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msg=70929 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:56:22 | u=2885
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Megan Megatoast
So... lets say I wanted to say that there were 9 of something... How do I express 9?
msg=70933 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:58:24 | u=21
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
wm.annis
[quote author=Megan Megatoast link=topic=3439.msg70929#msg70929 date=1265064982]
So... lets say I wanted to say that there were 9 of something... How do I express 9?
[/quote]
volaw: 8 + 1.
msg=70966 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 23:20:35 | u=2234
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tsu roen
9 decimal is 11 octal. So a for a Na'vi 8+1 is 11
msg=70997 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 23:58:00 | u=2885
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Megan Megatoast
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg70933#msg70933 date=1265065104]
[quote author=Megan Megatoast link=topic=3439.msg70929#msg70929 date=1265064982]
So... lets say I wanted to say that there were 9 of something... How do I express 9?
[/quote]
volaw: 8 + 1.
[/quote]
Thanks so much!
So I've gotten conversion from base 10 to base 8 down... but how do I convert from base 8 to base 10? I'm probably missing something obvious. :-[
msg=71004 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:03:38 | u=54
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tiger
Here's a hint...
In decimal
135
1 = 1 (hundreds = 10 x 10)
3 = 3 (tens = 10)
5 = 5 (ones)
In octal
135
1 = 1 (sixtyfours = (octal)10 x 10 = (decimal) 8 x 8)
3 = 3 (eights = (octal)10 = (decimal)8)
5 = 5 (ones)
= 1 x 64 + 3 x 8 + 5 x 1 = 93 (decimal)
msg=71142 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 01:31:22 | u=2613
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
dky.tehkingd.u
Great... numbers etc. W00tz! :D
Now how would we actually use them in context? Do they count as adjectives or are there other rules applied to them? ???
msg=71219 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:56:53 | u=1120
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
roger
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=3439.msg69756#msg69756 date=1265030718]
[quote]But the German would still be intelligible w/o the und. [/quote]
???
No, it surely isn't intelligible, at least not as it is now.
If a person would say "fünf zwanzig", I'm quite sure that I'd not know, that he means "fünfundzwanzig".
"Fünf zwanzig" simply doesn't make any sense.
Maybe 520 or 5.20 (Euro) ...
E. g. "Das macht fünf zwanzig." (lit.: "This makes five twenty") is understood as "The price is 5.20 (Euro)". No German speaker would understand, that you could mean 25 (Euro). This is for sure!
[/quote]
Well, no, it's not going to be intelligible if no-one ever says it. But it would be just as intelligible as the rest if people started speaking that way; logically it would work just fine. My point is that we don't really need the und in German, but there it is anyway, a historical fossil. We don't really need a sì in Na'vi, but it might be there anyway. Especially if they haven't been counting to large numbers for very long, they might find it uncomfortable to string a bunch of numbers together without any breaks. Or maybe sì would mean that we have two independent numbers. At this point we don't know.
msg=71226 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:06:04 | u=1120
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
roger
[quote author=dky.tehkingd.u link=topic=3439.msg71142#msg71142 date=1265074282]
Great... numbers etc. W00tz! :D
Now how would we actually use them in context? Do they count as adjectives or are there other rules applied to them? ???
[/quote]
AFAI can tell, "five years" is zìzìt amrr. No plural necessary, because you have a number (as in Hungarian), and attributive 'a' to make the number modify the noun.
msg=73415 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 23:04:34 | u=3566
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Panzerfaust
Just got up the nerd-courage to look at this site yesterday. I skipped over the vocabulary to look at the grammar section, and found some very interesting elements. Conjugating verbs by emotion and including dual and trial pronouns are really intriguing ideas for a language. I was, however, flattened by the wall of linguistic vocabulary in the main articles, so i thought "this is awfully complicated for day one, i'l go learn to count to 10 for laughs. That will be easy, right?". Sadly i find that the Na'vi use base 8 numbers... fundamentally different to all of human upbringing and thought. Looks like counting to 10 is not going to be so easy. Though of course Na'vi is understandably different from terran languages, i was at first annoyed with the unnecessary complication that having to think in base 8 added. I got to thinking on it, and as i hadn't used a base other than 10 in a long time i started counting on my fingers thinking how to say 10 in Na'vi. I quickly remembered how different bases work and had no problem with it. Then something hit me... when faced with a new number concept i used my FINGERS to figure things out. Humans have 5 fingers on each hand, for 10 in total. We can count to 10 on them, and our entire numerical system is based on 10. The Na'vi, however, have 4 fingers on each hand, allowing them to count only to 8, and oddly enough their entire numerical system is based on 8. I was amazed at how much this made sense... assuredly the most early concept of numbers began with us counting on our fingers, and evolved from there. Only natural then, that we think in 10's, and equally natural that the Na'vi think in 8's. Just how much this now makes sense made me respect the guy that wrote this language alot more, and i am now significantly more interested in understanding (at least some of) it.
Sorry for the rant... i have a habit of making massive posts and i found the brutal logic of 8-fingers-8-base really intriguing.
