 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-21 00:43:17 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10379.msg243047#msg243047 date=1277078647]
Ma Prrton, kxawm nga tsatsun tsive'a mì upxare ta Karyu ulte fìfya olomun eyawra relit ;) Txo ngal molunge tsat ta tsa'upxare, eyawr lu san º sìk (U+00BA), kefyak?
[/quote]

:D

Skxakep tsatìketeng por ke law latsu oeto! Ngian, tsun pivawm ftxey tí'efumì feyä tsranten fuke. Oel fpìl futa lolu oe tsa'awpo a nì'awve tsarelit fwolew sì rolun fa eltu lefngap fte por fpive'.

Zene fko pivey nì'it nìmun.

Irayo, ma tsmukan! Ngeyä kanua eltu oeru yawne leiu nìwotx!

M.'U.: Nìngay fìtìketeng ke lam oer fwa lu 'uo a fìtxan tsranten taluna fa menari letrrtrr ke tsun ayalo apxay nìftue pive'un futa perel lu fìfya tengkrr relpe lu tsafay... kefyak?

        [img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ayHolpxayleVol.png[/img]



msg=243097 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-21 02:25:15 | u=1975

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Ean Tirea

I like 0o, but not 0 so much. I like degree sign the most...I just edited my custom na'vi layout to include a degree sign for this exact reason. Just me, but I would rather see 0o144 than 0144... to me 0144 woudnt register as octal in my mind...something about 0o i like better. I believe that there is no question about the degree sign notation tho. the only prob about the deg sign is that it is not one of the face buttons on a standard keyboard, so making a custom layout, (personally because I like to push one button and get one character out, not push like five buttons just to get a measly degree sign out) is necessary. again, I uploaded my kb for you windows users out there who care to try it out.



msg=245749 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 15:51:17 | u=132

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taronyu

I am disappointed. I wish I weren't, but I am. I don't think that Frommer here gave as much thought as he could have to the Alpha Centauri system and how it would affect lighting. Also, he's been inconsistent with other people who've worked on the film. Here's a quote from Leri Greer at Weta:

[quote]I actually wrote about how it causes a particular sky coloration across the visible spectrum at moments of pure dusk. And the Na'vi, depending on what elevation they live at (sea level versus higher altitudes), perceive a distinct color in narrow band at the horizon at that moment. They identify themselves, and signify in their markings, with this color. Which helps other Na'vi quickly discern at a distance what/where they are from, or what they are likely to be like (fishermen, high plains, skyriders, etc.). That pure dusk "color," combined with their other predominant color markings lets you also know how they relate to Eywa as a "religion" versus Eywa as a physical reality. And during ceremonial gatherings you can "read" a Na'vi by how they mark themselves with dyes, muds, and paints. And the environment and day/night cycle is directly responsible for the development of this social expression behavior. Again, this was an internal idea to help us design things at Weta Workshop, it's hard to say how much filtered upward to the larger production.[/quote]

And here's a link to a wikipedia article, which I've reproduced here: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Centauri#View_from_a_hypothetical_planet]Link[/url]

[quote]An observer on the hypothetical planet would notice a change in orientation to VLBI reference points commensurate with the binary orbit periodicity plus or minus any local effects such as precession or nutation. Assuming this hypothetical planet had a low orbital inclination with respect to the mutual orbit of Alpha Centauri A and B, then the secondary star would start beside the primary at 'stellar' conjunction. Half the period later, at 'stellar' opposition, both stars would be opposite each other in the sky. Then, for about half the planetary year the appearance of the night sky would be a darker blue — similar to the sky during totality at any total solar eclipse. Humans could easily walk around and clearly see the surrounding terrain. Also reading a book would be quite possible without any artificial light.[84] After another half period in the stellar orbit, the stars would complete their orbital cycle and return to the next stellar conjunction, and the familiar Earth-like day and night cycle would return.[/quote]

And here's a quote from the ASG: "Complete darkness is rare on Pandora. THe large moon orbits a gas giant planet that in turn orbits a star with a stellar companion. Because of this unusual arrangment, most of Pandora's nights have some illumination; fully dark nights are few and far between." This, taken into account with the unknown rotation speed of the planet (which, I assume, Pandora is aligned to, as our moon is - but this isn't necessarily the case), would certainly result in different words for different times of nights that are relative to the kind of night that is or will occur. Polyphemus is stated as having a "fast rotation", which might mean that the days may not last long enough to have all of these distinctions for twilight.

I'm not stating I'm not excited by the other stuff. I just find this disappointing, is all.



msg=245770 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 16:12:27 | u=1643

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Rain

I guess that's to be expected when two or more sources don't cross-check with each other. As far as Lery Greer's comment goes, that's an awful lot of details to put in a movie, especially when the whole thing is like a big shot of overstimulation on LSD. In short, nobody but someone with a degree in cosmology would have noticed the sky colouration, just like nobody but someone with a PHd in Anthropology and Sociology would notice or try to put meaning to the color markings. This is, after all the average person we're talking about, and they barely understand why their own culture functions or how.

I'm saying you have a lot of extremely good points and I do have a working interest in Na'vi culture, Taronyu, but as far as getting all that information into the movie it would likely be a waste of time because nobody would notice it.

**I am not putting anybody down, I'm just being an English Lit major.



msg=245779 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 16:26:36 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Rain link=topic=10379.msg245770#msg245770 date=1277309547]
I'm saying you have a lot of extremely good points and I do have a working interest in Na'vi culture, Taronyu, but as far as getting all that information into the movie it would likely be a waste of time because nobody would notice it.
[/quote]

I don't know about Taronyu but, I agree with you about not being able to put it in the film, but it ought to be in the language, it seems weird to me for the Na'vi to only have word for the parts of their day/night/weird-stuff cycle that happens to be usable on earth.



msg=245810 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 16:48:28 | u=132

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taronyu

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg245779#msg245779 date=1277310396]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=10379.msg245770#msg245770 date=1277309547]
I'm saying you have a lot of extremely good points and I do have a working interest in Na'vi culture, Taronyu, but as far as getting all that information into the movie it would likely be a waste of time because nobody would notice it.
[/quote]

I don't know about Taronyu but, I agree with you about not being able to put it in the film, but it ought to be in the language, it seems weird to me for the Na'vi to only have word for the parts of their day/night/weird-stuff cycle that happens to be usable on earth.
[/quote]

I agree with this sentiment.



msg=245813 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 16:50:48 | u=0

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Tsamsiyu92

As for the example: Tsavur oeyä eltur tìtxen soli.

Considering the free word order, wouldn't it be kinda wierd to put a genetive pronoun between two nouns? or is it rule for noun after genitive?



msg=245819 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 16:55:57 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

I think the tsa- prefix would preclude it taking a genitive so in this case I think it would be ok, in general though I agree that it would be ambiguous.



msg=245846 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 17:19:37 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10379.msg245749#msg245749 date=1277308277]

I am disappointed. I wish I weren't, but I am. I don't think that Frommer here gave as much thought as he could have to the Alpha Centauri system and how it would affect lighting. Also, he's been inconsistent with other people who've worked on the film...

I'm not stating I'm not excited by the other stuff. I just find this disappointing, is all.

[/quote]

[quote=original posting]As seasons or other celestial mechanics effect Pandora, the points at which these events occur may also change. They are relative, not absolute. Parallels to eclipses or sudden changes in ambient light in the night might also occur. These things are unknown to us at this time.

[/quote]
Are you willing to wait for the next film to come out in how ever many years and pray that the word(s) is/are in the script, or Cameron to bless some scientist in optics publicly in the interim and that theoretical person in turn to make some kind of explicit confirmation regarding color theory on Pandora to find out if there is any Na'vi way to distinguish pinks and purples (which are so vibrant in the film)?

If you want to put that kind of burden on him as a specialist in linguistics you have a different social outlook on the world than I do.

If that kind of rigor is required for every term in the LEP, then good luck with the future of Na'vi.

However, I 100% support your right to be disappointed, and am very sorry that you are.

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg245779#msg245779 date=1277310396]

[quote author=Rain link=topic=10379.msg245770#msg245770 date=1277309547]
I'm saying you have a lot of extremely good points and I do have a working interest in Na'vi culture, Taronyu, but as far as getting all that information into the movie it would likely be a waste of time because nobody would notice it.
[/quote]

I don't know about Taronyu but, I agree with you about not being able to put it in the film, but it ought to be in the language, it seems weird to me for the Na'vi to only have word for the parts of their day/night/weird-stuff cycle that happens to be usable on earth.

[/quote]
I don't disagree with this at all, but the "weird-stuff cycle" was not in Avatar 2009 and the likelihood that all of the "theory" will ever make it into the franchise in the foreseeable future seems far-fetched to me.

I am the FIRST to agree that there is a tremendous amount of "convenience" in the vocabulary above, but it is derived to the extent possible based on things that are perceivable (extrapolate-able within reason) from the existing, viewable film.

K. Pawl was on the set a lot (and under NDA for years). In my book that gives him more experience and clout to be a filter for these things making sense in the bigger context than all of the other 3rd party writing and commentary that we might find to interpret for ourselves now after the NDAs have been partially lifted. Of course, theorize away. Without that none of this use of our time (even as a hobby) seems very interesting to me.

If the "weird-stuff cycle" becomes "reality" in the next (or some future) film then things can certainly change. And I'll be the first to vote that they do.

The script says that there is no "hair" on Pandora. Yet we have «nikre».

[img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/jamescameronsavatar/de/images/4/46/Prolemuris.jpg[/img]

It's observable (not only on the heads of the Na'vi) in the film.

Language is a combination of theory (abstraction), rules, and practical concerns.

AND, if this (specific) vocabulary (or other) offends, then DON'T USE IT and it won't survive or be relevant. Such is the nature of all language (of which we are currently aware).



msg=245871 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 17:50:58 | u=132

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taronyu

I saw that coming. But thank you for tolerating my disappointment. As an amateur astronomer and cosmologist, I just find this sort of thing so intensely interesting that I can't fully go along with the decision to apply terrestrial terms. But you're right - I won't use them, but I'll be in the minority - and that's alright. I hope the next few films illuminate more.

Maybe a few concessions: darker night, or a name for eclipses, would be cool. I'd probably settle for that.



msg=245879 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 17:57:29 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10379.msg245871#msg245871 date=1277315458]
I saw that coming. But thank you for tolerating my disappointment. As an amateur astronomer and cosmologist, I just find this sort of thing so intensely interesting that I can't fully go along with the decision to apply terrestrial terms. But you're right - I won't use them, but I'll be in the minority - and that's alright. I hope the next few films illuminate more.

Maybe a few concessions: darker night, or a name for eclipses, would be cool. I'd probably settle for that.
[/quote]

I think I see a bit of a pattern emerging here, I agree with this almost entirely, I'll probably still use them but will grumble to myself every time I do (blame the English-ness in me for not wanting to make a fuss and just to get on with it) although I think that a relatively large number of words for the "weird-stuff" would be good and could redeem the system.

And, similarly to Taronyu, I'm coming at this from the point of view of a will-be (3 years) physics student's point of view so this sort of thing annoys me.



msg=245892 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 18:08:21 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10379.msg245871#msg245871 date=1277315458]
I saw that coming. But thank you for tolerating my disappointment. As an amateur astronomer and cosmologist, I just find this sort of thing so intensely interesting that I can't fully go along with the decision to apply terrestrial terms. But you're right - I won't use them, but I'll be in the minority - and that's alright. I hope the next few films illuminate more.

Maybe a few concessions: darker night, or a name for eclipses, would be cool. I'd probably settle for that.
[/quote]

You are also as welcome as anyone else on the planet to work out the celestial mechanics and document the models of precisely what WOULD happen and send that along to him with the holes in the model(s) for where you believe new roots or compounded concepts would be appropriate. He's very respectful of any kind of scientific rigor and has a tremendous amount of respect for you (in linguistics and commitment to Na'vi). You could expand that to the astronomical/cosmological realm...

Now, if you end up spending 7 calendar days (and nights... on Earth) figuring out what all the light levels would be and when the seasons would change (and how that might be reconciled with Grace's "village life starts early" (or whatever the precise quote is (as translated into all the languages 'Rrtaka in which the film was shown)), and you get 3 new roots and 7 compounds, you'll have to to do the cost/benefit analysis for yourself.

Keep in mind that Grace is supposed to have been there for YEARS (whatever that is... ? ? ?) Welcome to our fiction (and its inevitable clash with our reality).

    ;)

'Ivong Na'vi



msg=245900 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 18:16:17 | u=132

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taronyu

What do you say, Tìkawnga? Want to hash out Pandora's nightscape on Skype? :D

I think this might be fun...



msg=245911 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 18:27:03 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10379.msg245900#msg245900 date=1277316977]
What do you say, Tìkawnga? Want to hash out Pandora's nightscape on Skype? :D

I think this might be fun...
[/quote]

I'd like to, but I think my physics is a bit behind where it'd need to be. That said, with a few assumptions it probably wouldn't need much physics at all. Hmm... I'll think about it.  ;)



msg=245922 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 18:39:21 | u=54

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Tiger

I suspect the reason that it is not more complex is that Frommer is a linguist.  He was brought onto Avatar to develop a language.  He can create linguistic elements, but beyond that (and even within that in some cases) he is not a source of Avatar canon.  So trying to design a complex system of the Pandora days and seasons is probably a bit beyond his scope, even if he wanted to sit down and try.  And if others had already thought of such thing, he may not know who it would be, or have access to them or said information.  Even if he did create something, it would not necessarily be canon.

The other way to look at it is the new words are poorly translated to English, using the closest earthly concept, while the Na'vi would understand the words and concepts diferently.



msg=245973 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 20:14:01 | u=4754

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I'll take a different tack on this. Like Taronyu and kemeoauniaea, and as an amateur astronomer myself, I am quite aware of the likliehood that Pandora probably has a very interesting day/night cycle. I haven't checked on the spacing of Alpha Centuari A and B, but I bet they are distant enough that each star has its own planetary system. Although it is possible, stable orbits are few and far between for something orbiting both stars of a binary system. The aforementioned arrangement (orbiting one star) would make for a lot of 'light nights', where the other star provides twilight-like illumination much of the night.

The real complication though is that Pandora ia a moon of a gas giant planet. Gas giants normally have fast rotational periods. Depending on whether Pandora is tidally locked to Polyphemus, this makes for a very interesting arrangements of short days and nights, that vary considerably in length. In reality, this would create a much different situation for days/nights for Pandora that we have here on earth. The filmmakers missed this by a mile. (I do think, however, that there are one or more orbital mechanics solutions that would give Pandora a more or less regular day/night pattern.)

That said, the purpose of the film was to tell a story and communicate a message. Although a lot of details were attended to, apparently JC felt that trying to have a realistic day/night cycle was probably 'stretching things too far'. Therefore, the days and night as observed in the film are much like ours.

So, even though a very irregular day/night cycle is more likely, I will take at face value that it is more regular and adopt these terms to my conversational use. Although I know we have all discussed (especially this group of people) the appropriateness of some of these concepts (color is another one  ;) ), I think K. Pawl, as well as most of us, would like to have Na`vi be something we can use in our daily lives, or among friends to describe things we experience on a daily basis (Thus we have days of our week as words, etc.) I don't think this limits Na`vi in any significant way, as words describing finer details of things can be added as we go along.

At least in this case, K. Pawl did leave significant flexibility to address varying day lengths, but without a rigid time schedule like we use. I also think that by now, the Na`vi would have worked out the day/night pattern (which would be regularly recurring, but some components could take 'months' or 'years' to repeat) to a point where the 'astronomer' in their midst ( perhaps the Tsahìk) would have a pretty good idea how long or short a particular day or night will be. I also suspect that although the Na`vi's day/night behavior is similar to ours, that they are much more active at night than we are.



msg=246189 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 23:04:39 | u=1120

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

roger

"Gas giants normally have fast rotational periods"

Am I missing something? A couple of people have said this now, yet it's utterly irrelevant for light-dark cycles. All it means is that the storm spots of Polyphemus will cross the disk quickly; it will have no effect on the length of the Pandoran day, nor on the phases of Polyphemus lighting up the night, which will depend instead on Pandora's orbital period. Tidal locking of Pandora has nothing to do with the length of the Polyphemian day.



msg=246239 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-23 23:52:35 | u=430

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

TehMightyPirate

I believe they're referring to the fact that some moons are theorized to be created by accretion during formation of the planet and if I remember correctly this usually means that they inherit the angular momentum of their forming planet. It's either that or the impact theory that causes the similar angular momentum. Also, an accreted moon with share the angular momentum of it's parent planet so the rotational speed of the gas giant will have an effect on the orbital period of the moon so this would affect the phases of Polyphemus.

In any case, I do see where you're going.



msg=246262 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 01:32:45 | u=1643

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Rain

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10379.msg245810#msg245810 date=1277311708]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg245779#msg245779 date=1277310396]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=10379.msg245770#msg245770 date=1277309547]
I'm saying you have a lot of extremely good points and I do have a working interest in Na'vi culture, Taronyu, but as far as getting all that information into the movie it would likely be a waste of time because nobody would notice it.
[/quote]

I don't know about Taronyu but, I agree with you about not being able to put it in the film, but it ought to be in the language, it seems weird to me for the Na'vi to only have word for the parts of their day/night/weird-stuff cycle that happens to be usable on earth.
[/quote]

I agree with this sentiment.
[/quote]

Oe mllte nìteng.



msg=246411 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 05:41:44 | u=1120

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

roger

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=10379.msg246239#msg246239 date=1277337155]
I believe they're referring to the fact that some moons are theorized to be created by accretion during formation of the planet and if I remember correctly this usually means that they inherit the angular momentum of their forming planet. It's either that or the impact theory that causes the similar angular momentum. Also, an accreted moon with share the angular momentum of it's parent planet so the rotational speed of the gas giant will have an effect on the orbital period of the moon so this would affect the phases of Polyphemus.

In any case, I do see where you're going.
[/quote]

The Pandoran day is going to be its orbital period, assuming it's tidally locked. That will depend only on the mass and distance of Polyphemus. Because of the primary's radiation belts, Pandora would probably need to be fairly distant in order for it to be habitable. Io has a 42-hr orbit, yet that was still too close to Jupiter for Galileo to survive for long. (Galileo had to stay away from Io most of the time, and even close approaches to Europa were risky.) In the movie, there were several other largish moons inside the Pandoran orbit, too. Cf. the Jovians, the Ganymedean day is a terran week, and the Callistonian is 2 weeks.



msg=246462 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 07:20:56 | u=631

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
[font=Candara]Alo & Fralo

[font=Candara]   alo = time / turn / instance (c.f. Spanish «vez» compared to «tiempo» or French « fois » compared to « temps ».)

[…]

[font=Candara]This is the same «lo» of ’awlo and melo (once, twice), but notice the stress shifts to «lo» in «aLO».[/quote]

[font=Garamond]When using it as »once, twice, threetimes …« is there another variant like »thrice«, kxawm *pxelo? or is it alo apxey from 3 onward?



msg=246759 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 14:52:24 | u=3552

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

tigermind

So, now that we have alo and its variants, i'm thinking we're all going to have to watch ourselves in how we use this versus krr—it seems to me, for example, that there are some subtle differences between fralo and frakrr, and i feel like at least for the English speakers (myself included) it's not always going to be easy to decide which to use.



msg=246761 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 14:54:35 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

I think the fralo/frakrr border would probably be along the lines of "at every opportunity" vs "all the time" mind you, you'd rarely say the first in natural English. Ah well...



msg=246767 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 15:08:24 | u=5790

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Muzer

I would say fralo is more "every time/every instance" than "at every opportunity", to be used in conjunction with a to make subordinate clauses, as opposed to frakrr, which would be "all the time" and not used with a. For instance, from my translation:

[desc=Show my homepage every time I start Opera]Wìntxu oeyä kelkuä pamrelit fralo a oel sngeykä'i Operati[/desc]

Or as per Frommer's example - when you've already referred to a set number of instances and you want to emphasise the fact that it's every one of those instances.



msg=246868 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 17:10:37 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

I was struggling to put what I meant (I meant that fralo ~ todas veces whilst frakrr ~ siempre) into English, your explanation is better Muzer.

That said, I think that frakrr can be used with a and would be distinct from fralo in that frakrr would tend to be used with imperfective subordinate clauses because a 'when' is a more spread out thing than a 'time' (vez) and so when they take relative clauses I think that would be reflected so:

[desc=show my homepage every time I open Opera]wìntxu oeyä kelkuä pamrelit fralo a oel sngeykä'i Operati[/desc]
[desc=show my homepage whenever I am in the process of opening Opera]wìntxu oeyä kelkuä pamrelit frakrr a oel sngeykerä'i Operati[/desc]

The distinction, as with all of the alo words, doesn't translate well, but I hope that shows roughly what I mean.



msg=246942 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 18:14:46 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg246868#msg246868 date=1277399437]
I was struggling to put what I meant (I meant that fralo ~ todas veces whilst frakrr ~ siempre) into English, your explanation is better Muzer.

That said, I think that frakrr can be used with a and would be distinct from fralo in that frakrr would tend to be used with imperfective subordinate clauses because a 'when' is a more spread out thing than a 'time' (vez) and so when they take relative clauses I think that would be reflected so:

[desc=show my homepage every time I open Opera]wìntxu oeyä kelkuä pamrelit fralo a oel sngeykä'i Operati[/desc]
[desc=show my homepage whenever I am in the process of opening Opera]wìntxu oeyä kelkuä pamrelit frakrr a oel sngeykerä'i Operati[/desc]

The distinction, as with all of the alo words, doesn't translate well, but I hope that shows roughly what I mean.
[/quote]

I just confirmed this with K. Pawl to be doubly sure before I posted this (and sorry, the confirmation is not via an e-mail that I can post):

fraloeach/every time (discrete instances)[es]: cada vez
frakrralways/at all times (generally/consistently predictable)[es]: todo el tiempo
tì'i'avay krrä  "forever" (poetic, lit: "until the end of time")  [es]: por eternidad



msg=246975 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 18:30:48 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=10379.msg240912#msg240912 date=1276899033]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
[font=Candara]This might keep some of you busy!   ;D
[/quote]

Nìngay nang! :o

Only skimmed it so far, but this stood out:

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg240892#msg240892 date=1276897476]
[font=Candara]Alo & Fralo

...
      (1) Alo amrr poan polawm, slä fralo poe poltxe san kehe.

           "He asked five times, but each time she said, 'no.'"

...

[font=Candara]This is the same «lo» of ’awlo and melo (once, twice), but notice the stress shifts to «lo» in «aLO».
[/quote]

Are we to assume, then, that anything above "twice" is rendered with two words, instead of a suffix? I would at least have expected *pxelo...
[/quote]

'awlo = once (one discrete time)
melo = twice (two discrete times)
pxelo = thrice (three discrete times)

alo atsìng (tsìnga alo) = 4 discrete times
alo amrr (mrra alo) = 5 discrete times
etc...

It is also possible to say «alo apxey» or «alo a'aw nì'aw!!», etc. in order to add extra stress to the importance of the number of times when «'awlo, melo, pxelo» might be typically expected.

Numbers above 3 (pxe-) do not combine with with «alo» thereby reducing the initial «a».

Sorry, I don't have a mail to quote, but may get one later with answers to the other questions above.



msg=247085 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 19:46:36 | u=3552

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

tigermind

Txantsan, irayo, ma Prrton.  This helps a lot.  So, it seems it would be fair to say alo is more discrete, whil krr is more continuous... sorta.



msg=247235 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 21:44:59 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg246942#msg246942 date=1277403286]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg246868#msg246868 date=1277399437]
I was struggling to put what I meant (I meant that fralo ~ todas veces whilst frakrr ~ siempre) into English, your explanation is better Muzer.

That said, I think that frakrr can be used with a and would be distinct from fralo in that frakrr would tend to be used with imperfective subordinate clauses because a 'when' is a more spread out thing than a 'time' (vez) and so when they take relative clauses I think that would be reflected so:

[desc=show my homepage every time I open Opera]wìntxu oeyä kelkuä pamrelit fralo a oel sngeykä'i Operati[/desc]
[desc=show my homepage whenever I am in the process of opening Opera]wìntxu oeyä kelkuä pamrelit frakrr a oel sngeykerä'i Operati[/desc]

The distinction, as with all of the alo words, doesn't translate well, but I hope that shows roughly what I mean.
[/quote]

I just confirmed this with K. Pawl to be doubly sure before I posted this (and sorry, the confirmation is not via an e-mail that I can post):

fraloeach/every time (discrete instances)[es]: cada vez
frakrralways/at all times (generally/consistently predictable)[es]: todo el tiempo
tì'i'avay krrä  "forever" (poetic, lit: "until the end of time")  [es]: por eternidad

[/quote]

Gah, Spanish fail on my part, forgot that cada would be better.

I take it then that both can be used with relative clauses then, a better example of what I meant would be:

[desc=I sing every time that I hunt]oe rol fralo a taron[/desc]
[desc=I sing all the time that I hunt]oe rol frakrr a taron[/desc] (although I'd expect <er> in one of those verbs).

Also, I take this as confirmation that fra- = each and every.



msg=247270 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 22:59:48 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg247235#msg247235 date=1277415899]
Also, I take this as confirmation that fra- = each and every.
[/quote]

Oel frakrr tsafya nì'aw tsat tslamam ;) Slä oel tse'a tìketengit mìkam san frakrr sìk sì san fralo sìk. Fpìl oel futa san frakrr sìk tsun fko sivar tsakemteri a lu kea sìftang. Ngian tsunslu mì ayralo tenga ral tsamelì'u a fì'u lam oer :)

Nìngay fìlì'olo'mì fko zenke pivlltxe san oel fralo tsafya nì'aw tsat tslamam ::)



msg=247277 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-24 23:42:45 | u=1975

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Ean Tirea

its the differnence between every time and always...

He does this Every time she does that.

the above scenario always happens.



msg=247281 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 00:03:24 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=10379.msg247277#msg247277 date=1277422965]
its the differnence between every time and always...
[/quote]

Yeah :) I think,

Nga ätxäle sami a krr, oe fralo ngaru srung sami = Nga ätxäle sami a krr, oe frakrr ngaru srung sami.

But

Ngari oe frrakrr zerok - is correct, and Ngari oe frralo zerok - is incorrect.



msg=247310 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 02:03:13 | u=1975

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10379.msg247281#msg247281 date=1277424204]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=10379.msg247277#msg247277 date=1277422965]
its the differnence between every time and always...
[/quote]

Yeah :) I think,

Nga ätxäle sami a krr, oe fralo ngaru srung sami = Nga ätxäle sami a krr, oe frakrr ngaru srung sami.

But

Ngari oe frrakrr zerok - is correct, and Ngari oe frralo zerok - is incorrect.
[/quote]

Why?

I can see how, but if there was the right context, the second one could be correct, if the difference really IS always(all the time) vs. every time...

I remember you every time (i see this thing that reminds me of you)

I always remember you (because i have this thing that I look at that reminds me of you.)



msg=247386 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 07:10:39 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=10379.msg247277#msg247277 date=1277422965]
its the differnence between every time and always...

He does this Every time she does that.

the above scenario always happens.
[/quote]

I think there's a bit more to it than that. I think {clause A fralo {a clause B}} would be that clause A happens at some point whilst clause B happens every time that clause B happens; this is in contrast with {clause A frakrr {a clause B}} which would be that clause A happens all the time that clause B happens.

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10379.msg247281#msg247281 date=1277424204]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=10379.msg247277#msg247277 date=1277422965]
its the differnence between every time and always...
[/quote]

Yeah :) I think,

Nga ätxäle sami a krr, oe fralo ngaru srung sami = Nga ätxäle sami a krr, oe frakrr ngaru srung sami.

But

Ngari oe frrakrr zerok - is correct, and Ngari oe frralo zerok - is incorrect.
[/quote]

You're over simplifying this, I'll assume the Spanish has been confirmed by Frommer even if it hasn't originally come from him, in which case either of your final sentences would be correct (although I'd usually expect a relative clause on fralo but it could be implied by the discourse).

And for your first two sentences, they aren't the same, they have distinct meanings, the first would be that "I helped you every time you asked" (which I think is the original English sentence more or less) whilst the second is "at the time that you asked/requested I always helped you" telling the listener that in the past you always helped them, the past tense here implies you don't anymore and implies that there's been some disagreement, whereas the first sentence could be perfectly amicable.

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=10379.msg247277#msg247277 date=1277422965]
its the differnence between every time and always...

He does this Every time she does that.

the above scenario always happens.
[/quote]

Almost, it's more "every time" = fralo and "all the time" = frakrr (assuming the Spanish is accurate).



msg=247393 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 07:18:16 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg247386#msg247386 date=1277449839]

...I'll assume the Spanish has been confirmed by Frommer even if it hasn't originally come from him,...

[/quote]
Confirmed. Yes. Via French « fois/temps » and Spanish «vez/tiempo» as the root distinction.



msg=247399 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 07:24:37 | u=1225

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

neotrekkerz

Ma Prrton,

Thanks so much for the uber post.  Nice to digest some new info.  Regarding

[quote]Quote from: K. Pawl

Hivahaw nìmwey.

ta P.

(nìmwey ADV. 'calmly, peacefully' [nìm.WEY])

So, even though he doesn’t know Japanese, he’s created something along the lines of o-yasumi nasai, (“please rest well”) for “goodnight” (when it’s bedtime). [/quote]

I'm wondering if a better translation (even though it's idiomatic) for this would be "pleasant dreams" as we have txon lefpom for "goodnight."



msg=247441 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 08:50:20 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg247393#msg247393 date=1277450296]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg247386#msg247386 date=1277449839]

...I'll assume the Spanish has been confirmed by Frommer even if it hasn't originally come from him,...

[/quote]
Confirmed. Yes. Via French « fois/temps » and Spanish «vez/tiempo» as the root distinction.
[/quote]

tam, irayo. Does that mean my assumptions about frakrr a and fralo a are also correct or don't we know (or are they even completely wrong)?



msg=247830 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 17:59:58 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=10379.msg247399#msg247399 date=1277450677]
Ma Prrton,

Thanks so much for the uber post.  Nice to digest some new info.  Regarding

[quote]Quote from: K. Pawl

Hivahaw nìmwey.

ta P.

(nìmwey ADV. 'calmly, peacefully' [nìm.WEY])

So, even though he doesn’t know Japanese, he’s created something along the lines of o-yasumi nasai, (“please rest well”) for “goodnight” (when it’s bedtime). [/quote]

I'm wondering if a better translation (even though it's idiomatic) for this would be "pleasant dreams" as we have txon lefpom for "goodnight."
[/quote]

Lor nìwotx, (tì'efumì oeyä).



msg=247848 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 18:13:13 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg247441#msg247441 date=1277455820]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg247393#msg247393 date=1277450296]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg247386#msg247386 date=1277449839]

...I'll assume the Spanish has been confirmed by Frommer even if it hasn't originally come from him,...

[/quote]
Confirmed. Yes. Via French « fois/temps » and Spanish «vez/tiempo» as the root distinction.
[/quote]

tam, irayo. Does that mean my assumptions about frakrr a and fralo a are also correct or don't we know (or are they even completely wrong)?
[/quote]

If you're referring to the «frakrr» implying "continually/constantly" I doubt it. I think that would have to be «nìtut» or «nìlkeftang».

«Oe rol frakrr a taron.» = (nìoe[desc=for me]*[/desc]):

 "I typically/predictably/regularly/commonly/"always" sing when I hunt"

«Oe rerol nìlkeftang frakrr a taron.» = :

  "I'm just always singing whenever I'm out hunting." (Your fellow Na'vi are going to tell you "It's no wonder that you've never caught a thing!")  ;)

I believe that «frakrr» and «fralo» will never map perfectly 1:1 to to all the different ways that time is 'managed/discussed' in human language. The nature of needing to rely on the gist in some situations makes the distinction very interesting. As tsmukan wm.annis points out: "Translate the meaning, not the words."



msg=247910 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 19:01:19 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

I meant with frakrr a having effectively the same meaning as your second sentence.

Etymologically I see no reason why it shouldn't work but that is of course no guarantee that it does.



msg=247961 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 19:23:15 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10379.msg247910#msg247910 date=1277492479]
I meant with frakrr a having effectively the same meaning as your second sentence.

Etymologically I see no reason why it shouldn't work but that is of course no guarantee that it does.
[/quote]


[quote=Paul Frommer 17 June via e-mail]Getting back to your distinction between pointillistic and durative time (my terms, but I like 'em <g>), that's still TBD.[/quote]

"Durative time" (essentially "a period of time that has a 'beginning' and an 'end' ("the periods of time when you are hunting")) might come into play for this sense and he hasn't decided how it will work yet. My examples (“your distinction”) that he refers to would only confuse things, so for now, we'll just have to maweypey.  ;)



msg=248159 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-06-25 21:52:44 | u=195

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

esoanem

Ok, fair enough then. Irayo ma Prrton.



msg=255833 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 09:57:22 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

Set lolu oer säfpìl: lu awngar lì'fyavi san Trrle fpom, ma ... sìk a ralhu san Good morning ... sìk (Trr lefpom, ma Amerika). Slä set omum awngal lì'ut san rewon sìk. Tsun livatem fìlì'fyavi? Kxawm san Rewon lefpom sìk to san Trr lefpom sìk sìltsan livu (fpi san Good morning sìk), kefyak?



msg=255864 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 11:04:45 | u=631

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Fpìl oel futa tsaw tsunslu krr a fkol plltxe nìkenong san tsaw lu rewon lefpom/alor sìk, slä kehe na tìkenong mì ral na san zola’u nìprrte’ sìk fu san trr lefpom sìk fu san txon lefpom sìk fu san hivahaw nìmwey sìk. Sa’u lam oer fwa livu lì’fyavi letrrtrr na san idoms sìk fu san general aylì’fyavi sìk.
Fpìl oel futa K. Pawlìl poltxe san
[quote=K. Pawl mì Good Morning America]in Quebec last summer, I was surprised to find that people said “Bonjour,” which I always thought meant specifically “good morning” (and I think might be used that way in France), any time of day. I liked that—you don’t have to worry about whether it’s 11:58 AM, requiring “Good morning,” or 12:02 PM […] So in Na’vi it’s just « Trr lefpom » for any time during the day, and « Txon lefpom » for the night. And during the evening twilight, it would be « Txon’ong [txon’ong] lefpom » for “good evening,”[/quote]



msg=256046 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 15:15:36 | u=73

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Prrton

san« Rewon leFpom! »sìk a fì'uteri... tì'efumi oeyä txo fkol omum futa terìng mikyun a tuter lìryen 'uo a ke lu letrrtrr (natkenong fmetoko lìyatsu), tsun pivlltxe na fwa san« Rewon leFpom! »sìk.

Kaymam Karyuta oel fì'upxaret tolel.

[quote=Paul Frommer via e-mail 4th July, 2010]Tsìve lefpom.[/quote]

Fìlì'u a san« Tsìve »sìk lu ftxozä leYu.E.Sey. Nì'Ìnglìsì sute fìkllpxìltuä nìtrrtrr plltxe san« Happy Fourth! »sìk ulte tsun tslivam nìftue tsaral lu san« Tsìvea trr hapxìyä akive zìsìtä »sìk.




msg=256165 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 18:25:15 | u=3552

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

tigermind

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg256046#msg256046 date=1278342936]
[quote=Paul Frommer via e-mail 4th July, 2010]Tsìve lefpom.[/quote]

Fìlì'u a san« Tsìve »sìk lu ftxozä leYu.E.Sey. Nì'Ìnglìsì sute fìkllpxìltuä nìtrrtrr plltxe san« Happy Fourth! »sìk ulte tsun tslivam nìftue tsaral lu san« Tsìvea trr hapxìyä akive zìsìtä »sìk.
[/quote]

Txantsan.  Fì'uri fparmìl oel trram.  Tsari set oel omeium.



msg=256184 | topic=10379 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 18:46:39 | u=1550

Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...

Taras

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=10379.msg255864#msg255864 date=1278327885]
[font=Garamond]Fpìl oel futa tsaw tsunslu krr a fkol plltxe nìkenong san tsaw lu rewon lefpom/alor sìk, slä kehe na tìkenong mì ral na san zola’u nìprrte’ sìk fu san trr lefpom sìk fu san txon lefpom sìk fu san hivahaw nìmwey sìk. Sa’u lam oer fwa livu lì’fyavi letrrtrr na san idoms sìk fu san general aylì’fyavi sìk.
Fpìl oel futa K. Pawlìl poltxe san
[quote=K. Pawl mì Good Morning America]in Quebec last summer, I was surprised to find that people said “Bonjour,” which I always thought meant specifically “good morning” (and I think might be used that way in France), any time of day. I liked that—you don’t have to worry about whether it’s 11:58 AM, requiring “Good morning,” or 12:02 PM […] So in Na’vi it’s just « Trr lefpom » for any time during the day, and « Txon lefpom » for the night. And during the evening twilight, it would be « Txon’ong [txon’ong] lefpom » for “good evening,”[/quote]
[/quote]

Srane, oel fpamìl tsat.. Nìngay maw rewon lu trr lewotx ulte tsun fko pivlltxe san Trr lefpom sìk, txo new piveng futa fìtrr livu ngaru lefpom.

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10379.msg256046#msg256046 date=1278342936]
Kaymam Karyuta oel fì'upxaret tolel.

[quote=Paul Frommer via e-mail 4th July, 2010]Tsìve lefpom.[/quote]

Fìlì'u a san« Tsìve »sìk lu ftxozä leYu.E.Sey. Nì'Ìnglìsì sute fìkllpxìltuä nìtrrtrr plltxe san« Happy Fourth! »sìk ulte tsun tslivam nìftue tsaral lu san« Tsìvea trr hapxìyä akive zìsìtä »sìk.
[/quote]

Ha tsun fko sivar tsat ;) Irayo :)



msg=251826 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 00:11:45 | u=132

Some IPA News

Taronyu

So, I couldn't resist, and emailed Frommer with some questions. Here are the questions and the responses: they concern diphthong presentation, secondary stresses, and the u and ʊ distinction.

[quote=Taronyu]
I have a small question about the diphthongs. (Taken from a thread on LN:) Kemeoauniaea raised some good points in this thread, stating that my IPA notation of the diphthongs may not, in fact, be accurate. He, from his admittedly not-extensive look into IPA, would submit that:

[ ɛj ] [ aj ] [ ɛw ] [ aw ]

be replaced with

[ ɛɪ̯ ] [ aɪ̯ ] [ ɛʊ̯ ] [ aʊ̯ ] .

Note: Wikipedia: The diacritic <  ̯> is placed under the less prominent component to show that it is part of a diphthong rather than a separate vowel, though it is sometimes omitted in languages such as English, where there is not likely to be any confusion.

I initially had brushed this off as just differences in notation, but I think he actually has a really good point. The way I'm telling it now, there's no difference between 'e.wll and new. I think that the diphthong ought to be reflected and different: also compare yem and 'eyng.

So, I figured I'd ask you before I go through changing them, if this is what you envision the Na'vi sounds to sound more like. I know that you've said that:

[quote=Frommer]Open syllables always use a tense "u" pronunciation.  Closed syllables can be either tense "u" or lax "ʊ".  There is no rule for which to use in closed syllables.  So tsun, for example, can be either "tsun" or "tsʊn", but "lu" is always "lu", never "lʊ".[/quote]

So I wanted to make sure before I go through and possibly mess things up.[/quote]

And his response! Very detailed, as always.

[quote=Frommer]Sìpawm asìltsan.

There's variation in how people use IPA to transcribe diphthongs.

Kemeoauniaea is right that most transcribers seem to use the vowel+vowel method (with or without the diacritic under the second element in the case of "falling" diphthongs). But [aw], [aj], etc. are also used. Note what the Wikipedia "Diphthong" article says:

"The less prominent component in the diphthong may also be transcribed as an approximant, thus [aj] in eye and [ja] in yard. However, when the diphthong is analysed as a single phoneme, both elements are often transcribed with vowel letters (/aɪ̯/, /ɪ̯a/)."

A well-known textbook for students in introductory linguistics classes, Edward Finegan's "Language: Its Structure and Use," uses the vowel+approximant method, as I tend to do myself. I spoke to Ed about this, and he said he had considered using vowel plus vowel but decided against it.

So the bottom line is that [aj], [aw], [ej], and [ew] are used by some if not all professional linguists in an IPA context; the way you currently have it is justified.

That being said, you and Kemeoauniaea raise a valid point about possible ambiguities in transcription in certain circumstances. A clear example, I think, would be:

maweya ikran

If you transcribe the first word as [maweja], without showing the syllable boundaries, it's not clear whether the structure is (with D=diphthong) CVCVCV, CVCDA, CDVCA, or CDDA. (It's intended to be CVCDA, of course.) If you include the syllable boundaries, however, the ambiguity disappears: [ma.wej.a] can only be CVCDA. Same for 'ewll. It's true that [?ewll] is ambiguous, but if you insert the correct syllable boundary--[?e.wll]--then it's clear that ew is not a diphthong.

So it's really up to you. Either method is, I think, fine, as long as you've indicated the syllable boundaries. Perhaps the easiest solution would be to include a brief note somewhere, saying something like: "An alternate method of transcribing diphthongs, not use here, is . . . " and then illustrate the 2-vowel method.

As for your statement about the transcription of u, it's correct. In a word like tsun, some speakers will use the tense and others the lax pronunciation.[/quote]

In a follow up email, I asked him for stress information about the following words that have two stress marks, because I've been wondering for ages which was the secondary and which was primary.

[quote=Frommer]
Eywa Ngahu <<< I've included this, because it would presumably be said a single intonational phrase, and might have secondary stress. I may be wrong.
Eywa'eveng <<< Shoudn't this have two, being a compound polysllabic word?
iknimaya <<< Please, was there ever a derived form *ik sky or *maya heaven, or perhaps mountain (which we don't have a word for!)
meoauniaea
palulukan
talioang
tireafya'o <<< presumable main on RE
tireapängkxo <<< presumably main on RE as well
Uniltaron [/quote]

And here is his response!

[quote=Frommer]
Primary vs. secondary stress:

In Eywa ngahu, the two stresses are equal.

Eywa'eveng: Yes, you're right: secondary stress on Ey, primary on 'e.

For the others:

In talioang and the two tirea- words, the first stress is primary.

In all the others, it's the second stress that's primary.

As for iknimaya, that's a James Cameron word, and I don't know its derivation
[/quote]

What a good day. ˆ____________ˆ

ta Taronyu



msg=251839 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 00:31:18 | u=1550

Re: Some IPA News

Taras

Irayo ;)



msg=251843 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 00:41:01 | u=6582

Re: Some IPA News

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10658.msg251826#msg251826 date=1277856705]
[quote=Frommer]
So it's really up to you. Either method is, I think, fine, as long as you've indicated the syllable boundaries. Perhaps the easiest solution would be to include a brief note somewhere, saying something like: "An alternate method of transcribing diphthongs, not use here, is . . . " and then illustrate the 2-vowel method.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I agree with Frommer here.  Also if {aj}, {aw}, {ɛj}, and {ɛw} really mean {aɪ}, {aʊ}, {ɛɪ}, and {ɛʊ}, then you could notify the reader about that at the beginning of the dictionary of the transcriptions used so that phonetic misinformation is not given out.



msg=251845 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 00:46:22 | u=132

Re: Some IPA News

Taronyu

[quote author=ll.sxkxawng link=topic=10658.msg251843#msg251843 date=1277858461]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10658.msg251826#msg251826 date=1277856705]
[quote=Frommer]
So it's really up to you. Either method is, I think, fine, as long as you've indicated the syllable boundaries. Perhaps the easiest solution would be to include a brief note somewhere, saying something like: "An alternate method of transcribing diphthongs, not use here, is . . . " and then illustrate the 2-vowel method.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I agree with Frommer here.  Also if {aj}, {aw}, {ɛj}, and {ɛw} really mean {aɪ}, {aʊ}, {ɛɪ}, and {ɛʊ}, then you could notify the reader about that at the beginning of the dictionary of the transcriptions used so that phonetic misinformation is not given out.
[/quote]


Go look at the second page of the dictionary. ;)



msg=251847 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 00:53:21 | u=6582

Re: Some IPA News

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10658.msg251845#msg251845 date=1277858782]
[quote author=ll.sxkxawng link=topic=10658.msg251843#msg251843 date=1277858461]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10658.msg251826#msg251826 date=1277856705]
[quote=Frommer]
So it's really up to you. Either method is, I think, fine, as long as you've indicated the syllable boundaries. Perhaps the easiest solution would be to include a brief note somewhere, saying something like: "An alternate method of transcribing diphthongs, not use here, is . . . " and then illustrate the 2-vowel method.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I agree with Frommer here.  Also if {aj}, {aw}, {ɛj}, and {ɛw} really mean {aɪ}, {aʊ}, {ɛɪ}, and {ɛʊ}, then you could notify the reader about that at the beginning of the dictionary of the transcriptions used so that phonetic misinformation is not given out.
[/quote]


Go look at the second page of the dictionary. ;)
[/quote]

Nang nga lu win!  Nice update ;)



msg=251848 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 00:54:03 | u=132

Re: Some IPA News

Taronyu

Nah, I did that this afternoon, before I knew if I could post this email or not. Hrh.



msg=251856 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 01:15:08 | u=3552

Re: Some IPA News

tigermind

Ma Taronyu, do we know if this stress information holds for the other "Unil-" compounds?  i.e., Uniltìranyu, Uniltìrantokx?



msg=251861 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 01:22:19 | u=984

Re: Some IPA News

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]tsaw oeyä eltur tìtxen si
Added it to wiki.
There are no other single words matching to [font=monospace][desc=crazy regex stuff]\\[[^\\]]*ˈ[^\\]]*ˈ[^\\]]*\\][/desc]
(IPAs with two primary stresses).

This unil-compound question is interesting, but compare for example way and telem becomes waytelem or both pongu-compounds, hm...



msg=251955 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 07:19:02 | u=2541

Re: Some IPA News

Lrrtoksì nìhawng

Tewti! Fì'u txantsana fmawn leiu!

By dumb luck, I was pronouncing these correctly the whole time. It gives me that warm fuzzy feeling. :D Since it's important to show the syllable boundaries anyway, I'd be inclined to go with that method along with Frommer's suggestion about having a note explaining the alternate method for treating dipthongs. As for the iknimaya question, I remember hearing it pronounced as iknimaya in an interview. I want to say it was James Cameron but it could have been someone else associated with the movie.



msg=252006 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 08:30:59 | u=132

Re: Some IPA News

Taronyu

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=10658.msg251856#msg251856 date=1277860508]
Ma Taronyu, do we know if this stress information holds for the other "Unil-" compounds?  i.e., Uniltìranyu, Uniltìrantokx?
[/quote]

No, we don't. But Frommer has never given us two stresses for those.



msg=252014 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 08:39:51 | u=195

Re: Some IPA News

esoanem

I never said your notation wasn't accurate, just that it was the minority transcription from what I'd seen.

Whatever, we've got a Frommerian carte blanche so that's good.

On an unrelated side-note, as regards u, closed syllables include those without an onset if I understand correctly so uvan and unil (and derivatives) could both take the lax pronunciation ko? The only reason I ask is that I had though that the pseudo-vowels were only allowed in open syllables but then found out that they had to have an onset so I'm just checking that when we say closed we actually mean closed and not something broadly similar as we did with open syllable ll and rr.



msg=252016 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 08:45:16 | u=132

Re: Some IPA News

Taronyu

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10658.msg252014#msg252014 date=1277887191]
I never said your notation wasn't accurate, just that it was the minority transcription from what I'd seen.

Whatever, we've got a Frommerian carte blanche so that's good.

On an unrelated side-note, as regards u, closed syllables include those without an onset if I understand correctly so uvan and unil (and derivatives) could both take the lax pronunciation ko? The only reason I ask is that I had though that the pseudo-vowels were only allowed in open syllables but then found out that they had to have an onset so I'm just checking that when we say closed we actually mean closed and not something broadly similar as we did with open syllable ll and rr.
[/quote]

Sorry man! Must have misread.

And I don't know about open syllables. I always thought that onsets didn't matter, but I'm not sure.



msg=252130 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 12:28:06 | u=21

Re: Some IPA News

wm.annis

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10658.msg252016#msg252016 date=1277887516]And I don't know about open syllables. I always thought that onsets didn't matter, but I'm not sure.
[/quote]

I am.  :)  Onsets don't matter for determining if a syllable is open or closed, only a coda.



msg=252138 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 12:35:35 | u=54

Re: Some IPA News

Tiger

For rr and ll, frommer does not only explain their structure in terms of requiring an open syllable.  Rather he describes them as taking the place of the vowel in CV syllables specifically.  So the required onset is just the nature of the psuedovowel syllables.  (It just so happens that also means they must be open syllables, but it is not the defining feature.)



msg=252140 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 12:39:37 | u=195

Re: Some IPA News

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10658.msg252138#msg252138 date=1277901335]
For rr and ll, frommer does not only explain their structure in terms of requiring an open syllable.  Rather he describes them as taking the place of the vowel in CV syllables specifically.  So the required onset is just the nature of the psuedovowel syllables.  (It just so happens that also means they must be open syllables, but it is not the defining feature.)
[/quote]

Ok, so it was just me reading a flawed explanation. This would mean that uvan could be pronounced with a lax u then if Frommer's always used the terms properly.



msg=252143 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 12:42:18 | u=21

Re: Some IPA News

wm.annis

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10658.msg252140#msg252140 date=1277901577]Ok, so it was just me reading a flawed explanation. This would mean that uvan could be pronounced with a lax u then if Frommer's always used the terms properly.
[/quote]

No, no, uvan needs tense /u/.  Remember, /v/ can never be a coda in Na'vi.  It must be syllabified u.van.



msg=252146 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 12:47:12 | u=132

Re: Some IPA News

Taronyu

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10658.msg252140#msg252140 date=1277901577]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10658.msg252138#msg252138 date=1277901335]
For rr and ll, frommer does not only explain their structure in terms of requiring an open syllable.  Rather he describes them as taking the place of the vowel in CV syllables specifically.  So the required onset is just the nature of the psuedovowel syllables.  (It just so happens that also means they must be open syllables, but it is not the defining feature.)
[/quote]

Ok, so it was just me reading a flawed explanation. This would mean that uvan could be pronounced with a lax u then if Frommer's always used the terms properly.
[/quote]

No, because uvan splits u.van. Ul.te, on the other hand, works.



msg=252148 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 12:51:37 | u=195

Re: Some IPA News

esoanem

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=10658.msg252143#msg252143 date=1277901738]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10658.msg252140#msg252140 date=1277901577]Ok, so it was just me reading a flawed explanation. This would mean that uvan could be pronounced with a lax u then if Frommer's always used the terms properly.
[/quote]

No, no, uvan needs tense /u/.  Remember, /v/ can never be a coda in Na'vi.  It must be syllabified u.van.
[/quote]

Gah! Forgot that.

Unil though can be lax then?

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10658.msg252146#msg252146 date=1277902032]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10658.msg252140#msg252140 date=1277901577]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10658.msg252138#msg252138 date=1277901335]
For rr and ll, frommer does not only explain their structure in terms of requiring an open syllable.  Rather he describes them as taking the place of the vowel in CV syllables specifically.  So the required onset is just the nature of the psuedovowel syllables.  (It just so happens that also means they must be open syllables, but it is not the defining feature.)
[/quote]

Ok, so it was just me reading a flawed explanation. This would mean that uvan could be pronounced with a lax u then if Frommer's always used the terms properly.
[/quote]

No, because uvan splits u.van. Ul.te, on the other hand, works.
[/quote]

I really need to remember about v, s, f, z, h and ts.



msg=252286 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 16:29:13 | u=21

Re: Some IPA News

wm.annis

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10658.msg252148#msg252148 date=1277902297]Unil though can be lax then?
[/quote]

It looks like Frommer syllabifies this /u.nil/ (accent on the first syllable), so again tense /u/ here.



msg=252294 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 16:32:00 | u=5790

Re: Some IPA News

Muzer

U.nil does seem the most natural way of saying it. I think I read somewhere that most Na'vi tends to "want to" fall into a CV.CV.CV pattern, and usually does so unless the rules prohibit it.



msg=252316 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 16:50:15 | u=195

Re: Some IPA News

esoanem

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=10658.msg252286#msg252286 date=1277915353]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10658.msg252148#msg252148 date=1277902297]Unil though can be lax then?
[/quote]

It looks like Frommer syllabifies this /u.nil/ (accent on the first syllable), so again tense /u/ here.

[/quote]

That's how I've been pronouncing it, I just wanted to know if the lax pronunciation was allowed, it sounds odd though.



msg=252470 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 19:50:00 | u=54

Re: Some IPA News

Tiger

ulte can certainly be lax though, and to me that "feels" like the more natural way to pronounce it.



msg=252474 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 19:55:37 | u=195

Re: Some IPA News

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10658.msg252470#msg252470 date=1277927400]
ulte can certainly be lax though, and to me that "feels" like the more natural way to pronounce it.
[/quote]

I realised recently that I'd been doing so even before we got the explicit rules about lax pronunciation.



msg=252523 | topic=10658 | board=99 | time=2010-06-30 21:01:22 | u=21

Re: Some IPA News

wm.annis

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10658.msg252474#msg252474 date=1277927737]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10658.msg252470#msg252470 date=1277927400]
ulte can certainly be lax though, and to me that "feels" like the more natural way to pronounce it.
[/quote]

I realised recently that I'd been doing so even before we got the explicit rules about lax pronunciation.
[/quote]

Native speakers of English will fall into that habit naturally.



msg=254625 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 18:50:04 | u=132

Some Glossed-over Words

Taronyu

So, I was checking my dictionary today against a massive sheet that Frommer gave us ages ago, and found some words that weren't in there, for various reasons. Some might have been held back - let me know if so, and I'll remove them. We might know these anyway, but since I think some people only go off of my dictionary, here they are anyway. Here is what I added:

fratxon - adv. every night
hìkrr - n. second, very short time
kefya srak - phrase. isn't that so? Right? no?
mawkrr - adv. after, afterwards
ngeyn - adj. tired
ngopyu - n. creator
nìk'ong - adv. slowly
pamtseotu - n. musician
sat - pn. that (after ftu only)
tsal - pn. that, it (transitive subject)
tsat - pn. that, it (object)
tsaw - pn. that, it (intranstive subject)
tsawlhì' - n. size
lehrrap - adj. dangerous
keyawr - adj. incorrect

And I changed the stress for keyawr, lefpomtokx, Otranyu, tsa-hey

And two new words from a recent post by Omängi fra'uti:

lì'fyavi - n. expression, bit of language
nafì'u - adj. such

Interesting, no?



msg=254643 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 19:10:32 | u=73

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Prrton

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10755.msg254625#msg254625 date=1278183004]

sat - pn. that (after ftu only)

[/quote]

I may be mistaken, but I think that «sat» is irregularly lenited after «ftu(-)», but would undergo lenition normally after:

  mì(+)
  ro(+)
  sre(+)
  wä(+)


  etc...



msg=254645 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 19:13:09 | u=132

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Taronyu

Ma prrton, nga eyawr lu. Good spot. Make more sense.



msg=254662 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 19:21:33 | u=0

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Swoka Swizaw

A "massive sheet" meaning? I sense conspiracy. ::)



msg=254668 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 19:24:33 | u=73

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Prrton

[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=10755.msg254662#msg254662 date=1278184893]
A "massive sheet" meaning? I sense conspiracy. ::)
[/quote]

Let's just say that some (ehem) “vocabulary” fell off the back of a truck.  8)

It is now all completely “accounted” for.



msg=254673 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 19:25:46 | u=5790

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Muzer

Lol, um, what?



msg=254676 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 19:27:29 | u=132

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Taronyu

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=10755.msg254673#msg254673 date=1278185146]
Lol, um, what?
[/quote]

Maybe that was bad wording on my part.

Anyway, yeah. These are new words. Pretty awesome. I am looking forward to using ngeyn tonight.



msg=254688 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 19:32:56 | u=73

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Prrton

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=10755.msg254673#msg254673 date=1278185146]
Lol, um, what?
[/quote]

For a little while, there was a chunk of lexical items that were gradually released by various folks. The novelty has long since been exhausted.

And, BTW, «ngeyn» is not particularly new. It's been public for at least a couple of months.



msg=254702 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 19:47:32 | u=984

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]Roger [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/ltasygt-with-ke-and-nga/]said[/url] he used it „accidentally“ therefore I though it was not to be public yet.



msg=254714 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 20:02:21 | u=132

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Taronyu

[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=10755.msg254702#msg254702 date=1278186452]
[font=Book Antiqua]Roger [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/ltasygt-with-ke-and-nga/]said[/url] he used it „accidentally“ therefore I though it was not to be public yet.
[/quote]

Same.



msg=254802 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 20:50:15 | u=21

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

wm.annis

Oy.  A few of these were missing from the wiki vocabulary, too.



msg=254866 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 21:50:13 | u=54

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Tiger

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10755.msg254643#msg254643 date=1278184232]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10755.msg254625#msg254625 date=1278183004]

sat - pn. that (after ftu only)

[/quote]

I may be mistaken, but I think that «sat» is irregularly lenited after «ftu(-)», but would undergo lenition normally after:

  mì(+)
  ro(+)
  sre(+)
  wä(+)


  etc...
[/quote]It's more than just irregular lenition, if that were it, it would be "saw" or "sa'u", not "sat".  Where does the -t come from when it's used with an adposition?



msg=254932 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 22:23:11 | u=73

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10755.msg254866#msg254866 date=1278193813]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10755.msg254643#msg254643 date=1278184232]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10755.msg254625#msg254625 date=1278183004]

sat - pn. that (after ftu only)

[/quote]

I may be mistaken, but I think that «sat» is irregularly lenited after «ftu(-)», but would undergo lenition normally after:

  mì(+)
  ro(+)
  sre(+)
  wä(+)


  etc...
[/quote]It's more than just irregular lenition, if that were it, it would be "saw" or "sa'u", not "sat".  Where does the -t come from when it's used with an adposition?
[/quote]

It's a good question. I didn't think about it deeply. It could also be something that really isn't "still relevant." (Some note left over from some dialogue malfunction that has not appeared on the screen (so far)...)

Fko zenatse fmivi piveng...


Does «ftu sat» appear in canon anywhere?



msg=254959 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 23:04:44 | u=1550

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Taras

I agree with Omängum fra'uti. "Sat" and other words with -ti can be only an object, but with adpositions (ftu or others) they never are objects of actions.

Oe kolä ftu tsaw - only thus, I think ;)

(Perhaps here must be "tsatseng" instead of "tsaw", however for this example it is not important)

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10755.msg254866#msg254866 date=1278193813]
it would be "saw" or "sa'u"
[/quote]

But I think here can't be "saw". This word means "sky" in plural (or with leniting adp.) and seems to me that we must use "sa'u" only :) Or perhaps it is the another example of ambiguity, if we can use "saw" as lenited "tsaw" :D



msg=255001 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 00:22:18 | u=54

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Tiger

Right, I agree saw wouldn't be correct.  But "sat" is listed as "that after ftu" from Frommer, so there's SOMETHING there that's irregular.  Given that it was in the ASG, it seems like it came out a bit early to just be a dialog slip-up canonized.



msg=255014 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 00:56:57 | u=1550

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Taras

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=10755.msg255001#msg255001 date=1278202938]
But "sat" is listed as "that after ftu" from Frommer, so there's SOMETHING there that's irregular.
[/quote]

Then I can't understand it :( Oe tolätxaw ftu sat a satsenge oe trakrr namew tivok. I can't see the meaning here... Why "-t"?



msg=255109 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 07:40:23 | u=195

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

esoanem

On a standard dvorak keyboard t and w are diagonally next to each other so it could be a typo, maybe we should get it confirmed?



msg=255246 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 13:35:01 | u=1550

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Taras

And to me too it seems mistake...



msg=255261 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 14:03:14 | u=73

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Prrton

[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=10755.msg255109#msg255109 date=1278229223]
On a standard dvorak keyboard t and w are diagonally next to each other so it could be a typo, maybe we should get it confirmed?
[/quote]

  pawl at naviteri dot org    ;)



msg=255266 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 14:12:06 | u=1550

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Taras

Ngaytxoa, ke tsun oe rivun melì'ut a san ftu sat sìk tsatsenge.



msg=255279 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 14:24:52 | u=73

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10755.msg255266#msg255266 date=1278252726]
Ngaytxoa, ke tsun oe rivun melì'ut a san ftu sat sìk tsatsenge.
[/quote]

Oel fpìl futa oeru kop ke lolu kawkrr fwa tsafya tsamelì'uti tsole'a.



msg=255281 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 14:27:30 | u=1550

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Taras

Oeru txoa livu.. oel ke tslolam futa nga namew piveng aylì'ufa san pawl at naviteri dot org sìk. Oel fpamìl futa nga poltxe san Pawlìl srekrr poltxe tsat mì fìpok peyä sìk, slä ke tsame'a oel tsat kawkrr... Set fì'u law nìwotx lu :)



msg=255283 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 14:33:21 | u=73

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10755.msg255281#msg255281 date=1278253650]
Oeru txoa livu.. oel ke tslolam futa nga namew piveng aylì'ufa san pawl at naviteri dot org sìk. Oel fpamìl futa nga poltxe san Pawlìl srekrr poltxe tsat mì fìpok peyä sìk, slä ke tsame'a oel tsat kawkrr... Set fì'u law nìwotx lu :)
[/quote]

Kehe, ma tsmukan. Tsaylì'u a san pawl @ naviteri . org sìk nì'aw. Oel fpìl futa fko tsun por ätxäle sivi tsnì fìtxeleri frapor oeyktìving.



msg=255288 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 14:38:05 | u=1550

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Taras

Aaa. Oe skxawng lu ;D Lamam oer fwa "at" = "at" le'Ìnglìsìa :D Ke tsun oeru txoa livu fìkxeyeyìri kaw'it nìngay >:(

Irayo, ma tsmukan :)



msg=271319 | topic=10755 | board=99 | time=2010-07-22 17:07:32 | u=5790

Re: Some Glossed-over Words

Muzer

I only just noticed that "size" is in here - I was previously tentatively using "tìapxa". I'll do a find and replace (fortunately nouns like that are easy to search for - when it's verbs, or even worse, incorrect constructions that I've been using, it's much harder).



msg=254889 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 22:01:47 | u=132

Ewll

Taronyu

Tse... Today I was cruising around online and saw that Mech's wiktionary had some words I hadn't seen before. I searched a bit harder, and found that Pandorapedia had a ton of plant names that the ASG didn't have. So I added all of those to my dictionary, and then wondered about the stress. Luckily, Frommer is the man. So: Here, for the first time, is the correct stress and spelling for all of the plant names he made for the botanists. Pretty fricken cool. They're all in the dictionary appendix, now. Worth noting: utral utu mauti, the push banana fruit, is the only non-Frommerian word (figures). All the rest are 100% awesome.



’ä’opitcher (plant)
’ampirikxleaf pitcher (plant)
’ele’wllthorny paw (plant)
anìheyufibonacci (plant)
apxangrrdelta tree
awaieibanshee of paradise (plant)
eaneancheadle (plant) (both stresses primary)
eyayewarbonnet fern (plant)
fkxakewllthistle bud (plant)
fleflesols delight (plant)
fngapsutxwllanemonoid (plant)
fwäkìwllmantis orchid
rumwllpuffer (plant)
kllpxiwlllionberry (plant)
kxayltecillaphant (plant)
loreyuhelicoradian (plant)
mìnyutwisted lily (plant)
mulpxarroosterhead (plant)
pa’liwlldirehorse pitcher plant
pamtseowllcat ear plant
paywlldapophet (plant)
penghrrapbinary sunshine (plant)
pxayzekspiny whips (plant)
pxiut razor palm
pxiwllhermit bud (plant)
pxorna’episoth (plant)
pxorna’lorsari (plant) (Also both stresses primary)
rawpbladder pod (plant)
rumutpuffball tree
smaoephalanxia (plant)
sngukxgrub plant
somtìlorpopsicle (plant)
syeptutehyneman (plant)
tautralbeanstalk palm
tawtsngalpanopyra (plant)
hawnuwllspartan (plant)
tompawllgeode (plant)
torukspxamoctoshroom (plant)
tsawlapx(angrr)unidelta tree(short form tsawlapx)
tstxa’acanalyd (plant)
tsyorina’wllcycad (plant)
txll’uhookagourd (plant)
txumpaywllscorpion thistle (plant)
txumtsä’wllbaja tickler (plant)
fewllcentipede (plant)
rumutvein pod (plant)
yomhì’angdakteron (plant)
yomioang\


msg=254901 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 22:07:16 | u=1975

Re: Ewll

Ean Tirea

tewti!!

I am wondering now if it is fruitful to memorize these.....probably not now...maybe after I have memorized every other word in the dictionary that is NOT a proper noun....EPIC post tho.



msg=254909 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 22:10:47 | u=631

Re: Ewll

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Yeah, massive indeed!

On second thought:
I’m not a botanist — I have no idea how I should translate those :(



msg=254916 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 22:15:36 | u=3552

Re: Ewll

tigermind

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=10760.msg254909#msg254909 date=1278195047]
[font=Garamond]Yeah, massive indeed!

On second thought:
I’m not a botanist — I have no idea how I should translate those :(

[/quote]

Maybe Pandorapedia already has translations?



msg=254920 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 22:16:48 | u=132

Re: Ewll

Taronyu

It does. If you'll want, I'll sit down later and provide all of the derivations. I have them in my dictionary, though, that's probably easier.

[url=http://mwf-data.clonk2c.ch/dvi/attach/NaviDictionary.pdf]Go to the Appendix[/url]



msg=254933 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-03 22:23:31 | u=3552

Re: Ewll

tigermind

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10760.msg254920#msg254920 date=1278195408]
It does. If you'll want, I'll sit down later and provide all of the derivations. I have them in my dictionary, though, that's probably easier.

[url=http://mwf-data.clonk2c.ch/dvi/attach/NaviDictionary.pdf]Go to the Appendix[/url]
[/quote]

I meant translations of the stxo le'Ìnglìsì—so Plumps could translate those.  But if you've got derivations for all these plant-names, i'll have to check those out in the dictionary.  *joy*



msg=255045 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 02:00:07 | u=3552

Re: Ewll

tigermind

Ma Taronyu, a possible derivation i think you missed:

hìrumwll = hì('ia)-rum-('e)wll = small ball plant

Edit:  There were originally two here, then i realized i had misread the second.  Ngaytxoa.



msg=255105 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 07:35:15 | u=4754

Re: Ewll

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Oe lu fpom nang I appreciate the creation of this terminology. I wonder when fauna will follow? Is that worth asking K. Pawl about?

I'm giving some thought of creating a scientific/technical/engineering subdictionary.



msg=255182 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 11:11:12 | u=4313

Re: Ewll

michelle

looking forward to fauna  ;D
Irayo for the updated dictionary



msg=255199 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 11:33:41 | u=132

Re: Ewll

Taronyu

I don't think that there will be more Fauna. These are words he created months and months ago, and they've been around - just without the correct spelling or stress information.



msg=255310 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 15:12:44 | u=73

Re: Ewll

Prrton

There are a few on here that make me curious about possible root or other corollary meanings:

- fle
- mul
- pxar
- rawp
- sma (if it indeed stands alone)
- tstxa ( tstxa’ ? )
- txll

«Sngukx» *feels* to me like it would simply be that as a name for the plant and nothing more.

I particularly conceptually like «tautral» and the fact that the sawtute named it after an ’Rrtan fairytale. I can just see the thing slithering up into the clouds.

Perhaps «rawp» is our word for "bag/pocket"?



msg=255351 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-04 16:33:29 | u=132

Re: Ewll

Taronyu

I'd like to know how much Pawl had access to the botanical information of these before writing them. I didn't think to ask. That might shed some interesting light on his constructions.



msg=255755 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 07:18:18 | u=4754

Re: Ewll

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10760.msg255199#msg255199 date=1278243221]
I don't think that there will be more Fauna. These are words he created months and months ago, and they've been around - just without the correct spelling or stress information.
[/quote]

There has to be at least one more fauna iitem. I have not seen anywhere a term to describe the protolemur. Maybe I am missing something somewhere. Unless it has another name, it is not in the dictionary.

A few of these flora names stand out to me:

anìheyu\



msg=255807 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 09:21:15 | u=132

Re: Ewll

Taronyu

Answers to your questions here dude: [url=http://www.pandorapedia.com/]http://www.pandorapedia.com/[/url]



msg=256448 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 21:34:40 | u=1120

Re: Ewll

roger

Was there a typo in kxaylte? The L in the 1st syllable?

Txumpaywll has also got to be wrong. Makes me wonder about the syllabification of rumut, yomhì’ang, tsawlapx.



msg=256542 | topic=10760 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 22:58:18 | u=132

Re: Ewll

Taronyu

[quote author=roger link=topic=10760.msg256448#msg256448 date=1278365680]
Was there a typo in kxaylte? The L in the 1st syllable?

Txumpaywll has also got to be wrong. Makes me wonder about the syllabification of rumut, yomhì’ang, tsawlapx.
[/quote]

Txumpaywll, you're right. All the rest are as given by Frommer.



msg=256106 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 17:29:44 | u=132

Stxo

Taronyu

So....I added a ton of names I found on a game website. And then I decided that I'd kind of like to know which ones were from Frommer or others. And since Frommer, as said before, is awesome, I now know. And now you do too.

\


msg=256121 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 17:48:31 | u=3051

Re: Stxo

Goplat

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10808.msg256106#msg256106 date=1278350984]
\


msg=256125 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 17:50:43 | u=132

Re: Stxo

Taronyu

Maybe he edited it?

:D



msg=256129 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 17:54:33 | u=1317

Re: Stxo

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=10808.msg256121#msg256121 date=1278352111]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=10808.msg256106#msg256106 date=1278350984]
\


msg=256188 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 18:51:54 | u=1120

Re: Stxo

roger

Must be a typo. Peyral is another Cameronian name. We're also missing Ninat and Silwanin.

Did we ever confirm the name of that horse?



msg=256204 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-05 19:15:24 | u=1550

Re: Stxo

Taras

Irayo ;) Fì'u tsun srung sivi tìngopìri vurä fpi aysänumvi Karyuä ;)



msg=256631 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 05:05:50 | u=6582

Re: Stxo

lapo lesxkxawng

Tìpawm: How are Kyuna and U'imi [desc=huyuticaya: a misspelling, perhaps, like Omaticaya?]huyutikaya[/desc] illegal Na'vi phonotactics?

[quote author=roger link=topic=10808.msg256188#msg256188 date=1278355914]
Must be a typo. Peyral is another Cameronian name. We're also missing Ninat and Silwanin.

Did we ever confirm the name of that horse?
[/quote]

I heard it as Vale in the movie.



msg=256673 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 06:04:07 | u=631

Re: Stxo

Plumps83

[quote author=ll.sxkxawng link=topic=10808.msg256631#msg256631 date=1278392750]
Tìpawm: How are Kyuna […] illegal Na'vi phonotactics?[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Only f, s, and ts can form consonant clusters. Therefore *ky is illegal



msg=256690 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 07:03:24 | u=1120

Re: Stxo

roger

[quote author=ll.sxkxawng link=topic=10808.msg256631#msg256631 date=1278392750]
Tìpawm: How are Kyuna and U'imi [desc=huyuticaya: a misspelling, perhaps, like Omaticaya?]huyutikaya[/desc] illegal Na'vi phonotactics?

[quote author=roger link=topic=10808.msg256188#msg256188 date=1278355914]
Must be a typo. Peyral is another Cameronian name. We're also missing Ninat and Silwanin.

Did we ever confirm the name of that horse?
[/quote]

I heard it as Vale in the movie.
[/quote]

Yes, that's what it sounds like to me too, but we could easily be wrong. With all the sound mixing, it might even just be pa'li!



msg=256786 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 09:43:23 | u=132

Re: Stxo

Taronyu

Good catch, Roger. I missed those when I compiled my second list. Frommer doesn't say that JC made them, but they're in the script. Well...

Beyral is, but it's illegal.
Silwanin is.
Ninat is.

Yes, huyuticaya could just be a mispelling... and so could Beyral be one of Pxeyral.

No name for Horse in the 2007 script...



msg=256915 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 12:24:09 | u=5790

Re: Stxo

Muzer

I think it's pale in the subtitles, definitely starts with p though.



msg=256933 | topic=10808 | board=99 | time=2010-07-06 13:08:33 | u=6582

Re: Stxo

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=10808.msg256673#msg256673 date=1278396247]
[quote author=ll.sxkxawng link=topic=10808.msg256631#msg256631 date=1278392750]
Tìpawm: How are Kyuna […] illegal Na'vi phonotactics?[/quote]

[font=Garamond]Only f, s, and ts can form consonant clusters. Therefore *ky is illegal
[/quote]

Irayo, slipped my memory for a sec :P

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=10808.msg256915#msg256915 date=1278419049]
I think it's pale in the subtitles, definitely starts with p though.
[/quote]

You could be right.  As roger said, the name seems ambiguous given the speech of the actors and sound mixing....



msg=258793 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 11:04:02 | u=132

The Wiki Canon & Corpus

Taronyu

Kaltxì ma frapo,

There is an amazing resource that I don't think is getting the attention it deserves. This subforum here is instrumental in hashing out what Frommer means from his messages, but isn't really suitable when trying to find that exact linguistic example, or trying to remember what Frommer said about "uvan si". But there is a place for that sort of search - the wiki. Here are the pages I think are most useful:


  • [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Main_Page]The Wiki Main Page[/url] - The Central Hub, as it were.

  • [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Corpus]The Corpus[/url] - Where all official Frommerian updates should go.

  • [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon]The Canon[/url] - Where all emails from Frommer are placed. This is where most of the stuff on this board has gone, or should go.

  • [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June]The More Recent Canon[/url] - From March to June. I don't know why these are split up, but this is just as useful as the above one.

  • [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Na'vi_from_Avatar_Movie]Lines from Avatar[/url] - For when you can't figure it out.

  • [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Vocabulary]Vocabulary[/url] - This is a great resource. I've found words in here that weren't in my dictionary, and it has examples for many of the words - which I don't.


There's another page worth mentioning: the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Help_Wanted]Help Wanted[/url] page. The wiki is a user-changed system - You can go on right now and delete everything, you have that sort of power (don't). What you can do to be constructive is to look around here, and every time that you see a new post, put it in the wiki. I use this as my definitive guide to how to speak Na'vi - if everything we knew was in here, we could all use it to improve ourselves.

I just wanted to point this out. Seriously, the wiki is awesome: sar fkot!





msg=258840 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 11:51:30 | u=984

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

okrìsti

[font=Book Antiqua]So, yeah.
The splitting up of the Canon is a little odd, the way it is right now.
I would do
1. an entry page and put everything on sub-pages with a little navigation between them, or
2. everything on one page, which will get a confusing (too).
Either way, I think they need a kind of reformatting, maybe even a kind of index.

The Movie Lines, are nice, I wanted to gloss them, but I was lazy lately, therefore I have not done much for a while. There section with "Attack on Hometree" is somehow incorrect, probably will do this today.

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/User:Ochristi/Construction/Na%27vi_from_Avatar_Movie]» This[/url] is how far I came. :)



msg=258883 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 12:36:04 | u=21

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

wm.annis

Yeah, the split of the canon pages is because the main one was getting too huge — huge enough for the Wiki software to complain (the same is currently true of the Vocabulary as well).  A reorg of that might be nice, but it would also break a zillion links throughout the rest of the wiki, since we often reference the canon and corpus items for examples.



msg=258897 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 13:06:25 | u=984

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

okrìsti

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=10898.msg258883#msg258883 date=1278592564]
Yeah, the split of the canon pages is because the main one was getting too huge — huge enough for the Wiki software to complain (the same is currently true of the Vocabulary as well).  A reorg of that might be nice, but it would also break a zillion links throughout the rest of the wiki, since we often reference the canon and corpus items for examples.
[/quote]

[font=Book Antiqua]If Canon gets moved to let us say Canon/2010/December-'09-Februar the links can easily altered to work again.
There are [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Special:WhatLinksHere/Canon]some pages[/url] affected, but not that much.




msg=258952 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 15:06:17 | u=3552

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

tigermind

K.  I just went onto the wiki and added the e-mail convo i'd had with Karyu Pawl.  I hope the formatting and all was right =\\  Sorry i didn't spend too much time making it prettified; got my master's thesis defense in a few hours (eek!).



msg=258966 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 15:33:05 | u=132

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

Taronyu

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=10898.msg258952#msg258952 date=1278601577]
K.  I just went onto the wiki and added the e-mail convo i'd had with Karyu Pawl.  I hope the formatting and all was right =\\  Sorry i didn't spend too much time making it prettified; got my master's thesis defense in a few hours (eek!).
[/quote]

Good luck! And thanks.



msg=611673 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2014-07-22 19:09:31 | u=7704

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

radek.raszka

It's half of 2014 and there's no new records in Canon for this year. Nothing worth to add it there?



msg=611694 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2014-07-23 01:52:48 | u=1975

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

Ean Tirea

Oh there's a lot since the last update there. It's just most people forget about the existence of the Wiki. Editing the Wiki is on my list of things to do. :)



msg=611699 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2014-07-23 06:44:51 | u=10322

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

Titstewan

Tì'efumì oeyä, there need some structural changes anyway...
If one look at the "corpus" pages it's like a monster.
Why the canon stuff could not be better categorized? I hove no concret idea how or what yet, but with the work on the new books especially the "Big One" we will see what would be necessary to update, change or should be added. (The "Big One" should contains link to their canon source. Ma TA, I think, I will talk about it when I'm 100% ready for this new project. ;))

Plus, I see there is missing some newer links in the "Resources", oh well.


E: Beware the edits!



msg=611710 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2014-07-23 13:16:58 | u=1975

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

Ean Tirea

Why not make wiki accounts and we all work on it?



msg=611711 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2014-07-23 13:25:59 | u=10322

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

Titstewan

Yeah (I have already one), first, one must let create an account (one must post into [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/website-info/learn-na%27vi-wiki/]this thread[/url] to let the bosses of the LN wiki know that one want an account there, then, they will create one for you.)
Then, smuk can work on it. :)



msg=640799 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2016-01-23 18:35:11 | u=10322

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

Titstewan

FYI

I took the liberty to re-organize some lyrics by CdS - Toruk: The first flight. It got an own page [[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Na'vi_by_Cirque_du_Soleil]Na'vi by Cirque du Soleil[/url]] and it is on the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Main_Page]main page[/url]:
  • ...

  • [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Na%27vi_from_Avatar_Movie]Na'vi lines[/url] from the Movie 'Avatar' (work in progress).

  • [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Na%27vi_by_Cirque_du_Soleil]Na'vi by Cirque du Soleil[/url] (work in progress)

  • [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Phonology]Phonology[/url]

  • ...


Also,
[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27071.msg640528#msg640528 date=1453062525]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27071.msg640520#msg640520 date=1453048056]
Btw, can somebody with wiki-power add this article, i.e. the French flyer to the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Corpus]Corpus page[/url] for refence? I also find it interesting that we get our first example of yaymak here.[/quote]
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Corpus#Cirque_du_Soleil:_Toruk_-_The_First_Flight]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Corpus#Cirque_du_Soleil:_Toruk_-_The_First_Flight[/url]
^Fìtsenge. :D (I've added the original Na'vi text as well as a corrected one. (fixed the missing ì and that typo at ayolo'ur)
Btw, can someone with French language power check my English translations?[/quote]
Has been moved to Text Corpus instead of Audio Corpus:
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Corpus#Cirque_du_Soleil:_Toruk_-_The_First_Flight]1.21 Cirque du Soleil: Toruk - The First Flight[/url]
:toruk:



msg=640853 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2016-01-24 15:28:20 | u=7704

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

radek.raszka

IMHO it would be fair to add note, that text of Lu 'Aw Na'vi comes from the YT video. However this text differs from that one I hear in soundtrack. I wonder if there are two versions or final version was simplified....



msg=640861 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2016-01-24 16:21:54 | u=10322

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

Titstewan

If I am not mistaken, Lu 'aw Na'vi aka Awnga lu 'aw means the same song. I have added a link to the source (that video where the sheet appeared).
The difference is, that the "Lu 'aw Na'vi" is a shortened version.

If I heared it correctly, there is missing these two lines:
'Awstengyäpem,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,


and

Seykxel sì txur,
Lu 'aw Na'vi.


----
So, "Lu 'aw Na'vi" is:
Awnga lu 'aw,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,

Lu txur awnga,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,

Awnga lu 'aw,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,

Lu txur awnga,
Lu 'aw Na'vi.


(I hope there will be a lyrics in the CD version...)

Tam, did some edits:
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Na%27vi_by_Cirque_du_Soleil#Awnga_Lu_.27Aw_-_We_Are_One]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Na%27vi_by_Cirque_du_Soleil#Awnga_Lu_.27Aw_-_We_Are_One[/url]



msg=641013 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2016-01-27 19:28:32 | u=7704

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=10898.msg640861#msg640861 date=1453652514]
So, "Lu 'aw Na'vi" is:
Awnga lu 'aw,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,

Lu txur awnga,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,

Awnga lu 'aw,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,

Lu txur awnga,
Lu 'aw Na'vi.

[/quote]
That's exactly what I can hear in soundtrack. My source is not official, so I'm not sure if song name is correct - I have no booklet. Maybe someone else can help in this area.



msg=641015 | topic=10898 | board=99 | time=2016-01-27 19:34:22 | u=10322

Re: The Wiki Canon & Corpus

Titstewan

We should hope that the CD version contains the lyrics of these songs.

@Lu 'aw Na'vi
[url=https://www.amazon.com/Lu-Aw-Navi/dp/B01956WM50/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1453923123&sr=8-3&keywords=cirque+du+soleil+toruk]https://www.amazon.com/Lu-Aw-Navi/dp/B01956WM50/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1453923123&sr=8-3&keywords=cirque+du+soleil+toruk[/url]



msg=258956 | topic=10906 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 15:16:24 | u=73

Eltur tìTxen Si a mesìSusar tsaLì'uä a san« TOK »sìk.

Prrton


[quote=Paul Frommer (Pawl) in a blog post comment]«Tsata txe’lanit ngeyä tok wolìntxu ngal ayoeru nìngay.» & «...peyä tìrey sìltsan layu nì’ul taluna terok tsat ngal Yotswalsì.»[/quote]
«Tok» is used somewhat metaphorically: "'where' your heart stands" and "to be in someone's life".

The [url=http://masempul.org/2010/07/’ite-polaheiem/]FULL COMMENT[/url] is here.

You'll also see an expression for "being born" (i.e. "entering the world").



msg=258976 | topic=10906 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 15:45:23 | u=3051

Re: Eltur tìTxen Si a mesìSusar tsaLì'uä a san« TOK »sìk.

Goplat

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10906.msg258956#msg258956 date=1278602184]

[quote=Paul Frommer (Pawl) in a blog post comment]«Tsata txe’lanit ngeyä tok wolìntxu ngal ayoeru nìngay.» & «...peyä tìrey sìltsan layu nì’ul taluna terok tsat ngal Yotswalsì.»[/quote]
«Tok» is used somewhat metaphorically: "'where' your heart stands"
[/quote]

Since txe'lan has -it (patientive), shouldn't this be "what is in your heart"?



msg=259007 | topic=10906 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 16:10:39 | u=1550

Re: Eltur tìTxen Si a mesìSusar tsaLì'uä a san« TOK »sìk.

Taras

Nì'ul letrrtrr lawsì kxawm livatsu san Wolìntxu ngal ayoeru nìngay tsata txe'lanit ngeyä tok sìk. Ral tseyä lu san Txe'lanit tok 'uol ulte tsat ngal wolìntxu ayoer sìk.

Nìngay tsaw lamu law oer, slä irayo seiyi oe ngaru furia set tsat omum awngal nìskepek ;)



msg=259023 | topic=10906 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 16:55:02 | u=631

Re: Eltur tìTxen Si a mesìSusar tsaLì'uä a san« TOK »sìk.

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Wou, lu meuia atxantsan!
Oe ke nängew livu tutan a run keyeyti frakrr :P slä:
[quote=Pawl]… a nemfa kifkey fpìmäkìm …[/quote] [font=Garamond]Tsaw zenatse livu san fpxìmäkìm sìk kefyak?



msg=259026 | topic=10906 | board=99 | time=2010-07-08 16:58:22 | u=1550

Re: Eltur tìTxen Si a mesìSusar tsaLì'uä a san« TOK »sìk.

Taras

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=10906.msg259023#msg259023 date=1278608102]
[quote=Pawl]… a nemfa kifkey fpìmäkìm …[/quote] [font=Garamond]Tsaw zenatse livu san fpxìmäkìm sìk kefyak?
[/quote]

Srane. Oe keng ke tsamun tslivam fì'ut ;D 'Eylan Tsamsiyuan oeru srung soli nìngay a fì'uri oe seiyi poru irayo. Ulte oe lamu skxawng tsakrr ;D



msg=260397 | topic=10906 | board=99 | time=2010-07-09 21:12:17 | u=73

Re: Eltur tìTxen Si a mesìSusar tsaLì'uä a san« TOK »sìk.

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10906.msg259026#msg259026 date=1278608302]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=10906.msg259023#msg259023 date=1278608102]
[quote=Pawl]… a nemfa kifkey fpìmäkìm …[/quote] [font=Garamond]Tsaw zenatse livu san fpxìmäkìm sìk kefyak?
[/quote]

Srane. Oe keng ke tsamun tslivam fì'ut ;D 'Eylan Tsamsiyuan oeru srung soli nìngay a fì'uri oe seiyi poru irayo. Ulte oe lamu skxawng tsakrr ;D
[/quote]
«Fpi...»ti leykolatem fte slivu «fpxi...» nìeyawr.  ;)



msg=260425 | topic=10906 | board=99 | time=2010-07-09 22:05:31 | u=21

Re: Eltur tìTxen Si a mesìSusar tsaLì'uä a san« TOK »sìk.

wm.annis

This is the third place where we see Frommer using parallel phrases without any conjunction between them.

Yola krr, txana krr, ke transten. It doesn’t matter how long it takes (short time, long time, not matter). ([url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#A_Collection]1[/url])

...'uo a fpi rey'eng Eywa'evengmì 'Rrtamì tsranten nìtxan awngaru nìwotx. ...something that matters a lot to all of us for the sake of The Balance of Life on both Pandora and Earth. ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/trr-rrtaya/]2[/url])

Lora aylì'u, lora aysäfpìl.



msg=260490 | topic=10906 | board=99 | time=2010-07-10 00:31:17 | u=1550

Re: Eltur tìTxen Si a mesìSusar tsaLì'uä a san« TOK »sìk.

Taras

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10906.msg260397#msg260397 date=1278709937]
«Fpi...»ti leykolatem fte slivu «fpxi...» nìeyawr.  ;)
[/quote]

Kehe.. Kea fì'u lamu lun... Oel nìftue tswola' tsalì'ut :-\\ Oe ke tsamun fpivìl futa tsalì'umì lu san fpi sìk, talun oel tsame'a tìketengit mìkam san fpi sìk sì san fpì sìk a lamu tsalì'umì... Slä fìtxeleri oe tsap'alute si nìngay...

Tse... Fì'u lamu kea oeyä säfpìl, slä lam oer fwa tsaw lu eyawr nìngay. Set oe plltxe teri lì'u san nìeyawr sìk fu san nìyawr sìk a lam oer nì'ul sìltsan. Nìawnomum, lu awngar lì'fyavi san ngaru tìyawr sìk a lì'uhu san tìyawr. Alunta fpìl oel futa txo tì + eyawr = tìyawr a luke "e", ha zene fko pivlltxe san nìyawr sìk, kefyak? Kxawm lì'fyari awngeyä mefam san ìe sìk lu kawng, tafral tsaw slu san ì sìk nì'aw... Peut ngal fpìl fì'uteri?



msg=260578 | topic=10906 | board=99 | time=2010-07-10 03:49:13 | u=73

Re: Eltur tìTxen Si a mesìSusar tsaLì'uä a san« TOK »sìk.

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10906.msg260490#msg260490 date=1278721877]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=10906.msg260397#msg260397 date=1278709937]
«Fpi...»ti leykolatem fte slivu «fpxi...» nìeyawr.  ;)
[/quote]

Kehe.. Kea fì'u lamu lun... Oel nìftue tswola' tsalì'ut :-\\ Oe ke tsamun fpivìl futa tsalì'umì lu san fpi sìk, talun oel tsame'a tìketengit mìkam san fpi sìk sì san fpì sìk a lamu tsalì'umì... Slä fìtxeleri oe tsap'alute si nìngay...

Tse... Fì'u lamu kea oeyä säfpìl, slä lam oer fwa tsaw lu eyawr nìngay. Set oe plltxe teri lì'u san nìeyawr sìk fu san nìyawr sìk a lam oer nì'ul sìltsan. Nìawnomum, lu awngar lì'fyavi san ngaru tìyawr sìk a lì'uhu san tìyawr. Alunta fpìl oel futa txo tì + eyawr = tìyawr a luke "e", ha zene fko pivlltxe san nìyawr sìk, kefyak? Kxawm lì'fyari awngeyä mefam san ìe sìk lu kawng, tafral tsaw slu san ì sìk nì'aw... Peut ngal fpìl fì'uteri?
[/quote]

Ngaytxoa. Oe zenke fmivi pamrel sivi nìNa'vi tengkrr a serop fpi sìkangkem...  :'(

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10906.msg260490#msg260490 date=1278721877]
Kehe.. Kea fì'u lamu lun... Oel nìftue tswola' tsalì'ut :-\\ Oe ke tsamun fpivìl futa tsalì'umì lu san fpi sìk, talun oel tsame'a tìketengit mìkam san fpi sìk sì san fpì sìk a lamu tsalì'umì... Slä fìtxeleri oe tsap'alute si nìngay...
[/quote]

Nìlaw san«fpxìmäkìm»sìk lu eyawr ulte...

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=10906.msg260490#msg260490 date=1278721877]
Tse... Fì'u lamu kea oeyä säfpìl, slä lam oer fwa tsaw lu eyawr nìngay. Set oe plltxe teri lì'u san nìeyawr sìk fu san nìyawr sìk a lam oer nì'ul sìltsan. Nìawnomum, lu awngar lì'fyavi san ngaru tìyawr sìk a lì'uhu san tìyawr. Alunta fpìl oel futa txo tì + eyawr = tìyawr a luke "e", ha zene fko pivlltxe san nìyawr sìk, kefyak? Kxawm lì'fyari awngeyä mefam san ìe sìk lu kawng, tafral tsaw slu san ì sìk nì'aw... Peut ngal fpìl fì'uteri?
[/quote]

tsa'u a poltxe san« nìyawr »sìk nìteng fìtxeleri lam oer fwa lu swey.

Oe nìngay ngeyn nìhawng lerängu.



msg=278856 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-02 19:47:02 | u=3051

The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Goplat

As we know, [url=http://www.joyoffilmediting.com/?p=2272]Frommer translated the lyrics for four Na'vi songs[/url], of which two (the Weaving Song and the Hunting Song) were given in the ASG. I found the other two at [url=http://www.pandorapedia.com/ritual_music]http://www.pandorapedia.com/ritual_music[/url]; I don't think they've been mentioned anywhere on LN.org yet.

Tree Song (Funeral Song)
We are all seeds
Of the Great Tree,
Whose strength is in our legs
Like the mighty trunks,
In our arms
As sheltering branches,
In our eyes
The blue-flower
Which unfolds to the sun.
We are all seeds
Of the Great Tree
Whose song is within us.
Utralä (a)Nawm
ayrina’l(u) ayoeng,
A peyä tìtxur mì hinam awngeyä
N(a) aysangek afkeu,
Mì pun
N(a) ayvul ahusawnu,
M(ì) aynar
Na seze
A ’ong ne tsawke.
Utralä (a)Nawm
ayrina’ l(u) ayoeng,
A peyä tìrol m(ì) awnga.
Spiral Song
Music creates patterns
In the silence of the mind
As weavers do
In the physical world.
Pamtseol ngop ayrenut
Mì ronsemä tìfnu
Tengfya ngop säftxuyul
Mì hifkey.
Chorus:
We sing to See
We See to sing
We sing our way
Down the eight paths
To the center.
Awnga rol fte kivame
Kame fte rivol
Rerol tengkr kerä
Ìlä fya’o avol
Ne kxamtseng.
The songs bind the thirteen spirals
Of the solid world
To the eight spirit paths
Like the threads of aSongcord.
Aywayl yìm kifkeyä
’Ìheyut avomrr
Sìn tireafya’o avol
Na waytelemä hìng.
Chorus repeated


The latter song has our first attested usage of the adposition sìn. Also, many people have assumed that the definition of waytelem as "songcord" was a mistake and should actually be "songchord"; this gives some evidence to the contrary.



msg=278869 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-02 19:55:28 | u=5790

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Muzer

The first one was in the film! And at the end of Jake's First Flight!



msg=278993 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-03 00:05:08 | u=21

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

wm.annis

Also our first sighting if ìlä.

The third line of the chorus for the Spiral Song has a typo (in the Pandorapedia article): tengkrr, not *tengkr.

This use of tengfya answers some questions, too.



msg=279093 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-03 02:46:34 | u=430

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

TehMightyPirate

Wow, great find!



msg=279101 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-03 02:53:23 | u=3126

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

inwe_elensar

excellent!



msg=279112 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-03 03:04:51 | u=430

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=11576.msg278869#msg278869 date=1280778928]
The first one was in the film! And at the end of Jake's First Flight!
[/quote]
Wait, I don't hear it in Jake's first flight, what section of the lyrics are in there?

Do you mean in the funeral chant? Cause that's where it is (aptly named song).



msg=279130 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-03 03:26:01 | u=132

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Taronyu

Awesome find. Annis, I expect a new song PDF and a breakdown of new constructions. :P



msg=279186 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-03 05:56:47 | u=631

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Yes, excellent find – from the first appearance in the film, I was fascinated by the funeral chant and always wondered what it meant

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=11576.msg279112#msg279112 date=1280804691]
[quote author=Muzer link=topic=11576.msg278869#msg278869 date=1280778928]
The first one was in the film! And at the end of Jake's First Flight!
[/quote]
Wait, I don't hear it in Jake's first flight, what section of the lyrics are in there?

Do you mean in the funeral chant? Cause that's where it is (aptly named song).[/quote]

[font=Garamond]At 3'45 of Jake’s First Flight you can here the lines:
   Utralä (a)Nawm
   ayrina’ l(u) ayoeng, (2x)
   A peyä tìtxur mì hinam awngeyä (+ nìayoeng)

Also interesting the old spelling of fkew, an early appearance of the participle ‹us› (interesting how it was there all the time, from kerusey onward and we didn’t notice it), and a shortened form of nari which I tend to hear in Tsu’tey’s line of poru tìng nar(i) when Jake is having his pa’li training.

In the Spiral Song an old one-letter-ergative form after a diphthong (aywayl, now: aywayìl)



msg=279340 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-03 14:23:40 | u=985

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Nyx

Awesome ;D



msg=279771 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-03 23:08:07 | u=21

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

wm.annis

This is a nice piece of grammar:

  Pamtseol ngop ayrenut / Mì ronsemä tìfnu / Tengfya ngop säftxuyul / Mì hifkey.

Here we have a transitive verb with no overt direct object but the subject is still agentive/ergative.



msg=280109 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 06:35:45 | u=631

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Now I know what you meant in your NotW post about the unclarity of transitivity…
So much we still don’t understand…

But could have to do with what K. Pawl said to your Coyote story, that the object is presumed and therefor the eragtive is marked?



msg=280600 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 21:09:18 | u=0

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Tsamsiyu92

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=11576.msg279771#msg279771 date=1280876887]
This is a nice piece of grammar:

  Pamtseol ngop ayrenut / Mì ronsemä tìfnu / Tengfya ngop säftxuyul / Mì hifkey.

Here we have a transitive verb with no overt direct object but the subject is still agentive/ergative.
[/quote]
Doesn't the verb ngop in the last sentence have "ayrenu-t" as an omited direct object, which could have been omited due to being used in the last sentence?

like:
Musicians create patterns, like weavers do (create patterns).

...or am I completely wrong?



msg=281401 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 22:59:43 | u=3051

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Goplat

I just noticed something else from this: if a short plural is after an ADP+, it does not get lenited a second time, even if it still starts with a lenitable consonant. mì pun (where pun is the plural of pxun) didn't become *mì fun.



msg=281580 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-06 08:17:14 | u=0

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Tsamsiyu92

[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=11576.msg281401#msg281401 date=1281049183]
I just noticed something else from this: if a short plural is after an ADP+, it does not get lenited a second time, even if it still starts with a lenitable consonant. mì pun (where pun is the plural of pxun) didn't become *mì fun.
[/quote]
Frommer has also stated (i think) that plurals after ADP+ have to be marked with ay+, but it remains at the first lentition.



msg=281583 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-06 08:30:57 | u=631

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Plumps83

[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=11576.msg281580#msg281580 date=1281082634]
Frommer has also stated (i think) that plurals after ADP+ have to be marked with ay+, but it remains at the first lentition.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]You don’t have to. He said in his blog-post on ambiguity:

[quote=K. Pawl, 1 July]…the context will often make the meaning clear.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]and

[quote=K. Pawl, cont'd]If there is the potential for misunderstanding and the plural is intended, the full plural form is used. The lenited form without ay- is interpreted by default as singular.[/quote]

[font=Garamond]The point here being if and potential for misunderstanding ;)



msg=282688 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-08 21:19:05 | u=3552

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

tigermind

(Sorry i'm a little late; been out of town)

This is a great find!  I'm (only very mildly) peeved that i was working on a piece i was calling "Spiral Song," which i suppose i'll have to re-name...  But seriously, this is all great stuff =)



msg=282962 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-09 12:02:24 | u=1120

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

roger

"in our arms/eyes/etc" is plural. I'd expect dual.



msg=282996 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-09 13:54:36 | u=631

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Plumps83

[quote author=roger link=topic=11576.msg282962#msg282962 date=1281355344]
"in our arms/eyes/etc" is plural. I'd expect dual. [/quote]

[font=Garamond]If you expect the song being sung by the whole tribe there’s definitely more than just two of the pairs :P



msg=283108 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2010-08-09 17:46:18 | u=430

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=11576.msg282996#msg282996 date=1281362076]
[quote author=roger link=topic=11576.msg282962#msg282962 date=1281355344]
"in our arms/eyes/etc" is plural. I'd expect dual. [/quote]

[font=Garamond]If you expect the song being sung by the whole tribe there’s definitely more than just two of the pairs :P
[/quote]
Huh, that's an interesting point.



msg=484454 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2011-08-08 19:57:04 | u=8469

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Nicole

Does anyone know what their saying in "scorched earth"? ???



msg=484788 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2011-08-09 20:04:19 | u=1975

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Nicole link=topic=11576.msg484454#msg484454 date=1312833424]
Does anyone know what their saying in "scorched earth"? ???
[/quote]

random syllables.



msg=484840 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2011-08-09 23:47:59 | u=8593

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Äteya

Nice find. :)



msg=484841 | topic=11576 | board=99 | time=2011-08-10 00:03:34 | u=1975

Re: The two songs that didn't make it into the ASG

Ean Tirea

Year old.



msg=280095 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 06:02:35 | u=132

ISO Code

Taronyu

I am apply for an ISO code for Na'vi. I'd like to be able to say that the community stands behind me in wishing the Na'vi becomes officially identified.

I hope that you join me in this desire. I would like to be able to say that the petition comes not only from me, but from the Learn Na'vi community.

More information can be found here: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO,_SIL,_and_BCP_language_codes_for_constructed_languages]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO,_SIL,_and_BCP_language_codes_for_constructed_languages[/url]



msg=280102 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 06:20:34 | u=2

Re: ISO Code

snowyfox

I'm surprised we don't have one already...



msg=280112 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 06:39:20 | u=6023

Re: ISO Code

Txona Rolyu

So an ISO code is basically a code to recognize Na'vi as an official language? I'm definitely all for that!

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=280182 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 11:22:01 | u=985

Re: ISO Code

Nyx

Of course, go for it!



msg=280192 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 12:10:05 | u=5790

Re: ISO Code

Muzer

For the time being, I've been using "ni" or "nvi" for the ISO 639-1 and 639-2 codes respectively, but having an official one (even if it is only 639-2) would be nice.



msg=280359 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 16:31:49 | u=430

Re: ISO Code

TehMightyPirate

MAKTO KO!



msg=280374 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 17:02:41 | u=3051

Re: ISO Code

Goplat

Didn't Omängum Fra'uti already try this?



msg=280393 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 17:25:13 | u=6857

Re: ISO Code

kxamtxon91

It's a yes from me :D



msg=280409 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 17:41:45 | u=3648

Re: ISO Code

Anubis

as the marines say in SC(star craft)  go go go!



msg=280411 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 17:44:33 | u=132

Re: ISO Code

Taronyu

[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=11595.msg280374#msg280374 date=1280941361]
Didn't Omängum Fra'uti already try this?
[/quote]

Did he?



msg=280430 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 18:16:55 | u=985

Re: ISO Code

Nyx

There was talk of this some time ages ago, but I don't know what happened with it...



msg=280506 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 19:49:59 | u=4754

Re: ISO Code

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

If it wasn't Omägum, it was someone here that tried this.



msg=280598 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 20:59:26 | u=0

Re: ISO Code

Tsamsiyu92

Not like something's blowing up if they won't accept, worth a try.



msg=280626 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-04 22:58:15 | u=3648

Re: ISO Code

Anubis

[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=11595.msg280598#msg280598 date=1280955566]
Not like something's blowing up if they won't accept, worth a try.
[/quote]

well actually, i've set my computer to blow if it doesn't get accepted... sooooo, please get it accepted :P



msg=280672 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 01:28:47 | u=4754

Re: ISO Code

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Tsuksìm atsawl (KaPTan) link=topic=11595.msg280626#msg280626 date=1280962695]
[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=11595.msg280598#msg280598 date=1280955566]
Not like something's blowing up if they won't accept, worth a try.
[/quote]

well actually, i've set my computer to blow if it doesn't get accepted... sooooo, please get it accepted :P
[/quote]

And I thought I was taking this Na`vi stuff too seriously....



msg=280715 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 02:49:03 | u=430

Re: ISO Code

TehMightyPirate

I thought someone tried it, or at least talked about it. Maybe it was omäng?



msg=280717 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 02:51:30 | u=6713

Re: ISO Code

Peyä Tìrol

This is just about as biased a population as you could hope to find to answer that poll question :P



msg=280722 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 03:03:43 | u=5790

Re: ISO Code

Muzer

Who voted "No"? :P



msg=280725 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 03:29:00 | u=132

Re: ISO Code

Taronyu

Well, I've sent it off. Let's see how this goes. I hope I filled out the forms correctly. :)



msg=280734 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 04:14:31 | u=4325

Re: ISO Code

Nawma Ngawng

Hrh, who said no on the poll?



msg=280789 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 05:35:40 | u=54

Re: ISO Code

Tiger

Yes, I had gotten the application prepared and sent it to Frommer to finish off and send in.  He's been sitting on it awhile but I did remind him of it recently.  I figured he would be the best point man on it; though I was prepared to step in if he didn't get it done in the next month or two.  (My understanding is that the request has to be in by October to be considered next year, so there was still time.)

But that is not to say it had to come from him, and he has quite a bit on his plate.

Edit: Looks like my understanding was wrong and it would have had to be in by September 1.... But it is being delayed.

[quote=sil.org]The Candidate Review Period for the 2010 series of change requests for ISO 639-3 will be delayed for a minimum of two months. Normally the closing date for new change requests would be September 1, and the formal review period would be September 15 to December 15. We currently anticipate that the review process will instead begin in November. While new change requests may be sent to iso639-3@sil.org in the interim, response from this address may be delayed substantially. We apologize for this delay and will post an update as soon as possible on this site.[/quote]



msg=280870 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 11:05:11 | u=6562

Re: ISO Code

bommel

Yes - because it's cool to have one ;)



msg=281260 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 19:59:08 | u=4754

Re: ISO Code

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=11595.msg280722#msg280722 date=1280977423]
Who voted "No"? :P
[/quote]

Off with their tswin!!



msg=281348 | topic=11595 | board=99 | time=2010-08-05 21:27:13 | u=985

Re: ISO Code

Nyx

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=11595.msg281260#msg281260 date=1281038348]
[quote author=Muzer link=topic=11595.msg280722#msg280722 date=1280977423]
Who voted "No"? :P
[/quote]

Off with their tswin!!
[/quote]
I've got a blunt butter knife, just for that cause... :P



msg=293595 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 11:13:53 | u=2788

Fmawno

Lance R. Casey

So, after some recent correspondence with Karyu Pawl some things have surfaced:


  • When I said something that confused him, he responded with rutxe law sivi.

  • Idiomatic uses of ngari txe'lan mawey livu for "don't worry (about it)", and tokx eo tokx for "face to face, in person".

  • Several instances of tsakrr acting as a general-purpose "then" after txo.

  • Tun observed in the wild, with the meaning "red".

  • I used tìsung in place of "P.S." at the end of a message, and got the same thing nì'eyng, so I guess we can consider both the meaning ("addition") and the use blessed.

  • Another construction which certain people ought to find interesting: tsat ngal new tsat tsun niväk.

  • Vocabulary:

    • naer: ’Uo a tsun fko niväk. Fkol yom syuvet, näk naerit.

    • atxkxerel: used like "map" (stress not indicated).

    • nìtengfya: This intrigued me for a moment. The sentence in question was oel horenit Ìnglìsìyä solar, nìtengfya fko pamrel sivi san [...], following up on a gaffe. This is an adverb, to be contrasted with tengfya, which is a conjunction.



  • And, finally, the answer to a long-standing grammatical question:
    [quote=oe]mì hivea trr (<- lì'ul alu mì leykatem lì'ut ahay fìfya krr a tsalì'u ke lu tstxolì'u srak?)[/quote]
    [quote=K. Pawl]Srane, lì'ul alu mì frakrr leykatem lì'ut ahay tsafya—fwa livu tstxolì’u, livu lahea fnelì’u ke tsranten.[/quote]
    ...with some more asyndeton to ogle at. ;)




msg=293602 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 11:21:05 | u=5958

Re: Fmawno

MIPP

I was just looking for a word for P.S. HRH

Irayo!



msg=293714 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 13:47:34 | u=6713

Re: Fmawno

Peyä Tìrol

Naer appears to be some sort of drink?

Fra'uri alahe irayo seiyi... tsaw 'uoru lam si. :)



msg=293719 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 13:56:32 | u=6892

Re: Fmawno

Sireayä mokri

Nìngay txantsana ayfmawn leiu! Irayo!



msg=293722 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 14:07:01 | u=132

Re: Fmawno

Taronyu

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12101.msg293595#msg293595 date=1282648433]
  • atxkxerel: used like "map" (stress not indicated).
[/quote]

It's a compound. I highly, highly suspect atxkxerel, with both of them stressed.

This is all great.



msg=293742 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 14:34:31 | u=631

Re: Fmawno

Plumps83

[font=Garamond]Indeed, very interesting…

I like the idiomatic expressions.

But mì+ only triggers lenition when pre-positional, right?

tsat ngal new tsat tsun niväk. => you want that that (you) can drink? ???

I don’t quite get your meaning of:
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12101.msg293595#msg293595 date=1282648433]
  • Tun observed in the wild, with the meaning "red".
[/quote]



msg=293749 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 14:41:28 | u=132

Re: Fmawno

Taronyu

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=12101.msg293742#msg293742 date=1282660471]
tsat ngal new tsat tsun niväk. => you want that that (you) can drink? ???
[/quote]

I think it's You want that you can drink that.



msg=293760 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 14:53:55 | u=3552

Re: Fmawno

tigermind

Okay, help the Na'vi lightweight, rutxe  :-[  So, the verdict is adpositions that cause lenition cause lenition to whatever word comes next, kefyak?



msg=293774 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 15:10:27 | u=6713

Re: Fmawno

Peyä Tìrol

Yes, I think that was the conclusion when mì hivea trr was deemed correct.



msg=293780 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 15:20:06 | u=3552

Re: Fmawno

tigermind

Okay, good, so i'm not a complete skxawng.  This is all exciting stuff =)



msg=293830 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 16:37:17 | u=54

Re: Fmawno

Tiger

Somehow "tìsung" gives me more of an "additionally..." vibe to it than a "p.s." vibe, even though it isn't "nìsung".



msg=293834 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 17:04:45 | u=132

Re: Fmawno

Taronyu

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=12101.msg293830#msg293830 date=1282667837]
Somehow "tìsung" gives me more of an "additionally..." vibe to it than a "p.s." vibe, even though it isn't "nìsung".
[/quote]

Same. Although PS sort of just meant that...



msg=293840 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 17:16:36 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12101.msg293595#msg293595 date=1282648433]

  • And, finally, the answer to a long-standing grammatical question:
    [quote=oe]mì hivea trr (<- lì'ul alu mì leykatem lì'ut ahay fìfya krr a tsalì'u ke lu tstxolì'u srak?)[/quote]
    [quote=K. Pawl]Srane, lì'ul alu mì frakrr leykatem lì'ut ahay tsafya—fwa livu tstxolì’u, livu lahea fnelì’u ke tsranten.[/quote]
    ...with some more asyndeton to ogle at. ;)


[/quote]

Irayo nìngay! Lam oer fwa fì'u tsranten frato :)



msg=293851 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 17:29:00 | u=2788

Re: Fmawno

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Payä Tìrol link=topic=12101.msg293714#msg293714 date=1282657654]
Naer appears to be some sort of drink?
[/quote]

Just "drink" as a general concept, parallel to "food".

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=12101.msg293742#msg293742 date=1282660471]
[font=Garamond]But mì+ only triggers lenition when pre-positional, right?[/quote]

Yes:

[quote=Language Log]Certain adpositions, when in pre-nominal position, trigger lenition.[/quote]

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=12101.msg293742#msg293742 date=1282660471]
[font=Garamond]I don’t quite get your meaning of:
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12101.msg293595#msg293595 date=1282648433]
  • Tun observed in the wild, with the meaning "red".
[/quote]
[/quote]

There was a bunch of color words which were known, but "put on hold" pending review of the underlying system. I assume tun has now joined the ranks of vetted ones, since Frommer used it freely.

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=12101.msg293749#msg293749 date=1282660888]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=12101.msg293742#msg293742 date=1282660471]
[font=Garamond]tsat ngal new tsat tsun niväk. => you want that that (you) can drink? ???

[/quote]

I think it's You want that you can drink that.
[/quote]

Yeah, it was a fancy way of saying, "drink what you want". :)



msg=293865 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 18:02:34 | u=73

Re: Fmawno

Prrton

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12101.msg293851#msg293851 date=1282670940]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=12101.msg293742#msg293742 date=1282660471]
[font=Garamond]I don’t quite get your meaning of:
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12101.msg293595#msg293595 date=1282648433]
  • Tun observed in the wild, with the meaning "red".
[/quote]
[/quote]

There was a bunch of color words which were known, but "put on hold" pending review of the underlying system. I assume tun has now joined the ranks of vetted ones, since Frommer used it freely.

[/quote]

Rutxe maweypivey nìyol, ma oeyä ayeylan. Clarification on the colors should be coming very very soon. I will not be surprised at all if Na'vi «tun» falls in our spectrum of "red". Clearly, based on this, it will.

This is all fascinating and this means (to me) that pre-"noun cluster" adpositions can behave very much like English prepositions. I do think this makes Na'vi a bit more "grammatically approachable", especially for Indo-European speakers.

The next question then becomes what is an adposition's POST noun relationship to a "noun cluster" or "complex noun". Must it be:

 «vrrtep a rel arusikx lolam»

     or does Na'vi tolerate

 «vrrtep a rel arusikx lolam»

      as well?

If you don't like the sawtute influenced example:

 «ikran a ramftu alusìng holum»

     vs.

 «ikran a ram alusìngftu holum»



msg=293876 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 18:16:35 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

Fpìl oel futa zene livu ramftu alusìngrel arusikx. Ngian oe mllte furia zene fko pivawm Pawlur fìtxeleteri nìngay. Sìltsana tìpawm :)



msg=293966 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 19:49:10 | u=73

Re: Fmawno

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12101.msg293876#msg293876 date=1282673795]
Fpìl oel futa zene livu ramftu alusìngrel arusikx. Ngian oe mllte furia zene fko pivawm Pawlur fìtxeleteri nìngay. Sìltsana tìpawm :)
[/quote]

Nìlaw fìfya tsun nivong ayhorenìlä lelì'fya nìlor nìpxi slä txo fìtìkenong alu « Mì sawnatepa tsray larmu tìtxuro astxong. » lu eyawr, kop tsun livu hek a sìtsun alahe nìpxay, tì'efumì oeyä.

Fìtìkenongìri oel kop fpìl futa swey lu na fwa slivu « Tawnatepa tsraymì larmu tìtxuro astxong. »




msg=293988 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 20:16:04 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

Tse.. Fìmesìkenong lam oer sìltsan eyawrsì nìwotx. Fu oe ke tslolam.. ftxey nga plltxe lahea sìkenongteri a hek fuke?



msg=294025 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 21:11:28 | u=73

Re: Fmawno

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12101.msg293988#msg293988 date=1282680964]
Tse.. Fìmesìkenong lam oer sìltsan eyawrsì nìwotx. Fu oe ke tslolam.. ftxey nga plltxe lahea sìkenongteri a hek fuke?
[/quote]

Nìfay’o a plltxe txe’lanta, oeri, fìtìkenong alu « Mì sawnatepa tsray... » (wä safya’o alu «tawnatepa tsraymì... ») kop hek nì’it. Slä tsun tslivam luke tìngäzìk ulte fpìl futa tsun fìfya pivlltxe fko (nìwin txivula eyawra aylì'fyavit apawnlltxe ìlä ayhoren lelì’fya mì ronsem fkeyä) nìftue nì’ul.

Lahea tsaysìkenong a sa’uteri oe poltxe lu letsunslua tsayrenu a kxawm tsatsun ’ivong txo tivung fkol futa aylì’ul na mì, ro, ìlä, sre, sì wä ke ’ampi kxetseti tstxolì’uä seyä nìtokx nìyey. Slä, skxakep teri fwa zene livok asim na « kelkumì » luke hì’ia tsenge apiak kaw’it a tsakorenur lepamrel lu tìkan a fmi wivìntxu futa renu alu *«ayram alusìngro» ke tsun tivam, kefyak?

Zene fko pivawm Karyur.  ;)



msg=294230 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-25 07:39:55 | u=54

Re: Fmawno

Tiger

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=12101.msg293834#msg293834 date=1282669485]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=12101.msg293830#msg293830 date=1282667837]
Somehow "tìsung" gives me more of an "additionally..." vibe to it than a "p.s." vibe, even though it isn't "nìsung".
[/quote]

Same. Although PS sort of just meant that...
[/quote]I'd been using m.'u. for maw 'upxare, though I suppose that is a bit of a calque.



msg=294529 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-25 17:09:23 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

Tse.. lolu oer säfpìl alahe. Nìawnomum, lì'fyaviri alu mì ayhelku zene fko pivlltxe san mayhelku. Slä txo fko new pivlltxe san mì ayoeyä kelku sìk, zene fì'u livu teng srak? Zene fko pivlltxe san mayoeyä kelku sìk srak?



msg=294545 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-25 17:27:31 | u=21

Re: Fmawno

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12101.msg294529#msg294529 date=1282756163]Slä txo fko new pivlltxe san mì ayoeyä kelku sìk, zene fì'u livu teng srak? Zene fko pivlltxe san mayoeyä kelku sìk srak?[/quote]

Srane, oel fpìl fìfya.  Awgnal omum futa lì'u alu tenga korenit lek, hufwa lu fnelì'u alahe.  Pelun lì'u alu lu keteng?  Fì'u nì'aw koren lu pamä a fì'ut fpìl oel.



msg=294548 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-25 17:33:19 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

Lu fì'u koren lepam nì'aw fu zene fko pamrel sivi nìtengfya? Nìawnomum, fì + ay = faytsa + ay = tsay ulte pamrel si fko fìfya frakrr. Ha tsunslu fwa zene fko pamrel sivi nìfya'o alu mayhilvan tup fìfya alu mì ayhìlvan srak?



msg=294550 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-25 17:38:57 | u=2788

Re: Fmawno

Lance R. Casey

Pamrel ke latem:

[quote=Pawl](Note: Although the writing doesn’t change, the mì + ay- combination is pronounced may. So mì ayhilvan is pronounced as if it were mayhilvan. Other examples of this process: nìayoeng ‘like us, as we do’ is pronounced nayweng; aynantang sì ayriti ‘viperwolves and stingbats’ is pronounced aynantang sayriti.)[/quote]
(ta [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/07/thoughts-on-ambiguity/]Na'viteri[/url])



msg=294555 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-25 17:47:41 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

Irayo :) Eltu ke sami.. nìngay oel molunge fìkorenit alu teri tìpuslltxe tsatsengeta, slä fìlì'fyavir eltur ke soli.. ngaytxoa. Set lu law nìwotx :)



msg=294822 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-26 00:54:29 | u=21

Re: Fmawno

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12101.msg293865#msg293865 date=1282672954]If you don't like the sawtute influenced example:

 «ikran a ramftu alusìng holum»

     vs.

 «ikran a ram alusìngftu holum» [/quote]

Since genitives are often quite like adjectives in terms of their syntax, I think we can say that enclitic adpositions will always attach to their noun.  From [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#April_6_Miscellany]the Canon[/url], we get the idiom for "forever," tì'i'avay krrä, not *tì'i'a krrävay.



msg=294824 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-26 01:05:48 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12101.msg294822#msg294822 date=1282784069]
Since genitives are often quite like adjectives in terms of their syntax, I think we can say that enclitic adpositions will always attach to their noun.  From [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#April_6_Miscellany]the Canon[/url], we get the idiom for "forever," tì'i'avay krrä, not *tì'i'a krrävay.
[/quote]

And tì'efumì oeyä ;)



msg=295135 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-26 15:23:26 | u=1975

Re: Fmawno

Ean Tirea

i just got it:

tsat ngal new tsat tsun niväk...maybe a comma would have made it click earlier...

tsat ngal new, tsat (nga) tsun niväk
what you want, that you can drink.

</lame post concerning old issue in topic>

eltur tìtxen si all of this stuff.

and ayram alusìngftu just does NOT seem right to me. ayramftu alusìng does tho. did he actually say that it was right to put adp on the end of alusìng? O,O



msg=295142 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-08-26 15:42:41 | u=6892

Re: Fmawno

Sireayä mokri

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=12101.msg295135#msg295135 date=1282836206]
and ayram alusìngftu just does NOT seem right to me. ayramftu alusìng does tho.
[/quote]

Mllte oe. Awngar lu pxaya lì'fyavi a wìntxu tsengit a lì'u alu *adp* zene tivok.



msg=300736 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 18:56:47 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

[quote=K. Pawl]Srane, lì'ul alu mì frakrr leykatem lì'ut ahay tsafya—fwa livu tstxolì’u, livu lahea fnelì’u ke tsranten.[/quote]

If always changes the next word, does it mean what with nouns in trial lenition also happens? Is this right?

pxehelkumì pehelku

So, I can see here ambiguity: is it "in three houses" or question "in which house"?
No, I understood. If this is right, that should be

pxehelkumì pehelku
pehelkumì fehelku

There is no ambiguity :)



msg=300738 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 19:01:13 | u=21

Re: Fmawno

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12101.msg300736#msg300736 date=1283453807]pxehelkumì pehelku

So, I can see here ambiguity: is it "in three houses" or question "in which house"?
[/quote]

But we know always causes lenition in the following word.  "In which house" would be mì fehelku.  If that causes anxiety, mì helkupe is always an option.



msg=300739 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 19:03:33 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

Yeah, I just understood it :) But what about trial?



msg=300743 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 19:08:27 | u=21

Re: Fmawno

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12101.msg300739#msg300739 date=1283454213]But what about trial?[/quote]

Mì pehelku is correct for "in three rivers."  Or am I misunderstanding your question?



msg=300745 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 19:13:42 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

Thanks :)

P.S. Mì pehelku is correct for "in three houses." ;)



msg=300748 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 19:15:54 | u=21

Re: Fmawno

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12101.msg300745#msg300745 date=1283454822]
Thanks :)

P.S. Mì pehelku is correct for "in three houses." ;)
[/quote]

D'oh!  Yes.  Not sure why I confused kelku and kilvan.



msg=300749 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 19:19:11 | u=1550

Re: Fmawno

Taras

Maybe bacause here was examples with kilvan, but I used kelku ;)



msg=300979 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 23:13:33 | u=73

Re: Fmawno

Prrton

[quote author=тиреа аеан link=topic=12101.msg295135#msg295135 date=1282836206]
did he actually say that it was right to put adp on the end of alusìng? O,O
[/quote]

Not to my knowledge. I agree that it seems very weird to have an adposition come after a post-noun adjective, but it also seems very weird to me that it can be separated from its noun when the order is reversed. I hear it as an "English accent" affected by the way prepositions behave in my native language. That's all.

It is very CONVENIENT for us to be able to separate it when it comes before, but it just doesn't seem very 'Na'vi' to me.

How far does it go?

  Pxefol yolom wutsoti lekxamtrr hanua sì sevina 'evengeyä kelku a tok pxawpati na'rìngä apxa?

That's easy enough for me understand once I figure out «hanua» (from «kanu»), but the grammar is just about 100% English in terms of word order.

I would not mind if we had a rule that FORCED us to encliticize «-mì» there after «kelku». THAT would seem more natively 'Na'vi' to me.

The LOGIC of it being OK before and not after just seems missing to me (and influenced by Indo-European). It's an observation. Not a complaint, though.




msg=300994 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 23:39:55 | u=21

Re: Fmawno

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12101.msg300979#msg300979 date=1283469213]I would not mind if we had a rule that FORCED us to encliticize «-mì» there after «kelku». THAT would seem more natively 'Na'vi' to me.[/quote]

Ma Prrton, no one on this green Earth has native Na'vi intuitions at this point. :)  To say nothing of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity]retconning[/url] Frommer would have to do.

Restrictions on enclitic adpositions make sense if we think of them as proto- or almost-but-not-yet case endings.  Even if they're not exactly cases, I can easily see free prepositions working at the noun phrase level, while enclitic adpositions stick to the noun under pressure from the behavior of the cases.  Analogy is a powerful force in the history of a language.



msg=301004 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-03 00:01:54 | u=73

Re: Fmawno

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12101.msg300994#msg300994 date=1283470795]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12101.msg300979#msg300979 date=1283469213]I would not mind if we had a rule that FORCED us to encliticize «-mì» there after «kelku». THAT would seem more natively 'Na'vi' to me.[/quote]

Ma Prrton, no one on this green Earth has native Na'vi intuitions at this point. :)  To say nothing of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity]retconning[/url] Frommer would have to do.

Restrictions on enclitic adpositions make sense if we think of them as proto- or almost-but-not-yet case endings.  Even if they're not exactly cases, I can easily see free prepositions working at the noun phrase level, while enclitic adpositions stick to the noun under pressure from the behavior of the cases.  Analogy is a powerful force in the history of a language.
[/quote]

But what about what we have so far, ma Wm., makes the encliticized post-positions the innovation? Couldn't a complex case system be 'deteriorating' (morphing) into "adpositions"? It's happened before.

Forgive my use of the term "natively". Please replace with "idiomatically".

I'll look forward to the/an answer from the source at some point in the future.  ;)

I can see the "reality" being all kinds of different things, but regardless of the backstory, it still SEEMS/FEELS English-y to me that they might travel so far away from their nouns. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_particles]The particles of Japanese[/url] (not really cases, not really not cases in some cases) are probably also influencing my feelings. They remain my feelings, nonetheless.




msg=301014 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-03 00:20:34 | u=21

Re: Fmawno

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12101.msg301004#msg301004 date=1283472114]But what about what we have so far, ma Wm., makes the encliticized post-positions the innovation. Couldn't a complex case system be 'deteriorating' (morphing) into "adpositions"? It's happened before.[/quote]

In what languages?  Case endings tend to evaporate away, if anything, not become unmoored and float around.  Postpostion -> case ending is much, much more common.

[quote]I can see the "reality" being all kinds of different things, but regardless of the backstory, it still SEEMS/FEELS English-y to me that they might travel so far away from their nouns.[/quote]

Aah, but they don't go with nouns — they go with the noun phrase, which can be a much bigger thing.  In Japanese, the relationals will always come after the noun because any modifiers in a noun phrase will come before the noun.



msg=301062 | topic=12101 | board=99 | time=2010-09-03 01:05:17 | u=73

Re: Fmawno

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12101.msg301014#msg301014 date=1283473234]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12101.msg301004#msg301004 date=1283472114]But what about what we have so far, ma Wm., makes the encliticized post-positions the innovation. Couldn't a complex case system be 'deteriorating' (morphing) into "adpositions"? It's happened before.[/quote]

In what languages?  Case endings tend to evaporate away, if anything, not become unmoored and float around.  Postpostion -> case ending is much, much more common.[/quote]

True they don't float around and in the (English) example I was thinking of they didn't float around, they did "evaporate" and were replaced by other (new) words.

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12101.msg301014#msg301014 date=1283473234]
[quote]I can see the "reality" being all kinds of different things, but regardless of the backstory, it still SEEMS/FEELS English-y to me that they might travel so far away from their nouns.[/quote]

Aah, but they don't go with nouns — they go with the noun phrase, which can be a much bigger thing.  In Japanese, the relationals will always come after the noun because any modifiers in a noun phrase will come before the noun.
[/quote]

Correct. Japanese noun modifiers do only come before the nouns. I only gave Japanese as an example of why I feel the way I do about the "floating" adpositions in Na'vi. But, it is precisely because they modify the noun phrase that the question arises as to the possibility of their floating in the other direction... past the 'tail' of «ayram alusìng». That question is begged also by the question "How does (may) one say 'at that big gray floating mountain where my ikran died'"?

  ro sawla sì ngula sì tolerkup tsatseng(ro) ikran oeyä a [tsaram alusìng] ?

  tsawla sì ngula [tsaramro alusìng] (sì?) a tolerkup ro satseng ikran oeyä ?

  tsawl(a) ngulsìa [tsaramro alusìng] a tolerkup ro satseng ikran oeyä ?

How "closely attached" is that «alusìng» to «ram» and how much does it "tie up and paralyze" the space following the noun phrase?

I don't know. That's where my question comes from. And because we have -a--influenced "stacking constraints" (shall we call them?), I do feel it's convenient to be able to have the adpositions "float" toward the front of the noun phrases.

Of course, in a theoretical construct that "convenience" could have evolved over many many generations, but your proposal that the case marking "pull" encliticizes the adpositions makes a great deal of sense.



msg=299381 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 18:09:35 | u=73

Makto zong!

Prrton


[quote=Mail from Paul Frommer to Prrton]

    [font=Georgia]Makto zong. (That’s the quick, colloquial version of Mivakto nìzawnong., ‘take care.’, ‘travel safely.’)

[/quote]

Based on the context of the way it was used in the note to me, «Makto zong.» functions very much like a general parting greeting in the semantic range of just "Take care."

I asked him to explain the cultural context on his blog when he gets a chance to do that.



msg=299385 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 18:12:55 | u=1550

Re: Makto zong!

Taras

Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmukan :)

Slä txo oe new pilvlltxe teri tìsop letìran? Txo tuteo ke makto, ki tìran fa peyä mehinam, tsun fko pivlltxe san Tìran zong sìk fu san Tivìran nìzawnong sìk?



msg=299396 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 18:21:27 | u=73

Re: Makto zong!

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12242.msg299385#msg299385 date=1283278375]
Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmukan :)

Slä txo oe new pilvlltxe teri tìsop letìran? Txo tuteo ke makto, ki tìran fa peyä mehinam, tsun fko pivlltxe san Tìran zong sìk fu san Tivìran nìzawnong sìk?
[/quote]

Fu skxakep tsun sivar na fwa lì'fyavi alu Sivop nìzawnong, kefyak?

Oel fpìl futa zene fko pivawm tsakrr a pol tivìng vurit a'änsyem fa pìlok peyä. Zusawkrr, zusawkrr...

Etrìpa tsaskxomìri, oe kop pereiey nìprrte'.




msg=299397 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 18:23:22 | u=1550

Re: Makto zong!

Taras

Wou! Pawlìl ngerop vurit amip srak? Tsaw lu sìltsana fmawn ;) Tam, oe mllte ngahu furia zene fko pivey :)



msg=299404 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 18:32:56 | u=6023

Re: Makto zong!

Txona Rolyu

San makto zong sìk srak? Tsa'u prrte' lu oeru :) Oe zene tsa'ut ziverok. Ulte tewti! Ayvur amip nì'ul ta Karyu Pawl? Txantsan! Ke tsun pivey oe. Peyä ayvur leiu tskxekeng atxantsan fpi oeyä numtseng Tskxekengvi NgayNumeyä!

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=299410 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 18:35:30 | u=73

Re: Makto zong!

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12242.msg299397#msg299397 date=1283279002]
Wou! Pawlìl ngerop vurit amip srak? Tsaw lu sìltsana fmawn ;) Tam, oe mllte ngahu furia zene fko pivey :)
[/quote]

Tsaral a lu uo tsalì'u alu «vur» lu tsavur a oeyktìng teri lì'utsim fìlì'fyaviyä sì fya'o a fkol tsat sar nì'aw, ma smuk.  :-\\

Zenke fko tivung futa fkeyä txe'lan spivä fìtxan nìkxayl!  ;)



msg=299414 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-08-31 18:41:41 | u=6023

Re: Makto zong!

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12242.msg299410#msg299410 date=1283279730]
Tsaral a lu uo tsalì'u alu «vur» lu tsavur a oeyktìng teri lì'utsim fìlì'fyaviyä sì fya'o a fkol tsat sar nì'aw, ma smuk.  :-\\

Zenke fko tivung futa fkeyä txe'lan spivä fìtxan nìkxayl!  ;)
[/quote]

Pivey....Ngal perlltxe futa Karyu Pawl ke pamrel seri ayvur amip srak?

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=299720 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 08:54:33 | u=0

Re: Makto zong!

Tsamsiyu92

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12242.msg299385#msg299385 date=1283278375]
Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmukan :)

Slä txo oe new pilvlltxe teri tìsop letìran? Txo tuteo ke makto, ki tìran fa peyä mehinam, tsun fko pivlltxe san Tìran zong sìk fu san Tivìran nìzawnong sìk?
[/quote]

Kxawm tsa'u lu fì'u a nì'ìnglìsì fko syaw *idiomatic*.



msg=300349 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 04:01:56 | u=73

Re: Makto zong!

Prrton

[quote author=Txonä Rolyu link=topic=12242.msg299414#msg299414 date=1283280101]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12242.msg299410#msg299410 date=1283279730]
Tsaral a lu uo tsalì'u alu «vur» lu tsavur a oeyktìng teri lì'utsim fìlì'fyaviyä sì fya'o a fkol tsat sar nì'aw, ma smuk.  :-\\

Zenke fko tivung futa fkeyä txe'lan spivä fìtxan nìkxayl!  ;)
[/quote]

Pivey....Ngal perlltxe futa Karyu Pawl ke pamrel seri ayvur amip srak?

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

Nìlaw pol ngiyevop ayvurit amip, slä zenke fko fpivìl futa ye’rìn layu ayoengar pota ’uo nìpxi natkenong vur Txewìyä. Fa fwa solar tsalì’uti alu «vur» oel karman ralit alu «tìoeyktìng» a teri tsakrr Na’vil täftxu tsalì’fyavit alu «Makto zong» nemfa tìpusängkxo letrrtrr.[desc=Of course he will create new stories, but we shouldn’t think that we’ll have something from him that’s especially like Txewì’s tale. By using the term “story” I intended the meaning “explanation” re: the context of the Na’vi using the phrase “Makto zong” in everyday conversation.]*[/desc]

Ngaytxoa!




msg=300428 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-09-02 08:22:20 | u=6023

Re: Makto zong!

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12242.msg300349#msg300349 date=1283400116]
Nìlaw pol ngiyevop ayvurit amip, slä zenke fko fpivìl futa ye’rìn layu ayoengar pota ’uo nìpxi natkenong vur Txewìyä. Fa fwa solar tsalì’uti alu «vur» oel karman ralit alu «tìoeyktìng» a teri tsakrr Na’vil täftxu tsalì’fyavit alu «Makto zong» nemfa tìpusängkxo letrrtrr.[desc=Of course he will create new stories, but we shouldn’t think that we’ll have something from him that’s especially like Txewì’s tale. By using the term “story” I intended the meaning “explanation” re: the context of the Na’vi using the phrase “Makto zong” in everyday conversation.]*[/desc]

Ngaytxoa!


[/quote]

Ahh, tslivam set ulte txoa lu ngaru ma Prrton :) Oe tslolam nìkeyawr srekrr.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=344182 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-11-07 03:06:53 | u=7237

Re: Makto zong!

Meynari

oh, cool! I was looking for a short and efficient, but original way of saying kìyevame. I found it.  ;D



msg=344246 | topic=12242 | board=99 | time=2010-11-07 09:28:44 | u=195

Re: Makto zong!

esoanem

[quote author=Meynari link=topic=12242.msg344182#msg344182 date=1289099213]
oh, cool! I was looking for a short and efficient, but original way of saying kìyevame. I found it.  ;D
[/quote]

This thread is over two months old, if you don't have anything new to add, please do not necro it.



msg=299949 | topic=12265 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 16:27:45 | u=3552

a few small things

tigermind

Kaltxì, ma eylan leNa'vi.  I recently received a brief message from Karyu Pawl, and though i'm not sure if any of this is news to you, it was to me.  Fìlì'fyaviru tìng nari.

[quote=Karyu Pawl]Furia ngal fì'upxaret oeru fpole' lu oe nitram nìtxan! Ngaytxoa, ngari narmew txana krr pamrel sivi, slä...[/quote]

Okay, so the two things i got out of this that surprised me:

1)  Furia... lu oe nitram

I had been under the impression that nitram was always paired with the verb 'efu, but obviously that's not the case.

2)  ...narmew txana krr pamrel sivi

First of all, i'm stoked whenever i see a verb with a tense infix, because every added example improves my understanding of how Na'vi verbs work.  But secondly, this use of txana krr:  I had been wondering how we would talk about time durations like this in Na'vi—as in this case, wanting to do something "for a long time."  I had been wondering if there were a preferred adposition for this sort of thing, but apparently it's simpler than that.

Ha nìmun, kxawm ayngaru tsayu ke lu mip, slä fìfya lu oer.



msg=300016 | topic=12265 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 17:54:50 | u=2788

Re: a few small things

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=12265.msg299949#msg299949 date=1283358465]
I had been under the impression that nitram was always paired with the verb 'efu, but obviously that's not the case.
[/quote]
Indeed! [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#A_Collection]Here[/url]'s the relevant quote:

[quote=K. Pawl]Lefpom is nfp (not for people)—use it for “happy story,” “joyous occasion,” etc. For people: nitram. For internal states (happy, sad, hot, cold, hungry, thirsty, . . .) use ’efu + ADJ, as in Eng. “I feel cold.”[/quote]
So either he's changed his mind, that initial statement was not as firm as it seemed, or this new use was a gaffe. All three have occurred before.

[quote author=tigermind link=topic=12265.msg299949#msg299949 date=1283358465]
But secondly, this use of txana krr:  I had been wondering how we would talk about time durations like this in Na'vi—as in this case, wanting to do something "for a long time."  I had been wondering if there were a preferred adposition for this sort of thing, but apparently it's simpler than that.[/quote]
Interesting! And this also ties in with Norm's line from the movie.



msg=300031 | topic=12265 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 18:08:33 | u=6713

Re: a few small things

Peyä Tìrol

So the "for" just disappears? That's interesting.



msg=300142 | topic=12265 | board=99 | time=2010-09-01 21:41:56 | u=3552

Re: a few small things

tigermind

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12265.msg300016#msg300016 date=1283363690]So either he's changed his mind, that initial statement was not as firm as it seemed, or this new use was a gaffe. All three have occurred before.[/quote]

Tam.  I hope i'm not being a pain in the arse, but i e-mailed him to check if that was a gaff.  Will report back to you all when i hear.



msg=305279 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-08 14:46:37 | u=2788

GRID tidbits

Lance R. Casey

From Frommer's speech at [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/press/paul-frommer-at-grid-2010/]GRID 2010[/url]:

Kxetse sì mikyun kop plltxe: wm.annis's [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/idiomatic-expressions/msg170902/#msg170902]idiom[/url] made the cut!
tìftxavang: "passion"

I could also mention a minor detail from the preceding meeting which he spoke of (hey, indirect mention!), namely that naer is pluralizable ("beverages"), whereas syuve is not. Hardly surprising, but anyway.



msg=305319 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-08 16:01:51 | u=132

Re: GRID tidbits

Taronyu

Good catches. Added to the dict.

I do like that idiom...

What other collective nouns do we have? I haven't been noting them in my dictionary, but I really ought to.



msg=305344 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-08 16:40:03 | u=5790

Re: GRID tidbits

Muzer

All I can think of for possible collective nouns offhand is "Na'vi" (confirmed), "olo'" (would make sense, if you CAN use it to refer to every individual in a clan), "pongu" and its compounds (like olo', if it can be used to address each individual, it will be collective).



msg=305585 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-08 20:54:57 | u=3552

Re: GRID tidbits

tigermind

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=12389.msg305344#msg305344 date=1283964003]
All I can think of for possible collective nouns offhand is "Na'vi" (confirmed), "olo'" (would make sense, if you CAN use it to refer to every individual in a clan), "pongu" and its compounds (like olo', if it can be used to address each individual, it will be collective).
[/quote]

I would expect all the words derived from pongu also are collective; and if syuve is, then tsngan, vey, fkxen, and/or tsyosyu all might be as well.



msg=306146 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 17:20:40 | u=2909

Re: GRID tidbits

Kayrìlion

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=12389.msg305319#msg305319 date=1283961711]
Good catches. Added to the dict.

I do like that idiom...

What other collective nouns do we have? I haven't been noting them in my dictionary, but I really ought to.
[/quote]

By collective nouns, do you also mean groups of people that would be addressed with the -ya vocative? Or just things like "bread" and "money" in English that don't have plural forms. It might be nice to note both types of words.

Or actually...would Na'vi even treat them differently at all? Say you're speaking poetically and directly addressing syuve as though you're talking to it. Since "food" is a collective term, would we translate "You are delicious, O food!" as "Nga lu ftxìlor, ma syuve!" or "Nga lu ftxìlor, syuveya!" ?

I know it's sort of a silly technicality, but this might be something to think about.

Kayrìlien



msg=306156 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 17:30:18 | u=195

Re: GRID tidbits

esoanem

What you're describing ma kayrìlien is the difference between collective nouns and uncountable nouns (also known as mass nouns).

If a noun has no plural form then it is uncountable but not necessarily collective, it would only be collective if it refers to a group of other nouns. Bread and bread are uncountable but not collective; group, herd, clan etc. are collective nouns but are countable.

Assuming the rules are exactly as they have been explained and there is no inaccuracy in that explanation, syuve etc. which do not take the plural would not take -ya and would instead have to take ma.



msg=308467 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-12 21:07:56 | u=3552

Re: GRID tidbits

tigermind

I thought of another one:  If fmawn is used like "news" in English, then it's uncountable also.



msg=308607 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-12 22:44:07 | u=985

Re: GRID tidbits

Nyx

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12389.msg308467#msg308467 date=1284325676]
I thought of another one:  If fmawn is used like "news" in English, then it's uncountable also.
[/quote]
If it works like it does in English, yeah, but there are languages where "news" is countable.



msg=308749 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-13 02:09:37 | u=3552

Re: GRID tidbits

tigermind

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=12389.msg308607#msg308607 date=1284331447]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12389.msg308467#msg308467 date=1284325676]
I thought of another one:  If fmawn is used like "news" in English, then it's uncountable also.
[/quote]
If it works like it does in English, yeah, but there are languages where "news" is countable.
[/quote]

Personally, i hope it is countable.  And conversely, i'd like some not-countable things in Na'vi that would make us English-speakers scratch our heads.  I love a good challenge—stretches the brain =)



msg=311593 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 03:33:25 | u=73

Re: GRID tidbits

Prrton


Here is a somewhat tricky one:

  moss    mosses 
================================
  prrwll    ayfneprrwill 


Moss in and of itself is al collective noun, but when made plural in English it carries the meaning "different KINDS of moss".

Milk is the same.

  Example: "Three milks were available and fortunately I was allergic to only one."

Cheese, of course, follows.

  Example: "Let's have a few cheeses for the dessert course."

  - water(s) Ambiguous. "3 waters" could mean 3 types or 3 glasses of water.
  - chocolate(s) Ambiguous. "3 chocolates" could mean 3 types or 3 pieces.
  - ice cream(s) Can suffer the same ambiguity of chocolate and water.




msg=311600 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 04:14:37 | u=3552

Re: GRID tidbits

tigermind

Tewti, ma Prrton!  Frakrr leiu ngaru sìlronsema aysäfpìl apxay fìtxan.

And you're right, English is full of these theoretically uncountable words that are sometimes, erm, countable. 

There are lots of words like people, fish, grass... that in plural form mean "different kinds of...".


And then, of course, there are words that are sometimes uncountable, but the countable forms are sort of a different shade of meaning:

"All life is sacred" vs. "Many lives were lost"

"Death is the mind-killer" vs. "There were three deaths in the battle"

Or, one i really like:

"Love is all you need" vs. "He had two great loves in his life"

(Maybe this is something that mostly happens to "abstracts" in English?)


So, long post made a lot shorter:  I'd love to get some feedback on this from Karyu Pawl =)



msg=311754 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 14:52:15 | u=5790

Re: GRID tidbits

Muzer

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12389.msg311593#msg311593 date=1284694405]

Here is a somewhat tricky one:

  moss    mosses 
================================
  prrwll    ayfneprrwill 


Moss in and of itself is al collective noun, but when made plural in English it carries the meaning "different KINDS of moss".

[/quote]

Is that Frommerian, or just deduction?



msg=311872 | topic=12389 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 17:36:05 | u=73

Re: GRID tidbits

Prrton

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=12389.msg311754#msg311754 date=1284735135]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12389.msg311593#msg311593 date=1284694405]

Here is a somewhat tricky one:

  moss    mosses 
================================
  prrwll    ayfneprrwill 


Moss in and of itself is al collective noun, but when made plural in English it carries the meaning "different KINDS of moss".

[/quote]

Is that Frommerian, or just deduction?
[/quote]

Neither, but he and I have discussed moss before (kin of). This is Frommerian:

  Oeru ke tsun livam ke'u lor to Eywa'evengä na'rìng a lew säpoli fa prrwll,
  kxawm mungwrr fìkifkey a lew säpìyi fa fpom sì lì'fya leNa'vi.

The 'moss' is in the singular (not «frrwll»).

This would be a good example. We should ask him what «frrwll» means, if anything.

My translation above (à la 'translate the meaning, not the words') shows what the ENGLISH means translated into Na'vi, but I didn't intend to preclude the existence of «frrwll» as a valid form in Na'vi.




msg=311352 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-16 20:39:01 | u=2788

Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Lance R. Casey

This poll is intended to gauge the opinions of the LearnNa'vi.org community regarding which questions about the language are the most important right now. The topics herein have been retrieved from [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/]Combining our Efforts II[/url], sorted, and in some cases merged, and this is the result.

ALL members get 7 votes to cast, and as the voting progresses the topics that people feel should be prioritized will begin to float to the top. The end result will be collected into a document to be sent to Karyu Pawl in preparation for the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/navi-language-workshop/]Na'vi Language Workshop[/url], with some more context to further define the questions.

The poll options are given in the form of terse titles, which are elaborated upon below. If there is something you don't understand, or feel should be clarified further, please do not hesitate to post your question here before casting your votes.

Also, please take note that the poll will run for exactly three days, and whatever the standings are at the end of those three days will constitute the final say of the community – no additions after the fact will be possible. Therefore, use your votes wisely, and don't delay too long in doing so.



A full kinship system
Frommer thinks that we need this and has already been given context and suggestions, so its inclusion here is meant to probe what importance the community ascribes to it.

Transitivity with verbs in ‹eyk›
The causative infix changes the transitivity of verbs; intransitive ones are made transitive, and transitive ones are made ditransitive. Can it be used freely, and are the resulting constructions predictable?
How does it apply to si-verbs? How are the cases handled then? (Si-verbs are always intransitive, but what would be the direct object with a transitive verb is here the indirect object instead, which means that there might already be a dative in play.)
Is the resulting verb always transitive, and must the subject then always be in the ergative, or can the verb be understood in a general sense?
What happens when the base verb is a linking verb (lu, slu, 'efu)?

Transitivity and infix positions for all known verbs
Before being explicitly told so, we did not know that, for example, sngä'i was intransitive and that "begin something" would be sngeykä'i. There are more verbs like this that need clarification, and also some ambiguous ones such as tsunslu and kenong where it is not obvious where the infixes should go.

Rules of ke
Must ke always come immediately before the verb? How about si-verbs?
Do the same rules apply when ke is embedded, e.g. zenke?
Is there an *ake form to complement kea?

Negation with adverbs
Inside or outside (ke nìwin or *nìkwin)?
Ke or kea?

Rules of txo
When is the subjunctive required? Canon examples are contradictory.
Are there specific rules for the protasis (the condition) and the apodosis (the conclusion)?

Word order with slu
A slu B – does A become B or B become A? Is there a rule to determine which becomes which?

Fì'u, fìkem and actions
When a subordinate clause is comprised of an action, can we use fwa et al or must we use fìkem a? (E.g. "To write this word in Na'vi is difficult.")

Rules of -pe+
Can you apply the interrogative affix -pe+ to any noun to form a "which" question?
How do you combine -pe+ with number prefixes? Do they meld, like fay+ and tsay+?

More comparative constructs
What happens when there is nothing for to to be relevant to? (E.g. "there is no faster ikran")
Can the superlative marker frato be applied to other parts of speech than adjectives? How?
"The more A, the more B"?
"A is as Q as B"?

Rules of sä-
How and when do you (Paul Frommer) create nouns with this prefix?

More on si-constructions
From which word classes can si-verbs be built?
How are participles formed? (E.g. "a clarified question" from law si or "a careful hunter" from nari si)
Can there be double datives? What would normally be the direct object is shifted to the indirect object with si-verbs (e.g. srung si oer help me), so what do you say when you need another indirect object?
Can the base noun take modifiers? (E.g. would kem awin si be "do a quick action"?)

Phonological issues
Are final stops unreleased also in situations like pot oel tse'a?
When do unstable vowel sequences decay? (E.g. äa, )
Are double vowels always prevented? Is seiyi generalizable?
What happens when adpositions are added to words that end in the same vowel or consonant that the adposition begins with? Oe + eo = ?
Similarly, what about indefinite -o added to words like fya'o?
Is sengi from s‹äng›i? If so, what is the cause of the sound change?

Does pum have plural forms?
If so, when are they used? We know from the listening excercise at Na'viteri that pum by itself can refer back to a plural noun.

Clarification on participles
Can an active participle take a direct object?
Can you create a gerund from ‹awn› like you can with tì- + ‹us›? If so, what would it mean?
Can you use a passive participle with an intransitive verb? If so, what would it mean?
What other infixes, if any, can the participle infixes be used with?

Rules of tsnì
We have sìlpey tsnì and ätxäle si tsnì. What is the general rule?

Combinations of pre-first position infixes
In a blog post at Na'viteri, Frommer said that these infixes can indeed occur together, and gave the example z‹äp›‹eyk›o. What is the full story?

Combinations of tense infixes
Are we correctly hearing tspìmìyang in the movie for I was about to kill him? If so, is this indicative of how different tenses can be combined, i.e. with future tense following past tense?

Are kä- and za- productive prefixes?
For example, is there a *kämunge (bring from a place) to complement zamunge (bring to a place) and munge (take, bring)? Can they be attached wherever such a distinction would make sense?

Which verbs can or must use the modal syntax?
Apart from the actual modal verbs (new, zene etc.), we know that sentences with fmi and sngä'i are constructed in the same way: oe zene kivä I must go, oe fmayi kivä I will try to go. Which other verbs use the same syntax?

Tense with modal verbs
In a modal sentence (e.g. oe new tsive'a Uniltìrantokxit I want to see Avatar), which verb is inflected for tense? That is, if the preceding statement were referring to the past, would it be namew or tsimve'a?

Special plural cases
Is there a plural "who?" (*fesu) when you know there are multiple persons involved?
Is the plural of fì'u ayfì'u or fayu? Are there differences of meaning to these?
How do you combine fra- with demonstrative prefixes? That is, how do you say, "all these rules"?

Synonyms
Several words in the lexicon have similar or identical translations. Are they true synonyms, or are there nuances?
Na/pxel, hawnu/tìhawnu si, nìn/tìng nari, way/tìrol?

What kind of "good" is sìltsan?
Morally/not evil, favorable/advantageous, ??

Inherent number of tsopì
Does tsopì refer to a pair of lungs (or whatever number the Na'vi have), or only to one part?

Rules of nang
When and how can you use nang?

Use of tätxaw
This word means "return" in the sense of going back to something. How do you specify that something: using cases or adpositions?
What would be the meaning of the causative teykätxaw? Could it be used for "give back an object to someone"?

Txan and pxay with temporal words
Do you choose which to use based on whether the word in question is countable? In English we have ”much time” (uncountable) but ”many years” (countable). Do you say pxaya zìsìt or txana zìsìt?

What kind of "think" does fpìl refer to?
See [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/to-think/]here[/url].

Meanings of nì'aw
Can it mean "merely" as well as "only, exclusively"?

Productivity of reduplication
We have letrrtrr (ordinary) and krro krro (at times). Can you create other repetitive concepts in the same way?

Attribution of adpositional phrases
Fìpo lu vrrtep a mì sokx atsleng It's a demon in a false body – is the a always required?

Use and formation of adjectives
Can we use more than two attributive adjectives with one noun (eana txìm atsawl)? How?
Can you use noun suffixes or enclitic adpositions together with the deriving prefix le-?
When an adjective is created by adding both ke and le- (e.g. keltsun), is the attributive marker optional as it is with le- on its own? That is, tute akelfpomtokx or tute kelfpomtokx?

Completion of answer-word chart
Filling in the blanks [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Questions#Answer_words]here[/url].

Does Na'vi have any ideophones?
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideophone]WP article[/url]

"X out of Y"
How do you say, "Seven hunters went into the forest, but only three of them returned"?

Application of gender suffixes
Are *foan, *ngae etc. possible pronoun forms?
Can -an and -e be freely attached to any word where they would make sense, or is there a fixed set of allowed terms?

One-time occurrences
Are there words used in only one set phrase, and/or a phrase that is only used in one very specific context?

How do you say "[noun] is [prep] [location]"?
Since tok is transitive it does not seem to work here, and if lu cannot function as "be in a place", then what other options are there?

Other functions of the genitive
Which are there, other than a simple possessive? Utral Aymokriyä Tree of Voices, for example.

"Self" and "own"
Are there words corresponding to "myself", "herself" etc.?
Is there a way to distinguish between "he ate his (own) food" and "he ate his (someone else's) food"?

Number system extensions
Decimal numbers (3.14 and suchlike)?
Very large numbers? Do they exist?
Negative numbers?
Simple fractions and a word for "half"?

Dates in Na'vi
How do you say them?
Do the Na'vi have months, and if so, what are they called and how are they used?

Asking/giving permission
Do we use tsun or something else?

Asking/giving directions
How do you say, "go to the right"?

Cardinal directions
Do the Na'vi think in terms of a compass rose, or do they have a different conception of direction? Absolute or relative?



msg=311396 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-16 21:12:40 | u=6460

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Tirea Ikran


Eh, this is difficult....all of these are really good questions!    :)



msg=311398 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-16 21:13:47 | u=6582

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Tirea Ikran link=topic=12540.msg311396#msg311396 date=1284671560]

Eh, this is difficult....all of these are really good questions!    :)
[/quote]

Sran...  oe kivin krr nì'ul....



msg=311494 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-16 23:19:51 | u=6582

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

lapo lesxkxawng

As I have said, tough, tough decision (and in fact, if I could choose a few more, I would), yet here are my final 7 votes, with the reasons on why I chose them:

Rules of "-pe+"

Personally, I was surprised to see "-pe+" have a rated productivity of 4, yet only seeing a few custom words made using that prefix/suffix.  I have developed a curiosity for more information regarding this prefix/suffix.

Combinations of pre-first position infixes

I had my own, short little thread about something like this, and like many others, I just want to know.

Synonyms

Like many others, I am curoius and just want some clarification.

Rules of "nang"

...and also the location of "pak" in a sentence, and maybe even "srak(e)" and "kefyak."

Productivity of reduplication

Like many others, I am curoius and just want some clarification.

Number system extensions

Only interested in fractions (e.g. how would a Na'vi say "one-half").  I wouldn't imagine large Na'vi numbers, decimals, or negative numbers would be very practical in the world of Pandora.

Cardinal directions

Like many others, I am curoius and just want to know.


[font=Papyrus]'Ivong Na'vi!




msg=311499 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 00:05:27 | u=3552

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

tigermind

They're all interesting questions; i'll be excited to see what the lì'fyaolo' decides =)



msg=311510 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 00:50:56 | u=7053

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

burritoninja007

They're definitely all great questions! 

An interesting followup would be how we would answer the second place set of 7 ourselves and see what comes up.  If nothing else, it would be an interesting cross-sectional snapshot of the community's creative tendencies during these formative developmental stages.  =D



msg=311514 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 00:56:59 | u=3552

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

tigermind

I'm surprised how many people want the kinship system.  I mean, it's an important question, but a) not having it hasn't interfered with my ability to use Na'vi thus far and b) i'm not sure Frommer can give us an answer without James Cameron, anyway.  [desc=But i will agree with the voice of the People =)]Slä masyllteie oe hu mokri Na'viyä[/desc].



msg=311595 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 03:47:29 | u=73

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Prrton

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12540.msg311514#msg311514 date=1284685019]
I'm surprised how many people want the kinship system.  I mean, it's an important question, but a) not having it hasn't interfered with my ability to use Na'vi thus far and b) i'm not sure Frommer can give us an answer without James Cameron, anyway. Slä masyllteie oe hu mokri Na'viyä.
[/quote]

You know, this is also a question that I frequently want to ask. Please understand that this is meant 100% as a QUESTION, because I don't know. I wonder if hu can work with things that are not other sentient beings?

It seems to me that this MIGHT be an option for this sentence:

  Slä masyllteie oe ìlä mokri Na'viyä.

I have heard hu described as referring to "accompaniment" and that's generally how I think of it.

Can a PERSON *accompany* a voice that is not his or her own?

This could probably be answered by a piece of canon if there is one that uses hu to tie a person to a non-person/abstract concept belonging to another.




msg=311598 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 04:06:31 | u=3552

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

tigermind

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12540.msg311595#msg311595 date=1284695249]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12540.msg311514#msg311514 date=1284685019]
I'm surprised how many people want the kinship system.  I mean, it's an important question, but a) not having it hasn't interfered with my ability to use Na'vi thus far and b) i'm not sure Frommer can give us an answer without James Cameron, anyway. Slä masyllteie oe hu mokri Na'viyä.
[/quote]

You know, this is also a question that I frequently want to ask. Please understand that this is meant 100% as a QUESTION, because I don't know. I wonder if hu can work with things that are not other sentient beings?

It seems to me that this MIGHT be an option for this sentence:

  Slä masyllteie oe ìlä mokri Na'viyä.

I have heard hu described as referring to "accompaniment" and that's generally how I think of it.

Can a PERSON *accompany* a voice that is not his or her own?

This could probably be answered by a piece of canon if there is one that uses hu to tie a person to a non-person/abstract concept belonging to another.[/quote]

[desc=Your question interests me, Prrton]Ngeyä tìpawm oeyä eltur tìtxen si, ma Prrton[/desc].  [desc=It's an excellent thought, very clever =)]Tsaw lu säfpìl atxantsan, leiu sìlronsem nìtxan[/desc].  [desc=I was thinking that this phrase "mllte hu X" can't be changed, but i don't know]Fparmìl oel futa fìlì'fyavi alu "mllte hu X" ke tsun fkol leykivatem, slä ke omum oel[/desc].



msg=311615 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 07:23:39 | u=631

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Again a hugh Thanks to Lance for putting this together!!!
I can’t imagine how much work that must have been.

Gave my vote … and the signature spreads the word :)


Ma Prrton, ma Kì’eyawn,
There was also the possibility to use the dative with mllte … but you are right, a canon example would be great.



msg=311616 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 07:29:08 | u=4325

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Nawma Ngawng

KRÄPX cast my 7 votes before I looked up what an ideophone was.....ffffuuu

...hrh



msg=311637 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 09:43:02 | u=2788

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12540.msg311514#msg311514 date=1284685019]
b) i'm not sure Frommer can give us an answer without James Cameron, anyway..
[/quote]
He has stated as much himself. As mentioned above, it's only part of the poll to see just how much we want it to happen.

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12540.msg311595#msg311595 date=1284695249]
You know, this is also a question that I frequently want to ask. Please understand that this is meant 100% as a QUESTION, because I don't know. I wonder if hu can work with things that are not other sentient beings?

It seems to me that this MIGHT be an option for this sentence:

  Slä masyllteie oe ìlä mokri Na'viyä.

I have heard hu described as referring to "accompaniment" and that's generally how I think of it.

Can a PERSON *accompany* a voice that is not his or her own?

This could probably be answered by a piece of canon if there is one that uses hu to tie a person to a non-person/abstract concept belonging to another.
[/quote]
From the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon#More_extracts_from_various_emails]Canon Wiki[/url] (Feb 18):

[quote=Frommer]
2. mesyalhu a ikran

I like that the best. Seems quite natural.
[/quote]



msg=311856 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 17:11:27 | u=73

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Prrton

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12540.msg311637#msg311637 date=1284716582]

From the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon#More_extracts_from_various_emails]Canon Wiki[/url] (Feb 18):

[quote=Frommer]
2. mesyalhu a ikran

I like that the best. Seems quite natural.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Almost a definitive answer, but not quite (tì'efumì oeyä). The wings of the animal belong to it. Inalienable possession comes into play. The wings are attached to the creature. They always *accompany* it in that sense.

Thanks very very much for finding this, though. It's definitely pointing in a specific direction.




msg=311995 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 20:03:39 | u=4754

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

What exactly is a 'kinship system'?

This was a difficult thing to vote on. These are my choices:

Transitivity and infix positions for all known verbs
Fì'u, fìkem and actions
More on si-constructions
Clarification on participles
Which verbs can or must use the modal syntax?
Attribution of adpositional phrases
Use and formation of adjectives

If I could pick three more, they would be:

Rules of sä-
How do you say "[noun] is [prep] [location]"?
Number system extensions

BTW, Prrton, I like your new avatar!

And irayo to Lance and everyone else for putting in the work to get these questions all answered.



msg=312015 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-17 20:32:30 | u=73

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Prrton

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=12540.msg311995#msg311995 date=1284753819]

What exactly is a 'kinship system'?

BTW, Prrton, I like your new avatar!

And irayo to Lance and everyone else for putting in the work to get these questions all answered.

[/quote]

A kinship system is the way people think and talk about relatives. For example, we don't have words for "aunt" and "uncle" in Na'vi yet (and maybe they won't exist). Some systems are very complicated like the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_kinship]Chinese one[/url]. Others are simpler.

  [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinship_and_descent]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinship_and_descent[/url]

Thank you for the compliment. This is kind of an "old" avatar, but I've recycled it for here. It is handy to have one. Kenya is very regal in yours too.

I second your thanking Lance for all of his hard work on this. He's put it together fantastically well, especially considering all the volume and complexity.

Irayo nìmun!!




msg=312692 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-18 21:36:10 | u=2788

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Lance R. Casey

Less than a day remaining, with 55 votes (times seven) and counting. Don't miss out on this opportunity to contribute to the development of our beloved language!



msg=312825 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-19 01:46:41 | u=985

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Nyx

This really was a hard decision, so many important points! But I guess that sooner or later we'll also get answers to those that aren't picked now.



msg=312922 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-19 10:07:50 | u=2788

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=12540.msg312825#msg312825 date=1284860801]
But I guess that sooner or later we'll also get answers to those that aren't picked now.
[/quote]

A clarification on that: the idea is to include every topic (barring a 0% result, I suppose) in the final priority-ranked document, with emphasis on the top tier, but not bothering with ordering in the bottom tier.



msg=313139 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-19 20:47:15 | u=2788

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Lance R. Casey

Voting is now closed.

Attached below you will find the resulting document in a ridiculously ambitious format. ;D



msg=313189 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-19 22:16:09 | u=631

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]66 votes … can that be taken as representative? :( Is that the number of ‘official’ speakers?

A huge thanks for putting this all together, ma Lance – great work!



msg=313234 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-19 23:32:56 | u=73

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Prrton


I would have loved to have seen at least 100 votes, but OH WELL...

We are what we are.  ::)

Ma Lance,

Your time and effort on this is TREMENDOUSLY appreciated and I don't believe it could have been done better. The doc is really compelling. I've seen most of this before, but it was still very interesting for me to read through it again.

BRAVO!!




msg=313309 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-20 04:20:40 | u=4754

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

txantsan nang (to borrow from a proposed question), ma Lance.

This is worth reading more than once.

I did notice one problem, though: There are two item number 6's and no number 7.



msg=313312 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-20 04:38:59 | u=3552

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

tigermind

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=12540.msg313309#msg313309 date=1284956440]
I did notice one problem, though: There are two item number 6's and no number 7.
[/quote]

Was it a tie?



msg=313315 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-20 04:47:10 | u=6582

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=12540.msg313309#msg313309 date=1284956440]
I did notice one problem, though: There are two item number 6's and no number 7.
[/quote]

I also noticed two 2's in the doc.

Very fine compilation BTW :)




msg=313355 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-20 06:09:32 | u=6582

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12540.msg313139#msg313139 date=1284929235]
Voting is now closed.
[/quote]

[quote=Outdated forum news]The Poll of Outstanding Questions for Karyu Pawl at the Na'vi Language Workshop is now open! Go make your voice heard![/quote]
(Soon to be updated oe sìlpey...)




msg=313397 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-20 10:18:58 | u=2788

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Lance R. Casey

There were quite a few tied places, so in the tradition of sports results I have given such items the same ranking, since neither takes precedence over the other, and then jumped a corresponding number of steps for the next non-tied entry. For example, there are four questions which had the same number of votes for place #11, so the next number in the sequence is #15.



msg=313458 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-20 12:52:31 | u=985

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Nyx

That makes sense. Nice work, putting this together :D



msg=313571 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-20 17:00:28 | u=6460

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Tirea Ikran

Ma Lance, thanks so much for all the work you've done regarding this poll and the summary document!    Certainly a very non-trivial effort.  :)

Irayo, irayo, irayo!



msg=313757 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-20 22:34:44 | u=6023

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Txona Rolyu

I wish I could have voted. I found out about this too late :(

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=313956 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-21 06:02:28 | u=6869

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

DutchNavi

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=12540.msg313189#msg313189 date=1284934569]
66 votes … can that be taken as representative? :( Is that the number of ‘official’ speakers? [/quote]

I think the 66 votes is in honor of Karyu Pawl's birthday. :)

"A full kinship system" has 26 votes (5.8%).
I really though 26/66 is about 39%. Luckily our Karyu Pawl has a degree in mathematics, so it shouldn't be too hard for him to multiply the percentages by seven.



msg=313968 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-21 06:48:21 | u=195

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

esoanem

Ma Dutchnavi, the 66 is the number of people voting, not the number of votes (which is just under 7 times that number) so the percentages are correct, just measuring a different thing.



msg=314154 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-21 16:55:25 | u=6869

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

DutchNavi

Thank you Lance for your great work and please don't bother about my comment below.  ;)

-- Off topic ---
[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=12540.msg313968#msg313968 date=1285051701]
Ma Dutchnavi, the 66 is the number of people voting, not the number of votes (which is just under 7 times that number) so the percentages are correct, just measuring a different thing.[/quote]

I agree that there is a logical explanation for the percentages, but that doesn't mean the percentages are correct. If every voter had the choice to spend all his/her seven votes on one topic, then the percentages would indeed be correct. But in this case a voter can spend not more than one of his/her seven votes on one topic so the resulting percentages have to be calculated accordingly. In other words the maximum number of votes a topic can get (100%) is equal to the number of voters (66).
-- /Off topic ---



msg=314158 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-21 17:06:31 | u=73

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Prrton

[quote author=DutchNavi link=topic=12540.msg314154#msg314154 date=1285088125]
Thank you Lance for your great work and please don't bother about my comment below.  ;)

-- Off topic ---
[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=12540.msg313968#msg313968 date=1285051701]
Ma Dutchnavi, the 66 is the number of people voting, not the number of votes (which is just under 7 times that number) so the percentages are correct, just measuring a different thing.[/quote]

I agree that there is a logical explanation for the percentages, but that doesn't mean the percentages are correct. If every voter had the choice to spend all his/her seven votes on one topic, then the percentages would indeed be correct. But in this case a voter can spend not more than one of his/her seven votes on one topic so the resulting percentages have to be calculated accordingly. In other words the maximum number of votes a topic can get (100%) is equal to the number of voters (66).
-- /Off topic ---
[/quote]

I agree that the percentages as generated by the poll calc engine are at a minimum CONFUSING, but the rankings are fundamentally based on the number of votes. "Kinship System's" getting 26 votes means that 26 people overtly care about it. "Tätxaw" getting 0 means that even the person who came up with that question (when voting) felt that other topics were MORE important. Ultimately, that's what I think K. Pawl will care about. The way Tsm. Lance prepared everything for delivery to him clearly demonstrates the topics' meanings and import.

The last page shows EVERYTHING as it was dumped out of the poll and K. Pawl was told that every person got UP TO 7 votes. He's a mathematician as well as a linguist. He'll figure it out if he cares about that level of detail.




msg=314223 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-21 19:52:57 | u=4754

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12540.msg314158#msg314158 date=1285088791]


The last page shows EVERYTHING as it was dumped out of the poll and K. Pawl was told that every person got UP TO 7 votes. He's a mathematician as well as a linguist. He'll figure it out if he cares about that level of detail.

[/quote]

Ah, maybe we will eventually learn how to do calculus in Na`vi  :)



msg=314226 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-21 20:02:21 | u=34

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

IPstixrawesume

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12540.msg314158#msg314158 date=1285088791]He's a mathematician as well as a linguist.
[/quote]

Doesn't surprise me at all... ;)

To sort-of stay on topic, I can't wait to see what you guys and girls bring back from the workshop!



msg=314275 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-21 21:33:09 | u=6582

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=12540.msg314223#msg314223 date=1285098777]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12540.msg314158#msg314158 date=1285088791]


The last page shows EVERYTHING as it was dumped out of the poll and K. Pawl was told that every person got UP TO 7 votes. He's a mathematician as well as a linguist. He'll figure it out if he cares about that level of detail.

[/quote]

Ah, maybe we will eventually learn how to do calculus in Na`vi  :)
[/quote]

That would shock the ☐☐☐☐ out of me :P :P :P




msg=314686 | topic=12540 | board=99 | time=2010-09-22 17:21:04 | u=6023

Re: Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=12540.msg314223#msg314223 date=1285098777]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12540.msg314158#msg314158 date=1285088791]


The last page shows EVERYTHING as it was dumped out of the poll and K. Pawl was told that every person got UP TO 7 votes. He's a mathematician as well as a linguist. He'll figure it out if he cares about that level of detail.

[/quote]

Ah, maybe we will eventually learn how to do calculus in Na`vi  :)
[/quote]

Oh jeez. I'm bad enough at math in English!

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=312737 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-18 22:31:31 | u=430

New Word: Gift

TehMightyPirate

Received a thank you from Karyu Pawl for the birthday wish and the song I sent him, got this new word in his reply:

STXE.li 'gift, present'

His message: [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/community-calendar/karyu-pawls-birthday/msg312733/#msg312733]http://forum.learnnavi.org/community-calendar/karyu-pawls-birthday/msg312733/#msg312733[/url]



msg=312740 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-18 22:33:15 | u=1975

Re: New Word: Gift

Ean Tirea

NICE!! and ALSO a prime example of how unreliable deriving affixes really are. one would have expected "gift" to be a derivative of give.



msg=312749 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-18 22:46:27 | u=631

Re: New Word: Gift

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Great! Thanks for sharing—this song is awesome! and you deserve the credit!

And an example for tìtstunwi “kindness”.
Given the ‘warning’ that the - forms need to be listed (or did that only include forms made from verbs?) it’s good to know :)



msg=312764 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-18 23:04:24 | u=3552

Re: New Word: Gift

tigermind

Good catch, ma Plumps.  My brain skimmed right over that without catching that it was a new tì- word.



msg=312768 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-18 23:13:21 | u=1975

Re: New Word: Gift

Ean Tirea

[quote]
Tìtstunwi ayngeyä oeru teya soli.

ta Pawl
[/quote]

yeah. canon.

well according to him a long time back, tì- is for deriving abstract nouns. kindness is just as much an abstract noun as friendship, guidance, strength, power, and the other tì forms. I wouldnt expect a word for like "cat" or something to have tì.

oooo TAAAronyu!!! more words! ;D



msg=312788 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-19 00:25:03 | u=0

Re: New Word: Gift

Swoka Swizaw

"Stxeli?" I like it!

Thinking forward, srese'eia oe stxeli tìng (or, perhaps, instead if tìng, a more general si) being to present/give something as a gift.



msg=312791 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-19 00:29:24 | u=1550

Re: New Word: Gift

Taras

Ma Ftiafpi, irayo :)

Ma Swoka Swizaw, I think tìng is better. And perhaps it becomes single word stxelitìng (like pänutìng) ;)



msg=312826 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-19 01:49:01 | u=985

Re: New Word: Gift

Nyx

Tewti! Mipa aylì'u! :D Thanks for sharing



msg=313534 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-20 15:38:14 | u=6023

Re: New Word: Gift

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=12578.msg312737#msg312737 date=1284849091]
Received a thank you from Karyu Pawl for the birthday wish and the song I sent him, got this new word in his reply:

STXE.li 'gift, present'

His message: [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/community-calendar/karyu-pawls-birthday/msg312733/#msg312733]http://forum.learnnavi.org/community-calendar/karyu-pawls-birthday/msg312733/#msg312733[/url]
[/quote]

Tewti! Karyu Pawl gave us a present on his birthday! That was nice of him :) Tìnusume aylì'u amip fwa prrte' leiu oeru :)

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=315431 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-09-24 13:30:53 | u=132

Re: New Word: Gift

Taronyu

Great news, man.

Added.



msg=344180 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-11-07 03:01:21 | u=7237

Re: New Word: Gift

Meynari

Wow. An object crumbles with time, but words are forever. Good job.



msg=344282 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-11-07 11:47:29 | u=132

Re: New Word: Gift

Taronyu

[quote author=Meynari link=topic=12578.msg344180#msg344180 date=1289098881]
Wow. An object crumbles with time, but words are forever. Good job.
[/quote]

Please do not necropost; that is, do not post in topics which have not been posted in in two weeks or more. Thank you.



msg=355107 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-11-25 07:09:41 | u=6023

Re: New Word: Gift

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=12578.msg344282#msg344282 date=1289130449]
[quote author=Meynari link=topic=12578.msg344180#msg344180 date=1289098881]
Wow. An object crumbles with time, but words are forever. Good job.
[/quote]

Please do not necropost; that is, do not post in topics which have not been posted in in two weeks or more. Thank you.
[/quote]

And why not? Not everyone is on here all the time. I'm sure there are still some new people coming to LN. Case in point: Meynari has only been here since Oct 31. If you mods don't want "necroposting" to happen then perhaps y'all should lock the topics that haven't been posted in for 2+ weeks. Just a thought.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=355108 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-11-25 07:36:56 | u=195

Re: New Word: Gift

esoanem

[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=12578.msg355107#msg355107 date=1290668981]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=12578.msg344282#msg344282 date=1289130449]
[quote author=Meynari link=topic=12578.msg344180#msg344180 date=1289098881]
Wow. An object crumbles with time, but words are forever. Good job.
[/quote]

Please do not necropost; that is, do not post in topics which have not been posted in in two weeks or more. Thank you.
[/quote]

And why not? Not everyone is on here all the time. I'm sure there are still some new people coming to LN. Case in point: Meynari has only been here since Oct 31. If you mods don't want "necroposting" to happen then perhaps y'all should lock the topics that haven't been posted in for 2+ weeks. Just a thought.

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

There is a difference between posting in an old thread and necroing it. This mainly comes down to content, if the person posting has something new to add then it's fine and isn't necro, if their post doesn't add much to the discussion then it probably is. Locking topics would stop people from being able to do the first and that loss would arguably be worse than occasionally having tell people not to necro.



msg=355111 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-11-25 07:45:08 | u=6023

Re: New Word: Gift

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=12578.msg355108#msg355108 date=1290670616]
[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=12578.msg355107#msg355107 date=1290668981]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=12578.msg344282#msg344282 date=1289130449]
[quote author=Meynari link=topic=12578.msg344180#msg344180 date=1289098881]
Wow. An object crumbles with time, but words are forever. Good job.
[/quote]

Please do not necropost; that is, do not post in topics which have not been posted in in two weeks or more. Thank you.
[/quote]

And why not? Not everyone is on here all the time. I'm sure there are still some new people coming to LN. Case in point: Meynari has only been here since Oct 31. If you mods don't want "necroposting" to happen then perhaps y'all should lock the topics that haven't been posted in for 2+ weeks. Just a thought.

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

There is a difference between posting in an old thread and necroing it. This mainly comes down to content, if the person posting has something new to add then it's fine and isn't necro, if their post doesn't add much to the discussion then it probably is. Locking topics would stop people from being able to do the first and that loss would arguably be worse than occasionally having tell people not to necro.
[/quote]

Ok, I understand that, but what is the big problem about "necroposting?"

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=355195 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-11-25 15:14:02 | u=21

Re: New Word: Gift

wm.annis

[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=12578.msg355111#msg355111 date=1290671108]Ok, I understand that, but what is the big problem about "necroposting?"
[/quote]

1) Culture — it's widely considered rude on forums all over the net, not just here.

2) Danger — since our knowledge of the language is so fluid, and has developed over time, bringing back some old threads is genuinely dangerous.  It might be bringing bad information back into discussion.

3) Tedium — "me, too" or "nice!" posts to very old posts clutter things up for other people reading the forum. We have more than enough new topics to keep up with.

4) Shouting into the wind — the person the necropost resonds to might not even be here any more.

If a post to a long-gone thread actually raises substantive points, it's not usually considered necroposting.  That's why we stick with an age warning on old posts, rather than locking them outright.



msg=355360 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-11-25 18:35:39 | u=5790

Re: New Word: Gift

Muzer

Agreed - I'll also add that [desc=(as it's called on most of the forums that I am on, which I prefer because it doesn't invent stupid words)]thread resurrection[/desc] quite often leads to more people not checking the date (because it's at the top of the list), which in turns lead to pointless discussions with people correcting things the original poster said - except that they said them back when those things were thought to be true, so it's really superfluous and irritating.

By all means, resurrect a thread if you have something substantial to add - but not just to show your agreement to a post, for example.



msg=355376 | topic=12578 | board=99 | time=2010-11-25 18:46:29 | u=6023

Re: New Word: Gift

Txona Rolyu

Thank you Muzer and Wm. Annis, that is exactly what I needed to know. Also, thank you for being polite about it and not making me feel like a skxawng for asking about necroposting. And I do apologize for my excessive off-topic posting in this old thread.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=317368 | topic=12754 | board=99 | time=2010-09-27 02:40:42 | u=73

Stress shift in OMUM is irregular

Prrton


I've heard «omum» pronounced by K. Pawl both with stress on O and on U. This is not 'normal' for Na'vi, so I asked him. And he answered:

[quote=Paul Frommer to Prrton via e-mail 26 Sept., 2010][font=Arial]
Your ears didn't deceive you. I vacillated on the stress for this word. And after thinking about it, I want to make this an exception to the general rule that the stress doesn't shift for derived forms. (A few odd quirks and exceptions make a language interesting, kefyak? <l>)

So for omum only:

When the word is in root form, the stress is on the second syllable:

Oe oMUM. Ke oMUM oe.

But in derived and inflected forms, it shifts to the o:

New oe iVOmum.

NìawNOmum . . .

Etc.

P.

[/quote]

So there we have it. An irregular verb.

Yeay! (I think)  8)





msg=317377 | topic=12754 | board=99 | time=2010-09-27 02:46:32 | u=1550

Re: Stress shift in OMUM is irregular

Taras

Irayo ;) Slä oe frakrr pamltxe nì'aw san omum sìk sì san ivomum sìk.. Slä set olomum oel futa oer tìkxey lamu ;D

Thanks ;) I always said only "omum" and "ivomum". But now I've learned that I was mistaken  ;D



msg=317429 | topic=12754 | board=99 | time=2010-09-27 04:10:19 | u=3049

Re: Stress shift in OMUM is irregular

BonzoisAwesome

WOO for irregular verbs! :D



msg=317438 | topic=12754 | board=99 | time=2010-09-27 04:29:48 | u=3648

Re: Stress shift in OMUM is irregular

Anubis

you know the sad thing? I saw this on facebook before i saw it here.



msg=317470 | topic=12754 | board=99 | time=2010-09-27 05:49:04 | u=6023

Re: Stress shift in OMUM is irregular

Txona Rolyu

Hmm eltur tìtxen si. Lam oeru stxong, slä Karyu Pawlìl ayhorenit ngivop!

Hmm, interesting. It seems strange to me, but Paul makes the rules!

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=317622 | topic=12754 | board=99 | time=2010-09-27 12:50:37 | u=985

Re: Stress shift in OMUM is irregular

Nyx

I've been saying it like that too. Weird! And yay for irregularity :D



msg=317660 | topic=12754 | board=99 | time=2010-09-27 13:50:56 | u=3552

Re: Stress shift in OMUM is irregular

tigermind

*sigh* I've been doing exactly the opposite *headdesk*

Oh well...

And hey, hasn't anybody else noticed there's a new blog post at Na'viteri?  WTF, Na'vi-bot?



msg=318080 | topic=12754 | board=99 | time=2010-09-28 04:27:44 | u=6582

Re: Stress shift in OMUM is irregular

lapo lesxkxawng

Quite the find.  Never would've guessed that quickly....

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12754.msg317660#msg317660 date=1285595456]
And hey, hasn't anybody else noticed there's a new blog post at Na'viteri?  [desc=Automated user: an RSS feed from naviteri.org]WTF, Na'vi-bot?[/desc]
[/quote]

Sran, and the page now has quite a few comments on it.



msg=318086 | topic=12754 | board=99 | time=2010-09-28 04:38:01 | u=1

Re: Stress shift in OMUM is irregular

Seabass

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12754.msg317660#msg317660 date=1285595456]
*sigh* I've been doing exactly the opposite *headdesk*

Oh well...

And hey, hasn't anybody else noticed there's a new blog post at Na'viteri?  WTF, Na'vi-bot?
[/quote]

Yup, I wrote that thing so it posts updates from Na'viTeri in the /updates/ section.



msg=319616 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-09-30 14:41:06 | u=1550

Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

Taras

Kaltxì, ma oeyä eylan.

Now we have a confirmation of the word fula which means fì'ul a. Also we have another way to say "I'm happy". Before we knew only «Oe 'efu nitram» and must use the cause of happiness as topic: «Oe 'efu nitram furia ...». But now I've received the message from Pawl where he wrote

[quote=Pawl]Fula tsayun oeng pivängkxo ye'rìn ulte ngari oel mokrit stayawm, oeti nitram sleyku nìtxan.[/quote]

So, we can use the expression «Xìl oeti sleyku feeling», where X is the cause of feeling which can be any adjective that means feeling: nitram, keftxo etc..



msg=319619 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-09-30 14:47:57 | u=6892

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

Sireayä mokri

Great, irayo nìtxan ma Kemaweyan.



msg=319621 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-09-30 14:54:10 | u=6713

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

Peyä Tìrol

Awesome, I thought that we'd eventually see fula.
Thanks for comfirming, Kem :D



msg=319625 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-09-30 15:01:46 | u=21

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

wm.annis

I suppose tsala is waiting in the Platonic Arena of Na'vi Grammar, too.



msg=319666 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-09-30 16:01:19 | u=3552

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

tigermind

Txantsan!  Irayo for sharing, ma Kemaweyan  :)



msg=319771 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-09-30 17:48:16 | u=985

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

Nyx

Sweet :D thanks for sharing.

I have to admit "fula" made me snicker, it means "ugly" in Swedish... :P



msg=319955 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-09-30 20:01:10 | u=3552

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

tigermind

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=12820.msg319771#msg319771 date=1285868896]
Sweet :D thanks for sharing.

I have to admit "fula" made me snicker, it means "ugly" in Swedish... :P
[/quote]

Heehee.  I'm sure there are some obscenities from some language buried in Na'vi somewhere...



msg=320096 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-09-30 21:49:36 | u=6582

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12820.msg319625#msg319625 date=1285858906]
I suppose tsala is waiting in the Platonic Arena of Na'vi Grammar, too.
[/quote]

I was speculating the same here (not so much with fula, though).




msg=320224 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-10-01 01:22:29 | u=6713

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

Peyä Tìrol

I wonder if we'll get Fì'ur a -> Fura too.



msg=320226 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-10-01 01:26:20 | u=1550

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

Taras

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that we already have fura ;)



msg=320275 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-10-01 04:15:10 | u=6582

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12820.msg320226#msg320226 date=1285896380]
I'm not sure, but it seems to me that we already have fura ;)
[/quote]

Last I checked, we don't really have that contraction, nor [desc=tsa('u)-r a]tsara[/desc]

...but hopefully it will be possible :)




msg=320324 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-10-01 06:38:39 | u=195

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

esoanem

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12820.msg320226#msg320226 date=1285896380]
I'm not sure, but it seems to me that we already have fura ;)
[/quote]

No, but we do have furia (fì'u-ri a).



msg=320464 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-10-01 15:16:49 | u=132

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

Taronyu

Good catch. :D



msg=320570 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-10-01 17:24:33 | u=4754

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

So with fula, we could write something like yerikit teraron fula spule tserayon ikran?



msg=320699 | topic=12820 | board=99 | time=2010-10-01 19:48:09 | u=6023

Re: Fula - short form of «fì'ul a» and «tsal oeti sleyku nitram»

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12820.msg319616#msg319616 date=1285857666]
Kaltxì, ma oeyä eylan.

Now we have a confirmation of the word fula which means fì'ul a. Also we have another way to say "I'm happy". Before we knew only «Oe 'efu nitram» and must use the cause of happiness as topic: «Oe 'efu nitram furia ...». But now I've received the message from Pawl where he wrote

[quote=Pawl]Fula tsayun oeng pivängkxo ye'rìn ulte ngari oel mokrit stayawm, oeti nitram sleyku nìtxan.[/quote]

So, we can use the expression «Xìl oeti sleyku feeling», where X is the cause of feeling which can be any adjective that means feeling: nitram, keftxo etc..
[/quote]

Wou! Fì'u leiu txantsan! Irayo seiyi oe ngaru sì Pawlur!

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=323681 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-04 22:59:19 | u=73

Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Prrton

The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too. This new tidbit is something little but nice before I get very busy with a new work project tomorrow.

Tsmukan Hufwe ta’em was aware that I was planning to show his avatarization done by the very very talented Tsmuke Kxeyey to K. Pawl over the weekend. K. Pawl also saw others by the very very talented Tsmuke Tìngay Mungeyä. He liked them all very much. But, Tsmukan Hufwe ta’em sent me “more than one PM mail” over the course of the weekend asking about his photo. ;)

[img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/sre-maw.jpg[/img]

This morning I explicitly asked K. Pawl what brief message he wanted to say to Tsm. Hufwe ta’em about the pic (seeing them both side by side. His response was:

    Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

There are two things that are particularly interesting about this (to me).

(1) It contains a new adjective «sayrìp» (“handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)), (2) It means roughly “It’s nice for me to see you look extremely handsome in your blue photo.” (He didn’t comment specifically on the non-blue version (“before”) photo, but I wouldn't take that personally.) ;)

The grammar uses the topical marker -ìri and that’s on the “photo”. The phrase «mì rel» (or «relmì», “in the photo/picture”) does not appear anywhere in what he said. This is a good reminder to us to not try to do “literal” translations directly from English all the time.

I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

    lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
    sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
    sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)

So, thank you ma Hufwe ta’em and ma Kxeyey (and, of course, ma K. Pawl), for the new word!




msg=323878 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 05:23:53 | u=2909

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Kayrìlion

[quote]The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too.[/quote]

Awesome. You would not believe how eagerly I (and probably everyone else) am waiting to hear all the great new developments you guys have come up with!

[quote]I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

    lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
    sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
    sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)[/quote]

That's cool to know, that Na'vi has that same sort of gender-defined split of words for attractiveness, sort of like gorgeous/handsome in English. Are we to assume, then, that mowan is gender-neutral? (I mean, if it can be used to describe tìtusaron, I'd say so.  ;))

Kayrìlien



msg=323879 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 05:34:07 | u=73

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Prrton

[quote author=Kayrìlien link=topic=12905.msg323878#msg323878 date=1286256233]
[quote]The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too.[/quote]

Awesome. You would not believe how eagerly I (and probably everyone else) am waiting to hear all the great new developments you guys have come up with!

[quote]I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

     lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
     sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
     sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)[/quote]

That's cool to know, that Na'vi has that same sort of gender-defined split of words for attractiveness, sort of like gorgeous/handsome in English. Are we to assume, then, that mowan is gender-neutral? (I mean, if it can be used to describe tìtusaron, I'd say so.  ;))

Kayrìlien
[/quote]

In what sense would «mowan» not be gender neutral?

This intrigues me.




msg=323885 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 05:58:56 | u=54

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Tiger

I must admit in being a little disappointed that they would distinguish masculine beauty vs feminine beauty in the language, given how little gender seems to matter in many other aspects of the language. But I suppose not everything has to be different, and in fact making everything different would perhaps have made it feel less natural and more contrived.

Still, new stuff is always txantsan nìtxan nang.



msg=323915 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 06:56:39 | u=2909

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Kayrìlion

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12905.msg323879#msg323879 date=1286256847]
[quote author=Kayrìlien link=topic=12905.msg323878#msg323878 date=1286256233]
[quote]The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too.[/quote]

Awesome. You would not believe how eagerly I (and probably everyone else) am waiting to hear all the great new developments you guys have come up with!

[quote]I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

     lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
     sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
     sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)[/quote]

That's cool to know, that Na'vi has that same sort of gender-defined split of words for attractiveness, sort of like gorgeous/handsome in English. Are we to assume, then, that mowan is gender-neutral? (I mean, if it can be used to describe tìtusaron, I'd say so.  ;))

Kayrìlien
[/quote]

In what sense would «mowan» not be gender neutral?

This intrigues me.

[/quote]

Well, see, that's what I mean...if there are gender-specific words for certain concepts but not others, it seems rather arbitrary to have any gender-specific words. Like, if you take the English equivalent of mowan to be "sexy", then yes, it's neutral, but there are examples of gendered pairs of words, especially unequal ones. (Guys and girls, anyone? Instead of guys and gals?)

I'm of the mind that a lot of the gender-specific words in English only persist that way because of social tradition; which can lead to any number of strange consequences, including, for example, the uneasiness that men have when attempting to complement each other's appearance. It seems to me that if we tried to reduce the number of gendered words in the language (remember we're talking about a language that doesn't have an equivalent word for Na'vi po), we might be able to eliminate some of the longstanding sexual prejudices still inherent in society.

But I digress. I agree with Omängum Fra'uti; it's moderately disappointing to see gendered words, from an altruistic perspective, but he's right; having one or two examples of gendered pairs does make the language seem more natural, almost as if there were once more examples of this phenomenon that have now faded into obscurity (sort of like how words like po only need the masculine/feminine suffixes once rather than every time)

I didn't really answer your question, ma Prrton. Hìtxoa; to be honest, I don't think I know of an example for that.  :-[

Kayrìlien



msg=323919 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 06:58:48 | u=6023

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12905.msg323681#msg323681 date=1286233159]
The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too. .[/quote]

I can NOT wait to hear all about it and see some awesome pics! My curiosity of what has transpired from this workshop is burning with the flaming passion of a thousand white-hot sons!


[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12905.msg323681#msg323681 date=1286233159]
(1) It contains a new adjective «sayrìp» (“handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)), (2) It means roughly “It’s nice for me to see you look extremely handsome in your blue photo.” (He didn’t comment specifically on the non-blue version (“before”) photo, but I wouldn't take that personally.) ;)[/quote]

That would explain why I couldn't find a meaning of "sayrìp" anywhere hrh :D

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12905.msg323681#msg323681 date=1286233159]
The grammar uses the topical marker -ìri and that’s on the “photo”. The phrase «mì rel» (or «relmì», “in the photo/picture”) does not appear anywhere in what he said. This is a good reminder to us to not try to do “literal” translations directly from English all the time.[/quote]

A good reminder for all of us!

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12905.msg323681#msg323681 date=1286233159]
I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

    lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
    sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
    sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)

So, thank you ma Hufwe ta’em and ma Kxeyey (and, of course, ma K. Pawl), for the new word!
[/quote]

Personally I think it's cool that we now have ways to distinguish feminine beauty and masculine handsomeness. I think it would sound weird calling a man "beautiful" hrh. I always use handsome.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=323926 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 07:12:04 | u=631

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]First of all, thanks for sharing this information, ma Prrton ;)

And adding to the discussion: it says »primarily« – in my book that means that it is very likely to mean either/or in a particular case but is not restricted to this specific meaning…
Maybe a grown Na’vi hunter would look strange at you if you refered to him as sevin, but then again, it could also mean that you just mean a specific feature of him; it could be used for caring/intimite use; for children (“pretty little boy”) etc.



msg=323930 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 07:28:24 | u=5408

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Amaya

Keep in mind also that in English (although much less in 20th century usage - I'm thinking more L.M. Montgomery's writing style here, or Arthur Conan Doyle, if you're more familiar with him) the word "handsome" can refer to women also, just as "beautiful" can refer to men, it's more that "handsome" has an implied connotation of strength as well as a well-made form, while "beautiful" has an implied connotation of softness or gentleness along with that same well-made form.

By which I mean that a "handsome woman" might be tall, with a powerful upright carriage and a face which is symmetrical but perhaps more stern or in possession of particularly strong features, whereas a "beautiful man" would likely be, by most standards, somewhat effeminate.



msg=323957 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 09:45:21 | u=54

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Tiger

That's exactly my point... Calling one word beutiful for women and another handsome for masculine feels strongly like it is applying our cultural values. In our culture, it would indeed be strange for many men if they were called pretty, but the word is sevin, not pretty. Who says that it would be strange for a man to be called sevin?

What i am saying is that for there to be different words implies some different standard that they are to be held to, something i am not sure I see precedent for in the Na'vi. The only other word in Na'vi which is totally different based on gender is mother and father, but that is totally justifiable, as each IS held to a different role in the birth of a child by biology.

It still doesn't sit right with me having two words, but if it is to be, so be it.



msg=323973 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 10:36:36 | u=5408

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Amaya

Ah, but you see, the standards for attractiveness between males and females are different

And that's not cultural at all, that's biological.  So for me, having one word for "male-like attractiveness" and another word for "female-like attractiveness" makes perfect sense.  Just because the Na'vi have a more egalitarian society than our own, it doesn't mean they aren't aware of the differences between males and females, or that they aren't capable of expressing those differences with different words.

So I see where you're coming from, but I think your understanding of the implications of the words is a little...one-sided.

Sorry if that came out wrong. :-*  I'm a bit tired and having trouble mincing my words properly for an emphasis-poor forum such as the internet.




>.> and wow, apparently my level of formality rises in direct proportion to the state of exhaustion I'm functioning under.  Good to know, that. ::)



msg=324204 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 17:19:33 | u=54

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Tiger

OUR standards of attractiveness are different. Yes it is partly biological, but it is also evolutionary as to why they are the way they are. But our biology is different than theirs, as is our evolutionary path. So who is to say that their standards of attractiveness are equally different?

It would be interesting to look at how different languages and cultures on earth deal with this.



msg=324658 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-05 23:28:27 | u=430

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

TehMightyPirate

Eh, at the very least it makes it easier to understand it's usage in our culture. No more sevina Skxawng XD



msg=324723 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-06 00:13:34 | u=73

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=12905.msg324658#msg324658 date=1286321307]
Eh, at the very least it makes it easier to understand it's usage in our culture. No more sevina Skxawng XD
[/quote]

Awwww. Now that's just a shame. I think certain "legacy usages" should remain in force.  ::)



msg=324734 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-06 00:21:59 | u=21

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

wm.annis

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=12905.msg324658#msg324658 date=1286321307]
No more sevina Skxawng XD
[/quote]

But he has such flowing locks of hair!

Edit: I would also add, we may not want to read too much into this.  There are wildly sexist cultures that use the same word for handsome/beautiful (the ancient Greeks come to mind, in particular).

Most neolithic cultures, the frank inspiration for the Na'vi, are highly sex-segregated, which is sometimes rather slightly represented in a language, and other times pervades it utterly.  If anything, the Na'vi represent an imposition of very modern and western cultural values (gender equality) onto the already shaky "noble savage" meme.



msg=324925 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-06 04:45:07 | u=73

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Prrton


These are probably not really correct. I got most off Google translate, but I did check a lot of them by doing image searches.

It's interesting to see the variations:


\


msg=324927 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-06 05:00:34 | u=6582

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12905.msg324925#msg324925 date=1286340307]

These are probably not really correct. I got most off Google translate, but I did check a lot of them by doing image searches.

It's interesting to see the variations:


Lì'fya
\


msg=325160 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-06 15:09:15 | u=2873

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Skyinou

Well,
"belle" and "beau", in french, is the same adjective, hìtxoa ma Prrton  ;D



msg=325216 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-06 16:04:44 | u=1318

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

HTML_Earth

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=12905.msg324927#msg324927 date=1286341234]
BTW, isn't it wierd how the Danish word coincides with a word of Na'vi (the word for sibling)?
[/quote]

It may be spelled the same, but it doesn't sound the same.
If you were to spell it in Na'vi the way it's spoken in Danish it would be "smok". But that's still not quite the same sound.

Edit: I just remembered that the word for 7, "kinä" sounds just like the Danish way of saying China, "Kina". :P



msg=325246 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-06 16:50:23 | u=73

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Prrton

[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=12905.msg325160#msg325160 date=1286377755]
Well,
"belle" and "beau", in french, is the same adjective, hìtxoa ma Prrton  ;D
[/quote]

Txoari kea tìkin! It's equally interesting when they are the same and different.

The interesting thing is if/when men are « joli » and what exactly that means.

  ;)



msg=325558 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:24:29 | u=3552

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

tigermind

Love in Turkish is "sevmek"—so, "i love you" is "(ben) senin seviyorum.  The noun, though, is completely unrelated XD

Also, the word güzel is a little bit weird—it sorta means everything from "pretty" to "good, well done, nice..."  So, you'd use it not only for pretty women, but well-written books, a correct answer to a question, an appetizing meal...  It's kind of a catch-all positive adjective.



msg=325565 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:28:47 | u=73

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Prrton

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12905.msg325558#msg325558 date=1286411069]
Love in Turkish is "sevmek"—so, "i love you" is "(ben) senin seviyorum.  The noun, though, is completely unrelated XD

Also, the word güzel is a little bit weird—it sorta means everything from "pretty" to "good, well done, nice..."  So, you'd use it not only for pretty women, but well-written books, a correct answer to a question, an appetizing meal...  It's kind of a catch-all positive adjective.
[/quote]

Interesting. What SHOULD this one or these two adjectives (?) be for actual physical appearance in Turkish applied to men and women? Like I said, I just got this off of Google translate.



msg=325569 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:32:20 | u=3552

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

tigermind

Ma Prrton, i'm pretty sure güzel can be used for both, but yakışıklı is almost exclusively for men.



msg=325573 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:35:54 | u=73

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Prrton

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12905.msg325569#msg325569 date=1286411540]
Ma Prrton, i'm pretty sure güzel can be used for both, but yakışıklı is almost exclusively for men.
[/quote]

Thankies.  ;D




msg=325584 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:44:24 | u=54

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

Tiger

Point taken, I concede that in this case it makes sense to have two different words.



msg=398689 | topic=12905 | board=99 | time=2011-01-23 06:32:59 | u=679

Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

tshiuetin

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12905.msg323681#msg323681 date=1286233159]
The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too. This new tidbit is something little but nice before I get very busy with a new work project tomorrow.

Tsmukan Hufwe ta’em was aware that I was planning to show his avatarization done by the very very talented Tsmuke Kxeyey to K. Pawl over the weekend. K. Pawl also saw others by the very very talented Tsmuke Tìngay Mungeyä. He liked them all very much. But, Tsmukan Hufwe ta’em sent me “more than one PM mail” over the course of the weekend asking about his photo. ;)

[img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/sre-maw.jpg[/img]

This morning I explicitly asked K. Pawl what brief message he wanted to say to Tsm. Hufwe ta’em about the pic (seeing them both side by side. His response was:

    Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

There are two things that are particularly interesting about this (to me).

(1) It contains a new adjective «sayrìp» (“handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)), (2) It means roughly “It’s nice for me to see you look extremely handsome in your blue photo.” (He didn’t comment specifically on the non-blue version (“before”) photo, but I wouldn't take that personally.) ;)

The grammar uses the topical marker -ìri and that’s on the “photo”. The phrase «mì rel» (or «relmì», “in the photo/picture”) does not appear anywhere in what he said. This is a good reminder to us to not try to do “literal” translations directly from English all the time.

I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

    lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
    sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
    sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)

So, thank you ma Hufwe ta’em and ma Kxeyey (and, of course, ma K. Pawl), for the new word!


[/quote]
Only a little few  ::)



msg=325539 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-06 23:59:40 | u=21

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

wm.annis

Rather than crush everyone with a massive dump of information, we're going to spend the next two weeks or so making posts in the "Language updates" with a few items each post.  It'll give people a chance to assimilate everything new, as well as give other participants a chance to chime in if they remember some tidbit.  Several of us took notes, but no one of us caught everything.

You will recall that there was a poll in which you could vote for seven questions for Frommer.  Member Lance R. Casey collected and sorted the results, with a PDF available in [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/navi-language-workshop-the-poll-of-outstanding-questions/msg313139/#msg313139]this post[/url].  When you see something like "(#12)" at the head of a section, that refers to question 12 from the poll.  Remember that some items may have the same number, due to how the poling numbers worked out.

One thing I can say, that Frommer mentioned as part of another question but which make sense to just announce here, is: there will be no new infixes.  Any new grammar he creates will use other means.


Dates and Kinship (#4, #1)
We did discuss these issues somewhat, but both matters wander solidly into Cameron's territory, so Paul couldn't really decide much (as we expected).  One clear detail I recall, though, is that he approved of borrowing from English the names of months — for purely Human use — since these Latinate names are very widely used all over this planet.  Any other vocabulary of time needs to work sensibly with the Na'vi cultural context.


Transitivity and Infixes of Existing Verbs (#2)
He produced a list of all the verbs with infix locations and transitivity clarified.  He'll be sending that list to Taronyu to work into the dictionary.  I'll try to get a copy, too, to make sure the Wiki vocabulary is up to date, too.  

While Frommer likes the simplicity of the floating dot notation for marking infix location, it's a nuisance for him to type into his own records of Na'vi vocabulary.  So, he came up with his own system.  It takes two digits to indicate infix location, the first one indicating which syllable first position infixes go into, the second one indicating the location of the second position infixes (simple enough).  For example, 'efu is 12 — the first syllable ('e-) gets the first position infixes and the second (-fu) gets the second position infixes.  This is the usual pattern for non-compound verbs of two syllables, such as the ever popular taron.  

For another example: 'awstengyem join is 33 — all infixes go into the third syllable, -yem (that means this verb is a compound).  Some more interesting examples:

tsunslu 12
zoslu 22    (Note: fixed Oct 8 2010)
tungzup 12
emza'u 23 (transitive)
kllfro' 22 (intransitive)

Note that it's not entirely predictable where a compound verb is going to get its infixes.


Self/own (#2)
The question here is the ambiguity in "he cooked his dinner" — is "his dinner" someone else's or his own (referring to the subject of the sentence).  Most human languages have ways to distinguish this.  Now Na'vi does, too: sno (genitive sneyä) his/her/their own.  Notice that this word isn't changed for number.  Frommer's examples:

pol 'olem peyä wutsot He made his (i.e., someone else's) dinner.
pol 'olem sneyä wutsot He made his own dinner.

There was quite a bit of discussion with this.  There are a few open questions he wanted to think about.  First, is there other vocabulary derivable from the root sno?  Second, would sno/sneyä ever be used with the first or second person pronoun?  That is, which is better oel 'olem oeyä wutsot or oel 'olem sneyä wutsot? — some languages favor the first pattern, some the second.  Frommer seemed suspicious of using sno with anything but the third person ("his/her/their own"), but he made some notes to himself about it.  Stick with oel 'olem oeyä wutsot for now.



msg=325549 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:11:16 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taras

Thanks, ma wm :)

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12954.msg325539#msg325539 date=1286409580]
kllfro' 22 (intransitive)
[/quote]

I think it should be used with topic. For example:

  oe kllfro' pori
  I'm responsible for him

Is this correct?



msg=325563 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:28:22 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

tigermind

Ma Kemaweyan, fìsäfpìlìri tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu vewng
Kemaweyan, for this idea you can use the word vewng.



msg=325572 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:35:42 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12954.msg325549#msg325549 date=1286410276]  oe kllfro' pori
  I'm responsible for him
[/quote]

First, I'd almost always want to put the topical at the start of the clause.

Second, isn't there a line in the film where Mo'at uses this very word?



msg=325583 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:43:58 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taras

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12954.msg325572#msg325572 date=1286411742]
First, I'd almost always want to put the topical at the start of the clause.
[/quote]

I agree, but I think it isn't a rule :) We have free word order ;)

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12954.msg325572#msg325572 date=1286411742]
Second, isn't there a line in the film where Mo'at uses this very word?
[/quote]

I don't remember... Perhaps when she says to Neytiri to teach Jake, but I'm not sure..

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12954.msg325563#msg325563 date=1286411302]
Ma Kemaweyan, fìsäfpìlìri tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu vewng
Kemaweyan, for this idea you can use the word vewng.
[/quote]

Sran, slä livu ral teng nìwotx srak?
Yeah, but would the meaning to be the same?



msg=325587 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:46:32 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12954.msg325572#msg325572 date=1286411742]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12954.msg325549#msg325549 date=1286410276]  oe kllfro' pori
 I'm responsible for him
[/quote]

First, I'd almost always want to put the topical at the start of the clause.

Second, isn't there a line in the film where Mo'at uses this very word?
[/quote]

kllfro' and vewng have a lot of overlap. Vewng is transitive and specifically has the meaning of "look after/care for". I asked K. Pawl about kllfro' once and he said it simply means to be the bearer of responsibility. It does not carry the stigma of "being irresponsible" (character flaw).

If Jake had NOT become adept in the ways of the Na'vi, Neytiri would still bare the responsibility for that, but it would not mean that she did not actively vewng him in the process of his trying.

I have never properly parsed the "you will be responsible" line in my brain, so I'm not sure of the syntax.

O.F. would know

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



msg=325598 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 00:55:12 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taras

Oeri kop lamu fìsäfpìl a teri tìketeng, slä ke amomum oel fya'ot a tsari oeyktìng :) Ulte nìsung oe ke omum nìngay, tafral fpolìl futa tsaw tsun livu teng pxel melì'u alu hawnutìhawnu si. Irayo, ma Prrton.
I also had this idea about difference, but didn't know how to explain this :) And besides I was not sure, therefore assumed what these words can be the same like "hawnu" and "tìhawnu si". Thanks, ma Prrton.



msg=325604 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 01:01:23 | u=1317

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

So far the workshop seems to have been a success, just hoping Pawl didn't have to much to drink before making any decisions on the language.  ;D

On an unrelated note, anyone know if Pawl shows up in the Collector's Bluray?



msg=325632 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 01:40:37 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Prrton

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=12954.msg325604#msg325604 date=1286413283]
On an unrelated note, anyone know if Pawl shows up in the Collector's Bluray?
[/quote]

Who knows what will happen in the editing process... ? ? ?

Oel fpìl futa tsunslu fwa liven.[desc=Not out of the realm of possibility.]*[/desc]




msg=325778 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 03:39:35 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12954.msg325539#msg325539 date=1286409580]
Rather than crush everyone with a massive dump of information...
[/quote]

Personally, I don't mind the dump, but oe tslam.

Very nice info, and it seems that "sno" will come in quite useful.




msg=325864 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 06:47:55 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Ftu kxa K. Pawlä: « ye’rìn ’ìyi’a sänume a tsari kllfro’ oe » from the [url=http://masempul.org/2010/04/trr-%E2%80%99rrtaya-2/]Earth Day[/url] message.

Irayo, for the summary, ma wm.



msg=325891 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 08:17:29 | u=1746

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Carborundum

Thanks for the update ma William!
Regarding infixes, while looking through Ftiafpi's photo-album from the event, I noticed this picture:
[spoiler][IMG]http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/TehMightyPirate/2010%20Learn%20Navi%20Workshop/LearnNaviTrip065.jpg[/img][/spoiler]
And I was wondering if perhaps maybe there's an explanation of <ìm>+<ìy> to go with it?



msg=325910 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 08:59:08 | u=132

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taronyu

The explanation is this: That picture does not exist. Block it from your memory. It never happened. Neytiri messed up.

In other news, I'm not putting sno in the dictionary yet - I'm waiting for Frommer to post about it on his blog. I don't want to jump the gu on it's usage and definition, having remembered all of the issues we had with pum.



msg=325912 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 09:08:19 | u=1746

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Carborundum

Fair enough :-\\



msg=325913 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 09:12:55 | u=132

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taronyu

[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=12954.msg325912#msg325912 date=1286442499]
Fair enough :-\\
[/quote]

Aw, I don't mean to make that face happen.

Essentially, that was a goof. It makes sense, sort of, but it really should never have happened. So, let's all pretend it didn't. Frommer was quite specific in asking that no one take a picture of that. Naturally, we all did.



msg=325930 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 10:37:32 | u=4559

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Ctri

I'm liking this "gentle" approach to disseminating information from the workshop :D



msg=325954 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 12:22:37 | u=985

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Nyx

Tanks for the update!

I like sno, the English ambiguity is a little annoying sometimes.



msg=325985 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 14:00:04 | u=2788

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Lance R. Casey

Yeah. To us Scandinavians, the peyä/sneyä distinction is quite natural and expected. ;)



msg=326013 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 14:38:39 | u=430

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

TehMightyPirate

Yeah, I totally took a picture of the evil word.  8)

But, Taronyu is correct, that infix doesn't exist and the use of it in the film has been relegated to an error (Neytiri stuttered or something).



msg=326302 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 19:51:30 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Saying something like 'don't take a picture of that', with that group of folks, is like saying, 'everyone, please take a picture'  :o



msg=326330 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 20:49:11 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12954.msg325583#msg325583 date=1286412238]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12954.msg325572#msg325572 date=1286411742]
First, I'd almost always want to put the topical at the start of the clause.
[/quote]

I agree, but I think it isn't a rule :) We have free word order ;)
[/quote]

Sort of.  There are still strong word order habits Paul has, and putting the topic at the beginning is a very strong one of his.  It is broken only once, in a poem (the Hunt Song).  Even when using the topical for inalienable possession, when you'd most expect the topical to shift, it still sits at the start of the clause some distance from the possessum:

  oeri ta peyä fahew akewong ontu teya längu
  oeri nì'i'a tsyokx zoslolu

In Human languages that have formal topical marking, it is very common for them to move to the head of the clause.



msg=326623 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 02:50:35 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taras

It's just my idea. I've analyzed all last changes and I think the common rule of infix position may be thus:

If the verb have two or more syllables, there can change only those syllables which came from verb root(s).

For example, the verb tsunslu consists two syllables which are verb roots tsun and slu (both are verbs). So we may put infixes in the both syllables. But the verb pänutìng consists one verb root tìng and noun root pänu, therefore all infixes must be only in second syllable (which is verb root). Your thoughts?



msg=326631 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 02:56:29 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

tigermind

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12954.msg326623#msg326623 date=1286506235]
It's just my idea. I've analyzed all last changes and I think the common rule of infix position may be thus:

If the verb have two or more syllables, there can change only those syllables which came from verb root(s).

For example, the verb tsunslu consists two syllables which are verb roots tsun and slu (both are verbs). So we may put infixes in the both syllables. But the verb pänutìng consists one verb root tìng and noun root pänu, therefore all infixes must be only in second syllable (which is verb root). Your thoughts?
[/quote]

That's often true, but...

oh hell.

I have in my notes that zoslu has all the infixes in the last syllable, but William has it here as a 1-2 verb.

Ma William...?



msg=326637 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 03:01:25 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taras

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12954.msg326631#msg326631 date=1286506589]
but William has it here as a 1-2 verb.
[/quote]

Yeah, it was the reason why I think so. In his blog Pawl also wrote zosl●●u and if it was changed.. But now I don't know, if you have zosl●●u too...



msg=326648 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 03:15:44 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Prrton

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12954.msg326631#msg326631 date=1286506589]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12954.msg326623#msg326623 date=1286506235]
It's just my idea. I've analyzed all last changes and I think the common rule of infix position may be thus:

If the verb have two or more syllables, there can change only those syllables which came from verb root(s).

For example, the verb tsunslu consists two syllables which are verb roots tsun and slu (both are verbs). So we may put infixes in the both syllables. But the verb pänutìng consists one verb root tìng and noun root pänu, therefore all infixes must be only in second syllable (which is verb root). Your thoughts?
[/quote]

That's often true, but...

oh hell.

I have in my notes that zoslu has all the infixes in the last syllable, but William has it here as a 1-2 verb.

Ma William...?
[/quote]

There are cases like «tungzup» where «.zup» functions like a non-verbal element (the object of the "allowing") in which Paul has said to me that the infixes would go into the verbal side («t••ung.») only. That's not the way it's marked in the vocabulary here. It seems that it's the other way around as documented here. Was «tungzup» clarified over the weekend?

If there is clearly a non-verbal element (like «pänu»), all of the infixes will go in the opposite (verbal) part of the word.

The new verb [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/09/getting-to-know-you-part-1/]«muwìntxu» (23)[/url] is derived ultimately from «mu(nge)+wìntxu». All of the infixes go in «w•ìntx•u».

I believe that «zosl••u» (22) is correct in this fashion.





msg=326652 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 03:20:59 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

tigermind

Okay, so to clarify:

When a verb is a compound, you absolutely cannot have infixes in non-verb bits.  But when it's a compound of multiple verbs, infixes can usually go in both, but it's unpredictable.  Kefyak?

And as for the individual verbs...we'll wait on the document, which i believe Karyu Pawl said he's going to give to Taronyu.



msg=326654 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 03:22:55 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taras

There was t 1 ngz 2 up on the whiteboard ??? As for verb muwìntxu - that's clear: this verb has 3 syllables, so by common rule only last and pre-last ones can be changed.



msg=326657 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 03:30:38 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12954.msg326654#msg326654 date=1286508175]
There was t 1 ngz 2 up on the whiteboard ??? As for verb muwìntxu - that's clear: this verb has 3 syllables, so by common rule only last and pre-last ones can be changed.
[/quote]

Perhaps he's changed his mind about «t•ung.z•up» (12), then. Whatever he said over the weekend should be taken as current and correct.




msg=326665 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 03:57:02 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Prrton


Here he's explaining that because both elements of tsunslu are verbal, it's a 12.

[img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/tsunslu12.jpg[/img]

The KLL element of kllfro' is nominal ('ground') so it's a 22.

[img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/kllfro23.jpg[/img]



msg=326666 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 04:01:28 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

tigermind

A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say  ;)



msg=326846 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 12:32:20 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

wm.annis

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12954.msg326631#msg326631 date=1286506589]I have in my notes that zoslu has all the infixes in the last syllable, but William has it here as a 1-2 verb.

Ma William...?
[/quote]

Ngaytxoa.  That is a terrible, terrible typo on my part.  Zoslu is 22.  I may have had tsunslu on the brain.  Fixed in the main post.

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12954.msg326652#msg326652 date=1286508059]
And as for the individual verbs...we'll wait on the document, which i believe Karyu Pawl said he's going to give to Taronyu.
[/quote]

Both Taronyu and I have a copy of that now.  Not yet sure how it'll be integrated into the main dictionary/ies.



msg=326876 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 13:31:55 | u=2788

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Lance R. Casey

How big a workload would it be to sift out the non-trivial ones, for separate listing hereabouts?



msg=327174 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 19:59:11 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Okay … if it isn’t decided yet if sno can appear in other instances, is it then even possible that it would appear in this form ever alone? I can’t put my head around other uses than sneyä with its current meaning…

Ideas?



msg=327198 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:10:28 | u=985

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Nyx

Maybe it could be used in some kind of relative clause where you can't omit the pronoun but still want to avoid ambiguity?



msg=327209 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:21:35 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taras

I understand sno as a pointer to person who commits the action. So if I'm talking about me, sno is a pointer to me:

  oe kä ne kelku sneyä
  I go to my home

The same is with "you":

  nga kä ne kelku sneyä
  you go to your home

I think there is no difference between oeyä/ngeyä and sneyä in this case, i.e. meaning of phrases oe kä ne kelku sneyä and oe kä ne kelku oeyä is the same.

Also with "he/she" sno indicates to the same person who commits an action:

  po kä ne kelku sneyä
  he go to his own home

Besides if I speak about many people (fo), sno indicates to everyone of them:

  fo kä ne helku sneyä
  they go to their own homes (everyone of them goes to his own home)

And there would be another meaning if I use feyä:

  fo kä ne helku feyä
  they go to their homes

I think it means that homes are their common.

P.S. It's just my opinion ;) Maybe I think so because the same is in other languages which I know :)



msg=327219 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:27:01 | u=2788

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=12954.msg327174#msg327174 date=1286567951]
[font=Georgia]Okay … if it isn’t decided yet if sno can appear in other instances, is it then even possible that it would appear in this form ever alone? I can’t put my head around other uses than sneyä with its current meaning…

Ideas?

[/quote]

Aysäfpìlo:

Fìtskot oel ngerop snofpi
Plltxe nga snohu srak?
Poel kä'olärìp poanti ftu sno neto



msg=327223 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:28:54 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Taras

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12954.msg327219#msg327219 date=1286569621]
Aysäfpìlo:

Fìtskot oel ngerop snofpi
Plltxe nga snohu srak?
Poel kä'olärìp poanti ftu sno neto
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that's right! ;)



msg=327229 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:32:43 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Irayo, ma Kem – ke lu lì’u alu sneyä a oeru lu tìngäzìk ki lì’u alu sno ;) Tslolam sneyä nìwotx
Thanks, Kem – it’s not sneyä I’m having the problem with, but sno ;) I understand sneyä just fine.

My point is, that it seems (at least for now, where sno has no other derivatives) that you cannot have a sentence in which the form »sno« appears, right?

edit: Ma Lance … txantsana pxesìkenong!
Sounds plausible to me … and interesting examples. Thanks ;)




msg=327251 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:50:51 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=12954.msg327174#msg327174 date=1286567951]
Okay … if it isn’t decided yet if sno can appear in other instances, is it then even possible that it would appear in this form ever alone? I can’t put my head around other uses than sneyä with its current meaning…[/quote]

Several of these issues were discussed during the workshop.

I specifically asked about using sno with first or second person antecedents.  As I recall, Frommer made a face, though he didn't rule it out entirely, at least not yet.

In some languages reflexive pronouns can have interesting jobs in subordinate clauses.  "He knows that he will die."  Who is the second "he"?  It's the same problem as the issue of the dinner.

  pol omum futa po tayerkup (someone else will die)
  ?* pol omum futa sno tayerkup (same as the subject)

Again, I mentioned this during the workshop, though I don't know if Frommer wrote all of this down.

I personally would avoid everything but sneyä with a 3rd person antecedent for now, until Frommer has time to cogitate more about the other issues we raised.



msg=327253 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:52:58 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

tigermind

Edit: Ninja'd by William, but here's what i wrote.

Ma Lance, ngeyä aysìhenong txantsan lu, irayo.
Lance, your examples are excellent, thanks.

Ma Kemaweyan, fpìl oel futa ngaru tìyawr, slä...
Kemaweyan, i think you're right, but...

Hìtxoa, fìtxeleri plltxe nìNa'vi a fì'u, oeru lu ngäzìk nìhawng.  Lu oeru tìkin a plltxe nì'Ìnglìsì.
Sorry, talking about this topic in Na'vi is too difficult for me.  I need to speak in English.

We discussed at the meeting something like your examples, "Fo kä ne kelku feyä" vs. "Fo kä ne kelku sneyä," and whether the second contains the suggestion that the house belongs to all of the people, whereas the first means that each person went to his own house.  I don't know if we reached a conclusion, though.

Tuteol tsati zerok srak?
Does someone remember?



msg=327290 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 21:30:56 | u=2788

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12954.msg327253#msg327253 date=1286571178]
We discussed at the meeting something like your examples, "Fo kä ne kelku feyä" vs. "Fo kä ne kelku sneyä," and whether the second contains the suggestion that the house belongs to all of the people, whereas the first means that each person went to his own house.  I don't know if we reached a conclusion, though.

Tuteol tsati zerok srak?
Does someone remember?
[/quote]

The example used was fol 'olem sneyä wutsot, with an ambiguity between "their own individual meals" and "meals for all of them", and as far as I can make out Frommer thought that it would stay unresolved, "just as it is in English".



msg=327438 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 23:30:00 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12954.msg327251#msg327251 date=1286571051]

I personally would avoid everything but sneyä with a 3rd person antecedent for now, until Frommer has time to cogitate more about the other issues we raised.
[/quote]

I am in complete agreement with this sentiment.

I believe that K. Pawl is very uncomfortable (as of last weekend) with sneyä being used outside of the context of the 3rd person singular and plural.

I can come up with LOTS of other ways that it MIGHT work in other forms, but the jury (= *the judge*) is still out.

Here are some of the things that I personally feel still need addressing:

  - They gave each other gifts.
    (Fol *snor aystxelit tolìng.)

  - The child's request was quite clear. She said, "I want my OWN teylu!"
    (Ätxäle 'eviyä law lolu nìwotx. Poltxe san new oel teyluti oeyä *NÌSNO!

    She has not learned to share well yet.  ;)

Please note that these Na'vi 'solutions' are NOT approved by K. Pawl and may never be in these (or even other) forms.




msg=327516 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 01:10:40 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

wm.annis

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12954.msg326876#msg326876 date=1286544715]
How big a workload would it be to sift out the non-trivial ones, for separate listing hereabouts?
[/quote]

Easy, but we're still waiting for a few transitivity rulings — we did ask for both.  :)



msg=327681 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 06:05:13 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=12954.msg327438#msg327438 date=1286580600]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12954.msg327251#msg327251 date=1286571051]

I personally would avoid everything but sneyä with a 3rd person antecedent for now, until Frommer has time to cogitate more about the other issues we raised.
[/quote]

I am in complete agreement with this sentiment.
[…]
Here are some of the things that I personally feel still need addressing:

  - They gave each other gifts.
    (Fol *snor aystxelit tolìng.)[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Agreed ;)

Well, as I remember that was my question whether there would be a solution for »each other« – also to contrust between “they saw themselves (in the mirror)” (clearly a case for ‹äp›) and “they saw each other”. The way I understood it, he wanted to think about it…



msg=327813 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 14:45:14 | u=1620

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

dontbugme

what about fko? can sno be used with it?
it's the pronoun that is the most similar to po i think.

i know, probably you don't have any confirmation about that but do you think it behaves similar?



msg=327887 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 17:21:32 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

wm.annis

[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=12954.msg327813#msg327813 date=1286635514]
what about fko? can sno be used with it?
it's the pronoun that is the most similar to po i think.
[/quote]

Fkol 'ayem sneyä aywutsot "One will prepare one's own meals."

I can think of no reason this wouldn't be allowed.



msg=327899 | topic=12954 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 17:26:54 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12954.msg327887#msg327887 date=1286644892]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=12954.msg327813#msg327813 date=1286635514]
what about fko? can sno be used with it?
it's the pronoun that is the most similar to po i think.
[/quote]

Fkol 'ayem sneyä aywutsot "One will prepare one's own meals."

I can think of no reason this wouldn't be allowed.
[/quote]

I agree with Tsm. Wm. that it could easily go that way, but I also wrote this on the board at one point and didn't get any "pushback":

  Fkor lora 'u fkeyä.

I'm not sure what the semantic difference would be if sneyä were in there in lieu of fkeyä.

It would throw off the sounds of it quite a bit, though. And that was one of the main reasons for that phrase to exist in the first place.




msg=325929 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 10:23:08 | u=132

Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Taronyu

I have two new words to announce. :)

rìp: n. pa'li lead, rein (RL, PF)

[img]http://www.pandorapedia.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/508x284/direhorse_lead_1.jpg[/img]


ìpxa: n. fern (RL, PF)

[img]http://gardenblog.projo.com/5-19-fern-in-bright-light.jpg[/img]


Säzärìp comes from a suggestion I made for the lead, back when I was trying to change the ASG words into something legal. Ìpxa, though, has a much more cool history. See here:

[quote=Frommer]Thinking about it more, I like that form because it illustrates a diachronic phonetic change we haven’t yet seen: ay à a . (This is assuming the origin of the word involved hì’i + pxay, which seems reasonable, given the “small” and “many” qualities of ferns that you mentioned, Prrton.)

ay à a ( or a: ), including in word-final position, is attested in many languages. In certain kinds of Southern American English, for example, you have “I” and “my” pronounced “ah” and “mah” respectively. And my paternal grandmother, in her non-standard Galician Yiddish, pronounced the standard word [haynt] ‘today’ as [ha:nt].

Plus ìpxa preserves the beer/phonetics origin more clearly than ìpxay.[/quote]

As far as the etymology for fern goes, it comes from two things: the IPA, which is the International Phonetics Alphabet (I use it in the Dictionary.) The other etyma is a beer:

[img]http://thefullpint.com/main/logos/russianriver.gif[/img]

Pawl and I both had an IPA draught of this - IPA stands for India Pale Ale. And there you have it. I had said earlier that I like ejectives, and that I wanted a word for 'fern', and that it ought to start with 'ì' because so little words do. When Pawl heard me order a drink, the word was suggested. Best etymology ever. :D




msg=325957 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 12:32:30 | u=985

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxay sì Säzärìp

Nyx

Nice! xD That makes much more sense than it coming from hì'i and pxay  ::)

(You wrote "ìpxay" right before your quote though)



msg=325958 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 12:35:07 | u=132

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Taronyu

Good catch. Oe lu skxawng! Fixed. :P



msg=325959 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 12:37:50 | u=5139

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Hrrap

ìpxa lu yawne oer. Tsatsenget tsalì'ut a ìpxa nolokx lu yawne oer nìteng..



msg=325960 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 12:39:59 | u=1975

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Ean Tirea

WIN

nì'i'a a word for FERN...AND it has such an awesome etymology. NICE.



msg=325976 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 13:34:59 | u=4325

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Nawma Ngawng

Best. Etymology. Evar.  <3



msg=326132 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 16:35:56 | u=3552

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

tigermind

Txantsan!  Lì'ul alu ìpxa Prrtonit 'eykayefatsu nitram nìtxan  :D

Edit:  Leykolatem kxeyeyit ahì'i.  Irayo, ma Kemaweyan.



msg=326139 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 16:47:17 | u=1550

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Taras

Irayo, ma Taronyu :)

Ma Kì'eyawn, nga namew pamrel sivi san lì'ul sìk, kefyak? ;)



msg=326149 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 16:58:26 | u=3552

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

tigermind

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=12964.msg326139#msg326139 date=1286470037]
Ma Kì'eyawn, nga namew pamrel sivi san lì'ul sìk, kefyak? ;)
[/quote]

Srane, hìtxoa.  Ke fparmängìl oe...  Tsati leykìyatem oel.



msg=326153 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 17:00:58 | u=54

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Tiger

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=12964.msg325960#msg325960 date=1286455199]
WIN

nì'i'a a word for FERN...AND it has such an awesome etymology. NICE.
[/quote]Srak tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu nì'i'a nìtsafya?



msg=326158 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 17:06:27 | u=1975

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Ean Tirea

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=12964.msg326153#msg326153 date=1286470858]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=12964.msg325960#msg325960 date=1286455199]
WIN

nì'i'a a word for FERN...AND it has such an awesome etymology. NICE.
[/quote]Srak tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu nì'i'a nìtsafya?
[/quote]

srake tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu nìtsafya tsafya? HRH



msg=326309 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 19:59:47 | u=4754

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Txantsan nang Both terms are really cool. I like the ä sound. And as a student of biology, I appreciate it any time we get new botanical/zoological terms.

It makes me wonder though, if there aren't plant types on Pandora that cannot be properly described with our terms for plants (a fern is something very specific). Specifically, I wonder if there is anything similar there to an `Rrta 'orchid'.



msg=326311 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 20:11:52 | u=54

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Tiger

[quote author=Spirit Blue link=topic=12964.msg326158#msg326158 date=1286471187]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=12964.msg326153#msg326153 date=1286470858]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=12964.msg325960#msg325960 date=1286455199]
WIN

nì'i'a a word for FERN...AND it has such an awesome etymology. NICE.
[/quote]Srak tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu nì'i'a nìtsafya?
[/quote]

srake tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu nìtsafya tsafya? HRH
[/quote]
Tsa'u ke lu oeyä tìpawm...

Lì'u alu nì'i'a ke ke lam eyawr oeru....  Ngeyä rel lu nì'ìnglìsì finally, slä fpìl oel futa tsalì'u nì'ìnglìsì slu conclusively.  Ngal tsole'a tìsarit aketeng srak?



msg=326313 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 20:18:12 | u=1746

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Carborundum

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=12964.msg326311#msg326311 date=1286482312]
[quote author=Spirit Blue link=topic=12964.msg326158#msg326158 date=1286471187]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=12964.msg326153#msg326153 date=1286470858]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=12964.msg325960#msg325960 date=1286455199]
WIN

nì'i'a a word for FERN...AND it has such an awesome etymology. NICE.
[/quote]Srak tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu nì'i'a nìtsafya?
[/quote]

srake tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu nìtsafya tsafya? HRH
[/quote]
Tsa'u ke lu oeyä tìpawm...

Lì'u alu nì'i'a ke ke lam eyawr oeru....  Ngeyä rel lu nì'ìnglìsì finally, slä fpìl oel futa tsalì'u nì'ìnglìsì slu conclusively.  Ngal tsole'a tìsarit aketeng srak?
[/quote][url=http://naviteri.org/2010/07/vocabulary-update/]http://naviteri.org/2010/07/vocabulary-update/[/url]
[quote=Frommer]Oeri nì’i’a tsyokx zoslolu. ‘My hand is finally healed.’[/quote]



msg=326317 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 20:22:06 | u=54

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Tiger

Irayo, tsatìkenongit oel nìlmew.



msg=326320 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 20:33:18 | u=132

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

Taronyu

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=12964.msg326309#msg326309 date=1286481587]
Specifically, I wonder if there is anything similar there to an `Rrta 'orchid'.
[/quote]

[url=http://www.pandorapedia.com/flora/other/pseudocenia_equina]Pseudocenia Equina[/url]
[url=http://www.pandorapedia.com/flora/other/pandorchidus_insectoralis]Pandorchidus Insectoralis[/url]



msg=326653 | topic=12964 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 03:22:24 | u=4754

Re: Melì'u amip: Ìpxa sì Säzärìp

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=12964.msg326320#msg326320 date=1286483598]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=12964.msg326309#msg326309 date=1286481587]
Specifically, I wonder if there is anything similar there to an `Rrta 'orchid'.
[/quote]

[url=http://www.pandorapedia.com/flora/other/pseudocenia_equina]Pseudocenia Equina[/url]
[url=http://www.pandorapedia.com/flora/other/pandorchidus_insectoralis]Pandorchidus Insectoralis[/url]
[/quote]

Thank you for those links. I don't believe I have seen this information before.
What makes an orchid an orchid isn't so much specialized pollination by a specific pollinator as does certain structures in the flower that are common to all orchids, no matter how different their flowers are. Although they are the largest family of plants, orchids are technically members of the lily superfamily. And although there are orchids designed to be pollinated by just one animal (almost all insects), many orchids can be pollinated by a wide variety of animals. We see pseudocenia_equina in the film, and pa`li drinking from them. They are almost certainly not orchids. There is no picture of pandorchidus_insectoralis shown, but the description strongly suggests it could be a type of orchid in the sense we sawtute understand them.



msg=326362 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 21:24:20 | u=2788

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Lance R. Casey

Here follow the answers to the rest of the "Top 7" of the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/navi-language-workshop-the-poll-of-outstanding-questions/]Outstanding Questions[/url], as numbered in the PDF accessible [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/navi-language-workshop-the-poll-of-outstanding-questions/msg313139/#msg313139]here[/url]. (Frommerian examples are here marked with blue.)


Asking/giving permission (#5)

As suggested, tsun can work for both. So, for example:

\



msg=326373 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-07 21:43:17 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Taras

Irayo ;)



msg=326662 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 03:52:44 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

lapo lesxkxawng

Really fascinating info.  With nìn/tìng nari, I thought the difference would be similar to why stawm/tìng mikyun in different.