I am going to look at the guide to linguistic terms i just found in your "downloads" section. Hopefully this will help me understand the articles over the rest of the language better. I have 5 years of highschool spanish and am hoping that will help me understand this language. Thanks to anyone that read all this, lol!
msg=73455 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 23:24:59 | u=54
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tiger
It is no accident that both numbers and fingers are called "digits" in English.
msg=73485 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 23:54:44 | u=802
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tselxa
Hmm? No Na'vi 0? No computers for you silly Na'vi ;)
msg=73513 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 00:29:25 | u=3566
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Panzerfaust
And of course, now looking through the pocket guide it flat out says:
"As the Na‟vi have four digits per hand, they have a base-eight number system."
Guess my discovery wasn't much of a discovery, oh well.
Oe ke tsole'a
msg=73550 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 01:23:06 | u=2613
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
dky.tehkingd.u
[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg71226#msg71226 date=1265079964]
[quote author=dky.tehkingd.u link=topic=3439.msg71142#msg71142 date=1265074282]
Great... numbers etc. W00tz! :D
Now how would we actually use them in context? Do they count as adjectives or are there other rules applied to them? ???
[/quote]
AFAI can tell, "five years" is zìzìt amrr. No plural necessary, because you have a number (as in Hungarian), and attributive 'a' to make the number modify the noun.
[/quote]
Hmm, so they're normal adjectives then.
Makes sense.
msg=73622 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 02:57:21 | u=1485
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Erimeyz
[quote author=Panzerfaust link=topic=3439.msg73415#msg73415 date=1265151874]
Just got up the nerd-courage to look at this site yesterday.
[/quote]
Congratulations, and welcome aboard! We're all very friendly nerds here. :)
[quote author=Panzerfaust link=topic=3439.msg73415#msg73415 date=1265151874]
I was, however, flattened by the wall of linguistic vocabulary in the main articles
[/quote]
Alas, yes, there's a lot of that. The first step for beginners is kind of steep. The best starting points we have right now are the Pocket Guide, the Crash Course in Linguistics, and the Na'vi Dictionary:
[url=http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Learn-Navi-Pocket-Guide.pdf]http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Learn-Navi-Pocket-Guide.pdf[/url]
[url=http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Linguistic-terminology-crash-course.pdf]http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Linguistic-terminology-crash-course.pdf[/url]
[url=http://content.learnnavi.org/taronyu/NaviDictionary.pdf]http://content.learnnavi.org/taronyu/NaviDictionary.pdf[/url]
[quote author=Panzerfaust link=topic=3439.msg73415#msg73415 date=1265151874]
"this is awfully complicated for day one, i'l go learn to count to 10 for laughs. That will be easy, right?".
[/quote]
Hah! :) Oh, the irony...
[quote author=Panzerfaust link=topic=3439.msg73415#msg73415 date=1265151874]
The Na'vi, however, have 4 fingers on each hand, allowing them to count only to 8, and oddly enough their entire numerical system is based on 8. I was amazed at how much this made sense... assuredly the most early concept of numbers began with us counting on our fingers, and evolved from there. Only natural then, that we think in 10's, and equally natural that the Na'vi think in 8's. Just how much this now makes sense made me respect the guy that wrote this language alot more, and i am now significantly more interested in understanding (at least some of) it.
[/quote]
I'm glad you had that insight! Paul Frommer (the guy who wrote the language) really has put a lot of thought into it, and has given us all a very interesting (and beautiful) toy to play with.
Enjoy your experience learning Na'vi!
- Eri
msg=73693 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 04:26:25 | u=1120
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
roger
[quote author=dky.tehkingd.u link=topic=3439.msg73550#msg73550 date=1265160186]
[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg71226#msg71226 date=1265079964]
[quote author=dky.tehkingd.u link=topic=3439.msg71142#msg71142 date=1265074282]
Great... numbers etc. W00tz! :D
Now how would we actually use them in context? Do they count as adjectives or are there other rules applied to them? ???
[/quote]
AFAI can tell, "five years" is zìzìt amrr. No plural necessary, because you have a number (as in Hungarian), and attributive 'a' to make the number modify the noun.
[/quote]
Hmm, so they're normal adjectives then.
Makes sense.
[/quote]
Well, they seem to be used attributively the way adjectives are. (Though, to be fair, AFAIK we only have two tokens of this, and one is a line from the movie.) But that doesn't mean they do the other things that adjectives do. You can say s.t. is "prettier", but I rather doubt you can say it's "five-ier".
msg=73715 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 04:57:03 | u=2234
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tsu roen
[quote author=Tefpakyu link=topic=3439.msg73485#msg73485 date=1265154884]
Hmm? No Na'vi 0? No computers for you silly Na'vi ;)
[/quote]
Well the number "0" and it's use is a quiet advanced mathematical concept. Even in the western world it is for less than 1000 years in common use. And West learned it's use from the Arab's who most likely learned it from India.
The zero was also used by Mesoamerican high cultures who had developed quiet accurate calendars that they needed for their agriculture.
To come up with it you need to do some serious math.
I don't know if the Na'vi have a practical use for it. Do they have a calendar? Do they need one? They do not have agriculture and as far as we know the climate is not changing too much.
Also they had no writing system which makes it unlikely that they did complicated astrological calculations required for developing a calendar.