I also see why the odd-ish constructions: much ado teri verb transitivity.

...and W O U :o  "na" and "pxel" are actually synonymous, with absolutely no distinguishing factor.


As for the stops, it is a real curiosity that they are released in such a position in flowing speech, especially considering this example from the movie: {[desc="Pot zamunge", with an unreleased t.]pot̚ zamuŋɛ[/desc]}.  I am also curious as to whether or not they are released in formal speech (I would suspect not...).




msg=326669 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 04:03:42 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

tigermind

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=12978.msg326662#msg326662 date=1286509964]
As for the stops, it is a real curiosity that they are released in such a position in flowing speech, especially considering this example from the movie: {[desc="Pot zamunge", with an unreleased t.]pot̚ zamuŋɛ[/desc]}.  I am also curious as to whether or not they are released in formal speech (I would suspect not...).[/quote]

From a discussion had (i think) around the dinner table, i got that one doesn't really speak of glottal stops being released or unreleased.  When you get to a glottal stop, you stop.  When that stop is followed by a vowel, it's heard very clearly; but when it's followed by another consonant, it's more difficult to distinguish.

Ngaytxoa if i misunderstood, ma smuktu.



msg=326686 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 04:16:15 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12978.msg326669#msg326669 date=1286510622]
... speak of glottal stops being released or unreleased...
[/quote]

...but I'm also talking about all four of the non-ejective stops here: {p}, {t}, {k}, {ʔ}.  My question concerns whether or not they are released between words in the same sentence for formal speech, e.g. the T in "yerikit oel tspang".




msg=326705 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 04:28:12 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

tigermind

Tam, tslolam.

Hmm...  I'd say it depends on how slowly you're speaking.  The more you slow down, the less likely you are to elide things together.

I can tell you that, for us ayskxawng at the meeting this weekend, i sometimes deliberately used the long forms of case endings to make myself more easily understood.  It's possible more formal speech defaults to long forms.



msg=326732 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 04:51:51 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

lapo lesxkxawng

...and how about when you have to use the long case marking "-it"?  See sentence above again...

...or, if the sentence were simply "yerik lu po", what would happen to the K in formal speech?




msg=326767 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 06:57:06 | u=1225

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

neotrekkerz

[quote]Oel kin syuvet fte rivey I need food to live
Awngaru lu tìkin a nume nì'ul We need to learn more [/quote]

Did you happen to find out which form to use if you wanted to say something like We need you to learn more?  I'm guessing it's the 2nd one, but I want to make sure.



msg=326821 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 11:27:07 | u=2788

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=12978.msg326767#msg326767 date=1286521026]
[quote]Oel kin syuvet fte rivey I need food to live
Awngaru lu tìkin a nume nì'ul We need to learn more [/quote]

Did you happen to find out which form to use if you wanted to say something like We need you to learn more?  I'm guessing it's the 2nd one, but I want to make sure.
[/quote]

Not explicitly, but kin as a modal verb (*oe kin kivä) was ruled out, and its scope restricted to objects:

[quote=K. Pawl]If you wanna say "I need to go", you can't just use the verb kin. You have to say lu oeru tìkin a.[/quote]



msg=326919 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 14:50:02 | u=430

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

TehMightyPirate

The released stops is so excellent and totally unexpected. It makes a lot of sense though and I like it a lot, really makes it easier to speak fluidly.



msg=327121 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 19:39:57 | u=985

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Nyx

Thanks for this update, interesting stuff :)



msg=327181 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:01:25 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Eltur tìtxen si, ma Lance… irayo

Alright, if way is traditional and tìrol is vocal only, do we expect to be there yet another word that would include vocal and instrumental music?



msg=327238 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:38:32 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

tigermind

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=12978.msg327181#msg327181 date=1286568085]
[font=Georgia]Eltur tìtxen si, ma Lance… irayo

Alright, if way is traditional and tìrol is vocal only, do we expect to be there yet another word that would include vocal and instrumental music?

[/quote]

The question of instrumental music did come up.  For now, we know that pamtseo can refer to any kind of music; as for an actual "song" with no sung component, we don't have a word—yet.



msg=327244 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:44:41 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Hìtxoa, but I seem to have an ekxan in my brain, today …
Maybe I’m misinterpreting the definitions here, ma Lawren… So, please, help me out if you can. Take, Leona Lewis’ “I see you” for example … it’s pamtseo, that much is clear. It’s not a way because it was composed in the not-so-distant past. But the way, I understand it, it can’t be tìrol now, because it’s not only instrumental but it is sung as well … ???



msg=327257 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-08 20:56:47 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

tigermind

Ma Plumps, i'm not sure that it can't be a tìrol...  A tìrol has to be sung at least, but i don't know that it must be sung only—does that make sense?

Taronyu may have a more definitive answer, but this is my feeling.



msg=327523 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 01:21:45 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Prrton

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12978.msg327257#msg327257 date=1286571407]
Ma Plumps, i'm not sure that it can't be a tìrol...  A tìrol has to be sung at least, but i don't know that it must be sung only—does that make sense?

Taronyu may have a more definitive answer, but this is my feeling.
[/quote]

Tì'efumì oeyä lu tsa'u tìpawmluke lawa tìkenong tìrolä.[desc=I'm very confident that that's a clear example of a «tìrol».]*[/desc]




msg=327561 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 02:31:06 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=12978.msg326919#msg326919 date=1286549402]
The released stops is so excellent and totally unexpected. It makes a lot of sense though and I like it a lot, really makes it easier to speak fluidly.
[/quote]

...and in slower formalized speech?!?!?!?!?!?!?





msg=327633 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 04:09:43 | u=1975

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=12978.msg327561#msg327561 date=1286591466]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=12978.msg326919#msg326919 date=1286549402]
The released stops is so excellent and totally unexpected. It makes a lot of sense though and I like it a lot, really makes it easier to speak fluidly.
[/quote]

...and in slower formalized speech?!?!?!?!?!?!?



[/quote]

what do you THINK happens. most likely the unreleasedness comes back. wow.

EDIT: not meant as harsh as it sounds, like the quote which it is a response to



msg=327637 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 04:15:09 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=12978.msg327633#msg327633 date=1286597383]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=12978.msg327561#msg327561 date=1286591466]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=12978.msg326919#msg326919 date=1286549402]
The released stops is so excellent and totally unexpected. It makes a lot of sense though and I like it a lot, really makes it easier to speak fluidly.
[/quote]

...and in slower formalized speech?!?!?!?!?!?!?



[/quote]

what do you THINK happens. most likely the unreleasedness comes back. wow.
[/quote]

Irayo.  Even a with simple answer like that, oe mivawey.




msg=327640 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 04:21:29 | u=1975

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=12978.msg327637#msg327637 date=1286597709]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=12978.msg327633#msg327633 date=1286597383]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=12978.msg327561#msg327561 date=1286591466]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=12978.msg326919#msg326919 date=1286549402]
The released stops is so excellent and totally unexpected. It makes a lot of sense though and I like it a lot, really makes it easier to speak fluidly.
[/quote]

...and in slower formalized speech?!?!?!?!?!?!?



[/quote]

what do you THINK happens. most likely the unreleasedness comes back. wow.
[/quote]

Irayo.  Even a with simple answer like that, oe mivawey.


[/quote]

ok that was mean. Tsari tsap'alute.

what i really mean to say is: Tì'efumì oeyä,

logic tells me that if the unreleased goes away for sake of flow and fast-speech phenomenon, then it will come back when deliberately trying to be slow and clear.

we were talking at the ultxa sometime about people learning English as second langauge and stuff like shoulda coulda woulda gonna and how they are results of fast speech and flow, where as if you were to be clear you would say should have, could have, would have, going to, etc. not sure the relevance, but just my eighth of a cent. ;D



msg=327649 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 04:36:38 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote=Tirea Aean in TS]<22:32:51> "Tirea Aean": of course none of this is canon as I do not make the rules around these parts
<22:33:19> "Tirea Aean": just my speculation on the matter, stating wht i believe makes sense[/quote]

Hmm... >.<

(Wonders at his own pace for now...)




msg=327683 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 06:08:04 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Plumps83

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12978.msg327257#msg327257 date=1286571407]
Ma Plumps, i'm not sure that it can't be a tìrol...  A tìrol has to be sung at least, but i don't know that it must be sung only—does that make sense?[/quote]

[font=Georgia]It does – thank you, ma Lawren ;)



msg=327724 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 10:45:57 | u=3648

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Anubis

bookmarked....



msg=330487 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 02:15:00 | u=0

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12978.msg326362#msg326362 date=1286486660]
  • Na'vi does not have double or long vowels naturally, but they can arise as the result of affixing. In writing, this is marked with a hyphen: oe-eo before me, zekwä-äo under the finger, fya'o-o some way

[/quote]

Just a thought, if not already brought up, why could this idea NOT work with the adjectival attributive marker? Apxa-a utral, perhaps? Someone, please ask Frommer if this could work...



msg=330493 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 02:34:19 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

wm.annis

[quote author=Ìngkoruptusì link=topic=12978.msg330487#msg330487 date=1286849700]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=12978.msg326362#msg326362 date=1286486660]
  • Na'vi does not have double or long vowels naturally, but they can arise as the result of affixing. In writing, this is marked with a hyphen: oe-eo before me, zekwä-äo under the finger, fya'o-o some way

[/quote]

Just a thought, if not already brought up, why could this idea NOT work with the adjectival attributive marker? Apxa-a utral, perhaps? Someone, please ask Frommer if this could work...
[/quote]

He has already said that attributive -a- doesn't work this way.  In the situation of adpositions and indefinite -o, these suffixed forms are content-bearing.  Dropping one of them is a serious change in meaning.  Loss of attributive -a- on a single adjective is at worst potentially ambiguous from time to time.



msg=330741 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 15:04:13 | u=0

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12978.msg330493#msg330493 date=1286850859]
He has already said that attributive -a- doesn't work this way.  In the situation of adpositions and indefinite -o, these suffixed forms are content-bearing.  Dropping one of them is a serious change in meaning.  Loss of attributive -a- on a single adjective is at worst potentially ambiguous from time to time.
[/quote]

Yeah, I figured all that. It seemed like it could complete something which had bothered me; Frommer appeared to have discoveed how to fix many things with this one idea, but hey...



msg=330775 | topic=12978 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 15:55:55 | u=430

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #2: The rest of the Top 7

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=12978.msg327640#msg327640 date=1286598089]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=12978.msg327637#msg327637 date=1286597709]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=12978.msg327633#msg327633 date=1286597383]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=12978.msg327561#msg327561 date=1286591466]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=12978.msg326919#msg326919 date=1286549402]
The released stops is so excellent and totally unexpected. It makes a lot of sense though and I like it a lot, really makes it easier to speak fluidly.
[/quote]

...and in slower formalized speech?!?!?!?!?!?!?



[/quote]

what do you THINK happens. most likely the unreleasedness comes back. wow.
[/quote]

Irayo.  Even a with simple answer like that, oe mivawey.


[/quote]

ok that was mean. Tsari tsap'alute.

what i really mean to say is: Tì'efumì oeyä,

logic tells me that if the unreleased goes away for sake of flow and fast-speech phenomenon, then it will come back when deliberately trying to be slow and clear.

we were talking at the ultxa sometime about people learning English as second langauge and stuff like shoulda coulda woulda gonna and how they are results of fast speech and flow, where as if you were to be clear you would say should have, could have, would have, going to, etc. not sure the relevance, but just my eighth of a cent. ;D
[/quote]
Yeah, I want to second this. I remember that discussion and Frommer directly relating the released stops to English's "shoulda coulda woulda". I'd say it's a fairly good assumption to think that the stops would return to unreleased if one was to try to speak as clearly as possible.



msg=327513 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 01:07:46 | u=21

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

wm.annis

This post finishes out the Saturday morning session, though I've thrown in a few other details that don't go anywhere else.  This one is more chatty, less about the details of grammar.


Proverbs

We had an extended chat about proverbs.  Nothing was really firmly decided, but a number of points did come up.

1. They should reflect the culture.
2. They should be useful in everyday situations.
3. The form matters, too.  He gave the example of a Persian proverb, "everything that's round is not a walnut," which sounds better in Persian because the words for "round" and "walnut" sound similar.  "All that glitters is not gold" is similar.
4. It's possible some proverbs will not be obviously interpretable just based on the words.  For an English example, think of "Speak of the Devil."  It's not even the complete phrase.  We can expect cultural background to shorten proverbs over time to their essence, which may not be clear if you don't know the back story.


What We Want

Before lunch we went quickly around the room and people said what they most wanted from Paul.  Many people said one thing: words.  And not just new words, but help us understand existing words better (we don't have example of usage for plenty of them, still).  But a few other things did come up, both in this session and in later discussions.  Many people wanted more beginning material, as well as more audio material suited to beginners.

Later in the day, he asked us if we wanted more but smaller blog posts or big, juicy blog posts.  Everyone wanted more short ones, which was news to him.  I suspect most of us would rather get one new nugget every few days.  These would probably be easier for him to write, and it gives the rest of us more manageable chunks to learn.


A few Words

Some vocabulary matters that came up over the weekend —

sa'sem means parents, never one parent
Eo Eywa oe 'ia "I lose myself before Eywa," a chant in the film  (Fixed)
nìhay "next" (adverb, as in, "next we will talk about verbs")
nìnäk "by/through drinking" — any liquid, not just booze
tìlen (n) "event, happening" whether planned or accidental

There are a few others, but we're waiting on confirmation of some details.


I should mention, we currently have the weekend divided into nine sections.  So, six more posts to go.  They'll have more grammatical detail than this post has had.



msg=327517 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 01:14:17 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

Taras

Irayo.. But I think it should be

  Eo Eywa oe 'ia

kefyak?



msg=327518 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 01:15:01 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13007.msg327517#msg327517 date=1286586857]
Irayo.. But I think it should be

  Eo Eywa oe 'ia

kefyak?
[/quote]

Mllte.



msg=327521 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 01:18:07 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

wm.annis

Oy.  Fixed.  I hope this isn't a pattern now, messing up one thing a post.



msg=327652 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 04:39:57 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=13007.msg327521#msg327521 date=1286587087]
Oy.  Fixed.  I hope this isn't a pattern now, messing up one thing a post.

« Last Edit: Today at 06:19:41 pm by wm.annis » 

[/quote]

HRRH ::)

Interesting find with sa'sem....




msg=327677 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 05:24:42 | u=5528

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

Ekirä

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=13007.msg327652#msg327652 date=1286599197]
Interesting find with sa'sem....
[/quote]

Agreed, I find that a little peculiar....but good to know. Sort of like an invisible plural, but I guess it makes sense when you think of it as a Na'vi word, not an English word translated into Na'vi.



msg=327685 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 06:15:51 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Well, if you think about it as a shortened form of sa’nok sempulsì > sa’sem then it makes sense… Why would it ever be a singular word if it always contains both parties? ;)

Thanks again, ma wm. ;)

nìsung: I wouldn’t mind if my proverb got out now … I don’t thing that the meaning was that undecided about, kefyak?



msg=327707 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 10:03:11 | u=5139

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

Hrrap

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=13007.msg327685#msg327685 date=1286604951]
[font=Georgia]Well, if you think about it as a shortened form of sa’nok sempulsì > sa’sem then it makes sense… Why would it ever be a singular word if it always contains both parties? ;)

[/quote]

ohh irayo ma Plumps, I didn't see that first. Now that word will stick in my eltu forever  :D



msg=327876 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-09 17:04:00 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

tigermind

[quote author=Ekirä link=topic=13007.msg327677#msg327677 date=1286601882]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=13007.msg327652#msg327652 date=1286599197]
Interesting find with sa'sem....
[/quote]

Agreed, I find that a little peculiar....but good to know. Sort of like an invisible plural, but I guess it makes sense when you think of it as a Na'vi word, not an English word translated into Na'vi.
[/quote]

When i talked to Karyu Pawl about this, i compared it to the Tibetan Yab-Yum, which as i understand it literally means "mother-father."  So instead of thinking of the word sa'sem as meaning "parents," it might be better to think of it as meaning "mother-and-father".



msg=328354 | topic=13007 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 01:13:35 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #3: Proverbs, what we asked for, and some vocabulary

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=13007.msg327876#msg327876 date=1286643840]
[quote author=Ekirä link=topic=13007.msg327677#msg327677 date=1286601882]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=13007.msg327652#msg327652 date=1286599197]
Interesting find with sa'sem....
[/quote]

Agreed, I find that a little peculiar....but good to know. Sort of like an invisible plural, but I guess it makes sense when you think of it as a Na'vi word, not an English word translated into Na'vi.
[/quote]

When i talked to Karyu Pawl about this, i compared it to the Tibetan Yab-Yum, which as i understand it literally means "mother-father."  So instead of thinking of the word sa'sem as meaning "parents," it might be better to think of it as meaning "mother-and-father".
[/quote]

Ahh, that makes sense :)




msg=328339 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 00:59:31 | u=21

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

wm.annis

Today we have three more updates from the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/navi-language-workshop-the-poll-of-outstanding-questions/msg313139/#msg313139]Outstanding Questions[/url] document.


Sìltsan vs. Lefpom (#10)

The meaning of sìltsan is "meeting its purpose."  Aristotle would say it's for something that is "good of its kind."  It also means good in the sense of "morally good."  Lefpom is more "pleasant" or "pleasurable."


Rules of 'Ke' (#11)

There were several questions about ke, not all of which were covered.  However:

With si-construction verbs, ke goes before si, po pamrel ke si (with a shift in accent to ke from pamrel).  Note: this is like the prohibitive rä'ä, as in txopu rä'ä si don't be afraid.

However, when ke is attached to another word (fteke, zenke) it stays put, fteke pamrel sivi.

This wasn't part of the outstanding questions, but came up on Sunday.  Someone wanted to say, "not everyone understood" and said ke frapo tslolam.  Frommer corrected this to ke frapo ke tslolam.  I asked if this could be used with other pronouns, but really this has to do with the prenoun fra- "all, every."  You can negate just the fra-, but just as with negative pronouns and adverbs (kawtu, kawkrr, etc.), you also have to negate the verb.

 Ke fratawtute ke tsun kivame Not every human can See.


Nang (#17)

I hope someone will chime in with details on this.  I have the vague sense I missed something.

Nang is used to comment on something that is already extreme.  Words based on txan are of course about extremity.  Kì'eyawn's notes have "pleasurable surprise" here, which is a subtlety that escaped my note-taking.  I also don't think we came up with any other words which marked an extremity nang could comment on.



msg=328359 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 01:17:15 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

Taras

Thanks, ma William :D

I have one question about ke. As we know, before nouns (and probably before pronouns too?) we must use kea instead of just ke, right? But why here is ke fratawtute? Maybe it should be kea fratawtute? Or this means [ke fra-] tawtute like in english "not all", i.e. ke is related to prefix fra- which is not noun and therefore we must use ke?



msg=328366 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 01:22:32 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13028.msg328359#msg328359 date=1286673435] Or this means [ke fra-] tawtute like in english "not all", i.e. ke is related to prefix fra- which is not noun and therefore we must use ke?[/quote]

Exactly.



msg=328370 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 01:25:57 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

Taras

Ok, thanks. And what about ke(a) fìtawtute or ke(a) tsatawtute?



msg=328371 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 01:27:55 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13028.msg328370#msg328370 date=1286673957]Ok, thanks. And what about ke(a) fìtawtute or ke(a) tsatawtute?[/quote]

We have to wait on that.  He made faces at me when I asked for other ways to use ke that were like the ke frapo... one.



msg=328729 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 03:57:20 | u=1317

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

Nywotkrr Tsamahela

It's nice to have some clearing up on sìltsan and lefpom even if it came out as many of us probably expected.

Btw, what kind of face are you talking about? A "I'ma kill you" face >:(, a "wtf?" face ???, a "wiiiiii!" face :D or what? If it's too much prying you don't have to answer.



msg=328898 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 05:42:06 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

Prrton

[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=13028.msg328729#msg328729 date=1286683040]
It's nice to have some clearing up on sìltsan and lefpom even if it came out as many of us probably expected.

Btw, what kind of face are you talking about? A "I'ma kill you" face >:(, a "wtf?" face ???, a "wiiiiii!" face :D or what? If it's too much prying you don't have to answer.
[/quote]

We all had so many questions and "what ifs" that I think it was likely more along the lines of a "here we go again" face:

  ::)

  Kefyak?


PS: for ke frapo ke _______. It's easier for me to think of it as "not EACH X" __________. OR "A subset of X cannot/doesn't __________.






msg=329266 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 17:02:11 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

tigermind

Now here's an interesting question that comes up with ke fra-:

*Ke tsole'a oel ke frapoti

Is this kosher?  Also, is it different from Ke tsole'a oel frapoti?



msg=329552 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 22:08:54 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

Prrton

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=13028.msg329266#msg329266 date=1286730131]
Now here's an interesting question that comes up with ke fra-:

*Ke tsole'a oel ke frapoti

Is this kosher?  Also, is it different from Ke tsole'a oel frapoti?
[/quote]

I can't make sense out of *Ke tsole'a oel ke frapoti.

  "I have not seen not-each one" ??

The 2nd one makes perfect sense to me. "I have not seen each/every-one." (My eyes did not land on a subset (possibly only a subset of 1) of them.)




msg=329559 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 22:21:29 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

Taras

I think it can be

  Ke tsole'a oel kawtut.
  I have seen no one.



msg=329991 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 06:46:16 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

esoanem

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13028.msg329552#msg329552 date=1286748534]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=13028.msg329266#msg329266 date=1286730131]
Now here's an interesting question that comes up with ke fra-:

*Ke tsole'a oel ke frapoti

Is this kosher?  Also, is it different from Ke tsole'a oel frapoti?
[/quote]

I can't make sense out of *Ke tsole'a oel ke frapoti.

  "I have not seen not-each one" ??

The 2nd one makes perfect sense to me. "I have not seen each/every-one." (My eyes did not land on a subset (possibly only a subset of 1) of them.)


[/quote]

The first would seem to me to be a confusing way of saying "lu tuteo a ke tsole'a oe".



msg=330083 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 13:02:35 | u=132

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

Taronyu

I took away that nang as the mirative particle was the decision...



msg=330090 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 13:49:25 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

tigermind

[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=13028.msg329991#msg329991 date=1286779576]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13028.msg329552#msg329552 date=1286748534]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=13028.msg329266#msg329266 date=1286730131]
Now here's an interesting question that comes up with ke fra-:

*Ke tsole'a oel ke frapoti

Is this kosher?  Also, is it different from Ke tsole'a oel frapoti?
[/quote]

I can't make sense out of *Ke tsole'a oel ke frapoti.

  "I have not seen not-each one" ??

The 2nd one makes perfect sense to me. "I have not seen each/every-one." (My eyes did not land on a subset (possibly only a subset of 1) of them.)


[/quote]

The first would seem to me to be a confusing way of saying "lu tuteo a ke tsole'a oe".
[/quote]

Srane.  I was thinking out loud (in text?) whether this ke fra- ="not everyone" thing was meaningful predicatively.  My sense is that it's not.



msg=330138 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 15:30:19 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

esoanem

I think that it's meaningful ma kì'eywan, just only in the sense that "sells-fish-man-sells-fish-there-shop" is meaningful, it's just that there is probably a nicer way of saying it (like fishmonger's).



msg=330329 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 19:49:48 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=13028.msg329266#msg329266 date=1286730131]
Now here's an interesting question that comes up with ke fra-:

*Ke tsole'a oel ke frapoti

Is this kosher?  Also, is it different from Ke tsole'a oel frapoti?
[/quote]

Both of these immediately made sense to me. The first one to me seems to communicate more clearly what I think Kì'eyawn is trying to say, e.g. 'I see people, but not all of them'. The second statement is easier to 'decode', but doesn't seem to convey the meaning as clearly. The second statement also lacks the double negative, which is something I still don't really understand.

Maybe my thinking and approach to Na`vi is a bit different for others who find the second sentence a better choice. I wonder then, if this isn't an insight as to why I am not yet grasping some important principle (that, for instance, has been hindering me in writing good sentences) about this language.

The sìltsan vs lefpom distinction is very useful. irayo!

Finally, what is 'mirative'?



msg=330778 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 16:10:49 | u=430

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

TehMightyPirate

Here's my notes on "Nang":

[quote author=Ftiafpi's Notes]What exactly does Nang do:

Generally, yes. Nang is a "txan intensifier". Although there could be an extreme lexical item without txan that takes nang.

Also an exclamation of surprise.

Mirativity.
[/quote]

I took away that "nang" was used to "intensify txan". I.E. "Txantsan nang!" > "Txantsan!" and so on. Also, I remember Karyu Pawl mentioning that nang was also a Na'vi exclamation of surprise. If I recall correctly, from before we had "nang" as something similar to "wow!" where it was used as a positive exclamation only.

Mirativity is from "admire". It was a term that was new to Paul so I gather it's not in common usage. I think William brought it up so I'll leave it to him to explain but I think it meant that it was a word that carried with it a quality of admiration. Keep in mind this was something not brought up by Pawl so I'm not sure how applicable it is to "nang".

Edit: Wiki article: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirative]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirative[/url]



msg=330780 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 16:15:21 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

tigermind

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=13028.msg330778#msg330778 date=1286899849]
...Mirativity is from "admire". It was a term that was new to Paul so I gather it's not in common usage. I think William brought it up so I'll leave it to him to explain but I think it meant that it was a word that carried with it a quality of admiration.
[/quote]

I thought it was Taronyu...?



msg=330781 | topic=13028 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 16:17:08 | u=430

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #4: sìltsan; ke; nang

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=13028.msg330780#msg330780 date=1286900121]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=13028.msg330778#msg330778 date=1286899849]
...Mirativity is from "admire". It was a term that was new to Paul so I gather it's not in common usage. I think William brought it up so I'll leave it to him to explain but I think it meant that it was a word that carried with it a quality of admiration.
[/quote]

I thought it was Taronyu...?
[/quote]
I stand corrected then.



msg=329565 | topic=13049 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 22:32:13 | u=3552

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #5: txo/tsakrr, sä-, pe+

tigermind

Counterfactuals

In English we have if/then statements:

If you hunt, then we will have food.

In English the condition (the “if” part) is in the present tense, and the consequent (the “then” part) is in the future tense.

Na’vi uses txo and tsakrr:

Txo nga tivaron, tsakrr layu moeru syuve.

In Na’vi, the condition is in the subjunctive (<iv>) and the consequent in the future (<ay>) or near future (<ìy>); e.g., pxan livu txo nì’aw oe ngari / Tsakrr nga Na’viru yomtìyìng, from the Hunt Song.  But we also have the example, Txo new nga rivey, oehu! (“[ Come ] with me if you want to live”).  So, it’s possible the subjunctive is optional.

Just as English sometimes omits “then,” Na’vi often omits tsakrr:

If you hunt, we will have food.
Txo nga tivaron, layu moeru syuve.

You can also reverse the clause order:

We will have food if you hunt.
Layu moeru syuve txo nga tivaron.

But some if/then statements are counterfactuals—that is, they reference a state of affairs other than what actually is:

If you hunted, we would have food.
(i.e., but you didn’t hunt, so we don’t have food)

We do not yet know how to handle these in Na’vi.  But Karyu Pawl is thinking that there will be a new pair of words that function like txo/tsakrr, used exclusively for counterfactual statements.  We also are waiting to see how the verbs will behave in these situations.

sä-

The prefix sä- is not productive—that is, you can’t go applying it to any word you want.  But on the words that use it, sä- plays an “instrumental” role:  A säspxin is the instrument by which one becomes spxin; a säfpìl is how a person fpìl; etc.

pe+/-pe

We have question words like pesu/tupe, peseng/tsengpe; we now know that pe+/-pe can be used freely to mean “which/what”:

Pa’lipe lu ngaru?
Which direhorse is yours?

Peikranit tsìme’a oel?
Which banshee did i just see?

Note that pe+/-pe does not change the stress of a word (there had been some conflicting information on this earlier)

So, pe+ lì’u > pe’u/’upe

We also now know that pe+ and the plural prefix ay+ can combine and become pay+.

Payswizawit mìyunge ngal?
Which arrows are you going to take?



msg=329619 | topic=13049 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 23:28:11 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #5: txo/tsakrr, sä-, pe+

Taras

Irayo, ma tsmuke. Just one question:

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=13049.msg329565#msg329565 date=1286749933]
a säfpìl is how a person fpìl; etc.
[/quote]

what about fpìlfya? I think it also means "how a person fpìl"... :-\\



msg=329658 | topic=13049 | board=99 | time=2010-10-10 23:59:13 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #5: txo/tsakrr, sä-, pe+

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13049.msg329619#msg329619 date=1286753291]what about fpìlfya? I think it also means "how a person fpìl"... :-\\
[/quote]

"How" is ambiguous in English.  It can refer to means or instrument, or it can refer to manner.  The sä- prefix is for the first; fya words for the second.  :)



msg=329719 | topic=13049 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 01:10:44 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #5: txo/tsakrr, sä-, pe+

lapo lesxkxawng

Glad to see my query about pe+/-pe is confirmed *is recovering from the shock of how freely this affix can be used*.

Other than that, just about everything here looks quite expected to me.




msg=330367 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 21:25:39 | u=73

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Prrton

[font=Candara](1) A couple of clarifications on on stress.

Tuté

We’ve known for a long time that the difference between the word tute (person) and tute (woman) is the stress on the first syllable vs. the second. Normally Na’vi does not use any accent marks or other diacritics than ì and ä to distinguish these sounds fundamentally from i and a. But K. Pawl has officially recognized the spelling tuté for “woman”.

Alo

Until the Language Workshop we’ve had the word alo (time, turn, instance, one of a number of repeated or recurring actions) stressed on the 2nd syllable as alo. K. Pawl has now corrected this to alo. This is more consistent with how it behaves in the words ’awlo, melo, pxelo, hayalo, etc.

(2) Word Order with Slu

Because of Na’vi’s flexible word order, it is possible to create sentences like Taronyu slu tsamsiyu. It can be unclear which noun became which if enough context is lacking or the situation is complicated. In a case like Po slu tsamsiyu., the speaker and listener(s) already know who po is. If they did not, there would be no pronoun in play. There is no ambiguity in this scenario. But if you have any lack of clarity about the meaning, you can frame the outcome of slu with ne.

 Taronyu slu ne tsamsiyu.
 The hunter becomes a warrior.

    or

 Ne taronyu slu tsamsiyu.
 The warrior becomes a hunter.

Ne is the regular directional adposition. We’re already familiar with it. Now its role has be metaphorically extended for this grammatical construct (specifically with slu). It can be used before or after the predicate, which is the ‘outcome’ of the the becoming. Taronyune slu tsamsiyu. is also a valid way to say “The warrior becomes a hunter.”

(3) To be “about to” to do something... intention in the past.

Much has been asked and said about -ìmìy- already. It occurs once in the film dialog when Neytiri is justifying to Eytukan why she brought Jake to the Hometree. She intended to kill him when she first saw him in the forest, but then held back when there was a sign from Eywa (the atokirina’ touching her arrowhead.) It was revealed during the Workshop that this combination of -ìm- + -ìy- was an error. One way or the other, this is not ‘proper’ Na’vi and it should never be used by those of us who are trying to learn correct grammar.

However, there is a valid way to say this in Na’vi. The verb kan (aim) can be used modally in all tenses to express intention of the subject to do something. Neytiri’s line might better have come out:

 Oe pot k‹arm›an tsp‹iv›ang...
 I was intending to kill him...

The syntax of kan as a modal is like new, that is, either kan + V‹iv› or kan futa V‹iv›.

 Oel keran futa frapo pivähem txon’ongsre.
 I intend for everyone to arrive before nightfall.

 Po kayan ngivop mipa pxesìrolit txo por tsun srung sivi peyä meylan.
 He will be of a mind to create 3 new songs if his two friends can help him out.

There is also a well-known future intentional mood infix (-s-) in Navi that combines with -ìy- and -ay- to form -ìsy- and -asy-. It is only relevant in the future and it expresses the speaker’s intent about his or her own upcoming actions. When a speaker uses these infixes his or her mind is made up unambiguously.

The matter of how to express scenarios involving “about to” in the past when there is no overt intention on the part of the subject (e.g.: I was about to fall off of a cliff...) is still under consideration by K. Pawl.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

  [font=Candara]Edit: Corrected missing -l on oel in example above:

      Oel keran futa frapo pivähem txon’ongsre.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -





msg=330370 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 21:32:17 | u=1975

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Ean Tirea

How is it we can use futa with kan? How can we say oe pot kan tspivang? That destroys my current knowledge of agentive/patientive...



msg=330373 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 21:36:33 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Taras

Irayo, ma Prrton :)

Ma Tirea Aean, I think that would be oel kan futa ... I think it's wrong: Oe keran futa frapo pivähem txon'ongsre and it would be Oel keran futa frapo pivähem txon'ongsre :) Please correct me if I'm mistaken ;)



msg=330399 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 23:13:39 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Prrton


This I inherited from the aggregated notes:

  The syntax of kan as a modal is like new, that is, either kan + V‹iv› or kan futa V‹iv›.

That does indicate that Tsm. Kemaweyan's suggestion of «oel» should be correct.

My original understanding (months and months ago) of NEW was:

  Oe new ngal yivom teyluti.
  I want you to eat teylu.

My current understanding is that we must say:

  Oel new FUTA ngal yivom teyluti.
  I want THAT you eat teylu.

If everyone else's understanding is the same, then Tsm. Kemaweyan's suggestion should fix my mistake, kefyak?




msg=330403 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 23:19:35 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330399#msg330399 date=1286838819]If everyone else's understanding is the same, then Tsm. Kemaweyan's suggestion should fix my mistake, kefyak?
[/quote]

Mllte pohu oe kop.



msg=330410 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 23:32:53 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Prrton

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=13064.msg330370#msg330370 date=1286832737]
How is it we can use futa with kan? How can we say oe pot kan tspivang? That destroys my current knowledge of agentive/patientive...
[/quote]

Ma Tirea,

Does this still seem problematic to you? «Oe» does not take an agentive «-l» because it is the subject of the MAIN verb «kan», which here -- as is the case with «new», is intransitive. «Pot» takes the patientive «-t» because it is the object of the theoretical outcome of the transitive verb «tspang». If this is outdated or deprecated, I'm out of the loop.
That's totally possible...




msg=330413 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 23:40:33 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330410#msg330410 date=1286839973]If this is outdated or deprecated, I'm out of the loop.[/quote]

No, that's right.  The subject of a modal takes the intransitive subject, but if the verb controlled by the modal is transitive, then it (the controlled verb) can still take a normal direct object — without triggering the agentive ending on the subject of the modal.  For example, this line from the [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/06/first-post/]First Blog post[/url]:

 Fayupxaremì oe payängkxo teri horen lì’fyayä leNa’vi fpi sute a tsun srekrr tsat sivar.
 In these messages I wil chat about Na'vi grammar for people who were able to use it before.

Edit: clearer, perhaps:

ulte frapo—ftxey sngä’iyu ftxey tsulfätu—tsìyevun fìtsenge rivun ’uot lesar
and that everyone — whether beginner or master — will be able to find something useful here.



msg=330420 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 23:46:20 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Taras

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330410#msg330410 date=1286839973]
Does this still seem problematic to you? «Oe» does not take an agentive «-l» because it is the subject of the MAIN verb «kan», which here -- as is the case with «new», is intransitive. «Pot» takes the patientive «-t» because it is the object of the theoretical outcome of the transitive verb «tspang». If this is outdated or deprecated, I'm out of the loop.
That's totally possible...
[/quote]

Yeah, I totally agree with this. But when we use futa as object of verb new (or kan), we also must use -l with subject (oel).



msg=330428 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-11 23:55:56 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13064.msg330420#msg330420 date=1286840780]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330410#msg330410 date=1286839973]
Does this still seem problematic to you? «Oe» does not take an agentive «-l» because it is the subject of the MAIN verb «kan», which here -- as is the case with «new», is intransitive. «Pot» takes the patientive «-t» because it is the object of the theoretical outcome of the transitive verb «tspang». If this is outdated or deprecated, I'm out of the loop.
That's totally possible...
[/quote]

Yeah, I totally agree with this. But when we use futa as object of verb new (or kan), we also must use -l with subject (oel).
[/quote]

I believe you are 100% correct. I very commonly (as a bad personal habit, influenced by the fact that -が (-ga) in Japanese is used both for transitive and intransitive verbs) drop «-l» when it is absolutely required in proper Na'vi sentences. I should have double-checked my example before pressing "post". Thank you for catching it and offering the correction for my error.




msg=330489 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 02:20:35 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

So, could the last several posts be summarized as follows?

The subject of a modal takes the intransitive subject, but if the verb controlled by the modal is transitive, then it (the controlled verb) can still take a normal direct object — without triggering the agentive ending on the subject of the modal. The exception to this rule is if futa is used between the modal and controlled verb.

And if this is correct, why is it correct? What is special about futa in this regard? Or to ask this question another way, what is not special about nouns other than futa, that one might stick between a modal and its controlled verb?



msg=330498 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 02:39:31 | u=1975

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Ean Tirea

precisely:

my knowledge was this:

oe tsun tivaron yerikit
oe new tsive'a pot.
oel new futa poti tsive'a (same as #2)

oe kan poti tsive'a

I was perhaps blown by the clause mixing you did:

[oe kan] + [(oel) poti tspivang] = oe kan poti tspivang (same structure as zene)
[oe pot kan tspivang] = ??? clause mixing?

srry thats what got me.

i see what you did ther. you tried to keep with the original "oel pot tsp<fail>ang" and tried to apply the new kan to that and say "oe pot kan tspivang" but that to makes no sense without agentive, but IF it HAD agentive it STILL owuldnt be consistent with the vi natureof kan.



msg=330553 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 05:27:22 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Prrton


«New» is a somewhat 'funny' verb in that it has transitive and intransitive properties in Na'vi depending on its usage.

I believe that when it behaves modally directly with a slave verb in -iv- that it is subject to the rule that it must be treated as intransitive.

  Oe new pot tspivang.

    or

  Oe pot new tspivang.

  I want to kill him.

I am under the impression that these are both correct. The first is MORE common, however.

If new is used with a typical nominal object, it becomes wholly transitive.

  Oel new tsat. / Tsat new oel. / New oel tsat. / Tsat oel new. / New tsat oel.

  I want that.

'That' is the object of my desire. My desire 'acts' on it directly.

In the futa construct, futa behaves like a regular direct object (100% parallel to tsat). So:

  Oel new futa...

The reason that the verb goes to the subjunctive in the subordinate clause attached to the desire by futa is that the 'wanter' is desirous of something (a condition or outcome) that is not yet a reality. There are probably still some open questions about the subjunctive in certain contexts that make the seem a bit blurry too.

As I mentioned earlier, I took on posting this using aggregated notes. I did not personally hear and there on the spot internalize that K. Pawl said that kan as a modal would mimic the behavior of new precisely, but it does make sense to me. Both verbs, new and kan used modally for "intend", have a relationship to the desires/motivations/intentions of the speaker. And, kan, in its original meaning of "aim" easily takes a direct object (like new).

  Oel kan swizawit oeyä tsopìr yerikä.

  I aim my arrow at the yerik's lung.

In English WANT and AIM can also be both transitive and intransitive.

If anyone knows more about that line in the aggregated notes than I, PLEASE chime in now.




msg=330560 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 05:49:58 | u=6241

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Dreamlight

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330367#msg330367 date=1286832339]
[font=Candara](1) A couple of clarifications on on stress.

Tuté

We’ve known for a long time that the difference between the word tute (person) and tute (woman) is the stress on the first syllable vs. the second. Normally Na’vi does not use any accent marks or other diacritics than ì and ä to distinguish these sounds fundamentally from i and a. But K. Pawl has officially recognized the spelling tuté for “woman”.

[/quote]

Just as a note, if you need to type this word, the "é" can be done with alt-130.



msg=330561 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 05:51:53 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330367#msg330367 date=1286832339]
(1) A couple of clarifications on on stress.

Tuté

We’ve known for a long time that the difference between the word tute (person) and tute (woman) is the stress on the first syllable vs. the second. Normally Na’vi does not use any accent marks or other diacritics than ì and ä to distinguish these sounds fundamentally from i and a. But K. Pawl has officially recognized the spelling tuté for “woman”.

[/quote]

Wou, another [desc=é]character[/desc] we have to struggle with unless its usage is optional :P

Looking back at some of the possible homophones, I caught wind a word like "hawnuyu" can be spoken with [desc=Hawnúyu (hawn<uy>u) and hawnuyú (hawnu-yu)]two different stress patterns[/desc].  Here I could see an ú being practical, although could the acute accent apply to all of the situations where writing out a word would otherwise become a homograph?




msg=330562 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 05:53:26 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Dreamlight link=topic=13064.msg330560#msg330560 date=1286862598]
Just as a note, if you need to type this word, the "é" can be done with alt-130.
[/quote]

Also, ALT+0233 = é
...and ALT+0201 = É




msg=330564 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 05:57:29 | u=6241

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Dreamlight

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=13064.msg330562#msg330562 date=1286862806]
[quote author=Dreamlight link=topic=13064.msg330560#msg330560 date=1286862598]
Just as a note, if you need to type this word, the "é" can be done with alt-130.
[/quote]

Also, ALT+0233 = é
...and ALT+0201 = É


[/quote]
And Alt-144 = É as well.



msg=330565 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 06:00:10 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Tiger

I don't know if it has ever been confirmed that you can mix up the order in the modal short form...  Though we do have the dialog "Pot tsun oe tspivang nìftue" from Tsu'tey.  Yet one more thing that needs to be clarified (Unless we have another example of that order, which is not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

On some of the other comments in the thread...
Hawnu-yu and hawn-uy-u would both be stressed on the first syllable, so it is up to context to clear it up.

Futa is not "special" really.  It is a contraction of fì'ut a, so it has the built in patientative case, hence why it is proper to use oel with futa.



msg=330572 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 06:08:43 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Prrton

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=13064.msg330561#msg330561 date=1286862713]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330367#msg330367 date=1286832339]
(1) A couple of clarifications on on stress.

Tuté

We’ve known for a long time that the difference between the word tute (person) and tute (woman) is the stress on the first syllable vs. the second. Normally Na’vi does not use any accent marks or other diacritics than ì and ä to distinguish these sounds fundamentally from i and a. But K. Pawl has officially recognized the spelling tuté for “woman”.

[/quote]

Wou, another [desc=é]character[/desc] we have to struggle with unless its usage is optional :P

Looking back at some of the possible homophones, I caught wind a word like "hawnuyu" can be spoken with [desc=Hawnúyu (hawn<uy>u) and hawnuyú (hawnu-yu)]two different stress patterns[/desc].  Here I could see an ú being practical, although could the acute accent apply to all of the situations where writing out a word would otherwise become a homograph?

[/quote]

I am under the impression that the correct spelling of the word for "woman" is simply tuté. To my knowledge, nothing was discussed about it being optional.

Already mentioned by O.F. before I finished typing... The verb «hawnu» is stressed on the first syllable. I don't understand where hawnuyu or hawnuyu would come from. Adding -yu should not change the stress. I do believe that Wes Studi (as Eytukan) mispronounced taronyu as taronyu in the film, but, I'm firmly under the impression that it's properly interpreted as an error.




msg=330573 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 06:11:46 | u=6241

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Dreamlight

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330572#msg330572 date=1286863723]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=13064.msg330561#msg330561 date=1286862713]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330367#msg330367 date=1286832339]
(1) A couple of clarifications on on stress.

Tuté

We’ve known for a long time that the difference between the word tute (person) and tute (woman) is the stress on the first syllable vs. the second. Normally Na’vi does not use any accent marks or other diacritics than ì and ä to distinguish these sounds fundamentally from i and a. But K. Pawl has officially recognized the spelling tuté for “woman”.

[/quote]

Wou, another [desc=é]character[/desc] we have to struggle with unless its usage is optional :P

Looking back at some of the possible homophones, I caught wind a word like "hawnuyu" can be spoken with [desc=Hawnúyu (hawn<uy>u) and hawnuyú (hawnu-yu)]two different stress patterns[/desc].  Here I could see an ú being practical, although could the acute accent apply to all of the situations where writing out a word would otherwise become a homograph?

[/quote]

I am under the impression that the correct spelling of the word for "woman" is simply tuté. To my knowledge, nothing was discussed about it being optional.

Already mentioned by O.F. before I finished typing... The verb «hawnu» is stressed on the first syllable. I don't understand where hawnuyu or hawnuyu would come from. Adding -yu should not change the stress. I do believe that Wes Studi (as Eytukan) mispronounced taronyu as taronyu in the film, but, I'm firmly under the impression that it's properly interpreted as an error.


[/quote]

Probably so.  Neytiri says "taronyu".



msg=330574 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 06:15:17 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Dreamlight link=topic=13064.msg330573#msg330573 date=1286863906]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330572#msg330572 date=1286863723]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=13064.msg330561#msg330561 date=1286862713]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330367#msg330367 date=1286832339]
(1) A couple of clarifications on on stress.

Tuté

We’ve known for a long time that the difference between the word tute (person) and tute (woman) is the stress on the first syllable vs. the second. Normally Na’vi does not use any accent marks or other diacritics than ì and ä to distinguish these sounds fundamentally from i and a. But K. Pawl has officially recognized the spelling tuté for “woman”.

[/quote]

Wou, another [desc=é]character[/desc] we have to struggle with unless its usage is optional :P

Looking back at some of the possible homophones, I caught wind a word like "hawnuyu" can be spoken with [desc=Hawnúyu (hawn<uy>u) and hawnuyú (hawnu-yu)]two different stress patterns[/desc].  Here I could see an ú being practical, although could the acute accent apply to all of the situations where writing out a word would otherwise become a homograph?

[/quote]

I am under the impression that the correct spelling of the word for "woman" is simply tuté. To my knowledge, nothing was discussed about it being optional.

Already mentioned by O.F. before I finished typing... The verb «hawnu» is stressed on the first syllable. I don't understand where hawnuyu or hawnuyu would come from. Adding -yu should not change the stress. I do believe that Wes Studi (as Eytukan) mispronounced taronyu as taronyu in the film, but, I'm firmly under the impression that it's properly interpreted as an error.


[/quote]

Probably so.  Neytiri says "taronyu".
[/quote]

Hmm..  maybe then it's [desc=hawnu-yu]hawnuyu[/desc] and [desc=hawn<uy>u]hawnúyu[/desc].




msg=330575 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 06:22:29 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Prrton

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=13064.msg330574#msg330574 date=1286864117]
[quote author=Dreamlight link=topic=13064.msg330573#msg330573 date=1286863906]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330572#msg330572 date=1286863723]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=13064.msg330561#msg330561 date=1286862713]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330367#msg330367 date=1286832339]
(1) A couple of clarifications on on stress.

Tuté

We’ve known for a long time that the difference between the word tute (person) and tute (woman) is the stress on the first syllable vs. the second. Normally Na’vi does not use any accent marks or other diacritics than ì and ä to distinguish these sounds fundamentally from i and a. But K. Pawl has officially recognized the spelling tuté for “woman”.

[/quote]

Wou, another [desc=é]character[/desc] we have to struggle with unless its usage is optional :P

Looking back at some of the possible homophones, I caught wind a word like "hawnuyu" can be spoken with [desc=Hawnúyu (hawn<uy>u) and hawnuyú (hawnu-yu)]two different stress patterns[/desc].  Here I could see an ú being practical, although could the acute accent apply to all of the situations where writing out a word would otherwise become a homograph?

[/quote]

I am under the impression that the correct spelling of the word for "woman" is simply tuté. To my knowledge, nothing was discussed about it being optional.

Already mentioned by O.F. before I finished typing... The verb «hawnu» is stressed on the first syllable. I don't understand where hawnuyu or hawnuyu would come from. Adding -yu should not change the stress. I do believe that Wes Studi (as Eytukan) mispronounced taronyu as taronyu in the film, but, I'm firmly under the impression that it's properly interpreted as an error.


[/quote]

Probably so.  Neytiri says "taronyu".
[/quote]

Hmm..  maybe then it's [desc=hawnu-yu]hawnuyu[/desc] and [desc=hawn<uy>u]hawnúyu[/desc].


[/quote]

If the accents were used, it should only ever be háẃnuyu for either word. There is no «uy» diphthong in Na'vi and the stress must remain on the stressed vowel or diphthong as it occurs in the uninflected verb anyway. Only omum violates this rule at this time.




msg=330579 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 06:32:28 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Prrton

I suppose that it could also be tolerated for people to use acute accents (´) in the spellings of their own names too, but I've never asked K. Pawl about it.

 The English name Thomas = Támasì

 The French name Thomas = Tomá

If people were prone to mispronounce my name as Prrton, then I guess it might be spelled Pŕŕton, but I won't be doing that.

As of now, the only word in the standard lexicon that is spelled with an (´) is tuté.




msg=330581 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 06:46:36 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330575#msg330575 date=1286864549]
If the accents were used, it should only ever be háẃnuyu for either word. There is no «uy» diphthong in Na'vi and the stress must remain on the stressed vowel or diphthong as it occurs in the uninflected verb anyway. Only omum violates this rule at this time.
[/quote]

Sran, it's likely because "omum" is currently the only bisyllabic word that begins with a vowel.

Also, who would think of accenting diphthongs completely and accenting pseudovowels for stress?  Those don't have any stress-contrastive forms as we know it.

But otherwise, I can see even where the secondary stress is makes the two forms of "hawnuyu" homophones, even when spoken.




msg=331041 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 21:49:35 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330553#msg330553 date=1286861242]

  Oel kan swizawit oeyä tsopìr yerikä.

  I aim my arrow at the yerik's lung.

[/quote]

I am looking at this example sentence and scratching my head. In some ways it looks like two sentences. It also looks like an a (or something else) is needed between oeyä and tsopir. Am I somehow interpreting this incorrectly? (At first, it even looked like 'I aim arrow at my yerik's lungs'.)

I also seem to vaguely recall that there was some use of é early on (like last February or before) that quietly disappeared.



msg=331059 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 22:05:29 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

Prrton

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=13064.msg331041#msg331041 date=1286920175]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13064.msg330553#msg330553 date=1286861242]

  Oel kan swizawit oeyä tsopìr yerikä.

  I aim my arrow at the yerik's lung.

[/quote]

I am looking at this example sentence and scratching my head. In some ways it looks like two sentences. It also looks like an a (or something else) is needed between oeyä and tsopir. Am I somehow interpreting this incorrectly? (At first, it even looked like 'I aim arrow at my yerik's lungs'.)

I also seem to vaguely recall that there was some use of é early on (like last February or before) that quietly disappeared.
[/quote]

  Oel kan oeyä swizawit tsopìr yerikä.

This is also a perfect valid way to construct this, but I don't believe that it's required for the sentence to be clear.

  Oeyä swizawit kan oel tsopìr yerikä.

This separates the nouns and their genitive modifiers even more. It's still the same meaning. This 2nd one emphasizes "arrow" a bit more. Perhaps there was another tool available to the hunter for the yerik, but he or she chose the arrow.

Keep in mind that in real conversation these would have all of the LIFE and CONTEXT that one would need to clear up some of the ambiguities that we inherit with printed text. It comes with the territory.

The first one (original example) has a nice balance specifically because of the noun-genitive, noun-genitive thing going on, in my way of thinking.

I'm sure that others, like me, have been writing tuté here and there. It's simply now been officially recognized as "OK".

    ;D





msg=331228 | topic=13064 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 06:58:09 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #6: tuté, alo; slu; kan

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Irayo! tsaw srung oeru lu, ma Prrton.

This does illustrate how the way we think about communication and language affects how we interpret things, as I had mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. For instance, I had trouble with Oel kan swizawit oeyä tsopìr yerikä, even if it was 'legal' and clear to you. OTOH, I had no trouble whatsoever understanding Oel kan oeyä swizawit tsopìr yerikä. The third example is good, too, but the second is still the best. I suspect some of this will rub off as i gain more experience understanding things not in logical (to me) word order.



msg=331027 | topic=13086 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 21:33:14 | u=21

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations

wm.annis

Multiple Attributive Adjectives (#23)

During this session we spoke much of a small, pretty bird.  The question is how to attach multiple attributives to a single noun.  So far, our only evidence of this is to sandwich the noun between the two adjectives:

  lora yayo ahì'i

This is still acceptable.  If you want to either (1) put the adjectives on the same side of the noun or (2) use more than two adjectives, you break the adjectives out into an attributive clause:

  yayo a lu lor sì hì'i

In case you all don't read the comments on Frommer's blog regularly, this related to a question I asked about a turn of phrase [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/09/getting-to-know-you-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-321]just before the workshop[/url].  If you want to use an adverb on an attributive adjective, it is "particularly idiomatic" to yank that out into an attributive clause, too:

  yayo a lor lu nìtxan a very beautiful bird

However, you can use the adverb next to the adjective so long as it doesn't intrude between the noun and the adjective, yayo alor nìtxan.


Complex Gerund Phrases

This session was all about the joys of eating grubs.  :)  The question is how to say "eating teylu is fun."  In English, we can use a gerund construction, and even though a gerund is a sort of noun it can still take a direct object.  After a great deal of discussion, it was decided to forbid arguments (subjects, direct objects) to Na'vi gerunds.  If you need a complex gerund phrase like English "eating teylu, you need to use a fwa/a fì'u clauses:

  Fwa yom teylut 'o' lu. Eating teylu is fun.

But the bare gerund is still fine, too:

  Tìyusom 'o' lu Eating is fun.


Names of Nations and Languages

Paul prefers to use names that approximate the native name for languages and countries.  So, Sweriye for Sweden, rather than Switìn or the like.



msg=331073 | topic=13086 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 22:21:48 | u=985

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations

Nyx

Yay, I had a feeling the adjectives would need another clause ^^

Thanks for the update :) I have some catching up to do



msg=331076 | topic=13086 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 22:26:16 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations

Taras

Thanks ;) So, it's impossible to say

  yayo ahì'i sì alor

right?



msg=331079 | topic=13086 | board=99 | time=2010-10-12 22:28:10 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13086.msg331076#msg331076 date=1286922376]
Thanks ;) So, it's impossible to say

  yayo ahì'i sì alor

right?
[/quote]

Right.



msg=331234 | topic=13086 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 07:31:55 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=13086.msg331027#msg331027 date=1286919194]
After a great deal of discussion, it was decided to forbid arguments (subjects, direct objects) to Na'vi gerunds.  If you need a complex gerund phrase like English "eating teylu, you need to use a fwa/a fì'u clauses:

  Fwa yom teylut 'o' lu. Eating teylu is fun.

But the bare gerund is still fine, too:

  Tìyusom 'o' lu Eating is fun.

[/quote]

What exactly does the fwa do in the first example? Would things be different in the verb were intransitive?



msg=331244 | topic=13086 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 08:01:23 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations

Tiger

The verb which fwa is working with is intransitive - the verb is lu
fì'u 'o' lu
This thing is fun

What thing?  This eating teylu thing.
Fì'u a yom teylut 'o' lu
This eating teylu thing is fun



msg=331856 | topic=13086 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 05:51:10 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13086.msg331244#msg331244 date=1286956883]
The verb which fwa is working with is intransitive - the verb is lu
fì'u 'o' lu
This thing is fun[/quote]

Darnit. i am staying up too late!  :-[

What thing?  This eating teylu thing.
Fì'u a yom teylut 'o' lu
This eating teylu thing is fun
[/quote]

So fwa here s simply 'thing' (nominative), and not some sort of placeholder. This does make sense.



msg=331876 | topic=13086 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 07:20:24 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations

Tiger

It is both.  Fwa is literally fì'u a - this thing which.  But the "thing" there IS a placeholder for something that is being described.



msg=331242 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 07:57:51 | u=54

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Tiger

On Sunday afternoon, under the lovely canopy of the forest, there was some discussion related to participles, causatives and reflexives, and how they relate to each other and some other odd situations.

Participles
First, we (In the community as a general whole) have been saying for a long time that participles are pre-first.  This all falls to a misreading of Frommer's language log post ages ago, and it is in fact not the case.  Participle infixes (<us> and <awn>) are first position, and can not combine with any other first position infixes.  That means there are no past, future, perfective or imperfective participles of any sort.  (Though I'd imagine you could use attributed phrases for similar effect - syuve a fkol yalmom vs. yawnoma syuve eaten food, for example.)  There are also no second position infixes allowed with participles.  Pre-first position infixes can, of course, combine with participles.

smäpusona tute
Self-knowing person

Participles of auxiliary (si) verbs are constructed no differently than the verb is normally used - the participle infix goes into the verb part, and both parts are considered together.  In writing, the words are hyphenated to show the connection.  Notice the location of the attributive -a- affix in the following examples.

srung-susia tute
tute asrung-susi
Helping person

Reflexive causative
There are, then, only two pre-first position infixes, the causative and the reflexive.  Can they combine?  Yes, they can, in one form, <äp><eyk> is the reflexive causative, meaning cause oneself to do something.

po täpeykìyeverkeiup nìnäk
I am jazzed that he is apparently about to drink himself to death
(That is officially the most mutilated a verb can become, and was a group effort.  Color coding due to the extreme verbal mutilation.)

For a slightly easier example...

po kllkxäpeykem
He stands himself up

Antipassive causatives
We know that when a normally transitive verb is used in an antipassive manner (po taron vs. pol yerikit taron) the subject does not get any case markings, as if it were an intransitive verb.  What happens, then, if you are using the causative form?  A transitive verb and intransitive verb take the causative slightly differently, after all.  But the verb is still transitive, so it is treated like a transitive verb.  The person causing them to do something is still the agentive case, and the person being caused to do it is still the dative case.  No patientive case is used.

oel poru teykaron
I made him hunt



msg=331267 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 10:42:37 | u=2788

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Lance R. Casey

Regarding si participles, did we get explicit confirmation that ‹awn› is also allowed, even though the construction from which you start is considered intransitive? That is, is the example "a clarified question" provided in the Outstanding Question #11b rendered as *tìpawm alaw-sawni?



msg=331381 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 16:07:21 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=13097.msg331267#msg331267 date=1286966557]
Regarding si participles, did we get explicit confirmation that ‹awn› is also allowed, even though the construction from which you start is considered intransitive? That is, is the example "a clarified question" provided in the Outstanding Question #11b rendered as *tìpawm alaw-sawni?
[/quote]

In juxtaposition to tute asrung-susi I wrote down tute asrung-sawni (a helped/assisted person), and I don't believe it was a problem. Did anyone hear him baulk at that?




msg=331400 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 16:24:00 | u=430

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13097.msg331381#msg331381 date=1286986041]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=13097.msg331267#msg331267 date=1286966557]
Regarding si participles, did we get explicit confirmation that ‹awn› is also allowed, even though the construction from which you start is considered intransitive? That is, is the example "a clarified question" provided in the Outstanding Question #11b rendered as *tìpawm alaw-sawni?
[/quote]

In juxtaposition to tute asrung-susi I wrote down tute asrung-sawni (a helped/assisted person), and I don't believe it was a problem. Did anyone hear him baulk at that?
[/quote]
I heard no baulking and don't see any reason why one couldn't do that.



msg=331401 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 16:24:08 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13097.msg331381#msg331381 date=1286986041]In juxtaposition to tute asrung-susi I wrote down tute asrung-sawni (a helped/assisted person), and I don't believe it was a problem. Did anyone hear him baulk at that?[/quote]

Wrote down where?  Because I really hope that's a problem.  I would only expect a causative si-construction (X seyki) to be able to take passive participle form.



msg=331409 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 16:31:44 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Taras

Mllte hu Tsm. Wm.Annis :)

I think it's possible to create passive participles only from transitive verbs, but as we know the verbs created with si are always instransitive :)



msg=331424 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 16:40:43 | u=0

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg331242#msg331242 date=1286956671]
po täpeykìyeverkeiup nìnäk
I am jazzed that he is apparently about to drink himself to death
[/quote]

Dude, isn't that Hellish. Am I to assume that "oe" is already implied?



msg=331429 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 16:44:01 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

wm.annis

[quote author=Ìngkoruptusì link=topic=13097.msg331424#msg331424 date=1286988043]Dude, isn't that Hellish. Am I to assume that "oe" is already implied?[/quote]

By the ‹ei› attitude infix.  The attitude infixes always refer to the attitude of the speaker.



msg=331436 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 16:48:45 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Tiger

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13097.msg331409#msg331409 date=1286987504]
Mllte hu Tsm. Wm.Annis :)

I think it's possible to create passive participles only from transitive verbs, but as we know the verbs created with si are always instransitive :)
[/quote]They are grammatically intransitive, but not necessarily semantically intransitive...  However as <awn> is a grammatical construct rather than a semantic one, that would seem to indicate it should follow the grammatical rules.  But tute asrung-sawni certainly makes more sense than something like *tute arawney which is wrong both grammatically AND semantically.

However I don't remember exactly what was said about passive si participles so hìtxoa, I can not actively participate in the recounting of the discussion.

I DID however remember another couple related comments though, that there are no si- gerunds.  Where you would use the gerund form normally, just drop the si and use the base word.  So the "gerund" of srung si is just srung.

Second, like with kem, and apologies that you have to rely on my faulty memory for this one as I asked this during a break so as far as I know I'm the only witness (Hopefully I'm not misremembering), you can use modifiers on si verbs where it makes sense.  So for example...

Wina uvan si
Play a quick game



msg=331440 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 16:51:26 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=13097.msg331401#msg331401 date=1286987048]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13097.msg331381#msg331381 date=1286986041]In juxtaposition to tute asrung-susi I wrote down tute asrung-sawni (a helped/assisted person), and I don't believe it was a problem. Did anyone hear him baulk at that?[/quote]

Wrote down where?  Because I really hope that's a problem.  I would only expect a causative si-construction (X seyki) to be able to take passive participle form.
[/quote]

On the board.



msg=331443 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 16:54:08 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg331436#msg331436 date=1286988525]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13097.msg331409#msg331409 date=1286987504]
Mllte hu Tsm. Wm.Annis :)

I think it's possible to create passive participles only from transitive verbs, but as we know the verbs created with si are always instransitive :)
[/quote]They are grammatically intransitive, but not necessarily semantically intransitive...  However as <awn> is a grammatical construct rather than a semantic one, that would seem to indicate it should follow the grammatical rules.  But tute asrung-sawni certainly makes more sense than something like *tute arawney which is wrong both grammatically AND semantically.

However I don't remember exactly what was said about passive si participles so hìtxoa, I can not actively participate in the recounting of the discussion.

I DID however remember another couple related comments though, that there are no si- gerunds.  Where you would use the gerund form normally, just drop the si and use the base word.  So the "gerund" of srung si is just srung.

Second, like with kem, and apologies that you have to rely on my faulty memory for this one as I asked this during a break so as far as I know I'm the only witness (Hopefully I'm not misremembering), you can use modifiers on si verbs where it makes sense.  So for example...

Wina uvan si
Play a quick game
[/quote]

also... tsakem rä'ä sivi.

That surprised me the first time I saw/heard it, but it makes sense.




msg=331458 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 17:07:16 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg331436#msg331436 date=1286988525]I DID however remember another couple related comments though, that there are no si- gerunds.  Where you would use the gerund form normally, just drop the si and use the base word.  So the "gerund" of srung si is just srung.

Second, like with kem, and apologies that you have to rely on my faulty memory for this one as I asked this during a break so as far as I know I'm the only witness (Hopefully I'm not misremembering), you can use modifiers on si verbs where it makes sense.[/quote]

[desc=To the wiki!]Rutxe, ne Wiki awngeyä![/desc]

[quote]They are grammatically intransitive, but not necessarily semantically intransitive...  However as <awn> is a grammatical construct rather than a semantic one, that would seem to indicate it should follow the grammatical rules.  But tute asrung-sawni certainly makes more sense than something like *tute arawney which is wrong both grammatically AND semantically.[/quote]

A year ago I would have agreed with you on this, but I'm increasingly coming to see transitivity is more a grammatical than a semantic matter.  The grammar would have to present some structural requirement for intransitives to take passive marking, which we don't really have in Na'vi as far as I can see.

Poor Paul.  He keeps answering our questions, but each answer raises more questions...



msg=331459 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 17:12:03 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=13097.msg331458#msg331458 date=1286989636]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg331436#msg331436 date=1286988525]I DID however remember another couple related comments though, that there are no si- gerunds.  Where you would use the gerund form normally, just drop the si and use the base word.  So the "gerund" of srung si is just srung.

Second, like with kem, and apologies that you have to rely on my faulty memory for this one as I asked this during a break so as far as I know I'm the only witness (Hopefully I'm not misremembering), you can use modifiers on si verbs where it makes sense.[/quote]

[desc=To the wiki!]Rutxe, ne Wiki awngeyä![/desc]

[quote]They are grammatically intransitive, but not necessarily semantically intransitive...  However as <awn> is a grammatical construct rather than a semantic one, that would seem to indicate it should follow the grammatical rules.  But tute asrung-sawni certainly makes more sense than something like *tute arawney which is wrong both grammatically AND semantically.[/quote]

A year ago I would have agreed with you on this, but I'm increasingly coming to see transitivity is more a grammatical than a semantic matter.  The grammar would have to present some structural requirement for intransitives to take passive marking, which we don't really have in Na'vi as far as I can see.

Poor Paul.  He keeps answering our questions, but each answer raises more questions...

[/quote]

I overtly asked again this AM. Will let you know [desc= = “if” ;-) ]as soon as[/desc] I get anything.




msg=331468 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 17:20:41 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Tiger

I would like to point out here that sawni would not be the first time grammatical transitivity was given to si verbs.  A reflexive only makes sense on transitive verbs, yet we have säpi such as win säpi.



msg=331472 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 17:25:03 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg331468#msg331468 date=1286990441]
I would like to point out here that sawni would not be the first time grammatical transitivity was given to si verbs.  A reflexive only makes sense on transitive verbs, yet we have säpi such as win säpi.
[/quote]

Precisely. I came here to write that and it was already slolu *'u apamrel-sawni *??




msg=331479 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 17:34:48 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

esoanem

Is it possible that in some ways na'vi treats verbs with dative objects as transitive? That would, if I understand it correctly, explain the use of <äp> and <awn> with si verbs (the only other effect of transitives I can think of is the use of the ergative which might be better explained as being a result of the use of an accusative which would be  in line with antipassive constructions). Of course, the logical conclusion of this is that <äp> and <awn> can be used for all verbs with dative objects for example "[desc=I seem brave to myself]oe tstew läpam[/desc]" and "[desc=owning person]tute alawnu[/desc]". That said, such a use of <äp> could be contradictory or at least would sit uneasily with sno (unless sno is restricted from the dative case like it presumably is with the patientive, do we have any examples of sno being used in the dative case?).



msg=331519 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 18:13:31 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Tiger

At the moment the only valid use of sno is the genitive case sneyä.



msg=331545 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 18:39:20 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg331519#msg331519 date=1286993611]
At the moment the only valid use of sno is the genitive case sneyä.
[/quote]

Seconded.



msg=331546 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 18:40:01 | u=0

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=13097.msg331429#msg331429 date=1286988241]
[quote author=Ìngkoruptusì link=topic=13097.msg331424#msg331424 date=1286988043]Dude, isn't that Hellish. Am I to assume that "oe" is already implied?[/quote]

By the ‹ei› attitude infix.  The attitude infixes always refer to the attitude of the speaker.
[/quote]

I think I figured that, but became confounded by the immensity of what I was seeing.



msg=331570 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 18:56:17 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg331519#msg331519 date=1286993611]
At the moment the only valid use of sno is the genitive case sneyä.
[/quote]

So my idea re:transitivity in na'vi is potentially valid? If so, [desc=does it seem a suitable model to you?]lam ayngaru sìltsan srak[/desc]?



msg=331630 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 20:24:46 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=13097.msg331479#msg331479 date=1286991288]
Is it possible that in some ways na'vi treats verbs with dative objects as transitive? That would, if I understand it correctly, explain the use of <äp> and <awn> with si verbs (the only other effect of transitives I can think of is the use of the ergative which might be better explained as being a result of the use of an accusative which would be  in line with antipassive constructions). Of course, the logical conclusion of this is that <äp> and <awn> can be used for all verbs with dative objects for example "[desc=I seem brave to myself]oe tstew läpam[/desc]" and "[desc=owning person]tute alawnu[/desc]". That said, such a use of <äp> could be contradictory or at least would sit uneasily with sno (unless sno is restricted from the dative case like it presumably is with the patientive, do we have any examples of sno being used in the dative case?).
[/quote]

I actually won't be surprised if K. Pawl decides to allow snor for oe snor lam tstew (?? nìtstew[desc=I'm not sure if «lam» supports raw adjectives or not.]*[/desc] ??).

I think that -äp- (and -awn- too for that matter) only has a shot at going into verbs that are semantically transitive. Lam would not fall into that category (in my mind). I can't make heads or tails out of how *tute alawnu means owning person, so I'll just have to say "no comment" to that one.

  ;)




msg=331654 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 21:04:48 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

esoanem

lawnu was probably a bad example. What I meant was that, if we assume that <awn> can also describe dative objects then, because of the "lu X-DAT" construction, surely "lawnu" would be best translated as "owning".



msg=331661 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 21:25:18 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

wm.annis

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg331468#msg331468 date=1286990441]
I would like to point out here that sawni would not be the first time grammatical transitivity was given to si verbs.  A reflexive only makes sense on transitive verbs, yet we have säpi such as win säpi.
[/quote]

Ah, but that's a subtly different issue.  This takes is into crazy realms of formal semantics, but the basic gist of this is that a "reflexive" says that the agent and the patient of an act are the same entity.  The effect of this on a transitive verb is to reduce valency, but there's no special reason why it could not also be tacked onto an already intransitive verb, so long as agent and patient can be semantically assigned to the same entity in a way that makes sense.

It is not completely unheard of for some sort of participle form binding to an indirect object or dative form.  But it seems unmotivated by the rest of Na'vi grammar, which is why it makes me woogy.



msg=331665 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 21:32:03 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=13097.msg331654#msg331654 date=1287003888]
lawnu was probably a bad example. What I meant was that, if we assume that <awn> can also describe dative objects then, because of the "lu X-DAT" construction, surely "lawnu" would be best translated as "owning".
[/quote]

I'm really not so sure.  ;)

It doesn't work that way in any of the languages that I know (even when they use something similar to Na'vi's X-DAT lu to express basic possession (English "have").

My guess is that personal "ownership" (in the sense of "you may now make YOUR bow from the wood of the Hometree") would be a different root in Na'vi; or at a minimum would involved some other (adverbial?) qualifier. Just my guess, of course.

I see your logic, but I personally just can't get on board. Ngaytxoa.




msg=331668 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 21:39:02 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

esoanem

As I say, it was a bad example, perhaps "[desc=to whom one chats]pawnängkxo[/desc]" would have been better.



msg=331672 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-13 21:46:32 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=13097.msg331668#msg331668 date=1287005942]
As I say, it was a bad example, perhaps "[desc=to whom one chats]pawnängkxo[/desc]" would have been better.
[/quote]

I personally can grok[desc=tsun tslivam]*[/desc] that and would be fine using it. But, I have no idea that it will be officially blessed.




msg=331800 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 01:57:34 | u=1225

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

neotrekkerz

[quote]Antipassive causatives
We know that when a normally transitive verb is used in an antipassive manner (po taron vs. pol yerikit taron) the subject does not get any case markings, as if it were an intransitive verb.  What happens, then, if you are using the causative form?  A transitive verb and intransitive verb take the causative slightly differently, after all.  But the verb is still transitive, so it is treated like a transitive verb.  The person causing them to do something is still the agentive case, and the person being caused to do it is still the dative case.  No patientive case is used.

oel poru teykaron
I made him hunt[/quote]

Do we know how this sentence would change if I also said what he hunts, e.g. "I made him hunt a palulukan?"



msg=331805 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 02:04:24 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Taras

We have canon example from Pawl:

  Eytukanìl Neytirir yerikit teykolaron.
  Eytukan had a hexapede hunted by Neytiri.



msg=331854 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 05:46:18 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13097.msg331805#msg331805 date=1287021864]
We have canon example from Pawl:

  Eytukanìl Neytirir yerikit teykolaron.
  Eytukan had a hexapede hunted by Neytiri.
[/quote]

I know this is canon, but I can't seem to extract this meaning from this sentence. I don't see the 'had a' part here. Or, is this supposed to be 'Eytukan had caused Neytiri to hunt a hexapede'?



msg=331866 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 06:35:46 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=13097.msg331854#msg331854 date=1287035178]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13097.msg331805#msg331805 date=1287021864]
We have canon example from Pawl:

  Eytukanìl Neytirir yerikit teykolaron.
  Eytukan had a hexapede hunted by Neytiri.
[/quote]

I know this is canon, but I can't seem to extract this meaning from this sentence. I don't see the 'had a' part here. Or, is this supposed to be 'Eytukan had caused Neytiri to hunt a hexapede'?
[/quote]

We might more commonly say this (translate this) as:

Lì'fya
  (1) Eytukan
had
Neytiri
hunt
a hexepede.
  (2) Eytukan
made
Neytiri
hunt
a hexepede.
  (3) Eytukan
caused
Neytiri
to hunt
a hexepede.


If Eytukan typically has authority over Neytiri then we'd most commonly use the language of (1). The most colloquial way to say it is (2). The final phrasing (3) is correct, but we'd almost never say that in everyday English. -Eyk- (in teykolaron) is the "causative infix", so (3) is the closest to a "semantic literal translation" from Na'vi directly into English.




msg=331867 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 06:48:27 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

esoanem

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=13097.msg331672#msg331672 date=1287006392]
[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=13097.msg331668#msg331668 date=1287005942]
As I say, it was a bad example, perhaps "[desc=to whom one chats]pawnängkxo[/desc]" would have been better.
[/quote]

I personally can grok[desc=tsun tslivam]*[/desc] that and would be fine using it. But, I have no idea that it will be officially blessed.


[/quote]

More awkward questions now. If <awn> can be used to describe dative objects, would that make "mawnunge" ambiguous (in some cases, it could usually be inferred from context) as it could mean "that was brought" or "to whom was brought" (deliberately using relative clauses to make it less ambiguous here)?

Also, could <äpeyk> then also be used for something along the lines of "[desc=I made him hunt me]oe por täpeykaron[/desc]"?



msg=332046 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 17:05:07 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

tigermind

[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=13097.msg331867#msg331867 date=1287038907]
Also, could <äpeyk> then also be used for something along the lines of "[desc=I made him hunt me]oe por täpeykaron[/desc]"?
[/quote]

I don't think so.  Based on our example of drinking oneself to death, i think the reflexive maps onto the person who is "eyk"ed—so your sentence would read, "i made him hunt himself."  Tì'efumì oeyä.



msg=332073 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 17:55:18 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Tiger

äpeyk is "cause oneself to".  I'm not 100% sure how it plays with transitive verbs, but "täpeykaron" would be cause oneself to hunt.



msg=332081 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 17:58:59 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Prrton

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=13097.msg332046#msg332046 date=1287075907]
[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=13097.msg331867#msg331867 date=1287038907]
Also, could <äpeyk> then also be used for something along the lines of "[desc=I made him hunt me]oe por täpeykaron[/desc]"?
[/quote]

I don't think so.  Based on our example of drinking oneself to death, i think the reflexive maps onto the person who is "eyk"ed—so your sentence would read, "i made him hunt himself."  Tì'efumì oeyä.
[/quote]

All of a sudden we're in an episode of "Predators Invade Pandora"...

I think this would have to be «Oel por oet teykaron.»






msg=332085 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 18:03:58 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Taras

I think it would be snot ;)

  Oel por snot teykaron



msg=332087 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 18:04:58 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Tiger

And just how long have you been waiting for a chance to offer "snot" as a suggestion?



msg=332088 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 18:05:49 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

esoanem

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13097.msg332085#msg332085 date=1287079438]
I think it would be snot ;)

  Oel por snot teykaron
[/quote]

This is what I'd have thought assuming that <äpeyk> wouldn't work.



msg=332092 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 18:10:05 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Taras

I think <äpeyk> would mean "I caused myself to ...", kefyak?



msg=332094 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 18:13:27 | u=3552

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

tigermind

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg332087#msg332087 date=1287079498]
And just how long have you been waiting for a chance to offer "snot" as a suggestion?
[/quote]

HRH



msg=332322 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 01:15:56 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=13097.msg332092#msg332092 date=1287079805]
I think <äpeyk> would mean "I caused myself to ...", kefyak?
[/quote]

Srane.  I questioned it in the Intermediate section, and now we have confirmation :)

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=13097.msg332094#msg332094 date=1287080007]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg332087#msg332087 date=1287079498]
And just how long have you been waiting for a chance to offer "snot" as a suggestion?
[/quote]

HRH
[/quote]

HRRH nìteng XD





msg=332734 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 19:39:20 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13097.msg331242#msg331242 date=1286956671]
oel poru teykaron
I made him hunt[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Should be »make«, shouldn’t it?



msg=332793 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 21:06:02 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Tiger

It could made, will make or making depending on context.  But you are right, lacking context, make probably works better.



msg=332794 | topic=13097 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 21:08:46 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°10: participles, causatives and reflexives, oh my!

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]True, in context situations, I’m with you… with single sentence examples, it m‹ats›ight be confusing for people ;)



msg=331897 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 09:12:33 | u=132

Notation Change for Cases

Taronyu

Wm Annis' document has brought into the public forum a question that has been sort of hanging around for a while, but no one seemed to talk about it. Perhaps it got brought up here and there, but nothing really changed as a whole. Well, in the past few weeks Wm Annis' grammar, my dictionary, and now Na'vi in a Nutshell have changed, and I think it'd be a good idea if we let people know why instead of just having it happen.

I'm talking of course about the terms Nominative, Accusative, Ergative, Absolutive and the corresponding terms Subjective, Patientive, Agentive. We now are no longer using the former terms, but are relying exclusively on the second. It would be great if, as a site, we all moved over in a notation.

Here's why. Ergativity isn't really what's going on in Na'vi. We've been saying it is, for ages, but that's not really the case. It works for the Basque system, though. If they were applicable, Na'vi would look like this:

Oe-l hahaw. I sleep.
Oe-t tspang yerik-ìl. I kill the yerik.

As you can see, the subject in intransitive and the object in transitive share the same ending, while the subject in transitive changes to something else. The absolutive marker is here the -l. The -t is technically the ergative. These terms haven't really been used properly, which may have been fairly confusing for new learners, although we have managed to use the Latinate terms nominative and accusative to express what is going on fairly well.

But this is not how Na'vi is. Agentive, Patientive, and Subjective are the standard terms that ought to be applied to Na'vi. Each is different. So:

Oe-(0) hahaw. I sleep.
Oe-l tspang yerik-it. I kill the yerik.

You'll see there's zero marking on the noun in the intranstive. So, it comes out as just Oe tspang. I don't think any of us have any problem with this, but we might have problem with calling this the Subjective case, which is technically what it is. The -l then marks agentive - as it is the agent which performs the action (not technically correct semantic notation, but that's where agentive derives from, which is not a syntactic case (If you don't understand this, don't worry.)) The object takes the patientive case, -it. And this is how Na'vi works, as we know, and now we should have the correct terms to apply to it. So, I think, from here on out: Ergative, Nominative, Accusative, and Absolutive should be stricken from our vocabulary concerning Na'vi. (Unless we're talking to people who have learned, say, Spanish.) We now have three terms: Agentive, Patientive, Subjective. Right.

I hope this clarifies things. I posted it here because this is probably the best place for it.

Edit: made the 'fake' example correct in terminology. Even I don't fully have ergativity internalised.



msg=331962 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 14:38:37 | u=430

Re: Notation Change for Cases

TehMightyPirate

I'm Ftiafpi and I approve this message.

*ahem* Being serious now, this is good. To me even the terminology seems to make more sense. It may just be me but agentive seems to be more obvious in it's use than ergative (which has no clear latin root that I can see).

Oh, and what are the glossed abbreviations for reference?



msg=331991 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 15:14:53 | u=132

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Taronyu

I was thinking age., pat., and sbj. Sound good?



msg=332003 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 15:38:34 | u=7138

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Bearpecs

is there a clear distinction between SBJ Subjective and Subjunctive?

AGE reminds me of how old I am.  AGN?

(feel free to ignore the newbie  ;D)



msg=332016 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 16:01:25 | u=132

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Taronyu

AGN sounds better. I'll use that.

Sidenote: I can't respond to your PM, and I'm not sure why. Email richard at learnnavi . org, if you could.



msg=332018 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 16:01:48 | u=0

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Swoka Swizaw

Nìngay, oeru suneiu mipa faylì'u [desc=descriptive]leoeyktìng[/desc] nang. Irayo, nìtxan.



msg=332021 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 16:12:58 | u=1318

Re: Notation Change for Cases

HTML_Earth

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=13126.msg331897#msg331897 date=1287047553]
Well, in the past few weeks Wm Annis' grammar, my dictionary, and now Na'vi in a Nutshell have changed,
[/quote]

Your dictionary still has the abbreviations ERG and ACC in it. (In the Noun Case and Plurality Inflections chapter)



msg=332025 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 16:26:20 | u=2788

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Lance R. Casey

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_glossing_abbreviations]WP[/url] gives AGT, PAT and SBJ/SUB, respectively, with SJV/SBJV for subjunctive.



msg=332026 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 16:31:08 | u=132

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Taronyu

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=13126.msg332025#msg332025 date=1287073580]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_glossing_abbreviations]WP[/url] gives AGT, PAT and SBJ/SUB, respectively, with SJV/SBJV for subjunctive.
[/quote]

I'll use these.

I fixed those erg. and acc. this morning, but it looks like the database is having some issues with me updating at the moment and it didn't stick as I thought it did. I'll talk to my DBA and see how/when this can be fixed.



msg=332027 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 16:32:22 | u=54

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Tiger

There's also A (Agent), P (Patient) and S (Single argument) which are from the [url=http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/resources/glossing-rules.php]Leipzig Glossing Rules[/url].



msg=332045 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 17:02:59 | u=73

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13126.msg332027#msg332027 date=1287073942]
There's also A (Agent), P (Patient) and S (Single argument) which are from the [url=http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/resources/glossing-rules.php]Leipzig Glossing Rules[/url].
[/quote]

I think that when these terms are first introduced to new learners (and for the sake of the "old timers" correcting their vocabularies and "catching up") it would be very good to show the 'correct' pronunciations of the terms at least in IPA.

I'm more in favor of the three letter abbreviations and we need TOP and others standardized as well.

I'm glad that we're not calling -l 'ergative' anymore. So confusing.




msg=332053 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 17:12:35 | u=21

Re: Notation Change for Cases

wm.annis

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=13126.msg331962#msg331962 date=1287067117]It may just be me but agentive seems to be more obvious in it's use than ergative (which has no clear latin root that I can see). [/quote]

Cuz it's Greek!



msg=333633 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-17 10:57:32 | u=0

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Tsamsiyu92

And -ru/-ur/-r remain being called dative, kefyak?



msg=333644 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-17 11:22:34 | u=132

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Taronyu

[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=13126.msg333633#msg333633 date=1287313052]
And -ru/-ur/-r remain being called dative, kefyak?
[/quote]

And -yä/ä remain the genitive, kop.



msg=333836 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-17 19:06:09 | u=54

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Tiger

Not to mention -ri and -ìri remain the topic.



msg=334194 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-18 11:19:19 | u=5790

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Muzer

What was absolutive? I never used that one.

And I do indeed find the new words confusing - subjective sounds to me like it should be a transitive verb (as it is the subject, as opposed to the object...), and patientive also seems to make little sense to me (the one who waits for something? hrh). I'll try to use the new terms, however - but I'm the sort of person who can't change their ways when they have learnt something.



msg=334209 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-18 12:18:57 | u=132

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Taronyu

Think of it like this:

Subject - The person who is the subject, but who isn't doing anything. (Intransitive)

Agentive - the Agent. The one who goes around doing the verb.

Patientive - The patient, lying on the table, on whom the operation is performed. The object.

Make sense?



msg=334267 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-18 15:28:04 | u=4754

Re: Notation Change for Cases

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I guess that means that tìmweypeyit is truly patientive.  :D



msg=334284 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-18 15:58:04 | u=1550

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Taras

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=13126.msg334267#msg334267 date=1287415684]
I guess that means that tìmweypeyit is truly patientive.  :D
[/quote]

I think, tìmweypeyti ;)



msg=334328 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-18 17:18:11 | u=54

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Tiger

For diphthongs, it can be -it or -ti, either is correct.  On its own, -it would probably be more likely.



msg=336241 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-22 05:36:01 | u=1120

Re: Notation Change for Cases

roger

I agree that "subjective case" is misleading, as it implies that it marks the subject: in other words, the nominative, which Na'vi does not have. The normal linguistic term for this is "intransitive case".

"Agentive case" and "patientive case" are normally used for split- or fluid-S systems, where intransitives may be either AGT or PAT depending on factors such as control or volition. That's not what Na'vi has. The normal linguistic terms for an A-only case is "ergative", and of a P-only case "accusative". Tripartite languages are ergative-accusative-intransitive. True, they're not called "ergative languages", because that is short for ergative-absolutive. But then, that's why we have the term "tripartite".

It's fine to have an in-house convention where we arbitrarily change linguistic terminology (we could call /ts/ a "diphthong" if we wanted), but at the price of being incompatible with the rest of linguistics.



msg=336285 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-22 11:04:23 | u=132

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Taronyu

I'm not sure it's as incompatible as all that. I'm not highly researched into ergative systems, however.

I'm also not sure that the normal linguistic terms are as set-in-stone as that.

So, you vote we change back, then?



msg=336289 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-22 11:17:01 | u=21

Re: Notation Change for Cases

wm.annis

[quote author=roger link=topic=13126.msg336241#msg336241 date=1287725761]It's fine to have an in-house convention where we arbitrarily change linguistic terminology (we could call /ts/ a "diphthong" if we wanted), but at the price of being incompatible with the rest of linguistics. [/quote]

There is nothing particularly unusual about the traditional descriptive terminology of a language being incompatible with mainstream linguistic vocabulary (see the "classifiers" of Athabascan linguistics, for example).  This happens all the time.  So long as it's clearly announced, I see no problem with it.



msg=336449 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-22 20:01:09 | u=4754

Re: Notation Change for Cases

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

If Na`vi is not purely ergative-accusative, or agentitive-patientive, maybe we need all-new terns??

Perhaps Na`vi words beyond tstxolì`u are needed for subject, agent and patient cases.



msg=337148 | topic=13126 | board=99 | time=2010-10-24 10:39:01 | u=5790

Re: Notation Change for Cases

Muzer

I should really look all this stuff up and come to my own conclusion.


But since there seems to be doubt for now, and I happen to dislike the new terms, I'll use Nominative/Ergative/Accusative until further notice. That way I don't have to run a mass replace on everything I have already that uses that terminology.



msg=332239 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 22:24:26 | u=21

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

wm.annis

This is the last of the updates from the workshop.  I hope to have a major update to the reference grammar ready in a day or two, with everything new in it.  It's possible we'll get a few updates from Frommer about a few of these posts, but the major work is done.


Nìtengfya and Tengfya
These words are not identical.  Tengfya is more about situational similarity:

  Sunu oeru teylu tengfya sunu por fkxen Just as I like teylu, he likes fkxen.

But nìtengfya concentrates on some action being performed in the same way:

  Po sì oe tìkangkem soli nìtengfya she and I did it in the same way.


Gender
First, Olo'eyktan is not a male leader.  Paul reiterated that the sex suffixes -e and -an are not productive.

On the grammar side of things, poe and poan cannot be pluralized.  Use (ay)fo.


Modals and Infixes (#27)
When using modals with controlled verbs, only the modals get tense and aspect marking.  The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.


"He made me want to make you eat teylu"
I was not present for this, but some mad genius asked Paul how to say, "he made me want to make you eat teylu" — using only infixes.  I would loved to have seen Paul's face.  It turns out, you cannot do this using only infixes.  Here is the chain of development:

  Pol oeru teyluti yeykolom  He made me eat teylu.
  Pol oeru neykew futa oel yivom teyluti  He made me want to eat teylu.
  Pol oeru neykew futa oel ngaru yeykivom teyluti He made me want to make you eat teylu.

At least now we know how to deal with causatives of new.



msg=332247 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 22:38:44 | u=0

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=13136.msg332239#msg332239 date=1287095066]
First, Olo'eyktan is not a male leader.  Paul reiterated that the sex suffixes -e and -an are not productive.
[/quote]

Well, that sort of (though, not entirely) botches the idea that I had that Frommer devised the male suffix, -(t)an, from "eyktan," like he was able to create two viable words from toruk. Lord knows that I was holding out for "olo'eykte."



msg=332290 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-14 23:47:37 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

Tiger

No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.



msg=332359 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 02:17:28 | u=0

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13136.msg332290#msg332290 date=1287100057]
No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.
[/quote]

Buzzkill...  ;D



msg=332368 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 02:35:34 | u=6582

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Ìngkoruptusì link=topic=13136.msg332359#msg332359 date=1287109048]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13136.msg332290#msg332290 date=1287100057]
No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.
[/quote]

Buzzkill...  ;D
[/quote]

Srane :P




msg=332416 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 05:10:38 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13136.msg332290#msg332290 date=1287100057]
No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]And hopefully no *’eyle :P


Thanks for keeping us up to date, ma William!



msg=332423 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 06:04:08 | u=6241

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

Dreamlight

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13136.msg332290#msg332290 date=1287100057]
No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.
[/quote]

I would imagine that if one wants/needs to specify gender one could say olo'eyktanan or olo'eyktane, as appropriate?



msg=332425 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 06:10:59 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

Tiger

Nope.

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=13136.msg332239#msg332239 date=1287095066]
Paul reiterated that the sex suffixes -e and -an are not productive.
[/quote]

If you REALLY wanted to specify gender, you could say "olo'eyktan alu tutan" for example, but Na'vi just really wouldn't do that normally.  Tuté, tutan, ke tsranten for.



msg=332427 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 06:40:26 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

esoanem

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=13136.msg332239#msg332239 date=1287095066]
Modals and Infixes (#27)
When using modals with controlled verbs, only the modals get tense and aspect marking.  The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.
[/quote]

What about affectuals? It seems to me that there would be a distinction between "tseiun oe tivaron" and "tsun oe tivareion" but now this post makes me question whether the second is allowed.



msg=332430 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 07:10:31 | u=54

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

Tiger

And what would that distinction to be?  How would you translate the second?

(And I believe what was said was that they are not allowed.)



msg=332479 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 11:18:53 | u=2873

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

Skyinou

I'm pretty sure he said only <iv> <eyk> and <äp> can be in the second verb.

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=13136.msg332239#msg332239 date=1287095066]
"He made me want to make you eat teylu"
I was not present for this, but some mad genius asked Paul how to say, "he made me want to make you eat teylu" — using only infixes.  I would loved to have seen Paul's face.
[/quote]

Thanks  ;D

He ran away... ;D



msg=332619 | topic=13136 | board=99 | time=2010-10-15 15:41:32 | u=195

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=13136.msg332430#msg332430 date=1287126631]
And what would that distinction to be?  How would you translate the second?

(And I believe what was said was that they are not allowed.)
[/quote]

Fairly minor, just that, the first would describe that you would imply that the ability was what pleased you whereas in the second it would be the action that would please you,, as I say, fairly minor.



msg=338697 | topic=13367 | board=99 | time=2010-10-26 21:20:09 | u=21

MOVED: For thought - contractions

wm.annis

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=13362.0[/iurl]



msg=340846 | topic=14016 | board=99 | time=2010-10-31 03:16:31 | u=54

MOVED: Suggested change to the first letter of the Na'vi alphabet

omängum fra'uti

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=14014.0[/iurl]



msg=350278 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 01:45:07 | u=73

Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Prrton


From the Na’vi Language Lesson material:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Zoë: Ma sute kempe si nga? Po spe'etu lu oeyä.

  Laz: Fayvrrtep fìtsenge lu kxanì. Oel poti tspìyang fte tìkenong lìyevu ayla(he)ru.

  Zoë: Ftang nga. Aungia lolu. Tsahìku(r) txele lu.

  Wes: Poltxe oe san zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva'u fìtseng fte (?[desc=He says ‘fto’, which is not a canonical item]*[/desc]) po fìkelkur ke zoplo sivi. Oeri ta peyä fahew akewong ontu teya längu.

  Zoë: Ma Sempul, pxaya atokirina’ ne fìketuwong zìma'u. Zene Sa’nok fìaungiati ralpiveng.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is nothing really new here, of course, except some context for the vocabulary. I just found it especially interesting how zoplo is used. To me it's pseudo-canon because K. Pawl clearly wrote the dialogue, but it didn't make it into the movie and perhaps ‘fto’ really was a word at some point... (but it isn't now). Right?




msg=350288 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 02:07:08 | u=21

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14334.msg350278#msg350278 date=1290044707]There is nothing really new here, of course, except some context for the vocabulary. [/quote]

Context is king!

We get to see za'u with ne, which is nice, and aungia with ral·peng.

What exactly does "BD-Live content" mean?  I need to cite these in the wiki dictionary.



msg=350301 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 02:37:51 | u=1550

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Taras

Wou, irayo nìtxan! ;)

But why fte po fìkelkur ke zoplo sivi? I think it should be fteke fìkelkur zoplo sivi or fte fìkelkur zoplo ke sivi, kefyak? Also I can't understand why there is patientive case in zene Sa'nok fìaungiati ralpiveng :-\\ I think, the verb ralpeng is intransitive ("ralit peng") and this phrase should be zene Sa'nok fìaungiari ralpiveng ???



msg=350309 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 03:02:49 | u=2

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

snowyfox

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14334.msg350288#msg350288 date=1290046028]
What exactly does "BD-Live content" mean?  I need to cite these in the wiki dictionary.
[/quote]

BD-Live content is content that you get access to when you buy a blu-ray disc, but it is only available online and is not part of the actual blu-ray disc.  Basically, its just extra content that is only available via the internet.



msg=350313 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 03:13:34 | u=21

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=14334.msg350301#msg350301 date=1290047871]I think, the verb ralpeng is intransitive ("ralit peng") [/quote]

Why?  There's no reason some verb compounds cannot be transitive.

[quote author=Seze link=topic=14334.msg350309#msg350309 date=1290049369]BD-Live content is content that you get access to when you buy a blu-ray disc, but it is only available online and is not part of the actual blu-ray disc.  Basically, its just extra content that is only available via the internet.[/quote]

Oy.  How on earth does one give a citation for that, I wonder.



msg=350327 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 04:05:36 | u=54

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Tiger

I'd say same way you cite a special feature on a disk. It's accessed through the menus just like any other stuff, there's just an additional menu item that appears when it has internet access and it lets you select from more videos online.



msg=350339 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 04:45:03 | u=73

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=14334.msg350301#msg350301 date=1290047871]
Wou, irayo nìtxan! ;)

But why fte po fìkelkur ke zoplo sivi? I think it should be fteke fìkelkur zoplo sivi or fte fìkelkur zoplo ke sivi, kefyak? Also I can't understand why there is patientive case in zene Sa'nok fìaungiati ralpiveng :-\\ I think, the verb ralpeng is intransitive ("ralit peng") and this phrase should be zene Sa'nok fìaungiari ralpiveng ???
[/quote]

I agree that some of it seems a bit under-baked. The context of the lessons is that they (Zoë, Laz, and Wes) are practicing (with Carla, not Paul) and it was a long time ago. That's another reason to consider it pseudo-canon. But, Zoë and Laz were in mo-cap gear, so it was after shooting had started. I think it was the first time that Wes was seeing his lines. Zoë and Laz were pretty good at it already.






msg=350343 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 04:50:51 | u=54

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Tiger

Was it just me, or did it sound like Frommer was coaching Laz (In the capturing avatar bit) to say "Fìketuwong ke nayome kevut"?



msg=350347 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 04:59:27 | u=73

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=14334.msg350343#msg350343 date=1290055851]
Was it just me, or did it sound like Frommer was coaching Laz (In the capturing avatar bit) to say "Fìketuwong ke nayome kevut"?
[/quote]

YES. It does. I think that kevu or kewu that shifted to towards kevu (Indic/Thai influence?) could be a deprecated form. That's one of the reasons I think that the same might be true of *fto (>>> fte).



msg=350394 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 07:42:49 | u=195

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

esoanem

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14334.msg350278#msg350278 date=1290044707]
  Zoë: Ma sute kempe si nga? Po spe'etu lu oeyä.
[/quote]

Isn't this the first time where we've seen a genitive separated from the thing being possessed like this? If so, would it be reasonable to assume it comes down to lu being special?



msg=350406 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 08:09:12 | u=54

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Tiger

Not the first time...

Fìtsenge lu awngeyä!

I'd take some of this VERY lightly though.  I was just watching this again and I noticed you can read the dialog sheets...  It is very clearly written...

Ma Tsu'tey, kempe si nga? Po spxetu lu oeyä!



msg=350756 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-18 20:18:48 | u=3876

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Aysyal

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=14334.msg350406#msg350406 date=1290067752]
I was just watching this again and I noticed you can read the dialog sheets...  It is very clearly written...
[/quote]
Correct. It's written aylaru for the 2nd line, so that's for sure.

Also, there's also a line spoken by K. Pawl during the credits of Capturing Avatar (BD #2):
oeri Uniltìrantokxìl tìreyti leykolateiem nìtxan subtitled with Avatar has greatly changed my life for the better.

btw, where exactly does that kind of stuff go on our wiki? Corpus?



msg=351195 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-19 18:06:00 | u=21

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

wm.annis

[quote author=eanayo link=topic=14334.msg350756#msg350756 date=1290111528]btw, where exactly does that kind of stuff go on our wiki? Corpus?
[/quote]

Actually, the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Na%27vi_from_Avatar_Movie]Na'vi from Avatar Movie[/url] page is probably the best place for these.



msg=351280 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-11-19 21:16:38 | u=54

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Tiger

Yeah I started putting up some of the deleted scene transcriptions as we got the previews...  For this, I was starting to add them as well but then I realized altered dialog is different than deleted scenes...  But it probably deserves to be included anyway.



msg=360522 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-12-03 03:54:01 | u=7413

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

tempfornow

I wish I could get the BD-Live to work on my software, but that's another story.

When Jake ends Tsu'tey's life in the extra SE/CE scene at the end, he recites what sounds like the following:

Oeru txoa livu, ma oeyä tsmukan, (??) sa'nok tirea.
Ngari hu eywa salew tirea,
tokx 'ì'awn ("your body stays behind")
slu Na'viyä hapxì  ("to become part of the people")

Were they planning on eating him as well?  :P



msg=360742 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-12-03 18:16:12 | u=430

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=tempfornow link=topic=14334.msg360522#msg360522 date=1291348441]
I wish I could get the BD-Live to work on my software, but that's another story.

When Jake ends Tsu'tey's life in the extra SE/CE scene at the end, he recites what sounds like the following:

Oeru txoa livu, ma oeyä tsmukan, (??) sa'nok tirea.
Ngari hu eywa salew tirea,
tokx 'ì'awn ("your body stays behind")
slu Na'viyä hapxì  ("to become part of the people")

Were they planning on eating him as well?  :P
[/quote]
Well they could also use that phrase to refer to the whole cycle of life. I.E. Dead body decays, plants use decay for fertilizer, people eat plants, rinse and repeat.



msg=360895 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 00:03:28 | u=6582

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=tempfornow link=topic=14334.msg360522#msg360522 date=1291348441]
I wish I could get the BD-Live to work on my software, but that's another story.

When Jake ends Tsu'tey's life in the extra SE/CE scene at the end, he recites what sounds like the following:

Oeru txoa livu, ma oeyä tsmukan, [color=#FF00FF]Kivä set sa'nok[color=#FF00FF]-tirea[color=#FF00FF][nobbc][ne][/nobbc].
Ngari hu eywa salew tirea,
tokx 'ì'awn ("your body stays behind")
slu [desc=This may be incorrect...]Na'viyä hapxì[/desc]  ("to become part of the people")

Were they planning on eating him as well?  :P
[/quote]

HRRH probably not.





msg=361052 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 04:27:19 | u=7413

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

tempfornow

I listened carefully again with headphones and, yes, the swell of music and fade effect on Jake's voice makes the final utterance(s) almost indecipherable.  tokx 'ì'awn slu is quite clear however.  Na'viyä hapxì follows from earlier dialog and perhaps my mind is filling that in.  I believe the Na' syllable is discernible, but better ears than mine might have a crack at it.



msg=361116 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 08:11:17 | u=5528

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Ekirä

[quote author=tempfornow link=topic=14334.msg361052#msg361052 date=1291436839]
I listened carefully again with headphones and, yes, the swell of music and fade effect on Jake's voice makes the final utterance(s) almost indecipherable.  tokx 'ì'awn slu is quite clear however.  Na'viyä hapxì follows from earlier dialog and perhaps my mind is filling that in.  I believe the Na' syllable is discernible, but better ears than mine might have a crack at it.
[/quote]

Okay, so I've listened to it quite a few times trying to discern what he says--definitely not Na'viyä hapxì.

I believe--not sure, as Jake's pronouncing is not what I would call admirable--that he says slu na'rìng(a). What it really sounds like is su na'inya but forest actually does fit really well with what Jake could be saying.....kefyak?

Anyway, that's my guess. ;D



msg=363094 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-12-07 11:19:00 | u=5790

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

Muzer

Well, listen to the first time he says Na'viyä hapxì... doesn't sound much like what it should do.



msg=363388 | topic=14334 | board=99 | time=2010-12-07 20:44:35 | u=430

Re: Pseudo-canon from BD-Live content

TehMightyPirate

Have you guys tried different languages other than English audio?



msg=352299 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 10:57:55 | u=351

Got any questions for Paul?

Morsolo

Hey everyone,

I figure here is the best section, but if not, mods, feel free to move this post.

I'm meeting with Paul tomorrow and... well, yeah... feel free to post any questions you would like me to ask him. :D

ta Tsyeymzi



msg=352300 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 11:00:52 | u=6518

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

puvomun

Tewti!! I jump immediately!
Na'vi has a word for writing (pamrel) but I have not found a word for reading yet. Is there one or will there be one?

(OME, you are really going to meet him? WOU!)



msg=352301 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 11:03:56 | u=351

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Morsolo

[quote author=Puvomun link=topic=14395.msg352300#msg352300 date=1290337252]
(OME, you are really going to meet him? WOU!)
[/quote]

Yep. I've been talking with him over email since the start of the year; and now that he came down to Australia to speak at a University, he wanted to sit down and have a chat over a coffee :)



msg=352303 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 11:08:56 | u=6518

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

puvomun

[quote author=Tsyeymzi link=topic=14395.msg352301#msg352301 date=1290337436]
Yep. I've been talking with him over email since the start of the year; and now that he came down to Australia to speak at a University, he wanted to sit down and have a chat over a coffee :)
[/quote]

Aaaahhhhhh... I am not jealous. I am definitely not jealous. (I will keep repeating this until I believe it.)
If you can, give him my best regards, from a Paul in the Netherlands :D



msg=352305 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 11:22:30 | u=430

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

TehMightyPirate

Txantsana fmawn! Oe sìlpey tsnì ngaru lu prrte' fwa ngeyä ultxa hu karyu Pawl. :)

I'd ask him about the line from the collectors edition of Avatar:

Peyä menarisì nìhawng lu hì'i

And ask him if that was intended or an actor flub of the line.



msg=352310 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 11:28:56 | u=351

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Morsolo

I'd also like to apologize. I'm sure some of you are thinking - ESPECIALLY those who end up reading this AFTER I meet up with him:

"He's been talking to him all year, I'm sure he's had this meeting planned for a while. Why tell us THE DAY before?"

Yeah... Well... Between BlackOps, Hot Pursuit, Gran Turismo (soon), finishing school (forever!) and a girlfriend... Na'vi hasn't exactly been my top priority.

So... Sorry guys :-[



msg=352311 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 11:32:12 | u=6518

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

puvomun

Hey, at least we did not hear this afterwards!

Good luck with being busy.



msg=352313 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 11:33:15 | u=1746

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Carborundum

I think it's past time we learned what tsaleioae means.



msg=352405 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 15:00:57 | u=3552

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

tigermind

Ooh, this one's been on my mind for a while.  i doubt he could answer this off the cuff, but i've been thinking about the verb 'ia, and what *'eykia and *tì'ia might mean, if they existed in the language.  I was thinking 'ia-derived words might relate to the Greek concept of κένωσις (kénōsis), but wasn't sure.  So, yeah; and if he just looks at you like  ??? ... s'okay.

P.S. Regarding kenosis, tell him Wikipedia has everything he needs to know  ;)



msg=352426 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 15:46:43 | u=21

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

wm.annis

Congratulate him and John on not getting kidnapped by Elves or Hobbits while in NZ.



msg=352459 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 16:20:11 | u=6892

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Sireayä mokri

Couple of questions I have:

Is is necessary to always put topic in the beginning of a sentence or it's optional?

And are pänutìng and ralpeng transitive?



msg=352514 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 17:24:18 | u=73

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=14395.msg352305#msg352305 date=1290338550]
Txantsana fmawn! Oe sìlpey tsnì ngaru lu prrte' fwa ngeyä ultxa hu karyu Pawl. :)

I'd ask him about the line from the collectors edition of Avatar:

Peyä menarisì nìhawng lu hì'i

And ask him if that was intended or an actor flub of the line.
[/quote]

He may not recognize what this is referring too unless you give him the full context. I don't think he's seen the deleted scenes. Please ask him if this might of had anything to do with CC coming up with the word «snumìna».

Wish them a safe trip back to LA this week!




msg=352527 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 17:43:02 | u=5790

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Muzer

I did a double-take there, because you just mentioned CC, I thought LA = Laz Alonzo :P



msg=352529 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 17:47:05 | u=73

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Prrton

[quote author=Sireayä mokri link=topic=14395.msg352459#msg352459 date=1290356411]
Couple of questions I have:

(1) Is is necessary to always put topic in the beginning of a sentence or it's optional?

(2) And are pänutìng and ralpeng transitive?
[/quote]

Examples you can show him:

(1) "Please tell your mother that I said it would be especially beneficial for your sick brother to drink a weak solution of ball tree sap."

  (A) Tsaria ngeyä tsmukan lu spxin, rutxe Sa'nokur piveng san lu nìpxi sìltsan fwa näk pol meypa naerit payä a ta rumut.

  (B) Rutxe Sa'nokur piveng san lu nìpxi sìltsan fwa näk pol meypa naerit payä a ta rumut sìk, tsaria ngeyä tsmukan lu spxin.

Must it be A? Is B OK, but substandard? Are both A and B equally acceptable?

(2)

"I promised him that I will go tomorrow."

  (A) Oe pänutolìng por tsara kä trray.

  (B) Oel pänutolìng por tsata kä trray.

Is A correct, or is B correct, or should it be something different?

"Tsu'tey translated Jakes message for everyone."

  (A) Ralpoleng Tsu'tey 'upxarer Tsyeykä frapor.

  (B) Ralpoleng Tsu'teyl 'upxareti Tsyeykä frapor.

Is A correct, or is B correct, or should it be something different?




msg=352533 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 17:50:38 | u=73

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Prrton

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=14395.msg352527#msg352527 date=1290361382]
I did a double-take there, because you just mentioned CC, I thought LA = Laz Alonzo :P
[/quote]

  LosÄntsyìlìsì (nìfya'o a plltxe aysute Yu.E.Seyä)  ;)



msg=352536 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 17:53:51 | u=6892

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Sireayä mokri

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14395.msg352529#msg352529 date=1290361625]
 (A) Ralpoleng Tsu'tey 'upxarer Tsyeykä frapor.
[/quote]

I would rather think of topic here:

'Upxareri Tsyeykä ralpoleng Tse'tey frapor.



msg=352553 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 18:08:54 | u=1550

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Taras

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14395.msg352529#msg352529 date=1290361625]
"I promised him that I will go tomorrow."

  (A) Oe pänutolìng por tsara kä trray.

  (B) Oel pänutolìng por tsata kä trray.
[/quote]

I think it should be Oe pänutolìng por tsaria kä trray instead of tsara, kefyak?



msg=352579 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 18:31:03 | u=1746

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Carborundum

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=14395.msg352553#msg352553 date=1290362934]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14395.msg352529#msg352529 date=1290361625]
"I promised him that I will go tomorrow."

  (A) Oe pänutolìng por tsara kä trray.

  (B) Oel pänutolìng por tsata kä trray.
[/quote]

I think it should be Oe pänutolìng por tsaria kä trray instead of tsara, kefyak?
[/quote]It should be tsawa, since that sentence assumes pänutìng to be intransitive.



msg=352582 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 18:33:33 | u=73

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Prrton

[quote author=Sireayä mokri link=topic=14395.msg352536#msg352536 date=1290362031]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14395.msg352529#msg352529 date=1290361625]
 (A) Ralpoleng Tsu'tey 'upxarer Tsyeykä frapor.
[/quote]

I would rather think of topic here:

'Upxareri Tsyeykä ralpoleng Tse'tey frapor.
[/quote]

Yes. But I don't know. That's why it's important for there to be examples. Paul's marking an example is BAD (and explaining why) is just as helpful as getting the right way. Knowing the right way doesn't tell us why the wrong way FEELs wrong to him.

And, sometimes there are multiple correct ways with subtleties in differences. Sometimes those subtleties are important and sometimes not.

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=14395.msg352553#msg352553 date=1290362934]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14395.msg352529#msg352529 date=1290361625]
"I promised him that I will go tomorrow."

  (A) Oe pänutolìng por tsara kä trray.

  (B) Oel pänutolìng por tsata kä trray.
[/quote]

I think it should be Oe pänutolìng por tsaria kä trray instead of tsara, kefyak?
[/quote]

Ibid.




msg=352587 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 18:41:12 | u=21

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

wm.annis

Um.  Ma smuktu.  This is a chat over coffee, not a version of the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/navi-language-workshop/]Language Workshop[/url] for those living under the Southern Cross.  We already know he likes to go meditate about difficult questions. :) It might be best to stay simple.

My only question for him, until after the holidays pass, would be for the Na'vi equivalent of "uh, um" — what to say while you think about what you want to say.  I'd guess just e... or ì... based on the behavior of other languages, but who knows.



msg=352624 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 19:42:49 | u=54

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Tiger

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14395.msg352529#msg352529 date=1290361625]
"I promised him that I will go tomorrow."

  (A) Oe pänutolìng por tsara kä trray.

  (B) Oel pänutolìng por tsata kä trray.
[/quote]Well from the deleted scene we do have Netiriti fkol pänutolìng oeru so I'd imagine it is the second.



msg=352628 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 19:45:25 | u=73

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Prrton

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=14395.msg352624#msg352624 date=1290368569]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14395.msg352529#msg352529 date=1290361625]
"I promised him that I will go tomorrow."

  (A) Oe pänutolìng por tsara kä trray.

  (B) Oel pänutolìng por tsata kä trray.
[/quote]Well from the deleted scene we do have Netiriti fkol pänutolìng oeru so I'd imagine it is the second.
[/quote]

I personally feel that it's transitive too, but it's totally a valid question and we can't know without asking him.




msg=352638 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 19:53:54 | u=6518

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

puvomun

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14395.msg352628#msg352628 date=1290368725]
I personally feel that it's transitive too, but it's totally a valid question and we can't know without asking him.
[/quote]
Perhaps ask karyu Pawl's e-mail address? ;)  8)



msg=352639 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 19:54:09 | u=3552

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14395.msg352587#msg352587 date=1290364872]
Um.  Ma smuktu.  This is a chat over coffee, not a version of the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/navi-language-workshop/]Language Workshop[/url] for those living under the Southern Cross.  We already know he likes to go meditate about difficult questions. :) It might be best to stay simple.

My only question for him, until after the holidays pass, would be for the Na'vi equivalent of "uh, um" — what to say while you think about what you want to say.  I'd guess just e... or ì... based on the behavior of other languages, but who knows.
[/quote]

Okay, that's creepy.  I was just thinking about this.  My guess was ìm...—although rr... could be fun, and very Na'vi  ;D



msg=352642 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 19:56:19 | u=1550

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Taras

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=14395.msg352624#msg352624 date=1290368569]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14395.msg352529#msg352529 date=1290361625]
"I promised him that I will go tomorrow."

  (A) Oe pänutolìng por tsara kä trray.

  (B) Oel pänutolìng por tsata kä trray.
[/quote]Well from the deleted scene we do have Netiriti fkol pänutolìng oeru so I'd imagine it is the second.
[/quote]

Yeah.. therefore this question appeared.. But I don't like that it would be transitive. As yomtìng - it's actually intransitive. But why pänutìng (there is the same scheme: noun + tìng) must be transitive?  :-\\



msg=352645 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 19:59:11 | u=54

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Tiger

Well for one yom isn't a noun...

But yeah given his explanation of why yomtìng is intransitive, that does make it odd that pänutìng is transitive.  And THAT would be a good question.



msg=352646 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 20:00:22 | u=1550

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Taras

Oh, sorry :-[



msg=352700 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 21:36:23 | u=351

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Morsolo

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14395.msg352587#msg352587 date=1290364872]
Um.  Ma smuktu.  This is a chat over coffee, not a version of the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/navi-language-workshop/]Language Workshop[/url] for those living under the Southern Cross.  We already know he likes to go meditate about difficult questions. :) It might be best to stay simple.

My only question for him, until after the holidays pass, would be for the Na'vi equivalent of "uh, um" — what to say while you think about what you want to say.  I'd guess just e... or ì... based on the behavior of other languages, but who knows.
[/quote]

Just woke up, thank you Annis. Yes, I really want to avoid a lot of Na'vi because, well I just want to talk to Paul, not Pawl. If you get what I mean. I'm sure wherever he goes now, he is bombarded with Na'vi questions, so I think it'll be refreshing for him to just have a regular - English - chat.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we wont talk about Na'vi. There's probably 5 hours (give or take) until I meet up with him (at time of this post), so keep posting the more simple questions and I'll do my best to get them answered. I will have my phone on me, which is an Android, which means, if the topic comes up, I can pull up this topic and ask one of the more complex questions, but only if it comes past in conversation.

Sorry guys. Irayo ma Annis :P

On a side note, and Puvomun has already mentioned this: But why don't you email Paul? Sometimes he's pretty quick with these things. :)



msg=352702 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 21:41:26 | u=6582

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=14395.msg352639#msg352639 date=1290369249]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14395.msg352587#msg352587 date=1290364872]
Um.  Ma smuktu.  This is a chat over coffee, not a version of the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/navi-language-workshop/]Language Workshop[/url] for those living under the Southern Cross.  We already know he likes to go meditate about difficult questions. :) It might be best to stay simple.

My only question for him, until after the holidays pass, would be for the Na'vi equivalent of "uh, um" — what to say while you think about what you want to say.  I'd guess just e... or ì... based on the behavior of other languages, but who knows.
[/quote]

Okay, that's creepy.  I was just thinking about this.  My guess was ìm...—although rr... could be fun, and very Na'vi  ;D
[/quote]
Tì'efumì oeyä, I've been using ìììììììììììììì..., and as cool as something like "rrrrrrrrrr" would sound, it doesn't seem right.




msg=352715 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 22:02:58 | u=21

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

wm.annis

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14395.msg352702#msg352702 date=1290375686]
Tì'efumì oeyä, I've been using ìììììììììììììì..., and as cool as something like "rrrrrrrrrr" would sound, it doesn't seem right.
[/quote]

Yeah.  Cross culturally, mid-height vowels are very common if the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filler_(linguistics)]filler[/url] is a noise instead of a word.  Some languages use words instead, usually weak demonstratives or things like "I mean, it means, etc."



msg=352726 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 22:26:33 | u=6582

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14395.msg352715#msg352715 date=1290376978]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14395.msg352702#msg352702 date=1290375686]
Tì'efumì oeyä, I've been using ìììììììììììììì..., and as cool as something like "rrrrrrrrrr" would sound, it doesn't seem right.
[/quote]

Yeah.  Cross culturally, mid-height vowels are very common if the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filler_(linguistics)]filler[/url] is a noise instead of a word.  Some languages use words instead, usually weak demonstratives or things like "I mean, it means, etc."
[/quote]

I've also seen a usage of "tse" for something like this in the Na'vi nìaw forum by [desc=IIRC]Plumps[/desc], and perhaps other word-fillers are possible.




msg=352746 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 22:51:41 | u=73

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Prrton

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14395.msg352702#msg352702 date=1290375686]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=14395.msg352639#msg352639 date=1290369249]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14395.msg352587#msg352587 date=1290364872]
Um.  Ma smuktu.  This is a chat over coffee, not a version of the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/navi-language-workshop/]Language Workshop[/url] for those living under the Southern Cross.  We already know he likes to go meditate about difficult questions. :) It might be best to stay simple.

My only question for him, until after the holidays pass, would be for the Na'vi equivalent of "uh, um" — what to say while you think about what you want to say.  I'd guess just e... or ì... based on the behavior of other languages, but who knows.
[/quote]

Okay, that's creepy.  I was just thinking about this.  My guess was ìm...—although rr... could be fun, and very Na'vi  ;D
[/quote]
Tì'efumì oeyä, I've been using ìììììììììììììì..., and as cool as something like "rrrrrrrrrr" would sound, it doesn't seem right.


[/quote]

I fully support your wanting to socialize and not dish grammar, but it may be interesting to him that when you inquired what people wanted to ask, they had lots of questions about the language.

Enjoy your time with him, I hope it will be tons of fun for both of you.




msg=352750 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 22:58:19 | u=3552

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

tigermind

[quote author=Tsyeymzi link=topic=14395.msg352700#msg352700 date=1290375383]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14395.msg352587#msg352587 date=1290364872]
Um.  Ma smuktu.  This is a chat over coffee, not a version of the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/navi-language-workshop/]Language Workshop[/url] for those living under the Southern Cross.  We already know he likes to go meditate about difficult questions. :) It might be best to stay simple.

My only question for him, until after the holidays pass, would be for the Na'vi equivalent of "uh, um" — what to say while you think about what you want to say.  I'd guess just e... or ì... based on the behavior of other languages, but who knows.
[/quote]

Just woke up, thank you Annis. Yes, I really want to avoid a lot of Na'vi because, well I just want to talk to Paul, not Pawl. If you get what I mean. I'm sure wherever he goes now, he is bombarded with Na'vi questions, so I think it'll be refreshing for him to just have a regular - English - chat.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we wont talk about Na'vi. There's probably 5 hours (give or take) until I meet up with him (at time of this post), so keep posting the more simple questions and I'll do my best to get them answered. I will have my phone on me, which is an Android, which means, if the topic comes up, I can pull up this topic and ask one of the more complex questions, but only if it comes past in conversation.

Sorry guys. Irayo ma Annis :P

On a side note, and Puvomun has already mentioned this: But why don't you email Paul? Sometimes he's pretty quick with these things. :)
[/quote]

HRH  ;D  Ngaru tìyawr, hìtxoa.  When the opportunity to ask Karyu Pawl a question arises i can get a little carried away  :D



msg=352758 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-21 23:13:59 | u=1746

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Carborundum

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=14395.msg352750#msg352750 date=1290380299]
HRH  ;D  Ngaru tìyawr, hìtxoa.  When the opportunity to ask Karyu Pawl a question arises i the entire community can get a little carried away  :D
[/quote]FTFY ;D



msg=352874 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-22 03:56:40 | u=4325

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Nawma Ngawng

......>:C



msg=352931 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-22 04:46:11 | u=6392

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Orcakat

Sorry that this is a little late, chico... but if you could, would you mind asking him what his favorite foreign language (excluding Na'vi) is?



msg=352947 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-22 06:08:11 | u=6023

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Txona Rolyu

I have a couple!

I'd like to know if we will have a word for "breathe" soon. Also words for "shiny" (perhaps just a verb for "shine") and words to describe articles of clothing/jewelry. I mean, the Na'vi do have loin cloths, belts, headdresses, armbands, necklaces, bracelets, etc. but we have no words for any of it. I know there was a huge lexicon expansion done a while ago and I'm sure these words are on a list somewhere, but I haven't seen them in the dictionary.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=352956 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-22 06:46:06 | u=351

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Morsolo

DONE! That was awesome, Paul is a great guy. Shouted us a $100 lunch. We didn't talk about Na'vi much, we talked about Avatar in general more; and even then, the most common topic was actually food. Of the Earthen variety. He likes Asian cuisine very much. We ate Korean. It was nom nom nom :P

[quote author=Orcakat link=topic=14395.msg352931#msg352931 date=1290401171]
Sorry that this is a little late, chico... but if you could, would you mind asking him what his favorite foreign language (excluding Na'vi) is?
[/quote]

Too slow! But, we did talk about languages and he said he really likes the dead languages: Latin, Ancient Greek; and he knows Middle English, which was cool... and a bit weird.

[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=14395.msg352947#msg352947 date=1290406091]
I have a couple!

I'd like to know if we will have a word for "breathe" soon. Also words for "shiny" (perhaps just a verb for "shine") and words to describe articles of clothing/jewelry. I mean, the Na'vi do have loin cloths, belts, headdresses, armbands, necklaces, bracelets, etc. but we have no words for any of it. I know there was a huge lexicon expansion done a while ago and I'm sure these words are on a list somewhere, but I haven't seen them in the dictionary.

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

Damn, I could have asked these, but we'd already finished by then... Sorry...

[quote author=Puvomun link=topic=14395.msg352300#msg352300 date=1290337252]
Tewti!! I jump immediately!
Na'vi has a word for writing (pamrel) but I have not found a word for reading yet. Is there one or will there be one?

(OME, you are really going to meet him? WOU!)
[/quote]

I DID get this one :) ... Paul said that no, there isn't a word for reading - but no, he didn't come up with one on the spot.

He did however, say he'll think about it and perhaps come up with a form of "To observe and gain information", his analogy was similar to "reading the forest". He used a Chinese example, because in Chinese, their word for "read" is basically "to look at the writing". Hopefully this gives you the information; and hopefully he'll come up with a word soon :)

As for all you guys having that massive debate somewhere in this thread (lol)... No, I didn't ask him, it's far too complex. I did bring up the fact that you guys were having a debate; and he said "tell them to email me, because the more complex questions I couldn't answer off the top of my head" (to paraphrase).

He laughed when he said "email", because yes, he knows he's slow. But he's been busy. Cut him some slack. :)

...and he signed my Activist Survival Guide. eeeee. :P



msg=352994 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-22 11:59:00 | u=5139

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Hrrap

awesome!  ;D



msg=353052 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-22 15:44:46 | u=6518

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

puvomun

Wou! So glad to 'hear' you had a great time! :D



msg=353063 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-22 15:59:15 | u=3552

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

tigermind

Awesome!  Glad to know you had a good time, ma tsmuktu  :D



msg=353069 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-22 16:11:05 | u=6892

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Sireayä mokri

[quote author=Tsyeymzi link=topic=14395.msg352956#msg352956 date=1290408366]
He did however, say he'll think about it and perhaps come up with a form of "To observe and gain information", his analogy was similar to "reading the forest". He used a Chinese example, because in Chinese, their word for "read" is basically "to look at the writing". Hopefully this gives you the information; and hopefully he'll come up with a word soon :)
[/quote]

That would be just brilliant! I like this idea a lot :D



msg=353075 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-22 16:16:18 | u=6518

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

puvomun

[quote author=Sireayä mokri link=topic=14395.msg353069#msg353069 date=1290442265]
[quote author=Tsyeymzi link=topic=14395.msg352956#msg352956 date=1290408366]
He did however, say he'll think about it and perhaps come up with a form of "To observe and gain information", his analogy was similar to "reading the forest". He used a Chinese example, because in Chinese, their word for "read" is basically "to look at the writing". Hopefully this gives you the information; and hopefully he'll come up with a word soon :)
[/quote]

That would be just brilliant! I like this idea a lot :D
[/quote]
Oh yes, that is great!! ;D



msg=353505 | topic=14395 | board=99 | time=2010-11-23 07:50:45 | u=6023

Re: Got any questions for Paul?

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Tsyeymzi link=topic=14395.msg352956#msg352956 date=1290408366]
[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=14395.msg352947#msg352947 date=1290406091]
I have a couple!

I'd like to know if we will have a word for "breathe" soon. Also words for "shiny" (perhaps just a verb for "shine") and words to describe articles of clothing/jewelry. I mean, the Na'vi do have loin cloths, belts, headdresses, armbands, necklaces, bracelets, etc. but we have no words for any of it. I know there was a huge lexicon expansion done a while ago and I'm sure these words are on a list somewhere, but I haven't seen them in the dictionary.

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

Damn, I could have asked these, but we'd already finished by then... Sorry...
[/quote]

That's ok :) Congrats on the autograph! I can't wait to see that word for "read" I knew there was one I was forgetting to list lol. I'm glad you had a good time!

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=355638 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 02:15:46 | u=21

"Capturing Avatar"

wm.annis

Yet another bit of Na'vi from the documentary stuff.  This time, from the "Capturing Avatar" stuff on the 3rd DVD.  28 minutes in, we get another screen shot of some Na'vi dialog on a page.

Fayvrrtep fìtsenge lu kxanì.  Fìpoti oel tspìyang, fte tìkenong liyevu aylaru.
These demons are forbidden here.  I will kill this one as a lesson to the others.

The translation is what's on the page.  Literally it's a bit different.  Nothing new really here, though we've not seen fìpo much used.



msg=355641 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 02:32:04 | u=6023

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Txona Rolyu

Wouldn't that be "aylaru" and "lìyevu" (with the grave ì?") Just curious.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=355644 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 02:36:57 | u=1550

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Taras

[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=14506.msg355641#msg355641 date=1290738724]
Wouldn't that be "aylaru"
[/quote]

Maybe it's just a typo?

[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=14506.msg355641#msg355641 date=1290738724]
"lìyevu" (with the grave ì?")
[/quote]

There is no difference :)



msg=355648 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 02:44:08 | u=21

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

wm.annis

[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=14506.msg355641#msg355641 date=1290738724]
Wouldn't that be "aylaru" and "lìyevu" (with the grave ì?") Just curious.[/quote]

D'oh!  Aylaru fixed.

It's hard for me to see in liyevu what the iyev/ìyev choice is.  The fake English-ese phonetics make me think it's liyevu.  But as Kemaweyan says, it's not a huge question.



msg=355700 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 04:50:08 | u=1975

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Ean Tirea

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14506.msg355648#msg355648 date=1290739448]
[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=14506.msg355641#msg355641 date=1290738724]
Wouldn't that be "aylaru" and "lìyevu" (with the grave ì?") Just curious.[/quote]

D'oh!   Aylaru fixed.

It's hard for me to see in liyevu what the iyev/ìyev choice is.  The fake English-ese phonetics make me think it's liyevu.  But as Kemaweyan says, it's not a huge question.
[/quote]

to me, it always makes sense to not use the grave i, since AFIK it is really the i from iv:

iv gets split open to put in ìy. but sometimes it is more apparently natural to pronounce the i as a ì. so really, whichever is more natural to pronounce should be the answer to which to use. they are canonized to be eqivalent.



msg=355702 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 04:52:07 | u=6582

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14506.msg355700#msg355700 date=1290747008]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14506.msg355648#msg355648 date=1290739448]
[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=14506.msg355641#msg355641 date=1290738724]
Wouldn't that be "aylaru" and "lìyevu" (with the grave ì?") Just curious.[/quote]

D'oh!   Aylaru fixed.

It's hard for me to see in liyevu what the iyev/ìyev choice is.  The fake English-ese phonetics make me think it's liyevu.  But as Kemaweyan says, it's not a huge question.
[/quote]

to me, it always makes sense to not use the grave i, since AFIK it is really the i from iv:

iv gets split open to put in ìy. but sometimes it is more apparently natural to pronounce the i as a ì. so really, whichever is more natural to pronounce should be the answer to which to use. they are canonized to be eqivalent.
[/quote]

It could also be possible that "ìyev" is a mere "i" laxing beofre the "y" in "iyev" for ease of pronounciation.




msg=355714 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 05:13:59 | u=1975

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14506.msg355702#msg355702 date=1290747127]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14506.msg355700#msg355700 date=1290747008]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14506.msg355648#msg355648 date=1290739448]
[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=14506.msg355641#msg355641 date=1290738724]
Wouldn't that be "aylaru" and "lìyevu" (with the grave ì?") Just curious.[/quote]

D'oh!   Aylaru fixed.

It's hard for me to see in liyevu what the iyev/ìyev choice is.  The fake English-ese phonetics make me think it's liyevu.  But as Kemaweyan says, it's not a huge question.
[/quote]

to me, it always makes sense to not use the grave i, since AFIK it is really the i from iv:

iv gets split open to put in ìy. but sometimes it is more apparently natural to pronounce the i as a ì. so really, whichever is more natural to pronounce should be the answer to which to use. they are canonized to be eqivalent.
[/quote]

It could also be possible that "ìyev" is a mere "i" laxing beofre the "y" in "iyev" for ease of pronounciation.


[/quote]

it is...but i think its actually easier to say iyev sometimes. that laxing only happens when it is natural to do so. i feel sometimes getting the ì in that correctly takes too much work where the i would be easier. just me, i guess.



msg=356091 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 10:37:49 | u=5657

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Ikran Ahiyìk

imv is from iv and am/ìm, so weather this is from iv and ay.. or ìy, iyev make more sense. And i is much more faster than ì in typing. But the problem is, we always use ìyev, and there is a word kìyevame... :P



msg=356230 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 17:00:52 | u=1975

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Ikran Ahiyìk link=topic=14506.msg356091#msg356091 date=1290767869]
imv is from iv and am/ìm, so weather this is from iv and ay.. or ìy, iyev make more sense. And i is much more faster than ì in typing. But the problem is, we always use ìyev, and there is a word kìyevame... :P
[/quote]

yeah...but if you have my custom Na'vi kb (cough) then it is equally as fast to type ä, ì, and a and i. ;)

the word may be kìyevame, but very often these days, since I PRONOUNCE it more naturally as kiyevame, i tend to write it that way. and it has been clearly said, even by Paul, ages ago , that kiyevame and kìyevame are equal and interchangable as any word to contain [iyev]=[ìyev]



msg=356391 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 21:10:30 | u=6023

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Txona Rolyu

Cool I didn't know i'd start a whole discussion about this lol. Well now I know that <iyev> and <ìyev> are both equally acceptable :) and I agree that pronunciation is easier with the regular i and that the regular i makes more sense anyway. Thanks all!

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=356453 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-26 22:40:28 | u=1975

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=14506.msg356391#msg356391 date=1290805830]
Cool I didn't know i'd start a whole discussion about this lol. Well now I know that <iyev> and <ìyev> are both equally acceptable :) and I agree that pronunciation is easier with the regular i and that the regular i makes more sense anyway. Thanks all!

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

I mean there ARE times where it seems more natural to use ìyev over iyev... back on topic perhaps? Srry guys D:



msg=356506 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-27 00:51:28 | u=21

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

wm.annis

Oy!  This is just an abbreviated version of what's in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/pseudo-canon-from-bd-live-content/]BD-Live[/url] content.



msg=356527 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-27 01:31:26 | u=430

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

TehMightyPirate

I can't seem to find the email from Frommer, perhaps it's on my laptop, but a paraphrase from him that I remember quite well (it was one of my first emails to him) he mentioned that kìyevame is the preferred or "proper" form of that word. I'm not sure what this means for <iyev> vs <ìyev> but I wonder if it comes down to certain words will take certain forms?

If I can dig up that email I'll post it here.



msg=357452 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-28 19:15:08 | u=1975

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=14506.msg356527#msg356527 date=1290821486]
I can't seem to find the email from Frommer, perhaps it's on my laptop, but a paraphrase from him that I remember quite well (it was one of my first emails to him) he mentioned that kìyevame is the preferred or "proper" form of that word. I'm not sure what this means for <iyev> vs <ìyev> but I wonder if it comes down to certain words will take certain forms?

If I can dig up that email I'll post it here.
[/quote]

its cuz kìyevame caught on so quick and spread so wide and didnt give a chance to the iyev version. thats probably not 100% thue tho.

thanks for that!



msg=357485 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-28 19:52:49 | u=54

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Tiger

It "caught on quick" because it is the only form that we have ever had from Frommer.  While he did explain how iyev became ìyev, he has never really given the "kiyevame" form.  And really it's not like it's hard to pronounce it as kìyevame, especially if you take the laxing of i->ì as almost turning into a schwa as I suspect is the intent here.  (Frommer has stated in an email to me that he thinks in unstressed syllables, ì can tend towards a schwa.)  Along with that, I imagine there is perhaps even a weakening of the y so it becomes more of a ì approximate than an i approximate.



msg=357518 | topic=14506 | board=99 | time=2010-11-28 20:24:46 | u=1975

Re: "Capturing Avatar"

Ean Tirea

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=14506.msg357485#msg357485 date=1290973969]
It "caught on quick" because it is the only form that we have ever had from Frommer.  While he did explain how iyev became ìyev, he has never really given the "kiyevame" form.  And really it's not like it's hard to pronounce it as kìyevame, especially if you take the laxing of i->ì as almost turning into a schwa as I suspect is the intent here.  (Frommer has stated in an email to me that he thinks in unstressed syllables, ì can tend towards a schwa.)  Along with that, I imagine there is perhaps even a weakening of the y so it becomes more of a ì approximate than an i approximate.
[/quote]

makes sense.



msg=359299 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 13:37:02 | u=21

As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

wm.annis

After two discussions recently on the forums ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/re-ma/][1][/url], [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/as-adj-as/][2][/url]), I decided to tack on two questions to some email to Frommer about the Vocabulary Committee.  After a few days of meditation and discussion...

As ADJ/ADV as N/PRN
For this he decided to create a modification of fìtxannìftxan, which works with na:

[quote=Frommer]
Oe lu nìftxan sìltsan na nga.

I’d also like to allow an optional –ri form in place of na:

Ngari lu oe nìftxan sìltsan.

That wouldn’t work all the time. For example:

?Utralìri lu fìpo nìftxan tsawl.

That places too much emphasis on utral, which is only the standard of comparison and presumably hasn’t yet figured into the conversation. In this case na utral would be preferable.
[/quote]

I asked for clarification about the use of the topical, "So, nìftxan...na... always possible, with a topical point of comparison for old information (pronouns, discourse topics we've already seen that for some reason we want to use as a point of comparison)?"  His answer, "Correct."

We can also use this construction with adverbs.


The Continuative: Keep on Keepin' on
After discussion involving both Tirea Aean's suggestion of salew, and Frommer's own preference for 'ì'awn, a follow-up question from me about states (grammatically speaking) led him to create a new verb, var:

[quote=Frommer]I've been thinking about this for a while, and I've decided to go with a new verb, var. As a main verb it means 'to persist in a state, to continue to perform an action.' As such, it can take the place of mi with a repeated verb. For example, instead of this:

-Pol trram yerikit tarmaron. 'He was hunting hexapede yesterday.'
-Fìtrr mi teraron. 'He's still hunting (hexapede) today.'

you could simply say:

-Pol trram yerikit tarmaron. 'He was hunting hexapede yesterday.'
-Fìtrr var. 'He still is today.'

As a helping verb, it functions in place of salew/'ì'awn that we discussed earlier:

Var nivume ko! 'Let's keep learning!'
[/quote]

Na'vi has interesting kinds of anaphora.  In any case, var nivume ko!



msg=359306 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 13:45:05 | u=1975

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ean Tirea

You sir are amazing.

Thank you for posting this. To the wiki canon!



msg=359316 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 14:04:25 | u=1550

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Taras

Irayo nìtxan :)



msg=359319 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 14:19:52 | u=132

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Taronyu

Sweet man!

Added var. Glad to get new stuff!



msg=359327 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 14:29:04 | u=4

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

zombat

Been wanting this verb for a while now, and I like how simple and easily remembered it is :)



msg=359333 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 14:50:00 | u=1975

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=14597.msg359319#msg359319 date=1291213192]
Sweet man!

Added var. Glad to get new stuff!
[/quote]

what about nìftxan?

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=341.msg359331#msg359331 date=1291214903]
Missed nìftxan when I uploaded var. Cheers annis!
[/quote]



msg=359344 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 15:14:43 | u=631

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]YES! :D
Been looking forward to this construction for so long :)
Thanks for sharing, ma William



msg=359423 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 16:51:34 | u=3552

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

tigermind

Cool!  So, would you also use var for something that conveys, "I have been doing X since yesterday"?  How would you do that?

(P.S., i'm guessing "since" ultimately will come from a word that functions as the opposite of vay(krr?), but i dunno).



msg=359445 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 17:29:27 | u=1975

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=14597.msg359423#msg359423 date=1291222294]
Cool!  So, would you also use var for something that conveys, "I have been doing X since yesterday"?  How would you do that?

(P.S., i'm guessing "since" ultimately will come from a word that functions as the opposite of vay(krr?), but i dunno).
[/quote]

hmmm a good follow up question i didnt think of, but HAVE thought about before: "I have been a member since____" or he has been ___ing since ____...



msg=359499 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 19:14:55 | u=965

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ataeghane

That's one problem. And what about 'for'? (I've been learning for 2 hours.) Is it the same construction?



msg=359502 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 19:17:18 | u=1975

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Ataeghane link=topic=14597.msg359499#msg359499 date=1291230895]
That's one problem. And what about 'for'? (I've been learning for 2 hours.) Is it the same construction?
[/quote]

for, I believe is covered by either

the adp -fpi+

or

the topic noun case -ri

totally depending on what the sentence is



msg=359512 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 19:33:45 | u=965

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ataeghane

Well, I think I don't get it. Can you gimme some examples? For example, how would you say: 'I've been learning for 2 hours'?



msg=359518 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 19:35:38 | u=21

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

wm.annis

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14597.msg359502#msg359502 date=1291231038]for, I believe is covered by either

the adp -fpi+

or

the topic noun case -ri
[/quote]

Neither of those is going to work for the sense of "for (some period of time)," I'm pretty sure.

If we trust Norm's dialog, it looks like we just use the correct time expression in the subjective.  Plenty of time words seem to be happy to act as either nouns or as adverbs.

Zìsìt amrr ftolia ohe, slä zene fko nivume nìtxan.
I studied for five years but there is much to learn.



msg=359524 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 19:41:04 | u=965

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ataeghane

Well, Norm is not native, so I don't know if we can totally trust him, but still, it may be correct. And what about "since"? We don't really know?



msg=359531 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 19:46:38 | u=631

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Plumps83

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14597.msg359518#msg359518 date=1291232138]
Neither of those is going to work for the sense of "for (some period of time)," I'm pretty sure.

If we trust Norm's dialog, it looks like we just use the correct time expression in the subjective.  Plenty of time words seem to be happy to act as either nouns or as adverbs.

Zìsìt amrr ftolia ohe, slä zene fko nivume nìtxan.
I studied for five years but there is much to learn.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I can answer that later ... but am not at my home PC right now to varify that with a quote from him.



msg=359533 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 19:48:48 | u=1975

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ean Tirea

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14597.msg359518#msg359518 date=1291232138]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14597.msg359502#msg359502 date=1291231038]for, I believe is covered by either

the adp -fpi+

or

the topic noun case -ri
[/quote]

Neither of those is going to work for the sense of "for (some period of time)," I'm pretty sure.

If we trust Norm's dialog, it looks like we just use the correct time expression in the subjective.  Plenty of time words seem to be happy to act as either nouns or as adverbs.

Zìsìt amrr ftolia ohe, slä zene fko nivume nìtxan.
I studied for five years but there is much to learn.

[/quote]

I see i misinterpreted this. We do not have an equivalent phrase to "for [amount of time],..." or "since [amount of time], ..."

I'm with Annis. Norm's quote is the closest we have to a structure like this.

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14597.msg359531#msg359531 date=1291232798]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14597.msg359518#msg359518 date=1291232138]
Neither of those is going to work for the sense of "for (some period of time)," I'm pretty sure.

If we trust Norm's dialog, it looks like we just use the correct time expression in the subjective.  Plenty of time words seem to be happy to act as either nouns or as adverbs.

Zìsìt amrr ftolia ohe, slä zene fko nivume nìtxan.
I studied for five years but there is much to learn.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I can answer that later ... but am not at my home PC right now to varify that with a quote from him.
[/quote]

how long will that be?



msg=359542 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 19:57:39 | u=73

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Prrton


Ooooh. Lovely!! I especially like the pum/var mutual nod.

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14597.msg359445#msg359445 date=1291224567]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=14597.msg359423#msg359423 date=1291222294]
Cool!  So, would you also use var for something that conveys, "I have been doing X since yesterday"?  How would you do that?

(P.S., i'm guessing "since" ultimately will come from a word that functions as the opposite of vay(krr?), but i dunno).
[/quote]

hmmm a good follow up question i didnt think of, but HAVE thought about before: "I have been a member since____" or he has been ___ing since ____...
[/quote]

The since/for [time period]/ago complex is one of the outstanding topics from LEP A.

I think that we have ways to cover all of them if «TA» can be used for ‘since’.

The ‘for’ + [time period] problem can be handled by imperfective -er- plus the time period.

‘Ago’ can be expressed with TAM past-perfective -alm-/-ìlm- and «sreset».

It will be interesting to see if indeed TA can be SINCE and if there are other clarifying tweaks that come up when this LEP A ground eventually does get covered.

The real challenge in my opinon is ‘by’ in the since of ‘I will finish it by Thursday morning.’ Will sre- simply suffice? Or, is it vaysre- or srevay- or some such?

There is a bit of complexity with Na’vi time in that the Na’vi apparently travel forward in time (salew) in a temporal bubble (which is the present (sekrr)) while time is traveling TOWARDS them in the opposite direction at the same time. It's like cars passing on the highway. Both are moving. The underlying model for this is revealed in the grammar of zusawkrr and ftawnemkrr. Salew and ’ì’awn (and now var) work well within this underlying construct. All of this came up as a function of O.F., Judy and I going to that Long Now Seminar on how Language Shapes Thought. K. Pawl has never written about it on his blog, but we’ve discussed it. It will be nice to publish it some day as visual model. I have one done, but he’s not had time to examine it thoroughly yet.

The «sekrr» bubble for temporal experience also likely has a relationship to ‘existence’ and ‘reality’. K. Pawl has yet to rule on how these reveal themselves linguistically.

PS: The Vulcan word for story is VAR. That will help me remember via the "narrative continues".



msg=359547 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 20:04:59 | u=1975

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14597.msg359542#msg359542 date=1291233459]

Ooooh. Lovely!! I especially like the pum/var mutual nod.
[/quote]

what?

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14597.msg359542#msg359542 date=1291233459]

[...]

The real challenge in my opinon is ‘by’ in the since of ‘I will finish it by Thursday morning.’ Will sre- simply suffice? Or, is it vaysre- or srevay- or some such?
[/quote]

I'm thinking sre+.

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14597.msg359542#msg359542 date=1291233459]
There is a bit of complexity with Na’vi time in that the Na’vi apparently travel forward in time (salew) in a temporal bubble (which is the present (sekrr)) while time is traveling TOWARDS them in the opposite direction at the same time. It's like cars passing on the highway. Both are moving. The underlying model for this is revealed in the grammar of zusawkrr and ftawnemkrr. Salew and ’ì’awn (and now var) work well within this underlying construct. All of this came up as a function of O.F., Judy and I going to that Long Now Seminar on how Language Shapes Thought. K. Pawl has never written about it on his blog, but we’ve discussed it. It will be nice to publish it some day as visual model. I have one done, but he’s not had time to examine it thoroughly yet.

The «sekrr» bubble for temporal experience also likely has a relationship to ‘existence’ and ‘reality’. K. Pawl has yet to rule on how these reveal themselves linguistically.
[/quote]

Fascinating!

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14597.msg359542#msg359542 date=1291233459]
PS: The Vulcan word for story is VAR. That will help me remember via the "narrative continues".
[/quote]

PS: the Na'vi word for story is VUR. HRH ::)



msg=359570 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 20:29:51 | u=7206

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Kamean

Irayo nìtxan! :D



msg=359582 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 20:39:19 | u=21

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

wm.annis

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14597.msg359547#msg359547 date=1291233899]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14597.msg359542#msg359542 date=1291233459]

Ooooh. Lovely!! I especially like the pum/var mutual nod.
[/quote]

what?
[/quote]

Anaphora ("carrying up") is what pronouns do — they replace a noun with a placeholder so we don't have to keep naming the noun phrase.  Pum is a funky kind of anaphora, too, because Na'vi pronouns cannot be possessed or take adjective modifiers.  Var is an anaphoric verb, in its first listed use, at least.



msg=359585 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 20:41:39 | u=3552

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

tigermind

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14597.msg359542#msg359542 date=1291233459]
[...all of this...][/quote]

You rock my socks a little.  Just thought you should know.

[quote]PS: The Vulcan word for story is VAR. That will help me remember via the "narrative continues".[/quote]

Var is the Turkish "there is/there are" (cf. French il y a).  This doesn't help me in the slightest.  Although ask me sometime how it gets used in possessive constructions... XD



msg=359592 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 20:46:30 | u=985

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Nyx

Thanks for the update :D I've needed this for a while. Also, I love how discussions here always bring up new things for me to learn ^^



msg=359694 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 22:54:16 | u=5790

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Muzer

[quote author=Ataeghane link=topic=14597.msg359524#msg359524 date=1291232464]
Well, Norm is not native, so I don't know if we can totally trust him, but still, it may be correct. And what about "since"? We don't really know?
[/quote]

I assume it's correct though, considering Grace calls it "a little formal"...



msg=359709 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 23:28:44 | u=1975

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Muzer link=topic=14597.msg359694#msg359694 date=1291244056]
[quote author=Ataeghane link=topic=14597.msg359524#msg359524 date=1291232464]
Well, Norm is not native, so I don't know if we can totally trust him, but still, it may be correct. And what about "since"? We don't really know?
[/quote]

I assume it's correct though, considering Grace calls it "a little formal"...
[/quote]

but he says that AFTER she says that...XD



msg=359713 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 23:31:38 | u=631

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]See [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/for-%28duration%29-jesus-loan-word/msg359711/#msg359711]here[/url]

It’s supposed to be zìsìto amrr



msg=359717 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 23:41:26 | u=1975

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14597.msg359713#msg359713 date=1291246298]
[font=Georgia]See [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/for-%28duration%29-jesus-loan-word/msg359711/#msg359711]here[/url]

It’s supposed to be zìsìto amrr

[/quote]

Thank you VERY much for posting that ;D



msg=359771 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 01:25:46 | u=1225

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

neotrekkerz

So linguistically, var is an anaphoric verb, but because of its propensity to be used as a helping verb would it be going too far to call it modal?



msg=359775 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 01:36:46 | u=21

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

wm.annis

[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=14597.msg359771#msg359771 date=1291253146]So linguistically, var is an anaphoric verb, but because of its propensity to be used as a helping verb would it be going too far to call it modal?[/quote]

I would say it follows modal syntax.  Modal verbs are more narrowly related to things like ability, obligation, possibility, etc.



msg=360967 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 02:08:47 | u=6582

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14597.msg359547#msg359547 date=1291233899]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14597.msg359542#msg359542 date=1291233459]

Ooooh. Lovely!! I especially like the pum/var mutual nod.
[/quote]

what?
[/quote]

Sran.  I imagine it is better compared to "tut" than to "pum", and in fact is the verbal form.

BTW, do we have confirmation from Frommer that "var" is modal?




msg=360982 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 02:23:48 | u=21

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

wm.annis

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14597.msg360967#msg360967 date=1291428527]BTW, do we have confirmation from Frommer that "var" is modal?[/quote]

It's in the examples in my first post — var follows modal syntax.  I suspect I might be missing the point of this question, though.

I use this phrasing, "modal syntax," since, strictly speaking, modals are about possibility, obligation and the like.  But in Na'vi modal verbs and auxiliary verbs follow the same syntax.



msg=361548 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 23:50:38 | u=21

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

wm.annis

I've been reading about Uto-Aztecan languages recently.  Many of those lack a separate way to say "less X than Y," and instead simply negate the "as... as..." construction.  Until Frommer comes up with a "less X than Y" construction, this seems like a reasonable way to deal with the gap.

  Nga ke tul nìftxan nìwin na oe.
  You don't run as quickly as I do; you run less quickly than I do.



msg=361552 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-05 00:04:26 | u=1975

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

Ean Tirea

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14597.msg361548#msg361548 date=1291506638]
I've been reading about Uto-Aztecan languages recently.  Many of those lack a separate way to say "less X than Y," and instead simply negate the "as... as..." construction.  Until Frommer comes up with a "less X than Y" construction, this seems like a reasonable way to deal with the gap.

  Nga ke tul nìftxan nìwin na oe.
  You don't run as quickly as I do; you run less quickly than I do.

[/quote]

ahhh yess that's a nice observation. :)



msg=361608 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-05 01:33:51 | u=3552

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

tigermind

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14597.msg361548#msg361548 date=1291506638]
I've been reading about Uto-Aztecan languages recently.  Many of those lack a separate way to say "less X than Y," and instead simply negate the "as... as..." construction.  Until Frommer comes up with a "less X than Y" construction, this seems like a reasonable way to deal with the gap.

  Nga ke tul nìftxan nìwin na oe.
  You don't run as quickly as I do; you run less quickly than I do.

[/quote]

Interesting.  The lack of that construct might say something about the culture's worldview...

*shrug* Or it might not, dunno.



msg=362414 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-06 07:53:48 | u=6582

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14597.msg360982#msg360982 date=1291429428]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14597.msg360967#msg360967 date=1291428527]BTW, do we have confirmation from Frommer that "var" is modal?[/quote]

It's in the examples in my first post — var follows modal syntax.  I suspect I might be missing the point of this question, though.

I use this phrasing, "modal syntax," since, strictly speaking, modals are about possibility, obligation and the like.  But in Na'vi modal verbs and auxiliary verbs follow the same syntax.
[/quote]

To clarify: is it correct to say Vivar 'ong Na'vi or must fko say Vivar 'ivong Na'vi instead?

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14597.msg361548#msg361548 date=1291506638]
I've been reading about Uto-Aztecan languages recently.  Many of those lack a separate way to say "less X than Y," and instead simply negate the "as... as..." construction.  Until Frommer comes up with a "less X than Y" construction, this seems like a reasonable way to deal with the gap.

  Nga ke tul nìftxan nìwin na oe.
  You don't run as quickly as I do; you run less quickly than I do.

[/quote]

fascinating, and probably useful, considering Na'vi doesn't have a word/substitution for "[desc=as in something simple like, "Nìtrrtrr oe noläk ???", I drunk less daily]less[/desc]" :P




msg=362527 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-06 13:31:42 | u=21

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

wm.annis

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14597.msg362414#msg362414 date=1291622028]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14597.msg360982#msg360982 date=1291429428]
[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14597.msg360967#msg360967 date=1291428527]BTW, do we have confirmation from Frommer that "var" is modal?[/quote]

It's in the examples in my first post — var follows modal syntax.  I suspect I might be missing the point of this question, though.
[/quote]

To clarify: is it correct to say Vivar 'ong Na'vi or must fko say Vivar 'ivong Na'vi instead?[/quote]

The dependent verb must take the subjunctive.  So, vivar 'ivong Na'vi.  The first one is an error.



msg=362567 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-06 14:44:32 | u=3552

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

tigermind

Now here's a thought:  With this nìftxan...na construction, can we say, "I have as much teylu as you do"?

*Oeru lu nìftxan teylu na nga(ru?)

Yes-no-maybe?



msg=362633 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-06 17:05:29 | u=195

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

esoanem

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=14597.msg362567#msg362567 date=1291646672]
Now here's a thought:  With this nìftxan...na construction, can we say, "I have as much teylu as you do"?

*Oeru lu nìftxan teylu na nga(ru?)

Yes-no-maybe?
[/quote]

Sounds reasonable to me although I'd expect a re-ordering to prevent someone thinking that I had as much teylu as I had of you:

lu oeru na nga nìftxan teylu

Also, as I believe na and pxel are technically adpositions nga couldn't take -ru as well (if it could then it would avoid the ambiguity without making word order slightly more rigid).



msg=362674 | topic=14597 | board=99 | time=2010-12-06 17:56:12 | u=3552

Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on

tigermind

[quote author=kewnya txamew'itan link=topic=14597.msg362633#msg362633 date=1291655129]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=14597.msg362567#msg362567 date=1291646672]
Now here's a thought:  With this nìftxan...na construction, can we say, "I have as much teylu as you do"?

*Oeru lu nìftxan teylu na nga(ru?)

Yes-no-maybe?
[/quote]

Sounds reasonable to me although I'd expect a re-ordering to prevent someone thinking that I had as much teylu as I had of you:

lu oeru na nga nìftxan teylu[/quote]

Yeah, i was sort of flailing with the word order.  I like yours better, it's much clearer.

[quote]Also, as I believe na and pxel are technically adpositions nga couldn't take -ru as well (if it could then it would avoid the ambiguity without making word order slightly more rigid).
[/quote]

Ah yes, good point.  I hadn't thought of that.



msg=359625 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 21:04:59 | u=631

for (duration), Jesus loan-word & «fmal»

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Fairly simple but it [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/as-x-as-y-keep-on-keepin-on/msg359499/#msg359499]came up[/url] in the other news thread that wm.annis posted earlier today and I had received the answer to how we can express duration (for a while, for an hour, for five years etc.) just this morning.

Karyu Pawl kindly took a look over a translation project in which the line »Maria goes through the forest that had no leafs for seven years« appears.

[quote=Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56][font=Georgia]First of all, the way you express duration is to add -o to the time word:

zìsìto amrr = 'for five years'

ayzìsìto = 'for years'

[…] The structure you want is equivalent to the following (which is of course bad English just as it's bad German, but perfectly correct in many languages):

the forest that there was no leaf to it (i.e., that had no leaf)

So the line would be:

Maria kxamlä na'rìng kä a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk

(tsar = to it)
[/quote]
my emphasis

[font=Georgia]I’ve asked about the [desc=Zìsìt amrr ftolia ohe, slä zene fko nivume nìtxan.]Norm line[/desc] that William pointed out but he didn’t get back to me yet. Given the example above I’d say it’s either an error in the transcript, Norm mispronounces the line or just makes a mistake in his over-ceremonial style.


Also, for all who are working on the Bible translation project, this will be interesting:
[quote=Frommer, ibid.][font=Georgia]As for the translation of Jesus, why not Yeysu? That's close to the way the Italians say it, and besides, there's no reason to retain the Latin ending -us--it's hardly universal!
[/quote]


[font=Georgia]For fmal, see [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/for-%28duration%29-jesus-loan-word/msg372740/#msg372740]this post[/url]



msg=359638 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 21:21:57 | u=2788

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Lance R. Casey

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14606.msg359625#msg359625 date=1291237499]
[quote=Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56]
[font=Georgia][...]
Maria kxamlä na'rìng kä a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
[...]

[/quote]
[/quote]

Non-adjacent subordinator? Wow.



msg=359642 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 21:28:21 | u=21

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

wm.annis

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=14606.msg359638#msg359638 date=1291238517]Non-adjacent subordinator? Wow.[/quote]

Yeah, that gave my brain a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar#Style]Pindaric[/url] lurch.



msg=359650 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 21:37:00 | u=631

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Yeah, I have to say, though, it’s a song, so I guess it’s poetic licence …

It’s amazing how you guys always find something new that was not originally intended to be ›the news‹ ;D



msg=359652 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 21:42:11 | u=7206

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Kamean

Irayo nìtxan! :)



msg=359663 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 21:59:28 | u=4754

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14606.msg359625#msg359625 date=1291237499]

Also, for all who are working on the Bible translation project, this will be interesting:
[quote=Frommer, ibid.][font=Georgia]As for the translation of Jesus, why not Yeysu? That's close to the way the Italians say it, and besides, there's no reason to retain the Latin ending -us--it's hardly universal![/quote]

edit: typo
[/quote]

Tewti txantsan niwotx!

That is definitely very welcome!



msg=359665 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 22:04:35 | u=54

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Tiger

On the "Norm line"....

I actually hear it as "zìsìto amrr ftolia ohe" - but did not know why the -o was there and wasn't 100% confident I wasn't just hearing a poorly pronounced /a/, so I've always left the transcription as "zìsìt amrr".  Now we know better though.



msg=359711 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-01 23:29:36 | u=631

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Plumps83

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=14606.msg359665#msg359665 date=1291241075]
On the "Norm line"....

I actually hear it as "zìsìto amrr ftolia ohe" - but did not know why the -o was there and wasn't 100% confident I wasn't just hearing a poorly pronounced /a/, so I've always left the transcription as "zìsìt amrr".  Now we know better though.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Yup, here’s the confirmation:
[quote=Frommer, 2 Dec ’10, 0:20]It was supposed to be zìsìto amrr--that's the way I submitted the line and taught it to the actor.
[…]
In any event, the transcript should say zìsìto amrr.
[/quote]



msg=359738 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 00:06:30 | u=985

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Nyx

Nice, this is really useful. And I'm glad Norm wasn't wrong ^^



msg=359849 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 03:46:28 | u=54

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Tiger

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14606.msg359711#msg359711 date=1291246176]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=14606.msg359665#msg359665 date=1291241075]
On the "Norm line"....

I actually hear it as "zìsìto amrr ftolia ohe" - but did not know why the -o was there and wasn't 100% confident I wasn't just hearing a poorly pronounced /a/, so I've always left the transcription as "zìsìt amrr".  Now we know better though.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Yup, here’s the confirmation:
[quote=Frommer, 2 Dec ’10, 0:20]It was supposed to be zìsìto amrr--that's the way I submitted the line and taught it to the actor.
[…]
In any event, the transcript should say zìsìto amrr.
[/quote]
[/quote]Txantsan!  I had always suspected there was something there, but was wary to derive a rule from a single sample that might not even have been heard right.



msg=359862 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 04:47:07 | u=6582

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=14606.msg359638#msg359638 date=1291238517]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14606.msg359625#msg359625 date=1291237499]
[quote=Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56]
[font=Georgia][...]
Maria kxamlä na'rìng kä a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
[...]

[/quote]
[/quote]

Non-adjacent subordinator? Wow.

[/quote]

Biiig shock :o

I hope Frommer didn't mess up...




msg=359928 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 08:15:01 | u=5657

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Ikran Ahiyìk

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14606.msg359862#msg359862 date=1291265227]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=14606.msg359638#msg359638 date=1291238517]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14606.msg359625#msg359625 date=1291237499]
[quote=Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56]
[font=Georgia][...]
Maria kxamlä na'rìng kä a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
[...]

[/quote]
[/quote]

Non-adjacent subordinator? Wow.

[/quote]

Biiig shock :o

I hope Frommer didn't mess up...


[/quote]So confusing for this :P



msg=360036 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 14:14:11 | u=1003

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Skipper587

Guess who just stopped saying Jesus? :D



msg=360084 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 16:05:53 | u=430

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=14606.msg359665#msg359665 date=1291241075]
On the "Norm line"....

I actually hear it as "zìsìto amrr ftolia ohe" - but did not know why the -o was there and wasn't 100% confident I wasn't just hearing a poorly pronounced /a/, so I've always left the transcription as "zìsìt amrr".  Now we know better though.
[/quote]

Yeah, I too was hearing a -o and thought it was just an actor mistake. Good to know my ears aren't crazy.

*googles "Non-adjacent subordinator?"*

Ummm, no idea what this means. Tsun oeru livu san non-linguistics explanation sìk srak?

[quote author=Sä'nek]Guess who just stopped saying Jesus?[/quote]

Hah, I should do that, too. Skxawng will be happy, another word he can use in place of English swear words.



msg=360135 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 17:10:12 | u=631

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Plumps83

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=14606.msg360084#msg360084 date=1291305953]
*googles "Non-adjacent subordinator?"*

Ummm, no idea what this means. Tsun oeru livu san non-linguistics explanation sìk srak?[/quote]

[font=Georgia]The way I understood it is that normally we’d say
Maria kä kxamlä na’rìng a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
meaning, the subordinator/relative pronoun (a) comes directly [desc=or before, depending which word order you choose]after[/desc] the noun (na’rìng). Here we have an instance where there’s a word between the noun and the relative clause … which is totally normal in German – and English as well, AFAIK.
Linguists, please, correct me :D




msg=360139 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-02 17:14:17 | u=430

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14606.msg360135#msg360135 date=1291309812]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=14606.msg360084#msg360084 date=1291305953]
*googles "Non-adjacent subordinator?"*

Ummm, no idea what this means. Tsun oeru livu san non-linguistics explanation sìk srak?[/quote]

[font=Georgia]The way I understood it is that normally we’d say
Maria kä kxamlä na’rìng a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
meaning, the subordinator/relative pronoun (a) comes directly [desc=or before, depending which word order you choose]after[/desc] the noun (na’rìng). Here we have an instance where there’s a word between the noun and the relative clause … which is totally normal in German – and English as well, AFAIK.
Linguists, please, correct me :D

[/quote]

Oh, I thought we'd seen this in other places before? I could have sworn there was something recently from Paul about this? Or was that about genitive pronouns being located next to the possessed noun? Can't remember.



msg=360561 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-03 09:24:36 | u=0

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Tsamsiyu92

Krro atxan oe poley fì'uri!

For much time I have waited.

I see a problem here, doesn't krro also mean "sometimes"?



msg=360609 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-03 13:24:17 | u=21

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

wm.annis

[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=14606.msg360561#msg360561 date=1291368276]
Krro atxan oe poley fì'uri!

For much time I have waited.

I see a problem here, doesn't krro also mean "sometimes"?
[/quote]

Krro krro means from time to time, occasionally.  Even if we use krro to mean "sometimes," because it's used with a count word in this situation (txan) it's not going to be confused for anything else.



msg=360898 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 00:07:29 | u=6582

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=14606.msg360561#msg360561 date=1291368276]
I see a problem here, doesn't krro also mean "sometimes"?
[/quote]

Kehe.  More like "some time".

But then that brings up the question of what "hrro" would then translate as, especially compared to "krro krro"...




msg=361124 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 09:24:09 | u=195

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

esoanem

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=14606.msg360898#msg360898 date=1291421249]
[quote author=Tsamsiyu92 link=topic=14606.msg360561#msg360561 date=1291368276]
I see a problem here, doesn't krro also mean "sometimes"?
[/quote]

Kehe.  More like "some time".

But then that brings up the question of what "hrro" would then translate as, especially compared to "krro krro"...


[/quote]

po tamul hrro: he ran for periods of time. The meaning of this is obscure[desc=that's why the higher, the fewer /Spike Milligan reference],[/desc]  but I'd probably interpret as implying several events which lasted for differing amounts of time. That said, I can only really see it being used with a relative clause on krr.



msg=361165 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 13:09:54 | u=54

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Tiger

That's assuming time (krr) is even countable, which I don't think it is...  Not all nouns are countable.  We can have the plural of time in English (times), but what we usually mean when we say that would better be translated to Na'vi as alo, not krr.



msg=361327 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 18:29:14 | u=965

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Ataeghane

Countableness is not fixed. It's obviously diffrent in diffrent languages, and I think it's quite often a little idiomatic. For instance, in Polish 'time' is 'czas' and it's meaning is similar to English one. But plural ('czasy') means rather 'nowadays', than 'times'. (For 'alo' we use the word 'raz')



msg=361522 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-04 23:00:56 | u=195

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

esoanem

[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=14606.msg361165#msg361165 date=1291468194]
That's assuming time (krr) is even countable, which I don't think it is...  Not all nouns are countable.  We can have the plural of time in English (times), but what we usually mean when we say that would better be translated to Na'vi as alo, not krr.
[/quote]

Indeed the question does. In many ways I hope that is uncountable, we don't seem to have many/enough of them yet.



msg=362053 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-05 19:51:57 | u=21

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

wm.annis

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/October-December]Enwikified[/url].



msg=372740 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-21 00:42:24 | u=631

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Addition:

The great opportunity to provide the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/christmas-song-ninavi-on-youtube/]Christmas songs[/url] for download (thanks again, ma Markì) from which all this comes and a short exchange with William reminded me that I asked Frommer about the usage of fmal, since it’s a bit difficult to translate if you don’t know the exact meaning. His reply:


[quote=Frommer, Dec 1]By the way, the place I had used fmal was in a line of dialog for one of the video games:

Luke pay, ke tsun ayoe tìreyti fmival.
‘Without water we cannot sustain life.’
[/quote]
[font=Georgia]I trust William’s observation that this would also be the first Frommarian example of luke, I’m not sure about fmal, though.



msg=377390 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 02:40:08 | u=73

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14606.msg359642#msg359642 date=1291238901]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=14606.msg359638#msg359638 date=1291238517]Non-adjacent subordinator? Wow.[/quote]

Yeah, that gave my brain a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar#Style]Pindaric[/url] lurch.
[/quote]

I didn't lurch at all at this. I don't see what I'm missing. Why is it non-adjacent??

I haz confuze...  ???

I read through the whole thread and I can't figure out the lurch.




msg=377392 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 02:45:50 | u=21

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14606.msg377390#msg377390 date=1293417608]I haz confuze...  ???

I read through the whole thread and I can't figure out the lurch.[/quote]

  Maria kxamlä na'rìnga zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
  Mary goes through the forest which for seven years has had no leaf.

The noun is separated from it's attributive phrase by the verb.  In other circumstances (say, an adverb and attributive adjective), such an intrusion is forbidden.



msg=377399 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 02:54:45 | u=73

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14606.msg377392#msg377392 date=1293417950]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14606.msg377390#msg377390 date=1293417608]I haz confuze...  ???

I read through the whole thread and I can't figure out the lurch.[/quote]

  Maria kxamlä na'rìnga zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
  Mary goes through the forest which for seven years has had no leaf.

The noun is separated from it's attributive phrase by the verb.  In other circumstances (say, an adverb and attributive adjective), such an intrusion is forbidden.
[/quote]

Oh. Now I get it. I was translating it differently (or actually NOT translating it at all) in my head.

But in my way, technically, I think tsar would have to be sar (the 7 years). It's funky one way or the other.

Thanks for the clarification.  ;D




msg=377404 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 02:59:24 | u=73

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Prrton

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14606.msg377399#msg377399 date=1293418485]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14606.msg377392#msg377392 date=1293417950]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14606.msg377390#msg377390 date=1293417608]I haz confuze...  ???

I read through the whole thread and I can't figure out the lurch.[/quote]

  Maria kxamlä na'rìnga zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
  Mary goes through the forest which for seven years has had no leaf.

The noun is separated from it's attributive phrase by the verb.  In other circumstances (say, an adverb and attributive adjective), such an intrusion is forbidden.
[/quote]

Oh. Now I get it. I was translating it differently (or actually NOT translating it at all) in my head.

But in my way, technically, I think tsar would have to be sar (the 7 years). It's funky one way or the other.

Thanks for the clarification.  ;D


[/quote]

Or?... does the «zìsìto akinä» function as one period and therefore «tsar»?...




msg=377405 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 03:00:26 | u=21

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14606.msg377404#msg377404 date=1293418764]Or?... does the «zìsìto akinä» function as one period and therefore «tsar»?...[/quote]

I take na'rìng as the antecedent of tsar here.



msg=377406 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 03:03:47 | u=73

Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14606.msg377405#msg377405 date=1293418826]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=14606.msg377404#msg377404 date=1293418764]Or?... does the «zìsìto akinä» function as one period and therefore «tsar»?...[/quote]

I take na'rìng as the antecedent of tsar here.
[/quote]

Yes, that makes total sense, but then there’s the non-adjacent *lurch*.

Anyway, I get the original conundrum.

It is odd.

Ahh, poetry!!  ;)




msg=381634 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2010-12-31 21:07:26 | u=1746

Re: for (duration), Jesus loan-word & «fmal»

Carborundum

I was looking through Pandorapedia tonight, awaiting the new year. A line from the Hunt Song caught my attention:

Awpot set ftxey ayngal a l(u) ayngakip
Choose one among you

So apparently "Maria goes through the forest..." was not our first example of non-adjacent subordination.



msg=569397 | topic=14606 | board=99 | time=2013-01-05 19:33:56 | u=11067

Re: for (duration), Jesus loan-word & «fmal»

NaVi_Quebec

Kameyul a Kepekftu ngati kameie

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14606.msg359625#msg359625 date=1291237499]
[font=Georgia]Fairly simple but it [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/as-x-as-y-keep-on-keepin-on/msg359499/#msg359499]came up[/url] in the other news thread that wm.annis posted earlier today and I had received the answer to how we can express duration (for a while, for an hour, for five years etc.) just this morning.

Karyu Pawl kindly took a look over a translation project in which the line »Maria goes through the forest that had no leafs for seven years« appears.

[quote=Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56][font=Georgia]First of all, the way you express duration is to add -o to the time word:

zìsìto amrr = 'for five years'

ayzìsìto = 'for years'

[…] The structure you want is equivalent to the following (which is of course bad English just as it's bad German, but perfectly correct in many languages):

the forest that there was no leaf to it (i.e., that had no leaf)

So the line would be:

Maria kxamlä na'rìng kä a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk

(tsar = to it)
[/quote]
[/quote]

Seysonìltsan! I'll know know how to express a duration. Oe 'ayefu nitram oeyä tìreyo.

Kìyevame ulte Eywa ngahu



msg=369413 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-16 23:35:05 | u=21

Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

wm.annis

I cannot believe I forgot this.  It was a fairly important question at the time.  So important that it was listed in a completely different part of my notebook.  It missed my main list for these posts at the time.  I was thinking about the issue recently, and realized it wasn't in my reference grammar.  Which led to the realization this got skipped.  (People who want to hear the discussion should go to 50:45 on Ultxa6.mp3).

Transitivity with Verbs of Speaking
This came out of a discussion thread which I cannot find now.  The issue was, if I say, "she asked me that" what case should "me" go in?  There were partisans of the topical, though many thought the dative was the best bet.  That was the decision: with a verb of speaking, the person addressed goes into the dative:

  Pol oeru polawm tsat She asked me that.

Second decision: when you use a san... sìk clause, verbs of speaking count as intransitive for purposes of grammar.

  Po oeru polawm san nga kä peseng? She asked me "where are you going?"

But if you use a noun direct object, the verb is treated as transitive, as in the example above with tsat, or:

  Srake nìngay ngal poltxe fì'ut? You really said this?

I have updated the meeting wiki notes, too.



msg=369431 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-16 23:44:09 | u=73

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14953.msg369413#msg369413 date=1292542505]
I cannot believe I forgot this.  It was a fairly important question at the time.  So important that it was listed in a completely different part of my notebook.  It missed my main list for these posts at the time.  I was thinking about the issue recently, and realized it wasn't in my reference grammar.  Which led to the realization this got skipped.  (People who want to hear the discussion should go to 50:45 on Ultxa6.mp3).

Transitivity with Verbs of Speaking
This came out of a discussion thread which I cannot find now.  The issue was, if I say, "she asked me that" what case should "me" go in?  There were partisans of the topical, though many thought the dative was the best bet.  That was the decision: with a verb of speaking, the person addressed goes into the dative:

  Pol oeru polawm tsat She asked me that.

Second decision: when you use a san... sìk clause, verbs of speaking count as intransitive for purposes of grammar.

  Po oeru polawm san nga kä peseng? She asked me "where are you going?"

But if you use a noun direct object, the verb is treated as transitive, as in the example above with tsat, or:

  Srake nìngay ngal poltxe fì'ut? You really said this?

I have updated the meeting wiki notes, too.
[/quote]

I knew the 2nd thing, but not the first.

Seiyi irayo




msg=369442 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-16 23:51:02 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Taras

Wou, irayo. So we have pawm and plltxe are transitive :) I thought those are intransitive... :-\\



msg=369720 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-17 12:45:21 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Indeed, very improtant … and nobody noticed ::) our attention span is decreasing :P
Thanks for a belated up-to-date ;)

Ma Kem, pawm would even count as ditransitive, as far as I know. ;) But it’s logical, isn’t it? At least for pawm, it was clear, but plltxe was a bit unclear.



msg=369745 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-17 13:33:29 | u=1975

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14953.msg369720#msg369720 date=1292589921]
[font=Georgia]Indeed, very improtant … and nobody noticed ::) our attention span is decreasing :P
Thanks for a belated up-to-date ;)

Ma Kem, pawm would even count as ditransitive, as far as I know. ;) But it’s logical, isn’t it? At least for pawm, it was clear, but plltxe was a bit unclear.

[/quote]

but even so, its my understanding that indirect speech is WRONG in Na'vi and therefore instead of using the transitivity, use san sìk sandwich.

we have this example of plltxe being trans:

[quote=Frommer]
Poltxe Neytiril aylì'ut a frakrr 'ok seyä layu oer.
[/quote]

he wasnt quoting her speech, just reporting that she said something. its fine to do this as long as you dont start to use the transitivity as an excuse for indirect speech quotation constructions such as

Poltxe Neytiril futa Tsyeyk lu skxawng.

it should be

Poltxe Neytiri san Tsyeyk lu skxawng (sìk)

OH and the same thing i believe stands for pawm and peng.

no saying this:
She asked if he is ready. (indirect speech again)

or this:
I told you that he would do that. (again.)

the structure should be more like:
She asked, "is he ready?"
I told you, "he would do that"

[desc=about something i see all the time and it bugs me but im thinkin now that just about every one in this thread knows this stuff :P]/unnecessaryrant[/desc]



msg=369760 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-17 14:13:52 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]We do but it’s not redundant to repeat it … here’s one way of learning a language and its rules: repetition, repetition, repetition ;D Eventually, something will sink in :P



msg=377731 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 14:03:46 | u=132

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Taronyu

So, would this be a case of ambitransitivity? or ditransitivity? Should we mark that in the lexicon, annis?



msg=377917 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 18:11:24 | u=1975

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=14953.msg377731#msg377731 date=1293458626]
So, would this be a case of ambitransitivity? or ditransitivity? Should we mark that in the lexicon, annis?
[/quote]

Taronyu, I have noticed verbs in the dictionary marked as just

v.

instead of vi. or vt.

what am I to make of this? some of these seem to be transitive in English.



msg=377960 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 18:45:31 | u=132

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Taronyu

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14953.msg377917#msg377917 date=1293473484]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=14953.msg377731#msg377731 date=1293458626]
So, would this be a case of ambitransitivity? or ditransitivity? Should we mark that in the lexicon, annis?
[/quote]

Taronyu, I have noticed verbs in the dictionary marked as just

v.

instead of vi. or vt.

what am I to make of this? some of these seem to be transitive in English.
[/quote]

Those are ones that I am not sure of. I emailed frommer a while ago asking about them. Maybe I should email again. Just because they're transitive in English doesn't mean that they will be in Na'vi.



msg=377963 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 18:49:32 | u=1975

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=14953.msg377960#msg377960 date=1293475531]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14953.msg377917#msg377917 date=1293473484]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=14953.msg377731#msg377731 date=1293458626]
So, would this be a case of ambitransitivity? or ditransitivity? Should we mark that in the lexicon, annis?
[/quote]

Taronyu, I have noticed verbs in the dictionary marked as just

v.

instead of vi. or vt.

what am I to make of this? some of these seem to be transitive in English.
[/quote]

Those are ones that I am not sure of. I emailed frommer a while ago asking about them. Maybe I should email again. Just because they're transitive in English doesn't mean that they will be in Na'vi.
[/quote]

Precisely.



msg=377964 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 18:50:25 | u=132

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Taronyu

I don't get your point. Do you want me to unmark vtr.s? I have them marked that way because we've seen them that way.



msg=378108 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 21:01:16 | u=631

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I think he means (affirmative) it’s better to be sure about it ;)
Wasn’t Frommer going to give you guys a list of all the verbs with their transitivity marked?



msg=378112 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 21:04:53 | u=1975

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=14953.msg377964#msg377964 date=1293475825]
I don't get your point. Do you want me to unmark vtr.s? I have them marked that way because we've seen them that way.
[/quote]

well no, i was agreeing with you there about the fact that the currently unmarked ones we really cant lean on English to know.

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14953.msg378108#msg378108 date=1293483676]
[font=Georgia]I think he means (affirmative) it’s better to be sure about it ;)
Wasn’t Frommer going to give you guys a list of all the verbs with their transitivity marked?

[/quote]

He's supposed to



msg=378170 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-27 22:04:26 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

wm.annis

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=14953.msg377731#msg377731 date=1293458626]
So, would this be a case of ambitransitivity? or ditransitivity? Should we mark that in the lexicon, annis?
[/quote]

Ok.  Today is the day that I've officially declared my hatred for the term "ambitransitive."  How helpful is that in a language with at least three valencies, maybe four if you're feeling theoretically bold?

In an ideal world, with the ideal Lexicon Management Software, the Grand Unified Dictionary that will resolve all contradictions and make the lion lay down with the lamb, verbs of speaking in Na'vi would have at least two, maybe three, subentries — one for each transitivity, with examples.

Edit: (erm, forgot the point)  It seems best to say that plltxe is both ditransitive and intransitive.  Somehow.



msg=380025 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-29 18:00:14 | u=965

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Ataeghane

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=14953.msg369745#msg369745 date=1292592809]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=14953.msg369720#msg369720 date=1292589921]
[font=Georgia]Indeed, very improtant … and nobody noticed ::) our attention span is decreasing :P
Thanks for a belated up-to-date ;)

Ma Kem, pawm would even count as ditransitive, as far as I know. ;) But it’s logical, isn’t it? At least for pawm, it was clear, but plltxe was a bit unclear.

[/quote]

but even so, its my understanding that indirect speech is WRONG in Na'vi and therefore instead of using the transitivity, use san sìk sandwich.

we have this example of plltxe being trans:

[quote=Frommer]
Poltxe Neytiril aylì'ut a frakrr 'ok seyä layu oer.
[/quote]

he wasnt quoting her speech, just reporting that she said something. its fine to do this as long as you dont start to use the transitivity as an excuse for indirect speech quotation constructions such as

Poltxe Neytiril futa Tsyeyk lu skxawng.

it should be

Poltxe Neytiri san Tsyeyk lu skxawng (sìk)

OH and the same thing i believe stands for pawm and peng.

no saying this:
She asked if he is ready. (indirect speech again)

or this:
I told you that he would do that. (again.)

the structure should be more like:
She asked, "is he ready?"
I told you, "he would do that"

[desc=about something i see all the time and it bugs me but im thinkin now that just about every one in this thread knows this stuff :P]/unnecessaryrant[/desc]
[/quote]That is what I don't get.

If Poltxe Neytiril futa Tsyeyk lu skxawng is wrong, then it's clear that Poltxe Neytiril fì'ut a Tsyeyk lu skxawng is wrong as well, isn't it? But we can always exchange fì'ut for faylì'ut. Is there any diffrence then? Poltxe Neytiril faylì'ut a Tsyeyk lu skxawng. Gramatically the same. We just used another noun. But if that's still wrong, why is Poltxe Neytiril aylì'ut a frakrr 'ok seyä layu oer correct? Now the only diffrence is between these two sub-ordinate clauses.



msg=380043 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-29 18:09:32 | u=1550

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Taras

Poltxe Neytiril futa Tsyeyk lu skxawng grammatically isn't wrong. But that's wrong stylistically :) And there is no difference between futa and fì'ut a. Same with Poltxe Neytiril faylì'ut a Tsyeyk lu skxawng, stylistically it's wrong, because there is indirect speech.

However Poltxe Neytiril aylì'ut a frakrr 'ok seyä layu oer is correct, because frakrr 'ok seyä layu oer is not her speech. It's just attributive clause to aylì'ut:

  Neytiri said the words which I'll always remember.



msg=380200 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-29 21:09:43 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Ataeghane link=topic=14953.msg380025#msg380025 date=1293645614]

If Poltxe Neytiril futa Tsyeyk lu skxawng is wrong, then it's clear that Poltxe Neytiril fì'ut a Tsyeyk lu skxawng is wrong as well, isn't it? But we can always exchange fì'ut for faylì'ut. Is there any diffrence then? Poltxe Neytiril faylì'ut a Tsyeyk lu skxawng. Gramatically the same. We just used another noun. But if that's still wrong, why is Poltxe Neytiril aylì'ut a frakrr 'ok seyä layu oer correct? Now the only diffrence is between these two sub-ordinate clauses.
[/quote]

Additionally, you cannot exchange fì'ut for faylì'ut. fì`ut means 'that thing', and becomes a subordinate clause marker when used with a: fì`ut a or futa ora fì`ut. faylì'ut is a contraction of fay- 'these' (and itself is a contraction of fì- and ay+) and lì`ut 'word', and means 'those words'.

Learning how to properly use the various subordinate clause markers has been one of the (at least for me) more challenging things there is to learn. I am much better now than I was a few months ago, but there is still much to learn.



msg=380212 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-29 21:22:58 | u=1746

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Carborundum

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=14953.msg380200#msg380200 date=1293656983]
[quote author=Ataeghane link=topic=14953.msg380025#msg380025 date=1293645614]

If Poltxe Neytiril futa Tsyeyk lu skxawng is wrong, then it's clear that Poltxe Neytiril fì'ut a Tsyeyk lu skxawng is wrong as well, isn't it? But we can always exchange fì'ut for faylì'ut. Is there any diffrence then? Poltxe Neytiril faylì'ut a Tsyeyk lu skxawng. Gramatically the same. We just used another noun. But if that's still wrong, why is Poltxe Neytiril aylì'ut a frakrr 'ok seyä layu oer correct? Now the only diffrence is between these two sub-ordinate clauses.
[/quote]

Additionally, you cannot exchange fì'ut for faylì'ut. fì`ut means 'that thing', and becomes a subordinate clause marker when used with a: fì`ut a or futa ora fì`ut. faylì'ut is a contraction of fay- 'these' (and itself is a contraction of fì- and ay+) and lì`ut 'word', and means 'those words'.

Learning how to properly use the various subordinate clause markers has been one of the (at least for me) more challenging things there is to learn. I am much better now than I was a few months ago, but there is still much to learn.
[/quote]Fì'ut a is not special in any way, except that it is common enough to be contracted into futa in daily speech. Faylì'ut a is entirely correct, and is simply another, less common subordinate clause marker.



msg=380412 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-30 01:34:39 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=14953.msg380212#msg380212 date=1293657778]

Fì'ut a is not special in any way, except that it is common enough to be contracted into futa in daily speech. Faylì'ut a is entirely correct, and is simply another, less common subordinate clause marker.
[/quote]

Here's proof then, that there is much to learn.

Is a general thing then, that constructions with the following formula {fì-, fay-, tsa-}noun{case marker of some sort, most often patientive} a are subordinate/relative clause markers?



msg=380419 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-30 01:43:26 | u=21

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

wm.annis

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=14953.msg380412#msg380412 date=1293672879]Is a general thing then, that constructions with the following formula {fì-, fay-, tsa-}noun{case marker of some sort, most often patientive} a are subordinate/relative clause markers?[/quote]

I would say not...

[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=14953.msg380212#msg380212 date=1293657778]Fì'ut a is not special in any way, except that it is common enough to be contracted into futa in daily speech. Faylì'ut a is entirely correct, and is simply another, less common subordinate clause marker.[/quote]

Errm.  I don't think that's right.

There's an entire subfield of linguistics on [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammaticalisation]grammaticalization[/url], the process whereby normal words are bleached of their ordinary sense by common use, and become over time nothing more than markers of particular sorts of grammatical markers.  The use of a with fì'u smells highly grammaticalized to me.  Frommer's use is extremely regular with these — futa/a fì'ut always occurs in certain expected constructions.

Now, any clause introduced by (or ending in, depending on how you decided to word things) a is necessarily a subordinate relative clause.  But that's not the same thing as saying fì-N-CASE a is a general pattern for marking subordination.



msg=380451 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-30 03:08:31 | u=4754

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

So then, can I conclude that it is the a that does the 'heavy lifting' in clause marking?

So then, it is grammaticalization that makes futa fula fwa furia, etc. that causes these words to act as clause markers that fill in for single nouns, and not some special characteristic of the construction of those terms?



msg=380708 | topic=14953 | board=99 | time=2010-12-30 16:28:39 | u=1746

Re: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°12: transitivity and verbs of speaking

Carborundum

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=14953.msg380419#msg380419 date=1293673406]
Now, any clause introduced by (or ending in, depending on how you decided to word things) a is necessarily a subordinate relative clause.  But that's not the same thing as saying fì-N-CASE a is a general pattern for marking subordination.
[/quote]
That's not really what I was trying to say, but clearly I expressed myself poorly.

My main point was merely that faylì'ut a is a valid construction; perhaps calling it a "subordinate clause marker" was a mistake.

My understanding is that if we have a subordinate clause attached to a noun (any noun, regardless of demonstratives, plurals, cases or adpositions) with the subordinator a, then that noun acts as an "anchor" or "marker" for said clause. Thus, I drew the conclusion that any noun in such a position is a subordinate clause marker, but perhaps a more formal (i.e. correct) definition exists.

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=14953.msg380451#msg380451 date=1293678511]
So then, can I conclude that it is the a that does the 'heavy lifting' in clause marking?
[/quote]
I feel entirely comfortable with answering "yes" to this question.



msg=381337 | topic=15314 | board=99 | time=2010-12-31 12:18:50 | u=21

even keng

wm.annis

I've always had a minor worry about the word keng.  The only context it occurs in from Frommer is the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Corpus#Why_is_this_night_...]Why is this Night[/url] translation.  Because it occurs in a sentence with ke and because of the phonetic similarity, I was a bit worried it might be another pair like ke... kaw'it.  It isn't.  It can be used in any situation where we want to prop up something unexpected (one of "even"s jobs in English).

This was my example sentence:

Yom teylut keng oel!  Even *I* eat teylu!

Pawl said it was fine.



msg=381339 | topic=15314 | board=99 | time=2010-12-31 12:21:25 | u=6892

Re: even keng

Sireayä mokri

It's great to know it for sure, thanks ma William :)



msg=381340 | topic=15314 | board=99 | time=2010-12-31 12:25:04 | u=132

Re: even keng

Taronyu

Oe fperamìl fìuta t'antsan lueiu.

^That is where we would be without Annis. :D



msg=381341 | topic=15314 | board=99 | time=2010-12-31 12:31:15 | u=985

Re: even keng

Nyx

[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=15314.msg381340#msg381340 date=1293798304]
Oe fperamìl fìuta t'antsan lueiu.

^That is where we would be without Annis. :D
[/quote]
Hrh, irayo seiyi, ma Annis. For this and for the update ^^



msg=381346 | topic=15314 | board=99 | time=2010-12-31 12:46:00 | u=1746

Re: even keng

Carborundum

Very interesting. So should keng always appear directly before the word we want to [desc=I know you don't like this word, but you get the point]emphasise[/desc]?

Would yom keng teylut oel mean I even eat *teylu*?



msg=381354 | topic=15314 | board=99 | time=2010-12-31 12:56:07 | u=21

Re: even keng

wm.annis

[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=15314.msg381346#msg381346 date=1293799560]
Very interesting. So should keng always appear directly before the word we want to [desc=I know you don't like this word, but you get the point]emphasise[/desc]?[/quote]

I don't know.  We have now exactly two sentence, one from Frommer, one he approved.  A little hard to generalize from that. 

[quote]Would yom keng teylut oel mean I even eat *teylu*?[/quote]

I would say that's a reasonable interpretation of that.

Do note that for [desc=:(]emphasis[/desc] I shunted the keng-phrase into the "punch position" at the end.  I'd sort of prefer oel yom keng teylut.  If you pull the stars off *teylu* then I have less strong feelings about where it should go in the clause.



msg=381358 | topic=15314 | board=99 | time=2010-12-31 13:01:23 | u=1746

Re: even keng

Carborundum

Ah yes, the "punch position". I forgot about that. :P



msg=381426 | topic=15314 | board=99 | time=2010-12-31 15:37:56 | u=1746

Re: even keng

Carborundum

In the wiki dictionary, "didn't even try" is given as an example usage of keng. What is this example based on?



msg=383124 | topic=15314 | board=99 | time=2011-01-02 23:23:27 | u=3552

Re: even keng

tigermind

Awesome!  I'd been wondering about this.  Irayo nìtxan, ma William  :)



msg=403279 | topic=16220 | board=99 | time=2011-01-31 23:01:55 | u=21

MOVED: Na'vi Puzzle!

wm.annis

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=3]Beginners[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=16219.0[/iurl]



msg=404070 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-02 19:17:39 | u=21

Stop!

wm.annis

I asked Frommer what I had thought would be confirmation of a simple matter — can we use ftang stop with modal syntax, as we do with sngä'i.  This was the answer:

[quote="K. Pawl"]
Well, that's an interesting question. I checked the dialog for the film and the video games, and in fact I didn't have any "stop V-ing" constructions. What I did have were examples of "stop N" (presumably, stopping the N's from V-ing, although that wasn't expressed). For "stop N," I had used a si- construction:

  ulte kawtu ke tsun ayoer tìftang sivi 'and no one can stop us'

  Txo ke tsiyevun oe tìftang sivi for . . .  'If I should not succeed in stopping them . . . '

So what to do for "stop V-ing"? Well, since sngä'i takes modal syntax for "begin to V" which is the same as "begin V-ing," I don't see why it shouldn't be the same for ftang. So yes, your surmise is correct.

...

The one thing you can't do with ftang is to use it transitively: So you can't say *Oel pot ftolang, but only Oe poru tìftang soli. Again, I think that's OK.
[/quote]

The question of how you would say, "I stop X from Ying" is not yet determined.



msg=404082 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-02 19:37:47 | u=1550

Re: Stop!

Taras

Interesting.. but what about -eyk-? Oel pot fteykolang, I think it would work: I cause him to stop.



msg=404085 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-02 19:39:56 | u=631

Re: Stop!

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]A new si construction … at least for me. The quoted lines are completly new to me.

Thanks for the information. :)




msg=404086 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-02 19:41:42 | u=21

Re: Stop!

wm.annis

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=16266.msg404082#msg404082 date=1296675467]
Interesting.. but what about -eyk-? Oel pot fteykolang, I think it would work: I cause him to stop.
[/quote]

Something about that just doesn't smell quite right semantically.  It might be the correct way to handle it, but the existence of tìftang si complicates things.



msg=404109 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-02 20:18:31 | u=6023

Re: Stop!

Txona Rolyu

Could we possibly have 2 correct ways of saying "I cause him to stop?"
Oel pot fteykang
and
Oe poru tìftang seyki

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=404119 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-02 20:44:01 | u=4754

Re: Stop!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

This is rather interesting, as there are a lot of places where a transitive ftang would be the best choice. Maybe this is one of those places where Na`vi needs to different from other languages to make it, well, Na`vi.

So based on what K. Pawl wrote, would this be correct?

Nga ftang tivul set



msg=404368 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-03 11:21:30 | u=6892

Re: Stop!

Sireayä mokri

[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=16266.msg404109#msg404109 date=1296677911]
Could we possibly have 2 correct ways of saying "I cause him to stop?"
Oel pot fteykang
and
Oe poru tìftang seyki
[/quote]

I hope so. It's always good to have different ways to express the same idea. Otherwise the language becomes "too standard".

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=16266.msg404119#msg404119 date=1296679441]
So based on what K. Pawl wrote, would this be correct?

Nga ftang tivul set
[/quote]

It would.



msg=404406 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-03 14:52:51 | u=3552

Re: Stop!

tigermind

Interesting!  Not something i would have expected, but interesting.



msg=404614 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-03 20:44:05 | u=4754

Re: Stop!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

A common little bit of grammar often helps in tying words together and making them esier to memorize. I now know for instance, that sngä`i and ftang mean 'start' and 'stop', and can both be used m<iv>odally.  :D



msg=405182 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-05 00:54:44 | u=6582

Re: Stop!

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=16266.msg404406#msg404406 date=1296744771]
Interesting!  Not something i would have expected, but interesting.
[/quote]

^^ Fì'u.  I was initially wondering what two different intransitive verbs for ftang would be needed for... until it hit me that ftang is modal while tìftang si isn't.




msg=405200 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-05 01:44:38 | u=985

Re: Stop!

Nyx

Interesting. I like this :D



msg=405387 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-05 14:24:33 | u=3552

Re: Stop!

tigermind

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=16266.msg405182#msg405182 date=1296867284]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=16266.msg404406#msg404406 date=1296744771]
Interesting!  Not something i would have expected, but interesting.
[/quote]

^^ Fì'u.  I was initially wondering what two different intransitive verbs for ftang would be needed for... until it hit me that ftang is modal while tìftang si isn't.[/quote]

Now if we can just find out what tìhawnu si and sänume si are all about.



msg=405708 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-06 08:52:25 | u=631

Re: Stop!

Plumps83

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=16266.msg405387#msg405387 date=1296915873]
Now if we can just find out what tìhawnu si and sänume si are all about.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]As far as I remember the recordings from the workshop and [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/sieyng-a-ftu-naring-2-the-rest-of-the-top-7/]this[/url], at least tìhawnu si and hawnu are synonyms



msg=406308 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-07 05:02:39 | u=6582

Re: Stop!

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=16266.msg405708#msg405708 date=1296982345]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=16266.msg405387#msg405387 date=1296915873]
Now if we can just find out what tìhawnu si and sänume si are all about.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]As far as I remember the recordings from the workshop and [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/sieyng-a-ftu-naring-2-the-rest-of-the-top-7/]this[/url], at least tìhawnu si and hawnu are synonyms
[/quote]
Differences in transitivity is what they're about.




msg=406401 | topic=16266 | board=99 | time=2011-02-07 12:23:33 | u=3552

Re: Stop!

tigermind

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=16266.msg406308#msg406308 date=1297054959]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=16266.msg405708#msg405708 date=1296982345]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=16266.msg405387#msg405387 date=1296915873]
Now if we can just find out what tìhawnu si and sänume si are all about.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]As far as I remember the recordings from the workshop and [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/sieyng-a-ftu-naring-2-the-rest-of-the-top-7/]this[/url], at least tìhawnu si and hawnu are synonyms
[/quote]
Differences in transitivity is what they're about.[/quote]

Thank you  :P

I got that part; but now that we see the difference in usage between ftang and tìftang si—which goes beyond just the transitivity difference between the two—it makes me wonder if there are similar usage differences with these.



msg=409857 | topic=16513 | board=99 | time=2011-02-13 23:29:01 | u=631

Update on counting

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Ma frapo,

I got in contact with K. Pawl the other day to ask about how to count when we would say something like “hunter (number) 3”, “I search room 5” or “welcome to program 2” etc. Irish uses a slightly different set of numbers for this altogether, so I was curious how Na’vi treated these.
The answer seems simple but I think worth mentioning:


[quote author=Paul Frommer, Feb 7, 2011]OK . . . about counting things in Na’vi:

Actually, it’s easy. There isn’t anything exactly equivalent to “hunter number 3”—instead, you just use the ordinal (as opposed to the cardinal) numbers. (Cardinals: one, two, three, . . . ; ordinals: first, second, third, . . . ) So:

hunter number 3 = taronyu apxeyve (or, of course, pxeyvea taronyu)

(If you see any problem with that system, let me know. But I think it’s OK.)
[/quote]



msg=409870 | topic=16513 | board=99 | time=2011-02-13 23:53:47 | u=1550

Re: Update on counting

Taras

Irayo :) It's really easy ;)



msg=409872 | topic=16513 | board=99 | time=2011-02-13 23:56:02 | u=5139

Re: Update on counting

Hrrap

Indeed it is. Would have been more interesting with some other way though ::)  :-X
Oh well well :D



msg=409883 | topic=16513 | board=99 | time=2011-02-14 00:11:53 | u=6023

Re: Update on counting

Txona Rolyu

Cool I've been doing it right! Lol

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=409885 | topic=16513 | board=99 | time=2011-02-14 00:13:22 | u=985

Re: Update on counting

Nyx

Good to know :) irayo



msg=410129 | topic=16513 | board=99 | time=2011-02-14 15:18:26 | u=5657

Re: Update on counting

Ikran Ahiyìk

OK I didn't get it wrong :)



msg=410193 | topic=16513 | board=99 | time=2011-02-14 16:40:05 | u=3552

Re: Update on counting

tigermind

This is especially important for any haryu out there, since this means "Lesson Number Four" in Na'vi would be Sänumvi aTsìve, for example.



msg=410487 | topic=16513 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 04:41:30 | u=6582

Re: Update on counting

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Ikran Ahiyìk link=topic=16513.msg410129#msg410129 date=1297696706]
OK I didn't get it wrong :)
[/quote]

Sran really intuitive for me too, right from the beginning :D




msg=410655 | topic=16513 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 15:40:42 | u=7206

Re: Update on counting

Kamean

Irayo nìtxan. :)



msg=410390 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 00:06:01 | u=3552

Definitive answers on proper nouns

tigermind

Kaltxì frapoya,

So, largely for my own edification, i asked Karyu Pawl about how we deal with compound and otherwise "complicated" proper nouns.  Specifically, i asked him (as examples) where the case markers go on "Karyu Pawl" and "ayRam aLusìng."  I was surprised by one of the answers, and in any case i wanted to share.

[quote author=Karyu Pawl]
1.       On the “Karyu Pawl” + dative question: I have to admit I vacillated on this. The “hidden alu” explanation is appealing! But in the end I felt we should go with Karyu Pawlur. I agree that Karyu is acting as a kind of modifier here. So even though we would say tsataronyur alu Kamun, with titles like Karyu we should go with the case marking on the proper noun. So I’m with you on that one.


2.       As for the ayRam aLusìng question, I favor ayRam aLusìngit as the objective. The reason, as some people have suspected, is that ayRam aLusìng, although it originated as a N + Adj, is now a really a proper noun—a “giant noun,” as you mentioned.

I was trying to come up with a parallel in English and couldn’t find a really apt one. The closest I’ve come is Attorney General. What’s the plural? The purists want us to say Attorneys General, but most people think of it as a compound—or giant—noun, so the plural feels more natural as Attorney Generals. (Of course that’s not truly parallel with the Na’vi case, since N + Adj is extremely rare in English.) Another possibly related example in English comes with titles of books and movies: “The Thorn Birds is an interesting film.” There we’re taking something that looks plural and treating it as a giant, singular noun. So we say is rather than are. Again, not quite the same as the Na’vi situation.
[/quote]

So, there you have it.  In cases where one noun is being used as a sort of "title," the case marker goes on the proper name (so, "I saw Brother Kamun" would be Oel tsole'a Tsmukan Kamunit—but "I saw your brother Kamun" would be Oel tsole'a ngeyä tsmukanit alu Kamun).  But with proper nouns in which part of the name is an adjective, the case markers go at the very end of the compound—even if that means sticking it on what's technically an adjective.

So now you know  ;)



msg=410422 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 00:41:25 | u=985

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

Nyx

Thanks for settling this :)

Just to make sure I got it right, part two is only about proper nouns, kefyak? So if I'm talking about any floating mountains, and not specifically the Legendary Floating Mountains, should I then put the case marker on ayram to make it "ayramit alusìng"? I mean, in that case I'm just describing mountains that happen to be floating (say, if they existed on some other planet).



msg=410454 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 01:21:20 | u=3552

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

tigermind

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=16543.msg410422#msg410422 date=1297730485]
Thanks for settling this :)

Just to make sure I got it right, part two is only about proper nouns, kefyak? So if I'm talking about any floating mountains, and not specifically the Legendary Floating Mountains, should I then put the case marker on ayram to make it "ayramit alusìng"? I mean, in that case I'm just describing mountains that happen to be floating (say, if they existed on some other planet).
[/quote]

That's actually a remaining ambiguity, as is the issue of compound nouns that aren't proper nouns, like eltu lefngap.  I'll ask Frommer for clarification.



msg=410463 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 01:58:24 | u=1550

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

Taras

Wou! Thanks. It's a very important update :)



msg=410486 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 04:40:38 | u=6582

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

lapo lesxkxawng

This would now mean that Tirea[desc=-t(i), -r(u), -ri]l[/desc] Aean is incorrect as a proper name, and it would have to be Tirea Aean[desc=-it, -ur, -ìri]ìl[/desc]

I have been saying it like that.  It's been more intuitive to do it that way :D




msg=410488 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 04:44:07 | u=1550

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

Taras

I always used tsmukanìl alu Tìrea Aean :)



msg=410492 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 04:51:14 | u=6582

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=16543.msg410488#msg410488 date=1297745047]
I always used tsmukanìl alu Tirea Aean :)
[/quote]

That works, too (minus the small typo of ì ;))




msg=410528 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 08:11:43 | u=6023

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=16543.msg410454#msg410454 date=1297732880]
[quote author=Nyx link=topic=16543.msg410422#msg410422 date=1297730485]
Thanks for settling this :)

Just to make sure I got it right, part two is only about proper nouns, kefyak? So if I'm talking about any floating mountains, and not specifically the Legendary Floating Mountains, should I then put the case marker on ayram to make it "ayramit alusìng"? I mean, in that case I'm just describing mountains that happen to be floating (say, if they existed on some other planet).
[/quote]

That's actually a remaining ambiguity, as is the issue of compound nouns that aren't proper nouns, like eltu lefngap.  I'll ask Frommer for clarification.
[/quote]

For this I have always put case endings on the actual noun part which here is "eltu" i.e. "zene sivar eltuti lefngap." It just seems weird to me putting a case ending on an adjective....even though in something like "eltu lefngap" the whole thing is the noun. I guess I always see it as noun + adj. Even though K. Pawl himself confirmed that proper nouns like "Ayram aLusìng" get the case ending at the end of the compound it still seems weird to me putting it on an adj. That's gonna take some getting used to lol. 

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=16543.msg410486#msg410486 date=1297744838]
This would now mean that Tirea[desc=-t(i), -r(u), -ri]l[/desc] Aean is incorrect as a proper name, and it would have to be Tirea Aean[desc=-it, -ur, -ìri]ìl[/desc]

I have been saying it like that.  It's been more intuitive to do it that way :D
[/quote]

I've been doing it this way too.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=410604 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 13:42:54 | u=6892

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

Sireayä mokri

Irayo, that's very useful. But I got a question: Utral ayMokriyä is a proper noun which already has a case ending. So, how would it look like with genitive case applied? Utral ayMokriyä?



msg=410721 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 17:58:18 | u=3552

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

tigermind

Tam, i spoke with Karyu Pawl last night and asked for some clarification.

Case endings go at the end of the compound word when it's a proper noun.  But for regular compounds (like "eltu lefngap") the case endings STILL go on the noun—i.e.,

[quote author=Sireayä mokri link=topic=16543.msg410604#msg410604 date=1297777374]
Irayo, that's very useful. But I got a question: Utral ayMokriyä is a proper noun which already has a case ending. So, how would it look like with genitive case applied? Utral ayMokriyä?
[/quote]

That would be my guess.  It does look a little funny, doesn't it?  We know that soaia has the irregular genitive soaiä, so it's not totally out of the question that there might be something particular that goes on here.  I'll ask Karyu Pawl how he feels about "stacked" case markers like this.

Turkish has a particular way of dealing with endings on proper nouns, but it only makes a difference in writing, not pronunciation. 



msg=410767 | topic=16543 | board=99 | time=2011-02-15 19:22:46 | u=985

Re: Definitive answers on proper nouns

Nyx

It does look a little strange with "Utral ayMokriyäyä", but hey, it is an alien language after all :P



msg=416259 | topic=16742 | board=99 | time=2011-02-25 05:13:58 | u=3552

Compound nouns—final decision!

tigermind

Kaltxì ma smuktu,

So, after mulling it over a bit, Karyu Pawl says (with his apologies) that he's decided that ALL compound nouns will take case markers on the head noun.  After too many questions came up, like whether to stick a second case marker on the end of Utral ayMokriyä, or whether lì'fya leNa'vi "counts" as a proper, compound noun, he decided the best route was to simplify things.  So:

Ayvitrayä Ramunongit

Utralit ayMokriyä

lì'fyati leNa'vi

ayRamit aLusìng

eltuti lefngap


etc.

The case marker still goes on the name when a compound is a title-plus-name (e.g., Karyu Pawlit); and when a proper noun is only one word—well, that ought to be obvious (e.g., Kelutralit).

Apologies again for the confusion while that was getting sorted out.



msg=416261 | topic=16742 | board=99 | time=2011-02-25 05:18:35 | u=1550

Re: Compound nouns—final decision!

Taras

Irayo. I'm very happy of it :) I think it makes more sense than previous concept (ayRam aLusìngit). Irayo nìtxan!!! ;)



msg=416270 | topic=16742 | board=99 | time=2011-02-25 05:34:41 | u=73

Re: Compound nouns—final decision!

Prrton

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=16742.msg416261#msg416261 date=1298611115]
Irayo. I'm very happy of it :) I think it makes more sense than previous concept (ayRam aLusìngit). Irayo nìtxan!!! ;)
[/quote]

Molteie!



msg=416291 | topic=16742 | board=99 | time=2011-02-25 06:24:35 | u=6023

Re: Compound nouns—final decision!

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=16742.msg416270#msg416270 date=1298612081]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=16742.msg416261#msg416261 date=1298611115]
Irayo. I'm very happy of it :) I think it makes more sense than previous concept (ayRam aLusìngit). Irayo nìtxan!!! ;)
[/quote]

Molteie!
[/quote]

Most definitely! I was hoping I wouldn't have to get used to putting case endings on adjectives lol. Fì'pxareri irayo nìtxan :)

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=416328 | topic=16742 | board=99 | time=2011-02-25 10:08:45 | u=5657

Re: Compound nouns—final decision!

Ikran Ahiyìk

Txantsan...

Double case marker would be extremely confusing..



msg=416333 | topic=16742 | board=99 | time=2011-02-25 11:25:48 | u=6892

Re: Compound nouns—final decision!

Sireayä mokri

Yeah, that's clever, I'm glad Pawl decided for simplicity. We don't really need a rule that only causes confusion.



msg=416516 | topic=16742 | board=99 | time=2011-02-25 20:09:03 | u=985

Re: Compound nouns—final decision!

Nyx

Good to know, thanks :)



msg=416882 | topic=16742 | board=99 | time=2011-02-26 10:09:51 | u=4754

Re: Compound nouns—final decision!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Although in many cases, it should be fairly obvious which noun gets the case marker, is there any formal definition of 'head noun'?



msg=416885 | topic=16742 | board=99 | time=2011-02-26 10:20:50 | u=5657

Re: Compound nouns—final decision!

Ikran Ahiyìk

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=16742.msg416882#msg416882 date=1298714991]
Although in many cases, it should be fairly obvious which noun gets the case marker, is there any formal definition of 'head noun'?
[/quote]

The noun everything attributing to :)




Ayvitra Ramunongit

Utralit ayMokri

lì'fyati leNa'vi

ayRamit aLusìng

eltuti lefngap



msg=417106 | topic=16773 | board=99 | time=2011-02-26 21:12:31 | u=3552

clarification on the use of 'awpo

tigermind

Kaltxì frapoya,

So, Frommer corrected a sentence i wrote using the word 'awpo:

[quote author=Karyu Pawl]‘Awpo is indefinite, akin to tuteo ‘someone’ but not necessarily a person. I originally used it in the Hunt Song. “Choose one among you . . .” – that is, one animal among you to feed the people. But it’s not “Choose THE one among you . . ." [/quote]

So, for example, "The best hunter is the one who hunts to feeds others," Frommer recommended using tsatute instead:

Taronyu aswey lu tsatute a taron fte yomtivìng aylaru.



msg=419640 | topic=16856 | board=99 | time=2011-03-03 15:35:11 | u=3552

Some details on word-order

tigermind

Kaltxì ma smuktu,

So, it's possible i'm one of the only people who was surprised by this.  But i went to Karyu Pawl to ask about a sentence from one of the blog posts, and he set me straight.  So, for the edification of anyone else who might have been confused about this like i was:

[quote author=me]On the Jan. Part 2 post, there's this sentence:

Tsat ke tsun oe ronsrelngivop.

I would've expected Ke tsun oe tsat ronsrelngivop.  I thought the object of the second verb has to come after the modal verb...?[/quote]

[quote author=Karyu Pawl]Word order: Remember that Na’vi word order is extremely flexible. More so than in many if not most languages, definitely including English, you can permute the order of constituents without changing the semantics of who is doing what to whom.

Both sentences you’ve mentioned below are fine.

The one that begins with tsat—that is, with the object—is perhaps more “marked” than the version you gave, with more emphasis on the object. But keep in mind that we can do the same thing in English, as in “THAT I can’t imagine!” Or: “Him I like; her I can’t stand.” Those are both object-initial sentences, which in English are stylistic variants of the more expected SVO order . . . but under certain circumstances they’re acceptable. That’s much more the case in Na’vi, where the word order rules permit lots of variation. For example, all 6 possible permutations of “Oel poti tse’a” are grammatical—which is not to say they’re interchangeable in any particular conversation.

So feel free to experiment with different word orders. It’s hard to go wrong in Na’vi.[/quote]

So, apparently Na'viyä free word order is even more "free" than i thought!  ;D



msg=419666 | topic=16856 | board=99 | time=2011-03-03 16:16:46 | u=7206

Re: Some details on word-order

Kamean

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=16856.msg419640#msg419640 date=1299166511]
So, apparently Na'viyä free word order is even more "free" than i thought!  ;D
[/quote]
Like Russian. :D



msg=419670 | topic=16856 | board=99 | time=2011-03-03 16:26:42 | u=1746

Re: Some details on word-order

Carborundum

OK, so a word at the beginning of a sentence is "marked", whereas a word at the end receives the "punch".

It's a good thing this isn't confusing at all.



msg=419707 | topic=16856 | board=99 | time=2011-03-03 18:44:28 | u=3552

Re: Some details on word-order

tigermind

[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=16856.msg419670#msg419670 date=1299169602]
OK, so a word at the beginning of a sentence is "marked", whereas a word at the end receives the "punch".

It's a good thing this isn't confusing at all.
[/quote]

This. ;D



msg=419720 | topic=16856 | board=99 | time=2011-03-03 19:23:29 | u=631

Re: Some details on word-order

Plumps83

[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=16856.msg419707#msg419707 date=1299177868]
[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=16856.msg419670#msg419670 date=1299169602]
OK, so a word at the beginning of a sentence is "marked", whereas a word at the end receives the "punch".

It's a good thing this isn't confusing at all.
[/quote]

This. ;D[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Has anybody ever commented on the fact that this could be a misreading after all? It was for a newspaper contest if I remember correctly and was to mean “You’re going down” with “Your tail is mine” in Na’vi … has it occured to anybody that Dr. Frommer’s comment for “The end of the sentence is where the ‘punch’ comes.” could only apply for this particular sentence? ;D
Just a thought … to make it even more confusing :D



msg=419933 | topic=16856 | board=99 | time=2011-03-04 04:21:24 | u=6582

Re: Some details on word-order

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=16856.msg419670#msg419670 date=1299169602]
OK, so a word at the beginning of a sentence is "marked", whereas a word at the end receives the "punch".

It's a good thing this isn't confusing at all.
[/quote]

Except for some :P




msg=420067 | topic=16856 | board=99 | time=2011-03-04 13:55:17 | u=5657

Re: Some details on word-order

Ikran Ahiyìk

[quote author=Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea link=topic=16856.msg419933#msg419933 date=1299212484]
[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=16856.msg419670#msg419670 date=1299169602]
OK, so a word at the beginning of a sentence is "marked", whereas a word at the end receives the "punch".

It's a good thing this isn't confusing at all.
[/quote]

Except for some :P
[/quote]

I think it's:

The last when you want it,
nothing when you don't.



msg=429552 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 02:39:04 | u=3552

regarding attaching nì- to participles

tigermind

Kaltxì frapoya,

A good number of us have developed the habit of attaching nì- to participles in order to make adverbs, based on the Frommerian word nìawnomum (nì-<awn>omum).  So, for example, you might see a word *nìpawneng being used to mean "as told," or something to that effect.  So, in my most recent conversation with Karyu Pawl, i asked how he felt about this.

Regarding whether nìawnomum is the basis for a productive way of using nì- with participles, the answer was an emphatic NO.  He said, however, that the existence of nìawnomum opens the door to the possibility that there are other words in Na'vi that are constructed the same way (i.e., nì-V<awn>ERB), but these will need to be explicitly listed in the dictionary, and will not be common.

So, that means this construction is not at all productive, but nìawnomum might not be the only one of these we see.



msg=429579 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 05:44:15 | u=6023

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Txona Rolyu

Hm, usually for stuff like "as told" or "as said" I use na and say "na poleng" and "na poltxe" (I use na poltxe a lot more) those wouldn't be incorrect would they?

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=429592 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 07:47:32 | u=6582

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429579#msg429579 date=1301031855]
Hm, usually for stuff like "as told" or "as said" I use na and say "na poleng" and "na poltxe" (I use na poltxe a lot more) those wouldn't be incorrect would they?

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

I have a feeling you're close...

Perhaps something like fwana..., futana... in formal Na'vi anyway....




msg=429604 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 08:55:58 | u=6023

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Inspirata link=topic=17213.msg429592#msg429592 date=1301039252]
[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429579#msg429579 date=1301031855]
Hm, usually for stuff like "as told" or "as said" I use na and say "na poleng" and "na poltxe" (I use na poltxe a lot more) those wouldn't be incorrect would they?

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

I have a feeling you're close...

Perhaps something like fwana..., futana... in formal Na'vi anyway....
[/quote]

Fwana or futana? Peu?  :-\\ Are those even possible?

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=429606 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 09:00:49 | u=6582

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429604#msg429604 date=1301043358]
[quote author=Inspirata link=topic=17213.msg429592#msg429592 date=1301039252]
[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429579#msg429579 date=1301031855]
Hm, usually for stuff like "as told" or "as said" I use na and say "na poleng" and "na poltxe" (I use na poltxe a lot more) those wouldn't be incorrect would they?

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

I have a feeling you're close...

Perhaps something like fwana..., futana... in formal Na'vi anyway....
[/quote]

Fwana or futana? Peu?  :-\\ Are those even possible?

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

fwa-na, futa-na...  ulte srane they should be possible.




msg=429608 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 09:05:42 | u=6023

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Inspirata link=topic=17213.msg429606#msg429606 date=1301043649]
[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429604#msg429604 date=1301043358]
[quote author=Inspirata link=topic=17213.msg429592#msg429592 date=1301039252]
[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429579#msg429579 date=1301031855]
Hm, usually for stuff like "as told" or "as said" I use na and say "na poleng" and "na poltxe" (I use na poltxe a lot more) those wouldn't be incorrect would they?

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

I have a feeling you're close...

Perhaps something like fwana..., futana... in formal Na'vi anyway....
[/quote]

Fwana or futana? Peu?  :-\\ Are those even possible?

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

fwa-na, futa-na...  ulte srane they should be possible.
[/quote]

I knew the constructions, I'm wondering about if adp's can be attached to pronouns.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=429621 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 10:06:54 | u=7738

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

I don't think this is possible. notice what you are saying: fì'u a na, fìut a na. you can't place na after this a unless you want to say "this thing which is like". for this you must say in my opinion "na fwa" and not take risks.
and this figure of speech is only used when the "thing" is a clause by itself. if you want to say just like [desc=which is not a clause]this thing[/desc] it's "fì'una" with no relative pronouns.



msg=429689 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 15:12:06 | u=5657

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Ikran Ahiyìk

So let's conclude...

fwa = fì'u a

fì'una a = *funa
na fì'u a = (?) na fwa
fì'u a na = *fwana
fì'ut a na = *futana

these seem more possible.



edit: I think confusion causes is because of no * marked..



msg=429691 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 15:38:16 | u=7738

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

as I said, there can't be such things as "fwana and "futana" (or "fulana", "furiana", tsawana,tsatana, tsalana, tsariana). there also isn't a construction like "funa". the right forms from yours are: fì'una a/na fì'u a/ na fwa-(something is) like this thing which...
                                                        fì'u/fì'ut/fì'ul/fì'uri a na-this thing which is like (something)...



msg=429707 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 16:18:30 | u=5657

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Ikran Ahiyìk

You know I'm just trying to create some "false" forms, don't you?

[quote author=Inspirata link=topic=17213.msg429592#msg429592 date=1301039252]
[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429579#msg429579 date=1301031855]
Hm, usually for stuff like "as told" or "as said" I use na and say "na poleng" and "na poltxe" (I use na poltxe a lot more) those wouldn't be incorrect would they?

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

I have a feeling you're close...

Perhaps something like fwana..., futana... in formal Na'vi anyway....
[/quote]

[quote author=Ikran Ahiyìk link=topic=17213.msg429689#msg429689 date=1301065926]
So let's conclude...

fwa = fì'u a

fì'una a = funa 1
na fì'u a = na fwa 2
fì'u a na = fwana 3
fì'ut a na = futana 4

these seem more possible.

[/quote]

Back to reality, we know 1, 3, 4 are wrong things, and doubt at 2, not even sure about ADP before this kind

(and these are off-topic stuff, we should stop now)



msg=429713 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-25 16:27:48 | u=7738

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

oh.. sorry.
about the second form, it's right.
and about the na poltxe thing, I don't think it is correct since na goes with nouns.



msg=429974 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-26 07:29:53 | u=6023

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Txona Rolyu

If it's not correct, I'd like to know why. It would make sense to me to say something like "Na poltxe oe srekrr......"

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=429980 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-26 07:57:47 | u=5657

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Ikran Ahiyìk

[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429974#msg429974 date=1301124593]
If it's not correct, I'd like to know why. It would make sense to me to say something like "Na poltxe oe srekrr......"

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]

[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=17213.msg429713#msg429713 date=1301070468]
oh.. sorry.
about the second form, it's right.
and about the na poltxe thing, I don't think it is correct since na goes with nouns.
[/quote]

Infix here, definately is a verb..

Na aylì'u a srekrr poltxe oe would make sense at this time,

and as this topic said we can't make *nìpawnlltxe ourselves (but I think this worth for an LEP submittion..)



msg=429981 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-26 08:25:08 | u=6023

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Ikran Ahiyìk link=topic=17213.msg429980#msg429980 date=1301126267]
and as this topic said we can't make *nìpawnlltxe ourselves (but I think this worth for an LEP submittion..)
[/quote]

Fì'u! I think we should just submit the nì- <awn> construction as a valid construction.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=429982 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-26 09:07:40 | u=7738

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429974#msg429974 date=1301124593]
If it's not correct, I'd like to know why. It would make sense to me to say something like "Na poltxe oe srekrr......"

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]
ma Txonä Rolyu, na is an adposition and therefore goes with nouns only. that is why it's not correct to say "na poltxe".
your new sentence (in the quote above) is also wrong because of that. if you want it to be right you need fwa. "na fwa poltxe oe srekrr....."



msg=430012 | topic=17213 | board=99 | time=2011-03-26 10:39:36 | u=6023

Re: regarding attaching nì- to participles

Txona Rolyu

[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=17213.msg429982#msg429982 date=1301130460]
[quote author=Txonä Te Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì link=topic=17213.msg429974#msg429974 date=1301124593]
If it's not correct, I'd like to know why. It would make sense to me to say something like "Na poltxe oe srekrr......"

-Txonä Rolyu
[/quote]
ma Txonä Rolyu, na is an adposition and therefore goes with nouns only. that is why it's not correct to say "na poltxe".
your new sentence (in the quote above) is also wrong because of that. if you want it to be right you need fwa. "na fwa poltxe oe srekrr....."
[/quote]

*täpakuk* I should have known that by now. Irayo ma Tsamsiyu.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=438025 | topic=17584 | board=99 | time=2011-04-13 21:25:33 | u=54

MOVED: Help Wanted: Na'vi Language Textbook

omängum fra'uti

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=143]Learning Resources[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=17581.0[/iurl]



msg=451957 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-18 07:10:10 | u=631

kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Ma frapo,

a few minor confirmations.
I asked Dr Frommer about his blessing for kawtseng ‘nowhere’ (with the expected double negation) and tsapo ‘that one’ (with the expected case endings). His reply:


[quote=K. Pawl, 13 May]Kawtseng and tsapo are fine. Go ahead and announce them, and I’ll try to include them in some of my example sentences as well.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]and regarding stress:

[quote=K. Pawl, 18 May]It’s KAW.tseng and TSA.po.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Also, [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/do-demonstratives-contract/msg451131/#msg451131]Inspirata’s question[/url] about how prefixes behave that ‘collide’ with the same vowel got me intrigued and I asked about that.

[quote=K. Pawl, 18 May]As for your other question, the general rule is that when two identical vowels come together, they coalesce into one. So in your examples, the words become fìlva, tsatan, and fnekxan respectively. Of course if the noun begins with a glottal stop, this doesn’t happen. For example, ‘this spiral’ is fì’ìheyu.[/quote]


edit: translation added ::)



msg=451962 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-18 07:18:32 | u=6023

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Txona Rolyu

Noted. Txantsan, fí'uri seiyi irayo ma Plumps :)

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=451965 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-18 07:24:19 | u=6582

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

lapo lesxkxawng

Txantsan :D Now all that's left AFAIK to question Frommer on teri phonetics is the intonation of Na'vi...




msg=452038 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-18 12:19:10 | u=631

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I knew you’d like that ;D

[quote author=Inspirata link=topic=18112.msg451965#msg451965 date=1305703459]
Now all that's left AFAIK to question Frommer on teri phonetics is the intonation of Na'vi...[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I’ll let you handle that one ;) :P



msg=452049 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-18 13:01:17 | u=6892

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Sireayä mokri

Irayo ma Plumps, prefixes*ìri nìpxi :)



msg=452073 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-18 14:03:23 | u=21

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

wm.annis

[quote=K. Pawl, 13 May]Kawtseng and tsapo are fine. Go ahead and announce them, and I’ll try to include them in some of my example sentences as well.[/quote]

That will be useful.  The semantics of the whole -po class, especially animacy, is a bit funky.



msg=452199 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-18 19:07:32 | u=7206

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Kamean

Irayo nìtxan ma Plumps. :)



msg=452332 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-19 03:29:10 | u=6582

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=18112.msg452073#msg452073 date=1305727403]
[quote=K. Pawl, 13 May]Kawtseng and tsapo are fine. Go ahead and announce them, and I’ll try to include them in some of my example sentences as well.[/quote]

That will be useful.  The semantics of the whole -po class, especially animacy, is a bit funky.
[/quote]

Mllte, and what's more interesting is that there's no fìtu, kawpo, or fratu....

:-\\




msg=452341 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-19 03:57:48 | u=1550

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Taras

I think these are incorrect forms.



msg=452481 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-19 15:24:32 | u=7206

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Kamean

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=18112.msg452341#msg452341 date=1305777468]
I think these are incorrect forms.
[/quote]
Seems like it.



msg=452704 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-20 04:06:18 | u=6582

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

lapo lesxkxawng

...even kawpo?




msg=452824 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-20 13:12:05 | u=6892

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Sireayä mokri

[quote author=Inspirata link=topic=18112.msg452704#msg452704 date=1305864378]
...even kawpo?
[/quote]

Not one (s)he doesn't make a lot of sense to me...



msg=453400 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-21 19:47:30 | u=7704

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

radek.raszka

To understand well: tsapo replaces tsatu, or we can use both of them from now?



msg=453498 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-22 03:51:49 | u=5657

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Ikran Ahiyìk

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=18112.msg453400#msg453400 date=1306007250]
To understand well: tsapo replaces tsatu, or we can use both of them from now?
[/quote]
Both. No replacement involved.

Tsatu is for person definitely because of the tute inside.
Tsapo can be also for plants, animals .. read more [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/past-submitted-words/proposal-that-one-tsapo/]here[/url].



msg=453504 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-22 04:35:09 | u=6582

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Sireayä mokri link=topic=18112.msg452824#msg452824 date=1305897125]
[quote author=Inspirata link=topic=18112.msg452704#msg452704 date=1305864378]
...even kawpo?
[/quote]

Not one (s)he doesn't make a lot of sense to me...
[/quote]

To me it only seems to make as much sense as [desc=fì-po]this s/he[/desc] or [desc=tsa-po]that s/he[/desc] or [desc=fra-po]every s/he[/desc].... although sooner or later, without that word, I may just see it as a quirk in the language.

Kop, if not fìtu and fratu, then the long forms fìtute and fratute should be used instead, as they are generally considered to sound more correct, kefyak?




msg=454256 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-23 22:51:27 | u=73

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Prrton


Is tsatu canonical? If so, where/when is it from?




msg=454264 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-23 23:17:56 | u=21

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

wm.annis

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=18112.msg454256#msg454256 date=1306191087]Is tsatu canonical? If so, where/when is it from?[/quote]

ASG, glossed as "that person."



msg=454268 | topic=18112 | board=99 | time=2011-05-23 23:30:58 | u=73

Re: kawtseng, tsapo and prefixes

Prrton

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=18112.msg454264#msg454264 date=1306192676]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=18112.msg454256#msg454256 date=1306191087]Is tsatu canonical? If so, where/when is it from?[/quote]

ASG, glossed as "that person."
[/quote]

Thank you.

In that case, verar oer livu am’ao.




msg=472853 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 02:32:01 | u=6582

Phonetics: what I found

lapo lesxkxawng

After talking to Karyu Pawl at the meetup he was able to answer some of my phonetics questions that have been keeping me up at night.

Prosody
If it's one thing the actors got right, it's the prosody.  If you listen it's about 40/60-50/50 ratio of pitch accent/dynamic accent, so fko shouldn't lean too far in either direction[desc=for English speakers, this means: don't go too heavy with a dynamic, volume-based accent!].[/desc]  The sound appears to be quite natural of most languages, too: high tone/volume is stressed, low tone/volume is unstressed, and there appears to really only be 2 levels of stress, unlike English, which can have 3-4 layers.

As far as global prosody (i.e. what happens across whole phrases and sentences) goes, it seems a little undefined, to be honest.  However I did hear that pieces of it were by design le'Ìnglìsì because of Cameron.  What Cameron wanted is for phrases of the language to be recognizable, and that's why the global intonation sounded like it did.  

An older dialect of Na'vi?
Frommer says he's pondering this, and it may or may not happen, but here are a couple of things that I do which I talked over with Paul about:

  • The oe diphthong: [nobbc]instead of shifting to [wɛ] before suffixes, and also in the word [/nobbc]oeyk[nobbc] it is [ŏɛ̆], sometimes even something more like [ɔ̆ɛ̆] (by vowel harmony).  Various Spanish sub-dialects do this too, and I expect it may even vary by speaker whether they have an oe diphthong or not.  However, by assimilation, after u, aw, and ew, the [ŏɛ̆] diphthing shifts to [wɛ].[/nobbc]

  • K → velar H: [nobbc]Instead of shifting to [h] when leniting k, it shifts to [x].  A sound change that may have historically occured is that lenited k, [x], got weakened to [h].  Paul mentioned that this also happens in languages such as Hebrew, where the [x] is still intact.[/nobbc]



It turns out we were kinda thinking on the same page that night, and what Frommer has previously described was modern Na'vi :)

To release or not to release?
Recently, I had observed that the 4 stops of Na'vi (p, t, k, and ') are unreleased in not only in word-final position, but syllable-final position as well.  If clarity is needed, n.k. to distinguish between 'ok and 'o', the stop may be lightly released (however you may want to be careful with releasing the glottal stop so that an extra syllable doesn't get perceived).




msg=472856 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 02:36:49 | u=1975

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Ean Tirea

Fascinating stuff there! :D [me=Tirea Aean]goes to figure out what in the WORLD ŏ,ɛ̆,ɔ̆, and ɛ̆ are...[/me]



msg=472858 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 02:38:37 | u=6582

Re: Phonetics: what I found

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19046.msg472856#msg472856 date=1310351809]
[me=Tirea Aean]goes to figure out what in the WORLD ŏ,ɛ̆,ɔ̆, and ɛ̆ are...[/me]
[/quote]

Ningay srak?  Ke smon ngaru IPA? o_o

They are short diphthongs, as short as a short vowel.




msg=472861 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 02:43:53 | u=1975

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Ean Tirea

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19046.msg472858#msg472858 date=1310351917]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19046.msg472856#msg472856 date=1310351809]
[me=Tirea Aean]goes to figure out what in the WORLD ŏ,ɛ̆,ɔ̆, and ɛ̆ are...[/me]
[/quote]

Ningay srak?  Ke smon ngaru IPA? o_o

They are short diphthongs, as short as a short vowel.