If they had no "0" we may just assume they adapted the English "zero" -> "sìro" or "tsìro"?
msg=73986 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 10:58:57 | u=1120
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
roger
[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg73715#msg73715 date=1265173023]
I don't know if the Na'vi have a practical use for it. Do they have a calendar? Do they need one? They do not have agriculture and as far as we know the climate is not changing too much.
If they had no "0" we may just assume they adapted the English "zero" -> "sìro" or "tsìro"?
[/quote]
Or maybe ziro !
The Na'vi could have quite an elaborate calendar. Evidently (per the SG) the seasons are quite dramatic, so they'd have the four seasons, and we know they have a word for "year". But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight. If Polyphemus eclipses Rigil (ACA), then there may be cycles of eclipses and non-eclipsing periods. Considering how long an eclipse by Polyphemus would last (a substantial fraction of a day), that might inspire calendars. Then there are the two neighboring moons which create strong tides on Pandora (strong enough for tidal heating of the moon, so much stronger than the effect of Luna on Earth), and there are many seas on Pandora, so there's the timing of the tides as the basis for counting time. And finally there's Kent (ACB), a fraction of a percent of the brightness of Rigil, but bright enough to illuminate the night quite effectively - maybe a thousand times brighter than a full moon on Earth. Half of the year Kent would be in the night sky, and half the year it wouldn't, so those are additional seasons beyond spring-summer-fall-winter. Kent's brightness would vary rather dramatically during its 87-year orbit, which is rather elliptical (e = 0.5), so that provides a handy natural 87-year (Terran year) "century" for the Na'vi. Also, the time Kent illuminates the night sky would cycle through the seasons, so you have that even longer period ("millennium"? "eon"?) between times Kent is at zenith at winter solstice.
Yes, lots of natural cycles to base a calendar on rather than just day, month, year.
msg=74704 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 17:19:22 | u=802
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tselxa
I don't think we'll be getting anything on the Na'vi calender until at least Avatar 2, so let's get what we know and formalise it!
msg=74871 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 18:20:04 | u=1855
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
tawway
[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg69650#msg69650 date=1265027178]
The "und" is there only because German turns the last two numberes out of order:
English: twenty five
German: fünf.und.zwanzig (= 5 + 20)
Na'vi: mevomrr (25 oct.)
[/quote]
The Na'vi for 25 (decimal) is actually 31 (octal), so mevomrr isn't right. It should be pxevolaw.
Look VERY carefully at the tables, which show octal, and you'll see that 8 & 9 are missing. It is confusing because we're using our decimal digits and it looks like we're skipping some. Na'vi counts like this
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 20 octal / Na'vi
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 decimal / us
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F 10 hexadecimal
My only save there is that being a unix kinda guy I understand hexadecimal (base 16) reasonably and octal is "half" that. Hex is actually easier because a-f are used as numbers and it immediately triggers "this isn't decimal". Dropping 8 & 9 for octal means that there is no easy way to differentiate. I'd expect to see things like 20o for octal to tell me that it is 2x8 or 16.
msg=74876 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 18:23:43 | u=1855
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
tawway
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3439.msg68567#msg68567 date=1264968355]
[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg68511#msg68511 date=1264967513]
Remember that the Na'vi weren't supposed to count above vofu '16' because that's how many fingers and toes they had? Well, vofu is 16 octal: it's 14 decimal. So does that mean the Na'vi have three toes on each foot?
[/quote]
Since we can see in the movie that they have 4, it's most probably 16 decimal.
[/quote]
Yes, 4*4 = 16 decimal. In octal it would be 20.
Na'vi have tsìng digits on one hand, vol digits on both and mevol including toes. Go higher only if you dare...
(assuming four fingers/toes per limb)
msg=74892 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 18:34:33 | u=1855
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
tawway
[quote author=Megan Megatoast link=topic=3439.msg70997#msg70997 date=1265068680]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg70933#msg70933 date=1265065104]
[quote author=Megan Megatoast link=topic=3439.msg70929#msg70929 date=1265064982]
So... lets say I wanted to say that there were 9 of something... How do I express 9?
[/quote]
volaw: 8 + 1.
[/quote]
Thanks so much!
So I've gotten conversion from base 10 to base 8 down... but how do I convert from base 8 to base 10? I'm probably missing something obvious. :-[
[/quote]
You would treat the "columns" as 1's 10's 100's 1000s' but each column isn't 1, 10, 10x10, 10x10x10. It's now 1, 8, 8*8, 8*8*8
(or 1, 8, 64, 512). Like this:
263o = 2*8*8 + 6*8 + 3 = 128 + 48 + 3 = 179 decimal
You can look at 263o as "two sixty-fours, six eights and three". Once you get the columns right it's a lot faster to convert the numbers.
msg=75347 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 23:05:24 | u=1620
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
dontbugme
does anybody know how to ask "how many" or how to say "do something X times" ?
msg=77189 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 22:01:54 | u=195
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
esoanem
I believe from used "pefya holpxay" to mean how many although I could be misremembering and it was actually just "peholpxay"/"holpxaype".
As for do it X many times, I'd probably just use nì-.