[/quote]

I only recognize o, e, ɛ, and ɔ



msg=472864 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 02:49:25 | u=1975

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Ean Tirea

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19046.msg472853#msg472853 date=1310351521]

  • K → velar H: [nobbc]Instead of shifting to [h] when leniting k, it shifts to [x].  A sound change that may have historically occured is that lenited k, [x], got weakened to [h].  Paul mentioned that this also happens in languages such as Hebrew, where the [x] is still intact.[/nobbc]


[/quote]

I Also thought about that, and I KNEW someone else was thinking it when trying to rationalize how [k] --> [h] instead of [nobbc][x][/nobbc] when [p]-->[f] and [t]-->[nobbc][/nobbc]



msg=472867 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 02:57:53 | u=5408

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Amaya

Taking a look at a language with a LOT of lenition might give you some idea:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_initial_mutations]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_initial_mutations[/url]

As someone who studied Irish for two years formally and quite a long time casually, I can tell you that Na'vi lenition is, for lack of a better word, very simple ;)



msg=472869 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 03:01:35 | u=1975

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Amaya link=topic=19046.msg472867#msg472867 date=1310353073]
[spoiler=snip]Taking a look at a language with a LOT of lenition might give you some idea:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_initial_mutations]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_initial_mutations[/url]

As someone who studied Irish for two years formally and quite a long time casually,[/spoiler] I can tell you that [blue]Na'vi[/blue] lenition [blue]is, for lack of a better word, very simple ;)[/blue]
[/quote]

IMO This can be said about MANY traits of Na'vi. YEs, it has its few exceptions here and there, but it is VERY logical and simple in general. does that seem fair to say?



msg=472870 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 03:04:01 | u=7142

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Ftxavanga Txe′lan

That old Na'vi dialect thing is very fascinating! Thanks a lot for sharing. :D

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19046.msg472869#msg472869 date=1310353295]
[quote author=Amaya link=topic=19046.msg472867#msg472867 date=1310353073]
[spoiler=snip]Taking a look at a language with a LOT of lenition might give you some idea:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_initial_mutations]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_initial_mutations[/url]

As someone who studied Irish for two years formally and quite a long time casually,[/spoiler] I can tell you that [blue]Na'vi[/blue] lenition [blue]is, for lack of a better word, very simple ;)[/blue]
[/quote]

IMO This can be said about MANY traits of Na'vi. YEs, it has its few exceptions here and there, but it is VERY logical and simple in general. does that seem fair to say?[/quote]
I guess so. ;)



msg=473619 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 16:53:30 | u=7738

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

wow. I ask for a little clarification on that [nobbc]x[/nobbc]. do you mean it's like the "kh" you make at the back of your gum (where you make "ng" and "k", "g") (the one that sounds like static noise), or is it the one we in Hebrew and Russian (the "khkhkhkhkh" that most English speakers just can't pronounce)?



msg=473621 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 17:05:33 | u=1975

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Ean Tirea

[quote]
wow. I ask for a little clarification on that [nobbc][x][/nobbc]. do you mean it's like the "kh" you make at the back of your gum (where you make "ng" and "k", "g") (the one that sounds like static noise), or is it the one we in Hebrew and Russian (the "khkhkhkhkh" that most English speakers just can't pronounce)?
[/quote]

at first I didnt see the [nobbc][x][/nobbc]. dont forget to use [nobbc][nobbc][/nobbc][/nobbc] to make sure ipa [] show up correctly. ;D (I edited it in the quote, instead of in your post)

I would want to agree though I think I'm able to pronounce that.



msg=473629 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 17:20:45 | u=7738

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19046.msg473621#msg473621 date=1310490333]
[quote]
wow. I ask for a little clarification on that [nobbc][x][/nobbc]. do you mean it's like the "kh" you make at the back of your gum (where you make "ng" and "k", "g") (the one that sounds like static noise), or is it the one we in Hebrew and Russian (the "khkhkhkhkh" that most English speakers just can't pronounce)?
[/quote]

at first I didnt see the [nobbc][x][/nobbc]. dont forget to use [nobbc][nobbc][/nobbc][/nobbc] to make sure ipa [] show up correctly. ;D (I edited it in the quote, instead of in your post)

I would want to agree though I think I'm able to pronounce that.
[/quote]
agree on what?
I asked which one of those sounds is the "X".



msg=473632 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 17:24:03 | u=1975

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Ean Tirea

oh. Well if I'm not mistaken, [nobbc][x][/nobbc] is the voiceless velar fricative. [ŋ] is the velar nasal, so indeed they are made in the same place, by that definition.

[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19046.msg473619#msg473619 date=1310489610]
wow. I ask for a little clarification on that [nobbc]x[/nobbc]. do you mean it's like the "kh" you make at the back of your gum (where you make "ng" and "k", "g") (the one that sounds like static noise), or is it the one we in Hebrew and Russian (the "khkhkhkhkh" that most English speakers just can't pronounce)?
[/quote]

I'd say it's that one, but "at the back of your gum" seems kinda sketchy, maybe I'm not understanding that correctly.

[ɡ] is the voiced velar plosive, and [k] is the voiceless velar plosive.

the velar region is toward the back.



msg=473634 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 17:26:59 | u=7738

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

so it wasn't so true of 'Oma Tirea to say it's like in Hebrew. :)
and also, if this is a different sound from "H", we should use a different letter ("X"?).



msg=473670 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 18:33:53 | u=6582

Re: Phonetics: what I found

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19046.msg473634#msg473634 date=1310491619]
so it wasn't so true of 'Oma Tirea to say it's like in Hebrew. :)
and also, if this is a different sound from "H", we should use a different letter ("X"?).
[/quote]

No, it's still spelled with an h.  The IPA just uses the letter x for the [desc=Likely not uvular, which is what a lot of European languages seem to have.]velar[/desc] fricative.

I was using Hebrew as an example because Pawl mentioned it, and merely to show that this type of lenition does indeed happen in 'Rrtan languages.  Can anyone else think of any other languages that lenite [nobbc][k] to [x][/nobbc]?




msg=473671 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 18:37:18 | u=631

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Plumps83

[quote author=Amaya link=topic=19046.msg472867#msg472867 date=1310353073]
Taking a look at a language with a LOT of lenition might give you some idea:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_initial_mutations]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_initial_mutations[/url]

As someone who studied Irish for two years formally and quite a long time casually, I can tell you that Na'vi lenition is, for lack of a better word, very simple ;)[/quote]
[font=Georgia]:P [desc=ngaru tìyawr]tá an ceart agat[/desc] ;)



msg=473700 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 19:16:19 | u=7738

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19046.msg473670#msg473670 date=1310495633]
[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19046.msg473634#msg473634 date=1310491619]
so it wasn't so true of 'Oma Tirea to say it's like in Hebrew. :)
and also, if this is a different sound from "H", we should use a different letter ("X"?).
[/quote]

No, it's still spelled with an h.  The IPA just uses the letter x for the [desc=Likely not uvular, which is what a lot of European languages seem to have.]velar[/desc] fricative.

I was using Hebrew as an example because Pawl mentioned it, and merely to show that this type of lenition does indeed happen in 'Rrtan languages.  Can anyone else think of any other languages that lenite [nobbc][k] to [x][/nobbc]?


[/quote]
so I just read a bit in Wikipedia about velars and uvulars, and if I understood correctly the Hebrew "x" is voiceless uvular fricative, and the Na'vi one would be voiceless velar fricative.



msg=473949 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 11:02:21 | u=2788

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Lance R. Casey

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19046.msg473670#msg473670 date=1310495633]
Can anyone else think of any other languages that lenite [nobbc][k] to [x][/nobbc]?
[/quote]

Sindarin does, under certain conditions -- e.g. Dor Gyrth i Chuinar Land of the Dead that Live (cuina live). To be fair, though, this is not an example of the Sindarin soft mutation (lenition), but of what is called nasal mutation: it is triggered by the final n in the plural article in, which is itself "absorbed" into the resulting spirant. There are several other mutations in the language which would also yield a change [nobbc][k][/nobbc] > [nobbc][x][/nobbc], but under lenition proper cuinar would become guinar.



msg=473950 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 11:17:42 | u=631

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Plumps83

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=19046.msg473949#msg473949 date=1310554941]
[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19046.msg473670#msg473670 date=1310495633]
Can anyone else think of any other languages that lenite [nobbc][k] to [x][/nobbc]?
[/quote]

Sindarin does, under certain conditions -- e.g. Dor Gyrth i Chuinar Land of the Dead that Live (cuina live). To be fair, though, this is not an example of the Sindarin soft mutation (lenition), but of what is called nasal mutation: it is triggered by the final n in the plural article in, which is itself "absorbed" into the resulting spirant. There are several other mutations in the language which would also yield a change [nobbc][k][/nobbc] > [nobbc][x][/nobbc], but under lenition proper cuinar would become guinar.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Same as in Irish: Mostly after certain prepositions lenition occurs, e.g.
cloch (stone) => ar chloch (on a stone)
this is a change from /k/ to /x/ although it can also become /x´/ (don’t know what the official IPA sign is for this, it varies greatly, I believe (it’s the same difference between the ch for the Composer Bach and the word for ‘I’ = ich in German). This happens in Irish as well with slender consonants.
ciúin (quiet) changes to bean chiúin (quiet woman) where the ch is the /x´/ I talked about.

What LRC describes for Sindarin is also true for Irish, there it’s called eclipse:
cloch (stone) => ar an gcloch (on the stone), where the c /k/ sound remains in writing but it’s pronounced /glox/



msg=474269 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 07:32:45 | u=4754

Re: Phonetics: what I found

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

This is all fascinating stuff! But a bit hard to grasp for a person who does not have a thorough linguistic background. I am wondering if 'Oma Tirea or someone else thoroughly versed in pronunciation of these sounds would want to spend some time on Skype going over this stuff with me sometime in the next few days?



msg=474489 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 19:21:06 | u=7206

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Kamean

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=19046.msg474269#msg474269 date=1310628765]
This is all fascinating stuff! But a bit hard to grasp for a person who does not have a thorough linguistic background. I am wondering if 'Oma Tirea or someone else thoroughly versed in pronunciation of these sounds would want to spend some time on Skype going over this stuff with me sometime in the next few days?
[/quote]
Agree :)



msg=474526 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 20:41:59 | u=6582

Re: Phonetics: what I found

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=19046.msg474269#msg474269 date=1310628765]
This is all fascinating stuff! But a bit hard to grasp for a person who does not have a thorough linguistic background. I am wondering if 'Oma Tirea or someone else thoroughly versed in pronunciation of these sounds would want to spend some time on Skype going over this stuff with me sometime in the next few days?
[/quote]

You can meet me in TS tomorrow Saturday night if that'll work for you (if it doesn't PM me) :)




msg=474586 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 21:47:16 | u=1975

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Ean Tirea

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19046.msg474526#msg474526 date=1310676119]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=19046.msg474269#msg474269 date=1310628765]
This is all fascinating stuff! But a bit hard to grasp for a person who does not have a thorough linguistic background. I am wondering if 'Oma Tirea or someone else thoroughly versed in pronunciation of these sounds would want to spend some time on Skype going over this stuff with me sometime in the next few days?
[/quote]

You can meet me in TS tomorrow Saturday night if that'll work for you (if it doesn't PM me) :)


[/quote]

I might be sitting in there randomly, dont mind me, just a lurk :P



msg=474592 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 21:57:48 | u=6582

Re: Phonetics: what I found

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19046.msg474586#msg474586 date=1310680036]
[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19046.msg474526#msg474526 date=1310676119]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=19046.msg474269#msg474269 date=1310628765]
This is all fascinating stuff! But a bit hard to grasp for a person who does not have a thorough linguistic background. I am wondering if 'Oma Tirea or someone else thoroughly versed in pronunciation of these sounds would want to spend some time on Skype going over this stuff with me sometime in the next few days?
[/quote]

You can meet me in TS tomorrow Saturday night if that'll work for you (if it doesn't PM me) :)


[/quote]

I might be sitting in there randomly, dont mind me, just a lurk :P
[/quote]

Didn't see you there (yet...?)...




msg=474600 | topic=19046 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 22:09:37 | u=1975

Re: Phonetics: what I found

Ean Tirea

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19046.msg474592#msg474592 date=1310680668]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19046.msg474586#msg474586 date=1310680036]
[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19046.msg474526#msg474526 date=1310676119]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=19046.msg474269#msg474269 date=1310628765]
This is all fascinating stuff! But a bit hard to grasp for a person who does not have a thorough linguistic background. I am wondering if 'Oma Tirea or someone else thoroughly versed in pronunciation of these sounds would want to spend some time on Skype going over this stuff with me sometime in the next few days?
[/quote]

You can meet me in TS tomorrow Saturday night if that'll work for you (if it doesn't PM me) :)


[/quote]

I might be sitting in there randomly, dont mind me, just a lurk :P
[/quote]

Didn't see you there (yet...?)...


[/quote]

Vacation. 10 July - 15 July 2011 Ocean City, MD.



msg=473273 | topic=19060 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 20:28:33 | u=54

Some little bits on "tut"

Tiger

On Saturday I asked Karyu Pawl about the particle of continuation, "tut".  Most linguistic topics I have had no trouble researching, but that one has eluded my attempts to search for anything about it, so I wanted some clarification.  I learned two things about it.

1. It is modeled after the Mandarin Chinese particle "ne".  (Here's some [url=http://howtolearnchineseonline.com/tag/use-of-ne-in-chinese]information I found online[/url] later.)

2. So far we've only seen it uses in the form of "ngaru tut", but that is just because the questions it's used for are asked with "nga" in the dative.  You should match the case when asking the question back.  For example...

A: [desc=Did you see him?]Ngal poti tsole'a srak?[/desc]
B: [desc=No, did you?]Kehe, ngal tut?[/desc]
A: [desc=Yes!]Srane![/desc]

I did not get a chance to ask about other uses of "ne" in Mandarin Chinese, as at the time I did not know anything about it.  I also did not think to ask about it being used with any noun case (Esp. genitive or topic) or with adpositions instead of noun case.



msg=473288 | topic=19060 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 20:43:12 | u=1550

Re: Some little bits on "tut"

Taras

Irayo, but it was clear to me because we have almost the same thing in Russian and there cases also are matched.

But I have a question. In Russian we could ask the question back concerning not only "you", but any person. We even could ask "who does?" using the same construction. Is it possible in Na'vi? For example:

A: [desc=Did you see him?]Ngal poti tsole'a srak?[/desc]
B: [desc=No, did you?]Kehe, ngal tut?[/desc]
A: [desc=No!]Kehe![/desc]
B: [desc=And did your brother?]Tsmukanìl ngeyä tut?[/desc]
A: [desc=No.]Kehe.[/desc]
B: [desc=But who did?]Pesul tut?[/desc]
A: [desc=Neytiri]Neytiril.[/desc]



msg=473308 | topic=19060 | board=99 | time=2011-07-11 21:14:34 | u=54

Re: Some little bits on "tut"

Tiger

That was one of the things that I did not get to clarify, since I had no knowledge of any language with such a thing ahead of time, hence why I asked.  However, given that such a use is possible in Mandarin, I would be surprised if it was not possible in Na'vi as well.  I would not go so far as to make an assumption that it was.  (In fact, the part you said was clear I thought seemed pretty clear too, but since we have not really had any word on it at all from Frommer, I just wanted to make sure that's how it worked rather than assuming.)



msg=473462 | topic=19060 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 07:17:16 | u=631

Re: Some little bits on "tut"

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Thanks for this little but useful information :)

Does that mean that tut is kind of a question word like srak?

Also, for me that indicates that no kop or nìteng is needed, right?



msg=473583 | topic=19060 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 15:08:18 | u=7206

Re: Some little bits on "tut"

Kamean

Thanks for this. :)



msg=473622 | topic=19060 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 17:06:03 | u=7738

Re: Some little bits on "tut"

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

irayo. so basically tut continues the last sentence so we don't have to mention it again (or something like that).
example:
ngal poti tsole'a srak?
kehe, ngal [desc=replaces "poti tsole'a"]tut[/desc]?

if my way of thinking is correct, then tut is like "do" in English.
have you seen him?
no, did you?

if that's so I think we can confidently assume that it can be used with other people as well.



msg=473636 | topic=19060 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 17:28:12 | u=21

Re: Some little bits on "tut"

wm.annis

[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19060.msg473622#msg473622 date=1310490363]if my way of thinking is correct, then tut is like "do" in English.
have you seen him?
no, did you?
[/quote]

If this is like Chinese "ne", then saying it's like English "do" is potentially quite misleading.  Though, your example is good.

"What about ...?" seems like a good dodge.

  A: Trram ke zup tompa. "It didn't rain yesterday."
  B: Fìtrr tut? "What about today?"



msg=473638 | topic=19060 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 17:31:33 | u=7738

Re: Some little bits on "tut"

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

yes something like that. :D



msg=473657 | topic=19060 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 17:58:37 | u=1975

Re: Some little bits on "tut"

Ean Tirea

what about the children???!! xD

interesting how we have tsaw, pum, and tut which have similar functions.



msg=473389 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 00:10:37 | u=73

Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

Tiny bit of ‘blessed’ canon from song translations from Siätll

Kxu takes ››› wä ku or kxuwä in Na’vi instead of *TA that might be incorrectly predicted by English. Wan wä ku means to “hide from harm”.

Mìn does not mean to turn left or right, but rather its core meaning is to rotate on an axis. K. Pawl shared that it was originally created to describe the ‘turning’ of a turret on some kind of RDA military equipment for a line that was never performed/recorded in the films.

Direct address can happen interstitially in a sentence without affecting the sentence or being a part of it in any way. E.g. Frìp frìp, ma Evitsyìp, torukä tsawla kxa. Of course, this would be more common in songs or poetry than in everyday speech.

Tompa can just ‘begin’ via sngä’i without the core verb needing to be expressed in the subjunctive. Presumably that means that it can also ftang and/or ’i’a likewise. I assume it would ’i’a (and not ftang), but that needs to be confirmed still.

Tsawke can takuk indicating that it is particularly direct and strong. CF “beating down” in English and “tompa ’eko” in Na’vi.

“To dry something” (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).

Hì’ang tìran (indicating that there may be no word for 'crawl' in Na’vi that is strongly associated with their movement the way it is in English). This was not a decision made by K. Pawl explicitly, but bugs/insects typically do not walk in English, so it's worth noting.

The Museum was teaching a custom song during other activity periods called “Head and Shoulders, Knees and Toes” (but sung to a different tune than you may be familiar with).

Paul created the vocabulary item ’etnaw, ‘shoulder’ (dual metnaw) for the Education department there many months ago, but there had been no ‘public release’ via his blog, etc. until Saturday and his confirmation of the new word in the singular.




msg=473443 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 05:06:53 | u=54

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Tiger

Glad I got "sleyku ukxo" right in my original translation of the little bug song. It certainly seemed like the most sensible way to say it. (BTW, [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/fan-music/old-mc-donald-song/msg208067/#msg208067]here[/url], since you mentioned you couldn't find it.)

Either way, pretty cool stuff! :)



msg=473460 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 07:14:06 | u=631

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]It is, thank you so much.

Surely, you meant wan wä ku ;)

What song did you sing?



msg=473566 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 14:49:16 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg473460#msg473460 date=1310454846]
[font=Georgia]It is, thank you so much.

Surely, you meant wan wä ku ;)

What song did you sing?

[/quote]

Yes, of course.

I'll go correct it! Seiyi irayo.

The song is a translation (reinterpretation) of Row, Row, Row Your Boat.

Tul Hu Nga

Tul, tul, tul hu nga
Na’rìngka nì’o’.
Nìprrte’, prrte’, prrte’, prrte’
Oehu makto ko!

Mìn, mìn, kenten mìn.
Pelun ke ’efu spxin?
Nìteng, nìteng, nìteng, ayoeng
Mivay’ na po nìwin.

Fnu, fnu, wäpan wä ku
Uo tsaìpxa.
Frìp, frìp, ma Evitsyìp,
Torukä tsawla kxa!

I should have included the lyrics originally.




msg=473568 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 14:53:29 | u=6892

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Sireayä mokri

Wou, txantsan! :)



msg=473587 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 15:19:41 | u=7206

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Kamean

Tìrol atxansan! :)

Ulte mipa horen lesara nìtxan. :D



msg=473627 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 17:15:37 | u=7738

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

[quote]Direct address can happen interstitially in a sentence without affecting the sentence or being a part of it in any way. E.g. Frìp frìp, ma Evitsyìp, torukä tsawla kxa. Of course, this would be more common in songs or poetry than in everyday speech.[/quote]
it was quite clear to me actually, but I always used it in endings and beginnings of sentences to not interrupt the sentence. but it's good to know my thoughts were true.



msg=473669 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 18:32:24 | u=631

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473566#msg473566 date=1310482156]
The song is a translation (reinterpretation) of Row, Row, Row Your Boat.

Tul Hu Nga
…[/quote]

[font=Georgia]This is great! Fantastic ;D
Hope to hear the recording soon ;)



msg=473677 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 18:47:25 | u=6582

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473566#msg473566 date=1310482156]
I should have included the lyrics originally.
[/quote]

Srane, and you missed the other song as well.




msg=473681 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 18:50:42 | u=6582

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote]
Nìprrte’, prrte’, prrte’, prrte’
[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, the repetition of an adverb can drop the nì- on subsequent repeats, kefyak?  Or was it made that way just to fit in?

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
Mìn does not mean to turn left or right, but rather its core meaning is to rotate on an axis. K. Pawl shared that it was originally created to describe the ‘turning’ of a turret on some kind of RDA military equipment for a line that was never performed/recorded in the films.
[/quote]

Are you sure it doesn't even have multiple meanings?  We already have kìm...

...or am I missing something and Na'vi is likely going to have a third word?




msg=473730 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 19:46:14 | u=7704

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

radek.raszka

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
Mìn does not mean to turn left or right, but rather its core meaning is to rotate on an axis. K. Pawl shared that it was originally created to describe the ‘turning’ of a turret on some kind of RDA military equipment for a line that was never performed/recorded in the films.
[/quote]
Has this explanation effect to meaning of mìnyu: ["mIn.ju] PF n. turner (derived from mìn turn)? It is also name of the plant.



msg=473759 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-12 20:52:58 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19064.msg473681#msg473681 date=1310496642]
[quote]
Nìprrte’, prrte’, prrte’, prrte’
[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, the repetition of an adverb can drop the nì- on subsequent repeats, kefyak?  Or was it made that way just to fit in?
[/quote]

That was to fit the process of singing it. Please don't extrapolate that to everyday grammar. Paul grammatically preferred Nìprrte’, nìprrte’, nìprrte’, nìprrte’, but we (I especially (with the audience in mind)) felt that it was very difficult to sing. It is essentially 4 syllables in pragmatic length due to the way prr is pronounced.

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19064.msg473681#msg473681 date=1310496642]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
Mìn does not mean to turn left or right, but rather its core meaning is to rotate on an axis. K. Pawl shared that it was originally created to describe the ‘turning’ of a turret on some kind of RDA military equipment for a line that was never performed/recorded in the films.
[/quote]

Are you sure it doesn't even have multiple meanings?  We already have kìm...

...or am I missing something and Na'vi is likely going to have a third word?

[/quote]

It may have been better to use the action of kìm to describe the behavior of the kenten in the song. I'm not sure. But the lack of overlap is with the "broadest" sense of the semantic range of TURN in English.

If you are in a moving vehicle and you turn left or right, the vehicle is not engaged in the the process of mìn as K. Pawl described it. It is turning on an arc, not an axis. If you're flying on an ikran and you turn left or right, that is also not mìn as articulated to me. The animal must be in (forward) motion for the direction to change. Most ’Rrtan birds could not mìn in flight, but a hummingbird effectively can. I expect that a zize’ could also mìn while hovering, but that's a guess on my part. Note that when Jake speaks about turning in flight he uses the word BANK. Perhaps that points towards a Na’vi word we don't know yet.

When you turn your head left or right, that IS the action of mìn (and your neck is the axis). A traditional tank sitting still at an intersection would have to mìn to turn. It would do that on the imaginary axis created by one of its treads moving forward while the other one moved backward. Perhaps K. Pawl felt that mìn was OK for the kenten because the entirety of his body does not 'spin', only his fan does. We'd have to ask him. I did not discuss the difference between mìn and kìm with him specifically. We only talked about the origins of mìn. But the turret of a vehicle typically turns/rotates without spinning (fast and continually).

Note that the word in Japanese used for turning a corner, etc. is magaru which is also the word for "bend". To "turn a corner" in Japanese, one "bends" it (transitively) to the left or to the right.

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=19064.msg473730#msg473730 date=1310499974]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
Mìn does not mean to turn left or right, but rather its core meaning is to rotate on an axis. K. Pawl shared that it was originally created to describe the ‘turning’ of a turret on some kind of RDA military equipment for a line that was never performed/recorded in the films.
[/quote]
Has this explanation effect to meaning of mìnyu: ["mIn.ju] PF n. turner (derived from mìn turn)? It is also name of the plant.
[/quote]

I don't see why it would. If parts of the plant rotate around an axis (the stalk?) then it is engaging in the action of mìn. I have never seen the behavior animated or written up in a full description, but as long as it doesn't move forward and turn on an arc then the language seems consistent.




msg=473971 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 13:47:00 | u=6105

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Tanri

Very interesting (and completely new to me) explanation, ma Prrton, thank you.
So the noun "mìnyu" (in general sense, not as a plant name) has the meaning "something (or someone) that rotates around its axis"?



msg=473989 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 15:54:23 | u=631

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I thought as much …

I used it in a [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/pamtseo-ninavi-niaw/srake-nga-srew-oehu-an-old-dancing-tune/]song [desc=for Srake nga srew oehu]translation[/desc][/url] a while back and asked about it [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/min-or-kim/]then[/url]



msg=474012 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 17:43:59 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=19064.msg473971#msg473971 date=1310564820]
Very interesting (and completely new to me) explanation, ma Prrton, thank you.
So the noun "mìnyu" (in general sense, not as a plant name) has the meaning "something (or someone) that rotates around its axis"?
[/quote]

Though the -yu suffix is fairly productive, I'm not sure what the contexts are for all of the resulting nouns. What would fnuyu actually mean, for example? Is it someone who is mute (unable to speak), or someone who does not speak up when the truth needs to be revealed? I don't know.

Mìnyu might only be a type of plant that has that name through Na’vipomorphism. Perhaps a mìnyu could also be a person who performs the job of 'lookout'/'guard' (constantly turning about to look for signs of danger) or a kind of dancer, as Tsm. Plupmps has guessed. I don't know.




msg=474071 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 19:51:34 | u=6105

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Tanri

We have to take it from the positive side: When we recognise that we don't know, in that moment we just learned at least one thing - the very fact that we don't know. :)



msg=474075 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 19:59:03 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=19064.msg474071#msg474071 date=1310586694]
We have to take it from the positive side: When we recognise that we don't know, in that moment we just learned at least one thing - the very fact that we don't know. :)
[/quote]

Ngaru tìyawr nìlaw!




msg=474082 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 20:18:12 | u=7704

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=19064.msg474071#msg474071 date=1310586694]
We have to take it from the positive side: When we recognise that we don't know, in that moment we just learned at least one thing - the very fact that we don't know. :)
[/quote]
That reminds me great Czech imaginary säfpìltu Jara Cimrman and his theory of cognition - We know everything : We know nothing  ;D

As mìnyu is a little ungrabbable or unseizable word, we can use it safely only as plant name. Maybe more such "unusable" words exist. For me for example pängkxoyu lekoren - I'd like to hear real tute leNa'vi how po uses it  ;D



msg=474088 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 20:31:55 | u=4754

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

A lot of plants do move (to follow the sun, etc) by twisting on their stem, so mìn would be appropriate in many cases.

However, the infamous SatNa`vi is now inaccurate in its mìn ftär and mìn skien instructions.

A 'great circle' kind of turn like a car or an ikran would make would be a useful term. I remember long ago (before the corrent version of the LEP) suggesting a list of basic aeronautical terms that would relate to flight on an ikran or on toruk. It sounds like this list will need to have a term for turn added. I guess it is time to revisit that list.

In any case, Irayo fpì fmawn a lì`fya, ma Prrton!



msg=474102 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 21:03:32 | u=631

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
“To dry something” (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Just noticed that this could also mean that ‘to clean something’ could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???



msg=474125 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-13 22:03:32 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg474102#msg474102 date=1310591012]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
“To dry something” (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Just noticed that this could also mean that ‘to clean something’ could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???
[/quote]

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D




msg=474198 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 04:16:57 | u=6582

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=19064.msg474088#msg474088 date=1310589115]
However, the infamous SatNa`vi is now inaccurate in its mìn ftär and mìn skien instructions.
[/quote]

It looks like it may be inaccurate from the get-go.  They should be [desc=new, unknown verb for "turn"]???[/desc] nìftär/nìskien.  How can you attribute an adjective to a verb...or are ftär and skien adverbs as well and we never knew it?




msg=474276 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 07:43:23 | u=4754

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19064.msg474198#msg474198 date=1310617017]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=19064.msg474088#msg474088 date=1310589115]
However, the infamous SatNa`vi is now inaccurate in its mìn ftär and mìn skien instructions.
[/quote]

It looks like it may be inaccurate from the get-go.  They should be [desc=new, unknown verb for "turn"]???[/desc] nìftär/nìskien.  How can you attribute an adjective to a verb...or are ftär and skien adverbs as well and we never knew it?

[/quote]

Taronyu took a number of liberties in the process of creating the 'Avatar' voice for the SatNavs. There are some interesting word combinations used to represent 1/4 1/2 and 3/4 of a mile. `eyt and nayn are used with venu to indicate decimal feet. tìhum is used for 'exit', and this is a nonattested word. And of course at the time, he did not understand the proper meaning of mìn Then, there is Taronyu's decidely 'british' dialect of Na`vi. I am giving some thought to making my own Na`vi cues, and there is a tool available for building those cues. (The SatNa`vi drove the friend traveling with me nuts. Although for a while, he was genuinely trying to understand a few Na`vi words. At one point he told me to switch to another language. I asked him 'what language?' He said, not seriously, 'Mandarin'. Well, the Mandarin language is included, so I switched it to Mandarin. THAT was strange!)



msg=474365 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 14:27:12 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton


Ma Frapo,

Let's keep in mind that mìn also *could* also be used to refer to "turning on an arc", but that's not its genesis. I agree that it seems that many liberties had to be and were taken to create a word like "exit". I also don't believe that Taronyu consulted K. Pawl.

By the way, here is the genesis of TURN in English:

[font=Georgia]ORIGIN Old English tyrnan, turnian (verb), from Latin tornare, from tornus ‘lathe,’ from Greek tornos ‘lathe, circular movement’ ; probably reinforced in Middle English by Old French turner. The noun ( Middle English ) is partly from Anglo-Norman French tourn, partly from the verb.

I suggest that Language Committee take this on as a project at some point in the future to figure out if the Na’vi use this word in ways that we don't expect?; just use for 'turning' left and 'right'?; or if they use some other verbs that are closer to 'veer, bank, curve, bend', 'hang a (left/right)' etc.; or some combination (as we do in English)?

Turn is a word of very varied meanings in English (that even covers the Na’vi sense of alo):

verb
1 the wheels were still turning: go around, revolve, rotate, spin, roll, circle, wheel, whirl, twirl, gyrate, swivel, pivot.
2 I turned and headed back: change direction, change course, make a U-turn, about-face, turn around/about; informal pull a U-ey, do a one-eighty.
3 the car turned the corner: go around, round, negotiate, take.
4 the path turned to right and left: bend, curve, wind, veer, twist, meander, snake, zigzag.
5 he turned his gun on Lenny: aim at, point at, level at, direct at, train on.
6 he turned his ankle: sprain, twist, wrench; hurt.
7 their honeymoon turned into a nightmare: become, develop into, turn out to be; be transformed into, metamorphose into, descend into, grow into.
8 Emma turned red: become, go, grow, get.
9 he turned the house into apartments: convert, change, transform, make; adapt, modify, rebuild, reconstruct.
10 I've just turned forty: reach, get to, become, hit.
11 she turned to politics: take up, become involved in, go into, enter, undertake.
12 we can now turn to another topic: move on to, go on to, proceed to, consider, attend to, address; take up, switch to.

noun
1 a turn of the wheel: rotation, revolution, spin, whirl, gyration, swivel.
2 a turn to the left: change of direction, veer, divergence.
3 we're approaching the turn: bend, corner, turning, turnoff, junction, crossroads.
4 you'll get your turn in a minute: opportunity, chance, say; stint, time; try; informal go, shot, stab, crack.
5 she did me some good turns: service, deed, act; favor, kindness.

PHRASES
at every turn her name seemed to come up at every turn: repeatedly, recurrently, all the time, always, constantly, again and again.
in turn let's consider these three points in turn: one after the other, one by one, one at a time, in succession, successively, sequentially.
take a turn for the better his luck took a turn for the better: improve, pick up, look up, perk up, rally, turn the corner; recover, revive.
take a turn for the worse even the doctors were surprised when Richie took a turn for the worse: deteriorate, worsen, decline; informal go downhill.
turn against after his father died, Bruce turned against his stepmother: become hostile to, take a dislike to, betray, double-cross.
turn away I know you're hurt, but please don't turn us away: send away, reject, rebuff, repel, cold-shoulder; informal send packing.
turn back just before boarding the ferry, Clint changed his mind and turned back: retrace one's steps, go back, return; retreat.
turn down 1 his novel was turned down: reject, refuse, decline, spurn, rebuff. 2 Pete turned the volume down: reduce, lower, decrease, lessen; muffle, mute.
turn in 1 he turned in his brother to the police: betray, inform on, denounce, sell out, stab someone in the back; blow the whistle on, rat on, squeal on, finger. 2 we turned in the entrance forms just in time: hand in/over/back, give in, submit, surrender, give up; deliver, return. 3 I usually turn in before 10 o'clock: go to bed, retire, go to sleep, call it a day; informal hit the hay, hit the sack.
turn of events she was unprepared for this turn of events: development, incident, occurrence, happening, circumstance, surprise.
turn of phrase a clever turn of phrase: expression, idiom, phrase, term, word, aphorism.
turn off 1 his so-called jokes really turn me off: put off, leave cold, repel, disgust, revolt, offend; disenchant, alienate; bore, gross out. 2 please turn off the garage lights: switch off, shut off, turn out; extinguish; deactivate; informal kill, cut, power down.
turn on 1 the decision turned on the law: depend on, rest on, hinge on, be contingent on, be decided by. 2 okay, I admit it—his green eyes turn me on. See arouse (sense 3). 3 I'll turn on the generator: switch on, start up, activate, trip, power up. 4 it began as a simple disagreement, but then he turned on us like a mad dog: attack, set on, fall on, let fly at, lash out at, hit out at; informal lay into, tear into, let someone have it, bite someone's head off, jump down someone's throat; light into.
turn on to Christie has turned me on to the health benefits of yoga: introduce someone to, get someone into, pique someone's interest in.
turn out 1 a huge crowd turned out: come, be present, attend, appear, turn up, arrive; assemble, gather, show up. 2 it turned out that she had been abroad: transpire, emerge, come to light, become apparent, become clear. 3 things didn't turn out as I'd intended: happen, occur, come about; develop, proceed; work out, come out, end up, pan out, result; formal eventuate. 4 it's about time she turned out that bum of a boyfriend: throw out, eject, evict, expel, oust, drum out, banish; informal kick out, send packing, boot out, show someone the door. 5 turn out the light: switch off, shut off, turn off. 6 they turn out a million engines a year: produce, make, manufacture, fabricate, generate, put out, churn out.
turn over 1 the crate fell off the back of the truck and turned over: overturn, upturn, capsize, keel over, flip, turn turtle, be upended, tip. 2 I turned over a few pages: flip over, flick through, leaf through. 3 she turned the proposal over in her mind: think about, think over, consider, ponder, contemplate, reflect on, chew over, mull over, muse on, ruminate on. 4 he turned over the business to his brother: transfer, hand over, pass on, consign, commit.
turn someone's stomach the sight of blood turns my stomach: nauseate someone, sicken someone, make someone sick.
turn to I always had my grandparents to turn to: seek help from, have recourse to, approach, apply to, appeal to; take to, resort to.
turn up 1 the missing documents turned up: be found, be discovered, be located, reappear. 2 the police turned up: arrive, appear, present oneself, show up, show, show one's face. 3 something better will turn up: present itself, offer itself, occur, happen, crop up, appear. 4 she turned up the treble: increase, raise, amplify, intensify. 5 they turned up lots of information: discover, uncover, unearth, find, dig up, ferret out, root out, expose.



msg=474529 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-14 20:45:37 | u=6582

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg474365#msg474365 date=1310653632]
Turn is a word of very varied meanings in English (that even covers the Na’vi sense of alo):
[/quote]

...and slu to some extent as well.




msg=474750 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-15 07:43:28 | u=4754

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Wow! I never thought one word could have so many meanings! (I have always used the word 'dress' as an example of one word with many varied meanings.)

Under 'noun', number 1 and 2 feel more like adverbs than they do nouns.



msg=474752 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-15 07:48:32 | u=6582

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

lapo lesxkxawng

T.A. once told me the word "set" has a lot of meanings, too.  Conceptually they probably overlap with other words, and maybe even other meaning(s) of the same word.  Sran, English can be such a wonky language...




msg=474758 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-15 08:06:51 | u=4754

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19064.msg474752#msg474752 date=1310716112]
T.A. once told me the word "set" has a lot of meanings, too.  Conceptually they probably overlap with other words, and maybe even other meaning(s) of the same word.  Sran, English can be such a wonky language...

[/quote]

I am assuming you mean the English word 'set' here (and I have thought of a number of uses while writing this). However, the Na`vi word set also has a variety of meanings and seems to be one of the 'freer' words in the language.

Taronyu's pronunciation of set comes across as 'sud', and this took getting used to. I would have expected the final 't' to have been voiced a bot more like a 't', rather than totally like a 'd'. The 'e' is too much like 'u'. Now, I have an excuse to pull out one of those new large diaphragm condenser mikes I just got (at work) and try them out on some new SatNa`vi vocabulary!



msg=474832 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-15 14:11:24 | u=7738

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

[quote]However, the Na`vi word set also has a variety of meanings and seems to be one of the 'freer' words in the language.[/quote]
what variety? it just means "now".



msg=474955 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-15 19:55:39 | u=4754

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19064.msg474832#msg474832 date=1310739084]
[quote]However, the Na`vi word set also has a variety of meanings and seems to be one of the 'freer' words in the language.[/quote]
what variety? it just means "now".
[/quote]

It isn't so much meaning, as it is the variety of places in sentences it gets used.

BTW, does anyone have the words for the 'bug song'?



msg=475008 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-15 23:23:01 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=19064.msg474955#msg474955 date=1310759739]
[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19064.msg474832#msg474832 date=1310739084]
[quote]However, the Na`vi word set also has a variety of meanings and seems to be one of the 'freer' words in the language.[/quote]
what variety? it just means "now".
[/quote]

It isn't so much meaning, as it is the variety of places in sentences it gets used.

BTW, does anyone have the words for the 'bug song'?
[/quote]

  [font=Georgia]Hì’ia Hì’ang

  [font=Georgia]Hì’ia hì’ang tangeksìn tìran.
  [font=Georgia]Ye’rìn sngä’i tompa. Pot ’ekängo nìtxan.
  [font=Georgia]Takuk set tsawke. Sleyku fra’ut ukxo. Ha nì...
  [font=Georgia]Mun tseiun tsahì’ang vivar nìmwey sivop.




msg=475240 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 15:19:28 | u=7206

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Kamean

"Poem"tsyìp atxantsan. :)



msg=475243 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 15:33:18 | u=1975

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg475008#msg475008 date=1310772181]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=19064.msg474955#msg474955 date=1310759739]
[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19064.msg474832#msg474832 date=1310739084]
[quote]However, the Na`vi word set also has a variety of meanings and seems to be one of the 'freer' words in the language.[/quote]
what variety? it just means "now".
[/quote]

It isn't so much meaning, as it is the variety of places in sentences it gets used.

BTW, does anyone have the words for the 'bug song'?
[/quote]

  [font=Georgia]Hì’ia Hì’ang

  [font=Georgia]Hì’ia hì’ang tangeksìn tìran.
  [font=Georgia]Ye’rìn sngä’i tompa. Pot ’ekängo nìtxan.
  [font=Georgia]Takuk set tsawke. Sleyku fra’ut ukxo. Ha nì...
  [font=Georgia]Mun tseiun tsahì’ang vivar nìmwey sivop.


[/quote]

what happened with line 3?

EDIT: kidding. I see what you did there... (line wrapping in the middle of a word...who DOES THAT? HRH)



msg=475247 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 15:40:54 | u=7738

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

HRH nì...mun.
by the way in the first line sìn (onto) is wrong. it should be .



msg=475253 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 15:51:32 | u=1975

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19064.msg475247#msg475247 date=1310830854]
HRH nì...mun.
by the way in the first line sìn (onto) is wrong. it should be .
[/quote]

why cant the hì'ang walk onto a treetrunk?, you know, before he starts to climb it?

EDIT: Fair enough, sìn and mì [desc=would be]are[/desc] both one-syllable enclitic adpositons (and it seems that Paul did not raise suspicion with using -sìn there over -mì...)



msg=475254 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 15:53:21 | u=7738

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

well.. it's possible, but I think the wanted meaning is that he's already walking on it.



msg=475259 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 16:01:31 | u=21

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

wm.annis

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19064.msg475243#msg475243 date=1310830398](line wrapping in the middle of a word...who DOES THAT? HRH)
[/quote]

This probably isn't the place for a survey for Metrical Forms on Earth, but suffice it to say that there are poetic and song traditions which have no problem disjointing a word across a major metrical boundary.



msg=475266 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 16:17:42 | u=7738

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

maybe it can be pronounce as one word "stretched", without breathing in between. :-\\



msg=475268 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 16:19:18 | u=1975

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Ean Tirea

it just simply caught me off guard reading it. had to read it a few times in its stanza form to get it. had it been a one-liner, I wouldn't have had that problem xD



msg=475288 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 17:32:18 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19064.msg475247#msg475247 date=1310830854]
HRH nì...mun.
by the way in the first line sìn (onto) is wrong. it should be .
[/quote]

By calling this "wrong" for the meaning of "on" you are directly or indirectly (depending on your point of view) impugning the usage of Paul Frommer. He had free reign to change the lyrics of both of the songs to his liking. He was given translations in English and in the English the bug is walking "on" the trunk. Our dictionary gives sìn as meaning both on and onto, which is common in languages other than English.

I am under the impression that sìn means "on" in the sense of "making direct contact with a surface"; and that it takes on the meaning "onto" when a verb of directed motion is used.

Fwäkì spä sìn rìk ftu vul (onto the leaf from the branch. Contact with the leaf is the focus.) contrasted with Fwäkì spä mì rìk ((up and down?) on the leaf. The leaf is the general location where the jumping happens).

If these assumptions are wrong based on canon then we have some work to do with K. Pawl to tidy it up.



msg=475297 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 17:46:41 | u=7738

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

I think the dictionary's definition is "onto" and "on" because in English their meanings can overlap.
for example:
put the book onto the shelf
put the book on the shelf

both mean the same.


I am aware of the fact K. Pawl agreed about that (I listened to the meeting recording), so perhaps he wanted another meaning (of the mantis climbing onto the trunk). but I think it is more likely that the original meaning was that he was already on the trunk.



msg=475302 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 17:57:00 | u=631

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Plumps83

[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19064.msg475297#msg475297 date=1310838401]
I am aware of the fact K. Pawl agreed about that (I listened to the meeting recording), so perhaps he wanted another meaning (of the mantis climbing onto the trunk). but I think it is more likely that the original meaning was that he was already on the trunk.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Welcome to the wonderful world of the interpretation of literary texts ;D

Lu pxaya fya’o a eyk Kelutralne ;) … one possibility to say something doesn’t make it superior/better over the another.

The first appearance of sìn was in The Spiral Song as ‘The songs bind the thirteen spirals … to the eight spirit paths’ (Aywayìl yìm kifkeyä ’iheyut avomrr sìn tireafya’o avol)



msg=475316 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-16 18:35:57 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg475302#msg475302 date=1310839020]
[quote author=Tswusayona Tsamsiyu link=topic=19064.msg475297#msg475297 date=1310838401]
I am aware of the fact K. Pawl agreed about that (I listened to the meeting recording), so perhaps he wanted another meaning (of the mantis climbing onto the trunk). but I think it is more likely that the original meaning was that he was already on the trunk.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Welcome to the wonderful world of the interpretation of literary texts ;D

Lu pxaya fya’o a eyk Kelutralne ;) … one possibility to say something doesn’t make it superior/better over the another.

The first appearance of sìn was in The Spiral Song as ‘The songs bind the thirteen spirals … to the eight spirit paths’ (Aywayìl yìm kifkeyä ’iheyut avomrr sìn tireafya’o avol)

[/quote]

And in that we really have to use TO in English.

My only issue is with the proclamation that sìn is WRONG for the context of "ON".

has many translations from Na’vi into English.

  Wan mì na’rìng. Hide IN the forest.
  Slele mì ora. Swim IN the lake.
  Srew mì tayo. Dance ON the plain.
  Uvan si mì ya. Play IN the air.
  Yom mì helku. Eat IN (INSIDE) the house.

In my mind ro is the most general locative. is a more specific locative that is more 'aware' of the nature of the spaces it indicates. And then there are others that are very specific. Sìn is one of those, and it refers to relationships to surfaces and physical contact.

  Yom ro helku oeyä. Eat at my house (not some other location). That may be inside or outside. TBD.
  Yom mì helku oeyä. Eat at my house (likely INSIDE it).
  Yom sìn kelku oeyä. Eat on (the roof of) my house.

My opinion is informed by the way the equivalents of appositions work in all of the languages I know. Every language is different and has its peculiarities in this regard, not just for basic mechanisms, but for subtle differences that evolve based on specific contexts.

I will continue to use it this way until I'm corrected by K. Pawl. He was totally free to change sìn to in these lyrics, and did not.




msg=475466 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-17 03:16:18 | u=430

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg474125#msg474125 date=1310594612]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg474102#msg474102 date=1310591012]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
“To dry something” (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Just noticed that this could also mean that ‘to clean something’ could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???
[/quote]

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D
[/quote]

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?



msg=475467 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-17 03:21:29 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=19064.msg475466#msg475466 date=1310872578]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg474125#msg474125 date=1310594612]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg474102#msg474102 date=1310591012]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
“To dry something” (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Just noticed that this could also mean that ‘to clean something’ could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???
[/quote]

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D
[/quote]

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?
[/quote]

If you're cleaning up your camp in the middle of the plains you're not likely doing that with water.  ;)




msg=475482 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-17 05:02:28 | u=430

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg475467#msg475467 date=1310872889]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=19064.msg475466#msg475466 date=1310872578]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg474125#msg474125 date=1310594612]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg474102#msg474102 date=1310591012]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
“To dry something” (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Just noticed that this could also mean that ‘to clean something’ could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???
[/quote]

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D
[/quote]

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?
[/quote]

If you're cleaning up your camp in the middle of the plains you're not likely doing that with water.  ;)
[/quote]

Hmmmm, so would "yur" invariably require a solvent then?



msg=475487 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-17 05:07:01 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=19064.msg475482#msg475482 date=1310878948]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg475467#msg475467 date=1310872889]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=19064.msg475466#msg475466 date=1310872578]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg474125#msg474125 date=1310594612]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg474102#msg474102 date=1310591012]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
“To dry something” (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Just noticed that this could also mean that ‘to clean something’ could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???
[/quote]

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D
[/quote]

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?
[/quote]

If you're cleaning up your camp in the middle of the plains you're not likely doing that with water.  ;)
[/quote]

Hmmmm, so would "yur" invariably require a solvent then?
[/quote]

The only definition I see in the dictionary or have ever heard is WASH. When does that not require SOME solvent?  ???




msg=475569 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-17 11:36:56 | u=631

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg475316#msg475316 date=1310841357]
My only issue is with the proclamation that sìn is WRONG for the context of "ON".

has many translations from Na’vi into English.

  Wan mì na’rìng. Hide IN the forest.
  Slele mì ora. Swim IN the lake.
  Srew mì tayo. Dance ON the plain.
  Uvan si mì ya. Play IN the air.
  Yom mì helku. Eat IN (INSIDE) the house.
  Oeri skxir a mì syokx tìsraw sengi. The wound ON my hand hurts.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I agree with you completely and added another official use of to the list.

I just noticed now, on one of the [url=https://picasaweb.google.com/lrapplegate/2011LNSeattleMeetup?authuser=0&feat=directlink#5628942909081879122]pictures[/url] from the exhibition, and I hope it aligns with your sense of the word sìn. There is the sentence oeri nga kllkxem sìn kxetse as ‘you’re standing on my tail’ (I don’t know how much Dr. Frommer had to do with this, though) … and I’m always fascinated by how far the inalienable topic can stand so far away from the word it refers to :-\\


[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg475487#msg475487 date=1310879221]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=19064.msg475482#msg475482 date=1310878948]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg475467#msg475467 date=1310872889]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=19064.msg475466#msg475466 date=1310872578]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg474125#msg474125 date=1310594612]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg474102#msg474102 date=1310591012]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg473389#msg473389 date=1310429437]
“To dry something” (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Just noticed that this could also mean that ‘to clean something’ could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???
[/quote]

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D
[/quote]

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?
[/quote]

If you're cleaning up your camp in the middle of the plains you're not likely doing that with water.  ;)
[/quote]

Hmmmm, so would "yur" invariably require a solvent then?
[/quote]

The only definition I see in the dictionary or have ever heard is WASH. When does that not require SOME solvent?  ???[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Yes, but I also think that there can be a difference again. We have the official sentence

    Nga zene yivur pxìm fìskxirit. You must clean the wound frequently (which would require liquid of some sort)

But I think one could also say:

    Nì’awve, nga zene fìskxirit sleykivu laro. You must clean this wound first (before propper treatment; which would mean pool out leaves, sticks, dirt etc. you get the picture ;) )



msg=475671 | topic=19064 | board=99 | time=2011-07-17 18:10:11 | u=73

Re: Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg475569#msg475569 date=1310902616]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg475316#msg475316 date=1310841357]
My only issue is with the proclamation that sìn is WRONG for the context of "ON".

has many translations from Na’vi into English.

  Wan mì na’rìng. Hide IN the forest.
  Slele mì ora. Swim IN the lake.
  Srew mì tayo. Dance ON the plain.
  Uvan si mì ya. Play IN the air.
  Yom mì helku. Eat IN (INSIDE) the house.
  Oeri skxir a mì syokx tìsraw sengi. The wound ON my hand hurts.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I agree with you completely and added another official use of to the list.

I just noticed now, on one of the [url=https://picasaweb.google.com/lrapplegate/2011LNSeattleMeetup?authuser=0&feat=directlink#5628942909081879122]pictures[/url] from the exhibition, and I hope it aligns with your sense of the word sìn. There is the sentence oeri nga kllkxem sìn kxetse as ‘you’re standing on my tail’ (I don’t know how much Dr. Frommer had to do with this, though) … and I’m always fascinated by how far the inalienable topic can stand so far away from the word it refers to :-\\
[/quote]

That kiosk is canonical. K. Pawl wrote and recorded all of those audio samples (that one hears when one pushes the buttons) in conjunction with Brooks Peck (the curator of the exhibit). Sìn makes perfect sense to me here for this too.

It also makes sense that for a wounded hand we get . The wound is not separate from and just making contact/coming into contact with the skin. Presumably it penetrates the skin and involves the tissue layers immediately below. In my mind this parallels yom mì helku oeyä where the meal (while it's happening) is a part of the home. Uvan si mì na’rìng is the same deal.

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19064.msg475569#msg475569 date=1310902616]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19064.msg475487#msg475487 date=1310879221]
The only definition I see in the dictionary or have ever heard is WASH. When does that not require SOME solvent?  ???[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Yes, but I also think that there can be a difference again. We have the official sentence

     Nga zene yivur pxìm fìskxirit. You must clean the wound frequently (which would require liquid of some sort)

But I think one could also say:

     Nì’awve, nga zene fìskxirit sleykivu laro. You must clean this wound first (before propper treatment; which would mean pool out leaves, sticks, dirt etc. you get the picture ;) )

[/quote]

This is a good point. Yur is quite naturally translated here as ‘clean’, but I agree that some kind of liquid is strongly if not absolutely implied.




msg=484479 | topic=19515 | board=99 | time=2011-08-08 21:17:07 | u=1975

MOVED: Full soundtrack song translations

Tirea Aean

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=36]Official Soundtrack / Music[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=19514.0[/iurl]

(Another Soundtrack translation request)



msg=486539 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-15 20:32:34 | u=631

Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Ma frapo,

I asked Karyu Pawl about a confirmation on kurakx since I wanted to use it in a translation and realised that we still don’t know about its transitivity. It’s transitive, infixes 1,2 – no real surprise there … some of you might find the line from Eytukan, that didn’t make it into the movie more interesting though.


[quote=K. Pawl, 15 Aug]The way you’re using kurakx is fine. Yes, it’s transitive. The infix positions are 1,2. It appeared in a line I translated for Eytukan:

You speak truth. We must understand these Sky People if we are to drive them out.
Nìngay plltxe nga. Ayoengal fte Faysawtutet kivurakx, zene nì’awve ayfot tslivam.
[/quote]
[font=Georgia]On a follow-up on this sentence, he commented:

[quote=K. Pawl, 15 Aug]If I were translating it today I might say ayoengìri instead of ayoengal, but I think ayoengal is still OK.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]Btw, my translated bit was kurakx ayukit sì sìngäzìkit.


Also, after the little [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/recording-of-euroavatar-meeting-08-11-08-2011/]radio play[/url] he wrote:
[quote=K. Pawl, 10 Aug]Sìlpey oe, ’awa trr tsìyevun oe ne Toitsyìlantì [??--how have you been adapting Deutschland into Na’vi?] ziva’u fte ultxa sivi ayngahu nìwotx.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]and liked our suggestion of Toitslan (TO.i.tslan) for Germany.


[quote=K. Pawl, 15 Aug]I like Toitslan. Perfect. Please continue to use it.[/quote]



msg=486556 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-15 21:36:28 | u=7206

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

Kamean

Irayo nìtxan. :)



msg=486561 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-15 21:46:44 | u=21

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19640.msg486539#msg486539 date=1313440354][quote=K. Pawl, 15 Aug]If I were translating it today I might say ayoengìri instead of ayoengal, but I think ayoengal is still OK.[/quote]
[/quote]

EEEnteresting.



msg=486688 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-16 06:48:05 | u=73

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

Prrton

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19640.msg486539#msg486539 date=1313440354]
[font=Georgia]

Also, after the little [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/recording-of-euroavatar-meeting-08-11-08-2011/]radio play[/url] he wrote:
[quote=K. Pawl, 10 Aug]Sìlpey oe, ’awa trr tsìyevun oe ne Toitsyìlantì [??--how have you been adapting Deutschland into Na’vi?] ziva’u fte ultxa sivi ayngahu nìwotx.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]and liked our suggestion of Toitslan (TO.i.tslan) for Germany.


[quote=K. Pawl, 15 Aug]I like Toitslan. Perfect. Please continue to use it.[/quote]
[/quote]

I thought it was Toìtslan with Ì...???




msg=486701 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-16 08:54:27 | u=6582

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19640.msg486688#msg486688 date=1313477285]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19640.msg486539#msg486539 date=1313440354]
[font=Georgia]

Also, after the little [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/recording-of-euroavatar-meeting-08-11-08-2011/]radio play[/url] he wrote:
[quote=K. Pawl, 10 Aug]Sìlpey oe, ’awa trr tsìyevun oe ne Toitsyìlantì [??--how have you been adapting Deutschland into Na’vi?] ziva’u fte ultxa sivi ayngahu nìwotx.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]and liked our suggestion of Toitslan (TO.i.tslan) for Germany.


[quote=K. Pawl, 15 Aug]I like Toitslan. Perfect. Please continue to use it.[/quote]
[/quote]

I thought it was Toìtslan with Ì...???
[/quote]

Nìngay ke omum.  I wwould be happy either way.  In fact, I would even be comforable if ì and i were interchangeable for that word.




msg=486709 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-16 09:05:14 | u=6023

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

Txona Rolyu

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19640.msg486701#msg486701 date=1313484867]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19640.msg486688#msg486688 date=1313477285]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19640.msg486539#msg486539 date=1313440354]
[font=Georgia]

Also, after the little [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/recording-of-euroavatar-meeting-08-11-08-2011/]radio play[/url] he wrote:
[quote=K. Pawl, 10 Aug]Sìlpey oe, ’awa trr tsìyevun oe ne Toitsyìlantì [??--how have you been adapting Deutschland into Na’vi?] ziva’u fte ultxa sivi ayngahu nìwotx.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]and liked our suggestion of Toitslan (TO.i.tslan) for Germany.


[quote=K. Pawl, 15 Aug]I like Toitslan. Perfect. Please continue to use it.[/quote]
[/quote]

I thought it was Toìtslan with Ì...???
[/quote]

Nìngay ke omum.  I wwould be happy either way.  In fact, I would even be comforable if ì and i were interchangeable for that word.


[/quote]

Hm, fmawn a eltur tìtxen si :)

Also, I think the regular i would be better for ease of pronunciation.

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=486734 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-16 10:34:01 | u=985

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

Nyx

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=19640.msg486561#msg486561 date=1313444804]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19640.msg486539#msg486539 date=1313440354][quote=K. Pawl, 15 Aug]If I were translating it today I might say ayoengìri instead of ayoengal, but I think ayoengal is still OK.[/quote]
[/quote]

EEEnteresting.
[/quote]
I have a feeling this tells you something that went right over my head. Does it have something to do with how the [desc=sorry, forgot the technical term]do-er[/desc] is carried over to the next clause?



msg=486752 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-16 12:25:12 | u=6892

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

Sireayä mokri

Eltur tìtxen si, irayo.



msg=486772 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-16 14:09:54 | u=631

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

Plumps83

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=19640.msg486688#msg486688 date=1313477285]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19640.msg486539#msg486539 date=1313440354]
[font=Georgia]

Also, after the little [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/recording-of-euroavatar-meeting-08-11-08-2011/]radio play[/url] he wrote:
[quote=K. Pawl, 10 Aug]Sìlpey oe, ’awa trr tsìyevun oe ne Toitsyìlantì [??--how have you been adapting Deutschland into Na’vi?] ziva’u fte ultxa sivi ayngahu nìwotx.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]and liked our suggestion of Toitslan (TO.i.tslan) for Germany.


[quote=K. Pawl, 15 Aug]I like Toitslan. Perfect. Please continue to use it.[/quote]
[/quote]

I thought it was Toìtslan with Ì...???[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I think, we did use the form with ì within the Community in the beginning, but since [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/09/getting-to-know-you-part-2/]this blog post[/url] I always used toitsye rather than *toìtsye



msg=486794 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-16 14:50:36 | u=7142

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

Ftxavanga Txe′lan

Great ma Plumps, thank you. :D

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19640.msg486772#msg486772 date=1313503794][font=Georgia]I think, we did use the form with ì within the Community in the beginning, but since [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/09/getting-to-know-you-part-2/]this blog post[/url] I always used toitsye rather than *toìtsye[/quote]
Good to know as well! :o



msg=486888 | topic=19640 | board=99 | time=2011-08-16 20:35:25 | u=21

Re: Confirmation on »kurakx«, Eytukan line and Toitslan

wm.annis

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=19640.msg486734#msg486734 date=1313490841]
I have a feeling this tells you something that went right over my head. Does it have something to do with how the [desc=sorry, forgot the technical term]do-er[/desc] is carried over to the next clause?
[/quote]

Close.  Not the do-er, the topical.



msg=487559 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 20:04:50 | u=1975

confirmation on use of rangal

Ean Tirea

[quote]On Aug 18, 2011 2:25 PM, Paul Frommer wrote:

Kaltxì ma TA!
Rangal is intransitive, so Oe rangal tsnì is the better of the two. But if it's first person ("I wish that . . ."), the best way is just to use the adverb nìrangal.
Ngeyä 'upxaret oel toleiel. Irayo, ma 'eylan! Tì'eyngit fpasye' ye'rìn.
ta P.

[quote]
From: Tirea Aean <tirea@learnnavi.org>

Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:04:07 -0400
To: Paul Frommer
Subject: Fwd: rangal

real quick question:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message --------
Oel rangal futa..

OR

Oe rangal tsnì..??

Just was wondering

--TA
[/quote][/quote]



msg=487567 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 20:11:23 | u=6023

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Txona Rolyu

Squeeeeeee!!!! Fì'uri seiyi irayo nìtxan  :D Oe pamrel sarmeiyi nìfya'o ayawr fralo!

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=487574 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 20:22:59 | u=631

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Wonderful … now there’s just the question of what infixes to use :-\\ Wasn’t there something with either ‹ilv› or ‹irv› ???
But when to use what?



msg=487588 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 21:23:15 | u=1975

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19673.msg487574#msg487574 date=1313698979]
[font=Georgia]Wonderful … now there’s just the question of what infixes to use :-\\ Wasn’t there something with either ‹ilv› or ‹irv› ???
But when to use what?

[/quote]

you know, I remember that being in NiaN but i have never seen the canon source for that. Followup perhaps is in order.



msg=487590 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 21:51:23 | u=21

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

wm.annis

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19673.msg487588#msg487588 date=1313702595]you know, I remember that being in NiaN but i have never seen the canon source for that. Followup perhaps is in order.[/quote]

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#A_Collection]Canon ("A Collection")[/url].

I know [url=http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/horen-lenavi.pdf]my grammar[/url] is a little imposing, but it does have an index with clickable page numbers.



msg=487595 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 21:59:46 | u=7206

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Kamean

Irayo Pawlur. :)



msg=487605 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 22:28:12 | u=1975

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Ean Tirea

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=19673.msg487590#msg487590 date=1313704283]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19673.msg487588#msg487588 date=1313702595]you know, I remember that being in NiaN but i have never seen the canon source for that. Followup perhaps is in order.[/quote]

[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#A_Collection]Canon ("A Collection")[/url].

I know [url=http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/horen-lenavi.pdf]my grammar[/url] is a little imposing, but it does have an index with clickable page numbers.
[/quote]

oh thank you! I must bookmark Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi now...;D



msg=487619 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 22:52:57 | u=7600

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Saralyn te Späyu

[quote]But if it's first person ("I wish that . . ."), the best way is just to use the adverb nìrangal.[/quote]

I thought nìrangal was used to express a wish contrary to fact only. ???
And as always, irayo Pawlur; I was just struggling with rangal and tsnì vs. futa last night, actually. :-X



msg=487624 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 23:10:09 | u=1975

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Ean Tirea

arent ALL wishes contrary to fact? ???

the thing about all this that was new to me was the intransitivity of rangal and its proper use with tsnì. i knew that "nìrangal X" was a way to say "I wish X" or "if only X"



msg=487632 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 23:16:46 | u=7600

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Saralyn te Späyu

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19673.msg487624#msg487624 date=1313709009]
arent ALL wishes contrary to fact? ???

the thing about all this that was new to me was the intransitivity of rangal and its proper use with tsnì. i knew that "nìrangal X" was a way to say "I wish X" or "if only X"
[/quote]

"We wish you a merry Christmas and a happy New Year..."  When a thing hasn't happened yet, you can wish that it turn out well, kefyak? :-\\



msg=487653 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-18 23:51:31 | u=1975

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Ean Tirea

oh. the future. sure why not



msg=487705 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-19 05:26:56 | u=6582

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

lapo lesxkxawng

Thus translating nìrangal better as if only.




msg=487708 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-19 06:00:10 | u=631

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Plumps83

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=19673.msg487590#msg487590 date=1313704283]
I know [url=http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/horen-lenavi.pdf]my grammar[/url] is a little imposing, but it does have an index with clickable page numbers.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]Not imposing, my friend, very useful only ;)



msg=487770 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-19 12:28:47 | u=1975

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Ean Tirea

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19673.msg487705#msg487705 date=1313731616]
Thus translating nìrangal better as if only.


[/quote]

but Paul in the OP basically just said the best way to translate "I wish..." is "Nìrangal..."



msg=489475 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-25 01:39:13 | u=6750

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Amhul

Maybe he was just looking at the semantic meaning behind a wish? "if only" is just another way of saying "I wish" in some contexts... :-\\



msg=489525 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-25 06:44:10 | u=6105

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Tanri

I [desc=But as usually I don't remember from where I got that.]know[/desc] that nìrangal is to be used for the wishes that are impossible to achieve, from the viewpoint of the speaker. So the translation "If only..." looks best to me.



msg=490988 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-29 15:48:53 | u=1975

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=19673.msg489525#msg489525 date=1314254650]
I [desc=But as usually I don't remember from where I got that.]know[/desc] that nìrangal is to be used for the wishes that are impossible to achieve, from the viewpoint of the speaker. So the translation "If only..." looks best to me.

[/quote]

so by this, to say "I wish [event that takes place in the future]" since anything can happen, it is possible for the wish to be true or false... would that then be translated as "[desc=Oel new futa...]I want...[/desc]"?


[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#A_Collection]Canon source about nìrangal[/url] (as posted by wm.annis on the previous page):
[quote=Paul Frommer on March 14, 2010]
“I wish” or “Oh that . . .” is nìrangal (rangal ‘wish’ v.) followed by the present imperfective subjunctive –irv- for present counterfactuals or the present perfective subjunctive –ilv- for past counterfactuals.
[/quote]



msg=491008 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-29 17:58:47 | u=6105

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Tanri

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=19673.msg490988#msg490988 date=1314632933]
[quote author=Tanri link=topic=19673.msg489525#msg489525 date=1314254650]
I [desc=But as usually I don't remember from where I got that.]know[/desc] that nìrangal is to be used for the wishes that are impossible to achieve, from the viewpoint of the speaker. So the translation "If only..." looks best to me.
[/quote]
so by this, to say "I wish [event that takes place in the future]" since anything can happen, it is possible for the wish to be true or false... would that then be translated as "[desc=Oel new futa...]I want...[/desc]"?
[/quote]
I don't think so. "wish" and "want" are completely different verbs.
Agree with Karyu Pawl about counterfactuality of wishes, this is out of a question, but I remember from some source (beyond the boundaries of my memory), that little distinction between rangal and nìrangal, as in:
Oe rangal tsnì slivu tsulfätu lì’fyayä leNa’vi - "Wish I become master of the Na’vi language." - counterfactual, but can happen, at least in the distant future. :D
Nìrangal oe tsirvun fivrrfen Eywa’evengit. - "Wish I could visit Pandora" or "If only I could visit Pandora"- counterfactual as well, and clearly will never happen.
I will try to find details.

Edit:
Horen leNa’vi, 6.8.2:
[quote]
Nìrangal. Unrealizable wishes use the adverb nìrangal followed by the imperfective subjunctive to indicate an unattainable wish in the present, with the perfective subjunctive for an unattainable wish in the past. This can be expressed in English with phrases like, “if only” or “I wish,” nìrangal lirvu oeyä frrnenur lora sanhì I wish my children had pretty stars, nìrangal oel tslilvam nì’ul if only I had understood more.[/quote]
Navi in a Nutshell 2.8, 5.4.1:
[quote]
Tip:  Nìrangal is used to express unattainable wishes, or at least wishes that
considers unattainable (If only; oh that; etc) and only takes <ilv> or <irv>.  [/quote]
In our language summary (in Czech), the notice about nìrangal appeared long time before March 2011, from this time we started logging changes. It appears like something from ancient Na’vi. ;)



msg=491022 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-29 18:56:53 | u=1975

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

Ean Tirea

unattainable wishes... so what about the attainable ones? does an "attainable wish" exist? if so, then how does one convey that in Na'vi if the only ways to say I wish and if only are for unattainables?



msg=491195 | topic=19673 | board=99 | time=2011-08-30 08:44:52 | u=6582

Re: confirmation on use of rangal

lapo lesxkxawng

Nìawnomum, attainable wishes can be expressed with rangal.  Also, to quote NiaN:

[quote=NiaN Chapter 5.4][nobbc][The <iv> infix][/nobbc] is also used to express a wish or hope in the future: ‘<Iv>ong Na’vi! Let Na’vi bloom!
[/quote]

The <iv> infix can be another way to express attainable wishes, in a more hopeful manner.

If I'm not mistaken, nìrangal implies that an event is not taking place or impossible to occur in the future or present, knowing how it can only take <iv>, <ilv> or <irv>.

In English, "I wish" can be vague as it translates mainly as rangal oe or a little less accurately nìrangal, but "if only" is much less vague, translating only as nìrangal.




msg=493217 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-05 21:16:18 | u=21

Affective Obligation (zenke)

wm.annis

We know that the modal for "negative obligation" is zenke, as in nga zenke kivä you must not go ([url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon#Zenke][1][/url]).  It is pretty obviously derived from zene ke.  But I was curious how to cope with the 2nd position infixes, since I was uncomfortable with the idea that the ke element would get an infix.  So I asked.  Here's what Pawl said about it,

[quote=Karyu Pawl]
Zenke. Interesting question. I went back and forth on this one. But since the word is clearly from original *zeneke, there would probably also have been a form *zenängeke with a second-position infix. This one too would evolve to lose the e by syncope:

That is: *zenängeke > zenängke. [Stress remains in the first syllable.]

In the same way: *zolenängeke > zolenängke, *zayeneieke > zayeneike, etc.
[/quote]

Note, however, that with the ceremonial ‹uy› and suppositional ‹ats› the e does not go away, since the resulting syllable would be illegal, so zolenuyeke and zolenatseke.



msg=493219 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-05 21:20:18 | u=1550

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

Taras

Irayo :)



msg=493232 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-05 22:21:30 | u=631

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Most interesting!
I was wondering about that as well.

The list of verbs that behave outside ‘the norm’ gets bigger :P

Now, all I want is a confirmation on kenongtsakrr, ’ayefu ye … kxawm :P



msg=493240 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-05 22:50:43 | u=7206

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

Kamean

Irayo seiyi!  :)



msg=493244 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-05 22:56:38 | u=6032

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

Seze Mune

Way beyond my competence at the moment, but I know I will appreciate it in time. :D



msg=493362 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-06 13:24:53 | u=6892

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

Sireayä mokri

Sìltsan, I always like to see some exceptions to general rules :)



msg=494197 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 01:31:49 | u=430

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Seze Mune link=topic=19861.msg493244#msg493244 date=1315263398]
Way beyond my competence at the moment, but I know I will appreciate it in time. :D
[/quote]
Basically this boils down to a word that doesn't behave like we think it should.

In Na'vi the infixes mostly all are followed by vowels. However, in zeneke the infixes cause the word to lose an "e" resulting in the infixes being followed by a consonant. That's all that's really going on here, a word that has an unusual form. This is a good thing, natural languages have many unusual forms and words.

Edit: Fixed my silly mistake, that's what I get for skimming posts.



msg=494202 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 01:38:08 | u=6032

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

Seze Mune

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=19861.msg494197#msg494197 date=1315531909]
That's all that's really going on here, a "compound" word that has an unusual form. This is a good thing, natural languages have many unusual forms and words. [/quote]

A linguist's spice in life, kefyak? ;)



msg=494216 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 04:00:12 | u=6582

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

lapo lesxkxawng

Kinda related: how would one infix <ei> in pllngay?  I would expect a y after the <ei> since no Na'vi pseudovowel can stand alone.




msg=494229 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 04:37:24 | u=1550

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

Taras

[quote author='Oma Tirea link=topic=19861.msg494216#msg494216 date=1315540812]
Kinda related: how would one infix <ei> in pllngay?  I would expect a y after the <ei> since no Na'vi pseudovowel can stand alone.


[/quote]

Hmm.. interesting.. Probably you're right :)



msg=494254 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 07:13:11 | u=631

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

Plumps83

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=19861.msg494197#msg494197 date=1315531909]
Ke by itself normally can't take infixes but in zenke (which is obviously from two words, zene (must) and ke (not)) you have the infixes going in the second syllable (the "ke" part). That's all that's really going on here, a "compound" word that has an unusual form. This is a good thing, natural languages have many unusual forms and words.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Not quite, look closer. The really interesting part is that the infix of the second position go before the ke part, i.e. before a consonant and that is highly unusual in Na’vi :)



msg=494271 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 11:12:02 | u=985

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

Nyx

Very interesting. Thanks for the update



msg=494308 | topic=19861 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 14:32:18 | u=430

Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19861.msg494254#msg494254 date=1315552391]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=19861.msg494197#msg494197 date=1315531909]
Ke by itself normally can't take infixes but in zenke (which is obviously from two words, zene (must) and ke (not)) you have the infixes going in the second syllable (the "ke" part). That's all that's really going on here, a "compound" word that has an unusual form. This is a good thing, natural languages have many unusual forms and words.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Not quite, look closer. The really interesting part is that the infix of the second position go before the ke part, i.e. before a consonant and that is highly unusual in Na’vi :)
[/quote]

Oh, my mistake. I fixed my post.



msg=494129 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-08 22:48:43 | u=21

Topical Position

wm.annis

I asked him if my strong suspicion about the location of the topical was correct.

[quote=Karyu Pawl]Ngaru tìyawr. The topical comes at the head of its clause. Poetic syntax, of course, is little indication of the rules for ordinary prose. "I thee wed" and a million other examples in English. ...

I see where the impulse comes from to free the topical from clause-initial position, because on occasion I've been tempted to do that myself. But I've (almost) always found ways around the problem that don't violate that restriction.[/quote]



msg=494195 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 00:57:35 | u=1975

Re: Topical Position

Ean Tirea

Great news! We can lay tihs matter to rest, case closed. Irayo.



msg=494220 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 04:08:47 | u=6023

Re: Topical Position

Txona Rolyu

That's where I've always put it and that's where I'll continue to put it. Fmawnìri seiyi irayo :)

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=494224 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 04:17:17 | u=6582

Re: Topical Position

lapo lesxkxawng

What if there are several attributions to the topical noun, can those come before the topical?

N.K.: [desc=Thank you for the brave, mighty, gift]Tstwea stxeliri afkew, ngaru irayo seiyi[/desc]




msg=494228 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 04:35:54 | u=1550

Re: Topical Position

Taras

Of course, tì'efumì oeyä :) The member of clause is the word with all attributes, so in your example topical member is entire expression tstwea stxeliri afkew. Another example:

  [desc=it's topical member of main clause]Furia nga srung soli oer[/desc], oe seiyi ngaru irayo.



msg=494242 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 06:09:11 | u=7704

Re: Topical Position

radek.raszka

to be more precise: Tstewa stxelìri afkew, ngaru irayo seiyi  :)



msg=494255 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 07:16:46 | u=631

Re: Topical Position

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Thanks for the confirmation. That’s how I did it (after the model from what I’ve seen from the examples of K. Pawl).

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=19895.msg494242#msg494242 date=1315548551]
to be more precise: Tstewa stxelìri afkew, ngaru irayo seiyi  :)[/quote]
[font=Georgia]To be even more precise ;) it’s stxeliri because the base word is stxeli ;)



msg=494273 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 11:14:03 | u=985

Re: Topical Position

Nyx

I kind of got the idea that we knew this already, glad it's confirmed now :D



msg=494279 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 11:40:06 | u=7704

Re: Topical Position

radek.raszka

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=19895.msg494255#msg494255 date=1315552606]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=19895.msg494242#msg494242 date=1315548551]
to be more precise: Tstewa stxelìri afkew, ngaru irayo seiyi  :)[/quote]
[font=Georgia]To be even more precise ;) it’s stxeliri because the base word is stxeli ;)
[/quote]
Really, sorry for confusing  :(



msg=494293 | topic=19895 | board=99 | time=2011-09-09 13:40:07 | u=6892

Re: Topical Position

Sireayä mokri

I've been waiting for the confirmation on this for quite a while. Irayo!



msg=503115 | topic=20231 | board=99 | time=2011-10-13 11:55:50 | u=21

MOVED: Tsahìk (was: The Wiki Canon & Corpus)

wm.annis

This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].

[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=20229.0[/iurl]



msg=505184 | topic=20309 | board=99 | time=2011-10-21 22:45:42 | u=631

txìng and hum

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]So, I asked Karyu Pawl about these two since we didn’t know about their transitivity and any example sentences. Here’s what he replied:

[quote=K. Pawl, 18 Oct ’11]OK, about the words for 'leave':

Txìng is transitive: to leave or abandon something.

Hum is intransitive: to leave or depart. It can be used with ADPS like ftu, as you've indicated.

Here are some examples from the Avatar dialog in my files. (Not all the dialog I have made it into the movie.)


Leave the animals! Get outside! Run!

Txìng ayioangit!  Hum ne wrrpa!  Tul!
Leave  animals (obj.) depart  to outside  run


We gotta get outta here.

Ftu fìtseng zene hivum.
from this-place  must leave


Hope that helps.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I asked about the implications for also using txìng for places but I haven’t heard back from him yet.



msg=505186 | topic=20309 | board=99 | time=2011-10-21 22:47:25 | u=7206

Re: txìng and hum

Kamean

Sìltsana tìpawm.



msg=505214 | topic=20309 | board=99 | time=2011-10-22 00:50:56 | u=6023

Re: txìng and hum

Txona Rolyu

This makes me think of the "To 'hum' it may concern" thread that Tirea made a while ago lol. Sì'eyngìri seiyi irayo :)

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=505282 | topic=20309 | board=99 | time=2011-10-22 13:59:09 | u=6892

Re: txìng and hum

Sireayä mokri

Was just thinking about it yesterday, irayo :)



msg=505498 | topic=20309 | board=99 | time=2011-10-23 20:26:57 | u=985

Re: txìng and hum

Nyx

Nice ^^ thanks for the news. As for txìng for places, I hope it'd mean abandoning a place forever as opposed to just going away and coming back to it. Unless there's some more exotic way of dealing with this, because that'd be fun ^^



msg=505552 | topic=20309 | board=99 | time=2011-10-24 02:41:12 | u=6032

Re: txìng and hum

Seze Mune

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=20309.msg505184#msg505184 date=1319237142]
[font=Georgia]So, I asked Karyu Pawl about these two since we didn’t know about their transitivity and any example sentences. Here’s what he replied:

[quote=K. Pawl, 18 Oct ’11]OK, about the words for 'leave':

Txìng is transitive: to leave or abandon something.

Hum is intransitive: to leave or depart. It can be used with ADPS like ftu, as you've indicated.

Here are some examples from the Avatar dialog in my files. (Not all the dialog I have made it into the movie.)


Leave the animals! Get outside! Run!

Txìng ayioangit!  Hum ne wrrpa!  Tul!
Leave  animals (obj.) depart  to outside  run


We gotta get outta here.

Ftu fìtseng zene hivum.
from this-place  must leave


Hope that helps.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I asked about the implications for also using txìng for places but I haven’t heard back from him yet.
[/quote]

Txìng is transitive: to leave or abandon something.

But not someplace?  Is not abandoning Hometree abandoning something?  Yet if I'm saying I must leave Hometree, would I then say:

Ftu fìtseng zene hivum.
from [desc=Hometree]this-place[/desc]  must leave



msg=505556 | topic=20309 | board=99 | time=2011-10-24 03:20:39 | u=6582

Re: txìng and hum

lapo lesxkxawng

[quote author=Seze Mune link=topic=20309.msg505552#msg505552 date=1319424072]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=20309.msg505184#msg505184 date=1319237142]
[font=Georgia]So, I asked Karyu Pawl about these two since we didn’t know about their transitivity and any example sentences. Here’s what he replied:

[quote=K. Pawl, 18 Oct ’11]OK, about the words for 'leave':

Txìng is transitive: to leave or abandon something.

Hum is intransitive: to leave or depart. It can be used with ADPS like ftu, as you've indicated.

Here are some examples from the Avatar dialog in my files. (Not all the dialog I have made it into the movie.)


Leave the animals! Get outside! Run!

Txìng ayioangit!  Hum ne wrrpa!  Tul!
Leave  animals (obj.) depart  to outside  run


We gotta get outta here.

Ftu fìtseng zene hivum.
from this-place  must leave


Hope that helps.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I asked about the implications for also using txìng for places but I haven’t heard back from him yet.
[/quote]

Txìng is transitive: to leave or abandon something.

But not someplace?  Is not abandoning Hometree abandoning something?  Yet if I'm saying I must leave Hometree, would I then say:

Ftu fìtseng zene hivum.
from [desc=Hometree]this-place[/desc]  must leave

[/quote]

Good point ma Seze Mune.  You remind me of what Jake said in the movie:

[quote]
Ayngari zene hivum [nobbc][ftu fìtseng]![/nobbc]
[/quote]

Also Plumps' example reminds me of a quote from Eytukan:

[quote]
Frapo [nobbc][hum][/nobbc] ne wrrpa!
[/quote]

So it turns out we have fitting canonical examples :) Kop, irayo ma Plumps.




msg=519285 | topic=20862 | board=99 | time=2011-12-22 21:20:45 | u=2915

trap - säsyep

Passi

Kaltxì ma eylan

In the German section of the forum there is a Radio Play Group, which already plans the second part of the radio play.
Since the second part is named "Die Falle", i.e. "The trap", I had to ask Mr. Frommer for the word "trap".
Here is his response:


[quote author=Dr Frommer]OK: The noun 'trap' in Na'vi is säsyep. (sä-SYEP) It comes from the verb syep, 'trap.'[/quote]

If it is not yet known, then have much fun.  :D

Passi



msg=519301 | topic=20862 | board=99 | time=2011-12-22 22:14:54 | u=1746

Re: trap - säsyep

Carborundum

Makes sense. Thanks for telling us!



msg=519306 | topic=20862 | board=99 | time=2011-12-22 22:43:45 | u=7206

Re: trap - säsyep

Kamean

Irayo nìtxan ma Passi. :)



msg=519447 | topic=20862 | board=99 | time=2011-12-23 19:45:54 | u=3048

Re: trap - säsyep

Txepsiyu

[quote author=Passi link=topic=20862.msg519285#msg519285 date=1324588845]
Kaltxì ma eylan

In the German section of the forum there is a Radio Play Group, which already plans the second part of the radio play.
Since the second part is named "Die Falle", i.e. "The trap", I had to ask Mr. Frommer for the word "trap".
Here is his response:


[quote author=Dr Frommer]OK: The noun 'trap' in Na'vi is säsyep. (sä-SYEP) It comes from the verb syep, 'trap.'[/quote]

If it is not yet known, then have much fun.   :D

Passi
[/quote]

Adding to dictionary for next update.



msg=522244 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 00:31:00 | u=21

"I have something to say."

wm.annis

I asked K. Pawl about this matter due to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/do-you-have-something-for-me-(double-dative)/]another discussion[/url].  His reply,

[quote=Pawl]Yup. That's what Jake was supposed to say.

...

In this case, I don't see a problem with a "double dative." The poster who said these are most likely to occur where one dative is a possessive is probably right; I can't think of another straightforward kind of example. But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

(1) Lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
(2) Lu frapor aylì'u oeru.

are not the same.

"Fpi" isn't quite the same thing: it's used more in cases of "for the sake of, for the benefit of." So:

Tsakem soli oe fpi nga. 'I did it for you.' -- i.e., for your benefit.

Cf.:

Tsakem soli oe ngaru. 'I did it to you.'

Or:

(3) Stxelit fpole' oel ngaru. 'I sent the gift to you.'
(4) Stxelit fpole' oel ngafpi. 'I sent the gift for you.' -- i.e. I sent it to someone else for your sake. (Perhaps you were sick and not able to get out, so I sent it on your behalf.)



msg=522248 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 00:44:42 | u=7376

Re: "I have something to say."

Aquatiki

Thank you so much for asking this and then posting it!  :D



msg=522262 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 02:24:26 | u=4754

Re: "I have something to say."

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Fì'u lu eltur tìtxen si sì srung seri. - Irayo!



msg=522272 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 03:24:16 | u=1550

Re: "I have something to say."

Taras

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=20986.msg522244#msg522244 date=1325809860]
[quote=Pawl]Yup. That's what Jake was supposed to say.
But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

(1) Lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
(2) Lu frapor aylì'u oeru.

are not the same.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\\



msg=522280 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 04:06:59 | u=1975

Re: "I have something to say."

Ean Tirea

those preceeding me I second.



msg=522297 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 08:02:05 | u=7704

Re: "I have something to say."

radek.raszka

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=20986.msg522272#msg522272 date=1325820256]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=20986.msg522244#msg522244 date=1325809860]
[quote=Pawl]Yup. That's what Jake was supposed to say.
But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

(1) Lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
(2) Lu frapor aylì'u oeru.

are not the same.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\\

[/quote]
Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...



msg=522303 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 09:08:22 | u=6105

Re: "I have something to say."

Tanri

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=20986.msg522297#msg522297 date=1325836925]
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
[/quote]
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì’u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.



msg=522310 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 12:19:26 | u=1550

Re: "I have something to say."

Taras

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=20986.msg522303#msg522303 date=1325840902]
There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X)
[/quote]

Where did you get it? I don't remember.



msg=522311 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 12:20:25 | u=1975

Re: "I have something to say."

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=20986.msg522303#msg522303 date=1325840902]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=20986.msg522297#msg522297 date=1325836925]
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
[/quote]
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì’u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.
[/quote]

[quote=Frommer]ngaru lu fpom srak?[/quote]
[quote=Frommer]...do you have wellbeing?...[/quote]



msg=522312 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 12:26:27 | u=1550

Re: "I have something to say."

Taras

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=20986.msg522311#msg522311 date=1325852425]
[quote author=Tanri link=topic=20986.msg522303#msg522303 date=1325840902]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=20986.msg522297#msg522297 date=1325836925]
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
[/quote]
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì’u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.
[/quote]

[quote=Frommer]ngaru lu fpom srak?[/quote]
[quote=Frommer]...do you have wellbeing?...[/quote]
[/quote]

+1 ;) Also: Pori awngaru lu tìkin a nume nì'ul :)



msg=522316 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 13:28:58 | u=5657

Re: "I have something to say."

Ikran Ahiyìk

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=20986.msg522312#msg522312 date=1325852787]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=20986.msg522311#msg522311 date=1325852425]
[quote author=Tanri link=topic=20986.msg522303#msg522303 date=1325840902]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=20986.msg522297#msg522297 date=1325836925]
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
[/quote]
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì’u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.
[/quote]

[quote=Frommer]ngaru lu fpom srak?[/quote]
[quote=Frommer]...do you have wellbeing?...[/quote]
[/quote]

+1 ;) Also: Pori awngaru lu tìkin a nume nì'ul :)
[/quote]

Should we ask again about the a? Lu oeru aylì'u (a) frapor.. as you said and I think it makes a lot of sense.

For a free word order language the rule seems strange, and we need more clarification..

AFAIK Lu X-ru Y = X have Y and all the three can be in any position.

Don't know anything about the another dative... there should be some rules for us to know which one have the thing and which one is to be given something.



msg=522320 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 13:54:22 | u=2788

Re: "I have something to say."

Lance R. Casey

Regarding the position of lu in possessive constructions, [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon#Dative_.2B_copula_possessive]Frommer said[/url] this (emphasis mine):

[quote=K. Pawl]But contrary to the general principle of flexible word order, "have" constructions usually begin with the verb.[/quote]
As we have seen, it's not an inviolable rule, but rather, as a certain Captain would say, more of a guideline. ;)



msg=522341 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-06 17:07:43 | u=1975

Re: "I have something to say."

Ean Tirea

is it not clear enough that Frommer said:

[quote]
But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:
[/quote]

edit: also the thing that Lance R. Casey just said.



msg=522887 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-09 05:44:17 | u=6582

Re: "I have something to say."

lapo lesxkxawng

Sran word order can make a difference.  However that doesn't really explain this:

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=20986.msg522272#msg522272 date=1325820256]
what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\\
[/quote]

Who has words for who?




msg=522889 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-09 05:49:59 | u=1975

Re: "I have something to say."

Ean Tirea

it means an ambiguity solved by context. unless otherwise noted by pawl.



msg=523339 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-10 19:46:23 | u=430

Re: "I have something to say."

TehMightyPirate

I'd second what Tirea Aean said where I'm having trouble picturing a situation where confusion wouldn't be eliminated by context. Also, couldn't fwa also eliminate confusion if someone wanted to be perfectly clear?



msg=523341 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-10 19:53:47 | u=1975

Re: "I have something to say."

Ean Tirea

fwa? how so?


using "a" has been raised but even that can be confusing in some cases.



msg=523371 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-10 21:12:20 | u=430

Re: "I have something to say."

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=20986.msg523341#msg523341 date=1326225227]
fwa? how so?


using "a" has been raised but even that can be confusing in some cases.
[/quote]

Could one not say: "Oeru lu fwa lu aylì'u frapor"?

Ah, I see that Ikran Ahiyìk mentioned a as well. I missed that before.



msg=523386 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-10 22:10:54 | u=1975

Re: "I have something to say."

Ean Tirea

what you've said is:


I have this: everyone has words.



msg=523457 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-11 02:54:57 | u=5657

Re: "I have something to say."

Ikran Ahiyìk

I have something to say.
~ I have something which is for everyone.

Lu oeru aylì'u a frapor pum livu.

I may think of something like this, so now the thing underlined can be in any order within the line..



I've thought about this before, but I think Kemaweyan introduce it to us first.. ;)



msg=523462 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-11 03:19:35 | u=1550

Re: "I have something to say."

Taras

Emm.. I think pum means another instance of object, but if you're talking about the same thing - use fì'u or tsaw:

  Lu oeru aylì'u a frapor sa'u livu.

Ngian it also would mean "I have this: everyone has words". Probably we could not use lu in the second clause, but use plltxe:

  Lu oeru aylì'u a frapor (sat pivlltxe oe).



msg=523469 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-11 03:28:52 | u=1975

Re: "I have something to say."

Ean Tirea

[quote]Lu oeru aylì'u a frapor ([desc=Tsaylì'ut?]sat[/desc] pivlltxe oe[blue]l[/blue]).
[/quote]

This.



msg=523477 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-11 03:46:22 | u=1550

Re: "I have something to say."

Taras

Srane ulte irayo :) -l is correct here :)



msg=523489 | topic=20986 | board=99 | time=2012-01-11 04:22:11 | u=5657

Re: "I have something to say."

Ikran Ahiyìk

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=20986.msg523462#msg523462 date=1326251975]
Emm.. I think pum means another instance of object, but if you're talking about the same thing - use fì'u or tsaw:

  Lu oeru aylì'u a frapor sa'u livu.

Ngian it also would mean "I have this: everyone has words". Probably we could not use lu in the second clause, but use plltxe:

  Lu oeru aylì'u a frapor (sat pivlltxe oe).

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=20986.msg523469#msg523469 date=1326252532]
[quote]Lu oeru aylì'u a frapor ([desc=Tsaylì'ut?]sat[/desc] pivlltxe oe[blue]l[/blue]).
[/quote]

This.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Mengar lu tìyawr :)


Or another thought: it seems noun (phrase) + case marker without anything is used as adjective in the movie, like Fìtsenge lu awngeyä...



msg=525198 | topic=21124 | board=99 | time=2012-01-17 16:16:34 | u=631

open & close

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Just a short confirmation.

I asked K. Pawl how to say ‘I open/close my eyes’. I think this was briefly touched upon during the October 2010 meetup but never decided or decisively ruled on. This is what he responded:


[quote=K. Pawl, 17 Jan 2012]The usage is indeed:

Oeri menarir(u) piak/tstu si. ‘I open/close my eyes.’

You could also justify:

Oe menarir(u) piak/tstu si. Literally, that would be something like: I do opening to the eyes.

To say “His eyes opened,” you’d say:

Pori menari piak säpoli. This is the same pattern as win si / win säpi.
[/quote]


edit: typo, hìtxoa



msg=525201 | topic=21124 | board=99 | time=2012-01-17 16:33:50 | u=1975

Re: open & close

Ean Tirea

äp. fascinating



msg=525235 | topic=21124 | board=99 | time=2012-01-17 19:21:26 | u=7206

Re: open & close

Kamean

Irayo ma Plumps. :)



msg=525243 | topic=21124 | board=99 | time=2012-01-17 19:53:20 | u=7600

Re: open & close

Saralyn te Späyu

I can see and understand the reasoning behind all of the above, but why not:

peyä menari tstu säpoli

(too literal minded?)



msg=525252 | topic=21124 | board=99 | time=2012-01-17 20:19:55 | u=7704

Re: open & close

radek.raszka

[quote author=Alyara Arati link=topic=21124.msg525243#msg525243 date=1326830000]
I can see and understand the reasoning behind all of the above, but why not:

peyä menari tstu säpoli

(too literal minded?)
[/quote]
eyes fall into inalieable possesion, I think, so topical is best



msg=525253 | topic=21124 | board=99 | time=2012-01-17 20:25:14 | u=1975

Re: open & close

Ean Tirea

not "is best" as much as "is more idiomatic" as Pawl said



msg=525299 | topic=21124 | board=99 | time=2012-01-17 22:52:29 | u=1550

Re: open & close

Taras

[quote author=Alyara Arati link=topic=21124.msg525243#msg525243 date=1326830000]
I can see and understand the reasoning behind all of the above, but why not:

peyä menari tstu säpoli

(too literal minded?)
[/quote]

I think, it would be correct too. But not *Oe menarir(u) piak/tstu si. Tì'efumì oeyä, it's a good example how the word in topic could be the subject (oeri piak si) and express the possession (oeri menarir) in the same sentence. So genitive would be wrong here :)

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=21124.msg525198#msg525198 date=1326816994]
[font=Georgia]I asked K. Pawl how to say ‘I hopen/close my eyes’.
[/quote]

Ma Plumps, please fix this ;)



msg=536081 | topic=21604 | board=99 | time=2012-03-17 17:28:57 | u=21

a poetic license and a note on adposition position

wm.annis

A few days ago I asked Pawl about a possible variation possessive word order.  One consequence of this is that he made a very clear statement in support of something most of us have suspected but never had overt confirmation on, regarding suffixed adpositions (highlighted in maroon):

[quote=K. Pawl]So for ordinary usage I think we should star Gen Adp NP is a potential variant of Adp Gen NP and Adp NP Gen, or better, reserve it for poetry.

As for other variants, I think we all agree that Gen NP+Adp and NP+Adp Gen are both OK? oeyä tsyokxfa and tsyokxfa oeyä?

BTW, the reason a postpositive Adp can separate a N and Adj, as in fìtrrmì lestranten, is by analogy with N+case Adj.

For example, we have fìtrrä letsranten 'of this important day.' I thought of a postpositive Adp (well, at least ) as a quasi-case . . . and in fact in some languages (Finnish, say?) it would actually count as a case, right? So . . .

fìtrrä letsranten ~ fìtrrmì lestranten[/quote]

So, for the purposes of genitives and attributive adjectives with nouns, a suffixed adposition patterns like case.

The question I was asking about was the possibility of a variant word order.  I came up with it for a LEP sentence, but changed it back to something reasonable later.  We know that fa oeyä tsyokx and oeyä tsyokxfa both work for "with my hand."  I wondered if oeyä fa tsyokx might be possible.  It is, sort of...

[quote=K. Pawl]I'm happy to allow your word order proposal in poetry. As you noted, we already have examples of poetic or ceremonial w.o. that one wouldn't be likely to find in conversation.[/quote]



msg=536096 | topic=21604 | board=99 | time=2012-03-17 19:05:28 | u=7206

Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position

Kamean

Irayo ma wm.annis. :)



msg=536219 | topic=21604 | board=99 | time=2012-03-18 15:19:52 | u=1550

Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position

Taras

Irayo :)



msg=536927 | topic=21604 | board=99 | time=2012-03-22 22:43:06 | u=631

Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position

Plumps83

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=21604.msg536081#msg536081 date=1332005337]
The question I was asking about was the possibility of a variant word order.  I came up with it for a LEP sentence, but changed it back to something reasonable later.  We know that fa oeyä tsyokx and oeyä tsyokxfa both work for "with my hand."  I wondered if oeyä fa tsyokx might be possible.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Informative indeed and thanks for giving this piece of information to us…

Do you know, or what’s your ’en on the matter ;) how far we could stretch this in normal ‘prose’ style / conversation, to wit, could we say:

    fa oeyä tsawla tsyokx ???

Apart from another attributive adjective after tsyokx, this is the biggest possible span between ADP and NP that I can think of, kefyak? Would that still be allowed?



msg=536932 | topic=21604 | board=99 | time=2012-03-22 23:30:03 | u=21

Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=21604.msg536927#msg536927 date=1332456186]Do you know, or what’s your ’en on the matter ;) how far we could stretch this in normal ‘prose’ style / conversation, to wit, could we say:

     fa oeyä tsawla tsyokx ???[/quote]

This too me looks perfectly normal and acceptable.

[quote]Apart from another attributive adjective after tsyokx, this is the biggest possible span between ADP and NP that I can think of, kefyak? Would that still be allowed?[/quote]

Well, it's important to say that adpositions go with noun phrases — that's the noun along with any attributive adjectives or genitives.  In normal prose, they go before the entire phrase, however big, or are suffixed to the noun, case-like.  Very early in our Na'vi language history, I used this sentence at Pawl, which he accepted as elegant,

  Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx.

The possessive is separated from the noun by an attributive clause.  Even with something like that, I'd expect the prepositional use of an adposition to be fine, in front of ngeyä.



msg=537026 | topic=21604 | board=99 | time=2012-03-23 20:13:08 | u=631

Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Right, thanks … that’s interesting.
Once we reach this kind of style in conversation, I’ll be happy :D



msg=538838 | topic=21738 | board=99 | time=2012-04-05 17:37:59 | u=631

Concerning « tup »

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I couldn’t remember that we had an ‘official’ example how to use tup, and my dictionary told me ‘instead’ can be an adverb as well, so I was curious how to use it.

K. Pawl’s answer:


[quote=K. Pawl, April 5, 2012]About tup: Yes, it's a conjunction. I used it only once, I think, in the video game dialog:

Lam ngay oer, fo ka ì hilvan tup na’rìng.

'I bet they'll take the river rather than the forest.'

That's obviously short for: . . . fo kayä ìlä hilvan tup kayä ìlä na’rìng.

So tup conjoins clauses, which makes it a conjunction.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I think lam ngay oer is also interesting… Never seen this conversational bit before.



msg=538841 | topic=21738 | board=99 | time=2012-04-05 17:47:25 | u=1975

Re: Concerning « tup »

Ean Tirea

lam kangay oer ;D

This actually confirms my idea of tup thus far. Great to have a confirmation.

The dictionary currently has:

conj. instead of, rather than

which imo is a good definition, consistent with what Paul says here.

:)

*PS: "lam ngay oer" is an interesting usage of lam which is good to have canonized as it ... appears useful (pun intended??) ;D



msg=538845 | topic=21738 | board=99 | time=2012-04-05 18:26:26 | u=1550

Re: Concerning « tup »

Taras

Irayo, though I had no doubt :)



msg=538856 | topic=21738 | board=99 | time=2012-04-05 19:30:08 | u=5737

Re: Concerning « tup »

eanunil

Interesting, thanks for asking/sharing, ma Plumps! :)



msg=538858 | topic=21738 | board=99 | time=2012-04-05 19:35:27 | u=7206

Re: Concerning « tup »

Kamean

Irayo!



msg=538905 | topic=21738 | board=99 | time=2012-04-06 04:38:22 | u=6032

Re: Concerning « tup »

Seze Mune

[quote author=Kamean link=topic=21738.msg538858#msg538858 date=1333654527]
Irayo!
[/quote]

dìto  ;)



msg=541820 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-23 18:26:51 | u=1975

Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

Ean Tirea

Indeed it is. Today I talked to Pawl on Skype and asked him very quickly about the verb pey, and he confirmed that it is used intransitively, and with thing waited for in topical case, which is consistent with how he used it in the ma sempul message.

Apologies for no written quote.



msg=541821 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-23 18:43:31 | u=1550

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

Taras

Irayo nìtxan



msg=541828 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-23 19:06:24 | u=7206

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

Kamean

Irayo seiyi.



msg=541841 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-23 20:01:31 | u=5737

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

eanunil

Irayo ma Tirea :)



msg=541869 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-23 22:34:17 | u=6023

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

Txona Rolyu

I will act as a witness in leiu of a written statement as I was with Dr. Frommer when the Skype call was made ;)

-Txonä Rolyu



msg=541907 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-24 03:28:39 | u=7600

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

Saralyn te Späyu

Irayo.  And I see what you did there. ;D



msg=541908 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-24 03:32:42 | u=1975

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Alyara Arati link=topic=21896.msg541907#msg541907 date=1335238119]
Irayo.  And I see what you did there. ;D
[/quote]

ah so you caught the [desc=lame]pun[/desc]. ;D

Nìprrte' ma frapo. :)



msg=541921 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-24 07:07:25 | u=7704

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=21896.msg541820#msg541820 date=1335205611]
Indeed it is. Today I talked to Pawl on Skype and asked him very quickly about the verb pey, and he confirmed that it is used intransitively, and with thing waited for in topical case, which is consistent with how he used it in the ma sempul message.

Apologies for no written quote.
[/quote]
'ä'! Too unbelievable! What about this sentence then (comes from canon):

Oel new pivlltxe nìNa'vi mì oeyä letrra tìrey, slä oel tsun pivey trrit a ngal tayìng ayoer(u) aylì'ut nì'ul.
Sources:
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon[/url] (Quoted by Taronyu, January 25, 2010 )
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/frommerian-email/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/frommerian-email/[/url]

I always thought it can be used both transitively and intransitively. Can you consult this with Paul?



msg=541935 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-24 11:27:23 | u=1975

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=21896.msg541921#msg541921 date=1335251245]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=21896.msg541820#msg541820 date=1335205611]
Indeed it is. Today I talked to Pawl on Skype and asked him very quickly about the verb pey, and he confirmed that it is used intransitively, and with thing waited for in topical case, which is consistent with how he used it in the ma sempul message.

Apologies for no written quote.
[/quote]
'ä'! Too unbelievable! What about this sentence then (comes from canon):

Oel new pivlltxe nìNa'vi mì oeyä letrra tìrey, slä oel tsun pivey trrit a ngal tayìng ayoer(u) aylì'ut nì'ul.
Sources:
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon[/url] (Quoted by Taronyu, January 25, 2010 )
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/frommerian-email/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/frommerian-email/[/url]

I always thought it can be used both transitively and intransitively. Can you consult this with Paul?
[/quote]

I dont think the focus there was (in)transitivity of pey.

When I asked him on skype, he defìnitely said it's intransitive, and the X waits for Y construction is Yìri X pey. And he said "I haven't used it transitevly in the Canon, have I?" To which Txonä and I said, I don't think so, because I cant think of such a time. He wanted to make sure he had been consistent with what he had just said. Nice catch from a long time ago in the past. :) I didn't remember about that. I look at that and realize, That sentence is Taronyu's, and Pawl is correcting selected bits. Perhaps at the time it slipped hin mind that pey was not used that way. But later, when he wrote the Ma Sempul response letter, he used it himself in a way consistent with what he said on Skype yesterday.

I think it's already settled. ;)



msg=541978 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-24 18:05:36 | u=1550

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

Taras

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=21896.msg541921#msg541921 date=1335251245]
'ä'! Too unbelievable! What about this sentence then (comes from canon):

Oel new pivlltxe nìNa'vi mì oeyä letrra tìrey, slä oel tsun pivey trrit a ngal tayìng ayoer(u) aylì'ut nì'ul.
[/quote]

There is a lot of mistakes in this sentence:

  Oel new pivlltxe nìNa'vi mì oeyä letrra tìrey, slä oel tsun [desc=???]pivey trrit[/desc] a ngal tayìng ayoer(u) aylì'ut nì'ul.

So I think transitive pey is a mistake too :-\\



msg=542011 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-24 20:35:43 | u=4754

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

A post in the Dictionary thread suggests that this sentence is actually from Taronyu, and is not canon at all.



msg=542016 | topic=21896 | board=99 | time=2012-04-24 20:46:20 | u=7704

Re: Wait a minute. Pey is intransitive?

radek.raszka

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=21896.msg542011#msg542011 date=1335299743]
A post in the Dictionary thread suggests that this sentence is actually from Taronyu, and is not canon at all.
[/quote]
Yes, but Paul corrected it - that's probably why it is in canon



msg=544866 | topic=22136 | board=99 | time=2012-06-11 19:37:31 | u=132

New Words since Server?

Taronyu

Did we get any? Anyone keep track?



msg=544868 | topic=22136 | board=99 | time=2012-06-11 19:50:41 | u=21

Re: New Words since Server?

wm.annis

[quote author=Skxawng Makto link=topic=22136.msg544866#msg544866 date=1339443451]
Did we get any?[/quote]

Nope.



msg=544879 | topic=22136 | board=99 | time=2012-06-11 20:15:42 | u=7704

Re: New Words since Server?

radek.raszka

Well, there is big silence for more than two months...



msg=545057 | topic=22136 | board=99 | time=2012-06-12 14:47:35 | u=0

Re: New Words since Server?

Swoka Swizaw

I had checked everyday for Na'viteri updates away from LearnNa'vi. Going through the dictionary, yesterday, I found a word I didn't recognize: tsray, village. I thought it had popped out of nowhere. Could someone provide when it came in?



msg=545080 | topic=22136 | board=99 | time=2012-06-12 16:05:04 | u=631

Re: New Words since Server?

Plumps83

[quote author=Temsko link=topic=22136.msg545057#msg545057 date=1339512455]
I had checked everyday for Na'viteri updates away from LearnNa'vi. Going through the dictionary, yesterday, I found a word I didn't recognize: tsray, village. I thought it had popped out of nowhere. Could someone provide when it came in?[/quote]
[font=Georgia]It has actually been around for quite a while … [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/landscape-words/msg161645/#msg161645]28 March 2010[/url] ;)



msg=545217 | topic=22136 | board=99 | time=2012-06-13 14:04:15 | u=430

Re: New Words since Server?

TehMightyPirate

I was actually wondering about this. Did anyone inform Karyu Pawl of our server troubles? I imagine if there were any new words it would have been through email.



msg=545224 | topic=22136 | board=99 | time=2012-06-13 15:01:31 | u=0

Re: New Words since Server?

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=22136.msg545080#msg545080 date=1339517104]
[quote author=Temsko link=topic=22136.msg545057#msg545057 date=1339512455]
I had checked everyday for Na'viteri updates away from LearnNa'vi. Going through the dictionary, yesterday, I found a word I didn't recognize: tsray, village. I thought it had popped out of nowhere. Could someone provide when it came in?[/quote]
[font=Georgia]It has actually been around for quite a while … [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/landscape-words/msg161645/#msg161645]28 March 2010[/url] ;)
[/quote]

Irayo...ma Plumps. It looked like it stood out from other words like it were NEW.

I do think that the server being DOWN and Frommer's absence (which is not all too uncommon) do present a reason for me to ask what I feel is a reasonable question: Is Na'vi dead if Frommer were gone?

Is there a person/or persons he might trust to inherit Na'vi?



msg=545244 | topic=22136 | board=99 | time=2012-06-13 17:35:09 | u=430

Re: New Words since Server?

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Temsko link=topic=22136.msg545224#msg545224 date=1339599691]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=22136.msg545080#msg545080 date=1339517104]
[quote author=Temsko link=topic=22136.msg545057#msg545057 date=1339512455]
I had checked everyday for Na'viteri updates away from LearnNa'vi. Going through the dictionary, yesterday, I found a word I didn't recognize: tsray, village. I thought it had popped out of nowhere. Could someone provide when it came in?[/quote]
[font=Georgia]It has actually been around for quite a while … [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/landscape-words/msg161645/#msg161645]28 March 2010[/url] ;)
[/quote]

Irayo...ma Plumps. It looked like it stood out from other words like it were NEW.

I do think that the server being DOWN and Frommer's absence (which is not all too uncommon) do present a reason for me to ask what I feel is a reasonable question: Is Na'vi dead if Frommer were gone?

Is there a person/or persons he might trust to inherit Na'vi?
[/quote]

Will Na'vi be dead? Of course not.
Is there someone he could trust to continue language development? Maybe.

But these are questions best left for another topic.



msg=547127 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-24 20:13:15 | u=1975

New word - tsawlultxa

Ean Tirea

A message from our good friend Kì'eyawn (correct me if I'm wrong about the name):

[quote]
Ma Tirea Aean,

I thought you should know Karyu Pawl gave us a new word in the context of his talk this morning: tsawlultxa (accent on last syllable) for "conference". Spread the word!
[/quote]




msg=547129 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-24 20:17:10 | u=1550

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Taras

Txantsan, irayo :)

Though I'd like tsawltxa :) awlul ke sunu oer :(



msg=547143 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-24 20:33:56 | u=7206

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Kamean

I prefer Kemaweyan's variant. :)



msg=547220 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-25 06:38:11 | u=4754

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Ah, we now have a Na'vi word to describe the soon-to-come AvatarMeet!



msg=547483 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-27 02:24:07 | u=0

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Swoka Swizaw

And what is the pronunciation of this word? I have presented issue with the way that some people pronounce certain words...

In the dictionary, this word is pronounced [tsawl.ul.'txa]. I have always had reason to believe that a word like this should be [tsaw.lul.'txa]. Can someone please show me why so many think the first example is correct? Another example, for anyone who needs it is: nì'i'a, [nì.''i'.a]. Why is it NOT [nì.''i.'a]? Can anyone give evidence that Frommer has given on this?



msg=547501 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-27 06:43:56 | u=631

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I think this is, because it’s a compound in which every element is distinctively present … so one would say tsawla ultxa > tsawl-ultxa > tsawlultxa …
Again, in fast speech this would prabably merge so completely together that it will sound like tsaw.lul.txa, you are right in that.


[quote author=Temsko link=topic=22243.msg547483#msg547483 date=1340763847]
Another example, for anyone who needs it is: nì'i'a, [nì.''i'.a]. Why is it NOT [nì.''i.'a]? Can anyone give evidence that Frommer has given on this?[/quote]
[font=Georgia]I finally found where it was stated. Look at the first time [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/karyuru-frakrr-irayo-si-ko!/msg175113/#msg175113]’i’a was introduced[/url]



msg=547515 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-27 07:51:42 | u=7704

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

radek.raszka

Well, clear rules how to break any word into syllables we are missing.



msg=547521 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-27 09:24:59 | u=0

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=22243.msg547501#msg547501 date=1340779436]
[font=Georgia]I finally found where it was stated. Look at the first time [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/karyuru-frakrr-irayo-si-ko!/msg175113/#msg175113]’i’a was introduced[/url]
[/quote]
Yes...and on there is the word 'engeng, separated into syllables ['eng.eng]. Why not ['e.ngeng]? I think it was a mistake, amongst others presented. I also feel that many look at kxangangang for a universal example here, which has a structure of [kxang.ang.ang]. I recall Frommer had said that this was the only word that utilized this particular form.

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=22243.msg547515#msg547515 date=1340783502]
Well, clear rules how to break any word into syllables we are missing.
[/quote]
I think it's pretty clear (but not Frommer-canon, regardless I thought it was)...

A syllable is (f, s, ts)(C)V(C). A syllable can be a single vowel, but will assimilate with a consonant if one precedes it, like in nì'i'a, [nì.'i.'a]. Would "fun", tì'o', be [tì'.o']? I don't think so, but would be [tì.'o']. I imagine there was a time when everyone knew this. Can anyone find that Frommer reference?



msg=547527 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-27 11:01:54 | u=631

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]And why is that so important, I wonder :-\\

It was hinted at in the [url=http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1977]Language Log[/url] and is stated in Horen § 2.1.4.2

Your example of tì’o’ is not logical because the base word is ’o’ here … if you make this into an attributive it becomes ’o’a or a’o’ both retaining, I’d say, the base word as ’o’.a and a.’o’

Again, I stress that in a spoken language this is of fairly minor importance. Stress and in case of verbs infix positions are far more important. And even in writing (unless you want to develop a program that does automatic syllabification…) I think it doesn’t matter.



msg=547534 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-27 12:08:07 | u=8643

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Yawne Zizeite

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=22243.msg547527#msg547527 date=1340794914]Again, I stress that in a spoken language this is of fairly minor importance. Stress and in case of verbs infix positions are far more important. And even in writing (unless you want to develop a program that does automatic syllabification…) I think it doesn’t matter.
[/quote]

Actually, automatic syllabification is important for good automatic hyphenation. (Thanks to the vagaries of the Na'vi alphabet, it would also be helpful for a special-purpose sorting program; truly correct Na'vi sorting cannot be integrated into ordinary word processing programs.)



msg=547559 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-27 15:16:11 | u=0

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=22243.msg547527#msg547527 date=1340794914]
[font=Georgia]And why is that so important, I wonder :-\\

[/quote]
To be honest, I am genuinely anal-retentive that way. And, to be sure, I am not trying to be a bother. I suppose I just like the uniformity of the [(f,s,ts)(C)V(C).(f,s,ts)(C)V(C)] word structure. If the first syllable in that example form ends in a consonant and the second a vowel, is it not logical that they should fuse to make a CV(C) syllable? I defer to Frommer's rule that a word ending in a consonant that is, then, followed by a vowel fuses with that vowel.

Like in the sentence: Fìtrr, oe ke tsun ivängeyk tsampongut; nì'it 'efu spxin.
I imagine a uniform syllabification would look like this: [fì.'trr.'o.e.ke.tsu.ni.vä.'ngeyk.tsam.'po.ngut.nì.''it.''e.fu.spxin]

I am certain I am being a bit of a pest, oer txoa livu, but I do feel passionate about this, about Na'vi. 8)



msg=547588 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-27 17:21:30 | u=631

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Plumps83

[quote author=Temsko link=topic=22243.msg547559#msg547559 date=1340810171]
I am certain I am being a bit of a pest, oer txoa livu, but I do feel passionate about this, about Na'vi. 8)[/quote]

[font=Georgia] ;D nothing wrong with that ;) I know the feeling because in some instances and with some issues I feel the same



msg=547598 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-27 19:15:18 | u=7704

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

radek.raszka

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=22243.msg547527#msg547527 date=1340794914]
[font=Georgia]And why is that so important, I wonder :-\\
[/quote]
This :) I can imagine just two cases where syllabification is needed to know:
- infix positions. No problem - it is located always before vowel
- when after putting infix into verb you get prohibited syllable: infamous zenke + <ats>, [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/beginners/how-words-are-syllabified/]see this thread[/url]. Although "tske" is allowed, "zenatske" is prohibited. (pak! But I learned how to live with this rule ;D)



msg=547641 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-28 02:15:53 | u=4754

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Didn't I read someplace that Na'vi was for the most part 'maximal onset' in terms of syllabification?



msg=547649 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-28 03:34:17 | u=8643

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

Yawne Zizeite

That's what the dictionary uses to syllabify words whose syllabification has never been stated.



msg=547654 | topic=22243 | board=99 | time=2012-06-28 04:23:30 | u=4754

Re: New word - tsawlultxa

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I strongly suspect the syllabification in the dictionary has all been hand entered.



msg=550568 | topic=22388 | board=99 | time=2012-07-22 18:01:59 | u=11067

Version 12.8 of the Official Na'vi dictionnary

NaVi_Quebec

New words and phrases are added to the Official Na'vi dictionnary. New dictionary version is 12.8  !



msg=550570 | topic=22388 | board=99 | time=2012-07-22 18:08:39 | u=9677

Re: Version 12.8 of the Official Na'vi dictionnary

taylorcraftbc65

A hotlink to it please?



msg=550572 | topic=22388 | board=99 | time=2012-07-22 18:13:01 | u=1975

Re: Version 12.8 of the Official Na'vi dictionnary

Ean Tirea

Please if you want to know about when the dictionary updates, read the official dictionary thread, and I recommend putting it on notify. :)

This thread imo doesnt belong here.

Official Dictionary Thread: [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/website-info/the-dictionary-part-ii/msg550338/#msg550338]http://forum.learnnavi.org/website-info/the-dictionary-part-ii/msg550338/#msg550338[/url]

Keep an eye out for Toruk Makto there. ;)



msg=550577 | topic=22388 | board=99 | time=2012-07-22 18:28:29 | u=9677

Re: Version 12.8 of the Official Na'vi dictionnary

taylorcraftbc65

Don't get mad at ME Tirea, I thought this WAS an "official" thread.



msg=550583 | topic=22388 | board=99 | time=2012-07-22 18:38:51 | u=1975

Re: Version 12.8 of the Official Na'vi dictionnary

Ean Tirea

OH NO! ;D I am totally not angry at all. :) I just noticed a few misunderstandings.

1.) This forum board is for if you have spoken to Paul Frommer and have received brand new grammar or vocabulary, you post it here to let the community know about it so we can add it to our documents and wiki.