So kill twice would be "tspang nìmune".
msg=77744 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 07:18:35 | u=1
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Seabass
The script on the vocabulary page now supports all number that we know (up to 8028159, "kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin").
[url=http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers]http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers[/url]
msg=80621 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:23:37 | u=2613
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
dky.tehkingd.u
The number conversion page is very annoying to use actually. Can't you just have a normal text box / submit button instead of an annoying thing that changes your value every time you try to type? >:(
msg=80729 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:28:57 | u=195
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
esoanem
Having just used the bit on the website (which I don't mind too much) I propose that the na'vi for leet should be zati as 1337(dec)=2471(oct). ;D
msg=80736 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:37:58 | u=1318
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
HTML_Earth
[quote author=Seabass link=topic=3439.msg77744#msg77744 date=1265354315]
The script on the vocabulary page now supports all number that we know (up to 8028159, "kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin").
[url=http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers]http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers[/url]
[/quote]
I found a mistake:
If you only type 6 it says "ukap" instead of "pukap"
msg=80759 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:48:10 | u=195
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
esoanem
It's misbehaving if I try to type 8 or 9 in as well. And I can't use the arrow keys to go back and delete part of the number I typed in.
msg=81867 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 06:04:12 | u=2613
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
dky.tehkingd.u
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg80759#msg80759 date=1265478490]
It's misbehaving if I try to type 8 or 9 in as well. And I can't use the arrow keys to go back and delete part of the number I typed in.
[/quote]
Exactly my point.
msg=81871 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 06:07:54 | u=1
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Seabass
8 or 9 don't exist in octal, hence it yells at you.
Script has been updated; it shouldn't be replacing invalid entries, but lets you correct them.
msg=81972 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 08:26:06 | u=195
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
esoanem
The input type was set as decimal. I thought that was probably the reason but it shouldn't be doing it.
It doesn't mind 18 or 19, it just seems to height 8 and 9 on their own.
msg=83516 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 00:17:34 | u=3863
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Mithcoriel
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg70762#msg70762 date=1265059506]
Fì'uri nìfrau sweya kawngunil oeyä längu nìwotx! Oeyä elturi teriholpxay ke lu tìsìlpey nìngay nìwotx. Kxawm txo fya'o a tsun rel sivi nìholpxay ke livu tengfya fya'o nìkll nìvomun ha oer tìtsun tlsivam KWAWM kop ziyeva'u. Slä, nìngay nìteng 'it'evi slolu oe. Tìngay awngar lu holpxay nìwotx ta K. Pawl a fìtxeleri oeru prrte' leiu nìhawng, slä sngusä'iset zene nivume! Eywa oehu! :'(
[/quote]
Any chance you could translate that? I'm sure there are some Navi-newbies who are curious what you said, at least I am. ^^
[Quote]But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.[/quote]
Wow. But we saw that days (and therefore months) aren't that long on Pandora, didn't we? I mean not much longer than an earth day.
msg=83547 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 00:49:26 | u=3552
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
tigermind
[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=3439.msg83516#msg83516 date=1265588254]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg70762#msg70762 date=1265059506]
Fì'uri nìfrau sweya kawngunil oeyä längu nìwotx! Oeyä elturi teriholpxay ke lu tìsìlpey nìngay nìwotx. Kxawm txo fya'o a tsun rel sivi nìholpxay ke livu tengfya fya'o nìkll nìvomun ha oer tìtsun tlsivam KWAWM kop ziyeva'u. Slä, nìngay nìteng 'it'evi slolu oe. Tìngay awngar lu holpxay nìwotx ta K. Pawl a fìtxeleri oeru prrte' leiu nìhawng, slä sngusä'iset zene nivume! Eywa oehu! :'(
[/quote]
Any chance you could translate that? I'm sure there are some Navi-newbies who are curious what you said, at least I am. ^^
[Quote]But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.[/quote]
Wow. But we saw that days (and therefore months) aren't that long on Pandora, didn't we? I mean not much longer than an earth day.
[/quote]
Personally, i can't see any good reason to assume Pandora is tidally locked to Polyphemus; our moon happens to be tidally locked, but my understanding iss that our moon was very much the exception and not the rule. Polyphemus is so large that if it were in the same place in the Pandoran sky all the time, i don't think we ever would have not seen it in the sky--after all, the Hometree is only, what, 100, 200 km from Hell's Gate? That wouldn't be far enough to change the view substantially; and, if i remember correctly, we specifically see Polyphemus in the sky at one point, and then at a later time in about the same place we don't. Now, having said all that, i'm pretty sure James Cameron might have fudged the astrophysics a little for the sake of making a movie.
msg=83631 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 02:39:06 | u=2234
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tsu roen
[Quote]But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.[/quote]
Actually the ASG states in detail that Pandora is NOT tidally locked.
Though that would be indeed unusual.
[quote=Wikipedia]Most significant moons in the Solar System are tidally locked with their primaries, since they orbit very closely and tidal force increases rapidly (as a cubic) with decreasing distance. Notable exceptions are the irregular outer satellites of the gas giant planets, which orbit much farther away than the large well-known moons.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons[/url][/quote]
msg=84748 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 17:55:01 | u=432
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Jasper
[quote author=Tsu'roen link=topic=3439.msg83631#msg83631 date=1265596746]
[Quote]But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.[/quote]
Actually the ASG states in detail that Pandora is NOT tidally locked.