2.) Thanks for this thread because as I may have feared, the Official Dictionary thread seems to be "hidden" and not in an obvious place. Now, more people know about where it is. In the /website-info board. :)



msg=550642 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-22 22:40:24 | u=3048

New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Txepsiyu

Paul introduced 4 new words:

swoa - n. - Intoxicating beverage, or "spirits"
rou - vin. - Be, or get drunk
pamrelvi - n. - letter (phonetic symbol)
snapamrelvi - n. - alphabet



msg=550644 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-22 22:50:38 | u=9677

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

taylorcraftbc65

By "Spirits", does he mean the kind of spirits that you drink, the kind that "Haunt", or both??
Niri Te



msg=550649 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-22 23:07:45 | u=631

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Great :)
:-\\ I’m very courious what kind of beginners lesson that is/was where something like this comes up ;D

Thanks for sharing! I see that you’ve indicated the stress in the dictionary :) txantsan.

Ma Niri Te … given the first definition I think it’s the one you drink. It’s just something that we would use. The Na’vi would probably not have a word for ‘alcoholic drinks’ – that’s the closest to it.

I would like to know whether it’s countable.



msg=550688 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 03:58:08 | u=1975

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Ean Tirea

stress data rutxe?



msg=550689 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 04:00:54 | u=6518

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

puvomun

[quote author=Niri Te link=topic=22395.msg550644#msg550644 date=1342997438]
By "Spirits", does he mean the kind of spirits that you drink, the kind that "Haunt", or both??
Niri Te
[/quote]

It says "Intoxicating beverage", so it means the drinks. Alcohol, booze.



msg=550692 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 04:12:17 | u=6032

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Seze Mune

[quote author=Niri Te link=topic=22395.msg550644#msg550644 date=1342997438]
By "Spirits", does he mean the kind of spirits that you drink, the kind that "Haunt", or both??
Niri Te
[/quote]

We already have a word for the non-beverage kind of spirit: tirea



msg=550695 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 04:13:29 | u=1975

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Ean Tirea

ello! :D



msg=550703 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 06:51:29 | u=1550

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Taras

Txantsan! Irayo ;)



msg=550731 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 12:54:55 | u=9677

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

taylorcraftbc65

[quote author=Seze Mune link=topic=22395.msg550692#msg550692 date=1343016737]
[quote author=Niri Te link=topic=22395.msg550644#msg550644 date=1342997438]
By "Spirits", does he mean the kind of spirits that you drink, the kind that "Haunt", or both??
Niri Te
[/quote]

We already have a word for the non-beverage kind of spirit: tirea
[/quote]

I know that, but is that word for Spirit, as in the phrase "We defend this place in the SPIRIT of those who defended it years ago", or does it Mean a single person's ACTUAL SPIRIT??
I thought the word Tirea was to mean (as in his name) someone who has the "Spirit" of a true Na'vi, not someone who has the ACTUAL SPIRIT of one particular Na'vi, (Spirit possessed?).
Niri Te



msg=550733 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 14:02:11 | u=6032

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Seze Mune

[quote author=Niri Te link=topic=22395.msg550731#msg550731 date=1343048095]

I know that, but is that word for Spirit, as in the phrase "We defend this place in the SPIRIT of those who defended it years ago", or does it Mean a single person's ACTUAL SPIRIT??
I thought the word Tirea was to mean (as in his name) someone who has the "Spirit" of a true Na'vi, not someone who has the ACTUAL SPIRIT of one particular Na'vi, (Spirit possessed?).
Niri Te
[/quote]

Good questions.  Lacking other input, I would use tirea for both meanings:  (1) Oe kem si nìtirea Na'viyä (I act in the spirit (way) of a Na'vi), or (2) Peyä tirea lu Eywamì (His/her spirit is with Eywa). 

Perhaps Tirea Aean or Blue Elf will correct my Na'vi here, or even give their opinion on your questions?



msg=550740 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 16:59:56 | u=9677

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

taylorcraftbc65

Irayo ma Seze, you gave me two good ways to phrase the two different meanings of that word. Unless Tirea Aean Paul Kater, or Blue Elf say otherwise, THAT is how I will construct sentences concerning those two meanings.
Niri Te



msg=550753 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 18:42:02 | u=1975

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Ean Tirea

I don't think anyone knows EXACTLY, but for now I'm with Seze Mune. I could be wrong.



msg=550765 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 19:22:25 | u=7206

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Kamean

Txantsan! :D



msg=550768 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-23 19:44:26 | u=7704

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

radek.raszka

[quote author=Seze Mune link=topic=22395.msg550733#msg550733 date=1343052131]
Good questions.  Lacking other input, I would use tirea for both meanings:  (1) Oe kem si nìtirea Na'viyä (I act in the spirit (way) of a Na'vi), or (2) Peyä tirea lu Eywamì (His/her spirit is with Eywa). 

Perhaps Tirea Aean or Blue Elf will correct my Na'vi here, or even give their opinion on your questions?
[/quote]
Tirea can be used at least in second case:
Ngari hu Eywa salew tirea, tokx 'ì'awn fte slivu Na'viyä hapxì (Your spirit goes to Eywa, body remains to become part of People)
But to me it doesn't appears to be wrong use it also in the first meaning.
What is less clear is difference between tirea and vitra; in my language they have both the same meaning (spirit has wider usage)



msg=550850 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-24 05:20:51 | u=4754

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Very good question, ma Blue Elf!

There's the answer, but I don't guarantee you will understand, or even like the answer. I was very tired whan I wrote this, so I am not sure I worded it well.

In English teachings in a Christian worldview, there is a definite distinction between 'soul (vitra) and 'spirit' (tirea). The spirit is an ever-existing part of your being that takes the same kind of form as God. It also means the embodiment of all existing entities that do not have a physical body. Thus, Blue Elf is correct in  stating that tirea term has a wider range of meaning that vitra.

Vitra refers to a specific part of our bring that makes us who we are. It,too exists apart from the physical entity that makes up a physical living thing. I think it gives the spirit living character, and is much more closely tied with the spirit than the body. The other way is to think of these entities is like a radio signal. The spirit  is the carrier wave, and the soul is the information modulating the carrier. The soul and spirit are meant to always be together, yet remain separate entities. There is some significance as to why this distinction exists at all, but its origins are not really a subject to discourse on here. Suffice to say that there is a meaning for, and a use of, both of these words.



msg=550851 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-24 05:42:41 | u=5290

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Kunsìp Makto

Don't forget about Dr. Frommer's mention of the informal word for Palulukan--Palukan. *Mentioned at the clan dinner*



msg=550853 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-24 05:52:53 | u=4754

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=DJ Makto link=topic=22395.msg550851#msg550851 date=1343108561]
Don't forget about Dr. Frommer's mention of the informal word for Palulukan--Palukan. *Mentioned at the clan dinner*
[/quote]


This term is actually been around for quite some time-- well over a year, at least. However, I don't believe it ever made it into the dictionary. Update: It is indeed in the dictionary, as a sub-entry under Palulukan.



msg=550862 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-24 07:22:38 | u=7704

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

radek.raszka

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=22395.msg550850#msg550850 date=1343107251]
Very good question, ma Blue Elf!

There's the answer, but I don't guarantee you will understand, or even like the answer. I was very tired whan I wrote this, so I am not sure I worded it well.

In English teachings in a Christian worldview, there is a definite distinction between 'soul (vitra) and 'spirit' (tirea). The spirit is an ever-existing part of your being that takes the same kind of form as God. It also means the embodiment of all existing entities that do not have a physical body. Thus, Blue Elf is correct in  stating that tirea term has a wider range of meaning that vitra.

Vitra refers to a specific part of our bring that makes us who we are. It,too exists apart from the physical entity that makes up a physical living thing. I think it gives the spirit living character, and is much more closely tied with the spirit than the body. The other way is to think of these entities is like a radio signal. The spirit  is the carrier wave, and the soul is the information modulating the carrier. The soul and spirit are meant to always be together, yet remain separate entities. There is some significance as to why this distinction exists at all, but its origins are not really a subject to discourse on here. Suffice to say that there is a meaning for, and a use of, both of these words.
[/quote]
Very good explanation! I think I understand it, analogy with radio signal is very interesting and helpful.



msg=551291 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-26 18:33:21 | u=73

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Prrton


Swoa is a liquid like pay, so not countable. I am under the impression that naer is countable, so naer swoayä would give you a countable beverage that is intoxicating. It seems it would be useful to have an adjective, leswoa, for "intoxicating". That should probably be proposed through the LEP.




msg=551294 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-26 18:51:48 | u=7704

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

radek.raszka

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=22395.msg551291#msg551291 date=1343327601]

Swoa is a liquid like pay, so not countable. I am under the impression that naer is countable, so naer swoayä would give you a countable beverage that is intoxicating. It seems it would be useful to have an adjective, leswoa, for "intoxicating". That should probably be proposed through the LEP.
[/quote]
This leads to discussion about le- productivity. In dictionary it is located in main area (le–: [lE] PF adjective deriving affix), not under Inflections chapter, what is interesting and one can think it is fully productive....



msg=551300 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-26 18:59:32 | u=73

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Prrton

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=22395.msg551294#msg551294 date=1343328708]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=22395.msg551291#msg551291 date=1343327601]

Swoa is a liquid like pay, so not countable. I am under the impression that naer is countable, so naer swoayä would give you a countable beverage that is intoxicating. It seems it would be useful to have an adjective, leswoa, for "intoxicating". That should probably be proposed through the LEP.
[/quote]
This leads to discussion about le- productivity. In dictionary it is located in main area (le–: [lE] PF adjective deriving affix), not under Inflections chapter, what is interesting and one can think it is fully productive....
[/quote]

But it's not fully productive. Does leswoa mean "intoxicating" (focus on the effect on people) or "alcoholic" (focus on the way the beverage is created chemically)?

That's why le- adjectives must be canonized by K. Pawl for their ultimate definitions in the dictionary. If we coin them ad hoc for ourselves we will end up being "close" for he meaning in most cases, but not precise.



msg=551390 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 02:06:41 | u=4754

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

That brings up an interesting point.

When we think of something that is 'intoxicating', we are usually thinking of an alcoholic beverage. But perhaps there is something in the Pandoran environment that is 'intoxicating' in place of, or in addition to, alcohol. Thus in this case, 'intoxicating' is IMHO a very adequate definition of swoa.



msg=551433 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 07:46:07 | u=7704

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

radek.raszka

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=22395.msg551390#msg551390 date=1343354801]
That brings up an interesting point.

When we think of something that is 'intoxicating', we are usually thinking of an alcoholic beverage. But perhaps there is something in the Pandoran environment that is 'intoxicating' in place of, or in addition to, alcohol. Thus in this case, 'intoxicating' is IMHO a very adequate definition of swoa.
[/quote]
As for "swoa", my first thinking is about uniltaron and using eltungawng during this ceremony



msg=551437 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 08:41:04 | u=4754

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=22395.msg551433#msg551433 date=1343375167]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=22395.msg551390#msg551390 date=1343354801]
That brings up an interesting point.

When we think of something that is 'intoxicating', we are usually thinking of an alcoholic beverage. But perhaps there is something in the Pandoran environment that is 'intoxicating' in place of, or in addition to, alcohol. Thus in this case, 'intoxicating' is IMHO a very adequate definition of swoa.
[/quote]
As for "swoa", my first thinking is about uniltaron and using eltungawng during this ceremony
[/quote]

That could be permanently intoxicating.....



msg=551479 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 17:02:17 | u=73

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Prrton


Keep in mind that swoa is a pragmatic cognate for "alcohol". I'm not sure the etymology of the word is clear.

In the final dialogue from Seattle:

A. Sunu ngaru pxir srak?
B. Ngaytxoa, ke tsun oe swoat niväk.
 Oeri lu swoa fnetxum.
A. Tslolam. Nga tsun niväk wewa payit. Ulte ke rayou!
B. Tseiun tivam.

Pxir lu fneswoa. Beer is a pragmatic cognate to a type of swoa.

Again, I don't know if the creation and drinking of swoa came out of a ceremonial context or not, but as evidenced by unrendered footage from the film, when Na’vi or humans driving avatars drink swoa, they can rou (= get drunk).




msg=551611 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-28 15:17:18 | u=6032

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Seze Mune

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=22395.msg551390#msg551390 date=1343354801]
That brings up an interesting point.

When we think of something that is 'intoxicating', we are usually thinking of an alcoholic beverage. But perhaps there is something in the Pandoran environment that is 'intoxicating' in place of, or in addition to, alcohol. Thus in this case, 'intoxicating' is IMHO a very adequate definition of swoa.
[/quote]

One *could* use 'intoxicating' in a figurative sense as well:  Her [desc=or presence]scent [/desc]was intoxicating....

No need to worry about that right now if we really DON'T have a word for 'intoxicating', kefyak?



msg=551624 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-28 16:04:45 | u=73

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Prrton


There is always reykou. ;-)




msg=551675 | topic=22395 | board=99 | time=2012-07-28 19:56:52 | u=1975

Re: New words from the 2012 AvatarMeet Na'vi class

Ean Tirea

Which is a causitive verb not an adjective :)



msg=551034 | topic=22424 | board=99 | time=2012-07-25 10:17:27 | u=631

Little confirmation - tìtxen si

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Going through the dictionary I was made aware by Blue Elf that dict-navi.com had tìtxen si listed while the main dictionary does not. I derived that from our well-known eltur tìtxen si.
So, I asked K. Pawl about it … and the great guy that he is he answered promptly :)


[quote=K. Pawl, 25 July 2012]About tìtxen si: Good catch. It should indeed be in the dictionary. And everything you've guessed about it is correct. It's a regular si-verb construction and your example sentence is fine.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]The translation I suggested for tìtxen si was ‘to wake, to waken, wake up’. The sentence I sent him was

    Sa’nok ’evengur tìtxen si sresrr’ong.
    Mother woke the child in the early morning.



msg=551041 | topic=22424 | board=99 | time=2012-07-25 11:09:33 | u=2788

Re: Little confirmation - tìtxen si

Lance R. Casey

...which also implies tìtxen awakening.



msg=551055 | topic=22424 | board=99 | time=2012-07-25 13:01:27 | u=1975

Re: Little confirmation - tìtxen si

Ean Tirea

Saw this coming ftw

Irayo for confirmation! :)



msg=551071 | topic=22424 | board=99 | time=2012-07-25 15:50:23 | u=7704

Re: Little confirmation - tìtxen si

radek.raszka

Congratulation, Plumps! Dict-Na'vi is now better than our official dictionary ;D



msg=551075 | topic=22424 | board=99 | time=2012-07-25 16:08:25 | u=631

Re: Little confirmation - tìtxen si

Plumps83

[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=22424.msg551041#msg551041 date=1343214573]
...which also implies tìtxen awakening.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]Somehow this has been in there for ages ;)


[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=22424.msg551071#msg551071 date=1343231423]
Congratulation, Plumps! Dict-Na'vi is now better than our official dictionary ;D[/quote]

[font=Georgia]That was not my intend … lolu ’en nì’aw ;)



msg=551161 | topic=22424 | board=99 | time=2012-07-26 01:31:36 | u=1975

Re: Little confirmation - tìtxen si

Ean Tirea

AHhhhhhh soooo THAAAT's how dict-navi is soo much larger than Eana Eltu in size.

You extrapolated words via educated guesses on derivations of extant canonical lexical entries. Makes sense now. :D



msg=551196 | topic=22424 | board=99 | time=2012-07-26 06:38:36 | u=1550

Re: Little confirmation - tìtxen si

Taras

Irayo, txantsana fmawn :)



msg=551411 | topic=22424 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 04:00:05 | u=3048

Re: Little confirmation - tìtxen si

Txepsiyu

tìtxen si added for next version release.  Are we keeping up yet?  :D :P



msg=551661 | topic=22424 | board=99 | time=2012-07-28 18:25:54 | u=7206

Re: Little confirmation - tìtxen si

Kamean

Fmawnìri irayo seiyi. :)



msg=551295 | topic=22434 | board=99 | time=2012-07-26 18:53:15 | u=73

allergies

Prrton


I'm not sure how it should go into the dictionary, but the language class at the MeetUp in seattle also established "being allergic to something"

  ______(-ri/-ìri) lu _______ fnetxum.

The allergic person or animal goes in the topical (-ri/-ìri) and the allergen is the subject with fnetxum as the predicate.

  Oeri lu swoa fnetxum. = "I am allergic to 'alcohol'."

  This is canonical from the last dialogue in the class.

I would expect the Na’vi to be as specific about the allergen as possible. So, "I'm allergic to wasp stings." instead of just "I'm allergic to wasps." In the case of cats, we don't really SEE the allergen and how it enters our bodies, so I'd guess that:

  Oeri lu palukantsyìp fnetxum.

would be alright. We should verify that with him, though.





msg=551316 | topic=22434 | board=99 | time=2012-07-26 20:38:10 | u=7206

Re: allergies

Kamean

Irayo! :)



msg=551386 | topic=22434 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 01:58:27 | u=0

Re: allergies

Swoka Swizaw

Put fnetxum as the main entry and add the rest as part of the explanation - like kuma/akum.



msg=551388 | topic=22434 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 02:00:41 | u=4754

Re: allergies

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Prrton link=topic=22434.msg551295#msg551295 date=1343328795]

I would expect the Na’vi to be as specific about the allergen as possible. So, "I'm allergic to wasp stings." instead of just "I'm allergic to wasps." In the case of cats, we don't really SEE the allergen and how it enters our bodies, so I'd guess that:

  Oeri lu palukantsyìp fnetxum.

would be alright. We should verify that with him, though.

[/quote]

Since it is the 'dander' (dry skin flakes) of an animal that usually triggers an allergy, you might use:

Oeri lu ayìlva ta palukantsyìp fnetxum.



msg=551395 | topic=22434 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 02:20:57 | u=73

Re: allergies

Prrton

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=22434.msg551388#msg551388 date=1343354441]

Since it is the 'dander' (dry skin flakes) of an animal that usually triggers an allergy, you might use:

Oeri lu ayìlva ta palukantsyìp fnetxum.

[/quote]

I spoke with him about this (actually before seeing this), but it's on the mark. :D

Grammatically it would be either:

  Oeri lu ìlva a ta palukantsyìp fnetxum.

    or

  Oeri lu ìlva palukantsyìpä fnetxum.


Don't generalize to the level of the animal. You need the SUBSTANCE that enters or touches the body. There is no reason to put the "flake" in the plural in this case. A generalization off of the singular is more natively Na’vi.



msg=551405 | topic=22434 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 03:31:12 | u=3048

Re: allergies

Txepsiyu

I am now pondering how to make a dictionary entry that makes sense...



msg=551406 | topic=22434 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 03:35:49 | u=73

Re: allergies

Prrton


allergic (to something) ?

I don't know how to define the part of speech, though. ADJ. ?

Technically it's an idiom.




msg=551409 | topic=22434 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 03:51:10 | u=3048

Re: allergies

Txepsiyu

I was thinking adj., but the specific usage will definitely require an example.



msg=551410 | topic=22434 | board=99 | time=2012-07-27 03:52:43 | u=73

Re: allergies

Prrton


I would just use:

  Oeri lu swoa fnetxum.

as the example.




msg=561578 | topic=22912 | board=99 | time=2012-10-25 16:57:45 | u=0

Tìrey LU muiä...

Swoka Swizaw

Well, the simply awesome has happened (for me ;D). I have wanted a word that I had thought of to become canon and here it is: tìmwiä. I wrote Frommer a letter, saying:

Good morning, ma karyu...

I have a small request for a project that includes Na'vi. It's a likely tattoo design, but is missing a crucial element...a word for "fairness, justice." A while back, a word was proposed, but has yet to be considered for canonization. The word was tìmwiä, utilizing the root muiä, "fairness." Could this work? Also, since I didn't mention it, the idea is for the words "truth and justice" to encircle a Na'vi hand in a similar fashion as in the movie Boondock Saints (look it up! :P).

Your help is truly appreciated...irayo, ma Pawl.


Truth be told, I wasn't sure if the idea would come to fruition, but, Hell, I might...or if anyone else wants to, by all means. Anyway, Frommer wrote back:

Kaltxì, ma Brandon--

Yes, tìmwiä (tìm.WI.ä) is fine for "fairness, justice." So "Truth and Justice" would be Tìngay sì Tìmwiä. I like that. Haven't looked up Boondock Saints yet, but I will. ;-) Best of luck with your project.

Paul


There you have it, a new word. And one that is a bit overdue, I think. Any derivations can come later.



msg=561584 | topic=22912 | board=99 | time=2012-10-25 17:29:44 | u=631

Re: Tìrey LU muiä...

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Great! :)

Fìsäomumìri irayo seiyi ngaru



msg=561924 | topic=22912 | board=99 | time=2012-10-29 02:51:24 | u=430

Re: Tìrey LU muiä...

TehMightyPirate

Ooooh, nice tattoo idea and an excellent new word.



msg=562002 | topic=22912 | board=99 | time=2012-10-29 18:34:03 | u=7206

Re: Tìrey LU muiä...

Kamean

I love this new word. :)



msg=564284 | topic=23037 | board=99 | time=2012-11-18 22:28:40 | u=21

two words in use: 'e'al and kangay si

wm.annis

I've slowly been collecting my own dictionary which has examples along with the words.  Some day, I hope for this work to be rolled into a new and improved community dictionary system.

In any case, I was completely unable to find a single example of 'e'al worst in use.  So I asked Pawl if it occurred in some dialog that didn't make it into the film.  It had —

[quote=Pawl]
GRACE
Please – this will only confirm their worst fears about you –
Rutxe—ayngari fìkem feyä ’e’ala topur kangay sìyi nì’aw.
please about-you this their worst fears valid will-make only
[/quote]

So, here we have 'e'al in action, and a heretofore unseen verb, kangay si validate, confirm.

(He may reconfirm kangay si in a blog post soon.)



msg=564298 | topic=23037 | board=99 | time=2012-11-18 23:49:46 | u=631

Re: two words in use: 'e'al and kangay si

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Tewti, I’ve been waiting for a confirmed use of ’e’al ;D

Thanks for sharing!

EDIT: … and am very interested in your project ;) Hope to see it to become available soon :)
Could you find an example for kenong?



msg=564312 | topic=23037 | board=99 | time=2012-11-19 02:29:11 | u=4754

Re: two words in use: 'e'al and kangay si

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Txantsan!!

I'll PM you with a few questions.

Karma +1!



msg=564327 | topic=23037 | board=99 | time=2012-11-19 07:46:41 | u=7704

Re: two words in use: 'e'al and kangay si

radek.raszka

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=23037.msg564298#msg564298 date=1353282586]
[font=Georgia]Could you find an example for kenong?
[/quote]
And possibly make clear how to put infixes to this verb....



msg=564961 | topic=23037 | board=99 | time=2012-11-23 23:17:22 | u=21

Re: two words in use: 'e'al and kangay si

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=23037.msg564298#msg564298 date=1353282586]and am very interested in your project ;) Hope to see it to become available soon :)[/quote]

It is taking a while.  Hunting down examples and sifting them is quite tedious.

[quote]Could you find an example for kenong?[/quote]

I have not.  I'll see if I can extract one (gently) from Paul.



msg=565005 | topic=23037 | board=99 | time=2012-11-24 15:49:04 | u=7206

Re: two words in use: 'e'al and kangay si

Kamean

Thanks for sharing! :)



msg=566145 | topic=23134 | board=99 | time=2012-12-04 23:42:55 | u=21

Clefted "a" (poetic syntax)

wm.annis

I was looking at one of the songs on Pandorapedia, and I noticed a funny structure in the [url=http://www.pandorapedia.com/navi/music/ritual_music]Tree Song[/url],

    Utralä aNawm
    ayrina' lu ayoeng,
    a peyä tìtxur mì hinam
    awngeyä

What we have here is apparently attributive a cleft from (fancy-pants linguistics talk for "separated from") the noun it goes with, utral.  I asked Paul about this and he said,

[quote=Karyu Pawl]Of course relative clauses that are separated from their heads are common in English: "I met a guy yesterday who came from Zimbabwe." But since "a" in Na'vi is so closely tied to its noun, I wouldn't want to make this a general option . . . except in poetry. :-)[/quote]



msg=566146 | topic=23134 | board=99 | time=2012-12-04 23:46:32 | u=1975

Re: Clefted "a" (poetic syntax)

Ean Tirea

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23134.msg566145#msg566145 date=1354664575]
I was looking at one of the songs on Pandorapedia, and I noticed a funny structure in the [url=http://www.pandorapedia.com/navi/music/ritual_music]Tree Song[/url],

    Utralä aNawm
    ayrina' lu ayoeng,
    a peyä tìtxur mì hinam
    awngeyä

What we have here is apparently attributive a cleft from (fancy-pants linguistics talk for "separated from") the noun it goes with, utral.  I asked Paul about this and he said,

[quote=Karyu Pawl]Of course relative clauses that are separated from their heads are common in English: "I met a guy yesterday who came from Zimbabwe." But since "a" in Na'vi is so closely tied to its noun, I wouldn't want to make this a general option . . . except in poetry. :-)[/quote]
[/quote]

Oh! WOW! When I saw that, in order to avoid a mental breakdown, I parsed it as thus:

Utralä anawm ayrina' lu ayoeng <-{a peyä tìtxur mì hinam awngeyä}

The great tree's seeds are we, in whose legs is her strength.



msg=566147 | topic=23134 | board=99 | time=2012-12-04 23:50:33 | u=21

Re: Clefted "a" (poetic syntax)

wm.annis

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23134.msg566146#msg566146 date=1354664792]Oh! WOW! When I saw that, in order to avoid a mental breakdown, I parsed it as thus:
[/quote]

That was my impulse, too.  This note was K Pawl correcting me. :)



msg=566148 | topic=23134 | board=99 | time=2012-12-04 23:52:43 | u=1975

Re: Clefted "a" (poetic syntax)

Ean Tirea

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23134.msg566147#msg566147 date=1354665033]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23134.msg566146#msg566146 date=1354664792]Oh! WOW! When I saw that, in order to avoid a mental breakdown, I parsed it as thus:
[/quote]

That was my impulse, too.  This note was K Pawl correcting me. :)
[/quote]

Holy crud.


Thanks for this update! :D Now I totally owe some poets an apology :O



msg=566170 | topic=23134 | board=99 | time=2012-12-05 10:39:43 | u=7704

Re: Clefted "a" (poetic syntax)

radek.raszka

Good to know this, thanks. I thought this information was known before, but when checked Horen, I found it was related to genitive.



msg=566173 | topic=23134 | board=99 | time=2012-12-05 11:34:54 | u=6105

Re: Clefted "a" (poetic syntax)

Tanri

Good find, ma wm.annis. :)
This is worthy of notice, indeed.
Interesting - the presence of the pronoun peyä helps to decipher entire meaning, because it points back to utral, without ambiguity.



msg=566183 | topic=23134 | board=99 | time=2012-12-05 15:02:01 | u=1975

Re: Clefted "a" (poetic syntax)

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=23134.msg566173#msg566173 date=1354707294]
Good find, ma wm.annis. :)
This is worthy of notice, indeed.
Interesting - the presence of the pronoun peyä helps to decipher entire meaning, because it points back to utral, without ambiguity.
[/quote]

And I even thought that genitive was not supposed to be too crazy far from its noun



msg=566287 | topic=23134 | board=99 | time=2012-12-06 17:32:15 | u=7467

Re: Clefted "a" (poetic syntax)

eejmensenikbenhet

I've sung this little tune so many times (also the complete song, not just the part from the movie) and it had me thinking every time: how can peyä refer to ayoeng? I thought I was just missing some information concerning grammar.
Thanks a lot for asking and sharing this!



msg=567034 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 16:38:03 | u=21

"sto" has the same syntax as "new"

wm.annis

A question about the possible modal syntax use of sto refuse came up during discussions for one example for the LEP proposal being worked on now.  Just to be sure, I asked for clarification.

Sto may take modal syntax,

    Stolo po hivum fohu.
    She refused to leave with them.  (Example approved by K. Pawl)

It may also be a normal transitive verb,

    Stolo oel stxenut peyä.
    I refused his offer.  (A Naviter.org blog example, IIRC)

Finally, it may take a clause with futa, a fì'ut + ‹iv›, like new,

    Poel stolatso futa mefo tivaron tsaha'ngir.
    She must have refused (their request) to hunt that afternoon.  (Approved)



msg=567039 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 17:10:04 | u=7600

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Saralyn te Späyu

Txantsana fmawn.  Oel kin tsalì'ut vurfpi oeyä.  Tafral, irayo nìtxan!



msg=567056 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 19:14:59 | u=7206

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Kamean

Irayo! :)



msg=567063 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 20:01:17 | u=1550

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Taras

Seiyi irayo nìtxan! :D



msg=567073 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 20:47:55 | u=6105

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Tanri

Irayo ma wm.annis!
So we have another vtrm example of ‹iv› after futa. Interesting. Another few ones and a new rule is born. ;)



msg=567080 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 21:03:38 | u=1550

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Taras

I think any vtrm verbs could be used with futa + -iv-.



msg=567088 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 21:29:55 | u=6105

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Tanri

I thought that it seems they have to be used that way.



msg=567090 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 21:43:46 | u=631

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Thanks for asking … been waiting for that for a long time ;)

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23172.msg567034#msg567034 date=1355416683]
It may also be a normal transitive verb,

    Stolo oel stxenut peyä.
    I refused his offer.  (A Naviter.org blog example, IIRC)[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Nope, that example was changed to be used with [url=http://naviteri.org/2011/09/miscellaneous-vocabulary/]tsyär[/url]



msg=567100 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 22:27:55 | u=11067

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

NaVi_Quebec

I have another example:

Sto oel futa fkol oeti miväkxu.



msg=567101 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-13 22:42:07 | u=1550

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Taras

miväkxu ;)



msg=567110 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-14 00:47:23 | u=0

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Swoka Swizaw

I know that Na'vi is different from English, but I venture that there are many verbs that could take modal status. Of what there is now, is there anything the modal verbs have in common? Explain why <iv> can't be used to turn mostly any transitive verb into a modal verb...as "nì-" can presumably change any adjective into any adverb.

Search your feelings, ma smuk, you know it to be true.



msg=567111 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-14 00:54:28 | u=21

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

wm.annis

[quote author=Temsko link=topic=23172.msg567110#msg567110 date=1355446043]
Explain why <iv> can't be used to turn mostly any transitive verb into a modal verb...as "nì-" can presumably change any adjective into any adverb. [/quote]

Because real, natural languages don't work that way, and Frommer is aiming at naturalism.  We already have exceptions, such as sìlpey, as a warning.



msg=567206 | topic=23172 | board=99 | time=2012-12-15 18:17:51 | u=0

Re: "sto" has the same syntax as "new"

Swoka Swizaw

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23172.msg567111#msg567111 date=1355446468]
[quote author=Temsko link=topic=23172.msg567110#msg567110 date=1355446043]
Explain why <iv> can't be used to turn mostly any transitive verb into a modal verb...as "nì-" can presumably change any adjective into any adverb. [/quote]

Because real, natural languages don't work that way, and Frommer is aiming at naturalism.  We already have exceptions, such as sìlpey, as a warning.
[/quote]

I know...I wasn't sure what I was thinking. I only meant there might be a few more modal verbs as "sto" now is.



msg=567519 | topic=23201 | board=99 | time=2012-12-19 16:59:32 | u=3048

Current dictionary version is: _13.71_ July 31, 2018

Txepsiyu

13.71 - Added uolì’uvi from naviteri.org, 200BC.  (Thanks Tirea!)



msg=570349 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 16:01:01 | u=3048

ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

Txepsiyu

ftärpa, n., left side, (c.w. ftär/pa'o)
skiempa, n., right side, (c.w. skiem/pa'o)

This is an old addition from PF (last April) that got missed.



msg=570351 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 16:07:54 | u=21

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

wm.annis

It should be with an /m/ in "right side," skiempa.



msg=570352 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 16:14:14 | u=11067

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

NaVi_Quebec

[font=Papyrus]Ma mesmukan, Kameyul a Kepekftu mengati kameie.

[quote author=Toruk Makto link=topic=23323.msg570349#msg570349 date=1358006461]
ftärpa, n., left side, (c.w. ftär/pa'o)
skienpa, n., right side, (c.w. skien/pa'o)

This is an old addition from PF (last April) that got missed.
[/quote]


Thanks for warning us these interesting entries. However, they are not yet entered on dict-navi.com.


[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23323.msg570351#msg570351 date=1358006874]
It should be with a /m/ in "right side," skiempa.
[/quote]

I think it's too late for editing this word, because skienpa is now an official Na'vi word. Just too bad! Although we can legalize -np- or make an exception. But it's Karyu Pawl who created that word.

[font=papyrus]Kìyevame ulte Eywa mengahu



msg=570361 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 16:34:35 | u=631

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Thanks ma Markì for letting us know …

would be great to know how to talk about directions ;D :P but better than nothing ;) two new words *yeah*



msg=570362 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 16:40:44 | u=3048

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

Txepsiyu

The original email from Paul regarding ftärpa...


OK, regarding mìn and kìm:

Mìn is an intransitive verb meaning 'turn' or 'rotate.' So:

Mìn ne ftärpa.
'Turn to the left.'

Kunsìpìri txana tìmeyp lu tsyal a mìn.
'The gunship's main weakness is the rotor system.'

Kìm is a transitive verb meaning 'spin'--i.e. spin something:

Pol rumit kolìm.
'He spun the ball.'

As you see, kìm is roughly equivalent to the causative of mìn, meykìn: to spin something is to make the thing turn.

Hope that helps! Let me know if you have any more questions.



EDIT:  Correcting skiempa.  I need coffee.



msg=570363 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 16:41:29 | u=21

Re: ftärpa and skienpa added to dict.

wm.annis

[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23323.msg570352#msg570352 date=1358007254]I think it's too late for editing this word, because skienpa is now an official Na'vi word. Just too bad! Although we can legalize -np- or make an exception. But it's Karyu Pawl who created that word.[/quote]

No, Karyu Pawl blessed skiempa, and Markì has introduced a typo.

Email from Pawl —
[quote=Karyu Pawl]
Of course, mìn ne skiempa is well formed too. (Stress on the 1st syllable: SKI-em-pa.)

Ftärpa and skiempa should be in the dictionary. They aren't in my spreadsheet, so I'll add them there too.
[/quote]



msg=570365 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 16:47:26 | u=3048

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

Txepsiyu

Silly typo fixed...  :-[



msg=570369 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 17:03:49 | u=11067

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23323.msg570363#msg570363 date=1358008889]
[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23323.msg570352#msg570352 date=1358007254]I think it's too late for editing this word, because skienpa is now an official Na'vi word. Just too bad! Although we can legalize -np- or make an exception. But it's Karyu Pawl who created that word.[/quote]

No, Karyu Pawl blessed skiempa, and Markì has introduced a typo.
[/quote]
Ok.

Also, add them on dict-navi.com!



msg=570371 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 17:08:41 | u=21

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

wm.annis

For background...

This all came about because I've been tracking down canon examples for every word I can.  When I noticed the example with mìn in the community dictionary I got freaked out, because among other things, it had the word ftärpa which wasn't even in that dictionary. :)  So, I asked Pawl if it was dialog from the game, and if there were also a skiempa lurking somewhere.  He answered that it was from email to Markì in April, and then confirmed the utility of skiempa (as you see in the quote from the email above).  I then gently prodded Markì to post the info.



msg=570375 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 17:21:21 | u=3048

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

Txepsiyu

*POKE*



msg=570410 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-12 21:08:09 | u=7704

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

radek.raszka

[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23323.msg570369#msg570369 date=1358010229]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23323.msg570363#msg570363 date=1358008889]
[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23323.msg570352#msg570352 date=1358007254]I think it's too late for editing this word, because skienpa is now an official Na'vi word. Just too bad! Although we can legalize -np- or make an exception. But it's Karyu Pawl who created that word.[/quote]

No, Karyu Pawl blessed skiempa, and Markì has introduced a typo.
[/quote]
Ok.

Also, add them on dict-navi.com!
[/quote]
Is already there (thanks, ma Plumps!)



msg=570492 | topic=23323 | board=99 | time=2013-01-13 15:23:23 | u=11067

Re: ftärpa and skiempa added to dict.

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=23323.msg570410#msg570410 date=1358024889]
[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23323.msg570369#msg570369 date=1358010229]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23323.msg570363#msg570363 date=1358008889]
[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23323.msg570352#msg570352 date=1358007254]I think it's too late for editing this word, because skienpa is now an official Na'vi word. Just too bad! Although we can legalize -np- or make an exception. But it's Karyu Pawl who created that word.[/quote]

No, Karyu Pawl blessed skiempa, and Markì has introduced a typo.
[/quote]
Ok.

Also, add them on dict-navi.com!
[/quote]
Is already there (thanks, ma Plumps!)
[/quote]
:D



msg=572244 | topic=23384 | board=99 | time=2013-01-26 11:50:32 | u=21

pänutìng

wm.annis

I asked K Pawl if he happened to have a quick example of how pänutìng should be used from either the game or movie dialog that didn't make it into the final cut.  He sent this in reply,

[quote=K Pawl]
From the movie:

TSU'TEY: Neytiriti fkol pänutolìng oeru!

'Neytiri was promised to me!'
[/quote]

So now we know for sure it's transitive.



msg=572246 | topic=23384 | board=99 | time=2013-01-26 11:59:30 | u=1550

Re: pänutìng

Taras

[quote=K Pawl]
From the movie:

TSU'TEY: Neytiriti fkol pänutolìng oeru!

'Neytiri was promised to me!'
[/quote]

Yes, I remember this: [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/k-a/oot-koeko-bd-ko/msg350522/#msg350522]http://forum.learnnavi.org/k-a/oot-koeko-bd-ko/msg350522/#msg350522[/url] ;) Anyway irayo.



msg=572249 | topic=23384 | board=99 | time=2013-01-26 12:17:46 | u=631

Re: pänutìng

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I also remember recognising that in the deleted scenes … but somehow, I thought this was clear :-\\ :-X :-[
:P
Thanks for the confirmation, ma William ;)



msg=572251 | topic=23384 | board=99 | time=2013-01-26 12:32:50 | u=21

Re: pänutìng

wm.annis

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=23384.msg572249#msg572249 date=1359202666]I also remember recognising that in the deleted scenes … but somehow, I thought this was clear [/quote]

Not to me.  I've been digging through everything I can find to get examples and verification on words, but unless a Frommerian example makes it's way from the forum onto the wiki canon, I am likely to miss it.  Searching the forum is a last resort because it's so much work to pick just the canon usage.  Searching for Na'vi verbs is an agony, thanks to infixing.



msg=572260 | topic=23384 | board=99 | time=2013-01-26 14:01:16 | u=1975

Re: pänutìng

Ean Tirea

Usage with futa is now seen on Naviteri.



msg=572262 | topic=23384 | board=99 | time=2013-01-26 14:25:02 | u=21

Re: pänutìng

wm.annis

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23384.msg572260#msg572260 date=1359208876]
Usage with futa is now seen on Naviteri.
[/quote]

Link?  The search there gives me nada.



msg=572263 | topic=23384 | board=99 | time=2013-01-26 14:28:27 | u=1975

Re: pänutìng

Ean Tirea

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23384.msg572262#msg572262 date=1359210302]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23384.msg572260#msg572260 date=1359208876]
Usage with futa is now seen on Naviteri.
[/quote]

Link?  The search there gives me nada.
[/quote]

[quote]Searching for Na'vi verbs is an agony, thanks to infixing.[/quote]
;D

From latest post:

Loakìl pänutolìng futa kar oeru fya’ot a ’ìp fko nemfa ewll.
Poltxe po san lu ingyentsyìp azey.

‘Loak promised he’d teach me how to vanish into the bushes.
He said there’s a special trick to it.’



msg=572317 | topic=23384 | board=99 | time=2013-01-26 17:19:26 | u=7704

Re: pänutìng

radek.raszka

[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=23384.msg572244#msg572244 date=1359201032]
I asked K Pawl if he happened to have a quick example of how pänutìng should be used from either the game or movie dialog that didn't make it into the final cut.  He sent this in reply,

[quote=K Pawl]
From the movie:

TSU'TEY: Neytiriti fkol pänutolìng oeru!

'Neytiri was promised to me!'
[/quote]

So now we know for sure it's transitive.
[/quote]
But current dictionary says that pänutìng is vtr. It had to be cleared before..



msg=572924 | topic=23410 | board=99 | time=2013-01-30 23:06:58 | u=3048

1/25/13 and 1/31/13 vocab added to dictionary

Txepsiyu

... along with typo corrections found by Wm and Tim.



msg=572997 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-01-31 10:31:32 | u=631

Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]A few weeks back we had a discussion [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/beginners/comparison/]about comparisons[/url]. I was intrigued and asked K. Pawl about it. Here are his responses. Some of this we knew or guessed. But it’s always good to have confirmation.

[quote=K. Pawl, 25 Jan][quote=me]We know that we can handle ‘I am as fast as you’ with the ‘A lu nìftxan ADJ na/pxel B’. Is this also possible with other verbs? E.g. Oe tul nìftxan nìwin na nga ‘I run as fast as you’?[/quote]
Yes, that’s fine. Here, nìftxan is used before an ADV, not an ADJ, but that’s perfectly OK.

[quote=me]Or with a transitive verb: Oel yerikit taron nìftxan nìltsan na nga ‘I hunt yerik as well as you’?[/quote]
Fine.

[quote=me]The same question with unequal comparisons: Our paradigm there is ‘A to B lu ADJ’. Is this also possible with other verbs? Like Oe to nga tul nìwin ‘I run faster than you’.[/quote]
Fine.

[quote=me]And if the particle to behaves like , it should theoretically be possible to use it with a case ending, right? Like Oel to ngal yerikit taron nìltsan ‘I hunt yerik better than you’ ?[/quote]
That seems fine to me as well.

[quote=me]With the superlative, we have examples of lu ADJ frato, N a-ADJ frato, V frato but not ADV frato. So these should be correct:
Po lu win frato. ‘S/He is the fastest.’ (faster than all)
Oel tsole’a fwampopit awin frato. ‘I saw the fastest Tapirus.’[/quote]
Those are all OK.

[quote=me]Nga oer tsranten frato. ‘You matter the most to me.’[/quote]
Yes, that’s OK. But I’m wondering now about the “V frato” examples. Have you come across others in this category, besides tsranten? Whereas frato is freely used with all (scalable) adjectives and adverbs, I think its use with verbs should be quite restricted. For example, what would it mean to say, “Pol yerikit taron frato”? You need an adverb here, I think: “Pol yerikit taron nìltsan frato”—He hunts yerik better than anyone, or, the best of all.

[quote=me]Is po tul nìwin frato ‘s/he runs the fastest’ also correct?[/quote]
Sure, that’s fine.[/quote]


[font=Georgia]And concerning gerund formation of compound verbs. Something, I think, William also wondered about in Horen Lì’fyayä.
[quote=K. Pawl, 31 Jan]As to the gerund with compound verbs: good question! I hadn't given that consideration. But the answer is clear in my mind: it's tìyomtusìng, not *yomtìtusìng.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]So, the tì- element always comes before the whole word, the ‹us› enters wherever the first position infix is in the verb… e.g. tìpänutusìng, tìnusewomum, tìzoslusu, tì’awstengyusem.


And lastly, I don’t know how I could have forgotten that but this is a confirmation of a word that’s almost a year old. Furia oel tsat tswolänga’ oeru txoa livu nìngay.

[quote=K. Pawl][quote=me]I don’t know if you can provide me with a short answer whether we could use kelsar (kel.SAR, from ke+l(e)sar) to mean ‘useless, in vain’?[/quote]
Tsalì'u alu kelsar kosman lu nì'aw! [/quote]



msg=573017 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-01-31 12:50:51 | u=1975

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Ean Tirea

Awesome stuff! Very useful confirmations!



msg=573028 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-01-31 13:22:00 | u=2203

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

grzesio

Very interesting :) Really useful stuff!
Yeah.. Last time I've been here was.. year ago :(
Time to learn some Na'vi :D



msg=573035 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-01-31 15:28:17 | u=10322

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Titstewan

Lu fmawn eltur tìtxen si nang! :)
Irayo nìtxan nang ma Plumps.



msg=573054 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-01-31 18:21:11 | u=7704

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

radek.raszka

Good to see answer from our biggest authority :) Thanks for asking, Plumps.
Now we must update our grammar documents...



msg=573116 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-01-31 23:34:31 | u=21

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

wm.annis

Yay, clarity!



msg=573193 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-01 14:11:26 | u=3048

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Txepsiyu

Good one!  Word kelsar added.  New dictionary version 12.881



msg=573715 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-04 02:24:12 | u=11067

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

NaVi_Quebec

[desc=These new words aren't useless, but useful. I think we needed them.

However, ''ugly'' doesn't exist in Na'vi. Why not ''kelor''?]Faylì'u amip ke lu kelsar ki lesar! Oel fpìl futa frapol kamin faylì'ut.

Ngian, lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu ugly ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Pelun ke ngop lì'ut alu kelor?[/desc] :(



msg=573717 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-04 03:10:26 | u=1975

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Ean Tirea


[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23412.msg573715#msg573715 date=1359944652]
[desc=These new words aren't useless, but useful. I think we needed them.

However, ''ugly'' doesn't exist in Na'vi. Why not ''kelor''?]Faylì'u amip ke lu kelsar ki lesar! Oel fpìl futa frapol kamin faylì'ut.

Ngian, lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu ugly ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Pelun ke ngop lì'ut alu kelor?[/desc] :(
[/quote]

vä'. The opposite of lor is vä'.

tsatuteyä keyìri 'ur fkan lor - that person's face looks beautiful
tsatuteyä keyìri ri 'ur fkan vä' - that person's face looks ugly



msg=573761 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-04 13:17:55 | u=11067

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

NaVi_Quebec

Thanks!

Lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu nor mi ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Fìlì'u latsu lesar, kefyak?



msg=573763 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-04 13:25:30 | u=631

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Plumps83

[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23412.msg573761#msg573761 date=1359983875]
Thanks!

Lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu nor mi ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Fìlì'u latsu lesar, kefyak?[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Fìralìri fko tsun sivar lì’ut fu lì’fyavit alu ftxey (… ftxey (fuke)) ;)

Natkenong:
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
Neither her brother nor her mother came to her test/exam.



msg=573764 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-04 13:32:05 | u=11067

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

NaVi_Quebec

Irayo, ma Plumps.

Oe lu skxawng nìNa'vi  :-[ , slä oe nerume.



msg=573779 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-04 15:04:42 | u=1975

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=23412.msg573763#msg573763 date=1359984330]
[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23412.msg573761#msg573761 date=1359983875]
Thanks!

Lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu nor mi ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Fìlì'u latsu lesar, kefyak?[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Fìralìri fko tsun sivar lì’ut fu lì’fyavit alu ftxey (… ftxey (fuke)) ;)

Natkenong:
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
Neither her brother nor her mother came to her test/exam.

[/quote]

:O REALLY? I did NOT know that. I thought that We had the word from pawl that it was "Neither do X nor Y" = "Not do Either X or Y" or something like that, rearranging word order such that you can use the words we have, either or.  Or say something that is logically equivalent.. ??? :-\\ o.O

If it's true that we can use ftxey ftxey as "Neither / either" that's kinda news for me. I never thouht to translate it like that. I always thouht of it as "Whether X, whether Y, Z." "Whether it rains, whether it snows, the event will happen." sort of thing.

Coolness. :D



msg=573810 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-04 17:50:37 | u=7704

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23412.msg573779#msg573779 date=1359990282]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=23412.msg573763#msg573763 date=1359984330]
[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23412.msg573761#msg573761 date=1359983875]
Thanks!

Lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu nor mi ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Fìlì'u latsu lesar, kefyak?[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Fìralìri fko tsun sivar lì’ut fu lì’fyavit alu ftxey (… ftxey (fuke)) ;)

Natkenong:
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
Neither her brother nor her mother came to her test/exam.

[/quote]

:O REALLY? I did NOT know that. I thought that We had the word from pawl that it was "Neither do X nor Y" = "Not do Either X or Y" or something like that, rearranging word order such that you can use the words we have, either or.  Or say something that is logically equivalent.. ??? :-\\ o.O

If it's true that we can use ftxey ftxey as "Neither / either" that's kinda news for me. I never thouht to translate it like that. I always thouht of it as "Whether X, whether Y, Z." "Whether it rains, whether it snows, the event will happen." sort of thing.

Coolness. :D
[/quote]
Is it negation what causes this meaning? We were discussing it before [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/kefu-does-it-exists/]in this thread[/url], but I forgot it already...



msg=573883 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-04 22:29:12 | u=631

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Plumps83

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23412.msg573779#msg573779 date=1359990282]:O REALLY? I did NOT know that. I thought that We had the word from pawl that it was "Neither do X nor Y" = "Not do Either X or Y" or something like that, rearranging word order such that you can use the words we have, either or.  Or say something that is logically equivalent.. ??? :-\\ o.O

If it's true that we can use ftxey ftxey as "Neither / either" that's kinda news for me. I never thouht to translate it like that. I always thouht of it as "Whether X, whether Y, Z." "Whether it rains, whether it snows, the event will happen." sort of thing.

Coolness. :D[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Pure conjecture on my part, ma Tirea :P

Hm, otherwise I wouldn’t know how to translate the canon sentence sutekip nìwotx ftxey Na’vi ftxey Sawtute lu sìltsan lu kawng … ???  :-\\ I always translated that as “among all people, neither Na’vi nor Skypeople are (truely) good or bad” … or something like that. :P Somehow I know what is meant in Na’vi but I can’t translate it into proper English … Native speakers to the rescue, rutxe ;)



msg=573885 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-02-04 22:33:47 | u=1975

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=23412.msg573883#msg573883 date=1360016952]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23412.msg573779#msg573779 date=1359990282]:O REALLY? I did NOT know that. I thought that We had the word from pawl that it was "Neither do X nor Y" = "Not do Either X or Y" or something like that, rearranging word order such that you can use the words we have, either or.  Or say something that is logically equivalent.. ??? :-\\ o.O

If it's true that we can use ftxey ftxey as "Neither / either" that's kinda news for me. I never thouht to translate it like that. I always thouht of it as "Whether X, whether Y, Z." "Whether it rains, whether it snows, the event will happen." sort of thing.

Coolness. :D[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Pure conjecture on my part, ma Tirea :P

Hm, otherwise I wouldn’t know how to translate the canon sentence sutekip nìwotx ftxey Na’vi ftxey Sawtute lu sìltsan lu kawng … ???  :-\\ I always translated that as “among all people, neither Na’vi nor Skypeople are (truely) good or bad” … or something like that. :P Somehow I know what is meant in Na’vi but I can’t translate it into proper English … Native speakers to the rescue, rutxe ;)

[/quote]

That sentence I always thought of as "Among all people, whether Na'vi, whether Skyperson, there's good and there's bad." basically the idea of There is good and there is bad in all types of people, doesn't matter what race.



msg=577397 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-03-03 03:47:35 | u=8486

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Quantum1423

Dunno whether this is a necropost, but
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
makes quite a lot of sense to me. I analyze it as

(Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok) ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.

or


for each word W in {tsmukan, sa'nok}
  W ke zola'u peyä tìfmetokne.



msg=577398 | topic=23412 | board=99 | time=2013-03-03 03:58:36 | u=1975

Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Arekáthe Akêtheni link=topic=23412.msg577397#msg577397 date=1362282455]
Dunno whether this is a necropost, but
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
makes quite a lot of sense to me. I analyze it as

(Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok) ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.

or


for each word W in {tsmukan, sa'nok}
  W ke zola'u peyä tìfmetokne.

[/quote]

That code would imply, I think, that you could do this:


for each word W in {tsmukan, sa'nok, tsmuke, 'eylan, Txewì...}
        W ke zola'u [desc=some other person's]peyä[/desc] tìfmetokne


Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa'nok ftxey tsmuke ftxey 'eylan ftxey Txewì [[ftxey ... ftxey ... ...]] ke zola'u peyä tìfmetokne

Can we do that? Not a necro, but I'm considering a split because this doesn't have to do with OP, I think.



msg=577058 | topic=23576 | board=99 | time=2013-02-28 22:45:13 | u=3048

'ekxinum clarified by Tsm. Pawl

Txepsiyu

Paul, in an email to me on clarifying definition of 'ekxinum:

-------------------------------------------------------
The trouble here is with English. Let's look at a parallel example:

somwew

Now as you know, som is hot, wew is cold. So somwew literally means hot-cold. So when we say somwewpe, we're asking, "What's the hot-cold?" In other words, what's the degree of hotness or coldness? Of course English has a nice word for that: temperature. So that's the idiomatic translation for somwew.

'Ekxinum is exactly parallel. 'Ekxin is tight, um is loose. So 'ekxinum literally means tight-loose. When we say 'ekxinumpe, we're asking, "What's the tight-loose?" In other words, what's the degree of tightness or looseness? Trouble is, English doesn't have a nice word for that which would correspond to temperature. (At least I can't think of one.)

In any event, I guess a clearer translation of 'ekxinum would be "degree of tightness or looseness." In other words, where is it on the tight-loose scale?
-------------------------------------------------------

Adjusting in the dictionary accordingly.

ta Markì



msg=577126 | topic=23576 | board=99 | time=2013-03-01 10:39:23 | u=7704

Re: 'ekxinum clarified by Tsm. Pawl

radek.raszka

Well, there is more words created this way (ngimpup, tsawlhì'....). But 'ekxinum is probably the first one which does not have exact English counterpart.
Anyway, thanks for asking for comment.



msg=577154 | topic=23576 | board=99 | time=2013-03-01 14:03:12 | u=3048

Re: 'ekxinum clarified by Tsm. Pawl

Txepsiyu

Also last night, Paul legalized ikranay (since we have -nay now) and asked the ASG word lonataya (medusa) be removed. He also posted the next Naviteri entry as we see.  :D




msg=577202 | topic=23576 | board=99 | time=2013-03-01 20:03:20 | u=7704

Re: 'ekxinum clarified by Tsm. Pawl

radek.raszka

So lonataya is now wrong? Wiya, I used it in my story. Fortunately, we still have fpxafaw :)



msg=577394 | topic=23576 | board=99 | time=2013-03-03 03:40:33 | u=8486

Re: 'ekxinum clarified by Tsm. Pawl

Quantum1423

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=23576.msg577202#msg577202 date=1362168200]
So lonataya is now wrong? Wiya, I used it in my story. Fortunately, we still have fpxafaw :)
[/quote]
Probably the existence of fpxafaw is a main reason why *lonataya was removed...



msg=577395 | topic=23576 | board=99 | time=2013-03-03 03:42:02 | u=1975

Re: 'ekxinum clarified by Tsm. Pawl

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Arekáthe Akêtheni link=topic=23576.msg577394#msg577394 date=1362282033]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=23576.msg577202#msg577202 date=1362168200]
So lonataya is now wrong? Wiya, I used it in my story. Fortunately, we still have fpxafaw :)
[/quote]
Probably the existence of fpxafaw is a main reason why *lonataya was removed...
[/quote]

What explains why pxel and na coexist? *shrug*



msg=583134 | topic=23576 | board=99 | time=2013-04-29 04:30:44 | u=430

Re: 'ekxinum clarified by Tsm. Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Toruk Makto link=topic=23576.msg577058#msg577058 date=1362091513]
When we say 'ekxinumpe, we're asking, "What's the tight-loose?" In other words, what's the degree of tightness or looseness? Trouble is, English doesn't have a nice word for that which would correspond to temperature. (At least I can't think of one.)
[/quote]

Way late on this but I figured this was a good place to post this. Engineering has a useful term for the word that you're looking for: "clearance". We can likely directly translate 'ekxinum very nicely as "clearance" in English.



msg=583167 | topic=23576 | board=99 | time=2013-04-29 11:26:00 | u=3048

Re: 'ekxinum clarified by Tsm. Pawl

Txepsiyu

Hmmm. Good one. You should bounce that off tsm. Pawl.



msg=583219 | topic=23576 | board=99 | time=2013-04-29 20:53:22 | u=430

Re: 'ekxinum clarified by Tsm. Pawl

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Toruk Makto link=topic=23576.msg583167#msg583167 date=1367234760]
Hmmm. Good one. You should bounce that off tsm. Pawl.
[/quote]


Done. Will post back when I know more.



msg=580213 | topic=23704 | board=99 | time=2013-03-28 22:51:02 | u=3048

Fìpo and lapo

Txepsiyu

See [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/website-info/the-dictionary-part-ii/msg580212/#msg580212]http://forum.learnnavi.org/website-info/the-dictionary-part-ii/msg580212/#msg580212[/url]



msg=580605 | topic=23723 | board=99 | time=2013-04-02 18:14:13 | u=3048

ketsran

Txepsiyu

Added ketsran from naviteri, March 31, 2013. New dictionary version is 12.93.

ta Markì



msg=580613 | topic=23724 | board=99 | time=2013-04-02 18:39:34 | u=73

Honorifics in the third person

Prrton


’Eylan Ayfalulukanä raised an interesting question [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/honorific-third-person/msg580550/#msg580550]HERE[/url].

I asked about it in the context of the Na’vi belief system and got this in response via e-mail today (02 April 2013):

“I've thought of the honorifics as being first and second person only, mainly for ceremonial use although they inevitably get extended to non-face-to-face contexts. I don't think the Na'vi need honorific third-person pronouns. If talking about rather than to Eywa, they can substitute Nawma Sa'nok for variety. Or maybe even just Sa'nok if the context is clear.” —Paul Frommer

So there you have it. There are no 3rd person honorific pronouns. It's official. You can show respect by using the entity's name or a metaphorical title (i.e. by NOT using a pronoun).




msg=580616 | topic=23724 | board=99 | time=2013-04-02 18:47:41 | u=10322

Re: Honorifics in the third person

Titstewan

That was though already mentioned similar?
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=12547.msg311739#msg311739 date=1284733869]
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=12547.msg311738#msg311738 date=1284733777]But the fact that she said "srung si" and not "srung suyi" means it wasn't in the ceremonial register anyway, kefyak?
[/quote]

Not necessarily.  Frommer has said that you can use the ceremonial forms to set up the ceremonial context, but once used you don't need to keep using them constantly.

Frommer has had ample opportunity to let us know if there were ceremonial 3rd person pronouns.  We haven't seen any so far, so I doubt they exist (now or in the future).  The verb infix can pick up the slack.
[/quote]



msg=580619 | topic=23724 | board=99 | time=2013-04-02 18:51:29 | u=73

Re: Honorifics in the third person

Prrton

I believe that this is the first official confirmation that no parallel forms to ngenga and ohe exist in the 3rd person. It has been a safe assumption up to this point. Now we know that there are no explicit forms and that it's more polite to use a NAME than to use a pronoun to refer to honored people.

:-)



msg=580620 | topic=23724 | board=99 | time=2013-04-02 18:53:42 | u=10322

Re: Honorifics in the third person

Titstewan

Ah! Well, thanks for this info, ma Prrton. :)



msg=580664 | topic=23724 | board=99 | time=2013-04-03 09:44:42 | u=631

Re: Honorifics in the third person

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Confirmation is always good.
Thanks for the update, ma Prrton :)



msg=580787 | topic=23731 | board=99 | time=2013-04-04 17:39:46 | u=3048

kangay si

Txepsiyu

Finally got around to adding this after lots of reminders.  :D 

New dictionary version 12.94.



msg=582570 | topic=23793 | board=99 | time=2013-04-23 17:40:09 | u=7704

Fnetxum, ke

radek.raszka

Approximately month ago there was discussion about fnetxum and ke in dictionary thread. As no solution was found, I asked our biggest authority, Paul. Here are his answers:
[quote=Blue Elf]About a month ago there was small discussion about fnetxum, which is defined as "allergic" (adjective). However we do not understand why it is adjective. Seems that words is created as fne-txum, literally kind/type of-poison, so base word is noun and result should be noun as well, as this is productive process.
Sample sentence is Oeri lu X fnetxum -> I'm allergic to X (but literal translation sounds strange: As for me, X is allergic. More logical would be IMHO:
X-ri oe lu fnetxum - > As for X I'm allergic)

However, this type of sentences allows two usages:
X<noun> lu Y<adjective>
X<noun> lu Y<noun>
This supports idea that fnetxum could be noun, with meaning like "allergen (thing which causes allergy)" :

Oeri lu X fnetxum. = "I am allergic to X'." -> As for me, X is allergen

Our discussion lead to no result, and probably nobody else sent you question about this matter; so I dare to do this. Can you give us explanation why fnetxum is adjective and if it wouldn't be more appropriate to change it to noun?[/quote]
Response from Paul:
About fnetxum: You're absolutely right--it's not an adjective, it's a noun. The label in the dictionary is wrong. I'll notify Mark Miller about that. As you realized, fnetxum basically means "kind or variety of poison," but it's also used to mean "allergen." A literal translation of "Oeri lu X fnetxum" would be, "As for me, X is an allergen," but of course a much more idiomatic translation into English is "I'm allergic to X."

[quote=Blue Elf]And one more simple question: In our community dictionary I noticed ke is defined as an adverb, although IMHO it should be particle (to create negative verbs). Is it correct? This question also wasn't solved in discussion.[/quote]
Answer from Paul:
As for ke, well, I admit it's an unusual adverb. But dictionaries typically treat negative particles as adverbs. In a way, the negative element comments on or modifies the verb. If you say, for example, "He does not swim," you're saying "In what way does he swim? In no way at all!" So we can consider ke as an adverb modifying the verb. Of course it has other uses as well. Perhaps a more complete designation would be, "ADV, PART." I'll think about that.

So, another piece of knowledge we have got.



msg=582581 | topic=23793 | board=99 | time=2013-04-23 18:41:25 | u=3048

Re: Fnetxum, ke

Txepsiyu

Good one!  Dictionary corrected. New version 12.95!



msg=582585 | topic=23793 | board=99 | time=2013-04-23 18:53:43 | u=6105

Re: Fnetxum, ke

Tanri

[desc=Thank you very much Blue Elf]Irayo ngaru nìtxan ma Blue Elf[/desc]!
[desc=Another piece of knowledge helped the beautiful picture of this language to became clearer]Lahea ’it tìomumä srung soli lora relur fìlì’fyayä fte sliveiu law nì’ul[/desc]... :)



msg=582587 | topic=23793 | board=99 | time=2013-04-23 19:11:51 | u=7206

Re: Fnetxum, ke

Kamean

Irayo seiyi! :)



msg=582590 | topic=23793 | board=99 | time=2013-04-23 19:37:14 | u=10322

Re: Fnetxum, ke

Titstewan

Irayo ngaru ma Blue Elf!
Seysonìltsan!



msg=583239 | topic=23829 | board=99 | time=2013-04-29 23:41:25 | u=1975

Use of Agentive case and Ambiguity

Ean Tirea

Kaltxì ma frapo. Several months ago, I stumbled across [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/k-a/o-eoomot-aeta/]this thread [/url]started by Kemaweyan, which I translated and put [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/prefixes-infixes-and-suffixes/about-the-need-of-agentive-(-l-il)/msg561361/#msg561361]here[/url] because I feel he raised a good point. Turns out he was right.

The use or non-use of the agentive -l in attributive clauses has a lot to say about the meaning. And when you can't use the agentive because of an intransitive modal verb, the ambiguity stays, and context has to make it clear.

[spoiler=email conversation with K.Pawl]
[quote=Tirea Aean]So my mate Neytiri was teaching someone and came across a crazy ambiguity:

"I like this thing that I can see" vs. "I like that I can see"
"Oeru sunu fwa oe tsun tsive'a"

but which does it mean? It seems ambiguous.

Tsmukan Kemaweyan discovered a similar ambiguitiy in October:

"I like this thing that I understood" vs. "I like that I understood"
"Oeru sunu fwa oe tslolam."

In this case, he argued that using -l on oe would maybe break the ambiguity:

"Oeru sunu fwa oel tslolam" (I like the thing which I've understood)
"Oeru sunu fwa oe tslolam" (I like that I've understood)

What do you think? IS it possible to use the "Oel Teylut New Yivom" exception in order to use this in the first case?:

"Oeru sunu fwa oel tsun tsive'a" (I like this thing that I can see")

I've said that using -l with tsun feels wrong in this case and in any case except the exception outlined in the Na'viteri post.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated, as always.

Eywa Ngahu[/quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]You're right to point out that "Sunu oeru fwa oe tsun tsive'a" is ambiguous.

(As Kemaweyan pointed out, "Sunu oeru fwa oe tsive'a" is NOT ambiguous: it can only mean "I like (the fact) that I see." If you want to say, "I like the thing I see" or "I like what I see," it has to be "Sunu oeru fwa oel tse'a.")

I think that in most cases, context will determine which of the meanings is appropriate. But I agree that there has to be a way to disambiguate when there's the danger of miscommunication.

Like you, I don't like using -l with tsun, so that's not an option for disambiguating the sentence.

I don't want to come up with an answer that i haven't considered carefully, so let me take a bit more time on this, and as soon as I have something I'm happy with, I'll get back to you, OK?[/quote]
[quote=Tirea Aean]Just checking up on the status of the ambiguity thing. Have you had any free time to think about it?

Personally, I was thinking that some options might be:

a) make a rule where in this instance, fwa and fì'u a are slightly different:

Oeru sunu fwa oe tsun tsive'a
(I like the fact that I can see)

Oeru sunu fì'u a oe tsun tsive'a
(I like this thing that I can see)

b) include some patient, like tsat:

Oeru sunu fwa oe tsun tsive'a
(I like the fact that I can see)

Oeru sunu fwa oe tsun tsive'a tsat
(I like this thing which I can see it)

But of course, there is still possible ambiguity in that last one:
I like this thing which I can see it / I like the fact that I can see that thing.

This really is a crazy ambiguity. Maybe this has to be one of those unsolvable ambiguities where context is the solution. Ambiguous sentences as you have said must exist if a language is to feel natural. All natural languages have some ambiguity.

What do you think?[/quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]
[...]I really don't think it's a serious problem. As you've said, ambiguity is a fact of life in all natural languages. Actually, it's sometimes a plus, in that it allows for multiple layers of meaning and also artistry in language--for example, puns and "double entendres."[...][/quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]
Just one quick thing for now. When I was thinking about this, something in English dawned on me. I'll leave it to you to ponder.  :-)

Consider this sentence:

The fact that she told me is hard to accept.

See the connection?

<g>

P.[/quote]
[quote=Tirea Aean]S1: she tells me a fact. To accept it is difficult.
S2: She tells me something. This situation is difficult to accept.[/quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]YES!!!

To elaborate a bit on the interpretations:

1. I never thought she'd tell me. But she did. She told me. That's hard for me to accept.

2. She told me a fact. That fact is hard for me to accept.

So would you agree that this is very similar to the Na'vi ambiguity?

When I realized that, i said to myself, "If English isn't seriously impaired by such an ambiguity, Na'vi shouldn't be either."

One thing is surprising, though: The English sentence is ambiguous in writing, but in speaking we make a distinction. (See if this feels right to you.)

1. The fact that she TOLD ME is hard to accept.

2. The FACT that she told me is hard to accept.

Interesting, huh?[/quote]
[/spoiler]



msg=583241 | topic=23829 | board=99 | time=2013-04-30 01:17:32 | u=6032

Re: Use of Agentive case and Ambiguity

Seze Mune

Very interesting discussion.  I think it leaves me in ambiguity.

Maybe we need a word for ambiguous or ambiguity.  We already have one for UNambiguously: nìpxi



msg=583242 | topic=23829 | board=99 | time=2013-04-30 01:19:26 | u=430

Re: Use of Agentive case and Ambiguity

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23829.msg583239#msg583239 date=1367278885]
Kaltxì ma frapo. Several months ago, I stumbled across [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/k-a/o-eoomot-aeta/]this thread [/url]started by Kemaweyan, which I translated and put [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/prefixes-infixes-and-suffixes/about-the-need-of-agentive-(-l-il)/msg561361/#msg561361]here[/url] because I feel he raised a good point. Turns out he was right.

The use or non-use of the agentive -l in attributive clauses has a lot to say about the meaning. And when you can't use the agentive because of an intransitive modal verb, the ambiguity stays, and context has to make it clear.

[spoiler=email conversation with K.Pawl]
[quote=Tirea Aean]So my mate Neytiri was teaching someone and came across a crazy ambiguity:

"I like this thing that I can see" vs. "I like that I can see"
"Oeru sunu fwa oe tsun tsive'a"

but which does it mean? It seems ambiguous.

Tsmukan Kemaweyan discovered a similar ambiguitiy in October:

"I like this thing that I understood" vs. "I like that I understood"
"Oeru sunu fwa oe tslolam."

In this case, he argued that using -l on oe would maybe break the ambiguity:

"Oeru sunu fwa oel tslolam" (I like the thing which I've understood)
"Oeru sunu fwa oe tslolam" (I like that I've understood)

What do you think? IS it possible to use the "Oel Teylut New Yivom" exception in order to use this in the first case?:

"Oeru sunu fwa oel tsun tsive'a" (I like this thing that I can see")

I've said that using -l with tsun feels wrong in this case and in any case except the exception outlined in the Na'viteri post.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated, as always.

Eywa Ngahu[/quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]You're right to point out that "Sunu oeru fwa oe tsun tsive'a" is ambiguous.

(As Kemaweyan pointed out, "Sunu oeru fwa oe tsive'a" is NOT ambiguous: it can only mean "I like (the fact) that I see." If you want to say, "I like the thing I see" or "I like what I see," it has to be "Sunu oeru fwa oel tse'a.")

I think that in most cases, context will determine which of the meanings is appropriate. But I agree that there has to be a way to disambiguate when there's the danger of miscommunication.

Like you, I don't like using -l with tsun, so that's not an option for disambiguating the sentence.

I don't want to come up with an answer that i haven't considered carefully, so let me take a bit more time on this, and as soon as I have something I'm happy with, I'll get back to you, OK?[/quote]
[quote=Tirea Aean]Just checking up on the status of the ambiguity thing. Have you had any free time to think about it?

Personally, I was thinking that some options might be:

a) make a rule where in this instance, fwa and fì'u a are slightly different:

Oeru sunu fwa oe tsun tsive'a
(I like the fact that I can see)

Oeru sunu fì'u a oe tsun tsive'a
(I like this thing that I can see)

b) include some patient, like tsat:

Oeru sunu fwa oe tsun tsive'a
(I like the fact that I can see)

Oeru sunu fwa oe tsun tsive'a tsat
(I like this thing which I can see it)

But of course, there is still possible ambiguity in that last one:
I like this thing which I can see it / I like the fact that I can see that thing.

This really is a crazy ambiguity. Maybe this has to be one of those unsolvable ambiguities where context is the solution. Ambiguous sentences as you have said must exist if a language is to feel natural. All natural languages have some ambiguity.

What do you think?[/quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]
[...]I really don't think it's a serious problem. As you've said, ambiguity is a fact of life in all natural languages. Actually, it's sometimes a plus, in that it allows for multiple layers of meaning and also artistry in language--for example, puns and "double entendres."[...][/quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]
Just one quick thing for now. When I was thinking about this, something in English dawned on me. I'll leave it to you to ponder.  :-)

Consider this sentence:

The fact that she told me is hard to accept.

See the connection?

<g>

P.[/quote]
[quote=Tirea Aean]S1: she tells me a fact. To accept it is difficult.
S2: She tells me something. This situation is difficult to accept.[/quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]YES!!!

To elaborate a bit on the interpretations:

1. I never thought she'd tell me. But she did. She told me. That's hard for me to accept.

2. She told me a fact. That fact is hard for me to accept.

So would you agree that this is very similar to the Na'vi ambiguity?

When I realized that, i said to myself, "If English isn't seriously impaired by such an ambiguity, Na'vi shouldn't be either."

One thing is surprising, though: The English sentence is ambiguous in writing, but in speaking we make a distinction. (See if this feels right to you.)

1. The fact that she TOLD ME is hard to accept.

2. The FACT that she told me is hard to accept.

Interesting, huh?[/quote]
[/spoiler]
[/quote]

Fascinating. I'm actually kind of glad we have little ambiguities like this. It makes the language feel more "real" to me. Plus, in this case, I think any rule that is made might actually make the language more difficult. This way any new learners will automatically be right, they just have to be aware about the potential for ambiguity.



msg=584837 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-18 01:20:13 | u=7704

Some news from Berlin

radek.raszka

At the Euroavatar in Berlin Plumps lead some Na'vi lessons every day and on the Thursday Paul came among us. There was question about double dative (like in well-known phrase from the movie: Lu oeru aylì'u frapor) and Plumps asked if it is possible to use double dative in sentence like "I wrote letter to you" as there is no space for confusion. Paul agreed on this and gave us these examples:

Oe pamrel si ngar 'upxarer. -> I write message to you.
Oe pamrel soli ngaru 'upxarer san Oe zaya'u trray (sìk). -> I wrote to you message "I'll come tomorrow". Note that using of alu is not correct here: Oe pamrel soli ngaru 'upxarer *alu san Oe zaya'u trray.
Nga pamrel soli 'upxarer pesur? -> to whom (what person) you wrote message?

Also there was question how to say: Sun shines. Pawl said that Tsawke lrrtok si is good way to express it.

Plumps, please correct me if I screwed up something...



msg=584838 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-18 01:56:22 | u=1975

Re: Some news from Berlin

Ean Tirea

Awesome!

Double dative is possible... So now my question is...

How do you say:

He made me make you hunt a hexapede.

;D

Oh! And does this mean that "Oe pamrel si 'upxareru" is correct now? Previously it had to be "'upxareri oe pamrel si" and "oe pamrel si ngaru" and "'upxareri pamrel si oe ngaru" I wonder why he changed his Mind about pamrel si being different from the rest? Simplicity and less exceptions?



msg=584873 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-18 13:52:44 | u=11067

Re: Some news from Berlin

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23959.msg584838#msg584838 date=1368842182]
How do you say:

He made me make you hunt a hexapede.

;D
[/quote]
Whoa!
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LO3szk9d4vQ/TZngISj7IyI/AAAAAAAABXM/JzTb12c0eLQ/s1600/Challenge_accepted.jpg[/img]

Po pamawm oeru fwa teykaron ngaru yerikit.



msg=584951 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-18 23:42:21 | u=1975

Re: Some news from Berlin

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23959.msg584873#msg584873 date=1368885164]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23959.msg584838#msg584838 date=1368842182]
How do you say:

He made me make you hunt a hexapede.

;D
[/quote]
Whoa!
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LO3szk9d4vQ/TZngISj7IyI/AAAAAAAABXM/JzTb12c0eLQ/s1600/Challenge_accepted.jpg[/img]

Po pamawm oeru fwa teykaron ngaru yerikit.
[/quote]

If you're gonna go the "He asked me to make you hunt a hexapede" then you would say this:

pol vin futa oel teykaron ngaru yerikit.

But this is still different. But I guess this is the best attempt so far to translate this I've come across. Translating the meaning not the words. Translating the words, You'd be stuck with a double dative or something.



msg=584956 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-18 23:48:34 | u=11067

Re: Some news from Berlin

NaVi_Quebec

Ngaru tìyawr.
Another off-topic challenge?

I asked you to make ask them to make ask the leader to his wife to make ask her mother to make ask her children to relieve his self.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D



msg=584958 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-18 23:57:41 | u=1975

Re: Some news from Berlin

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Kameyu a Kepekmì link=topic=23959.msg584956#msg584956 date=1368920914]
Ngaru tìyawr.
Another off-topic challenge?

I asked you to make ask them to make ask the leader to his wife to make ask her mother to make ask her children to relieve his self.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
[/quote]

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LO3szk9d4vQ/TZngISj7IyI/AAAAAAAABXM/JzTb12c0eLQ/s1600/Challenge_accepted.jpg[/img]

Oel volin futa ngal veykin foru futa eyktanìl vin futa sneyä muntxatel veykin sneyä sa'nokur futa sneyä ayeveng fngä'.



msg=585023 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-19 15:23:26 | u=7704

Re: Some news from Berlin

radek.raszka

Good grammar exercise :) but I don't see this kind of sentences useful in real world.



msg=585026 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-19 15:34:45 | u=11067

Re: Some news from Berlin

NaVi_Quebec

To play [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers]telephone[/url]. ;D



msg=585032 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-19 16:57:54 | u=1975

Re: Some news from Berlin

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=23959.msg585023#msg585023 date=1368977006]
Good grammar exercise :) but I don't see this kind of sentences useful in real world.
[/quote]

Agree. Not often in day to day communication does such a thing come about. Maybe to play a game or to be weird. xD



msg=585041 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-19 18:01:47 | u=11067

Re: Some news from Berlin

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=23959.msg585032#msg585032 date=1368982674]
Maybe to play a game or to be weird. xD
[/quote]
Oeng are already weird.  ;D ;D ;D



msg=585042 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-19 18:02:45 | u=1975

Re: Some news from Berlin

Ean Tirea

Any other cool news from Berlin?



msg=585072 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-19 20:38:47 | u=631

Re: Some news from Berlin

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]To get back to topic… ;)

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=23959.msg584837#msg584837 date=1368840013]Plumps, please correct me if I screwed up something...[/quote]
[font=Georgia]No screw-ups ;) Pawl is going to announce that on his blog anyways… In the car to the train station he said to me that it seemed quite natural to him. There is no way of confusing message and recipient (at least we couldn’t think of any situation) and even if, context would make it clear – same as with the ‘have for (somebody)’ construct.

Ma Tirea,
the topic was never a clear ‘must’ AFAIR. I assume that it can still be used if the written thing is worth mentioning in the topic. I think Pawl said on the blog to your message that it would always mean a ‘defined’ message. The topic couldn’t mean ‘a message’ – the dative can. Or so he translated it when we practiced oe pamrel soli ngar ’upxarer

In other news…

[x] Quite as expected, the genitive of fko is fkeyä
[x] I asked him about the range of ta for the sentence ‘You may make your bow from the wood of hometree’. He said, ta would be fine for that.
[x] He liked tolätxaw nìprrte’ as ‘welcome back’ very much. I wasn’t sure who came up with that but I had the feeling Pawl wanted to know so that he can put it in his excel sheet. Does anybody remember who came up with that?
[x] He said the most natural way to form the questions for the middle voice (how does this drink taste/smell?) would be with pefya / fyape, although he wasn’t entirely opposed to putting -pe+ on the nouns (’ur, sur, zir, fahew, pam)
[x] For lack of a better word he used kxu letokx for ‘violence’ in the radio play. Mind you, in time he may come up with a new root for that.



msg=585080 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-19 22:14:55 | u=7600

Re: Some news from Berlin

Saralyn te Späyu

Irayo for the information, ma Plumps and Blue Elf!  I think I may have already used "ta" that way... :-X



msg=585147 | topic=23959 | board=99 | time=2013-05-20 14:58:18 | u=10850

Re: Some news from Berlin

Taronyu leleioae

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=23959.msg585072#msg585072 date=1368995927]
[x] I asked him about the range of ta for the sentence ‘You may make your bow from the wood of hometree’. He said, ta would be fine for that.
[/quote]

Txantsan!  Good that you found the chance to ask about this.  Now we can describe things with no defined name by what they were made from...



msg=586259 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 13:30:20 | u=631

Ordinals & nume

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Ma frapo,

two short confirmations.

I asked Pawl whether putting nì- on ordinals—as we see in nì’awve—would be productive


[quote=K.Pawl, 5 Jun 2013]I don't see why there shouldn't be nìmuve, nìpxeyve, etc. I think they're fine.[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Second, I asked about the transitivity of nume … and I feared as much ;)

[quote=K.Pawl, 5 Jun 2013]As for nume, I've been thinking of it as intransitive, in the sense of 'acquire knowledge or understanding.'

So to learn X, you use nume with X in the topical:

For example, here's some film dialog they asked me for that was never used:

You must learn to hunt with a bow and arrow.
Tsko swizawfa a tìtaronìri zene fko nivume.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]So, nume is intransitive … huh, quelle surprise! :)



msg=586260 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 13:31:45 | u=1975

Re: Ordinals & nume

Ean Tirea

WOUUUUUUUUUUUU

:o :o :o :o !!!!



msg=586261 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 13:32:17 | u=1550

Re: Ordinals & nume

Taras

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=24024.msg586260#msg586260 date=1370439105]
WOUUUUUUUUUUUU

:o :o :o :o !!!!
[/quote]

:o :o :o :o :o :o



msg=586265 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 13:52:07 | u=430

Re: Ordinals & nume

TehMightyPirate

My goodness, can't believe how long I've been waiting to find out the transivity of nume. Excellent work, ma Plumps.



msg=586269 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 14:06:44 | u=5737

Re: Ordinals & nume

eanunil

nume = vin.?! Wou, eltxur tìtxen si nìtxan  :o :P Irayo ma Plumps! :D

Though I wonder why inan is vtr. ("gain knowledge from sensory input"), while nume is now declared as vin. ("acquire knowledge or understanding")... Tse... pxasìk :P



msg=586272 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 14:13:55 | u=1975

Re: Ordinals & nume

Ean Tirea

Interesting thought:

What did Tsu'tey say in the film about Jake? This alien will learn nothing!  Almost sounded like:

Fìketuwong ke nayume, ke'u



msg=586277 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 14:48:35 | u=3048

Re: Ordinals & nume

Txepsiyu

Wou, indeed! Dictionary updated.



msg=586281 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 15:01:28 | u=10322

Re: Ordinals & nume

Titstewan

I'm really surprised! :o
:)



msg=586286 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 15:50:00 | u=1257

Re: Ordinals & nume

Talis

this is very unexpected  :o but nevertheless good to know, irayo nìtxan!  :D



msg=586290 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 16:36:48 | u=5139

Re: Ordinals & nume

Hrrap

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=24024.msg586281#msg586281 date=1370444488]
I'm really surprised! :o
:)
[/quote]



msg=586293 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 17:21:08 | u=7704

Re: Ordinals & nume

radek.raszka

Well, seems that many texts should be rewritten. It'll require some time to get used to this fact. :o



msg=586300 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 18:00:50 | u=5139

Re: Ordinals & nume

Hrrap

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24024.msg586293#msg586293 date=1370452868]
Well, seems that many texts should be rewritten. It'll require some time to get used to this fact. :o
[/quote]
Exatcly... Wow, the errors I've made  ;)



msg=586302 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 18:34:04 | u=1975

Re: Ordinals & nume

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Le'eylan link=topic=24024.msg586300#msg586300 date=1370455250]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24024.msg586293#msg586293 date=1370452868]
Well, seems that many texts should be rewritten. It'll require some time to get used to this fact. :o
[/quote]
Exatcly... Wow, the errors I've made  ;)
[/quote]
And all the incorrect corrections I've made ..



msg=586308 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 19:02:59 | u=5139

Re: Ordinals & nume

Hrrap

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=24024.msg586302#msg586302 date=1370457244]
[quote author=Le'eylan link=topic=24024.msg586300#msg586300 date=1370455250]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24024.msg586293#msg586293 date=1370452868]
Well, seems that many texts should be rewritten. It'll require some time to get used to this fact. :o
[/quote]
Exatcly... Wow, the errors I've made  ;)
[/quote]
And all the incorrect corrections I've made ..
[/quote]
Haha, such a bad teacher!



msg=586310 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 19:05:29 | u=7206

Re: Ordinals & nume

Kamean

Wow! Unexpectedly! :o :o :o



msg=586319 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 20:37:48 | u=7600

Re: Ordinals & nume

Saralyn te Späyu

Ooops!  I didn't see that coming. :o  But thanks for posting the update, ma Plumps. :)



msg=586329 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-05 21:45:14 | u=11067

Re: Ordinals & nume

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=24024.msg586259#msg586259 date=1370439020]
[font=Georgia]So, nume is intransitive … huh, quelle surprise! :)
[/quote]

[img height=200 width=250]http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/omg/tumblr_ll30dehhaf1qk1ihko1_500.gif[/img][img height=200 width=250]http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/omg/tumblr_lp2epd7QrL1qbhtrto1_500.gif[/img]
What a surprise! :o
So during that moment, everyone tìkxey sami?



msg=586348 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-06 02:18:07 | u=4754

Re: Ordinals & nume

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Lì'fyari 'nume', oeng set zene nivume nìmun!



msg=586350 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-06 02:30:52 | u=1975

Re: Ordinals & nume

Ean Tirea

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24024.msg586348#msg586348 date=1370485087]
Lì'fyari 'nume', oeng set zene nivume nìmun!
[/quote]

Not sure if you meant:

Lì'uri alu nume, ayoeng set zene nivume nìmun!
Now we must learn the word 'nume' again!

srane, zene... but I'm already used to the change. I think. :D



msg=586367 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-06 07:48:47 | u=4754

Re: Ordinals & nume

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=24024.msg586350#msg586350 date=1370485852]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24024.msg586348#msg586348 date=1370485087]
Lì'fyari 'nume', oeng set zene nivume nìmun!
[/quote]

Not sure if you meant:

Lì'uri alu nume, ayoeng set zene nivume nìmun!
Now we must learn the word 'nume' again!

srane, zene... but I'm already used to the change. I think. :D
[/quote]

I never thought of alu being needed there. Good catch! I still don't really understand that word.

The use of lì'fya was a mistake from trying hard to use vocabulary without looking it up to confirm what I thought :(

In any case, I am looking forward to meeting you in person in a few weeks, and maybe even learning something from you ;)



msg=586382 | topic=24024 | board=99 | time=2013-06-06 11:56:40 | u=1975

Re: Ordinals & nume

Ean Tirea

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24024.msg586367#msg586367 date=1370504927]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=24024.msg586350#msg586350 date=1370485852]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24024.msg586348#msg586348 date=1370485087]
Lì'fyari 'nume', oeng set zene nivume nìmun!
[/quote]

Not sure if you meant:

Lì'uri alu nume, ayoeng set zene nivume nìmun!
Now we must learn the word 'nume' again!

srane, zene... but I'm already used to the change. I think. :D
[/quote]

I never thought of alu being needed there. Good catch! I still don't really understand that word.[/quote]

alu is famous for [url=http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/596/01/]appositives[/url]. When you want to elaborate on a phrase or noun, or explain it, while speaking. You'll see alu when stuff like this is being said:

My brother, Txewì, {did this and that and the other}
The word, alu, is kinda confusing
That sentence, the one you just said, needs the word, alu. (<- this sentence would have it twice)

Hope that helps? :D

[quote]
The use of lì'fya was a mistake from trying hard to use vocabulary without looking it up to confirm what I thought :(
[/quote]

ah. Happens to me every now and then, too. No worries. :)

[quote]
In any case, I am looking forward to meeting you in person in a few weeks, and maybe even learning something from you ;)
[/quote]

Ah yes! :D I look forward to meeting you too, and everyone else. Let it be KNOWN that I WILL be speaking as much Na'vi as possible. HRH Pawl or whoever is probably gonna be tired of interpreting me. ;D I hope to teach much, too. Even if little subtle things. :D



msg=590094 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-27 20:06:12 | u=430

Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

TehMightyPirate

Some questions I managed to get quick answers from Karyu Pawl today:

Nested causatives: (irayo ma Tirea Aean for reminding me we needed this)

Karyu Pawl didn't have a ready answer to this question. He was opposed to anything combining <eyk> with fa- but liked the idea of using <eyk> with fwa/futa. He proposed that this would be ideal for the LEP/community to tackle by giving him a few suggestions that he can look over.

Nì + ordinal numbers is productive up to a "to be determined" point. i.e. Twenty-seventh isn't used often in English.

Fì + ay will generally turn into fay+ especially in rapid or casual speech but in formal or precise speech it may be fìay+.

However, fra + ay will always be fray+.



msg=590096 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-27 20:10:23 | u=430

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

TehMightyPirate

If anyone has a good quick question for karyu Pawl today or tomorrow, please let me know.



msg=590098 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-27 20:14:22 | u=10322

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

Titstewan

Oe!
-->
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/questions-about-the-language/]Fìtsenge, fìtsenge!![/url] ;D
Yeah, these points are listed there. ;)



msg=590100 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-27 20:20:23 | u=7704

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

radek.raszka

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=24215.msg590094#msg590094 date=1374955572]
Some questions I managed to get quick answers from Karyu Pawl today:

Nested causatives: (irayo ma Tirea Aean for reminding me we needed this)

Karyu Pawl didn't have a ready answer to this question. He was opposed to anything combining <eyk> with fa- but liked the idea of using <eyk> with fwa/futa. He proposed that this would be ideal for the LEP/community to tackle by giving him a few suggestions that he can look over.

Nì + ordinal numbers is productive up to a "to be determined" point. i.e. Twenty-seventh isn't used often in English.

Fì + ay will generally turn into fay+ especially in rapid or casual speech but in formal or precise speech it may be fìay+.

However, fra + ay will always be fray+.
[/quote]
Sooooo, fray+ is now official?



msg=590109 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-27 21:27:47 | u=430

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

TehMightyPirate

Yes,  fray+ is now official.

I will attempt to imprison Pawl politely and answer more questions.



msg=590114 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-28 03:57:38 | u=430

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=24215.msg590098#msg590098 date=1374956062]
Oe!
-->
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/questions-about-the-language/]Fìtsenge, fìtsenge!![/url] ;D
Yeah, these points are listed there. ;)
[/quote]

Some further details from Karyu Pawl:

Ohenga Pawl confirmed this word and we saw were it appears in the film during Norm's "a little formal" speech. He implied that he forgot about it in the film and also implied that any other honorific pronouns do not exist. I have to ask him about the sì construction mentioned in horen. Finally, he wanted to confirm if ohenga was indeed in his dictionary.

Tsala is confirmed unless otherwise stated by karyu Pawl. He didn't want to commit 100% to something without thinking a tiny bit more about it but saw nothing wrong with tsala.

Finally, I was told that we didn't have any canonical quote or ruling on nì- being productive. If that is the case then it is confirmed that, while it is right most of the time, it is not productive.





msg=590117 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-28 08:04:48 | u=631

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

Plumps83

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=24215.msg590094#msg590094 date=1374955572]
Nested causatives: (irayo ma Tirea Aean for reminding me we needed this) [/quote]
[font=Georgia]I don’t remember this discussion … what are nested causatives?

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=24215.msg590094#msg590094 date=1374955572]However, fra + ay will always be fray+.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]I think we had this discussion somewhere else? How do we translate something like that? I always translated fra- as ‘every’. How does this makes sense with the plural of a word?


[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=24215.msg590114#msg590114 date=1374983858]Finally, I was told that we didn't have any canonical quote or ruling on nì- being productive. If that is the case then it is confirmed that, while it is right most of the time, it is not productive.[/quote]
[font=Georgia] :o :o :o :o But we do!
In one of the very earliest blog posts “[url=http://naviteri.org/2010/07/diminutives-conversational-expressions/]Diminutives; Conversational Expressions[/url]” he stated under 3.:
[quote][font=Book Antiqua]Finally, some affixes are midway on the productivity scale. The adverb-former nì- is productive when used with adjectives: nìngay ‘truly,’ nìwin ‘fast,’ nìsti[desc=this is obviously wrong, sti is not an adjective]*[/desc] ‘angrily,’ nìftue ‘easily,’ etc. But it’s sometimes also used with other parts of speech—nìtut ‘continually,’ nì’eyng ‘in response,’ nì’awtu ‘alone’—and these words have to be learned as separate lexical items; you can’t take them as patterns on which to base new forms.
[/quote]
[font=Georgia]That’s as good a ruling as any!



msg=590121 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-28 11:43:37 | u=10322

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

Titstewan

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=24215.msg590117#msg590117 date=1374998688]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=24215.msg590094#msg590094 date=1374955572]However, fra + ay will always be fray+.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]I think we had this discussion somewhere else? How do we translate something like that? I always translated fra- as ‘every’. How does this makes sense with the plural of a word?[/quote]

I think fra- doesn't mean 'every' only, it can mean also as 'all'.
Maybe you will see a nice difference and maybe a translation of fray+:

Frakelutral lor lu.
Every house are beautiful.
Jedes Haus ist schön.


Frayhelutral lor lu.
All houses are beautiful.
Alle Häuser sind schön.


OR (this idea I had)

Frayhelutral lor lu.
Every of the Houses are beautiful.
Jedes der Häuser ist schön.



msg=590126 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-28 14:46:48 | u=430

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=24215.msg590117#msg590117 date=1374998688]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=24215.msg590094#msg590094 date=1374955572]
Nested causatives: (irayo ma Tirea Aean for reminding me we needed this) [/quote]
[font=Georgia]I don’t remember this discussion … what are nested causatives?
[/quote]

Nested causatives are: he caused her to cause him to cause her to (verb) him.

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=24215.msg590117#msg590117 date=1374998688]
[font=Georgia] :o :o :o :o But we do!
In one of the very earliest blog posts “[url=http://naviteri.org/2010/07/diminutives-conversational-expressions/]Diminutives; Conversational Expressions[/url]” he stated under 3.:
[quote][font=Book Antiqua]Finally, some affixes are midway on the productivity scale. The adverb-former nì- is productive when used with adjectives: nìngay ‘truly,’ nìwin ‘fast,’ nìsti[desc=this is obviously wrong, sti is not an adjective]*[/desc] ‘angrily,’ nìftue ‘easily,’ etc. But it’s sometimes also used with other parts of speech—nìtut ‘continually,’ nì’eyng ‘in response,’ nì’awtu ‘alone’—and these words have to be learned as separate lexical items; you can’t take them as patterns on which to base new forms.
[/quote]
[font=Georgia]That’s as good a ruling as any!
[/quote]

That fits with what Paul told me last night. It was such a quick anecdote that he didn't have time to go into much detail.

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=24215.msg590121#msg590121 date=1375011817]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=24215.msg590117#msg590117 date=1374998688]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=24215.msg590094#msg590094 date=1374955572]However, fra + ay will always be fray+.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]I think we had this discussion somewhere else? How do we translate something like that? I always translated fra- as ‘every’. How does this makes sense with the plural of a word?[/quote]

I think fra- doesn't mean 'every' only, it can mean also as 'all'.
Maybe you will see a nice difference and maybe a translation of fray+:

Frakelutral lor lu.
Every house are beautiful.
Jedes Haus ist schön.


Frayhelutral lor lu.
All houses are beautiful.
Alle Häuser sind schön.


OR (this idea I had)

Frayhelutral lor lu.
Every of the Houses are beautiful.
Jedes der Häuser ist schön.

[/quote]

Your examples are how I pictured fray+ being used, something along the lines of each of these things. I will attempt to confirm this with Pawl.



msg=590157 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-29 05:11:22 | u=430

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=24215.msg590121#msg590121 date=1375011817]

Frayhelutral lor lu.
Every of the Houses are beautiful.
Jedes der Häuser ist schön.

[/quote]

Paul used this example for a translation but his exact phrase was "All of these houses are..."



msg=590159 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-29 05:25:03 | u=10322

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

Titstewan

:D Great!
Frayhelutral lu...
All of these houses are...
Jedes dieser Häuser ist...




msg=590245 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-30 20:10:05 | u=4754

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I talked with K. Pawl about alu, which has always been a source of trouble for me. He said that you can think of it as 'which is' or 'who is', alu ;) very helpful in understanding how to use it. But he stopped short of thinking we needed to change the dictionary definition. He explained that thinking of it as a plus lu is very helpful as well.

One item from last year, which I am not sure I have ever mentioned, is a clarification on the difference between vey and tsngan. Vey refers to any food of animal origin (could include eggs or milk), but is primarily meant to mean 'meat'. This could of course, include fowl or fish (or insect). Tsngan refers specifically to meat obtained from terrestrial animals (yerik, talioang, etc.).

In general, there was a lot of very useful information in Pawl's '102 presentation', especially relating to conversational Na'vi. And partly as a result, a lot more Na'vi was being spoken at this meetup!



msg=590257 | topic=24215 | board=99 | time=2013-07-30 21:42:21 | u=631

Re: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I think I saw this distinction between vey and tsngan somewhere :-\\ but great to have confirmation.

I’m looking forward to hearing/seeing the 102 presentation :D



msg=591099 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-12 19:01:41 | u=7704

How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

radek.raszka

Recently I was solving question, how to create opposite or negative adjectives and adverbs ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/creating-negativeopposite-adjectives/]in this thread[/url]). As it seemed that we do not have safe way how to do it, I asked our biggest authority and today I received reply. Paul promised to release these information also on Naviteri, but for those impatient here's short excerpt

[quote=Paul]NEGATIVE ADJECTIVES
Here are some pairs we already know about:
teng 'same, equal' keteng 'different'
eyawr 'correct' keyawr 'incorrect'
tsuktswa' 'forgettable'ketsuktswa' 'unforgettable'
lesar 'useful'kelsar 'useless'
lefpomtokx 'healthy'kelfpomtokx 'unhealthy'
lekin 'necessary'kelkin 'unnecessary'
letsunslu 'possible'keltsun 'impossible'

So from these examples we can derive a rule:

To form the negative of an adjective, use the negative prefix ke-. Note, however, that for le- adjectives, *kele... > kel...  There are also some idiosyncrasies: for example, keltsunslu is usually reduced to simply keltsun. Also, *keeyawr > keyawr by the general rule that two identical vowels coalesce into one.

This is a productive process when there aren't separate lexical items in the dictionary like the ones you pointed out: tsawl ~ hì'i, koak ~ 'ewan, etc. So there's no *ketsawl, *kehì'i, *kekoak, *ke'ewan, just as in English we don't have *unyoung, *unold, *unbig, *unsmall.
[/quote]
Now I found unsolved problem - how to form "impatient"? By rule: ke + lemweypey > *kelmweypey. Question sent back to Paul.

[quote=Paul]NEGATIVE ADVERBS
here too, a couple of dictionary entires point the way to the rule:
nìkelkin 'unnecessarily'
nìktungzup 'carefully, firmly'


In the first example, - is added to a negative adjective to form a negative adverb.

In the second, - is added to a negative verb: + (ke + tungzup). That is, "in a way that doesn't drop" or (in fractured English) undroppingly. :-)

So negative adverbs generally start with + ke, since they're usually built up from - along with a negative adjective or verb. But contractions occur. For example, + ke usually becomes nìk-, as in nìktungzup.

So what would "impatiently" be? Well, remember that maweypey is a verb meaning "be patient." "Be impatient" is simply ke maweypey.

The adverb "patiently" is derived this way: + maweypey = nìmaweypey > nìmweypey. (The unstressed a has dropped.)

In the same way, the adverb "impatiently" is derived as follows: + ke + maweypey = nìkemaweypey > nìkemweypey. (Again, the unstressed a has dropped, which means the e of ke cannot drop.)[/quote]

And that all for now, ma eylan...
See update here: [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/how-to-form-negativeopposite-adjectivesadverbs/15/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/how-to-form-negativeopposite-adjectivesadverbs/15/[/url]



msg=591107 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-12 19:12:14 | u=10322

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

Titstewan

So, we can use ke- for adjectives except some exceptions?
Also nì- + ke- / nìk- / nìke-?



msg=591108 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-12 19:13:39 | u=8486

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

Quantum1423

kekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekeTXANTSAN FÌ'U LU!



msg=591110 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-12 19:18:53 | u=7600

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

Saralyn te Späyu

Txantsana tìpawm sì tì'eyng akosman. :D

Irayo, ma tsmukan (sì Pawl, nìfrakrr.) :)



msg=591116 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-12 19:33:44 | u=7704

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=24262.msg591107#msg591107 date=1376334734]
So, we can use ke- for adjectives except some exceptions?
Also nì- + ke- / nìk- / nìke-?
[/quote]
Yes. If negative/opposite adjective already exists in dictionary, usage of ke- is forbidden. Otherwise you are free to use it.



msg=591117 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-12 19:35:53 | u=10322

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

Titstewan

Great!
And adverbs too? :-\\



msg=591120 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-12 20:29:32 | u=631

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Good update!  :D

But I still think that this is only partly productive … there are still a few adjectives that we don’t have the opposite word of. So I would be very careful to build this simply with ke- because in the future development there could be a new word shape for the opposite word.  :-\\



msg=591131 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-12 21:11:18 | u=430

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

TehMightyPirate

Productive, except when it's not. ;-)  Na'vi is becoming more and more like a natural language.



msg=591164 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-13 07:09:22 | u=7704

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

radek.raszka

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=24262.msg591120#msg591120 date=1376339372]
[font=Georgia]Good update!  :D

But I still think that this is only partly productive … there are still a few adjectives that we don’t have the opposite word of. So I would be very careful to build this simply with ke- because in the future development there could be a new word shape for the opposite word.  :-\\

[/quote]
question is whether such missing opposites will be created, when we have this new way.... But of course if they will, former opposites created using ke- must be forgotten  ;D



msg=591166 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-13 07:41:24 | u=7600

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

Saralyn te Späyu

Just occurred to me that now "not straight" is keyey.  I'm hoping context will make it clear from "mistakes". ;)

Na'vi is becoming more like a natural language everyday. ;D



msg=591168 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-13 07:59:01 | u=7704

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

radek.raszka

[quote author=Alyara Arati link=topic=24262.msg591166#msg591166 date=1376379684]
Just occurred to me that now "not straight" is keyey.  I'm hoping context will make it clear from "mistakes". ;)

Na'vi is becoming more like a natural language everyday. ;D
[/quote]
There's no problem, if it is used as attribute, as it gets -a- affix. Can be problem when used in "lu" sentence. This is probably candidate for its own opposite listed in dictionary.



msg=591199 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-13 15:14:06 | u=430

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24262.msg591168#msg591168 date=1376380741]
[quote author=Alyara Arati link=topic=24262.msg591166#msg591166 date=1376379684]
Just occurred to me that now "not straight" is keyey.  I'm hoping context will make it clear from "mistakes". ;)

Na'vi is becoming more like a natural language everyday. ;D
[/quote]
There's no problem, if it is used as attribute, as it gets -a- affix. Can be problem when used in "lu" sentence. This is probably candidate for its own opposite listed in dictionary.
[/quote]

Oh, oh, oh! This would be awesome for a Na'vi proverb referring to something as not straight being a mistake. Forgive the problematic connotations in English but I for one think that having homonyms like this can add a lot of fun.



msg=591239 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-13 21:31:18 | u=631

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

Plumps83

But they would not be homonyms
;)

One is pronounced keyey the other one keyey. Once again a difference in pronunciation :)



msg=591248 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-13 22:11:56 | u=11067

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

NaVi_Quebec

Thanks to the amazing Karyu Pawl!



msg=591289 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-14 18:27:57 | u=430

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=24262.msg591239#msg591239 date=1376429478]
But they would not be homonyms
;)

One is pronounced keyey the other one keyey. Once again a difference in pronunciation :)
[/quote]

You're right! Txantsan! I think we'll have another example of words sharing the same syllables but having different stresses like tute.



msg=591295 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-14 19:51:53 | u=7704

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

radek.raszka

And it's time for update. *Kele- > kel- rule was precised:

[quote=oe]how to create "impatient"?
we have le+maweypey > lemweypey. According rules you gave me I should just add ke-, and if le- is present, it changes to kel-.
So, ke+lemweypey > *kelmweypey, what breaks rules for syllable creation.[/quote]
And here's reply:
[quote=Paul]
Yes, you're right. That is an additional little detail to consider.
The same problem occurs in "impatiently." As I mentioned yesterday, I derived that word like this:
In the same way, the adverb "impatiently" is derived as follows: nì + ke + maweypey = nìkemaweypey > nìkemweypey. (Again, the unstressed a has dropped, which means the e of ke cannot drop.)

The question here is what happens to the underlying form *nìkemaweypey. There are two unstressed vowels that are eligible for dropping:

*nìkemaweypey

I feel pretty certain that as the language evolved, one or the other of these vowels would drop. But which one?

If the e drops, we get nìkmaweypey.

If the a drops, we get nìkemweypey.

Either of these developments could be justified. I went with the second form, which sounds more natural to me. So it's the a of mawey that dropped.

The situation with the adjective form is similar.

The underlying form is *kelemaweypey. Again, the two unstressed vowels eligible for dropping are:

*kelemaweypey

If the e drops, we get kelmaweypey.

If the a drops, we get kelemweypey.

Again, I went with the second form. This has the advantage of giving us the nice pairs lemweypey/kelemweypey.

So a more accurate form of the "kele-" rule is:

*kele- > kel-, unless it would create an impermissible consonant cluster, in which case it remains kele-
.
[/quote]
So, enjoy improved rule and use it carefully!



msg=591316 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-14 22:49:41 | u=10322

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

Titstewan

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=24262.msg591199#msg591199 date=1376406846]
Oh, oh, oh! This would be awesome for a Na'vi proverb referring to something as not straight being a mistake. Forgive the problematic connotations in English but I for one think that having homonyms like this can add a lot of fun.[/quote]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-customs-and-culture/navi-proverbs/msg591315/#msg591315]Nari si fìtsenge[/url]. ;)



msg=591395 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-16 02:35:10 | u=4754

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Txantsan! This is all really useful! So, I now understand that an unbound ke is for verbs only. The enclitic form is for adjectives and adverbs. And the existence of kele- or kel- answers a long-standing question I have had, which is why some words, like 'impossible', is keltsun and not *ketsun.

This is also consistent in behavior with another discussion going on [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/short-forms/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/short-forms/[/url] , where the combination of tsa- and an adposition is being discussed. Even though the two subjects are not related, we see a lot of interesting things about the way affixes combine with words. This is apparently, an amportant characteristic of the Na'vi language. (Now, if I can just get this stuff to sink into my thick head!)



msg=591465 | topic=24262 | board=99 | time=2013-08-16 21:02:39 | u=430

Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs

TehMightyPirate

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=24262.msg591316#msg591316 date=1376520581]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=24262.msg591199#msg591199 date=1376406846]
Oh, oh, oh! This would be awesome for a Na'vi proverb referring to something as not straight being a mistake. Forgive the problematic connotations in English but I for one think that having homonyms like this can add a lot of fun.[/quote]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-customs-and-culture/navi-proverbs/msg591315/#msg591315]Nari si fìtsenge[/url]. ;)
[/quote]

Very nice, I like the ideas people came up with.



msg=592496 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-29 07:31:57 | u=631

Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Ma frapo,

in Tìtstewan’s [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/tpg/]Pronoun Guide[/url], and looking at the Dictionary, the question came up of how to pronounce the words connected with oe (stress and whether oe is treated as one or two syllable(s)).

Here is what I got from Karyu Pawl:

[font=Georgia]pronoun[font=Georgia]pronounce as
[font=Georgia]oengo.ENG.

[quote=K. Pawl, 28 Aug 2013]The stress on the second syllable "feels" right here: it puts the emphasis on "I and YOU," and it contrasts better with oe.[/quote]
[font=Georgia]After that oe becomes we- before case endings:
[font=Georgia]pronoun[font=Georgia]pronounce as
[font=Georgia]oengat(i)we.NGAT/we.NGA.ti
[font=Georgia]oengeyäwe.NGE.yä
[font=Georgia]oengar(u)we.NGAR/we.NGA.ru
[font=Georgia]oengariwe.NGA.ri


[font=Georgia]This stress on the ‘you’-part of inclusive forms is also applied to the trial (which, I recognised, are not listed in the Dictionary yet). So,
[font=Georgia]pronoun[font=Georgia]pronounce as
[font=Georgia]pxoengpxo.ENG
[font=Georgia]pxoengalpxo.e.NGAL
[font=Georgia]pxoengat(i)pxo.e.NGAT/pxo.e.NGA.ti
[font=Georgia]pxoengeyäpxo.e.NGE.yä
[font=Georgia]pxoengar(u)pxo.e.NGAR/pxo.e.NGA.ru
[font=Georgia]pxoengaripxo.e.NGA.ri


[font=Georgia]The exclusive trial forms (pxoe, pxoel etc.) are stressed on the first syllable.

And what we already got right is that all forms of the long plural (except for ayoe of course) are pronounced aywe-

The pronunciation of oe as we- before suffixes is applied to combinations with adpositions as well, to which he said:

[quote=K. Pawl, 28 Aug 2013]Even in careful speech, oeru and oehu are pronounced "weru" and "wehu."[/quote][font=Georgia](which is a bit of a redefinition, IIRC. I got it in my head somewhere that he said at one point that in careful speech oeru could also be pronounced as 3 syllables :-\\  but be that as it may…)

Most of this was discussed and not via email, so I can’t quote that much. If I missed something or got something wrong, ma Prrton, please chime in ;)


edit: typos



msg=592512 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-29 11:14:12 | u=10322

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Titstewan

Soooo, I should go to change oeng to oeng?

Edit:
oengaru etc. to oengaru?



msg=592517 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-29 12:06:39 | u=7704

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

radek.raszka

well, this confirmation doesn't make me too happy (pronounce oe as we-), but it's rule now and must be followed. After few weeks it will be no problem.
Fortunately, I write more than speak, what makes things easier ;D ;D ;D
[quote]Soooo, I should go to change oeng to oeng?[/quote]
Sure. ng  is not syllable, it's just letter



msg=592519 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-29 12:12:13 | u=10322

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Titstewan

Well, I will be sure, before I touching the 43k code monster... :-X



msg=592534 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-29 14:29:18 | u=7600

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Saralyn te Späyu

Well, there go my diphthongs on the "oe"s.  Sad, I like a good diphthong.  Oh well.  I will adapt. :)



msg=592537 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-29 14:45:08 | u=631

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Plumps83

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24323.msg592517#msg592517 date=1377777999][quote]Soooo, I should go to change oeng to oeng?[/quote]
Sure. ng  is not syllable, it's just letter[/quote]
[font=Georgia]But eng is ;)

[quote author=Alyara Arati link=topic=24323.msg592534#msg592534 date=1377786558]
Well, there go my diphthongs on the "oe"s.  Sad, I like a good diphthong.  Oh well.  I will adapt. :)[/quote]
[font=Georgia]Technically, oe is not a diphthong ;D  Sorry, I’ll stop being a *sìlronsemtxìm ;D



msg=592541 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-29 14:54:23 | u=7600

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Saralyn te Späyu

Firstly, that was a joke.

Secondly, I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue with you.

Thirdly:[quote]Diphthongs often form when separate vowels are run together in rapid speech during a conversation.[/quote] from Wikipedia because of #2 and #1.



msg=592552 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-29 18:13:51 | u=7206

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Kamean

[quote]Here is what I got from Karyu Pawl:[/quote]Irayo! I have always pronounced that way. :)



msg=592663 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-31 02:04:00 | u=4754

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Kamean link=topic=24323.msg592552#msg592552 date=1377800031]
[quote]Here is what I got from Karyu Pawl:[/quote]Irayo! I have always pronounced that way. :)
[/quote]

I have always used the now-illegal 'careful speech' forms. That started to change during the 'Na'vi 102 lesson' at Avatarmeet this year. Although some of this has been hard to remember because I was in excruciating pain at the time (my right hip was 'blown out'), there were some very siginificant things presented there, that makes this worth reviewing by everyone.

This information is important (and different) enough that, IMHO, it belongs in a new appendix of the dictionary. I would offer to write such a beast (it ultimately needs to be 'translated' into LaTeX), but I think Tìtstewan should have first crack at it because he has done a lot of the groundwork. This appendix should show the various pronoun forms in a compact manner, and show the special rules involved in pronouncing this very important class of words. Additionally, all these words that appear in the dictionary need to be checked for the proper IPA. I suspect we have a mix of 'old' and 'new' forms.



msg=592672 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-31 04:53:19 | u=1975

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Ean Tirea

Why not just put the proper IPA in all the current entries, and in The Pronoun Guide (by Tìtstewan), put the Proper stress / IPA, and in Nutshell and Horen, do that as well?

I honestly don't think there is anything [desc=ok maybe just a little bit]shocking[/desc] or crazy about these pronouns. It just has one 3-part rule:

If it ends in "oe", then the "oe" is two syllables and the stress on the "o part".
Else if it ends in "ng" and a case/suffix is applied, then the "oe" is one syllable, the "a" from nga comes back, and the stress is on "nga".
Else if it ends in "ng", then the "oe" is one syllable and the stress is on the "eng part".



msg=592678 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-31 08:15:55 | u=4754

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Maybe you are right. But I need to post that rule in bold type and memorize it!

Is anyone currently maintaining NiaN? Can anyone even maintain it?



msg=592679 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-08-31 08:18:06 | u=1975

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Ean Tirea

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24323.msg592678#msg592678 date=1377936955]
Maybe you are right. But I need to post that rule in bold type and memorize it!

Is anyone currently maintaining NiaN? Can anyone even maintain it?
[/quote]

NiaN is currently being revised.



msg=592772 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-09-01 09:13:04 | u=4754

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=24323.msg592679#msg592679 date=1377937086]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24323.msg592678#msg592678 date=1377936955]
Maybe you are right. But I need to post that rule in bold type and memorize it!

Is anyone currently maintaining NiaN? Can anyone even maintain it?
[/quote]

NiaN is currently being revised.
[/quote]

Txantsan nìwotx! That IS a good thing. A lot of folks here got there start in Na'vi with this document. Is it NeoTrekkerz who is updating it?



msg=592786 | topic=24323 | board=99 | time=2013-09-01 16:15:16 | u=1975

Re: Confirmation on pronunciation of oe words

Ean Tirea

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24323.msg592772#msg592772 date=1378026784]
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=24323.msg592679#msg592679 date=1377937086]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24323.msg592678#msg592678 date=1377936955]
Maybe you are right. But I need to post that rule in bold type and memorize it!

Is anyone currently maintaining NiaN? Can anyone even maintain it?
[/quote]

NiaN is currently being revised.
[/quote]

Txantsan nìwotx! That IS a good thing. A lot of folks here got there start in Na'vi with this document. Is it NeoTrekkerz who is updating it?
[/quote]

No, NeoTrekkerz has given NiaN Revision Team a copy of the source document and it is being revised on his behalf, and returned to him for final say before publication.



msg=595091 | topic=24474 | board=99 | time=2013-10-04 10:18:47 | u=631

prefer X to Y

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]A few days ago, I asked about this construct in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/prefer-x-to-y/]Intermediate Section[/url].

I got a response from K. Pawl about that:


[quote]So . . . preferring X to Y.

I thought about that a lot, but in the end I think the simple solution that you gave is the best one:

Oel payti nulnew to swoat.

(I prefer to separate X and Y by nulnew, since it avoids the possible ambiguity of what the to attaches to.

My analysis was something like this:

Nulnew, obviously, comes from nì'ul + new, 'want more.'

So how would you say, "I want X more than Y"? Here the "more" applies to a verb.

Well, a related construction would be,

Oe ngato yom nì'ul. 'I eat more than you (do).'

So similarly, 'want more' would be:

Oel X-ti to Y-ti new nì'ul.

But new nì'ul > nulnew.

So we have:

Oel X-ti to Y-ti nulnew. Or: Oel X-ti nulnew to Y-ti.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Simple as that :D and wonderful.



msg=595095 | topic=24474 | board=99 | time=2013-10-04 10:31:18 | u=10322

Re: prefer X to Y

Titstewan

Tewti! :D
Txantsana fmawn ulte irayo ma Plumps!



msg=595104 | topic=24474 | board=99 | time=2013-10-04 10:51:30 | u=5737

Re: prefer X to Y

eanunil

Wou, irayo ma Plumps :) Interesting, especially Paul's thoughts behind this.



msg=595153 | topic=24474 | board=99 | time=2013-10-04 20:40:04 | u=1975

Re: prefer X to Y

Ean Tirea

Irayo ma Plumps! Txantsana fmawn. I'm glad it came out to be the most natural, expected way.



msg=595170 | topic=24474 | board=99 | time=2013-10-04 22:44:06 | u=4754

Re: prefer X to Y

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Irayo, ma Plumps. I like it when things are simple and logical!



msg=595198 | topic=24477 | board=99 | time=2013-10-05 04:48:44 | u=7600

Over, Under, and Quickly

Saralyn te Späyu

I contacted Karyu Pawl about these, some time ago, and the answers to these questions have come back positive. :D

[quote]Äo can definitely mean either 'under' or 'below'; io can mean either 'over' or 'above'; nìwin can mean either 'fast' or 'quickly.' The example sentences you gave are fine.[/quote]

Ralu tolìran äo vul apxa.
Ralu walked under the large branch.

Oe tswayon io AyVitrayä Ramunong.
I fly over the Tree of Souls

Edit: Pawl also said that he would contact Markì with this information, so that's already done. :)



msg=595200 | topic=24477 | board=99 | time=2013-10-05 04:57:35 | u=1975

Re: Over, Under, and Quickly

Ean Tirea

Cool!

Nothing crazy or unexpected here. :) Irayo!



msg=595212 | topic=24477 | board=99 | time=2013-10-05 10:44:11 | u=631

Re: Over, Under, and Quickly

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I agree. But it’s good to have confirmation. :D



msg=595218 | topic=24477 | board=99 | time=2013-10-05 12:00:59 | u=10322

Re: Over, Under, and Quickly

Titstewan

NICE! Finally! That's awesome.
Irayo ma Alyara Arati! :)



msg=595226 | topic=24477 | board=99 | time=2013-10-05 13:42:44 | u=10850

Re: Over, Under, and Quickly

Taronyu leleioae

This is very helpful.  Thanks to Alyara/LEP for submitting and getting a clarification.

What this also validates, is that Na'vi adpositions have the usage flexibility for describing both static and dynamic (moving) positions. 
This makes sense, but now it's confirmed.



msg=595231 | topic=24477 | board=99 | time=2013-10-05 17:54:29 | u=7206

Re: Over, Under, and Quickly

Kamean

Irayo ma Aylara! :)



msg=595528 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-09 07:00:01 | u=10322

If nì- will attach at 'e'...

Titstewan

Kaltxì ma frapo!

Oe polawm Karyu Pawlur lì'uteri alu nìyawr ulte lu oeru 'upxare atxantsan. :)

[quote='Upxare ta Karyu Pawl]You've done a very nice job of analysis! What you've determined about - being added to a root that starts with e is absolutely correct. It does indeed depend on the stress.

If the stress is on the e, the e "overpowers" the ì of -, which then drops. So, as you've noted,

*nìetrìp > netrìp

But if the e is unstressed, then the ì of - overpowers the e. So:

*nìeyawr > nìyawr

You've determined the rules correctly!

There are some exceptions, though. For example, in the Weaving Song, there's this line:

Katot täftxu oel nìean nìrim   'I weave the rhythm in yellow and blue'

Here the unusual word nìean 'in blue' has remained in its original form, without becoming *nean.
[/quote]


So, if - will attach at an unstressed 'e' of a root word, the letter will drop, but if the 'e' is stressed, the 'ì' of - will drop.
Note the exceptions of nìean.

E: Typo



msg=595531 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-09 07:30:12 | u=1550

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Taras

Txantsan! Set tsun fko sivar fìkorenit nìskepek ;) Irayo :)

[spoiler]
Excellent! Now we may use this rule officially ;) Thanks :)
[/spoiler]



msg=595535 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-09 08:02:09 | u=1975

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Ean Tirea

Awesome! I suspected this to be the case. :D



msg=595567 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-09 18:23:54 | u=7206

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Kamean

Irayo seiyi! :)



msg=595600 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-09 20:55:36 | u=4754

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Very good, but another little rule to try to remember. Na'vi really is becoming a 'real' language! ;)

I should come up with rhymes to remember stuff like this such as the Englsih 'when two vowels walk the lane, the first one states its name'. (refers to the pronunciation of words like 'boar', 'meat', 'main', etc.)



msg=595606 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-09 21:19:11 | u=10850

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Taronyu leleioae

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24494.msg595600#msg595600 date=1381352136]
Very good, but another little rule to try to remember. Na'vi really is becoming a 'real' language! ;)

I should come up with rhymes to remember stuff like this such as the English 'when two vowels walk the lane, the first one states its name'. (refers to the pronunciation of words like 'boar', 'meat', 'main', etc.)
[/quote]
HRH!  The (English) I before E rule in Na'vi... 
Technically as it's supposed to be a spoken language only, these will have to be tawtute constructs, since the Na'vi can't spell or write...  At least, not up to this point in Na'vi.

[spoiler]
ALTHOUGH...  I find it perhaps contradictory... because if one looks at the scene from the Extended Edition in Grace's schoolhouse, you can clearly see not only a human body physiology chart, but an old school chalk board (seriously, they shipped a chalk board to Pandora?).  On the chalk board, has simply math with addition..., need to study closer but I see the numbers listed 1-10.  I think, so... ?  Plus there are shapes (circle, triangle, square), and... an entire English alphabet upper and lower case on lines, such as old school grade school cursive writing (which is no longer taught).[/spoiler]



msg=595610 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-09 21:29:42 | u=1975

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Ean Tirea

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24494.msg595600#msg595600 date=1381352136]
Very good, but another little rule to try to remember. Na'vi really is becoming a 'real' language! ;)

I should come up with rhymes to remember stuff like this such as the Englsih 'when two vowels walk the lane, the first one states its name'. (refers to the pronunciation of words like 'boar', 'meat', 'main', etc.)
[/quote]

like

ì eats up e except if it's stressed:
then e eats up ì because it's the best

? :D



msg=595611 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-09 21:32:42 | u=10322

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Titstewan

LOL
My try:
Unstressed e will beat by ì, stressed e will beat ì.



msg=595620 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-10 00:50:41 | u=7600

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Saralyn te Späyu

No ì messes with a stressed >:( e >:(, man, they're too strong to take them out.  Doesn't rhyme, but it gets the rule right, at least. ;D



msg=595630 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-10 09:00:49 | u=7704

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

radek.raszka

Well, another problem has solution :)
But another rises up:
[quote]Katot täftxu oel nìean nìrim  'I weave the rhythm in yellow and blue'[/quote]
This reminds me [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/08/mipa-ayopin-mipa-ayliu-new-colors-new-words/]Naviteri post about colors[/url]:
[quote]To further subdivide the spectrum and name colors more specifically, Na’vi has 3 distinct mechanisms:

(1)    Na-constructions
(2)    Adverbial modification with nì-
(3)    Compounding[/quote]
Methods (2) and (3) still weren't published. I asked Paul some time before about method (2), but my question was queued - and not answered yet...



msg=595631 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-10 10:12:42 | u=1975

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Ean Tirea

Are rìkean and ta'lengean examples of 3) compounding?

I think by 2) he may have meant something like ean nìNa'vi or similar? Or even ean nìrim (yellow-green? Yellowly green?)



msg=595634 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-10 12:10:23 | u=10322

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Titstewan

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24494.msg595630#msg595630 date=1381395649]
[quote]Katot täftxu oel nìean nìrim   'I weave the rhythm in yellow and blue'[/quote]
This reminds me [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/08/mipa-ayopin-mipa-ayliu-new-colors-new-words/]Naviteri post about colors[/url]:
[quote]To further subdivide the spectrum and name colors more specifically, Na’vi has 3 distinct mechanisms:

(1)    Na-constructions
(2)    Adverbial modification with nì-
(3)    Compounding[/quote]
Methods (2) and (3) still weren't published. I asked Paul some time before about method (2), but my question was queued - and not answered yet...[/quote]

Do you have asked Pawl about this yet or shall I ask him about that? (I want to ask him about the exceptions like nìean and maybe this is "method 2") :-\\



msg=595645 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-10 16:52:34 | u=1975

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=24494.msg595634#msg595634 date=1381407023]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24494.msg595630#msg595630 date=1381395649]
[quote]Katot täftxu oel nìean nìrim  'I weave the rhythm in yellow and blue'[/quote]
This reminds me [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/08/mipa-ayopin-mipa-ayliu-new-colors-new-words/]Naviteri post about colors[/url]:
[quote]To further subdivide the spectrum and name colors more specifically, Na’vi has 3 distinct mechanisms:

(1)    Na-constructions
(2)    Adverbial modification with nì-
(3)    Compounding[/quote]
Methods (2) and (3) still weren't published. I asked Paul some time before about method (2), but my question was queued - and not answered yet...[/quote]

Do you have asked Pawl about this yet or shall I ask him about that? (I want to ask him about the exceptions like nìean and maybe this is "method 2") :-\\
[/quote]

go ahead, because I did not ask him anything.



msg=595650 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-10 17:33:24 | u=10322

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Titstewan

This question was adressed to Blue Elf.

Edit:
I was on the LN Wiki and I've added this to the Canon 2013:
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2013#The_adverb_marker_n.C3.AC-_and_.27e.27_of_a_root_word]The adverb marker nì- and 'e' of a root word[/url]



msg=595700 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-11 12:46:49 | u=7704

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=24494.msg595634#msg595634 date=1381407023]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24494.msg595630#msg595630 date=1381395649]
[quote]Katot täftxu oel nìean nìrim   'I weave the rhythm in yellow and blue'[/quote]
This reminds me [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/08/mipa-ayopin-mipa-ayliu-new-colors-new-words/]Naviteri post about colors[/url]:
[quote]To further subdivide the spectrum and name colors more specifically, Na’vi has 3 distinct mechanisms:

(1)    Na-constructions
(2)    Adverbial modification with nì-
(3)    Compounding[/quote]
Methods (2) and (3) still weren't published. I asked Paul some time before about method (2), but my question was queued - and not answered yet...[/quote]

Do you have asked Pawl about this yet or shall I ask him about that? (I want to ask him about the exceptions like nìean and maybe this is "method 2") :-\\
[/quote]
I plan to ask him when sending LEP submission.



msg=595701 | topic=24494 | board=99 | time=2013-10-11 12:48:39 | u=10322

Re: If nì- will attached at 'e'...

Titstewan

Great! just do this, because I will not sent him too much mails...probably he is busy. :)



msg=599196 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2013-12-06 22:06:06 | u=7704

Si-verbs modification

radek.raszka

Recently there was discussion about possibility and productivity of noun part si-verbs modification. ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=18207.msg598438#msg598438]starts here[/url] and 4 or 5 following posts). Wiki information is quite vague, so why to not ask for more information?

[quote=Blue Elf]Recently one of community members who rewrites Na'vi in a nutshell (simple grammar document for beginners) asked me about si-verb, more exactly about productivity of adding affixes to noun part od si-verbs.
We have examples like fìkem si/tsakem si/kempe si/wina uvan si, however except these examples there is no writen rule saying that this is productive process. The only information, which is quite vague can be found in our wiki:
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2010/UltxaAyharyu%C3%A4#Refinements_of_si-construction_verbs]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2010/UltxaAyharyu%C3%A4#Refinements_of_si-construction_verbs[/url]
"Second, like with kem, and apologies that you have to rely on my faulty memory for this one as I asked this during a break so as far as I know I'm the only witness (Hopefully I'm not misremembering), you can use modifiers on si verbs where it makes sense"
So, simple yes/no question just to be sure - it is safe to use affixes/adjective modifiers with noun part of si-verbs, if such modification gives sense?[/quote]
And what our authority says:
[quote=Paul]Ah, that's a good question. The general answer is: You can modify the noun component of si-construction verbs in most cases when it makes sense. For example, you could modify srung in srung si:

Txana srung soli po oer.
'He helped me a lot.'
(Literally, He did much help to me.)

But you wouldn't modify nari in nari si or kelku in kelku si; those are more idiomatic and "frozen," where modifying the noun component wouldn't be plausible.

So like many things in language, there isn't a simple yes-no answer. It's more like a scale: On one end are the si-constructions where the noun part is freely modifiable; on the other end are the "frozen" constructions where the nouns aren't modifiable. The more the "si" part can be interpreted as "doing" something to or with the noun part, the more modifiable the noun part is. So with kem si and srung si, I'm doing an action and doing help respectively. With nari si and kelku si, however, I'm not really "doing" eye or "doing" home.

I know that's still a bit vague, but I hope it helps.[/quote]
And that's all.



msg=599203 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2013-12-06 23:25:21 | u=4754

Re: Si-verbs modification

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

In many cases I have found that vague answers like this are more useful than succinct answers, as it gives you some wiggle room in sentence/thought construction. Irayo, ma Karyu Pawl ulte irayo nìteng, ma Blue Elf a perawm tìpawm



msg=599213 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2013-12-07 02:49:06 | u=10322

Re: Si-verbs modification

Titstewan

Tantsana fmawn! Irayo!
I suspecte that kelku si were 'special', anyway, this news is way more detailed than the older one. :)



msg=599217 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2013-12-07 07:40:44 | u=1550

Re: Si-verbs modification

Taras

Irayo. It's useful information :D



msg=603038 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2014-01-25 20:55:47 | u=1550

Re: Si-verbs modification

Taras

Interesting question: is it possible to add attributes to noun in si-versb between this noun and si? For example: srung atxan si. Also is it possible to add attributive clauses after si? For example:

 Pelun nga tsakem ke soli a oe ätxäle soli?
 Why you did not make what I ask you for?

I guess pelun nga ätxäle soli oe a tsakem ke soli? would work, but what about first example?



msg=603068 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2014-01-25 23:22:38 | u=7704

Re: Si-verbs modification

radek.raszka

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=24719.msg603038#msg603038 date=1390683347]
Interesting question: is it possible to add attributes to noun in si-versb between this noun and si? For example: srung atxan si.
[/quote]
IMHO it works, I even think there's some example from Paul. At least we have wina uvan si -> play a quick game. But I'm quite sure there's also example with srung. Plumps knows it for sure :)
[quote]
Also is it possible to add attributive clauses after si? For example:

 Pelun nga tsakem ke soli a oe ätxäle soli?
 Why you did not make what I ask you for?

I guess pelun nga ätxäle soli oe a tsakem ke soli? would work, but what about first example?
[/quote]
I would expect:
pelun nga tsakem a ätxäle soli oe ke soli ?



msg=603069 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2014-01-25 23:27:07 | u=1550

Re: Si-verbs modification

Taras

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24719.msg603068#msg603068 date=1390692158]
I would expect:
pelun nga tsakem a ätxäle soli oe ke soli ?
[/quote]

yeah, I think it works. But what about my example?



msg=603074 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2014-01-25 23:35:33 | u=7704

Re: Si-verbs modification

radek.raszka

That's question. As we have examples like [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/navi-expressions-and-idioms/msg602975/#msg602975]in this thread[/url], it should work. But I would probably prefer word order as in previous example. (at least it is safer)



msg=603088 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2014-01-26 00:10:27 | u=1550

Re: Si-verbs modification

Taras

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24719.msg603074#msg603074 date=1390692933]
But I would probably prefer word order as in previous example. (at least it is safer)
[/quote]

I completely agree.



msg=603102 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2014-01-26 02:53:43 | u=631

Re: Si-verbs modification

Plumps83

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24719.msg603068#msg603068 date=1390692158]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=24719.msg603038#msg603038 date=1390683347]
Interesting question: is it possible to add attributes to noun in si-versb between this noun and si? For example: srung atxan si.
[/quote]
IMHO it works, I even think there's some example from Paul. At least we have wina uvan si -> play a quick game. But I'm quite sure there's also example with srung. Plumps knows it for sure :)[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Only [url=http://naviteri.org/2012/10/mipa-vospxi-mipa-ayliu-new-words-for-the-new-month/]one example[/url] comes to mind:

Kea kem leyewla rä’ä si, rutxe.
‘Please don’t let me down.’ (lit.: no action-disappointing do-not, please)




msg=603109 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2014-01-26 06:58:54 | u=4754

Re: Si-verbs modification

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

To me anyways, Kemaweyan's first example made more sense to me than any of the other examples. These are interesting and potentially useful constructions. I am looking forward to what K. Pawl has to say about all of this.



msg=603111 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2014-01-26 08:31:05 | u=1550

Re: Si-verbs modification

Taras

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=24719.msg603109#msg603109 date=1390719534]
To me anyways, Kemaweyan's first example made more sense to me than any of the other examples.
[/quote]

Which one? You mean Pelun nga tsakem ke soli a oe ätxäle soli?



msg=603134 | topic=24719 | board=99 | time=2014-01-26 15:47:58 | u=7704

Re: Si-verbs modification

radek.raszka

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=24719.msg603102#msg603102 date=1390704823]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=24719.msg603068#msg603068 date=1390692158]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=24719.msg603038#msg603038 date=1390683347]
Interesting question: is it possible to add attributes to noun in si-versb between this noun and si? For example: srung atxan si.
[/quote]
IMHO it works, I even think there's some example from Paul. At least we have wina uvan si -> play a quick game. But I'm quite sure there's also example with srung. Plumps knows it for sure :)[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Only [url=http://naviteri.org/2012/10/mipa-vospxi-mipa-ayliu-new-words-for-the-new-month/]one example[/url] comes to mind:

Kea kem leyewla rä’ä si, rutxe.
‘Please don’t let me down.’ (lit.: no action-disappointing do-not, please)


[/quote]
I did some research, but can't find example I was speaking about. Seems I confused it with something else. Hìtxoa...



msg=612190 | topic=25525 | board=99 | time=2014-08-06 08:22:18 | u=7600

tiny clarification on nguway

Saralyn te Späyu

:D  I heard from Karyu Pawl, he said he'd put this in the next Na'viteri post, but for those of you who are curious now:  :D

[quote]
So . . . nguway.

Good question. I now realize we have a noun meaning the viper wolf's cry or howl but not yet a verb meaning to howl! So let's see . . .

The idea behind nguway is that it's related to way 'song.' It's a "ngu" song. :-) Ngu is supposed to be onomatopoeic, mimicking the sound of a howl. So to carry the idea further, the nantang is singing a song when he's howling, which indicates that rol should be involved.

So I'm thinking that the verb 'howl' should be rol nguway, where nguway is acting adverbially: to sing in a nguway, or howling, way. I don't think it should be a transitive structure like *Nantangìl rol nguwayti but rather the intransitive Nantang rol nguway. Along those lines, nguway si would also be possible, and perhaps more expected, but I do like using rol here.

So then a "howler" would be a nguwayrolyu.

A further thought:

Saying rol nguway over to myself, it's pretty clear that the l of rol is unstable here and would drop over time. That would give ro nguway, which would coalesce into one word, the verb ronguway!

So howl is then:

ronguway (vin., ro.NGU.way--infixes 1,1) 'howl'

In that case, 'howler' would be

ronguwayyu (n., ro.NGU.way.yu) 'howler'

I think I like that better![/quote]



msg=612198 | topic=25525 | board=99 | time=2014-08-06 11:02:22 | u=1975

Re: tiny clarification on nguway

Ean Tirea

This is pretty awesome! I quite like the idea of saying that the Nantang sings a howl. :D



msg=612212 | topic=25525 | board=99 | time=2014-08-06 20:58:04 | u=4754

Re: tiny clarification on nguway

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

And that is really appropriate for this canine-like animal. If falulukan roar in the same manner as 'Rrtan lions, that would be a 'song' as well (but we don't know if they do this, and they probably don't, as they do not appear to be social animals like aynantang). I am working on some animal sound proposals I finally hope to get posted this evening.



msg=612256 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-07 22:19:32 | u=631

Concerning time words and fìmeu

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]I e-mailed K. Pawl a few days ago about a question I had for quite a while.

With time words I was always confused what adposition to use (if at all) because we have different examples where there is sometimes a , sometimes nothing at all. Also, different languages use different prepositions (or none at all?) to deal with talking about time.

It may not be that surprising but for those of you who are interested, here is his response:


[quote=K. Pawl, Aug 6][font=book antiqua]About your time-word question:

I've been loose about whether or not should, or needs, to be included with such words. The choice is usually optional, just as in English we can say "On Mondays I go swimming" or simply "Mondays I go swimming." (Is there anything comparable in German?) In this latter example, "Mondays" is acting as an adverbial. That's how i would analyze "rewon" and "kaym" in the corresponding Na'vi sentences. (Kaym oe slele nìtrrtrr.)

The one thing we CAN'T say is *mì kamtrr (or, of course, *kxamtrrmì). That's because "noon" is a point in time, not a range, and you can't be "in" a point. Words like rewon and kaym are obviously ranges, so you can indeed be "in" them.

For zusawkrr and ftawnemkrr, I would definitely include . I don't (yet?) have a good rule or guideline for that, but it feels right.
[/quote]

[font=Georgia]Another titbit… for those of you who wonder about the stacking of demonstrative/plural prefixes.
In another e-mail, he wrote:

[quote=K.Pawl, Aug 6][font=book antiqua]Ngaru fìmeu, ma tsmuk. :-)

[…]

P.S. This is the first time I've used fìmeu! I think it's appropriate here when there are only two things that I'm "handing" you. Stress on the u, of course: fì.me.U

[/quote]



msg=612265 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-08 05:40:29 | u=10322

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Titstewan

Eltur tìtxen seiyi nìtxan ulte irayo!

Ngaru fìmeu
"here is the two tings" / "two things is yours" ???
So, fìpxeu and fayu possible too, kefyak?



msg=612269 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-08 11:37:59 | u=1550

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Taras

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=25533.msg612265#msg612265 date=1407476429]
Eltur tìtxen seiyi nìtxan ulte irayo!

Ngaru fìmeu
"here is the two tings" / "two things is yours" ???
So, fìpxeu and fayu possible too, kefyak?
[/quote]

Hmm... We have (ay)sa'u as plural of tsa'u. Also I remember that once Pawl said that plural of fì'u should be ayfì'u, not *fayu. I was surprised and remember it well, but now can't find that topic. But maybe that's only with ay+ (in words with 'u)? :-\\



msg=612270 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-08 12:55:52 | u=6105

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Tanri

Yes, it is confusing a little.
As I know, pronoun this/that (fì’u/tsa’u) is looked at as a single noun without cutting it in a prefix and root. Therefore number mark comes in front of it (mefì’u).
However, a noun follows common pattern fì/tsa - number - noun.

What do you think about this example:
Fìmenikroi lu lor nìtxan, rutxe piveng oer teyngta mefì’u lu pesur?
[desc=based on the noun nikroi]These two hair ornaments[/desc] are very beautiful, tell me please whose [desc=based on the pronoun fì’u]these[/desc] are?



msg=612273 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-08 14:56:06 | u=1550

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Taras

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=25533.msg612270#msg612270 date=1407502552]
What do you think about this example:
Fìmenikroi lu lor nìtxan, rutxe piveng oer teyngta mefì’u lu pesur?
[desc=based on the noun nikroi]These two hair ornaments[/desc] are very beautiful, tell me please whose [desc=based on the pronoun fì’u]these[/desc] are?
[/quote]

Where is this example from?



msg=612274 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-08 15:11:16 | u=10322

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Titstewan

Hmm.. there is not "two" versions of 'u, one as pronoun another one just as simple noun (as 'u means "thing") :-\\



msg=612275 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-08 15:22:08 | u=1550

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Taras

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=25533.msg612274#msg612274 date=1407510676]
Hmm.. there is not "two" versions of 'u, one as pronoun another one just as simple noun (as 'u means "thing") :-\\
[/quote]

'u is a noun, but fì'u and tsa'u are pronouns.



msg=612278 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-08 18:27:44 | u=6105

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Tanri

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=25533.msg612273#msg612273 date=1407509766]
[quote author=Tanri link=topic=25533.msg612270#msg612270 date=1407502552]
What do you think about this example:
Fìmenikroi lu lor nìtxan, rutxe piveng oer teyngta mefì’u lu pesur?
[desc=based on the noun nikroi]These two hair ornaments[/desc] are very beautiful, tell me please whose [desc=based on the pronoun fì’u]these[/desc] are?
[/quote]
Where is this example from?
[/quote]
Just randomly created :)



msg=612295 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-08 21:29:25 | u=4754

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Eltur tìtxen si nìteng! I just looked up fì'u and tsa'u in the dictionary. Eì'u is listed as a pronoun, and tsa'u as a demonstrative. Perhaps we need to fix the part of speech on tsa'u to be consistent with what K. Pawl is telling us. I also wonder if a special note on plural usage is needed here, or if that just follows with usage on other pronouns?

I also wonder, if we have fìmeu, if fìpxeu is possible as well?



msg=612482 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-12 20:17:55 | u=1975

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Ean Tirea

I think it really may be this:

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=25533.msg612270#msg612270 date=1407502552]
Yes, it is confusing a little.
As I know, pronoun this/that (fì’u/tsa’u) is looked at as a single noun without cutting it in a prefix and root. Therefore number mark comes in front of it (mefì’u).
However, a noun follows common pattern fì/tsa - number - noun.

What do you think about this example:
Fìmenikroi lu lor nìtxan, rutxe piveng oer teyngta mefì’u lu pesur?
[desc=based on the noun nikroi]These two hair ornaments[/desc] are very beautiful, tell me please whose [desc=based on the pronoun fì’u]these[/desc] are?
[/quote]

noun 'u has form fì-me+u
pronoun fì'u has form ay+fì'u

This is all really strange. This also may be just because Pawl forgot about the single exception about 'u he made. And the exception made long ago kind of makes sense:

Plural of 'u = ayu
plural of fì'u = ayfì'u

Because fì'u is already some special pronoun.


??? :-\\



msg=612484 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-12 20:30:45 | u=10322

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Titstewan

Could it be not possible that if one use 'u as pronoun, it becomes dual/trial/plural - fì- 'u,
and in the meaning as noun fì- dual/trial/plural - 'u?
??? :-\\



msg=612486 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-12 20:40:11 | u=1975

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Ean Tirea

kann man "Ding" benutzen, wie ein Pronomen?

normaleweise, man sagt z.B: er, sie, es, ihn, ihr, ihm.. aber nie Ding. Kefyak?



msg=612488 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-12 21:03:26 | u=10322

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Titstewan

[desc=A "thing" must not be always a pronoun? It can mean also an unknown object or something "unspecific":
That thing can fly. vs. It can fly.

"Thing" (fì'u / tsa'u) is very similar like "one" (fko), only that "one" is for indefinite persons/animate and "thing" for inanimated objects.]Ein Ding/Sache muss nicht immer ein Pronomen sein? Es kann auch etwas "unbekanntes Objekt" oder etwas "unspezifisches" meinen:
Dieses Ding kann fliegen. vs. Es kann fliegen.

"Ding" (fì'u / tsa'u) ist sehr ähnlich wie "man" (fko), nur, dass "man" für unbestimmte Personen/Lebewesen ist und "Ding" für unbelebte Objekte.[/desc]

---
'u is definded as a noun, so if one add - or tsa- to that noun, it becomes suddenly (always) a pronoun? Weird.



msg=612577 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-15 18:54:22 | u=7704

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=25533.msg612488#msg612488 date=1407877406]
'u is defined as a noun, so if one add - or tsa- to that noun, it becomes suddenly (always) a pronoun? Weird.
[/quote]

One example where "logic" in language doesn't work.



msg=612584 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-15 20:15:34 | u=1975

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=25533.msg612577#msg612577 date=1408128862]
One example where "logic" in language doesn't work.
[/quote]

It's just like how if you put fi- onto tseng, you get an adverb. Or a noun. Sort of also unexpected by a certain point of view.

And how if you put a after fì'u, it suddenly turns into a subordinator thingy whatever-it-is-thingy thing.

'u is such a crazy word. ;D

EDIT: Ever notice that a is the ONLY single-letter word? It is actually an exception to word-building rule. No mono-syllabic may consist of simply a vowel or diphthong. (This is where ayu has no short form comes from, I believe)



msg=612945 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-21 20:14:20 | u=4754

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=25533.msg612584#msg612584 date=1408133734]
EDIT: Ever notice that a is the ONLY single-letter word? It is actually an exception to word-building rule. No mono-syllabic may consist of simply a vowel or diphthong. (This is where ayu has no short form comes from, I believe)
[/quote]

Single vowel words are allowed. See Horen 2.1.4.

I'll have to propose that o be the word to describe the patina that develops on the weathered faces of just a certain kind of green rock that is only found in the floating mountains ;)



msg=612964 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2014-08-22 00:04:52 | u=1975

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Ean Tirea

That just says what syllables are allowed to be made up of. You'd think that the rules of constructing a monosyllabic word would be exactly equal to the rules of constructing a syllable... but then why in the world can't u exist? it must always be 'u or ayu. And beyond that rule and the actual existence of a as a "word", we have (afaik) zero words ever consisting of only a vowel or only a diphthong.



msg=653061 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-08-01 16:37:02 | u=1975

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Ean Tirea

Pardon the necro...

Has anyone actually followed up on fìmeu now apparently being canon?
What do we know about the existence of:

fìpxeu
fayu
tsameu
tsapxeu
tsayu

What does this say about the existing forms sa'u and seyä, which would have been expected to be tsayu and tsayuä?

It would be nice to have the plural rules be consistent for all nouns and pronouns.



msg=653062 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-08-01 20:31:07 | u=4754

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

1I guess my comment was misunderstood.

By 'single vowel words', I meant words that consist of a vowel (or dipthong) and one other consonant. There are many examples of these words. 'u is such a word, and is unusual in that it can lose its consonant due to lenition. This may be why we have words like tsaw, which can be used in place of tsa'u. It may also be a pronunciation thing, and I know K. Pawl likes those little pronunciation things (most of which I can't remember.)

There is nothing in Horen that prevents a word that is just a single vowel. However, Horen may not be complete in this regard. We do have one single vowel (no consonant) word, and that is an important one, a. Something tells me there will not be other words like this.



msg=653063 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-08-01 21:20:46 | u=1975

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Ean Tirea

'u is the only single syllable word whose short plural form would yield only a single vowel remaining in the word. But there's this:

[quote=Horen]
3.1.3.1. The plural prefix only may be dropped if there is lenition. The plural of prrnen is either ayfrrnen or the short plural frrnen (but see §6.5.2.2).2

2 Exception: ’u thing does not take the short plural, always occuring as ayu.

6.5.2.2. Since lenition alone is also used as the short plural (§3.1.3.1), there is a chance for
number uncertainty depending on the conversational context. To be clear about number, use
the full plural prefix ay+; the lenited form without ay+ should be interpreted as singular. NT
(1/7/2010)[/quote]

And so it stands that a is the only single letter word in the language, consisting of a lone vowel. I also do not see there being any other ones like this. Even the ayu having no short plural exception listed above appears to be a deliberate attempt to avoid single letter words made of one vowel. (For what It's worth, It's also clearly known that a single consinant could never be a syllable or word.)

But....

Still tho. What's up with fìmeu and what are the implications? We sparked discussion in thia thread about ayfì'u, aysa'u/sa'u but did we ever get answers on the order of presidence of the plural prefixes and fì-/tsa-? We know so far that the general rule has been fì-/tsa- first then me+/pxe+/ay+ but we were blown away by the actual existence of aysa'u and ayfì'u as exceptions to this rule. Is any theory in this thread on the mark about all this? Someone should send KP an email about this. I'm super curious :)

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk




msg=653069 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-08-02 22:03:28 | u=4754

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Horen 3.3.7 gives the order of prefixes on a noun, and fìmeu does not violate that. However, words like *ayfì'u. Do. Fìmeu has a useful meaning as Pawl points out. However fìayu does not, unless you rearrange the prefixes in your mind, such that fìayu means 'all these things'.

Unquestionably a question for Pawl, as I don't think this has been formally addressed anywhere.

Another thing. The reference in Horen 6.5.2.2, if I am interpreting it right, implies the short plural always means the singular. This makes more sense whatsoever, and maybe I am somehow misreading that. (BTW, the use of the long plural for clarity or emphasis was understood early on, and this is why I deliberately chose 'Eylan Ayfalulukanä over 'Eylan Falulukanä as my Na'vi name.)



msg=653072 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-08-02 23:19:55 | u=1153

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Mech

Concerning the long vs short plural, I don't know if it has been addressed before, but my hunch is that the long plural should ALWAYS be preferred in ceremonial situations eg. alongside ohe, ngenga etc.



msg=653073 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-08-02 23:24:32 | u=1975

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Mech link=topic=25533.msg653072#msg653072 date=1501715995]
Concerning the long vs short plural, I don't know if it has been addressed before, but my hunch is that the long plural should ALWAYS be preferred in ceremonial situations eg. alongside ohe, ngenga etc.
[/quote]I would imagine so.

@`EA,
As for short plural, it is not singular. Short plural is a shortcut to express plural. All it was saying is if you encounter a noun that has changed due to a lenition-causing adposition like mì+, then the lenited noun is to be taken as lenited singular, not short plural. This was designed to break an ambiguity.

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk



msg=653087 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-08-04 20:49:39 | u=7704

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

radek.raszka

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=25533.msg653069#msg653069 date=1501711408]
Horen 3.3.7 gives the order of prefixes on a noun, and fìmeu does not violate that. However, words like *ayfì'u. Do. Fìmeu has a useful meaning as Pawl points out. However fìayu does not, unless you rearrange the prefixes in your mind, such that fìayu means 'all these things'.
[/quote]
According horen *fìayu should not exist. Fì- + ay+ results in fay+ prefix.

[quote]3.3.1. Fì-. This prenoun is for proximal deixis, this. When it is followed by the plural prefix ay+ they contract into fay+, these. [/quote]
But also it states:
[quote]But we’ve seen fìay- from Frommer at least once, oel foru fìaylì’ut tolìng a krr, kxawm oe harmahängaw.[/quote] ([url=https://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon]source[/url]).
This requires answer, whether it is mistake / exception / what the hell. The whole sentence has not very clear meaning:
When I has given them these words, I was sleeping == when I told the these words, I was sleeping (??).

What is poet trying to say? Was I talking from sleep ? I was talking and they didn't hear me/ didn't want to hear me? Somehow strange...

Edit: added to grammar section of current submission.



msg=653088 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-08-05 00:53:02 | u=1975

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=25533.msg653087#msg653087 date=1501879779]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=25533.msg653069#msg653069 date=1501711408]
Horen 3.3.7 gives the order of prefixes on a noun, and fìmeu does not violate that. However, words like *ayfì'u. Do. Fìmeu has a useful meaning as Pawl points out. However fìayu does not, unless you rearrange the prefixes in your mind, such that fìayu means 'all these things'.
[/quote]
According horen *fìayu should not exist. Fì- + ay+ results in fay+ prefix.

[quote]3.3.1. Fì-. This prenoun is for proximal deixis, this. When it is followed by the plural prefix ay+ they contract into fay+, these. [/quote]
But also it states:
[quote]But we’ve seen fìay- from Frommer at least once, oel foru fìaylì’ut tolìng a krr, kxawm oe harmahängaw.[/quote] ([url=https://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon]source[/url]).
This requires answer, whether it is mistake / exception / what the hell. The whole sentence has not very clear meaning:
When I has given them these words, I was sleeping == when I told the these words, I was sleeping (??).

What is poet trying to say? Was I talking from sleep ? I was talking and they didn't hear me/ didn't want to hear me? Somehow strange...

Edit: added to grammar section of current submission.
[/quote]

fay+ is just a contraction of fìay+

That expression looks like Pawl admitting he done goof'd. See the italic header there "on making a mistake:". It seems that "When I gave them these words, maybe I was sleeping D;" i.e., I must not have been even conscious and aware of what I was saying, the mistake was so bad.

EDIT EDIT: If both don't get to make it, I'd rather see the fìmeu prefix order of precedence question make it before does fìay exist uncontracted question. (If I understood correctly)



msg=653645 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-09-17 10:11:44 | u=631

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Plumps83

Here’s an update on the order of prefixes and the confusion hopefully clarified.

[quote=K. Pawl, 16 Sept 2017]As you know, the standard ordering of elements is: Demonstrative (fì-, tsa- ) + Number Marker (me-, pxe-, ay-) + Noun.

So, for example, from the film: "Fayvrrtep fìtsenge lu kxanì," where fì + ay --> fay.

That means the expected forms with 'u are, as you noted, fìmeu, fìpxeu and fayu for ‘these 2/3 things’ and

tsameu, tsapxeu and tsayu for ‘those 2/3 things.’ Those forms treat 'u as a NOUN meaning 'thing."


The unexpected order -- Number Marker + Demonstrative -- treats fì'u and tsa'u as bases themselves rather than as Dem + Noun. That is, they're considered, just as you said, bare pronouns that are "entities" themselves.
[/quote]



msg=653651 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-09-17 18:36:51 | u=11067

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

NaVi_Quebec

Thanks!



msg=653712 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-09-21 16:20:33 | u=7704

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

radek.raszka

all clear now, case closed. Thanks for info, Plumps!



msg=653721 | topic=25533 | board=99 | time=2017-09-21 20:40:41 | u=16113

Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu

Wllìm

That is great to know, thanks for asking, ma Plumps! :D



msg=612540 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-14 18:23:49 | u=10322

Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Titstewan

Kaltxì ma frapo,

There was recently a discussion if one can combine reflexive <äp> and causative <eyk> with the active/passive participles.
As this is a quite difficult question, Pawl could only answer a part of it:
[quote=Ta Pawl]
[...]
You ask some excellent questions! Most of them I want to think about for a bit longer, since the ramifications are important.

One preliminary judgment, though: <awn> can't be used with <äp>:

*Oel tse'a ioangit ayäpawnur. --That's not grammatical.

The reason is that <awn> is only used with transitive verbs, since it's only for transitive verbs that passive makes sense: We can have tsawne'a, yawnur, tspawnang, etc. but not *zawna'u, *hawnahaw, *kxawnem, etc.

But what <äp> does is turn a transitive verb into an intransitive one. We say, for example, Pol ngati tse'a. 'He sees you.'

But with the reflexive, it's Po tsäpe'a 'He sees himself,'  not *Pol tsäpe'a. This indicates that tsäpe'a is intransitive. it would be like having an intransitive verb "self-see," (which of course we do not have in English!) that cannot take an object: If such a verb existed, "John self-sees" would be OK, but "John self-sees Mary" would not be possible.

So this eliminates one cell in the matrix:

                <äp>          <eyk>

<us>


<awn>      NO


I'll be thinking more about the other 3 cells. ;-)

I'll get back to you again as soon as I can.[/quote]

So, a quarter of the question has been answered: combination of <awn> and <äp> is impossible

Update:
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=27379.0]Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd[/url] :) :)



msg=612543 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-14 18:43:58 | u=1550

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Taras

Tsaw eltur tìtxen si, irayo. Ke tsun fko sivar fìmekemlì'uvit awsiteng a fì'u lam muiä ;) Lahea hapxìri tì'eyngä oe perey nìftxavang...



msg=612544 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-14 19:03:37 | u=10322

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Titstewan

Srane. Slä lahea [desc=fìmehemlì'uvit, srak? ;-)]h[/desc]emlì'uvit eltur tìtxen sayi! Oe new ivomum tsat, slä tìmweypey! :D



msg=612545 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-14 19:17:08 | u=1975

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Ean Tirea

This makes a lot of sense.

But this also means that <äp><us> is not ruled out and may very well be possible. Same with the <eyk> combinations.



msg=612546 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-14 19:28:41 | u=10322

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Titstewan

By the logic of his explanation, <eyk> and <awn> could be possible as <eyk> makes a verb transitive. :-\\
As for <äp> and <us>, I somehow feel it's possible, but lets wait what Pawl will say. :)

(hrh, funny discussion that everything should be send by the LEP xD)



msg=612553 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-14 21:05:33 | u=4754

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I wasn't aware that <awn> would only work with transitive verbs, but the explanation makes sense.



msg=612562 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-15 02:08:01 | u=1975

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Ean Tirea

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=25569.msg612553#msg612553 date=1408050333]
I wasn't aware that <awn> would only work with transitive verbs, but the explanation makes sense.
[/quote]

It only makes sense. Using it on an intransitive word would not make any sense. The whole point of <awn>'s existence has always been to turn a verb into an adjective which would modify a noun to say that the verb has been applied to the noun modified. Which would by definition mean that the verb has to be transitive, or such a noun the verb was applied to applied to could not be. This noun would be the direct object.

Oel yolom syuvet. Oel ke tse'a yawnoma syuvet.
I ate food. I don't see the eaten food.

tutan holahaw. Tutanìl tse'a *hawnahawa....???
The man slept. The man sees the *slept...???

How can we make a passive participle of this, given there is no direct object?
Here this <awn> is modifying a noun into one which has had the verb executed upon it.

All examples of <awn> we have ever seen, did you notice they were all transitive? :)

But <us> is interesting. We don't quite have the same problem with this one.

Tutanìl yerom syuvet. Oel tse'a yusoma tutanit.
The man is eating food. I see the eating man.

Zerup tompa. Oel tse'a zusupa tompati.
Rain is falling. I see the falling rain.

Because here, this looks to be modifying a noun into one which is in the process of doing the verb.

:)

--
I patiently await the coming answers...



msg=612572 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-15 08:59:34 | u=16113

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Wllìm

Great :D I guessed that part correctly ;D
I'm very curious about the other forms...

[me=Wllìm]modifies the Verb infix tool to reject <äp> + <awn>[/me]



msg=612575 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-15 18:50:31 | u=7704

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=25569.msg612546#msg612546 date=1408044521]
By the logic of his explanation, <eyk> and <awn> could be possible as <eyk> makes a verb transitive. :-\\
As for <äp> and <us>, I somehow feel it's possible, but lets wait what Pawl will say. :)

(hrh, funny discussion that everything should be send by the LEP xD)
[/quote]
But language IS NOT math and logic sometimes (or even often) doesn't work. Let's wait for final answer (whether logical or not ;)).



msg=612585 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-15 20:24:59 | u=1975

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=25569.msg612575#msg612575 date=1408128631]
But language IS NOT math and logic sometimes (or even often) doesn't work. Let's wait for final answer (whether logical or not ;)).
[/quote]

Absolutely. Unexpected exceptions happen all the time in natural languages. But there does come a point where something is SO nonsensical, that it cannot possibly exist. Right? :-\\ Still, I agree.



msg=612596 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-15 21:24:15 | u=4754

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

The second sentence doesn't make grammatical sense:

Zerup tompa. Oel tse'a zusupa tompa.
Rain is falling. I see the falling rain.

Tse'a is a transitive verb, so Oel is properly marked as a agent. The root verb of zusup, zup is intransitive. But since zusup is now effectively an adjective (and takes an -a-), it simply modifies tompa, which should be marked as a patient, and thus be tompat(i)



msg=612597 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-15 21:26:42 | u=1975

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Ean Tirea

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=25569.msg612596#msg612596 date=1408137855]
The second sentence doesn't make grammatical sense:

Zerup tompa. Oel tse'a zusupa tompa.
Rain is falling. I see the falling rain.

Tse'a is a transitive verb, so Oel is properly marked as a agent. The root verb of zusup, zup is intransitive. But since zusup is now effectively an adjective (and takes an -a-), it simply modifies tompa, which should be marked as a patient, and thus be tompat(i)
[/quote]

Took the long route to say "forgot -t in that 2nd one" eh? ;D Yeah, I dun messed up. *edited the previous post* +1 to you for correcting that error :)



msg=612599 | topic=25569 | board=99 | time=2014-08-15 22:32:27 | u=16113

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>

Wllìm

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=25569.msg612585#msg612585 date=1408134299]
But there does come a point where something is SO nonsensical, that it cannot possibly exist. Right? :-\\
[/quote]

HRH! Ever seen the Dutch spelling rules for making compound nouns? :D

[spoiler=Short summary of the rule]Use -en- when the first part of the compound has a plural on -en, else use -e-. Except when it also has a plural on something else (yes, there are words with two possible plurals...). And, except if there is only one of the item. And, except if there are possibly more of the item, but it is logically presumed that you only mean one of them (this is actually quite arbitrary). (There are some more exceptions like these.) Now on these exceptions there are several exceptions, for example "old" compounds that the spelling is fixed of, and stupid things like "if the first part is an animal and the compound is a plant, don't use -en-, even if the other rules would imply that". Oh wait, and there have been two spelling reforms already since I first learned the rule, which both changed the rules for this to "make it easier", so I'm not sure what exceptions are added and removed in the meantime... There also is an "un-official" spelling, which even uses different rules for this... Now the most stupid part: there is no difference in pronunciation between the two forms (except if you speak really carefully). It is purely a spelling issue.[/spoiler]

I think almost all Dutch people wonder how such a nonsensical, complicated rule was invented... Almost nobody does it right anyway :o



msg=622950 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-02 21:39:25 | u=10322

to "throw at" X

Titstewan

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=26167.msg621987#msg621987 date=1424018881]
I have a plan for this question, but there is no garantee, of course. :)[/quote]

Plan successful, I received an answer. :)

Ayngaru fì'u:
[quote=ta Pawl]
[quote=ta oe][...]
Btw, how to say “throw at X” in Na’vi?

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
I throw a stone to (direction) you. [this sound ‘neutral’]
or
Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru.
I throw a stone to you (dative). [this would imply that one would give a stone to someone]
or
Oel tsre'i tskxet wä nga.
I throw a stone against you. [this would have an aggressive meaning]

Eltur tìtxen seiyi.
[...]

[/quote]

[...]
About "throw":

I like all your three suggestions. Ne does indeed imply the physical act of throwing towards someone, keeping with the idea that verbs of motion use ne as the place towards which the motion is directed. Here the English translation would be, "He threw a/the stone to me."

The dative case would be used in the sense of giving the stone to someone, although there's some overlap here with ne. Here again the English would be, ""He threw a/the stone to me."

And would have an aggressive connotation. The translation here would differ: "He threw a/the stone at me."
[...]
[/quote]
================
ADDENDUM thanks to Blue Elf.

[quote=Blue Elf]I’d like to ask some explanation about “throw at” conversation you have had recently with Tìtstewan.
Here are two sentences with your explanation:
1/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
Ne does indeed imply the physical act of throwing towards someone, keeping with the idea that verbs of motion use ne as the place towards which the motion is directed. Here the English translation would be, "He threw a/the stone to me."
2/Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru.
The dative case would be used in the sense of giving the stone to someone, although there's some overlap here with ne. Here again the English would be, ""He threw a/the stone to me."
English version of both examples is the same, what is a little confusing, as meaning is not completely the same. It can be well seen in translation into my native Czech:
1/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you or transferring stone from me to you. I can hit you or not – but only direction is what matters.
2/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving from hand to hand (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but move the stone from me to you).
Is this way how we should understand these two sentences? I think it is limitation of English that it can’t express the difference – for exact meaning we should translate 1/ as  I throw stone in direction to you.
Are these thoughts correct?
[/quote]
[quote=Reply from Paul]I think your analysis is very good, B.E. The sentence with ne implies, as you've said very clearly, direction: "I threw the stone in his direction." One way to express that in English is to use "towards": "I threw the stone towards him." And the ngaru sentence implies intentionally transferring the stone by throwing rather than giving by hand: "I threw him the stone."

Now that I think of it, when we say in English, "I threw the stone to him," it's almost always the second interpretation rather than the first.

To be a little clearer about that:

(1) I threw the stone towards him. DIRECTION

(2) I threw him the stone. TRANSFERRING FROM ONE TO ANOTHER BY THROWING

(3) I threw the stone to him.   ???

I think the answer is that in English, almost always, (3) = (2). I can't think of natural examples where (3) = (1).

So I should have used "towards" in the translation of the ne sentence.
[/quote]


---

Russian translation:
[iurl=http://forum.learnnavi.org/k-a/ooae-aoa-tsrei/]Использование глагола tsre'i[/iurl]



msg=622951 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-02 21:44:41 | u=631

to "throw at" X

Plumps83

[font=Georgia]Txantsan. Wonderful :) Thanks for sharing.



msg=622957 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-02 22:06:59 | u=11067

to "throw at" X

NaVi_Quebec

Irayo ma Karyu Pawl sì Tìtstewan!



msg=622959 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-02 22:12:16 | u=10322

Re: to "throw at" X

Titstewan

Kea tìkin! :)

I've moved this part to the right section, even if this isn't that big language news.



msg=622973 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-03 03:01:25 | u=4754

Re: to "throw at" X

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Actually, this is quite useful language information. Irayo, ma Tìtstewan!



msg=623000 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-03 20:04:40 | u=12584

Re: to "throw at" X

EternalRain

Awesome! :) One more mystery solved. Thank you for forwarding that question to Paul, ma Tìtstewan.



msg=623130 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-06 19:59:52 | u=7704

Re: to "throw at" X

radek.raszka

Well, our knowledge increased again. Very good!
Just to be more sure, are these explanation correct?:

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga. -> I throw stone in direction to you -> most probably you will not be hit be stone and you aren't able to catch it

Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru. -> I throw stone to you -> I throw it in way you'll be able to catch it into hands while it flies

Oel tsre'i tskxet wä nga. -> I intend to hit you by stone.

That's how I understand it now.



msg=623136 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-06 20:34:59 | u=10322

Re: to "throw at" X

Titstewan

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=26225.msg623130#msg623130 date=1425671992]
Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga. -> I throw stone in direction to you -> most probably you will not be hit by stone and you aren't able to catch it[/quote]

It has nothing to do with the ability of catching something. This sentence has a neutral meaning. One throws a stone in direction to X, but the attention behind is not aggresive. No matter if you will catch the stone or not.
Here a example of the intended meaning:
[desc=neytiri said, O Jake, you should throw your spear to this trunk. I hope, you will hit it.]Neytiri poltxe san, Ma Tsyeyk, nga zene tsrive'i ngeyä tukrut ne fìtangek. sìk. Sìlpey oe, ngal tiyevakuk tsat.[/desc]


[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=26225.msg623130#msg623130 date=1425671992]
Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru. -> I throw stone to you -> I throw it in way you'll be able to catch it into hands while it flies[/quote]

This is basically the same like above mentioned. But this rather mean that one throw the stone to X in the sense of: one want to give the stone to somebody.
Just a scene for better imagination:
You and your friend are flying with your ikran. Your frind sees a prey and he call to you:
[desc=O friend, could you throw your spear to me. I'll need it.]Ma 'eylan, tsun nga tsrive'i oer ngeyä tukrut. Oel kasyin tsat.[/desc]

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=26225.msg623130#msg623130 date=1425671992]
Oel tsre'i tskxet wä nga. -> I intend to hit you by stone.[/quote]

Correct. this indeed means an aggresive action.


Btw. I've added a link to the russian translation in the OP. Irayo, ma Kemaweyan! :)



msg=623213 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-08 09:35:19 | u=7704

Re: to "throw at" X

radek.raszka

I asked because translation into Czech give different meanings for first and second case.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you ot transferring stone from me to you - direction is what matters.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but throw you the stone)

however it seems that in Na'vi both these examples are roughly the same and it would lead to question how to express meaning from my second example. It looks like problem on English side (or maybe on the side of in my English :))
I think I'll ask Pawl for more info.



msg=623214 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-08 10:08:55 | u=631

Re: to "throw at" X

Plumps83

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=26225.msg623213#msg623213 date=1425807319]
I asked because translation into Czech give different meanings for first and second case.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you ot transferring stone from me to you - direction is what matters.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but throw you the stone)[/quote]

[font=Georgia]I’ll interpret it exactly the same in Na’vi.
You could translate the first example as “I throw the stone in your direction” (I don’t want to hit you, whether you catch it or not is not important). I don’t see anything wrong with it. ne connotes a general direction “to, towards”, so I think you’re on the right track in Czech ;)



msg=623216 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-08 10:29:05 | u=10322

Re: to "throw at" X

Titstewan

Total this what Plumps wrote. :)



msg=623320 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-11 17:31:15 | u=1975

Re: to "throw at" X

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=26225.msg623213#msg623213 date=1425807319]
I asked because translation into Czech give different meanings for first and second case.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you ot transferring stone from me to you - direction is what matters.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but throw you the stone)

however it seems that in Na'vi both these examples are roughly the same and it would lead to question how to express meaning from my second example. It looks like problem on English side (or maybe on the side of in my English :))
I think I'll ask Pawl for more info.
[/quote]

This is my understanding as well.


--

Thanks for the update ma Tìtstewan!



msg=623324 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-11 20:30:58 | u=7704

Re: to "throw at" X

radek.raszka

As confirmation doesn't hurt, here it is:
[quote=Blue Elf]I’d like to ask some explanation about “throw at” conversation you have had recently with Tìtstewan.
Here are two sentences with your explanation:
1/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
Ne does indeed imply the physical act of throwing towards someone, keeping with the idea that verbs of motion use ne as the place towards which the motion is directed. Here the English translation would be, "He threw a/the stone to me."
2/Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru.
The dative case would be used in the sense of giving the stone to someone, although there's some overlap here with ne. Here again the English would be, ""He threw a/the stone to me."
English version of both examples is the same, what is a little confusing, as meaning is not completely the same. It can be well seen in translation into my native Czech:
1/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you or transferring stone from me to you. I can hit you or not – but only direction is what matters.
2/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving from hand to hand (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but move the stone from me to you).
Is this way how we should understand these two sentences? I think it is limitation of English that it can’t express the difference – for exact meaning we should translate 1/ as  I throw stone in direction to you.
Are these thoughts correct?
[/quote]
[quote=Reply from Paul]I think your analysis is very good, B.E. The sentence with ne implies, as you've said very clearly, direction: "I threw the stone in his direction." One way to express that in English is to use "towards": "I threw the stone towards him." And the ngaru sentence implies intentionally transferring the stone by throwing rather than giving by hand: "I threw him the stone."

Now that I think of it, when we say in English, "I threw the stone to him," it's almost always the second interpretation rather than the first.

To be a little clearer about that:

(1) I threw the stone towards him. DIRECTION

(2) I threw him the stone. TRANSFERRING FROM ONE TO ANOTHER BY THROWING

(3) I threw the stone to him.  ???

I think the answer is that in English, almost always, (3) = (2). I can't think of natural examples where (3) = (1).

So I should have used "towards" in the translation of the ne sentence.
[/quote]
and finally:
[quote=Paul]I'm behind in presenting new vocabulary. I do hope to get a post out this week, however, so I'll ask you to be patient just a little longer.[/quote]



msg=623325 | topic=26225 | board=99 | time=2015-03-11 20:36:31 | u=10322

Re: to "throw at" X

Titstewan

Thanks for posting it! :D
I got that mail too. ;D

Yeah, the general problem is, the English language solves the dative case in two ways: by word order or by using the preposition to. That “to-dative” could overlap with the version that mean to as direction, of course. This is what cause confusion.

I addad tha to the OP too. :)



msg=623542 | topic=26250 | board=99 | time=2015-03-16 04:32:57 | u=1975

Distributive Property of Adjectives

Ean Tirea

Kaltxì ma frapo! I have a little confirmation here. It may have been obvious to some, but I wanted to be totally sure of this.

The other day, Neytiri and I were discussing what the following phrase means:

eana kelku sì taw

And so, we resolved to send him an email. Here is the email I sent to Pawl:

[quote=Tirea Aean]
Kaltxì ma Pawl!

Oel ngati kameie.

[...]

So here is the quick question, about how a certain phrase in Na'vi works...

A.) eana kelku sì taw

Is this ambiguous or not? How should it be parsed?

1.) {eana kelku} sì taw

OR

2.) eana {kelku sì taw}
= eana kelku sì eana taw

Although we do know that to break any ambiguity, we can say:

B.) kelku aean sì taw

and it can only parse as

{kelku aean} sì taw

I suppose a question is, Does the adjective ean in (A) distribute across both nouns connected by sì? (Like in English, and like (2)) or is it already unambigous and (1) is the only correct interpretation?

This has really been making Neytiri and I think a lot today.

Eywa ngahu,
Ta Kori
[/quote]

And out of the blue today, he decided to call my mobile with the reply to this email. I will try my best to recall verbatim quotes from memory. (I really wish I had a means at the time to record the conversation!)


[quote=Tirea Aean]
So did you get my email about whether or not adjectives can distribute to both things?

[...]

I just assumed that the attributive adjective applies exclusively only to the noun it is placed next to and the a points to.[/quote]

[quote=Paul Frommer]
Ah yes. I did, actually. [...] I've actually used a similar example before when teaching about this same ambiguity in English. The example was something like:

Older men and women...

As you know, this phrase is ambiguous in English. It's natural in cases like these to distribute the adjective to both nouns.

[...] So you assumed that the adjective doesn't distribute?[/quote]

[quote=Tirea Aean]
Yes. That seemed to make intuitive sense to me. But then I thought about it --[/quote]

[quote=Paul Frommer]
Hmm.. If the adjective didn't distribute... then there would be no real way of having it apply to both nouns without .. without repeating the same adjective again.
[/quote]

[quote=Tirea Aean]
Right, yes. And I could see that being cumbersome.[/quote]

[quote=Paul Frommer]
You're right; it would be cumbersome. I think it's natural to be able to distribute it across without repeating it again. But yes, that certain word order of the phrase would be ambiguous. What do you think of this?

kelku sì taw aean[/quote]

[quote=Tirea Aean]
I'd say house and blue sky; where taw is ean but not necessarily kelku. Again I didn't assume distribution across, even if the adjective is at the end. But I can see how this would work.
Okay, so this very same ambiguity of whether or not the adjective is supposed to distribute exists in Na'vi. I see. But yet we survive.[/quote]

[quote=Paul Frommer]
Yes, exactly, we survive. And as you said, we can disambiguate by moving the word ean in this case.
[/quote]

[quote=Tirea Aean]
Ah, that makes sense. So now we know this basically works more or less exactly like in English.
[...]
[/quote]

And that's pretty much it about that.

I also asked him quickly as an aside about the existence (or non-existence) of the word: le'ul.

[quote=Tirea Aean]
By the way, does le'ul exist? the adjective version of nì'ul? We seem to have run across the same kind of problem we had with nì'aw before. And then le'aw came out to solve it.
You can literally put the word only in any slot at all in an English sentence and it drastically changes the meaning in a different way every time.
It would be useful to have le'ul to say stuff like "More people do X than do Y" as opposed to "People do more X than they do Y"[/quote]

[quote=Paul Frommer]
Ahh. Hmm That's an interesting question.. Let me think about that for a little while and I'll get back to you on that.
[/quote]



Well, there you go. Another confirmation, and possibly one more to come. :)



msg=623547 | topic=26250 | board=99 | time=2015-03-16 05:21:24 | u=10322

Re: Distributive Property of Adjectives

Titstewan

:D Seiyi irayo!

[quote]Another confirmation, and possibly one more to come[/quote]

Oh, looking forward to hear/read it. :)



msg=623572 | topic=26250 | board=99 | time=2015-03-16 20:59:19 | u=7704

Re: Distributive Property of Adjectives

radek.raszka

Interesting discussion! So if I understand well:
eana kelku sì taw = eana {kelku sì taw} = eana kelku sì eana taw (can ambiguous)

while
kelku aean sì taw = {kelku aean} sì taw
kelku sì eana taw = kelku sì {eana taw}  = kelku sì {taw aean}, srak?



msg=623578 | topic=26250 | board=99 | time=2015-03-16 21:46:20 | u=11067

Re: Distributive Property of Adjectives

NaVi_Quebec

So the adjectives don't necessarily distribute. Oh well...
In French, Esperanto and Spanish, no ambiguity would exist since you can add the plural to the adjectives: la maison et le ciel bleus / la bluaj domo kaj ĉielo / la casa y el cielo azules (the sky and the house are blue). But Karyu Pawl is the boss!

[quote=Karyu Pawl]we can disambiguate by moving the word ean in this case.[/quote]
Where?



msg=623594 | topic=26250 | board=99 | time=2015-03-17 03:46:34 | u=430

Re: Distributive Property of Adjectives

TehMightyPirate

I imagine much of this ambiguity can be cleared up by context.

For example if I own a blue house and say "blue house and sky", then you know I mean both are blue because the sky is a known color. I think similar ambiguity in Na'vi could likely be resolved in a similar way. If further clarity was required then double adjectives could easily be used.



msg=623602 | topic=26250 | board=99 | time=2015-03-17 06:05:06 | u=10322

Re: Distributive Property of Adjectives

Titstewan

If I remember me correctly what Tirea explaine to me in TS,

eana kelku sì taw = {eana kelku} sì taw or eana {kelku sì taw} (ambiguous)

kelku aean sì taw = {kelku aean} sì taw (not ambiguous, because very very litteral it is: {kelku [desc=this part describes kelku only]a-ean[/desc]} sì taw [house that is blue and sky])



msg=623629 | topic=26250 | board=99 | time=2015-03-17 21:29:33 | u=11067

Re: Distributive Property of Adjectives

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=26250.msg623602#msg623602 date=1426572306]
If I remember me correctly what Tirea explaine to me in TS,

eana kelku sì taw = {eana kelku} sì taw or eana {kelku sì taw} (ambiguous)

kelku aean sì taw = {kelku aean} sì taw (not ambiguous, because very very litteral it is: {kelku [desc=this part describes kelku only]a-ean[/desc]} sì taw [house that is blue and sky])
[/quote]
oh! Now I understand!



msg=623662 | topic=26250 | board=99 | time=2015-03-18 06:56:25 | u=1975

Re: Distributive Property of Adjectives

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=26250.msg623572#msg623572 date=1426539559]
Interesting discussion! So if I understand well:
eana kelku sì taw = eana {kelku sì taw} = eana kelku sì eana taw (can ambiguous)

while
kelku aean sì taw = {kelku aean} sì taw
kelku sì eana taw = kelku sì {eana taw}  = kelku sì {taw aean}, srak?
[/quote]

Correct. :)

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=26250.msg623578#msg623578 date=1426542380]
So the adjectives don't necessarily distribute. Oh well...
In French, Esperanto and Spanish, no ambiguity would exist since you can add the plural to the adjectives: la maison et le ciel bleus / la bluaj domo kaj ĉielo / la casa y el cielo azules (the sky and the house are blue). But Karyu Pawl is the boss![/quote]

I actually kind of like that we don't have to worry about adding more things.

[quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]we can disambiguate by moving the word ean in this case.[/quote]
Where?
[/quote]

See Blue Elf's post :)

[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=26250.msg623594#msg623594 date=1426563994]
I imagine much of this ambiguity can be cleared up by context.

For example if I own a blue house and say "blue house and sky", then you know I mean both are blue because the sky is a known color. I think similar ambiguity in Na'vi could likely be resolved in a similar way. If further clarity was required then double adjectives could easily be used.
[/quote]

^ Yeah, this.

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=26250.msg623602#msg623602 date=1426572306]
If I remember me correctly what Tirea explaine to me in TS,

eana kelku sì taw = {eana kelku} sì taw or eana {kelku sì taw} (ambiguous)

kelku aean sì taw = {kelku aean} sì taw (not ambiguous, because very very litteral it is: {kelku [desc=this part describes kelku only]a-ean[/desc]} sì taw [house that is blue and sky])
[/quote]

^ And this. It's consistent with my and Blue Elf's posts.

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=26250.msg623629#msg623629 date=1426627773]
[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=26250.msg623602#msg623602 date=1426572306]
If I remember me correctly what Tirea explaine to me in TS,

eana kelku sì taw = {eana kelku} sì taw or eana {kelku sì taw} (ambiguous)

kelku aean sì taw = {kelku aean} sì taw (not ambiguous, because very very litteral it is: {kelku [desc=this part describes kelku only]a-ean[/desc]} sì taw [house that is blue and sky])
[/quote]
oh! Now I understand!
[/quote]

Yep. That's pretty much it. Like I said, there is nothing at all [desc=or Pandora-]Earth[/desc]-shattering going on here that we did not expect could happen.



msg=623668 | topic=26250 | board=99 | time=2015-03-18 09:19:15 | u=7467

Re: Distributive Property of Adjectives

eejmensenikbenhet

Hmm, I never even thought of this as an ambiguity since I'd always (incorrectly, as I know now) link the adjective to the noun directly 'touching' the -a-.
Good to know that I was wrong, learning more every day!



msg=638868 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 08:36:06 | u=631

Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

Plumps83

I was curious about two examples that can be found on the movie line page and this little ‘[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/pseudo-canon-from-bd-live-content/]pseudo canon[/url]’ example, but never made it to the dictionary, i.e. sänume si and zoplo si. I asked Paul about it and he responded.

[quote=K. Pawl, 15 Dec 2015][font=book antiqua]As for the canonical examples for sänume si and zoplo si, the one for sänume si is totally accurate. The example for zoplo si needs a slight adjustment. It's just:

. . . fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.

I didn't have the - on kelkur, and there's no ke before the verb. The original English that I had to translate into Na'vi was: "I have said no dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!" Your Na'vi makes sense, of course, but from a slightly different angle: "No dreamwalker will come here, so as not to offend our home!" Although now I guess that should be fteke, right?[/quote]

The line for sänume si I gave was:

Ma ’ite, awngeyä fya’ori zene nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pivlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng.
My daughter, you will teach him our way to speak and walk as we do.

from the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Na%27vi_from_Avatar_Movie#Scene_in_Hometree]movie line page[/url]

So the line from the pseudo-canon bit should be:

Poltxe oe san zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
I have said no dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!

:D That’s it. Over and out ;)



msg=638873 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 11:39:08 | u=10322

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

Titstewan

Txantsan! :D

So, this line in the LN Wiki
Na'vi: Poltxe oe, san zene kea uniltìranyu, ke ziva'u fìtseng.
English: I have said: “No dreamwalker must not come to this place.”

should be edited to:
Na'vi: Poltxe oe san zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
English: I have said, "No dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!"

Kefyak?



msg=638875 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 12:36:38 | u=5737

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

eanunil

Txantsan! Irayo nìmun ngar, ma Plumps :) Fìlì'u alu zoplo si sunu oer, lesar seiyi!

Ma Tìtstewan, ke spaw oel futa fìpamrelit zene leykivatem fkol, taluna Eytukan poltxe san Poltxe oe, san zene kea uniltìranyu, ke ziva'u fìtseng sìk relmì arusikx alu Uniltìrantokx. Slä ke omum nìno :-\\



msg=638876 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 12:53:07 | u=10322

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

Titstewan

Perhaps, a solution would be adding a new wiki-page with canon movie sentences by Pawl. Hmmm... :-\\



msg=638877 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 13:28:34 | u=631

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

Plumps83

Nìprrte’ ;)

As far as I understand it, it was the original line that he had to translate and the one BD extra that Prrton hinted at was the original script while the actors were still practicing. What’s in the film is correct but just shortened.

I think it will be sufficient to add this to the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]canon[/url]. I wouldn’t change the movie lines.



msg=638878 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 13:50:06 | u=10322

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

Titstewan

OP canonized: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2015]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2015[/url] :)



msg=638879 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 14:10:35 | u=5737

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

eanunil

Kosman  :)



msg=638889 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 16:39:51 | u=11067

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

NaVi_Quebec

So we've got two new interesting words :D



msg=638894 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 17:39:41 | u=16797

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

hhvhhvcz

Txantsan :D Fpìl oel futa oel tìng karmat ngaru ma Plumps! :)

Two new interesting and usselful words are alway good.

So to make myself sure, sänume sivin. has same [desc=meaning]ral[/desc] as karvtr. but only oposite transitivity, kefyak?



msg=638897 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 17:46:46 | u=16745

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

toliman

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27022.msg638889#msg638889 date=1450197591]
So we've got two new interesting words :D
[/quote]
Txantsan  :D



msg=638906 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 19:05:35 | u=7704

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

radek.raszka

Very good, Plumps! Asking the question is the only way to get answers :) But, hmm, I see some problems:
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27022.msg638868#msg638868 date=1450168566]
The line for sänume si I gave was:

Ma ’ite, awngeyä fya’ori zene nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pivlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng.
My daughter, you will teach him our way to speak and walk as we do.
[/quote]
I think correct translations is a little different, although meaning doesn't suffer too much:
My daughter, you must teach him our way to speak and walk as we do. Or more literally: My daughter, related to our way, you must teach him to speak and walk as we do.
But I remember, that in movie was said : ....fte tsivun pilvlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng. That <ilv> is evidently mistake, while <iv> is ok.

[quote]
from the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Na%27vi_from_Avatar_Movie#Scene_in_Hometree]movie line page[/url]

So the line from the pseudo-canon bit should be:

Poltxe oe san zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
I have said no dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!

:D That’s it. Over and out ;)
[/quote]
This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.

It's question whether to use fte/fteke, IMO both is possible and meaning doesn't change. I tend to use fteke, as Paul guessed finally, but it looks more like academic discussion or matter of feeling.



msg=638910 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 19:39:22 | u=10322

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

Titstewan

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27022.msg638906#msg638906 date=1450206335]
This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.

It's question whether to use fte/fteke, IMO both is possible and meaning doesn't change. I tend to use fteke, as Paul guessed finally, but it looks more like academic discussion or matter of feeling.[/quote]
Point 2 looks weird to me, ziva'u would need ke because of kea, or zenke take care of it?.

As for the question where to place ke, there are some examples that shows that ke is before the modal verb.

Sawtuteri ronsemfkeykit ke tsun kawtu tslivam.
‘No one can understand the state of mind of the Sky People.’
[url=http://naviteri.org/2011/04/yafkeykiri-plltxe-frapo-everyone-talks-about-the-weather/]http://naviteri.org/2011/04/yafkeykiri-plltxe-frapo-everyone-talks-about-the-weather/[/url]

Nga ke zene kivä. or Ke zene nga kivä.
‘It’s not necessary/obligatory that you go.’
[url=http://naviteri.org/2011/04/%e2%80%99a%e2%80%99awa-li%e2%80%99fyavi-amip%e2%80%94a-few-new-expressions/]http://naviteri.org/2011/04/%e2%80%99a%e2%80%99awa-li%e2%80%99fyavi-amip%e2%80%94a-few-new-expressions/[/url]

Waweti ke tsun fko ralpiveng.
‘One can’t explain (or: put into words) wawe.’
[url=http://naviteri.org/2011/05/some-miscellaneous-vocabulary/]http://naviteri.org/2011/05/some-miscellaneous-vocabulary/[/url]

And some many more such example with ke + modal coonstructions.



msg=638917 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 20:27:49 | u=7704

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27022.msg638910#msg638910 date=1450208362]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27022.msg638906#msg638906 date=1450206335]
This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.

It's question whether to use fte/fteke, IMO both is possible and meaning doesn't change. I tend to use fteke, as Paul guessed finally, but it looks more like academic discussion or matter of feeling.[/quote]
Point 2 looks weird to me, ziva'u would need ke because of kea, or zenke take care of it?.
[/quote]
Why? According next part, ke goes in front of modal verb, but zenke is negated verb itself, so IMO it takes role of negated modal verb.
[quote]
As for the question where to place ke, there are some examples that shows that ke is before the modal verb.

Sawtuteri ronsemfkeykit ke tsun kawtu tslivam.
‘No one can understand the state of mind of the Sky People.’
[url=http://naviteri.org/2011/04/yafkeykiri-plltxe-frapo-everyone-talks-about-the-weather/]http://naviteri.org/2011/04/yafkeykiri-plltxe-frapo-everyone-talks-about-the-weather/[/url]

Nga ke zene kivä. or Ke zene nga kivä.
‘It’s not necessary/obligatory that you go.’
[url=http://naviteri.org/2011/04/%e2%80%99a%e2%80%99awa-li%e2%80%99fyavi-amip%e2%80%94a-few-new-expressions/]http://naviteri.org/2011/04/%e2%80%99a%e2%80%99awa-li%e2%80%99fyavi-amip%e2%80%94a-few-new-expressions/[/url]

Waweti ke tsun fko ralpiveng.
‘One can’t explain (or: put into words) wawe.’
[url=http://naviteri.org/2011/05/some-miscellaneous-vocabulary/]http://naviteri.org/2011/05/some-miscellaneous-vocabulary/[/url]

And some many more such example with ke + modal coonstructions.
[/quote]
all this makes original example incorrect because of negation after modal verb. Hmmmm......



msg=638918 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 20:40:19 | u=631

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

Plumps83

[quote author=Hahaw[hhvhhvcz] link=topic=27022.msg638894#msg638894 date=1450201181]
Txantsan :D Fpìl oel futa oel tìng karmat ngaru ma Plumps! :) [/quote]

Irayo nìtxan. Slä lu oe fìpo nì’aw a munge ’upxaret ;)

[quote author=Hahaw[hhvhhvcz] link=topic=27022.msg638894#msg638894 date=1450201181]
So to make myself sure, sänume sivin. has same [desc=meaning]ral[/desc] as karvtr. but only oposite transitivity, kefyak?[/quote]

Basically, yes.
I understand sänume si more as “instruct, give instruction”

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27022.msg638906#msg638906 date=1450206335]
Very good, Plumps! Asking the question is the only way to get answers :) But, hmm, I see some problems:
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27022.msg638868#msg638868 date=1450168566]
The line for sänume si I gave was:

Ma ’ite, awngeyä fya’ori zene nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pivlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng.
My daughter, you will teach him our way to speak and walk as we do.
[/quote]
I think correct translations is a little different, although meaning doesn't suffer too much:
My daughter, you must teach him our way to speak and walk as we do. Or more literally: My daughter, related to our way, you must teach him to speak and walk as we do.
But I remember, that in movie was said : ....fte tsivun pilvlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng. That <ilv> is evidently mistake, while <iv> is ok.[/quote]

I took that exactly from the movie line quote. I haven’t seen the film in a while but that’s what the subtitle says… Translations can vary but of course you’re right, a more literal translation is the one you gave.

I was never convinced about the ‹ilv›. As often as I hear Mo’at speak it, I cannot hear ‹ilv›. Paul is usually very thorough with that. If it had been ‹ilv› he would have corrected it in my mail.

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27022.msg638906#msg638906 date=1450206335]
[quote]
Poltxe oe san zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
I have said no dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!

:D That’s it. Over and out ;)
[/quote]
This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.[/quote]

No, I haven’t. But I agree with you… If I were to translate that, I would have used ke zene kea uniltìranyu… or zenke as well. Maybe modal constructs are more flexible than we thought.

I tend to understand the line and don’t have that much of a problem with it as to say straight away that it’s wrong.

We already had a long discussion about multiple negation on another part of the forum, if I remember correctly. I gathered from that that Na’vi even does it differently than languages that have double negation.

I may be in the minority here but I would say for extra emphasis that even ke zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng could be used. Others my disagree ;)



msg=638922 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 21:05:27 | u=7704

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

radek.raszka

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27022.msg638918#msg638918 date=1450212019]
I took that exactly from the movie line quote. I haven’t seen the film in a while but that’s what the subtitle says… Translations can vary but of course you’re right, a more literal translation is the one you gave.

I was never convinced about the ‹ilv›. As often as I hear Mo’at speak it, I cannot hear ‹ilv›. Paul is usually very thorough with that. If it had been ‹ilv› he would have corrected it in my mail.
[/quote]
Well, it can be problem of dubbing. I'll look at that part again, but I remember I could hear it very clearly.
[quote]

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27022.msg638906#msg638906 date=1450206335]
This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.[/quote]

No, I haven’t. But I agree with you… If I were to translate that, I would have used ke zene kea uniltìranyu… or zenke as well. Maybe modal constructs are more flexible than we thought.

I tend to understand the line and don’t have that much of a problem with it as to say straight away that it’s wrong.

We already had a long discussion about multiple negation on another part of the forum, if I remember correctly. I gathered from that that Na’vi even does it differently than languages who have double negation.

I may be in the minority here but I would say for extra emphasis that even ke zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng could be used. Others my disagree ;)
[/quote]
ke zene (don't have to) and zenke (must not) are not interchangeable (I hope i understand there two correctly), so IMO zenke is the only option. Ok, I think I'll write some message to Paul too, this area is quite interesting.



msg=638924 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-15 21:10:16 | u=631

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

Plumps83

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27022.msg638922#msg638922 date=1450213527]
ke zene (don't have to) and zenke (must not) are not interchangeable (I hope i understand there two correctly), so IMO zenke is the only option. Ok, I think I'll write some message to Paul too, this area is quite interesting.
[/quote]

’ä’ … [desc=You are right, of course]ngaru tìyawr kezemplltxe[/desc] ;)



msg=639131 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-19 20:35:06 | u=7704

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

radek.raszka

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27022.msg638922#msg638922 date=1450213527]
Ok, I think I'll write some message to Paul too, this area is quite interesting.
[/quote]
I did so and hope to get answer as small Christmas present :)



msg=639576 | topic=27022 | board=99 | time=2015-12-29 21:00:15 | u=4754

Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27022.msg639131#msg639131 date=1450557306]
[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27022.msg638922#msg638922 date=1450213527]
Ok, I think I'll write some message to Paul too, this area is quite interesting.
[/quote]
I did so and hope to get answer as small Christmas present :)
[/quote]

It looks like negation could work multiple ways with modals. Whatever answer you get should be interesting!



msg=640378 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 13:30:58 | u=11067

New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

NaVi_Quebec

The local newspaper made a report about the Toruk show.  Somehow they were granted access to the scripts, so they could translate the Na'vi for us. I found a new verb, pllhrr, to warn or alert.

Should we wait for the confirmation of Pawl?

Sorry for the bad pic:
[img width=400]http://forum.learnnavi.org/gallery/8/11067-150116182911.jpeg[/img]

(Edit: Corrected, picture posted)



msg=640379 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 14:51:25 | u=10322

Re: pllhrr, a new word?

Titstewan

Perhaps, the LEP smuk should ask Pawl for confirmation. What is pllrr? Apparently alert, warn?
Btw,
[quote=that newspaper]Zene pivllhrr ayolu'ur alahe.
Il faut alerter les autres clans.
(We) must alert other clans.
[/quote]
They made a typo at olo' :P

Regarding new words, in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Shaman_Story]Shaman Story[/url], there appeared a new word: eyawrfya right way
(I suggested to ask Pawl about a written confirmation of this word in the LEP)

EDIT:
[quote=that newspaper]
Lu lor poe.
C'est elle qui est belle.
It is she who is beautiful.[/quote]
^Interesting

EDIT 2:
[url=http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2016/01/15/dans-les-coulisses-de-itoruk---le-premier-envol-i]http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2016/01/15/dans-les-coulisses-de-itoruk---le-premier-envol-i[/url]
just scroll down to "quelques mots en Na'vi" :) It's the same one like the newpaper one.



msg=640384 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 16:48:30 | u=16797

Re: pllhrr, a new word?

hhvhhvcz

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27071.msg640379#msg640379 date=1452869485]
Perhaps, the LEP smuk should ask Pawl for confirmation. What is pllrr? Apparently alert, warn?
Btw,
[/quote]

I think - it's to warm/to alert but  vin. form... but yeah ask Pawl first. :)
[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27071.msg640379#msg640379 date=1452869485]
[quote=that newspaper]Zene pivllhrr ayolu'ur alahe.
Il faut alerter les autres clans.
(We) must alert other clans.
[/quote]
They made a typo at olo' :P [/quote]

It's disappointing that people can't copy thing properly :facepalm:
[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27071.msg640379#msg640379 date=1452869485]
Regarding new words, in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Shaman_Story]Shaman Story[/url], there appeared a new word: eyawrfya right way
(I suggested to ask Pawl about a written confirmation of this word in the LEP)
[/quote]

Even thought it's not official word, it is 'normal' combining two words into one and it's understandable but still unofficial (yet)...
[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27071.msg640379#msg640379 date=1452869485]
EDIT:
[quote=that newspaper]
Lu lor poe.
C'est elle qui est belle.
It is she who is beautiful.[/quote]
^Interesting
EDIT 2:
[url=http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2016/01/15/dans-les-coulisses-de-itoruk---le-premier-envol-i]http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2016/01/15/dans-les-coulisses-de-itoruk---le-premier-envol-i[/url]
just scroll down to "quelques mots en Na'vi" :) It's the same one like the newpaper one.
[/quote]

Thanks for link on the newspaper :D



msg=640386 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 16:59:46 | u=16113

Re: pllhrr, a new word?

Wllìm

Wou! A word for warn! Thanks for posting this!
I guess it would be from plltxe + hrrap tell the danger. So although it is not confirmed yet, I'm quite sure that this word is real. :D

[quote author=Hahaw[hhvhhvcz] link=topic=27071.msg640384#msg640384 date=1452876510]
[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27071.msg640379#msg640379 date=1452869485]
[quote=that newspaper]Zene pivllhrr ayolu'ur alahe.
Il faut alerter les autres clans.
(We) must alert other clans.
[/quote]
They made a typo at olo' :P [/quote]

It's disappointing that people can't copy thing properly :facepalm:
[/quote]

By the way, they also wrote i instead of ì everywhere ;) On the other hand, I can imagine that this is hard for reporters...

Edit: It is interesting that we already have the word penghrrap for the type of plant that warns for danger. For some reason there peng is used and now plltxe.



msg=640387 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 17:03:04 | u=16745

Re: pllhrr, a new word?

toliman

Eltur tìtxen si  :)

[quote author=Wllìm link=topic=27071.msg640386#msg640386 date=1452877186]
I guess it would be from plltxe + hrrap tell the danger.
[/quote]

Yes, it looks logically  :)



msg=640389 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 18:02:59 | u=11067

Re: pllhrr, a new word?

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27071.msg640379#msg640379 date=1452869485]
EDIT 2:
[url=http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2016/01/15/dans-les-coulisses-de-itoruk---le-premier-envol-i]http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2016/01/15/dans-les-coulisses-de-itoruk---le-premier-envol-i[/url]
just scroll down to "quelques mots en Na'vi" :) It's the same one like the newpaper one.
[/quote]
Yeah, the same company as Le Journal de Québec.

Mistakes happen when people are not skilled in a language. ;) But this is a reliable newspaper, so it's a semi-official word.



msg=640402 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 21:53:32 | u=11067

Re: pllhrr, a new word?

NaVi_Quebec

So:

pllhrr vin. alert, warn



msg=640403 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 21:55:44 | u=7704

Re: pllhrr, a new word?

radek.raszka

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27071.msg640402#msg640402 date=1452894812]
So:

pivllhrr vin. alert, warn
[/quote]
What is source, is it official?
I've got soundtrack, so I'll try to hear and analyze (do not expect result early :))



msg=640404 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 21:58:42 | u=11067

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27071.msg640403#msg640403 date=1452894944]
[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27071.msg640402#msg640402 date=1452894812]
So:

pivllhrr vin. alert, warn
[/quote]
What is source, is it official?
I've got soundtrack, so I'll try to hear and analyze (do not expect result early :))
[/quote]
...

The source is above. Journal de Québec/Montréal, Quebecor
And it's almost official because it's not been confirmed by our Karyu.



msg=640411 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 22:55:42 | u=16797

Re: pllhrr, a new word?

hhvhhvcz

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27071.msg640402#msg640402 date=1452894812]
So:

pllhrr vin. alert, warn
[/quote]

Possibru ;)

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27071.msg640403#msg640403 date=1452894944]
[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27071.msg640402#msg640402 date=1452894812]
So:

pivllhrr vin. alert, warn
[/quote]
What is source, is it official?
I've got soundtrack, so I'll try to hear and analyze (do not expect result early :))
[/quote]

Neytiri and also I tried to  catch lines of first two song "Shaman story" song and "Lu 'Aw Na'vi" song. Her results are on Keypuk [url=https://www.facebook.com/KaryuNeytiri/]fìtsenge[/url].

Btw, Both lyrics are already on LN wiki. [desc=certainly thanks to Mr. Tìtstewan]*[/desc]

[spoiler=Lu 'Aw Na'vi]
NìNa'vi:
Awnga lu 'aw,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,
'Awstengyäpem,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,
Lu txur awnga,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,
Seykxel sì txur,
Lu 'aw Na'vi.

Nì'Ìnglìsì:
We are one,
The People are one,
We join ourselves together,
The People are one,
We are strong,
The People are one,
Confident and strong,
The People are one.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Shaman story]
NìNa'vi:
Eyawrfyari zene tslivam,
Fya'ot a mìn kifkey.
Eyawrfyari zene tslivam,
Fya'ot a sngä’i tìrey.

Nì'Ìnglìsì:
As for the right way, (we) must understand,
The way that the world turns.
As for the right way, (we) must understand,
The way that life begins.
[/spoiler]



msg=640412 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-15 22:59:22 | u=4754

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Penghrr - tell-danger
Pllhrr - speak-danger

They are very nearly the same, but different enough that both would be useful. Definitely something for Pawl!



msg=640416 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 01:21:36 | u=16797

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

hhvhhvcz

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=27071.msg640412#msg640412 date=1452898762]
Penghrr - tell-danger
Pllhrr - speak-danger

They are very nearly the same, but different enough that both would be useful. Definitely something for Pawl!
[/quote]




Penghrr
Pllhrr
  - 
  - 
tell-danger
speak-danger
  - 
  - 
warn/alert
warn/alert
  - 
  - 
vtr
vin

My guess, how it could looks like :)



msg=640417 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 01:26:17 | u=11067

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

NaVi_Quebec

Hm... Penghrr could mean report, in the sense of reporting a danger or a misbehaviour.
In any case, I don't think they would create two words for the same thing.

However, I can only attest the existence of pllhrr.



msg=640428 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 16:24:15 | u=7704

Re: pllhrr, a new word?

radek.raszka

[quote author=Hahaw[hhvhhvcz] link=topic=27071.msg640411#msg640411 date=1452898542]
Neytiri and also I tried to  catch lines of first two song "Shaman story" song and "Lu 'Aw Na'vi" song. Her results are on Keypuk [url=https://www.facebook.com/KaryuNeytiri/]fìtsenge[/url].

Btw, Both lyrics are already on LN wiki. [desc=certainly thanks to Mr. Tìtstewan]*[/desc]

[quote=Lu 'Aw Na'vi]
Awnga lu 'aw,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,
'Awstengyäpem,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,
Lu txur awnga,
Lu 'aw Na'vi,
Seykxel sì txur,
Lu 'aw Na'vi.
[/quote]
[/quote]
What source do you use? I've listened to Lu 'aw Na'vi several times, and I hear this:

Awnga lu 'aw
lu 'aw Na'vi
lu txur awnga
lu 'aw Na'vi

I'm wondering whether soundtrack differs from live performance?



msg=640434 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 16:41:48 | u=11067

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

NaVi_Quebec

I think there was an official video where you could read the text.

Edit: Here it is:
https://youtu.be/7HxPwr5Z00o?t=1m12s



msg=640441 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 17:02:40 | u=7704

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

radek.raszka

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27071.msg640434#msg640434 date=1452962508]
I think there was an official video where you could read the text.

Edit: Here it is:
https://youtu.be/7HxPwr5Z00o?t=1m12s
[/quote]
I don't see any written text there and what they sing is still what I can hear in soundtrack...



msg=640442 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 17:03:22 | u=11067

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27071.msg640441#msg640441 date=1452963760]
I don't see any written text there and what they sing is still what I can hear in soundtrack...
[/quote]
What??!! at 1:12 she holds a sheet



msg=640443 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 17:05:21 | u=10322

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

Titstewan

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27071.msg640441#msg640441 date=1452963760]
[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27071.msg640434#msg640434 date=1452962508]
I think there was an official video where you could read the text.

Edit: Here it is:
[url=https://youtu.be/7HxPwr5Z00o?t=1m12s]https://youtu.be/7HxPwr5Z00o?t=1m12s[/url]
[/quote]
I don't see any written text there and what they sing is still what I can hear in soundtrack...[/quote]
Here you go:
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/toruk-the-first-flight-meet-cumie-dunio-the-shaman-of-the-omatikaya-clan/msg636441/#msg636441]http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/toruk-the-first-flight-meet-cumie-dunio-the-shaman-of-the-omatikaya-clan/msg636441/#msg636441[/url]
The screenshot in the spoiler. :)



msg=640444 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 17:06:51 | u=11067

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

NaVi_Quebec

The screenshot doesn't work, because it belongs to the old gallery.



msg=640445 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 17:13:11 | u=10322

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

Titstewan

'ä'! Link fixed. :) :P

EDIT:
I tried to get that screenshot in a little bit better quality:
[img]http://forum.learnnavi.org/gallery/8/10322-160116114335.png[/img]



msg=640457 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 18:11:03 | u=7704

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

radek.raszka

Now it gives sense - I expected text written in video, not text on paper shown in video :). But still - they don't sing what's written there.



msg=640458 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 18:14:15 | u=11067

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27071.msg640457#msg640457 date=1452967863]
Now it gives sense - I expected text written in video, not text on paper shown in video :). But still - they don't sing what's written there.
[/quote]
Tsaw hek.



msg=640459 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 18:23:45 | u=7704

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

radek.raszka

Vurìri Tsahikä frawzo. In Shaman Story I hear the same as Neytiri, although in the beginning it's hard because of multivoices singing different parts :) (I think in it is called [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_%28music%29]canon[/url])



msg=640478 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 21:03:43 | u=4754

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Hahaw[hhvhhvcz] link=topic=27071.msg640416#msg640416 date=1452907296]
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=27071.msg640412#msg640412 date=1452898762]
Penghrr - tell-danger
Pllhrr - speak-danger

They are very nearly the same, but different enough that both would be useful. Definitely something for Pawl!
[/quote]




Penghrr
Pllhrr
  - 
  - 
tell-danger
speak-danger
  - 
  - 
warn/alert
warn/alert
  - 
  - 
vtr
vin

My guess, how it could looks like :)
[/quote]

I would guess both are transitive, because you generally will tell what the danger is. Transitive verbs can always also be used intransitively.



msg=640481 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-16 21:24:30 | u=11067

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=27071.msg640478#msg640478 date=1452978223]
I would guess both are transitive, because you generally will tell what the danger is. Transitive verbs can always also be used intransitively.
[/quote]
I would say intransitive for pllhrr.

Even if I agree with you, it doesn't always work like this. Think about nume, which is intransitive when it could've been transitive. Also, normally, the people you warn are the direct objects. In the sample, the clans are indirect objects. I would compare it with pamtseo si, which is (forced to be) intransitive when in English, the thing you write is the direct object.

But it's only time for guesses. We should get a confirmation by the end of the North American tour.



msg=640520 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-17 16:27:36 | u=631

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

Plumps83

I think it’s legit.
As far as I know, Frommer provided sound examples for the crew of Cirque and will have come up with new vocab if needed. Same as he did with the trailer.

From the derivation I expect this to behave like normal words of speech: either transitive or intransitive (with san … sìk)

Btw, can somebody with wiki-power add this article, i.e. the French flyer to the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Corpus]Corpus page[/url] for refence? I also find it interesting that we get our first example of yaymak here.



msg=640523 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-17 19:49:09 | u=10322

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

Titstewan

I'll will add it to the Wiki right now. :D



msg=640528 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-17 20:28:45 | u=10322

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

Titstewan

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27071.msg640520#msg640520 date=1453048056]
Btw, can somebody with wiki-power add this article, i.e. the French flyer to the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Corpus]Corpus page[/url] for refence? I also find it interesting that we get our first example of yaymak here.[/quote]
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Corpus#Cirque_du_Soleil:_Toruk_-_The_First_Flight]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Corpus#Cirque_du_Soleil:_Toruk_-_The_First_Flight[/url]
^Fìtsenge. :D (I've added the original Na'vi text as well as a corrected one. (fixed the missing ì and that typo at ayolo'ur)
Btw, can someone with French language power check my English translations?



msg=640540 | topic=27071 | board=99 | time=2016-01-17 23:53:33 | u=11067

Re: New vocabulary from Toruk - The First Flight

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27071.msg640528#msg640528 date=1453062525]
Btw, can someone with French language power check my English translations?
[/quote]
Perfect!



msg=644675 | topic=27272 | board=99 | time=2016-05-12 20:24:15 | u=16141

Language updates - any news ?

marcin1509

Hello :)
Is there any news about Na'vi ?
I have visited na'viteri and there is the last post published in December 2015.
Dictionary is updated in December too.
Regards



msg=644678 | topic=27272 | board=99 | time=2016-05-12 23:58:01 | u=1975

Re: Language updates - any news ?

Ean Tirea

The creator has been busy and vocabulary hasn't been released as quickly as it has been in the past. Plus grammar is largely known and only few small details are not known.

You can be sure that as soon as any news or updates occur, they will definitely be posted on Na'viteri and this forum board. :)

Stuff is just a bit slow lately. It won't be slow forever though. ;)



msg=644691 | topic=27272 | board=99 | time=2016-05-13 19:08:45 | u=7704

Re: Language updates - any news ?

radek.raszka

We have received news that Paul plans to publish several posts on Naviteri in near future. So be patient - Na'vi is not dead.



msg=644693 | topic=27272 | board=99 | time=2016-05-13 19:13:35 | u=10322

Re: Language updates - any news ?

Titstewan

Also, language updates and vocabulary will be published if they are ready to be published by Pawl. :)



msg=644713 | topic=27273 | board=99 | time=2016-05-14 17:00:37 | u=5169

New word from karyu Pawl [tsamkuk]

Perry Rhodan

Hi all together.

There is a new word, I got directly from Paul after emailing with him.
I sent him an text where I built a word for "[url=http://dict-navi.com/de/dictionary/term/7546/]war drum[/url]", because there wasn´t a word for this
and I asked him to record a short spoken text for me (which includes the plural of this word).

He answered me the following:

[quote=Paul Frommer]
Kaltxì ma 'eveng te atan,

[...]
And I´ve recorded the words in a fifth file. (By the way, the word for war drum is tsamkuk.
I don´t believe I´ve revealed that one yet. Plural, of course, is (ay)samkuk. [...]
[/quote]

So I added this word in the [url=http://dict-navi.com/de/dictionary/term/7546/]german section[/url] of the DICT.

I couldn´t add the english (and/or) other translations because after doing this, the german
translation was overweitten every time, I tried.

Regards,

'eveng te atan.



msg=644714 | topic=27273 | board=99 | time=2016-05-14 17:29:30 | u=10322

Re: New word from karyu Pawl [tsamkuk]

Titstewan

Txantsan ulte irayo!

Look like -kuk part could be an additional word for drum or kind of a drum like au for drum that is made of skin. :) Interesting.


Edit: below me:
Yes, takuk was the word I had in my mind, too. hrh



msg=644715 | topic=27273 | board=99 | time=2016-05-14 17:35:49 | u=1975

Re: New word from karyu Pawl [tsamkuk]

Ean Tirea

Probably could come from takuk, to strike/hit



msg=644716 | topic=27273 | board=99 | time=2016-05-14 17:39:24 | u=16745

Re: New word from karyu Pawl [tsamkuk]

toliman

Txantsan  :)

Interesting new word.

[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=27273.msg644715#msg644715 date=1463247349]
Probably could come from takuk, to strike/hit
[/quote]
I think too



msg=644717 | topic=27273 | board=99 | time=2016-05-14 17:44:05 | u=7704

Re: New word from karyu Pawl [tsamkuk]

radek.raszka

Good - new word after long time!

For adding this word to English part of dict-navi try to ask Plumps - I think he can do that. When it is done, word becomes available to other translators.

Related to -kuk, my idea is it comes from takuk (strike), so it sounds like war strike / strike of war. I don't think -kuk is related to drums, so far we have two king of drums: au and wokau. Both based on au, so either this new one comes from pre-au time  ;D or my explanation works. Or something else ???



msg=644731 | topic=27273 | board=99 | time=2016-05-14 23:07:18 | u=631

Re: New word from karyu Pawl [tsamkuk]

Plumps83

[quote author=´eveng te atan link=topic=27273.msg644713#msg644713 date=1463245237]
[quote=Paul Frommer]
Kaltxì ma 'eveng te atan,

[...]
And I´ve recorded the words in a fifth file. (By the way, the word for war drum is tsamkuk.
I don´t believe I´ve revealed that one yet. Plural, of course, is (ay)samkuk. [...]
[/quote][/quote]

Yes, I will edit it into the dictionary.

Any word on stress? (tsamkuk or tsamkuk) If he didn’t indicate it in the mail via underlining, maybe we can hear it out from the recording he made?



msg=644761 | topic=27273 | board=99 | time=2016-05-15 20:34:23 | u=5169

Re: New word from karyu Pawl [tsamkuk]

Perry Rhodan

Plumps and I heared the spoken word from Paul and we
both think that it is spoken like "TSAMkuk".

'eveng te atan.



msg=646230 | topic=27364 | board=99 | time=2016-08-12 20:36:11 | u=16113

Pawl and other conlangers are doing an AMA

Wllìm

Okay, this may not be a real language update but I don't know where to post it otherwise... but David Petersen, Christine Schreyer, David Peterson and Karyu Pawl are hosting an AMA ("ask me anything") session on reddit [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4xehwa/mathnuqtxìtan_we_are_marc_okrand_creator_of/]here[/url]. As for Na'vi: lots of it we already know, but there are some interesting background stories about how Na'vi was created. It's also very interesting to read about the other conlangs.

Edit: someone asked the following question in Na'vi and Pawl even responded in Na'vi:
[quote=gloubenterder]
Dyeymzkemerenìl kan ngalyop tsìngrelit aruikx teri ayuniltìrantokx. Srake ngal omum vurìl?
("Dyeymz Kemeren intends to make four moving pictures about dreamwalkers. Do you know the story?")
([url=https://m.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4xehwa/mathnuqtxìtan_we_are_marc_okrand_creator_of/d6ev6pv]source[/url])
[/quote]

[quote=Karyu Pawl]
(I'm impressed!) Ngeyä tì'pawmìri seiyi oe irayo, ma 'eylan. Slä zene pivlltxe, ke omängum oel vurit fayrelarusikxä. (Thanks for your question, friend. But I have to say, I unfortunately don't know the story of these films.)

I do know a few things about them that the public doesn't know, but I hope to know a lot more soon. :-)
[/quote]

I'm not sure whether this shows that rel arusikx can be written as relarusikx (otherwise it would be relä arusikx, kefyak?), or that it was just a typo :)

Edit 2:
[quote=Karyu Pawl]
(...) in a few cases I've created "tribute words" in Na'vi that are based on someone's name, someone I want to honor. So there's a word in Na'vi that's actually my brother's name spelled backwards. Thing is, the backwards version fits perfectly into the Na'vi sound system, so it's very natural, and no one would know unless they were told.
([url=https://m.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4xehwa/comment/d6ezlgy]source[/url])
[/quote]
Wow :o

I have an idea which word this could be, but I'm not sure if Pawl would like his brother's name out on the Internet, so I think it is better to refrain from posting it here.



msg=646233 | topic=27364 | board=99 | time=2016-08-13 01:29:15 | u=11067

Re: Pawl and other conlangers are doing an AMA

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Wllìm link=topic=27364.msg646230#msg646230 date=1471034171]
I'm not sure whether this shows that rel arusikx can be written as relarusikx (otherwise it would be relä arusikx, kefyak?), or that it was just a typo :)
[/quote]
This thing deserves some mini-reflection.
Personally, I highly doubt that, given the quality of the message, he would destroy the Na'vi language at one special place.



msg=646235 | topic=27364 | board=99 | time=2016-08-13 09:02:01 | u=16113

Re: Pawl and other conlangers are doing an AMA

Wllìm

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27364.msg646233#msg646233 date=1471051755]
[quote author=Wllìm link=topic=27364.msg646230#msg646230 date=1471034171]
I'm not sure whether this shows that rel arusikx can be written as relarusikx (otherwise it would be relä arusikx, kefyak?), or that it was just a typo :)
[/quote]
This thing deserves some mini-reflection.
Personally, I highly doubt that, given the quality of the message, he would destroy the Na'vi language at one special place.
[/quote]

I think it is a mistake. Consider that the Na'vi don't have movies themselves. They will use rel arusikx only when talking about skypeople, so not very often. I think it is not a phrase used frequently enough that it would become one word.



msg=646238 | topic=27364 | board=99 | time=2016-08-13 12:19:21 | u=16745

Re: Pawl and other conlangers are doing an AMA

toliman

[quote author=Wllìm link=topic=27364.msg646235#msg646235 date=1471078921]
[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27364.msg646233#msg646233 date=1471051755]
[quote author=Wllìm link=topic=27364.msg646230#msg646230 date=1471034171]
I'm not sure whether this shows that rel arusikx can be written as relarusikx (otherwise it would be relä arusikx, kefyak?), or that it was just a typo :)
[/quote]
This thing deserves some mini-reflection.
Personally, I highly doubt that, given the quality of the message, he would destroy the Na'vi language at one special place.
[/quote]

I think it is a mistake. Consider that the Na'vi don't have movies themselves. They will use rel arusikx only when talking about skypeople, so not very often. I think it is not a phrase used frequently enough that it would become one word.
[/quote]
I think that it's right idea - Na'vi really don't have movies themselves
I also think that it's only typo  :)



msg=646239 | topic=27364 | board=99 | time=2016-08-13 12:24:17 | u=10322

Re: Pawl and other conlangers are doing an AMA

Titstewan

Interesting information. As for rel arusikx, I think it's a typo, too. But also interesting is this:
...tsìngrelit aruikx teri ayuniltìrantokx...
four movie aka tetralogy?



msg=646242 | topic=27364 | board=99 | time=2016-08-13 14:38:25 | u=16113

Re: Pawl and other conlangers are doing an AMA

Wllìm

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27364.msg646239#msg646239 date=1471091057]
Interesting information. As for rel arusikx, I think it's a typo, too. But also interesting is this:
...tsìngrelit aruikx teri ayuniltìrantokx...
four movie aka tetralogy?
[/quote]

Well, this was written by the person who asked the question, who asked questions in five (!) conlangs. They said they were fluent in Klingon only, so I think it is very impressive they managed to write understandable questions in the four other languages :) See the original post [url=https://m.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4xehwa/mathnuqtx%C3%ACtan_we_are_marc_okrand_creator_of/d6ev6pv]here[/url].

I guess they looked at the grammar description, found out that you should use merel two images and pxerel three images, looked up tsìng four and, kind of logically, thought that four images would be tsìngrel.



msg=646244 | topic=27364 | board=99 | time=2016-08-13 15:29:24 | u=10322

Re: Pawl and other conlangers are doing an AMA

Titstewan

Oh, I see. The posting style of Reddit confused me, lol.

[quote author=Wllìm link=topic=27364.msg646242#msg646242 date=1471099105]
I guess they looked at the grammar description, found out that you should use merel two images and pxerel three images, looked up tsìng four and, kind of logically, thought that four images would be tsìngrel.[/quote]
I think so.

As for relarusikx, I could ask Pawl about it. :)



msg=646245 | topic=27364 | board=99 | time=2016-08-13 17:44:08 | u=7704

Re: Pawl and other conlangers are doing an AMA

radek.raszka

[quote author=Wllìm link=topic=27364.msg646242#msg646242 date=1471099105]
[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27364.msg646239#msg646239 date=1471091057]
Interesting information. As for rel arusikx, I think it's a typo, too. But also interesting is this:
...tsìngrelit aruikx teri ayuniltìrantokx...
four movie aka tetralogy?
[/quote]

Well, this was written by the person who asked the question, who asked questions in five (!) conlangs. They said they were fluent in Klingon only, so I think it is very impressive they managed to write understandable questions in the four other languages :) See the original post [url=https://m.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4xehwa/mathnuqtx%C3%ACtan_we_are_marc_okrand_creator_of/d6ev6pv]here[/url].

I guess they looked at the grammar description, found out that you should use merel two images and pxerel three images, looked up tsìng four and, kind of logically, thought that four images would be tsìngrel.
[/quote]
Apparently - if you look at original message, there's more mistakes, so it was written by someone, who has some knowledge of Na'vi, but not too deep (two agentives in sentence, typo in arusikx, transliteration of James Cameron)
[quote]Dyeymzkemerenìl kan ngalyop tsìngrelit aruikx teri ayuniltìrantokx. Srake ngal omum vurìl[/quote]
So let's don't search new rules here :)

Pawl's answer is something different (as he is expert and creator of language),
[quote]... ke omängum oel vurit fayrelarusikxä[/quote]
but I believe it is just typo or mistake, correct form must be fayrelä arusikx, based on dictionary.



msg=646341 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-16 19:20:16 | u=7704

Expressions of "like we"

radek.raszka

Some longer time ago I've found interesting problem - what is difference between nìayoeng and pxel/na ayoeng. Finally, a few days back, I asked the right person and today response came. So here's some piece of knowledge:
[quote=Blue Elf]
I’d like to consult  quite simple question, which has two answers: how to say in Na’vi expressions “like/as you”, “like/as we” and similar?
First answer is well known – we have adpositions pxel / na, so we can use sentence like:
Oe tul nìftxan nìwin na (pxel) nga -> I run as fast as you.

In movie, we can see this example of another option:
Ma ’ite, awngeyä fya’ori zene nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pivlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng ->  My daughter, you will teach him our way to speak and walk as we do.

Is it possible to use pxel ayoeng here? Is there any difference between nìayoeng and pxel (na) ayoeng and if yes, what is preferred form and why? And are we free to create our own derivations with nì- ? Some time ago I have read this example of Plumps:
Zun oe lirvu nga, zel tsakem ateng sivi nìnga -> If I would you, I would do something similar like you.

This usage surprised me for a moment, until I remembered example from movie. So – what‘s your opinion about this question?
[/quote]
And what Paul answered?
[quote]
You ask an interesting question. First of all, concerning forms like nìayoeng (pronounced as if it were nay.WENG): yes these are productive with all pronouns: nìoe [nì.O.e], nìnga, etc.

Na/pxel and the nì- forms, with these pronouns, are sometimes interchangeable. In sentences that use nìftxan, however, the only the na/pxel form is used:
Oe tul nìftxan nìwin na/pxel nga.

But not:
*Oe tul nìftxan nìwin nìnga.

In cases that don't involve nìftxan, you sometimes have a choice between na/pxel and the nì- forms. The difference is that na/pxel is used more for how someone or something is perceived--for example, how someone looks. Example:
Key peyä na pum ngeyä lu. -> His face is like yours.

The nì- forms, on the other hand, are better used for actions. The translation of nìayoeng, for example, is usually best as "as we do." If there were an English word "us-ly," that would be a good translation too. :-)
Plltxe po nìayoeng. -> She speaks like us. -OR- She speaks as we do.

Hope that clarifies thing a bit!
[/quote]
So - now it's clear. Learn and use.  :)



msg=646342 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-16 19:32:57 | u=11067

Re: Expressions of "like we"

NaVi_Quebec

Yay for some more piece of knowledge!
[spoiler]Should it be included in Horen?[/spoiler]



msg=646343 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-16 19:58:15 | u=631

Re: Expressions of "like we"

Plumps83

Good to have confirmation. Irayo nìtxan, ma Blue Elf.

Somehow I suspected it would be used like that but I couldn’t have put it in words like awngeyä Karyu Pawl :D



msg=646347 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-16 20:53:59 | u=1975

Re: Expressions of &quot;like we&quot;

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27371.msg646343#msg646343 date=1471377495]
Good to have confirmation. Irayo nìtxan, ma Blue Elf.

Somehow I suspected it would be used like that but I couldn’t have put it in words like awngeyä Karyu Pawl :D

[/quote]
^ this.

Irayo :)



msg=646354 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-16 22:28:28 | u=11067

Re: Expressions of "like we"

NaVi_Quebec

[quote=Karyu Pawl]yes these are productive with all pronouns: nìoe [nì.O.e], nìnga, etc. [/quote]
Since it's all the pronouns (well, not the possessive pronouns), can we use the pronoun fwa followed by the attributive clause (fì'u a [attributive]) and form nìfwa?

Example:

Pol plltxe aylì'ut atsleng nìfwa syeha si.
Pol plltxe aylì'ut atsleng nìfì'u a syeha si.
He lies like he breathes.

Po taron nìfwa srew krrka säeoio.
He hunts like he dances during ceremonies.

Or is nìfya'o necessary?

I suppose that if we can say nìfya'o a..., then nìtuteo a will be considered correct, too?
Finally, does nìpum or even nìpum a... work?



msg=646356 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-16 22:38:04 | u=631

Re: Expressions of "like we"

Plumps83

I don’t think that’s possible (except for nìfya’o a … because that has another meaning)

We have examples with an adposition + fwa clause which is called for here, I think.

Pol plltxe aylì’ut atsleng na fwa syeha si.
He lies like he breathes.

Po taron na fwa srew krrka aysä’eoio.
He hunts like he dances during ceremonies.



msg=646357 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-16 22:43:30 | u=11067

Re: Expressions of "like we"

NaVi_Quebec

Ok, so except for nìfya'o a any nì[pronoun] a is not possible?
Is nìpum without a possible anyway?



msg=646358 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-17 05:17:40 | u=10322

Re: Expressions of "like we"

Titstewan

Txantsana fmawn ulte irayo, ma Blue Elf! :D



msg=646359 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-17 09:06:01 | u=7704

Re: Expressions of "like we"

radek.raszka

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27371.msg646354#msg646354 date=1471386508]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]yes these are productive with all pronouns: nìoe [nì.O.e], nìnga, etc. [/quote]
Since it's all the pronouns (well, not the possessive pronouns), can we use the pronoun fwa followed by the attributive clause (fì'u a [attributive]) and form nìfwa?

Example:

Pol plltxe aylì'ut atsleng nìfwa syeha si.
Pol plltxe aylì'ut atsleng nìfì'u a syeha si.
He lies like he breathes.

Po taron nìfwa srew krrka säeoio.
He hunts like he dances during ceremonies.

Or is nìfya'o necessary?

I suppose that if we can say nìfya'o a..., then nìtuteo a will be considered correct, too?
Finally, does nìpum or even nìpum a... work?
[/quote]
I don't think nì- can be combined with f-words, is true these are defined as pronouns, but also as subordinators (they start subordinate clause), so clearly you need nìfya'o a to start subclause. (IMHO f-words should considered subordinators only).
Tuteo is not pronoun, it's (indefinite) noun, so Paul's answers does not apply here.
And related nìpum - pum is something special, it's "repeater" of previously mentioned noun/pronoun, so it can work in some contexts, but not in others. I'd would avoid it's usage.
Personally I would use nì- + pronoun only for personal pronouns, nothing else.
But I can try to ask more about this theme.



msg=646362 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-17 12:17:16 | u=11067

Re: Expressions of "like we"

NaVi_Quebec

Understood, thanks!
[quote]But I can try to ask more about this theme.[/quote]
If there are other grammatical patterns (with nì- or something else) that make sense and are possible/useful.



msg=646411 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-22 02:23:13 | u=1975

Re: Expressions of "like we"

Ean Tirea

I don't even count the F-words and Tsa-words as pronouns.

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27371.msg646357#msg646357 date=1471387410]
Ok, so except for nìfya'o a any nì[pronoun] a is not possible?[/quote]

Not thinking so.

But this:
[quote]Is nìpum without a possible anyway?
[/quote]

Is indeed an interesting question. Would be cool if it were possible. Then we'd have another way (other than Na/pxel) to say something like "he looks like a syaksyuk and acts like one too" ;D



msg=646420 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-22 19:00:02 | u=6105

Re: Expressions of "like we"

Tanri

I'd say that nì- is productive with personal pronouns only (oe, nga, po, ...saylahe)  :)



msg=646428 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-22 23:53:51 | u=1975

Re: Expressions of &quot;like we&quot;

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=27371.msg646420#msg646420 date=1471892402]
I'd say that nì- is productive with personal pronouns only (oe, nga, po, ...saylahe)  :)
[/quote]
That's what I gather from OP as well



msg=646430 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-23 01:54:50 | u=1550

Re: Expressions of "like we"

Taras

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27371.msg646357#msg646357 date=1471387410]
Is nìpum without a possible anyway?
[/quote]

I see no meaning in this expression. :-\\



msg=646431 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-23 02:03:36 | u=11067

Re: Expressions of "like we"

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=27371.msg646430#msg646430 date=1471917290]
[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27371.msg646357#msg646357 date=1471387410]
Is nìpum without a possible anyway?
[/quote]

I see no meaning in this expression. :-\\
[/quote]
Example: Ngal tse'a fìsyaksyukit srak? Kem rä'ä sivi *nìpum!
But it may as well be possible for personal pronouns only.



msg=646432 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-23 03:09:16 | u=1975

Re: Expressions of &quot;like we&quot;

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=27371.msg646430#msg646430 date=1471917290]
[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27371.msg646357#msg646357 date=1471387410]
Is nìpum without a possible anyway?
[/quote]

I see no meaning in this expression. :-\\
[/quote]
For cases like:

"...[Noun]... (does/doesn't) [verb] like one."
E.g.: "It appears to be a teylu but doesn't taste like one."

Na pum is already legal of course, but the question is, Is "nìpum" a legal alternative, parallel to the personal pronouns, like revealed in OP. I'm satisfied either way. Though I suspect *nìpum probably isn't a thing



msg=646438 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-23 17:22:53 | u=7704

Re: Expressions of "like we"

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tanri link=topic=27371.msg646420#msg646420 date=1471892402]
I'd say that nì- is productive with personal pronouns only (oe, nga, po, ...saylahe)  :)
[/quote]
That's my idea too. I've sent additional question related this to Paul, but no answer....



msg=646439 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2016-08-23 17:25:57 | u=11067

Re: Expressions of "like we"

NaVi_Quebec

@Tirea In your case *nìpum wouldn't work because there's no action in ''tasting''.
And the usage of *nìpum could be so rare that Na'vi don't use it.

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27371.msg646438#msg646438 date=1471972973]
[quote author=Tanri link=topic=27371.msg646420#msg646420 date=1471892402]
I'd say that nì- is productive with personal pronouns only (oe, nga, po, ...saylahe)  :)
[/quote]
That's my idea too. I've sent additional question related this to Paul, but no answer....
[/quote]
Let's be patient. In 8 days he might come up with an answer.



msg=650087 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2017-02-20 17:50:00 | u=10322

Re: Expressions of "like we"

Titstewan

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27371.msg646439#msg646439 date=1471973157]
Let's be patient. In 8 days he might come up with an answer.[/quote]
And half year later?
It would be interesting to know whether nì- is productive with personal pronous only[desc=which I would say]*[/desc]. :)



msg=650100 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2017-02-20 21:27:15 | u=1975

Re: Expressions of &quot;like we&quot;

Ean Tirea



[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27371.msg650087#msg650087 date=1487613000]
And half year later?
It would be interesting to know whether nì- is productive with personal pronous only[desc=which I would say]*[/desc]. :)
[/quote]

I would say the same based on current evidence. But I'm not saying it's for certain.

via LG-K550 (Tapatalk)




msg=650215 | topic=27371 | board=99 | time=2017-02-22 19:45:49 | u=7704

Re: Expressions of "like we"

radek.raszka

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27371.msg650087#msg650087 date=1487613000]
[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27371.msg646439#msg646439 date=1471973157]
Let's be patient. In 8 days he might come up with an answer.[/quote]
And half year later?
It would be interesting to know whether nì- is productive with personal pronous only[desc=which I would say]*[/desc]. :)
[/quote]
Unfortunately, there was no answer....



msg=646498 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-08-26 14:28:24 | u=10322

Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

Titstewan

So, few days back, I have reminded Pawl about an old question regarding possibility of combination of <äp>/<eyk> +< us>/<awn>

Ayngar fì'u:
:)
================================
[...]
So, let's see:

[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=25569.0]As you know, äp + awn is impossible[/url]. There are then 4 possible combinations to consider:

äp + eyk
äp + us
eyk + awn
eyk + us
.