Though that would be indeed unusual.
[quote=Wikipedia]Most significant moons in the Solar System are tidally locked with their primaries, since they orbit very closely and tidal force increases rapidly (as a cubic) with decreasing distance. Notable exceptions are the irregular outer satellites of the gas giant planets, which orbit much farther away than the large well-known moons.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons[/url][/quote]
[/quote]
well, your second quote:
polyphemus is a gas giant, and we don't know how far pandora is away from it, so it's not weird for it not to be tidally locked.
and well the ASG is kinda the best recourse we have for this kinda stuff so..
eywa ayngahu,
atanä mungeyu
msg=85569 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:59:52 | u=2234
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tsu roen
Pandora appears to be in a relatively close orbit from the size of Polyphemus on it's sky.
msg=85715 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 00:33:33 | u=1120
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
roger
Yeah, I think that would have to be artistic license.
But it would mean that a month (≈ a week?) is a different period than a day.
msg=85743 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 01:08:05 | u=2234
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tsu roen
We just don't have enough intel do do any of those calculations.
The only thing I could estimate so far from the info in the ASG is the orbit period of Polyphemus: ~490 days
Orbital radius\
msg=86034 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 07:23:23 | u=1120
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
roger
We do have the film to give us some idea. Polyphemus looms larger in the Pandoran sky than Saturn does in Titan, though both planets are of approximately the same size. But Polyphemus is more massive, so from both clues the Pandoran orbit should be shorter than Titans, which is two weeks. (Except that Titan is tidally locked.)
msg=86070 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 08:20:24 | u=73
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Prrton
[quote author=Mithcoriel link=topic=3439.msg83516#msg83516 date=1265588254]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg70762#msg70762 date=1265059506]
Fì'uri nìfrau sweya kawngunil oeyä längu nìwotx! Oeyä elturi teriholpxay ke lu tìsìlpey nìngay nìwotx. Kxawm txo fya'o a tsun rel sivi nìholpxay ke livu tengfya fya'o nìkll nìvomun ha oer tìtsun tlsivam KWAWM kop ziyeva'u. Slä, nìngay nìteng 'it'evi slolu oe. Tìngay awngar lu holpxay nìwotx ta K. Pawl a fìtxeleri oeru prrte' leiu nìhawng, slä sngusä'iset zene nivume! Eywa oehu! :'(
[/quote]
Any chance you could translate that? I'm sure there are some Navi-newbies who are curious what you said, at least I am. ^^
[/quote]
This is in every way my *best* nightmare. When it comes to numbers my brain is hopeless. Perhaps if the way of representing them visually is not like base 10 then MAYBE some way for me to grok it will come. But, truly I am transformed into a tiny child (actually should now be « prrnen » and not « 'it'evi »). I'm too thrilled at the reality of having all the numbers from K. Paul, but now I have to learn them! May Eywa be with me! :'(
msg=86074 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 08:35:49 | u=54
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tiger
Oel ke fpìl futa ngal kayin zìsìtit apxevomrr.
msg=86420 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 14:14:30 | u=1485
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Erimeyz
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg86070#msg86070 date=1265703624]
When it comes to numbers my brain is hopeless. Perhaps if the way of representing them visually is not like base 10 then MAYBE some way for me to grok it will come.
[/quote]
Don't think of them as numbers. Think of them as fingers, and don't include your thumbs.
Remember "this little piggy went to market, this little piggy stayed home" etc? Well, look at your hands, and tell yourself that the name of the first little piggy is 'aw, the next little piggy's name is mune, the next little piggy's name is pxey, etc. The last piggy's name is vol, and he's special, because he represents the entire set of piggies.
Then learn to count in Na'vi by putting together sets of piggies.
- How many eggs are there in a standard carton? One set of hands, plus four. Vol + tsìng = vosìng (okay, so there's some elision and lenition going on here too, but you should be used to that by now).
- What's the legal drinking age in most of the U.S. (i.e. how many years)? Two sets of hands, plus five. Mune * vol = mevol; mevol + mrr = mevomrr.
- What (used to be) the speed limit on most highways in miles per hour? Six sets of hands, plus seven. Pukap * vol = puvol; puvol + kinä = puvohin.
Going the other direction, where you read or hear a Na'vi number and need to understand what it means is even easier:
- pukap: the sixth little piggy. He's got kind of a funny name, but he just goes by "pu" in the longer forms (with lenition, of course).
- tsìvofu: four sets of hands, plus six.
- puvopey: six sets of hands, plus three.
The difficult part is converting numbers between base ten and base eight. SO DON'T DO THAT. Count in Na'vi instead. Think in Na'vi. Use your fingers... that's essentially what the Na'vi do, after all, except that they get to include their thumbs. :)
- Eri
msg=86805 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 16:53:11 | u=631
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]I don't know the uvan of piggy counting but that was funny ;D And I think I even got the concept :P
msg=86932 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 17:46:56 | u=2788
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3439.msg86074#msg86074 date=1265704549]
Oel ke fpìl kea futa ngal kayin zìsìtit apxevomrr.