All 4 of these ARE possible, at least with certain verbs in certain situations. Here are some examples:

äp + eyk

There was an example in one of my blog posts, from April 30, 2015. It concerned the verb 'rrko 'roll.'

http://naviteri.org/2015/04/some-new-words-for-may-day/

And if you yourself are rolling—i.e., causing yourself to roll—use <eyk> along with the reflexive infix <äp>:

Tseyk ’äpeykamrrko äo utral a zolup fte hivifwo ftu aysre’ palulukanä.

‘Jake rolled under the fallen tree to escape from the thanator’s teeth.’

That is, Jake caused (<eyk>) himself (<äp>) to roll . . .

äp + us

You yourself gave a good examples of this combination in your first email a couple of years ago. You considered it ungrammatical in Na'vi, but actually, I think it's OK:

Oel tse'a ioangit ayäpusur.
'I see a self-washing animal.'
German: Ich sehe ein sich selbstwaschendes Tier.

The English translation, though, might be a little different: 'I see an animal (that is in the process of) washing itself.' That's a bit different from 'I see a self-washing animal.' The former sentence implies you're watching an animal that is in the process of washing itself; the latter typically means you're watching an animal that has the general characteristic of being able to wash itself, even though it may not be doing that at the present moment. Right now I think that both interpretations are OK in Na'vi, but I need to think about that some more. If you or anyone else has thoughts about this, I'd like to hear them!

My German isn't good enough to know whether or not the German version you've provided can have that meaning as well.

You also gave another example:

Lu oeru piak-säpusia sähena.
I have a self-opening container.
German: Ich habe einen (sich) selbstöffnenden Behälter.

This could also mean: 'I have a container (that is in the process of) opening itself.' Of course that meaning is a bit bizarre.

eyk + awn

A good example of this involves the verb zup 'fall.' As you know, the causative version of this, zeykup, means 'drop (deliberately).' So zeykawnup is the participle meaning 'dropped': rum azeykawnup, 'a (deliberately) dropped ball.'

eyk + us

As you pointed out, [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/07/vocabulary-update/comment-page-1/#comment-95]I had mentioned in a comment[/url] that zeykuso is a correct word. An example of its use might be: 'ewll azeykuso 'a healing plant'--that is, a plant with healing properties.

[...]

ta Pawl

================================

I've replied back also to clarify the question if tì+us with <äp>/<eyk> would be possible too.
:palulukan:



msg=646502 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-08-26 15:00:49 | u=10322

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

Titstewan

[quote=Vawmataw on Today at 09:56:55 am]
[quote]I've replied back also to clarify the question if tì+us would be possible too.[/quote]
Valid via Horen 6.9.2.? ???[/quote]
Yes, but I mean tì + us in eyk/äp words, of course. :)



msg=646503 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-08-26 15:07:36 | u=1550

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

Taras

Txantsana fmawn! Fìtxeleri oeyä fpìlfya sì tì'efu lamu teng nìwotx :D Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmukan! :D :D :D



msg=646504 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-08-26 15:18:18 | u=11067

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

NaVi_Quebec

[quote]The English translation, though, might be a little different: 'I see an animal (that is in the process of) washing itself.' That's a bit different from 'I see a self-washing animal.' The former sentence implies you're watching an animal that is in the process of washing itself; the latter typically means you're watching an animal that has the general characteristic of being able to wash itself, even though it may not be doing that at the present moment. Right now I think that both interpretations are OK in Na'vi, but I need to think about that some more. If you or anyone else has thoughts about this, I'd like to hear them![/quote]
Yeah, it's a good question. The thing is that <us> is the gerund and the past participle.
To remove any ambiguity I would say:
Oel tse'a ioangit a yäp(er)ur.

Otherwise I think the context may sort out things, but in case of true ambiguity maybe <us> isn't the best choice.

Example:
Sngum rä'ä sivi. Tsatsengeri suteru smon hufwe atusul. The people of that place are familiar with the fast wind.
Nìfe' txolula a 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul. The fast winds displaces the badly built camps.
Tusula hufwetalun sweylu ke tswivayon fìtrr. Due to the fast wind, we shouldn't fly today. (It's windy, or it's not right now but we shouldn't take risks.) If it's windy right now: Terul a hufwetalun sweylu ke tswivayon fìtrr.

[spoiler][quote]I've replied back also to clarify the question if tì+us would be possible too.[/quote]
Valid via Horen 6.9.2.? ???

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27379.msg646502#msg646502 date=1472223649]
[quote=Vawmataw on Today at 09:56:55 am]
[quote]I've replied back also to clarify the question if tì+us would be possible too.[/quote]
Valid via Horen 6.9.2.? ???[/quote]
Yes, but I mean tì + us in eyk/awn words, of course. :)
[/quote]
oh ok
And how did you read this? I deleted my message.[/spoiler]



msg=646505 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-08-26 15:27:17 | u=10322

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

Titstewan

Tstunwi, ma Kemaweyan! :)

================

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27379.msg646504#msg646504 date=1472224698]
[spoiler][quote]I've replied back also to clarify the question if tì+us would be possible too.[/quote]
Valid via Horen 6.9.2.? ???

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27379.msg646502#msg646502 date=1472223649]
[quote=Vawmataw on Today at 09:56:55 am]
[quote]I've replied back also to clarify the question if tì+us would be possible too.[/quote]
Valid via Horen 6.9.2.? ???[/quote]
Yes, but I mean tì + us in eyk/awn words, of course. :)
[/quote]
oh ok
And how did you read this? I deleted my message.[/spoiler][/quote]
[spoiler]I've quoted your text before you have deleted it...[/spoiler]



msg=646511 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-08-26 21:00:04 | u=631

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

Plumps83

Eltur tìtxen si…

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27379.msg646498#msg646498 date=1472221704]
Oel tse'a ioangit ayäpusur.
'I see a self-washing animal.'
German: Ich sehe ein sich selbstwaschendes Tier.

The English translation, though, might be a little different: 'I see an animal (that is in the process of) washing itself.' That's a bit different from 'I see a self-washing animal.' The former sentence implies you're watching an animal that is in the process of washing itself; the latter typically means you're watching an animal that has the general characteristic of being able to wash itself, even though it may not be doing that at the present moment. Right now I think that both interpretations are OK in Na'vi, but I need to think about that some more. If you or anyone else has thoughts about this, I'd like to hear them!

My German isn't good enough to know whether or not the German version you've provided can have that meaning as well. [/quote]

I think it can.
But that’s the case with all active participles in German, same as in Na’vi tusarona palulukan can be rendered as “a hunting thanator” or “a thanator that hunts” (teraron a palulukan).


[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27379.msg646498#msg646498 date=1472221704]
Lu oeru piak-säpusia sähena.
I have a self-opening container.
German: Ich habe einen (sich) selbstöffnenden Behälter.[/quote]


[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27379.msg646498#msg646498 date=1472221704]
eyk + us

As you pointed out, [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/07/vocabulary-update/comment-page-1/#comment-95]I had mentioned in a comment[/url] that zeykuso is a correct word. An example of its use might be: 'ewll azeykusup 'a healing plant'--that is, a plant with healing properties.[/quote]

Surely he meant azeykuso ;)



msg=646512 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-08-26 22:18:50 | u=10322

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

Titstewan

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27379.msg646511#msg646511 date=1472245204]
[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27379.msg646498#msg646498 date=1472221704]
Lu oeru piak-säpusia sähena.
I have a self-opening container.
German: Ich habe einen (sich) selbstöffnenden Behälter.[/quote][/quote]
Oh derp, I see what I did there. That example is actually two years old, and I haven't changed the original examples. :-[

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27379.msg646511#msg646511 date=1472245204]
[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27379.msg646498#msg646498 date=1472221704]
eyk + us

As you pointed out, [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/07/vocabulary-update/comment-page-1/#comment-95]I had mentioned in a comment[/url] that zeykuso is a correct word. An example of its use might be: 'ewll azeykusup 'a healing plant'--that is, a plant with healing properties.[/quote]

Surely he meant azeykuso ;)[/quote]
*checks the email* I think, he had the previous word/sentence in mind when he wrote that example.


*fix the OP*



msg=646636 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-09-02 19:39:09 | u=7704

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

radek.raszka

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27379.msg646504#msg646504 date=1472224698]
Otherwise I think the context may sort out things, but in case of true ambiguity maybe <us> isn't the best choice.

Example:
Sngum rä'ä sivi. Tsatsengeri suteru smon hufwe atusul. The people of that place are familiar with the fast wind.
Nìfe' txolula a 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul. The fast winds displaces the badly built camps.
Tusula hufwetalun sweylu ke tswivayon fìtrr. Due to the fast wind, we shouldn't fly today. (It's windy, or it's not right now but we shouldn't take risks.) If it's windy right now: Terul a hufwetalun sweylu ke tswivayon fìtrr.
[/quote]
I think some of your examples are not correct, I'd prefer these modifications:
Nìfe' txawnula 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul. <ol> marks finished action, but in red part is missing object or subject - that's why passive participle is needed. Basic sentence is 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul - and txula part works as adjective describing 'awm. And there's no way how to change verb to adjective except us/awm - or subclause, so also this is possible:
Fkol nìfe' txolula a 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul (IMHO better: 'Awmit a nìfe' fkol txolula 'ärìp hufwel atusul)

Sweylu has very specific usage - with txo or fwa, so you need to add it:
Sweylu txo ke tswivayon fìtrr ayoeng tusula hufwetalun.
or
Sweylu txo ke tswivayon fìtrr ayoeng taluna hufwe terul (set).
(compare with [url=http://naviteri.org/2011/04/%E2%80%99a%E2%80%99awa-li%E2%80%99fyavi-amip%E2%80%94a-few-new-expressions/]source[/url])



msg=646637 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-09-02 20:04:55 | u=7704

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

radek.raszka

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27379.msg646511#msg646511 date=1472245204]
Eltur tìtxen si…

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27379.msg646498#msg646498 date=1472221704]
Oel tse'a ioangit ayäpusur.
'I see a self-washing animal.'
German: Ich sehe ein sich selbstwaschendes Tier.

The English translation, though, might be a little different: 'I see an animal (that is in the process of) washing itself.' That's a bit different from 'I see a self-washing animal.' The former sentence implies you're watching an animal that is in the process of washing itself; the latter typically means you're watching an animal that has the general characteristic of being able to wash itself, even though it may not be doing that at the present moment. Right now I think that both interpretations are OK in Na'vi, but I need to think about that some more. If you or anyone else has thoughts about this, I'd like to hear them!

My German isn't good enough to know whether or not the German version you've provided can have that meaning as well. [/quote]

I think it can.
But that’s the case with all active participles in German, same as in Na’vi tusarona palulukan can be rendered as “a hunting thanator” or “a thanator that hunts” (teraron a palulukan).
[/quote]
But translations means the same:
Tusarona palululan lu lehrrap == Palulukan a teraron lu lehrrap. Both these mean, that thanator, which (currently) hunts, is dangerous.

IMHO some verbs with <us> can have two meanings, some only one:
ioang apuslltxe - animal, which (currently) speaks X animal, which has ability to speak
nantang afrusìp - biting dog (dog, which currently bites something), but not dog, which has ability to bite (all all dogs are able to bite (okay, maybe except too old :)))
tutan ahusahaw - sleeping man, not man with ability to sleeps (anyone can sleep....)
nari atsuse'a - sighted/seeing(?) eye X eye which can see. Well, you can say "every eye can see", but it can be used like:

Nari atsuse'a tse'a nì'ul -> Seeing eye see more (if you know how to see, you can see more; normal eye see just common things).
Just my ideas.



msg=646642 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-09-02 20:54:33 | u=11067

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

NaVi_Quebec

@Blue Elf 'ä'! Irayo.



msg=646649 | topic=27379 | board=99 | time=2016-09-02 22:15:25 | u=16113

Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd

Wllìm

Very nice to have this confirmed. Irayo ma Tìtstewan! :)



msg=650313 | topic=27572 | board=99 | time=2017-02-25 11:00:40 | u=631

about fmetok and po/fo

Plumps83

Ma frapo,

Just a small confirmation. I was courious to know how tìfmetok/fmetok is used. So I asked K. Pawl about it and here is his response:

[quote=K. Pawl, 22 Feb 2017][font=book antiqua]Yes, tìfmetok can be a test in school. It can also be a more abstract test, as in "test of strength" or "a test of our resolve." And fmetok is vtr, 'test somebody.' The infixes are indeed 1, 2. (Fmetok has nothing to do with tok.) Here's a line from the original Avatar script, for the scene where Neytiri has brought Jake to Hometree for the first time, and Mo'at has just examined him:

    Neytiril fmayetok fìtsamsiyut.
    'Neytiri will test this "warrior."'
[/quote]

So, fmetok is vtr. and infix 1,2.


I was also wondering for a little story I was writing whether it is ok to refer to animals as po/fo. He said:

[quote=K. Pawl, 22 Feb 2017][font=book antiqua]Yes, in the same way we can do it in English. It really depends on the kind of animal and our relationship to it. I only call my cats "he" and "she," but to refer to an insect I'd probably say "it."
[/quote]



msg=650314 | topic=27572 | board=99 | time=2017-02-25 11:25:34 | u=10322

Re: about fmetok and po/fo

Titstewan

Irayo nìtxan! :D

([url=https://learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/]Vocab page[/url] updated)



msg=650319 | topic=27572 | board=99 | time=2017-02-25 17:32:13 | u=1975

Re: about fmetok and po/fo

Ean Tirea

*Mental note to add this and any other missing posts of this board to the wiki*

Thanks for the confirmation! I sort of wondered this too sometimes. Now I know. :D

via LG-K550 (Tapatalk)




msg=650323 | topic=27572 | board=99 | time=2017-02-25 20:45:28 | u=5737

Re: about fmetok and po/fo

eanunil

[quote author=Tìtstewan link=topic=27572.msg650314#msg650314 date=1488021934]
Irayo nìtxan! :D
[/quote]
:D



msg=651064 | topic=27613 | board=99 | time=2017-03-21 18:28:21 | u=631

Little confirmation on takuk

Plumps83

I had this question in [url=https://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/a-question-about-takuk/]this thread[/url], namely if takuk could be used for “strike” in the sense of “hit, beat, slap” because in German the meaning can be different.

I decided to ask K. Pawl about it and I got this response:


[quote=K. Pawl, 21 March 2017]Good question! I wasn't aware of the difference in German. I only knew "treffen" in the sense of "meet." I guess the underlying idea is that if you strike a target, you're connecting with it, or in effect meeting it. Very understandable.

In Na'vi, though, we CAN use takuk in the broader sense of "beat," "slap," or "strike," as you've indicated. The underlying idea is more like the English use of "strike," where you physically hit something with force. So you could say, for example, "Oeti takuk ra'ä!" (I hope you never have to say that!)
[/quote]

There you go, folks :D

I guess a small correction in the dictionary is in order ;)



msg=651066 | topic=27613 | board=99 | time=2017-03-21 18:33:29 | u=10322

Re: Little confirmation on takuk

Titstewan

Txantsan ulte irayo! :D



msg=651070 | topic=27613 | board=99 | time=2017-03-21 18:41:50 | u=16745

Re: Little confirmation on takuk

toliman

Txantsan
Interestig information about this word :)



msg=651073 | topic=27613 | board=99 | time=2017-03-21 18:46:56 | u=3048

Re: Little confirmation on takuk

Txepsiyu

Done!



msg=651081 | topic=27613 | board=99 | time=2017-03-21 19:27:11 | u=5737

Re: Little confirmation on takuk

eanunil

Neat, thanks! :D



msg=651085 | topic=27613 | board=99 | time=2017-03-22 00:56:47 | u=11067

Re: Little confirmation on takuk

NaVi_Quebec

We now know that our translation of tailslap is completely correct. ;)



msg=651098 | topic=27613 | board=99 | time=2017-03-22 11:03:41 | u=5737

Re: Little confirmation on takuk

eanunil

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27613.msg651085#msg651085 date=1490144207]
We now know that our translation of tailslap is completely correct. ;)
[/quote]
Hrh fì'u



msg=651099 | topic=27613 | board=99 | time=2017-03-22 13:16:49 | u=16745

Re: Little confirmation on takuk

toliman

[quote author=Eana Unil link=topic=27613.msg651098#msg651098 date=1490180621]
[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27613.msg651085#msg651085 date=1490144207]
We now know that our translation of tailslap is completely correct. ;)
[/quote]
Hrh fì'u
[/quote]
Yeah ;D



msg=651183 | topic=27613 | board=99 | time=2017-03-28 20:59:01 | u=4754

Re: Little confirmation on takuk

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=27613.msg651085#msg651085 date=1490144207]
We now know that our translation of tailslap is completely correct. ;)
[/quote]

Critically important confirmation ;)



msg=651748 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-03 20:55:16 | u=1003

Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

Skipper587

Kaltxì ma eylan.

[desc=I asked this question to Karyu Pawl recently and he has answered. I think it might be interesting to you all.]Polawm fìtìpawmit Karyu Pawlur nìsok ulte po 'oleyng. Fpìl futa tsawri ngeyä eltur tìtxen si.[/desc]

[quote=Mako]Kaltxì ma Karyu Pawl!

Sìlpey oe tsnì ngaru fpom livu.

[desc=We, that is my friends and I, have a question. Regarding the word "ketuwong", what's the origin of this word? We think that it may have come from "not us", "not person of us", or "not one person of us" but we don't know. As for us this is interesting. You don't have to reply like the Na'vi if you don't want to. Regarding your answer we will wait.]Lu tìpawm ayoeru alu oeyä eylan sì oe. Lì'uri alu ketuwong, pesim lu fìlì'ur? Fpìl ayoel futa zama'atsu a "ke awnga", "ke tute awngeyä" fu "ke 'awa tute ayoengeyä" slä ke omum. Ayoeri fì'u eltur tìtxen si. Ke zene 'iveyng nìNa'vi txo ke nivew nga. Tì'eyngìri ngeyä pasyey ayoe.[/desc][/quote]

[quote=Karyu Pawl]Kaltxì, ma Mako!

[desc=And regarding this, that the answer to your question comes so late I would have forgiveness. Yes I am busy for the sake of many things, but this work is pleasing to me.

I wish that I am having a good answer! Unfortunately, I don't have one.]Ulte furia ngeyä tìpawmìri fìtì'eyng hawngkrr fìtxan za'u ngane, oeru txoa livu. Srane, pxaya ufpi sulìn oe nìfkrr, slä fìtìkangkem zerawprrte' oene. :-)

Nìrangal lirvu oer tì'eyng asìltsan! Nìkeftxo ke längu oeru.[/desc]

(Forgive me for switching to English. <g>)

The fact is, I really don't remember where ketuwong comes from. I've searched my records, but the word probably dates back to 2005 or 2006, and I haven't been able to find my notes from that era. Your suggestions, although creative, don't really ring a bell. So for the time being at least, this will have to remain a mystery. Should I discover the source, I'll certainly let you know!

Sorry I don't have a more satisfying response for you.

In any event, thanks for your continued interest and support.

Kìyevame, ma 'eylan.

ta Pawl[/quote]

For etymology enthusiasts like me, this is kinda disappointing. However it does tell us that this word has existed for a long time, almost 4 years prior to the movie's release itself.

Plumps asked me to share, I hope that this is interesting!



msg=651749 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-03 21:45:07 | u=631

Re: Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

Plumps83

Irayo nìtxan, ma Mako.

I just dig every bit of raw Na’vi that we get from K. Pawl 8) ;D
I don’t recall ever seeing two topics in a sentence – so this is interesting to have (at least for me).

The etymology is quite interesting, especially if we see kewong as an adjective. By now we would form the noun probably as *kewongtu. And you are right. It’s amazing to think that the seeds for the language were planted over 10 years ago  :D



msg=651750 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-03 22:13:07 | u=2233

Re: Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

archaic

Maybe the unusual form is significant (in story).




Edit :- I feel some 'fic coming on.



msg=651751 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-04 01:26:50 | u=6445

Re: Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

Majime

I've wondered about this before.  I learned kewong before ketuwong and I always wondered why it was unique.  Thank you very much for spending the time to dig deeper into this  :D



msg=651753 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-04 06:07:22 | u=10322

Re: Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

Titstewan

Interesting.
I guess, ketuwong could origin from the root *wong + the negative element ke-. The -tu- element is just a personification marker. Maybe, in a very old step of Na'vi, it means something like "familiar, known" (*wong) + not (ke-) + person (-tu-) = not familar/known person aka alien. Not sure why -tu- is between ke- and -wong but probably, once in Na'vi they could have been used as a prefix.



msg=651757 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-04 12:27:39 | u=1975

Re: Etymology of the word &quot;Ketuwong&quot;

Ean Tirea

Because of how ancient this word is, it was likely thought of before -tu suffix was solidified. I always thought of it the way Tìtstewan just said, though, officially there is no clear etymology which means that both words are just roots and any derivation or etymology is to be considered coincidence. /shrug

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk




msg=651760 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-04 16:59:53 | u=7704

Re: Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

radek.raszka

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=27657.msg651749#msg651749 date=1493847907]
Irayo nìtxan, ma Mako.

I just dig every bit of raw Na’vi that we get from K. Pawl 8) ;D
I don’t recall ever seeing two topics in a sentence – so this is interesting to have (at least for me).

[/quote]
Well, I see here even more strange statement:
Srane, pxaya ufpi sulìn oe nìfkrr....-> Yes I am busy for the sake of many things...

AFAIR there is no short plural of 'u - > ayu must be used. And as Na'vi are very exact whenever possible, probably hem is better choice than ayu (Not things are done, but actions). So this reply raises more questions...



msg=651761 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-04 17:22:24 | u=1003

Re: Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

Skipper587

To be fair, Blue Elf, I was the first person to use that phrase. I sent it to him when communication went dark for several weeks between replies, as a gentle reminder. However, the fact that he replied using very similar phrasing...perhaps legal way to say it confirmed? ;)

Here's the email for context.

[quote=Mako][desc=I have understood, and I understand that for the sake of many things you have been busy. Thanks in advance.]Tslolam, ulte tslam futa pxaya ufpi sulìn nga. Irayo nìli.[/desc][/quote]



msg=651762 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-04 18:23:24 | u=7704

Re: Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

radek.raszka

[quote author=Mako link=topic=27657.msg651761#msg651761 date=1493918544]
To be fair, Blue Elf, I was the first person to use that phrase. I sent it to him when communication went dark for several weeks between replies, as a gentle reminder. However, the fact that he replied using very similar phrasing...perhaps legal way to say it confirmed? ;)
[/quote]
Not until Paul say it is allowed. IMO it isn't - see Horen leNa'vi (and this source is trustworthy enough), page 14, note at the end of page:

Exception: ’u thing does not take the short plural, always occurring as ayu.

I see it as oversight from Paul's sight, that he didn't corrected this mistake. You can ask for him comment, also some explanation about two topicals in one sentence would be interesting to read.



msg=651767 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-05 00:52:29 | u=4754

Re: Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27657.msg651762#msg651762 date=1493922204]
[quote author=Mako link=topic=27657.msg651761#msg651761 date=1493918544]
To be fair, Blue Elf, I was the first person to use that phrase. I sent it to him when communication went dark for several weeks between replies, as a gentle reminder. However, the fact that he replied using very similar phrasing...perhaps legal way to say it confirmed? ;)
[/quote]
Not until Paul say it is allowed. IMO it isn't - see Horen leNa'vi (and this source is trustworthy enough), page 14, note at the end of page:

Exception: ’u thing does not take the short plural, always occurring as ayu.

I see it as oversight from Paul's sight, that he didn't corrected this mistake. You can ask for him comment, also some explanation about two topicals in one sentence would be interesting to read.
[/quote]

There are no other examples of words beginning with /'/ that can't use the short plural? Its kind of a unique circumstance because the /'/ disappears. Perhaps, it is to prevent a one letter word. There are also a lot of circumstances where 'uo will work as a kind of a plural, especially where the quantity of 'u is not definitely known.



msg=651774 | topic=27657 | board=99 | time=2017-05-06 15:09:05 | u=1975

Re: Etymology of the word "Ketuwong"

Ean Tirea

[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=27657.msg651767#msg651767 date=1493945549]
[...]Perhaps, it is to prevent a one letter word.
[/quote]

That's what I figured.  The ONLY one letter word in Na'vi that exists or probably ever will exist is the particle "a".  I understand this to be a unique and special kind of word.

[quote]There are also a lot of circumstances where 'uo will work as a kind of a plural, especially where the quantity of 'u is not definitely known.
[/quote]

Which circumstances call for -o to be an innate plural form?  First I've heard of this.  I understand 'uo (something) to be a singular indefinite thing, as in, "a thing that is what it is, but I'm not certain what thing it is."  Does ayuo not exist then?  I always thought that was the way to say "some things".



msg=653848 | topic=27781 | board=99 | time=2017-09-29 18:46:44 | u=7704

compound verbs with sleyku

radek.raszka

In last LEP submission was used construction "txopu sleyku", known from examples published earlier at Naviteri.
Surprisingly, "txopu sleyku" is not listed in dictionary, what confused me and I asked our karyu Paul for explanation. And it came quickly, together with other confirmations I asked for. Here's our complete conversation:

[quote=Question from Blue Elf]
Dear Paul,
One question just popped in my mind, which has relation with one of proposals, which uses the same construction. It is based on two examples published on Naviteri:
Ngeyä aylì’ul akxapnga’ txopu ke sleyku oet kaw’it. -> Your threatening words don’t scare me one bit.  ([url=http://naviteri.org/2015/03/kap-si-ayunil-saylahe-threats-dreams-and-other-things/]source[/url])
’Uol ikranit txopu sleykolatsu, taluna po tsìk yawo. -> Something must have frightened the banshee, because it suddenly took to the air. ([url=http://naviteri.org/2012/01/mipa-zisit-ayliu-amip-new-words-for-the-new-year/]source[/url])

Based on these examples, txopu sleyku can be considered as transitive verb with meaning "scare/frighten sb", although this idea is not marked in any way (you didn’t mention it as verb). So it is safe consider it as separate dictionary entry? Or is it construction, which can allow us to (freely?) create another verbs in form <noun>(or possibly <adjective>) sleyku with rough meaning "produce <noun>(<adjective>) to sb."? I can think of *paynga‘ sleyku = "cause someone to get wet" or *tìprrte‘/nitram sleyku = "cause someone to feel joy/happy". What do you think about it? Could it be possible?
[/quote]
[quote=Answer from Paul]
Radovan,

Here's what I just wrote to Mark Miller about this:
[quote]
Well, I've gone back and forth on this. :-)  I was first going to say that I agree with you--there's no need to put txopu sleyku in the dictionary, since sleyku is already there, basically meaning "cause to become." (And yes, sleyku-verbs are vtr.). So txopu sleyku is easily understandable as "cause to become afraid" = "frighten." In other words, anyone with a grounding in Na'vi seeing txopu sleyku should be able to grasp its meaning. On the other hand, if someone wants to know the most common way to say "frighten," it might not be obvious. For that reason I'd say yeah, go ahead and put it in the dictionary, as vtr., right after txopu si.
[/quote]
As for your other examples with sleyku, I think they're fine. In other words, sleyku constructions are quite productive, and in general don't need to be listed in the dictionary. But as I said above, since "frighten" is so common and useful, I thought it wouldn't hurt to include it in the dictionary.
[/quote]
In short:

  • txopu sleyku is officially part of dictionary

  • we can create new verbs using noun/adjective + sleyku freely


Enjoy new rule!



msg=653850 | topic=27781 | board=99 | time=2017-09-29 21:46:08 | u=631

Re: compound verbs with sleyku

Plumps83

Thanks for the confirmation ;)



msg=653852 | topic=27781 | board=99 | time=2017-09-29 22:45:23 | u=11067

Re: compound verbs with sleyku

NaVi_Quebec

[quote]we can create new verbs using noun/adjective + sleyku freely[/quote]
yay!



msg=656150 | topic=27895 | board=99 | time=2018-01-23 19:29:54 | u=631

sì vs. ulte – ka ya vs. mì ya – and a note on sneyä

Plumps83

Kaltxì ma frapo,

maybe this is not news for you but I thought I’d let you know. For the German study group last week I wrote a short story for listening comprehension that contained the sentence (as I wrote it):

    *Sunu poru syulang sì mauti ulte fwa tswayon yaka.

with the intended meaning “he (i.e. a bird) likes flowers, fruits and to fly through the air.”

There was a discussion about how to say “through the air” and — more importantly — whether ulte was correct here. I had the chance to ask K. Pawl about it and he responded:

[quote][font=book antiqua]So let me answer your Na’vi questions:

First, I like ka ya better than mì ya. Maybe it’s a bias from English, I don’t know, but flying through the air sounds more appropriate than flying in the air. I guess ka ya is actually “across the air,” but that’s OK too.

As for your other question, I would use in that situation, not ulte.

The thing is it’s really a list of parallel items … flowers, fruit, flying through the air. That is, they’re all noun phrases (the first two of which are the simplest possible noun phrases: just a noun). So they should be tied together with . In English, for example, if you say “I like X,” whatever X is is a noun phrase.

Or think of it this way: You have three nouns in parallel: syulang, mauti, fì’u. The last one happens to have a modifying clause attached to it:

    fì’u [a tswayon ka ya]  = fwa tswayon yaka.

Does that make sense?[/quote]

================

sneyä vs. peyä

This is about the sentence from the Disney World of Pandora Pamphlet and the sentence

    Rä’ä fmivi kxu sivi ayioangur fu helkur feyä

where I thought it would be a case for sneyä because I interprated it as “his/her/their own” regardless of position in a sentence (and I’ve noticed a lot of learners doing this as well).

K. Pawl clarified:

[quote][font=book antiqua]I think feyä is better in that sentence than sneyä. I'd like to reserve sneyä for cases where a 3rd-person subject (sg. or pl.) interacts with its own possessive, if that makes sense. So this eliminates an ambiguity that can arise in English (and German too?): If I say, "Mark painted his house," I don't know if Mark painted someone else's house (maybe John's house), or if Mark painted his own house. But this ambiguity doesn't arise in Na'vi, since in the first case you use peyä and in the second sneyä. However, that's not what's going on in this sentence, I don't think, since it's an imperative sentence ("Don't harm . . . ") where the (unexpressed) subject is not 3rd person but 2nd (i.e., nga).
[/quote]



msg=656163 | topic=27895 | board=99 | time=2018-01-23 20:48:43 | u=1975

Re: sì vs. ulte – ka ya vs. mì ya – and a note on sneyä

Ean Tirea

makes sense. thanks for double-checking :D



msg=656189 | topic=27895 | board=99 | time=2018-01-24 20:46:53 | u=5737

Re: sì vs. ulte – ka ya vs. mì ya – and a note on sneyä

eanunil

Tsari irayo seiyi :)



msg=656203 | topic=27895 | board=99 | time=2018-01-26 00:03:00 | u=21

Re: sì vs. ulte – ka ya vs. mì ya – and a note on sneyä

wm.annis

Ma Plumps,

I'd like to use your sentence as the example in the Horen, if that's ok with you.



msg=656206 | topic=27895 | board=99 | time=2018-01-26 06:38:28 | u=631

Re: sì vs. ulte – ka ya vs. mì ya – and a note on sneyä

Plumps83

Sure. No problem at all. ;)



msg=656208 | topic=27895 | board=99 | time=2018-01-26 15:16:42 | u=21

Re: sì vs. ulte – ka ya vs. mì ya – and a note on sneyä

wm.annis

Irayo.



msg=656562 | topic=27916 | board=99 | time=2018-02-27 03:01:31 | u=21

location of the vocative

wm.annis

There was some discussion on Discord about the legal positions of the vocative in a larger clause (hard to find canon examples, actually). So I asked Paul about this (Tirea Aean providing some of the examples):

[quote]
When you have a polar question ending in srak, can it
be followed by a vocative, or would the vocative be
before the srak?

    Ngaru lu fpom srak, ma <name>?  (etc.)

My guess is that's just fine, given how vocatives are, but
some would appreciate an official declaration.

And then there's:

    1. Ma <name>, nga plltxe nìltsan.
    2. Nga, ma <name>, plltxe nìltsan.
    3. Nga plltxe, ma <name> nìltsan.

That is, can a vocative intrude anywhere, as a stylistic
thing?[/quote]

Paul's reply
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]
Answers are: yes, yes, yes, and yes. All those forms are fine. Vocatives SHOULD follow srak, but 1, 2, and 3 are fine.[/quote]



msg=656566 | topic=27916 | board=99 | time=2018-02-27 17:14:55 | u=1975

Re: location of the vocative

Ean Tirea

Nice. Irayo! :D



msg=656570 | topic=27916 | board=99 | time=2018-02-27 20:54:34 | u=631

Re: location of the vocative

Plumps83

Indeed. Nice confirmation :)



msg=656591 | topic=27916 | board=99 | time=2018-03-02 20:23:15 | u=7704

Re: location of the vocative

radek.raszka

Good to know this. First part (with srak) is clear and it works the same way as for example in Czech (vocative can go also first in sentence, IMO same as in English, but meaning can be a little different:
Are you well, John? - like How are you/How do you do?, general question to ask about John's state
John, are you well? - you look sick, don't you need any help?? That's probably why Paul moves vocative behind srak).

In second part is missing version with vocative at the end.
4. Nga plltxe nìltsan,  ma <name>.
Here all versions have the same meaning and seems that's just speaker's decision, which one to use. However option 3 looks very uncommon (TBH I'd say even incorrect) and hardly used in real life.
Also option 2 seems less common than 1+4.



msg=656705 | topic=27916 | board=99 | time=2018-03-14 04:38:29 | u=1975

Re: location of the vocative

Ean Tirea

[quote author=Blue Elf link=topic=27916.msg656591#msg656591 date=1520022195]
In second part is missing version with vocative at the end.
4. Nga plltxe nìltsan,  ma <name>.
[/quote]

I pretty much asked the stuff found in OP in the Discord. I excluded that #4 from my pondering, because it's obvious that this #4. is correct. We say stuff like this all the time, a regular sentence with vocative at the end. (although, with that logic, I have no idea why I left in #1 the most common form ever, but left out #4. meh. hrh)

[quote]Here all versions have the same meaning and seems that's just speaker's decision, which one to use. However option 3 looks very uncommon (TBH I'd say even incorrect) and hardly used in real life.
Also option 2 seems less common than 1+4.
[/quote]
Yes, those were my initial impressions too, but as we see confirmed here, none of these are incorrect.

I would have thought #3 is 1% acceptable, but lo and behold, it's apparently just as acceptable as the others. Honestly though, the chances of any of us using that weird word order is probably 1% anyway.
#1 and #4 are already by far the most commonly used forms.



msg=656711 | topic=27916 | board=99 | time=2018-03-14 11:41:00 | u=11067

Re: location of the vocative

NaVi_Quebec

The Teacher hath spoken.

Irayo ma wm.annis!



msg=657191 | topic=28139 | board=99 | time=2018-04-25 19:36:30 | u=1003

The Continuous Aspect vs. The Habitual Aspect

Skipper587

We recently had a discussion on this subject on the Learn Na’vi Discord and so I reached out to KP about it and here was his response:

[quote]Kaltxì sì fpomtokx ngaru,

Krrfpi moeyä, vìsyar oe pivlltxe nì'Ìnglìsì.

A discussion on the Learn Na'vi Discord community recently raised some big questions about the Imperfective Aspect, so I figured I'd see if you had the time to share some insight on the issue.

The question is how does one distinguish between habitual past action ("used to verb", habitual aspect) and continuous past action ("was verbing", continuous aspect) in Na'vi, given that our manner of expressing both is limited to <ì/arm>?

Suggested temporary solutions include using pxìm/nìtrrtrr + past imperfective for habitual action, or a yet discovered modal verb indicating the idea of "used to verb".

Ngeyä tì'eyngìri ayoe pereiey. 'Ivong Na'vi!

Ta Mako[/quote]

[quote]Hello again Mako,

As I mentioned before, this is an excellent question. It just goes to show how difficult it is to address all the ins and outs of language when you're creating one from scratch! :-) I hadn't thought about the habitual vs. continuous past question, which I'm surprised hasn't come up before. So this is a good time to address it.

(By the way, feel free to share this with the community.)

My approach was to first take a look at a few of the languages I'm familiar with (to various degrees), and for which I could hopefully find reliable data, handled the distinction. So I checked out French, German, Spanish, Malay/Indonesian, and Persian. To those in the community who speak these languages, please see if you agree with the data I found! And for those who speak other languages, see if your language falls into one of these categories or if it handles the distinction in a different way.

My main test sentences were:

1. The children were playing in the garden.
2. The children used to play in the garden.

GERMAN
From what I can tell, German treats both of these the same way.
Google Translate gives the same translation for both: Die Kinder spielten im Garten. Spielten is the imperfect. (GT is more reliable for the "big" languages--i.e. those with large numbers of speakers--than for smaller-population languages. Still, I'd be interested in whether German speakers agree with this judgment.)

PERSIAN
Same idea as German. The imperfect is used for both. .بچه ها در باغ بازی می کردند Bacche-haa dar baagh baazi mikardand. (The auxiliary verb mikardand is the imperfect form.)

So for some languages, there doesn't need to be a distinction in the morphology or syntax: Context will decide which interpretation is appropriate.

FRENCH
At times, apparently, French does the same as German, using the imperfect for both. So "I was working here" and "i used to work here" can simply be Je travaillais ici, where travaillais is the imperfect.

However, GT gave different translations for 1 and 2:

1:  Les enfants jouaient dans le jardin. (Jouaient is the imperfect.)
2:  Les enfants avaient l'habitude de jouer dans le jardin.

In 2, we have the expression avoir l'habitude de, 'to have the habit of doing something.' (Avaient is the imperfect form.)

So French makes the "habitual" idea of "used to" explicit.

SPANISH
I only know a little Spanish, so this was a big surprise to me. Spanish has a verb soler that means 'to be in the custom of, to have the habit of, etc.' So in Spanish we have:

1. Los niños jugaban en el jardín. (Jugaban is the imperfect.)
2. Los niños solían jugar en el jardín. (Solían is the imperfect of soler.)

So Spanish uses an auxiliary verb, something like Na'vi modals, for the habitual past.

MALAY/INDONESIAN
M/I doesn't have tenses. To distinguish 1 from 2, it adds the word biasa for 2, which means "usually" or "customarily":

1. Kanak-kanak bermain di kebun.
2. Kanak-kanak biasa bermain di kebun.

So there are three different strategies here:

(A) No overt difference. Context will decide on the interpretation.
(B) A special auxiliary or modal verb to indicate the habitual use.
(C) An adverbial expression to indicate the habitual use.

What should be the case in Na'vi?

I'd like to immediately rule out B, since it would be unusual to unearth a new modal verb at this last date.

(A) would work, of course. But since we already have a good adverbial expression for (C), namely nìtrrtrr, one of whose meanings is 'regularly,' I don't see why we can't use that to distinguish the habitual past from the imperfect:

1. Ayeveng uvan sarmi fìtseng. 'The children were playing here.'
2. Ayeveng uvan sarmi fìtseng nìtrrtrr. 'The children used to play here.'

I think that works. But if anyone has any comments or questions, please let me know!

ta P.[/quote]

TL;DR, context and nìtrrtrr are both acceptable methods for distinguishing between the past habitual aspect and the past continuous aspect, with nìtrrtrr preferred.



msg=657193 | topic=28139 | board=99 | time=2018-04-25 22:06:11 | u=631

Re: The Continuous Aspect vs. The Habitual Aspect

Plumps83

Ma Mako,

thanks for asking and getting this very detailed discussion back to us! :D Wonderful information.

Adding to the discussion… In German there is an alternative way to convey this (and I guess it seems ‘old fashioned’ by now) which is the verb „pflegen“

„Die Kinder pflegten im Garten zu spielen.“

So, a variation like French and Spanish do.



msg=657226 | topic=28139 | board=99 | time=2018-04-30 13:26:27 | u=7704

Re: The Continuous Aspect vs. The Habitual Aspect

radek.raszka

Thanks for asking and publishing the answer.
But those strange linguistic words are confusing - good you gave some explanation. Seems you guys at Discord are too good in language terminology ;D



msg=658145 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-06-23 10:40:17 | u=631

'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

Plumps83

Ma frapo,

I had the opportunity to ask K. Pawl about a few things that came up for discussion on the Discord server. So here it goes:


[quote=me]How do we say “Count from 3 to 8”? Would tiam ta pxey vay vol suffice? Somebody suggested ne as the adposition. Pamìrìk suggested, since most people start from ’aw to just say tiam vay/ne vol.
Tsari pefya nga fpìl?[/quote]

[quote=K. Pawl]I like vay here. Ne implies motion towards something, and is used mainly with verbs of motion like kä, za'u, tätxaw, etc. But this brings up another question. What if it's not counting from 3 (up)to 8, but rather from 8 down to 3? Countdowns are certainly common! A similar situation occurs if, say, the temperature falls from 20 degrees to 15 degrees. What is "to"? Vay doesn't seem appropriate, since it implies "up to." I'm wondering if we need a new adposition meaning "down to" as the opposite of vay. […]

BTW, I think Tiam vay vol is fine.[/quote]

So, it seems that there is another adposition needed for “down to”. Maybe something for a new LEP entry? :D Feel free to suggest things there.

================

Concerning

[quote=me] Could be used as the opposite of ìlä ‘according to (a person)’ in the sense of ‘contrary to (what somebody said)’ as in:

    Wä Feyral, muntxa ke soli Ralu sì Newey nìwan mesrram.
    “Contrary to what Peyral reported, Ralu and Newey were not secretly married the day before yesterday.”[/quote]

[quote=K. Pawl]I hadn't thought of that use of , but I like it. I don't see why it shouldn't be used in the way you've described. I also like tì’efuwä oeyä. It'd be used in sentences like, Tì’efuwä oeyä, fpìl Peyralìl futa ke zene ayoeng kivä. I.e., "I think we have to go, but Peyral doesn't."[/quote]

================

And finally, the genitive question:

[quote=me]The last one concerns multiple genitives: By now we only ever saw 2 genitives in sequence, e.g. in your example Pìlokä fìhapxìyä tìkan lu law. ‘The aim of this section of the blog is clear.’ The question arose whether there has to be a special sequence in order for it to make sense?

Mako said to this:

“I am willing to guarantee you that because the noun ending in -y/ä has to come next to the noun it is possessing […], the nouns have to be sequenced correctly in order for the sentence to make sense. Let me show it like this:
    (1) oeyä tsmukä tsko = oeyä } tsmukä { tsko or oeyä { tsmukä { tsko
    (2) tsmukä oeyä tsko = tsmukä } oeyä { tsko or tsmukä { oeyä { tsko
Only one of these options means “My sibling’s bow”. The attribution can only go one way once the direction has been decided”

Which I’m not so sure about. To me (2) logically also means “my sibling’s bow”. What do you think about that?[/quote]

[quote=K. Pawl]I agree with you. Both (1) and (2) seem fine to me, and I don't see how they could each be interpreted as other than "my sibling's bow."

However, Mako has pointed to an issue that deserves some scrutiny. Let me throw this out for discussion.

Here are the six possible arrangements of the words 'itanä, karyuä, and kelku:

1. kelku 'itanä karyuä
2. kelku karyuä 'itanä
3. 'itanä kelku karyuä
4. karyuä kelku 'itanä
5. 'itanä karyuä kelku
6. karyuä 'itanä kelku

And here are two possible meanings of these phrases:

A. the home of the son's teacher
B. the home of the teacher's son

Here are some questions to consider:

a. Are all six phrases grammatical and acceptable, or are some of them unacceptable?

b. Of the acceptable phrases (which may be all of them), which ones have the A meaning and which have the B meaning?

c. Are any of the acceptable phrases ambiguous--that is, allowing both the A and the B meaning?

d. If there is ambiguity in any of these cases, how much of a problem is that--or should there be a rule that in a potentially ambiguous case, one meaning is to be preferred over the other?

Please throw this out for discussion! I'll be interested in how people feel about these questions.[/quote]

So there it is. :) Please feel free to comment and discuss the above questions that K. Pawl laid out. I’m giving it some time before I ‘report back’ to him :P And I’m doing this here rather than on Discord just to have a better overview.



msg=658147 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-06-23 11:10:45 | u=17221

Re: 'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

aze

Please take my words with a grain of salt, as I am not the most proficient with Na'vi.

1. kelku 'itanä karyuä A (home of son's teacher).
2. kelku karyuä 'itanä B (home of teacher's son).
3. 'itanä kelku karyuä A (home of son's teacher), but possibly incorrect
4. karyuä kelku 'itanä B (home of teacher's son), but possibly incorrect.
5. 'itanä karyuä kelku A (home of son's teacher).
6. karyuä 'itanä kelku B (home of teacher's son).

I feel as though the main thing that determines this for me is which one comes first, since there aren't any other clarifiers. I see 3 and 4 as feeling incorrect, I'm not sure why. It may be an english thing, or it may be that having the subject (home) between the two qualifiers (son and teacher, which dictate which home it is) confuses me even more. At the same time, however, unambiguous sentences don't feel 'wrong' to me even if they're not in stereotypical 'english' order. Still, as a primarily English speaker I tend to personally prefer having it in a linear order, even though Na'vi doesn't need to follow that pattern, so that may be why I don't like them as much.

The most interesting thing is that to me, despite this being my reflex reaction (re: the meanings), I could easily see both meanings in each sentence; this is to say that they are all ambiguous to me, because there don't appear to be any real markers to signify what's going on. I feel that in the case of a potentially ambiguous sentence / case, the first thing encountered should be treated as the 'dominant' meaning; in essence, if you first speak about the teacher, you should assume it's about the teacher's son (and in this example, as a result, the teacher's son's home). This could easily solve any ambiguity issues that come up.



msg=658148 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-06-23 14:05:59 | u=17210

Re: 'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

Pamìrik

[quote=K. Pawl]And here are two possible meanings of these phrases:

A. the home of the son's teacher
B. the home of the teacher's son
[/quote]

I disagree and believe there is a third possible [mis]understanding: C. the teacher and son's home. Though we have seen examples of shared ownership listed with , (...mestxelit alu lora merel Tsyanä sì oeyä[url=http://naviteri.org/2014/09/stxeli-alor-the-text/][naviteri][/url]), I feel the nature of the genitive case lends itself to this possible [mis]understanding. I am not asserting that this is a correct translation or that it should be this way, but I will try to explain why I feel it is easy to interpret it as such.

This dives into misgiving I have with the genitive case in Na'vi, where it is one of few grammar structures that can lead to ambiguous constructions because it can't decide if it is or isn't an adjective. Most of the time, it does behave very much like an adjective- it can describe things with lu (fìtseng lu awngeyä), it goes next to a noun [phrase], but doesn't have the directional indicator of a that adjectives have, and doesn't take up an "adjective slot" (oeyä rima ikran akoak). Because of this weirdness, you can create ambiguous constructions like tsole'a karyul oeyä numeyut - my teacher saw student -OR- teacher saw my student. There exist workarounds for this, such as tsole'a karyul numeyut oeyä - obviously "my student" due to placement, so choosing a particular word order for the sentence to escape inherent ambiguity is par for the course for the genitive. While I think it is ungraceful, it's not totally unheard of (see apxa, the topical, clause attribution).

This brings me to KP's important questions:

[quote]a. Are all six phrases grammatical and acceptable, or are some of them unacceptable?[/quote]
This is what we are trying to figure out.

[quote]b. Of the acceptable phrases (which may be all of them), which ones have the A meaning and which have the B meaning?[/quote]

For each, I will mark how I feel.

A. the home of the son's teacher (son's teacher's home)
B. the home of the teacher's son (teacher's son's home)
C. the home of the teacher and son (misunderstanding), or, "this is a potential problem"


1. kelku 'itanä karyuä  B
2. kelku karyuä 'itanä  A
3. 'itanä kelku karyuä  C
4. karyuä kelku 'itanä  C
5. 'itanä karyuä kelku  A
6. karyuä 'itanä kelku  B

[quote]c. Are any of the acceptable phrases ambiguous--that is, allowing both the A and the B meaning?[/quote]
As stated above, 3 and 4 are not immediately clear, and lend themselves to confusion. Because of the genitive case's ability to be on either side of its noun phrase, AND it's lack of need to be next to the noun itself (oeyä rima ikran akoak), there are two meanings:

3. ( ('itanä kelku) karyuä )
3. ( 'itanä ( kelku karyuä ) )

1, 2, 5, and 6 get around this by only providing one valid interpretation:

1.  ( (kelku 'itanä ) karyuä )
5. ('itanä ( karyuä kelku ) )

This is internally consistent with the logic of clause attribution nesting, another grammar problem solved by mandating a specific order/clustering of clauses. Languages don't always have to be internally logical and consistent, but in nearly everything else Na'vi is, and if it was up to me I would preserve this.

[quote]d. If there is ambiguity in any of these cases, how much of a problem is that--or should there be a rule that in a potentially ambiguous case, one meaning is to be preferred over the other?[/quote]

There is ambiguity, and it is an issue. I believe that the rule to solve this gracefully is to chain modals to always read in their relationship order from the noun, outward. This is actually how I assumed it worked up until this point, and was surprised to find it wasn't already a rule.

In a world where Ayä noun Byä constructions are legal, I would always side on the relationship being as follows:

3. ( ('itanä kelku) karyuä ) [B]B. the home of the teacher's son (teacher's son's home)

This mirrors how the topical case can sometimes be employed for inalienable possession (and must be at the beginning of a sentence). I feel the Na'vi would be more used to hearing a "primary possessor" first. Perhaps not the strongest argument, but it's the only case I could come up with for either of them given the rest of what I know about Na'vi grammar.

Thanks for sharing! I eagerly await a decision, one way or another, on this issue.



msg=658149 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-06-23 15:38:04 | u=1003

Re: 'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

Skipper587

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=28172.msg658145#msg658145 date=1529750417]
And finally, the genitive question:

[quote=me]The last one concerns multiple genitives: By now we only ever saw 2 genitives in sequence, e.g. in your example Pìlokä fìhapxìyä tìkan lu law. ‘The aim of this section of the blog is clear.’ The question arose whether there has to be a special sequence in order for it to make sense?

Mako said to this:

“I am willing to guarantee you that because the noun ending in -y/ä has to come next to the noun it is possessing […], the nouns have to be sequenced correctly in order for the sentence to make sense. Let me show it like this:
    (1) oeyä tsmukä tsko = oeyä } tsmukä { tsko or oeyä { tsmukä { tsko
    (2) tsmukä oeyä tsko = tsmukä } oeyä { tsko or tsmukä { oeyä { tsko
Only one of these options means “My sibling’s bow”. The attribution can only go one way once the direction has been decided”

Which I’m not so sure about. To me (2) logically also means “my sibling’s bow”. What do you think about that?[/quote]

[quote=K. Pawl]I agree with you. Both (1) and (2) seem fine to me, and I don't see how they could each be interpreted as other than "my sibling's bow."

However, Mako has pointed to an issue that deserves some scrutiny. Let me throw this out for discussion.

Here are the six possible arrangements of the words 'itanä, karyuä, and kelku:

1. kelku 'itanä karyuä
2. kelku karyuä 'itanä
3. 'itanä kelku karyuä
4. karyuä kelku 'itanä
5. 'itanä karyuä kelku
6. karyuä 'itanä kelku

And here are two possible meanings of these phrases:

A. the home of the son's teacher
B. the home of the teacher's son

Here are some questions to consider:

a. Are all six phrases grammatical and acceptable, or are some of them unacceptable?

b. Of the acceptable phrases (which may be all of them), which ones have the A meaning and which have the B meaning?

c. Are any of the acceptable phrases ambiguous--that is, allowing both the A and the B meaning?

d. If there is ambiguity in any of these cases, how much of a problem is that--or should there be a rule that in a potentially ambiguous case, one meaning is to be preferred over the other?

Please throw this out for discussion! I'll be interested in how people feel about these questions.[/quote]

So there it is. :) Please feel free to comment and discuss the above questions that K. Pawl laid out. I’m giving it some time before I ‘report back’ to him :P And I’m doing this here rather than on Discord just to have a better overview.
[/quote]

[quote author=Pamìrìk link=topic=28172.msg658148#msg658148 date=1529762759]
I disagree and believe there is a third possible [mis]understanding: C. the teacher and son's home.[/quote]

I am in agreement with Pam here. I think shared ownership could likewise be indicated by having a genitive noun on either side of the normal noun, and quite like that as an interpretation. So that leaves 4 remaining sentences to scrutinize:

1. kelku 'itanä karyuä - the teacher's son's home
2. kelku karyuä 'itanä - the son's teacher's home
5. 'itanä karyuä kelku - the son's teacher's home
6. karyuä 'itanä kelku - the teacher's son's home

This is all well and good, and we can see that a certain sequence order does inherently exist in Na'vi in the case of common noun x common noun. However, I think it's worth pointing out that with pronoun genitive usage, there are certain constructions that don't have a legitimate grammatical meaning if following this model. Explaining this from the example I posed:

1. oeyä tsmukä tsko - my sibling's bow
2. tsmukä oeyä tsko - sibling's my bow
3. oeyä tsko tsmukä - my sibling and my bow
4. tsmukä tsko oeyä - my sibling and my bow
5. tsko oeyä tsmukä - sibling's my bow
6. tsko tsmukä oeyä - my sibling's bow

Pronouns can't be possessed by common nouns and make sense, so pronouns appear to be an exception to the rule if this sentence always means "my sibling's bow" (or mine and my sibling's bow, as Pam suggests). You can replace oeyä with ngeyä or peyä and certain orders following the same conventions as the 'itanä karyuä kelku example don't make sense.

So in summary, my two cents on this is that if 1, 2, 5, and 6 are legal constructions, then in cases of pronoun possession, the pronoun will always take priority over the common noun, regardless of structure.

1. oeyä tsmukä tsko - my sibling's bow
2. tsmukä oeyä tsko - my sibling's bow
5. tsko oeyä tsmukä - my sibling's bow
6. tsko tsmukä oeyä - my sibling's bow

Irayo ma Plumps, mesìpawm alahe txantsan lamu.



msg=658155 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-06-24 02:30:38 | u=7600

Re: 'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

Saralyn te Späyu

[quote author=Mako link=topic=28172.msg658149#msg658149 date=1529768284]
[quote author=Pamìrìk link=topic=28172.msg658148#msg658148 date=1529762759]
I disagree and believe there is a third possible [mis]understanding: C. the teacher and son's home.[/quote]

I am in agreement with Pam here. I think shared ownership could likewise be indicated by having a genitive noun on either side of the normal noun, and quite like that as an interpretation. So that leaves 4 remaining sentences to scrutinize:

1. kelku 'itanä karyuä - the teacher's son's home
2. kelku karyuä 'itanä - the son's teacher's home
5. 'itanä karyuä kelku - the son's teacher's home
6. karyuä 'itanä kelku - the teacher's son's home

This is all well and good, and we can see that a certain sequence order does inherently exist in Na'vi in the case of common noun x common noun. However, I think it's worth pointing out that with pronoun genitive usage, there are certain constructions that don't have a legitimate grammatical meaning if following this model. Explaining this from the example I posed:

1. oeyä tsmukä tsko - my sibling's bow
2. tsmukä oeyä tsko - sibling's my bow
3. oeyä tsko tsmukä - my sibling and my bow
4. tsmukä tsko oeyä - my sibling and my bow
5. tsko oeyä tsmukä - sibling's my bow
6. tsko tsmukä oeyä - my sibling's bow

Pronouns can't be possessed by common nouns and make sense, so pronouns appear to be an exception to the rule if this sentence always means "my sibling's bow" (or mine and my sibling's bow, as Pam suggests). You can replace oeyä with ngeyä or peyä and certain orders following the same conventions as the 'itanä karyuä kelku example don't make sense.

So in summary, my two cents on this is that if 1, 2, 5, and 6 are legal constructions, then in cases of pronoun possession, the pronoun will always take priority over the common noun, regardless of structure.

1. oeyä tsmukä tsko - my sibling's bow
2. tsmukä oeyä tsko - my sibling's bow
5. tsko oeyä tsmukä - my sibling's bow
6. tsko tsmukä oeyä - my sibling's bow

Irayo ma Plumps, mesìpawm alahe txantsan lamu.
[/quote]

Okay, I'm terribly out of practice, and just now getting back to Na'vi, but for what it's worth... my vote is for:

1. kelku 'itanä karyuä - the teacher's son's home - the home of the son of the teacher
2. kelku karyuä 'itanä - the son's teacher's home - the home of the teacher of the son
5. 'itanä karyuä kelku - the son's teacher's home - the home of the teacher of the son
6. karyuä 'itanä kelku - the teacher's son's home - the home of the son of the teacher

because I've always though of an -ä or -yä as putting an "of the" in between the word it's attached to and the adjacent one it modifies.  So:

3. 'itanä kelku karyuä - the son and teacher's home - the home of the teacher and also of the son
4. karyuä kelku 'itanä - the teacher and son's home - the home of the son and also of the teacher

but I do admit that this interpretation is... a creative one on Pamìrìk's part :) , and might not be intuitive for all speakers.


As for the discussion of "my sibling's bow", I have to agree with Mako, for the reasons he put into words much better than I could.

Edit: oh drat - reasons, not reason's, for heaven's sake!



msg=658159 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-06-24 15:24:58 | u=1003

Re: 'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

Skipper587

[quote author=Alyara Arati link=topic=28172.msg658155#msg658155 date=1529807438]

Okay, I'm terribly out of practice, and just now getting back to Na'vi, but for what it's worth... my vote is for:

1. kelku 'itanä karyuä - the teacher's son's home - the home of the son of the teacher
2. kelku karyuä 'itanä - the son's teacher's home - the home of the teacher of the son
5. 'itanä karyuä kelku - the son's teacher's home - the home of the teacher of the son
6. karyuä 'itanä kelku - the teacher's son's home - the home of the son of the teacher

because I've always though of an -ä or -yä as putting an "of the" in between the word it's attached to and the adjacent one it modifies.  So:

3. 'itanä kelku karyuä - the son and teacher's home - the home of the teacher and also of the son
4. karyuä kelku 'itanä - the teacher and son's home - the home of the son and also of the teacher

but I do admit that this interpretation is... a creative one on Pamìrìk's part :) , and might not be intuitive for all speakers.

As for the discussion of "my sibling's bow", I have to agree with Mako, for the reason's he put into words much better than I could.
[/quote]

Tolätxaw nìprrte’ ma Alyara! Ngat ke tsole’a txankrr!



msg=658169 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-06-26 00:20:25 | u=7600

Re: 'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

Saralyn te Späyu

:D Furia tìmätxaw oe, 'erefu nitram.  Irayo! :D
(I may even volunteer for the LEP again if I'm not too rusty.)



msg=658568 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-07-22 13:40:53 | u=631

Re: 'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

Plumps83

Right, long overdue but here are my 2¢

Basically, we all seem to be in agreement about the order of 1, 2, 5, and 6. And I derived this from examples of KP and treated it internally as a ‘rule’ same as Pamìrìk did, i.e. the one I gave:

    Pìlokä fìhapxìyä tìkan lu law.

is rendered as “The aim of this section of the blog (is clear.)” (or “the aim of this blog’s section”) and not *“the aim of the blog of this section”.

So, I start with the head noun and go outwards from there, whether to the left or to the right doesn’t matter so that I arrive at.

    pìlokä < fìhapxìyä < tìkan

or

    tìkan > fìhapxìyä > pìlokä

So for me there is a sequential order. And inhernently, we all seem to do that (judging by the same result we all arrive at concerning 1, 2, 5 and 6).

I hadn’t thought of Pamìrìk’s solution with the A-ä NOUN B-ä but it is an unusual and maybe foreign concept to wrap our heads around but nonetheless, elegent in my opinion. It doesn’t always have to be this construct, as KP has shown us other constructs are possible but it would be nice if this opened the possibility. In this instance the genitive would act more like an attributive adjective.

If that were to pass then we need a rule on possessive pronoun use as Mako pointed out.

So yeah, probably nothing new here, just agreement :D but that also goes to show that a community has tendencies to use the language.



msg=658572 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-07-22 14:55:05 | u=1153

Re: 'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

Mech

I am the least experienced in the gang and i didnt have time to assess all the interesting ideas, but I would like to say mine, according to my generic linguistic instict :)

I guess that the matter of sequential  genitive should have some freedom but in a specific order. To say "the noun  of A of B" we can say it as either

noun Ayä Byä
OR
Byä Ayä noun

The order
Ayä noun Byä (and its reverse)
is legal but ambiguous and uncommon, except if there is a predefined context. For example if I ask "was the party held at the home of the teacher's daughter?" Then you can reply "No, it was held at the home of the teacher's son" or "No, it was held at the garage of teacher's daughter" using the Ayä noun Byä order, because the order of ownership is already understood.



msg=658962 | topic=28172 | board=99 | time=2018-08-18 07:00:06 | u=631

Re: 'count to', wä and sequential genitive (discussion)

Plumps83

FYI, I’ve sent our little discussion to K. Pawl. We’ll have to see what he’ll make of it.



msg=659550 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2018-09-20 21:40:02 | u=5737

new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

eanunil

In the name of the whole current (mainly beginners') Lerngruppe some of the members composed a message (because it was his birthday), including .mp3 of the text and I sent it to KP (my first mail to him, weeh!). Today he answered, giving us not only very kind words as usual, but also new words:

[quote]Ma eylan ayawne alu Eana Unil alu Krrsì sì 'eveng te atan alu Andi sì Tomke sì
Thyra sì Malte sì Leo sì Sophie sì Teyvit sì Neyri alu Micha sì Tekre alu
Merve sì Wllìm sì Plumps alu Stefan,

Kaltxì, ma smuk! Oel ayngati kameie nìwotx. Ayngeyä lora fì’upxare leftxozä [lì’u amip: = ‘celebratory’] oeru teya soli nìngay. Ulte fwa tsun oe stivawm aymokrit awngeyä tengkrr nìNa’vi perlltxe nìlor fìtxan leiu stxeli akosman frato.

Furia ’eyng oe ayngaru hawngkrr, oeru txoa livu. Tsyan sì oe serop fte fivrrfen oeyä tsmukanti a mì Nìyu Yorkì kelku si sì moeyä eylanti a mì Foston (Poston = Boston). Tìsop leiu txantsan.

Srane, rutxe ayrelit a ta Kelnì (Köln) fpive’! New oe ayngati nìwotx tsive’a nìmun!

Ulte nìmun, irayo nìtxan, ma smuk. Eywa ayngahu nìwotx frakrr.

ta Pawl[/quote]

TL;DR (how dare you not read KP's messages hrh!):

leftxozä = celebratory

Kelnì = Cologne / Köln
Poston = Boston
Nìyu Yorkì = New York



msg=659553 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2018-09-20 21:43:46 | u=631

Re: new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

Plumps83

Uuuuh ;D

I love to read longer texts in Na’vi from K. Pawl. Thank you so much for sharing that with us!

I’m more and more convinced that ’eyng is intransitive :-\\



msg=659554 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2018-09-20 21:49:01 | u=10322

Re: new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

Titstewan

Txantsan ulte irayo nìtxan! :D



msg=659555 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2018-09-20 21:54:41 | u=16745

Re: new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

toliman

Eltur tìtxen si :) Irayo nìteng :)



msg=664712 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2019-05-17 00:50:26 | u=17569

Re: new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

Kyttin13

I know there's words for chocolate (tsoklìt) and beer (pxir), does anyone know if they've come up with a word for *pizza*??? They have words for the *other* two forms of ambrosia!!!



msg=664716 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2019-05-17 08:02:38 | u=985

Re: new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

Nyx

Txantsan ma Eana Unil!  :D

But, what do tsyan and fivrrfen mean? I would assume fivrrfen is meet, but I'm rusty and I couldn't find them in the Navi-English dictionary.

[quote author=Kyttin13 link=topic=28238.msg664712#msg664712 date=1558054226]
I know there's words for chocolate (tsoklìt) and beer (pxir), does anyone know if they've come up with a word for *pizza*??? They have words for the *other* two forms of ambrosia!!!
[/quote]
I don't think there's an official word for it, but considering it would be a loan from the English speaking visitors to Pandora, I would guess something along the lines of *pitsa (Imagine the fights we'd have over proper toppings over there, when something common like pineapple is controversial, hrh)



msg=664717 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2019-05-17 08:29:20 | u=17517

Re: new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

Matalìna

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=28238.msg664716#msg664716 date=1558080158]
Txantsan ma Eana Unil!  :D

But, what do tsyan and fivrrfen mean? I would assume fivrrfen is meet, but I'm rusty and I couldn't find them in the Navi-English dictionary.

[quote author=Kyttin13 link=topic=28238.msg664712#msg664712 date=1558054226]
I know there's words for chocolate (tsoklìt) and beer (pxir), does anyone know if they've come up with a word for *pizza*??? They have words for the *other* two forms of ambrosia!!!
[/quote]
I don't think there's an official word for it, but considering it would be a loan from the English speaking visitors to Pandora, I would guess something along the lines of *pitsa (Imagine the fights we'd have over proper toppings over there, when something common like pineapple is controversial, hrh)
[/quote] Chocolate - Tsoklìt .....this sounds great and awesome! :D
Pizza - Pìtsa (more Na'vi, hrh) ;)  ::)



msg=664760 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2019-05-17 20:24:12 | u=631

Re: new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

Plumps83

[quote author=Nyx link=topic=28238.msg664716#msg664716 date=1558080158]
But, what do tsyan and fivrrfen mean? I would assume fivrrfen is meet, but I'm rusty and I couldn't find them in the Navi-English dictionary.[/quote]

Tsyan = John, Paul’s husband

fivrrfen = f‹iv›rrfen < frrfen = visit



msg=664761 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2019-05-17 20:28:00 | u=17517

Re: new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

Matalìna

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=28238.msg664760#msg664760 date=1558124652]
[quote author=Nyx link=topic=28238.msg664716#msg664716 date=1558080158]
But, what do tsyan and fivrrfen mean? I would assume fivrrfen is meet, but I'm rusty and I couldn't find them in the Navi-English dictionary.[/quote]

Tsyan = John, Paul’s husband

fivrrfen = f‹iv›rrfen < frrfen = visit

[/quote]John, Paul's husband?! ??? :o

Kaltxì ma Plumps! Oel ngati kameie! Ngaru lu fpom srak?



msg=664882 | topic=28238 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 09:15:49 | u=985

Re: new words; leftxozä (celebratory) + Poston (Boston) + Kelnì (Köln / Cologne)

Nyx

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=28238.msg664760#msg664760 date=1558124652]
[quote author=Nyx link=topic=28238.msg664716#msg664716 date=1558080158]
But, what do tsyan and fivrrfen mean? I would assume fivrrfen is meet, but I'm rusty and I couldn't find them in the Navi-English dictionary.[/quote]

Tsyan = John, Paul’s husband

fivrrfen = f‹iv›rrfen < frrfen = visit

[/quote]

Man, I'm really rusty if I didn't catch that it was f‹iv›rrfen  :facepalm:, thank you!



msg=664873 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 00:45:26 | u=17382

Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Txawey

Hi all!

As some of you may know, I was recently in Mo'ara for a period on vacation with my family.  While there, I downloaded the Play Disney app on a whim and found a game for Mo'ara while waiting in line.  Said game had a decently large Pandorapedia, so I figured why not take a look at it!  After I was finished, I found several new entries for things we didn't have before.  Since they were all on my phone, I took screenshots (over 200!) and figured why not type them up into a document, so here they are!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r5qGIhdFNUUamJFs5Bd6_insSiMBt9o8dEqbZr8xTlA/edit?usp=sharing

The album with the screenshots is linked within the document itself on the first page as well as here: [url=https://photos.app.goo.gl/coRYv1PwTMXG1jxW8]https://photos.app.goo.gl/coRYv1PwTMXG1jxW8[/url]

For the sake of convenience, I will also list the newly-found words here:

Flora:
             
fyìpmaut squid fruit tree, octocrus folliculus
koaktutra goblin thistle, cobalus carduus
lanutral dandetiger, candea inflata
paysyul water lily, inrigo lilliam
rumaut cannonball fruit tree, ecdurus putamen pomus
tsawksyul sun lily, stella lilliam
tumpasuk celia fruit tree, pampinus bacca acinum


Fauna:
           
fyuatxanemonoid
lortsyalshimmyfly
nalutsanalutsa
skukasagittaria
srakatdinicthoid
tsikireef tick


Name:
Kapsavan
the river in the Valley of Mo'ara along which the Shaman of Songs resides, the Na'vi River Journey river


New Noun:
 
kuruthe organ the Na'vi use to establish a bond (tsaheylu) with Pandoran wildlife


This last one was hinted at in an issue of Tsu'tey's Path and was confirmed by the author of said comic.  To my understanding, it is expected to be clarified further in a future Na'viteri post, but for the sake of completeness, I'll include it here.

Enjoy!
Txawey



msg=664874 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 04:46:50 | u=17517

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Matalìna

Tewti! :D
Irayo nìtxan ma Txawey! Eltxur tìtxen sivi nìtxan!



msg=664878 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 06:05:25 | u=2233

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

archaic

[quote author=Txawey link=topic=28389.msg664873#msg664873 date=1558485926]
New Noun:
 
kuruthe organ the Na'vi use to establish a bond (tsaheylu) with Pandoran wildlife


This last one was hinted at in an issue of Tsu'tey's Path and was confirmed by the author of said comic.  To my understanding, it is expected to be clarified further in a future Na'viteri post, but for the sake of completeness, I'll include it here.
[/quote]I am curious what the difference is between kuru and tswin.



msg=664879 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 06:25:35 | u=17517

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Matalìna

[quote author=archaic link=topic=28389.msg664878#msg664878 date=1558505125]
[quote author=Txawey link=topic=28389.msg664873#msg664873 date=1558485926]
New Noun:
 
kuruthe organ the Na'vi use to establish a bond (tsaheylu) with Pandoran wildlife


This last one was hinted at in an issue of Tsu'tey's Path and was confirmed by the author of said comic.  To my understanding, it is expected to be clarified further in a future Na'viteri post, but for the sake of completeness, I'll include it here.
[/quote]I am curious what the difference is between kuru and tswin.
[/quote]Same!
What's the difference between kuru and tswin? <--- rhis is very interesting! :D



msg=664884 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 11:55:43 | u=16745

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

toliman

Txantsan, eltur tìtxen si.

[quote author=archaic link=topic=28389.msg664878#msg664878 date=1558505125]
I am curious what the difference is between kuru and tswin.
[/quote]
Hmm... that is question...



msg=664899 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 16:17:56 | u=17382

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Txawey

Regarding the difference between the kuru and queue, we honestly don't know yet  :-\\  We're hoping that Karyu Pawl will clarify in his next post.  My current guess is that the queue refers to the whole ensemble of braid/sheath as well as the neural whip and kuru refers to the organ itself, i.e. the neural tendrils and such.  It is also referred to in the log on the Ilu, but that doesn't shed too much light on the subject to be honest.

In short, we can only guess right now, so we'll have to wait for Karyu Pawl to shed some light on the subject. :)



msg=664900 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 16:19:22 | u=17517

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Matalìna

[quote author=Txawey link=topic=28389.msg664899#msg664899 date=1558541876]
Regarding the difference between the kuru and queue, we honestly don't know yet  :-\\  We're hoping that Karyu Pawl will clarify in his next post.  My current guess is that the queue refers to the whole ensemble of braid/sheath as well as the neural whip and kuru refers to the organ itself, i.e. the neural tendrils and such.  It is also referred to in the log on the Ilu, but that doesn't shed too much light on the subject to be honest.

In short, we can only guess right now, so we'll have to wait for Karyu Pawl to shed some light on the subject. :)
[/quote] Tam!
Anywhere, irayo nìtxan! :D



msg=664904 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 17:32:07 | u=16745

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

toliman

[quote author=Txawey link=topic=28389.msg664899#msg664899 date=1558541876]
My current guess is that the queue refers to the whole ensemble of braid/sheath as well as the neural whip and kuru refers to the organ itself, i.e. the neural tendrils and such.
[/quote]
It sound like as good explanation! I had similar idea too but I was not sure at all.



msg=664907 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 17:41:19 | u=17046

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Lynxcat

This is awesome new information! Txantsan! Irayo!  :)



msg=664909 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-22 18:10:42 | u=17517

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Matalìna

[quote author=Lynxcat link=topic=28389.msg664907#msg664907 date=1558546879]
This is awesome new information! Txantsan! Irayo!  :)
[/quote] Srane! It is awesome and great!
Anywhere, how are you?



msg=664988 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-25 09:52:29 | u=631

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Plumps83

This is an amazing find, ma Txawey.

Thanks for sharing.



msg=664991 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-25 14:33:22 | u=17046

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Lynxcat

[quote author=Eìrä link=topic=28389.msg664909#msg664909 date=1558548642]
[quote author=Lynxcat link=topic=28389.msg664907#msg664907 date=1558546879]
This is awesome new information! Txantsan! Irayo!  :)
[/quote] Srane! It is awesome and great!
Anywhere, how are you?
[/quote]

Oer lu fpom! Ngaru tut?  :)



msg=664993 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-25 15:31:03 | u=17517

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Matalìna

[quote author=Lynxcat link=topic=28389.msg664991#msg664991 date=1558794802]
[quote author=Eìrä link=topic=28389.msg664909#msg664909 date=1558548642]
[quote author=Lynxcat link=topic=28389.msg664907#msg664907 date=1558546879]
This is awesome new information! Txantsan! Irayo!  :)
[/quote] Srane! It is awesome and great!
Anywhere, how are you?
[/quote]

Oer lu fpom! Ngaru tut?  :)
[/quote]Oeru lu fpom nìteng!



msg=664995 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-25 15:54:38 | u=17046

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Lynxcat

[quote author=Eìrä link=topic=28389.msg664993#msg664993 date=1558798263]
[quote author=Lynxcat link=topic=28389.msg664991#msg664991 date=1558794802]
[quote author=Eìrä link=topic=28389.msg664909#msg664909 date=1558548642]
[quote author=Lynxcat link=topic=28389.msg664907#msg664907 date=1558546879]
This is awesome new information! Txantsan! Irayo!  :)
[/quote] Srane! It is awesome and great!
Anywhere, how are you?
[/quote]

Oer lu fpom! Ngaru tut?  :)
[/quote]Oeru lu fpom nìteng!
[/quote]

Yayyy! Txantsan ma eylan!  :)



msg=664996 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-05-25 16:02:25 | u=17382

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Txawey

This isn't the post to have a conversation like that on: can you please take it to one of the chat posts or the shoutbox?



msg=665203 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-06-04 05:29:30 | u=17517

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Matalìna

Sorry ma Txawey if i did a mistake! :-[



msg=665310 | topic=28389 | board=99 | time=2019-06-10 18:12:19 | u=631

Re: Expansion to Flora, Fauna, and Places from the Valley of Mo'ara

Plumps83

Ma Txawey,

I’m in the process of incorporating these new terms in the dictionaries (dict-navi.com & Annotated).

I just have to again acknowledge and praise the work you put into that!

In the entry of nalutsa there is mention of a creature named akula … could you find anything else about that? Because it does not appear anywhere else, as far as I can see.



msg=665859 | topic=28437 | board=99 | time=2019-07-24 01:15:11 | u=10287

Negation and Modal Verbs

Kiyari

[desc=krra pamrel si oe pukur oeyä, run oel furia fìlì'ukìng eyawr lu ke 'efu am'ake a 'uot a new pivlltxe oe. new oe sivar lì'uvit alu ke hu kemlì'u amuve lì'ukìngmì tup ke sar tsalì'uvit 'awvea pumhu. furia ftxey tsun fko tsakem sivi fuke newomum oe, ha fwew oel teyngta tsun fìlì'ukìng eyawr livu srak slä ke run ke'ut, ha 'upxaret fpole'. fìtì'eyngìl tsatìpawmti 'eyng.]While working on my book project, I found something I wanted to say that I was not sure was okay. I went to negate a verb in a sentence that had a modal verb, instead of negating the modal verb and leaving the other without negation. Curious about whether that was a valid construction I looked but did not find an answer in support or denial of it anywhere in our resources, so an email was sent. This was the response back. :)[/desc]

[quote]
Kaltxì ma Pawl!

[...]

We have never seen anything from you like “pefya tsun nga ke stivawm aylì’uti oeyä?”, but I wonder, is it possible?
Similarly, as a parallel to zenke, does tsunke exist?
More generally, in a modal construction, is it possible to negate the second verb, or are we only allowed to negate the modal verb?

I ask this because I suspect that there might be a difference between ke tsun yivom and tsun ke yivom:  Not able to eat [lack of food, physical inability?] vs. able to not eat [willpowered fasting during a feast?]

Irayo nìli, I hope all is well!
[...][/quote]

[quote=Pawl]
[...]
When you have a modal and a negative together, the question is, which one has the wider scope? Take “must,” for example. Using the verb “go,” there are two possibilities:

1.    NEG  [MUST go]  To use clumsy English, this means we’re negating the idea of obligatory going. So MUST falls within the scope of NEG. In other words, you don’t have to go, it’s not necessary to go, it’s not obligatory to go.

In Na’vi, of course, that’s ke zene kivä.

2.    MUST  [NEG go]  Here we’re saying the idea of not going is obligatory. So NEG falls within the scope of MUST. In other words, it’s obligatory that you not go: you must not go.

In Na’vi, this was originally *zene ke kivä, but since this construction occurs so frequently (people are always saying, “You must not do this”!), zene and the immediately following ke have coalesced over time into zenke.

As you’ve noted, though, the wider issue is, what happens with the other modals like tsun, new, and var?

Tsun

3.    Po ke tsun yivom.
4.    Po tsun ke yivom.

You’re right that we haven’t seen 4 yet. I have to admit that when I first looked at it, and also at your “Pefya tsun nga ke stivawm aylì’uti oeyä?” sentence, they seemed wrong. But the more I think about it, the more I feel that that structure should be OK. After all, if it weren’t, we wouldn’t have *zene ke kivä as the source of zenke kivä, right?

The next question is, is there a semantic difference between 3 and 4? Yes, there is, as your examples show very clearly.

The final question is, would tsun ke in 4 coalesce into *tsunke? I think the answer here is no, since tsun ke occurs much less frequently than zene ke. (How often do people say, “I’m able not to do X”?)

New

5.    Po ke new kivä.
6.    Po new ke kivä.

As before, we should consider 6 OK grammatically.

The semantic difference between 5 and 6, though, isn’t as clear. Is there a distinction between “He doesn’t want to go” and “He wants not to go”? (I know the second sentence sounds awkward, but the structure is perfectly possible. If you google “wants not to,” you’ll find things like “What if Britain wants not to change?” and “She wants not to be herself.”) Do you see a difference in meaning between 5 and 6? I confess I tried to pin down a difference just now but wound up deleting what I had written, since I didn’t find it completely convincing.
I’d be interested in any thoughts you might have about this.

In any event, we should allow both 5 and 6 grammatically. And I doubt new ke would have developed into *newke.

Var

7.    Po ke var yivom.
8.    Po var ke yivom.

Again, both are grammatical. Here, I think, there’s more of a clear semantic distinction. In 7, she was eating, but she stopped: She didn’t continue to eat. In 8, she hasn’t been eating, and she’s kept it up: She continues not to eat. As before, I wouldn’t expect var ke to have developed into *varke.
[...]
Eywa ngahu,
ta Pawl
[/quote]



msg=665860 | topic=28437 | board=99 | time=2019-07-24 01:51:16 | u=11067

Re: Negation and Modal Verbs

NaVi_Quebec

Irayo ma Tsyili sì Karyu Pawl



msg=665861 | topic=28437 | board=99 | time=2019-07-24 04:46:30 | u=631

Re: Negation and Modal Verbs

Plumps83

That’s amazing news! Thanks ma Tsyili for asking!

… interesting that after all these years we still find things noone has ever thought of (or dared to ask) before ;)



msg=665862 | topic=28437 | board=99 | time=2019-07-24 10:56:39 | u=16745

Re: Negation and Modal Verbs

toliman

Eltur tìtxen si :) Irayo for interesting idea!



msg=665864 | topic=28437 | board=99 | time=2019-07-24 14:50:49 | u=16113

Re: Negation and Modal Verbs

Wllìm

Wou, this is very cool! Thanks for asking (and thanks Pawl for answering :) )



msg=665880 | topic=28437 | board=99 | time=2019-07-25 08:50:12 | u=10322

Re: Negation and Modal Verbs

Titstewan

Irayo nìtxan! :D

That's indeed cool. Yay for more language details. :)



msg=666008 | topic=28444 | board=99 | time=2019-08-04 14:52:06 | u=11067

On "siva ko" and "sivako"

NaVi_Quebec

Everybody knows the expression "Siva ko!", which means "Let's rise to the challenge!".

Considering that people outside the Na'vi community tend to write the expression in a single word, sivako, I asked Karyu Pawl if this was acceptable.
http://naviteri.org/2016/06/mrrvola-lifyavi-amip-forty-new-expressions/comment-page-1/#comment-30174

[quote= Le me]Kaltxì ma Karyu Pawl!
Srake ngal fpìl futa lì’ukìng alu siva ko tsun slivu ne lì’u alu sivako?

Irayo nìli![/quote]
Hello Karyu Pawl!

Do you think that the sentence "siva ko" can be turned into the word "sivako"?

Thanks in advance!


He replied:
[quote=Le Karyu]Irayo, ma Vawmataw.

Lam fwa pxaya ’eylan a tok Mo’arat nulnew sivar tsalì’ukìngit alu Siva ko! na lì’u a’aw. Tì’efumì oeyä, tsalì’u alu sivako tsun tivam.[/quote]
Thank you, Vawmataw!

It seems like many friends of Mo'ara prefer too use the sentence "Siva ko!" as one word. In my opinion, that word "sivako" is OK.


Txawey's hypothesis on the matter is interesting:
[quote= Le Txawey]Pretty much everything from the Valley of Mo'ara takes place at least 100 years in the future from the film, if not more.  My theory is that by that time, since siva ko was uttered so many times, it effectively became one word in practice.[/quote]



msg=666010 | topic=28444 | board=99 | time=2019-08-04 14:59:52 | u=16745

Re: On "siva ko" and "sivako"

toliman

That is really interesting! Sivako!, I never had this idea...

[quote= Le Txawey]Pretty much everything from the Valley of Mo'ara takes place at least 100 years in the future from the film, if not more.  My theory is that by that time, since siva ko was uttered so many times, it effectively became one word in practice.[/quote]
Yeah, it souds as a good idea, I would say :)



msg=667054 | topic=28503 | board=99 | time=2019-10-30 22:49:09 | u=11067

New object: Yìmkxa

NaVi_Quebec

I found this tweet from the official account of Avatar and I found a new word: yìmkxa 'mouth-binder'.
https://twitter.com/officialavatar/status/1189590202701844480

It looks like the thing that's attached on Jake's rope during iknimaya if I guess by the video.



msg=667860 | topic=28503 | board=99 | time=2019-11-19 19:58:09 | u=631

Re: New object: Yìmkxa

Plumps83

Great find :)
It’s getting more and more difficult to keep up with all those media outlets …

For those of us who are interested, I had the chance to ask K. Pawl about the stress -- it’s yìm.KXA

He plans to mention this word in one of his next blog posts as well.



msg=667862 | topic=28503 | board=99 | time=2019-11-19 23:11:06 | u=11067

Re: New object: Yìmkxa

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=28503.msg667860#msg667860 date=1574193489]
Great find :)
It’s getting more and more difficult to keep up with all those media outlets …

For those of us who are interested, I had the chance to ask K. Pawl about the stress -- it’s yìm.KXA

He plans to mention this word in one of his next blog posts as well.

[/quote]
oh, txantsan :D



msg=668903 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-07 20:34:17 | u=17210

Kaltxì is not a noun

Pamìrik

I recently emailed Karyu Pawl with several questions concerning describing the noun-component of si-verbs.
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]These are some tricky questions you’ve posed—but certainly important ones. I need to think about them a bit before I respond definitively.[/quote]

While the answers to those questions may come in time, there was this definitive bit of information provided:

Original Question: Is kaltxì a valid noun for "a greeting"? kaltxì si is the only example of a si-verb where there is no corresponding noun or adjective. We all know kaltxì functions as an interjection, in the same way that irayo functions as an interjection, however irayo is also an attested noun for thanks/a thanking [which forms irayo si], where kaltxì is not.

[quote="Karyu Pawl"]For now, though, I’ll just say that kaltxì can’t be used as the noun for ‘greeting.’ We need a different word for that. (I’ll add it to my list. )[/quote]



msg=668905 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-07 21:33:15 | u=1975

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

Ean Tirea

Thanks for posting this here :) and thanks again for compiling and sending out those questions!



msg=668915 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-07 23:15:16 | u=11067

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

NaVi_Quebec

[img width=800]https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1514/56/1514560447786.png[/img]



msg=668918 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-07 23:17:19 | u=2233

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

archaic

Nounoid?



msg=668921 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-07 23:20:17 | u=16745

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

toliman

This is interesting, how surprise...

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=28545.msg668915#msg668915 date=1578438916]
[spoiler][img width=800]https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1514/56/1514560447786.png[/img][/spoiler]
[/quote]
[quote author=archaic link=topic=28545.msg668918#msg668918 date=1578439039]
Nounoid?
[/quote]
HRH ;D ;D



msg=668924 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-07 23:25:04 | u=11067

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=archaic link=topic=28545.msg668918#msg668918 date=1578439039]
Nounoid?
[/quote]
pseudonoun :P



msg=668926 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-07 23:30:04 | u=16745

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

toliman

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=28545.msg668924#msg668924 date=1578439504]
[quote author=archaic link=topic=28545.msg668918#msg668918 date=1578439039]
Nounoid?
[/quote]
pseudonoun :P
[/quote]
hrh ;D but why no?...



msg=668927 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-08 00:09:55 | u=17210

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

Pamìrik

Currently, the closest comparable word is oìsss- an interjection that also has a corresponding si-verb.



msg=668930 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-08 00:41:02 | u=11067

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

NaVi_Quebec

Oìsss might be a "pseudonoun" too

[spoiler][img width=600]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/154318499722952704/664266869045329920/telechargement.png?width=994&height=560[/img][/spoiler]



msg=668931 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-08 00:41:40 | u=16745

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

toliman

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=28545.msg668930#msg668930 date=1578444062]
Oìsss might be a "pseudonoun" too

[spoiler][img width=600]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/154318499722952704/664266869045329920/telechargement.png?width=994&height=560[/img][/spoiler]
[/quote]
HRH ;D ;D



msg=668932 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-08 00:46:39 | u=11067

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

NaVi_Quebec

Let's place "bets" on what would be 'greeting' in Na'vi

tìkxì? :P




msg=668933 | topic=28545 | board=99 | time=2020-01-08 00:53:41 | u=16745

Re: Kaltxì is not a noun

toliman

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=28545.msg668932#msg668932 date=1578444399]
Let's place "bets" on what would be 'greeting' in Na'vi

tìkxì? :P
[/quote]
tìkxì... hrpeu? ;D ;D ;D



msg=669167 | topic=28551 | board=99 | time=2020-02-01 21:31:15 | u=11067

Vocabulary from Disney's Na'vi translator

NaVi_Quebec

So I bought at Disney the famous Na'vi translator (with the voice of Karyu Pawl) and I discovered some stuff about the vocab.
Everything is normal until I meet sevin and yokx.

1. Sevin is no longer only for people?
[img width=300]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/jamescameronsavatar/images/e/e9/Na%27vi_Translator_Card_nr27.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/318?cb=20181027160512[/img]

Sevin is a word we know since the time of the first songs. According to the LN dictionary it can be used only to describe women until now. I have the card IRL and it's exactly that image. Notice that it's not the face of a woman, but the night scene with helicoradians flying around. If it were only for people, we would clearly see a pretty person or I guess they would have used lor. Or is it a mistake? It's hard to tell when it's canon.

2. There is now a word for shield
[img width=300]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/jamescameronsavatar/images/9/93/Na%27vi_Translator_Card_nr86.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/321?cb=20171005090853[/img]
I don't have this card but it seems genuine. So yokx = shield. I suspect it's a noun since there is no card containing just a single verb.



msg=669172 | topic=28551 | board=99 | time=2020-02-02 10:48:30 | u=631

Re: Vocabulary from Disney's Na'vi translator

Plumps83

That’s and interesting find, ma Vawmataw.

At least for sevin I can say that it has not always been primarily for female people. We have an example of sevin referring to a queue back in [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/07/diminutives-conversational-expressions/]2010[/url]

Ngari tswintsyìp sevin nìtxan lu nang!
‘What a pretty little queue you have!’

So, it seems to be used for objects or things as well.

As for yokx … maybe I can find out something about that …



msg=669593 | topic=28551 | board=99 | time=2020-02-27 21:01:25 | u=631

Re: Vocabulary from Disney's Na'vi translator

Plumps83

It has been a long time but I got word from K. Pawl:

[quote=K. Pawl, 26 Feb 2020]Yokx is indeed a noun.[/quote]

And he confirmed sevin can be used in the context described by the card, and as the example from naviteri.org

[quote=K. Pawl, 26 Feb 2020]… it’s not inconsistent with the way it’s been used in the past.[/quote]



msg=669597 | topic=28551 | board=99 | time=2020-02-27 22:18:53 | u=11067

Re: Vocabulary from Disney's Na'vi translator

NaVi_Quebec

Irayo seiyi!

Now yokx is in the dictionary!



msg=669598 | topic=28551 | board=99 | time=2020-02-28 00:04:33 | u=16745

Re: Vocabulary from Disney's Na'vi translator

toliman

Nice that it's confirmed now :)



msg=670115 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-15 03:46:35 | u=1003

Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

Skipper587

Kaltxì ma frapo!

I recently had a short discussion with KP about question intonation (and intonation in general), and wanted to share the results here for documentation purposes.

Enjoy!

[quote author=Mako]Kaltxì ma Karyu,

Sìlpey oe, nga Johnsì zivo.

A particularly auspicious new learner on the Learn Na'vi Discord server recently asked about vocal intonation in Na'vi and if it's mostly consistent with English. I was wondering if you would weigh in on that at all.

Based on the spoken dialogue in the film, it appears that Na'vi somewhat follows English cues like rising questions and exclamations (which may simply be due to the actors habits), but is there anything else we should know?

Irayo nìli.

ta Mako
Hufwel kxiveltek ngeyä Ikranä syalit
[/quote]
[quote author=Karyu Pawl]
Hey Mako,

Always nice to hear about particularly auspicious new learners! 😀

The question of Na’vi intonation came up in the early stages of the language’s development. I broached the idea that the intonation patterns might in fact be “exotic,” in the sense that they would be very different from what most people are used to in familiar earth languages—say, for example, a falling rather than rising intonation for questions. But it was felt that the intonation patterns shouldn’t depart too far from what’s expected. That is, if a question is being asked, even though the audience doesn’t understand the language, they should at least be able to interpret it as a question from what they’re hearing. So you’re correct: the intonation patterns you hear in the film aren’t too different from what we would expect in English.

That said, we can go a little deeper into the matter.

First let’s look at English.

Three of the most common types of questions are:

Yes-No questions with inversion
Yes-No questions without inversion
WH questions

Examples of each:

“Are you planning to go?”
Here, the statement form “You are planning to go” has been changed to a question by inverting the subject and the be-verb: You are --> Are you. That marks it as a Yes-No question.

“You’re planning to go???”
You can do this in informal conversation only. The question form is identical to the statement form but has rising intonation.

“Who are you planning to go with?”
Here, the WH element, who, marks it as a question.

Now in #2, the only thing that marks it as a question is the rising intonation. So in this type of question, that intonation is obligatory.

In #3, the WH element is enough to tell you it’s a question, so rising intonation isn’t necessary. In fact, I think it’s quite common for WH questions not to use rising intonation. Check it out yourself. How would you say #3? Does your voice necessarily rise at the end? For me, I can pronounce the sentence in several ways, and in most of them, there’s no rising intonation.

#1 is the somewhat odd one. The inversion by itself should be enough to tell you it’s a question. And yet I think such questions are usually accompanied by rising intonation, which is redundant. (Logically speaking, you don’t need two separate markers to indicate the same thing.) Can you think of a circumstance where you would say #1 without rising intonation? Maybe if someone didn’t get the question the first time, and you repeated it, somewhat testily, “What I said was, Are you planning to go?” I could say that with falling intonation, but it’s an unusual situation.

Turning to Na’vi . . .

#3-type sentences work similarly to English WH-questions. The pe- element is enough to mark the utterance as a question. So rising intonation is optional.

Nga kä hu pesu? Pol tok pesenget? No rising intonation is necessary in these.

#2 doesn’t exist in Na’vi. Yes-No Q’s must be marked by Srake ___ or ___ srak.

As for #1, inversion in Na’vi, needless to say, does not signal a question. Pol tok fìtsenget and Tok pol fìtsenget are both statements. But Srake/srak does indicate a question. Rising intonation with these kinds of questions is optional. (I should probably try to provide some spoken examples of Srake/srak questions where the intonation doesn’t rise.)

All the above was about questions. Regarding exclamations, it would seem the intonation patterns would be quite similar across languages, which would make Na'vi naturally follow more or less the same patterns English does. But I haven't looked into this area across different Earth languages.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

PF[/quote]



msg=670120 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-15 17:09:26 | u=17046

Re: Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

Lynxcat

Irayo  :)



msg=670121 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-15 17:48:33 | u=16745

Re: Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

toliman

Very interesting, irayo for sharing here! :)



msg=670123 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-15 17:59:39 | u=1153

Re: Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

Mech

Who is Johnsi?



msg=670126 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-15 21:22:09 | u=11067

Re: Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

NaVi_Quebec

[quote author=Mech link=topic=28583.msg670123#msg670123 date=1586973579]
Who is Johnsi?
[/quote]
It's "sì John" (and John), John being Pawl's s.o.



msg=670128 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-15 23:09:16 | u=631

Re: Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

Plumps83

Irayo nìtxan ma Mako.

That is a very interesting discussion! In Irish there isn’t necessarily a case for intonation. At least from what I heard so far from native speakers. There is a similar question form like Na’vi’s srake/srak, so they rely on the question markers far more than intonation.



msg=670177 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 06:47:13 | u=1003

Re: Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

Skipper587

Received a surprise followup this evening. Enjoy!

[quote author=Karyu Pawl] Ma Mako,

The question of sarcasm in Na'vi is interesting. My intuition about the Na'vi is that they're not prone to it. They tend to be more up front and open about their feelings. If they don't like something, they'll so say directly rather than make a snarky or sarcastic comment. Pak, for example, is clearly disparaging, but it's explicit. So I don't think we'd find example of "sarcastic intonation."

As for other intonational patterns that might be distinct from English ones, I'm sure there are, but it's a wide-ranging phenomenon and I'll have to think about it some more. Off the top of my head, though, one place where the intonation pattern is different from English is with topics. For example:

Ngeyä tipawmìri irayo.  Think how you would say that--what intonation pattern you might use. And compare it to the intonation pattern in the English version, "Thanks for your question." In the Na'vi, it's natural to do something like this: (Not sure if this is going to come across in an email, but I'll try):

              pawmìri i
Ngeyä tì                rayo.

In other words, the topic winds up on a high level, as if it were suspended, waiting for the comment. The comment returns to a low level. We can sometimes do that in English, but I'm not sure how common it is.

There's clearly a lot more to say about this. I'll be thinking . . .

ta P.[/quote]



msg=670181 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 10:06:23 | u=16745

Re: Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

toliman

Very interesting!
Thanks for sharing here.



msg=670192 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 19:30:21 | u=16113

Re: Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

Wllìm

Awesome! I think this is the first time we've heard about sentence-level pitch accents in Na'vi, isn't it?

I like this "topic can be pitched higher" rule very much. (I also like that we've been getting so many replies from Pawl lately. Irayo ma Karyu aNawm!)



msg=670203 | topic=28583 | board=99 | time=2020-04-21 12:57:46 | u=16745

Re: Questions and Intonation in Na'vi

toliman

[quote author=Wllìm link=topic=28583.msg670192#msg670192 date=1587411021]
Awesome! I think this is the first time we've heard about sentence-level pitch accents in Na'vi, isn't it?
[/quote]
Yeah, I never listen about it too.



msg=670124 | topic=28585 | board=99 | time=2020-04-15 20:09:03 | u=10287

Tsun and Making Requests

Kiyari

[desc=Fpole' oel lì'uteri alu tsun a 'upxareti Karyu Pawlur, faylì'u ahay tìpawm oeyä sì tì'eyng peyä lu.]I emailed KP about usage of "tsun", here is the question and response.[/desc]  :)

[quote]A question came up about whether "tsun" can be used to ask someone else to do something. I found a statement the Canon from you about tsun that says it will work for both "can" and "may", but does this include situations where the speaker is asking whether someone may do something for them? (For example; "can you give me this book?"[/quote]
[quote=Karyu Pawl]I don't see why tsun can't be used to ask someone to do something. For example:

Nga tsun oer srung sivi srak?

Srake tsun nga fìpukit tivìng oeru?

Those seem fine to me.

I haven't checked to see how a wide variety of other languages treat this, but it's natural for the word meaning "can" to assume the role of a request in many contexts. This would be a strange conversation:

A. It's hot in here. Can you open the window?

B: Yes.

[Some time elapses. Nothing happens.]

A. Er . . . I asked you to open the window.

B. No you didn't. You asked if I had the ability to open the window, and I answered yes. You didn't request that I do it.

I think you'd agree that B is being a jerk. In this situation there's no reason A would want to question B's ability; that's obvious. It was simply a conversational way of asking him to do something, somewhat less direct than "Please open the window." In comparable cases I think it would work the same in Na'vi.[/quote]



msg=670127 | topic=28585 | board=99 | time=2020-04-15 23:03:29 | u=631

Re: Tsun and Making Requests

Plumps83

Thanks for that confirmation.



msg=670131 | topic=28585 | board=99 | time=2020-04-15 23:30:37 | u=16745

Re: Tsun and Making Requests

toliman

Interesting, irayo!



msg=670135 | topic=28585 | board=99 | time=2020-04-16 17:12:18 | u=7467

Re: Tsun and Making Requests

eejmensenikbenhet

Very interesting indeed!
I definitely used to be person B in answering that question coming from my parents or little brother though. :P ;D



msg=670176 | topic=28586 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 03:46:15 | u=17210

Regarding some memetic uses of Na'vi

Pamìrik

I passed along some of the silly uses of Na'vi that are used around the discord to KP to gather his thoughts on slang, and continue my quest to pester KP about the mechanics of si-verbs ;D
[quote=Pamìrìk]
kaltxì ngaru ma Karyu Pawl,

sìlpey oe tsnì livu ngaru fpom mì hrr anafì'u. lu oer tìpawm a hek nì'it, slä ziyevawprrte' ngane.

mì lì'fyaolo', we have a few "memetic" uses of Na'vi that arise from using grammatical components in unorthodox ways. Though we never pass these along as canon or correct uses of the language, I am curious about your thoughts on how the Na'vi would interpret our memes, or if these kinds of uses of the language would ever be understood/used by them.

1. <name> si

Though si is not productive on our end, we still will sometimes use <name> si as an equivalent of "pulling a (name)", or "doing as (name) is known to do".

As one specific example, a member who goes by Mako is known for constructing sentences in a way that can be difficult to parse or syntactically ambiguous. The phrase "Mako rä'ä si" is sometimes jokingly used to say "don't write super-difficult-to-read Na'vi!". (I believe the more proper version of this would be, for example, "pamrel rä'ä si na Mako")

2. <ei> and <äng> on interjections

"sranänge", "sraneie", and "kehänge" in particular. Obviously they are not verbs, but for fun we sometimes apply infixes to non-verbs in the positions they usually occupy.

I hope you found these uses of Na'vi enjoyable. Again, these expressions are something we throw around in silly contexts, and isn't something we teach or imply is correct. On that note, a final question: how would one describe "casual speech" in Na'vi? We have the adjective skepek, but as far as I am aware the only opposite is räptum which feels a step too far in the opposite direction- offensive as opposed to just irreverent.

ta Pamìrìk[/quote]

Response!

[quote="Paul Frommer"]Kxì, ma Pamìrìk!

I love word play, and I'm delighted you folks are having fun with Na'vi.

If we're talking validity, the question I would ask myself is, How likely would it be for these innovations to crop up among young Na'vis on Pandora? If they might use these colloquial bits of language themselves in informal contexts, there's no reason we shouldn't do the same.

I think the Name + si construction is exactly what young Na'vis would come up with! It seems like a perfectly natural extension of si-verbs: ordinary nouns and adjectives can be the non-verbal element in these constructions, so why not proper nouns as well? Obviously it's for informal use only, but I think it's great. (What would the English equivalent of "Mako rä'ä si" be? Maybe "Don't pull a Mako"?)

As for the <ei> and <äng> infixes in things other than verbs, like srane and kehe, I'm less certain those would occur in the casual speech of young people, but to tell you the truth, I'm not sure. They'd surely be considered "slang," but slang occurs in every language I know of. All I can say is, it's possible! And here are other relevant questions, not just about this particular issue but about virtually all language innovation: Does it fill a need? Does it serve a purpose as yet unserved? Does it make it easier or more efficient to express something you want to express? In this case, I think the answer might be yes! If you want to "color" your yeses or noes, the standard grammar says you can't use the attitudinals since there's no verb; the only way to do it is to add adverbs like fortunately, unfortunately, happily, sadly, etc.--or just to use your vocal inflection. But allowing things like sranänge and keheie gets around that problem neatly. So, even if it's Na'vi slang, I think those forms are really creative and I like 'em--in very casual conversation.

Just to repeat myself, I'm really happy you're all having fun with the language!

As for terminology for the different levels or "registers" of language--everyday language, ceremonial, formal, informal, conversational, slang, etc.--I'll have to think about it. We may need some new vocabulary items. (I agree, btw: räptum is extremely negative and not what's wanted here at all, unless you're specifically talking about coarse, vulgar language.)

Aylrrtokìri irayo!

ta P.[/quote]



msg=670178 | topic=28586 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 06:58:16 | u=1003

Re: Regarding some memetic uses of Na'vi

Skipper587

I think I’ve officially arrived.

Thanks for sharing, Pam!



msg=670179 | topic=28586 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 08:21:24 | u=631

Re: Regarding some memetic uses of Na'vi

Plumps83

That is indeed very intersting.

Also great to see/hear that K. Pawl lets us having fun with the language :)

As long as it’s not something like <name>ti za’ärìp :P which would be a too literal (and English) translation.



msg=670180 | topic=28586 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 10:04:18 | u=16745

Re: Regarding some memetic uses of Na'vi

toliman

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!



msg=670185 | topic=28586 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 11:52:35 | u=5737

Re: Regarding some memetic uses of Na'vi

eanunil

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=28586.msg670179#msg670179 date=1587370884]
That is indeed very intersting.

Also great to see/hear that K. Pawl lets us having fun with the language :)

As long as it’s not something like <name>ti za’ärìp :P which would be a too literal (and English) translation.

[/quote]

Mllteie! And hrh, "pulling a <name>" would indeed go too far xD I guess "<name> si" is sufficiently wild as it is! ;D



msg=670193 | topic=28586 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 19:30:58 | u=16113

Re: Regarding some memetic uses of Na'vi

Wllìm

[quote author=Eana Unil link=topic=28586.msg670185#msg670185 date=1587383555]
"pulling a <name>"
[/quote]

HRH, I had no idea what Plumps was aiming at, thanks for the explanation ;D



msg=670194 | topic=28586 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 21:13:13 | u=11067

Re: Regarding some memetic uses of Na'vi

NaVi_Quebec

I love it ;D
Canon memes :P



msg=670198 | topic=28586 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 22:02:39 | u=16745

Re: Regarding some memetic uses of Na'vi

toliman

HRH ;D



msg=670184 | topic=28587 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 11:44:43 | u=5737

Negating participles (and adjectives) in Na'vi + participles as predicates

eanunil

Prompted by a discussion on our Discord server, I asked Karyu Pawl whether constructions like ke-<awn>inan-a upxare (so, negating any participle) would be valid or not, since you can (kolan... could up until now) negate adjectives productively, which don't already have "separate lexical items" like described [url=https://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/how-to-form-negativeopposite-adjectivesadverbs/]here[/url]:

[quote]To form the negative of an adjective, use the negative prefix ke-. Note, however, that for le- adjectives, *kele... > kel...  There are also some idiosyncrasies: for example, keltsunslu is usually reduced to simply keltsun. Also, *keeyawr > keyawr by the general rule that two identical vowels coalesce into one.

This is a productive process when there aren't separate lexical items in the dictionary like the ones you pointed out: tsawl ~ hì'i, koak ~ 'ewan, etc. So there's no *ketsawl, *kehì'i, *kekoak, *ke'ewan, just as in English we don't have *unyoung, *unold, *unbig, *unsmall.[/quote]

So here's what KP replied to my initial question about negating participles:

[quote]Before looking at participles, let's look at ordinary adjectives. Can we in fact negate them easily using ke? I don't remember talking about that, and if I did, I hope I won't be contradicting myself here (please let me know if you discover that I am!), but I don't think of ke + adjective as being freely productive. We have examples like teng / keteng, eyawr / keyawr, fpomronga' / kefpomronga'. But what about kelor? kenitram? ketsawl? etc. I wouldn't think those exist. And notice that the three examples I gave of ke + adj. are all listed in the dictionary. So it seems clear that ke + adj. is not a freely productive mechanism and such forms have to be treated as individual lexical items.

Turning now to participles with <awn>, we know that <awn> insertion into transitive verbs IS a productive process -- I can't think of any transitive verbs that don't have <awn> forms. And you're right that these are essentially adjectives. But in the same way that you can't necessarily take any adjective you like and turn it into its opposite by prefixing ke, you shouldn't be able to do that with participles either.

There's a parallel situation in English, where Eng. un corresponds to Na'vi ke. We certainly have pairs like seen / unseen, heard / unheard, spoken / unspoken, chosen / unchosen, read / unread, finished / unfinished, and many many more. But can you always do this? Is the process unconstrained? What about unpinched, untorn, unlifted, unironed, unrequired, unpoached, etc. As I wrote those, I got the red squiggle under each one, indicating that Spell Check thought they were not legitimate words. Now it's not at all obvious--at least not to me--which participles can be negated by un and which can't. I have a feeling it's a pretty deep question. But whatever the explanation is, it's clear that you can't freely use un like this; you need to see if the un + participle form is in the dictionary.

It seems to me that Na'vi should work the same way.

But keep in mind that even if a ke + PART form is not in the dictionary and therefore not a word, you can still get the intended meaning across easily. Even if we don't know whether *keawinan is a legitimate word (I suspect it's not, given the use of inan prior to its adoption as the word for reading written language), we can still talk about unread messages by saying "upxare a ke lu awinan." That's only one more syllable than "*upxare akeawinan."

Hope that helps![/quote]

Guys... "upxare a ke lu awninan"  :o (I assume awinan was a typo? Also asked about that, hrh.)
3.6.3.3. of horen being rendered invalid by this, meaning, that participles can indeed be used as predicates! But just to be sure, I asked for confirmation on this.

Anyway, it ties in perfectly with what he wrote about negating adjectives in 2013. However, it leaves me with the question, when to know that it would be safe to negate adjectives (does one have to take English as the source there?) or would it be up to him to create such negated adjectives?
So I asked a follow-up question whether that renders ke- being unproductive (meaning, forming negated adjectives like that would be left to KP only) or if there are any indications to when it would be safe to negate adjectives productively as he indicated in his reply to Blue Elf in 2013.

Will edit this message here, once I have received more word on this.

Tsakrrvay~ :)



msg=670186 | topic=28587 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 12:05:44 | u=16745

Re: Negating participles in Na'vi

toliman

Eltur tìtxen si nìtxan :)

Again thanks for shating of these interesting things!



msg=670189 | topic=28587 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 15:28:28 | u=631

Re: Negating participles in Na'vi

Plumps83

[quote author=Eana Unil link=topic=28587.msg670184#msg670184 date=1587383083]
Guys... "upxare a ke lu awninan"  :o (I assume awinan was a typo? Also asked about that, hrh.)
3.6.3.3. of horen being rendered invalid by this, meaning, that participles can indeed be used as predicates! But just to be sure, I asked for confirmation on this.[/quote]

I really hope he reconsiders this :o It has always been said that participles are always used attributively, never as a predicate. He has said so on multiple occasions. So, thanks for asking for confirmation again.

Good to hear about the ke-‘rule’ I was never too keen about that. It always rubbed me the wrong way :P



msg=670191 | topic=28587 | board=99 | time=2020-04-20 19:24:07 | u=16113

Re: Negating participles in Na'vi

Wllìm

[quote=Pawl]
Can we in fact negate them easily using ke? I don't remember talking about that, and if I did, I hope I won't be contradicting myself here (please let me know if you discover that I am!), but I don't think of ke + adjective as being freely productive.
[/quote]

I'm quite sure he actually is contradicting himself: the earlier message you quoted says that it is productive, and now he's saying it's not. Am I missing something?

Personally I do agree with Plumps. I never really liked ke- being productive, so I would like it to go away. Furthermore, I think that almost no one actually knew about and used this rule in their texts, and therefore it would not be a disaster to retcon it.

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=28587.msg670189#msg670189 date=1587396508]
I really hope he reconsiders this :o It has always been said that participles are always used attributively, never as a predicate. He has said so on multiple occasions. So, thanks for asking for confirmation again.
[/quote]

And yes, zam times this! :-\ I'm assuming it was an oversight when writing the sentence and he meant 'upxare a fkol ke inan or 'upxare a kawtul ke inan or something like that.



msg=670202 | topic=28587 | board=99 | time=2020-04-21 10:43:34 | u=5737

Re: Negating participles (and adjectives) in Na'vi + participles as predicates

eanunil

Yeah, I've been confused by that, too, that's why I've asked for clarification. Hopefully that will be clarified after he's replied again :)

Tbh I wouldn't mind being able to use participles as predicates, but it would indeed be a sudden and unexpected change after they have been explicitly limited to attributive use only again and again.

Guess we'll see ;)



msg=670210 | topic=28589 | board=99 | time=2020-04-21 22:09:31 | u=10287

Tsa-Words, The Complete Set

Kiyari

"Speaking of contractions that we haven't seen officially yet, do "tsa'ul a", "tsa'ur a", and "tsa'uri a" contract?"

[quote=Karyu Pawl]The answer is: Yes! The contracted forms are:

fwa / tsawa
fula / tsala
futa / tsata
fura / tsara
furia / tsaria

So we have 5 "f-words" and 5 parallel "ts-words." The only missing ones are the theoretical fì'uä a --> fuä (fua would get confused with fwa) , and tsa'uä a --> tsä, but I can't think of any contexts in which they would be used. [I may be having second thoughts on this! More soon, I hope.]



As you've noticed, I've been using the f-versions pretty much exclusively. The ts-versions could certainly be used as well, but I don't think it would be a random choice. There should be some principle that decides between fwa and tsawa, futa and tsata, etc. I'll need to think about that.[/quote]



msg=670211 | topic=28589 | board=99 | time=2020-04-22 08:10:24 | u=631

Re: Tsa-Words, The Complete Set

Plumps83

Thanks for the update.

I thought we’ve seen tsaria before …  :-\

Tsaria fkol pole’un futa Loak slu taronyu, sempul ’efu ye.
‘Father is content that it’s been decided Loak will be a hunter.’ [[url=http://naviteri.org/2011/04/%E2%80%99a%E2%80%99awa-li%E2%80%99fyavi-amip%E2%80%94a-few-new-expressions/]1[/url]]

Tsaria pol awngati ke txayìng oe ’efu am’ake nìwotx.
‘I’m entirely confident that he won’t abandon us.’ [[url=http://naviteri.org/2012/06/spring-vocabulary-part-3/]2[/url]]

Great that we have the full set now ;D All the tables that we can add to grammars and learning materials ;)




msg=670221 | topic=28589 | board=99 | time=2020-04-24 05:40:40 | u=10322

Re: Tsa-Words, The Complete Set

Titstewan

Coolness! :D

I just updated the "[url=https://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=25360.0]Na'vi Linguistics: The clause-level attributive and adjective marker a[/url]". :)



msg=670371 | topic=28596 | board=99 | time=2020-05-02 22:24:23 | u=631

On sequential verbs and quoting

Plumps83

Ma frapo,

After the latest blog post with its example for pon, I was curious about this sentence: Tsun nekll zivup tsawng.

My question was about the scope of them because, potentially, you could stack as many as you want together until the end of the last songs ;)


[quote=me]Did you ever decide on how far these can go? Can you have a sequence [of] more than two verbs? In other words, are (to put it to its extreme)
    1) oe fmi tivätxaw tsun tìnvi sivi
    2) ne kelku oe tätxaw yäpur yom hahaw
possible?
[/quote]

His reply:

[quote]But I don't think there should be more than two such verbs sequentially. If you need more, simply insert a tsakrr.[/quote]

Of course, sequences of multiple modal verbs are excluded from this ‘rule’.

================

For the next one, I can’t give you a quote, unfortunately—so I have to rely on my memory. I was asking him about whether san … sìk could be used as people like to do in our quoting formula in (written) stories: “ …, ” he said, i.e., san … sìk coming initially before the quoting formula like po plltxe.

He specifically said to me that he couldn’t imagine it being used that way.

So, san … (sìk) will always come after the introduction formula like po plltxe/pawm/ätxäle si etc.



msg=670372 | topic=28596 | board=99 | time=2020-05-02 22:47:18 | u=16113

Re: On sequential verbs and quoting

Wllìm

Txantsan, irayo! The usage of sequential verbs seems pretty restricted (and I think that makes sense).

[quote author=Plumps link=topic=28596.msg670371#msg670371 date=1588458263]
Of course, sequences of multiple modal verbs are excluded from this ‘rule’.
[/quote]

I'm happy that constructions like oe zene nivew tsivun srivew stay possible ;D



msg=670373 | topic=28596 | board=99 | time=2020-05-02 22:54:12 | u=11067

Re: On sequential verbs and quoting

NaVi_Quebec

[spoiler]oe zene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene nivew tsivun srivew [/spoiler]



msg=670375 | topic=28596 | board=99 | time=2020-05-02 23:07:44 | u=16745

Re: On sequential verbs and quoting

toliman

[quote author=Vawmataw link=topic=28596.msg670373#msg670373 date=1588460052]
[spoiler]oe zene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene zivene nivew tsivun srivew [/spoiler]
[/quote]
HRH!



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