[/quote]
Just thought I'd mention that with futa, the negative concord seems not to be upheld, as per:
Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na'vi set fìfya pivlltxe!
msg=87385 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 21:39:43 | u=54
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tiger
Irayo si, oe ke tìng nari tìkenongur a krr oel plltxe fì'ut.
Eyawr soli!
msg=87661 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:08:51 | u=73
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Prrton
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3439.msg86420#msg86420 date=1265724870]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg86070#msg86070 date=1265703624]
When it comes to numbers my brain is hopeless. Perhaps if the way of representing them visually is not like base 10 then MAYBE some way for me to grok it will come.
[/quote]
Don't think of them as numbers. Think of them as fingers, and don't include your thumbs.
Remember "this little piggy went to market, this little piggy stayed home" etc? Well, look at your hands, and tell yourself that the name of the first little piggy is 'aw, the next little piggy's name is mune, the next little piggy's name is pxey, etc. The last piggy's name is vol, and he's special, because he represents the entire set of piggies.
Then learn to count in Na'vi by putting together sets of piggies.
- How many eggs are there in a standard carton? One set of hands, plus four. Vol + tsìng = vosìng (okay, so there's some elision and lenition going on here too, but you should be used to that by now).
- What's the legal drinking age in most of the U.S. (i.e. how many years)? Two sets of hands, plus five. Mune * vol = mevol; mevol + mrr = mevomrr.
- What (used to be) the speed limit on most highways in miles per hour? Six sets of hands, plus seven. Pukap * vol = puvol; puvol + kinä = puvohin.
Going the other direction, where you read or hear a Na'vi number and need to understand what it means is even easier:
- pukap: the sixth little piggy. He's got kind of a funny name, but he just goes by "pu" in the longer forms (with lenition, of course).
- tsìvofu: four sets of hands, plus six.
- puvopey: six sets of hands, plus three.
The difficult part is converting numbers between base ten and base eight. SO DON'T DO THAT. Count in Na'vi instead. Think in Na'vi. Use your fingers... that's essentially what the Na'vi do, after all, except that they get to include their thumbs. :)
- Eri
[/quote]
This is wonderful and I'll use it, but ultimately the thing that I'm whining about IS CONVERSION during an interpretation process (whether that's 'quiet' in my head, or needs to spew fluently out of my mouth). I've also come up with my OWN symbols (as alternates to your brilliant piggies) and may be able to see them interact with each other in my head (less embarrassingly than needing to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisanbop]
chisanbop[/url]
leNa'vi with my pinkies tucked in every time a number comes up. Which I'm still willing to do in a pinch ;) ). Time will tell...
I KNOW this is a challenge for me because I struggle (always) with any number in Japanese over 10 million. And [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals#Large_numbers]万[/url] as a complicating factor PALES in comparison to the octal approach. ;)
_____________
msg=87665 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:12:06 | u=21
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
wm.annis
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg87661#msg87661 date=1265760531](less embarrassingly than needing to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisanbop]chisanbop[/url] leNa'vi with my pinkies tucked in every time a number comes up. [/quote]
Oh, wow. I learned chisanbop in junior high, and have made use of it ever since (excellent for computing domino scores). This is a brilliant adaptation!
msg=87706 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:40:44 | u=631
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Plumps83
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg87665#msg87665 date=1265760726]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg87661#msg87661 date=1265760531](less embarrassingly than needing to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisanbop]chisanbop[/url] leNa'vi with my pinkies tucked in every time a number comes up. [/quote]
Oh, wow. I learned chisanbop in junior high, and have made use of it ever since (excellent for computing domino scores). This is a brilliant adaptation![/quote]
[font=Garamond]I've never heard of that but I think it's quite amazing :) and am thinking whether one could adapt that for Na'vi - you can either leave out the little finger or the thumb completely (right would be 'aw to kinä; left would be all the vol, mevol...)
Just a wild idea :P
msg=87975 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 04:40:53 | u=1485
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Erimeyz
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3439.msg87661#msg87661 date=1265760531]
ultimately the thing that I'm whining about IS CONVERSION during an interpretation process
I KNOW this is a challenge for me because I struggle (always) with any number in Japanese over 10 million. And [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals#Large_numbers]万[/url] as a complicating factor PALES in comparison to the octal approach. ;)
[/quote]
You know, I thought about this very thing later on. I think the answer is probably pretty simple. But first, an important note for anyone reading the thread and thinking about Na'vi numbers as octal versus decimal:
DON'T.
In particular, don't fall into the trap of thinking "Well, mevomun is in base eight with two in the eights place and two in the ones place, so that's 22 octal, which is 18 decimal." Here's the thing: mevomun isn't 22 octal, because the Na'vi don't write their numbers down. "Mevomun" isn't anything but mevomun. Literally, mevomun means two eights and two. A human would have to translate that into one ten and eight, and if they were a toktor they might write it down as "18". But the written numerals are meaningless to the Na'vi, and not just because they're in human script or in base ten. Even if the human transcribed it as "22" in an attempt to capture the idea of "two (eights) and two", it still would be meaningless. We write transcriptions of the sounds of Na'vi words; we do not write the Na'vi language, because the Na'vi do not write.
You may think this is a trivial point. I maintain it is profound and deserving of further reflection.
Anyway, back to translating numbers. Here again, my advice is: DON'T. At least, not literally, not often. Why not? Because I sincerely doubt the Na'vi do an awful lot of counting.
Consider zamvolaw: octal 111, ( 1 * 64 ) + ( 1 * 8 ) + 1 = 73 decimal. I'd bet my next food ration that no Na'vi has ever said the word "zamvolaw" in his life. Why would he? What has he got to count that requires such range and precision? In fact, I'll bet the existence of words for non-approximate numbers higher than tsivol (four eights = 32 decimal) is a linguistic curiosity, something that technically any Na'vi could say and count to but practically nobody ever does except for some aylì'utseotu (word artists, poets) who are trying to make some crazy kind of point (you know how artists are).
So when your outpost commander tells you to tell the locals that he's got three hundred and fifty men waiting to come and bulldoze their sacred trees, don't bother converting it to 536 octal, because saying "mrrzam pxevofu" will only get you a funny look. Just say "pxezam". Three "hundred", and never mind that "hundred" really means "sixty-four", because both words really mean "more than you can easily count, but not so much that you'll get lost trying."
And if some goober scientist tells you to tell the Eyktan he needs to collect fifteen samples of tree sap, tell him "vol fu mevol". And if the goober scientist asks you what you said, tell him "ten or twenty". And if some idiot bureaucrat tells you to tell the tribe that their continued resistance is costing the company hundreds of thousands of dollars per day, just deck him and leave his sorry ass outside. Maybe give him a breather mask if you're feeling nice.
So. Think in Na'vi. Count in Na'vi. Don't count too much or too high, don't translate precisely, and don't allow the parties you are translating for to assume that their counterparty has implied or understood precision where no such implication or understanding exists.
- Eri
msg=87999 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 05:27:58 | u=2234
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tsu roen
FINALLY! Somebody who sees the bigger picture.
Na'vi are a stoneage culture and their need for counting is fairly limited. My guess is that in general 8 (all fingers of both hands) is the highest number used in daily life. Maybe 2 x 8 or 4 x 8 are used once in a while. And maybe if a Na'vi get's all silly (after too much Kava) he might count all the way up to 8 x 8.
But most likely anything above 2 x 8 is just "many"
msg=88124 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 08:03:20 | u=1120
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
roger
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3439.msg87975#msg87975 date=1265776853]
Here's the thing: mevomun isn't 22 octal, because the Na'vi don't write their numbers down.
[/quote]
I agree that it's unlikely the Na'vi would often count beyond mevol. In fact, is more or less says that in the SG. I was assuming this discussion was for humans who want to speak Na'vi, and many of them will want to be able to use larger numbers, just as they want to be able to write it despite the "fact" that the Na'vi don't.
Nonetheless, mevomun is octal. Whether it's written is irrelevant: it's a base 8 number system. Our decimal written number system merely reflects the fact that our spoken system is decimal. The Na'vi even went so far, when they extended their system, to create a new unit, zam, for *vovol, which clinches it as an octal system.
msg=88134 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 08:22:15 | u=2234
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tsu roen
[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg88124#msg88124 date=1265789000]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3439.msg87975#msg87975 date=1265776853]
Here's the thing: mevomun isn't 22 octal, because the Na'vi don't write their numbers down.
[/quote]... I was assuming this discussion was for humans who want to speak Na'vi, and many of them will want to be able to use larger numbers, just as they want to be able to write it despite the "fact" that the Na'vi don't. ...[/quote]
Hmm ... if a Na'vi can't make sense of it it's pretty much pointless using it.
In that case you may as well use the decimal system with English names for the numbers and save yourself a lot of hassle and funny looks from the locals.
msg=88597 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 14:56:48 | u=1485
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Erimeyz
[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg88124#msg88124 date=1265789000]
I was assuming this discussion was for humans who want to speak Na'vi, and many of them will want to be able to use larger numbers, just as they want to be able to write it despite the "fact" that the Na'vi don't.
[/quote]
That's true, and a valid point. However, my advice to those humans (and it really is nothing more than my advice) is still: don't do it. This is obviously a philosophical matter (or possibly religious), but in my view, using large numbers in Na'vi is like translating a mechanic's auto repair manual into Na'vi; it may be possible, but why would you want to? That's not what the language is for. Unlike natural languages, Na'vi was created for a purpose; it fulfills that purpose very well, and does poorly elsewise. To me, using Na'vi outside of its intended context is an aesthetic train wreck, and I'm inclined to avoid it.
Na'vi is a bit different than Klingon in that regard. Klingon had words for transporter and warp drive and so forth, but not "table". That's because, like Frommer, Okrand only created vocabulary as needed for the scripts. But Klingons are a modern culture (futuristic, even... "postmodern"? but I digress) and would be expected to have words for everything we 21st century humans want to talk about, even if nobody's gotten around to actually inventing those words yet. Na'vi, on the other hand, is limited both by Frommer's capacity for word creation and the constraints of their fictional culture. There's never going to be a Na'vi word for "computer", or "book", or "wheel", nor should there be. And while we can use loan words, at some point you've got to ask yourself - if all your conversations are peppered with all these English words... why aren't you just speaking English?
Large, precise numbers fall into the same category for me. Yes, the Na'vi could use them, but they almost certainly don't. Why would you?
(Again, just my viewpoint, and if anyone sees it differently, well, that's fine by me, and I'd love to hear about it.)
- Eri
msg=91994 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 02:33:09 | u=3998
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Txuna Swizaw
[quote author=Nayumeie link=topic=3439.msg67190#msg67190 date=1264914975]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg67143#msg67143 date=1264909045]Words for "first" are strange in many, many languages, so I don't know if we can extend the use of -ve this way.
[/quote]
I don't know. Na'vi seems remarkably regular thus far. No irregular verbs, no funky pluralizations (cf. English man/men), etc.
[/quote]
you could consider lenition funky plurals i supose.
msg=92166 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 06:02:13 | u=1324
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Txur Taronyu
It's great to see that Frommer cares about the 3,000+ members of LearnNavi. Knowing that when something "erupts" in the language, we'll know almost instantly.
msg=92294 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 08:57:05 | u=2234
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Tsu roen
[quote author=Nayumeie link=topic=3439.msg67190#msg67190 date=1264914975]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3439.msg67143#msg67143 date=1264909045]Words for "first" are strange in many, many languages, so I don't know if we can extend the use of -ve this way.
[/quote]
I don't know. Na'vi seems remarkably regular thus far. No irregular verbs, no funky pluralizations (cf. English man/men), etc.
[/quote]
Well English isn't a "normal" language - in fact it's the most screwed up language I know of. It started by merging the languages of the Angles and Saxons that [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_invasion]invaded and occupied Britain[/url] after the Roman retreat. Their resulting language was [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English]Anglo-Saxon[/url], a Germanic language with some [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse]Norse[/url] influences.
Then in 1066 came with the Norman invasion [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language]Anglo-Norman[/url] (a French dialect) and with it some Latin into the mix.
To make the mix-up complete the English language was fixed in it's written form during the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift]great vowel shift[/url]. That is the reason that an English vowel is in general pretty variable in it's pronunciation depending in which word it is used.
msg=92883 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 17:29:41 | u=699
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Doryban
Maybe 66 (octal 102) would be "Zam sì mune"? That would make a whole lot of sense.
msg=95118 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-13 22:11:59 | u=195
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
esoanem
Frommer has given us the rules for large numbers. 66dec (102oct) is zamun.
Or were you refering to the etymological form (in which case you're probably correct).
msg=108405 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 11:24:13 | u=1990
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
pnz_punisher
Why is this number generator Navi does not work in Internet Explorer?
(Translated into English by google translator)
msg=108544 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 13:21:36 | u=1120
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
roger
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg95118#msg95118 date=1266099119]
Frommer has given us the rules for large number. 66dec (102oct) is zamun.
[/quote]
Where was that? I must have missed it.
msg=110162 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 17:46:02 | u=195
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
esoanem
Read the OP. ;)
[desc=66 (dec)]102[/desc] = [desc=64 (dec)]100[/desc] + [desc=2 (dec)]2[/desc]
[desc=64 (dec)]100[/desc] = zam
2 (when combining) = -mun
zam-mun -> zamun
msg=110869 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 23:54:43 | u=1120
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
roger
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg110162#msg110162 date=1266860762]
Read the OP. ;)
[/quote]
Sorry, what's the OP? Online Post? He didn't cover numbers between zam and mezam. We're only assuming they are each a single word; AFAIK Frommer himself has not said that.
msg=111008 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 01:41:56 | u=2
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
snowyfox
[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg110869#msg110869 date=1266882883]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg110162#msg110162 date=1266860762]
Read the OP. ;)
[/quote]
Sorry, what's the OP? Online Post? He didn't cover numbers between zam and mezam. We're only assuming they are each a single word; AFAIK Frommer himself has not said that.
[/quote]
OP stands for Original Post, or the first item on page 1 of this thread.
msg=112035 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 19:24:42 | u=195
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
esoanem
[quote author=roger link=topic=3439.msg110869#msg110869 date=1266882883]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3439.msg110162#msg110162 date=1266860762]
Read the OP. ;)
[/quote]
Sorry, what's the OP? Online Post? He didn't cover numbers between zam and mezam. We're only assuming they are each a single word; AFAIK Frommer himself has not said that.
[/quote]
That's a point. The table is only derived using a tiny bit of extrapolation though and is almost certainly OK.
msg=115124 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-25 07:28:22 | u=3277
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
KameSeze
I thought I'd start out in an easy area and learn counting to 10. OY! Was I WRONG! This is probably the most complicated thread I've ever read. I just have to say here, to all of you who understand it, WOW! You are amazing. :)
msg=115813 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-02-25 18:41:04 | u=0
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
jasgor9
Sweet! (starts memorizing) lol. ;D. Irayo tsmukan!
msg=150962 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 00:07:45 | u=3300
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
redes1
please can someone please tell me how the number chart works ???
msg=150994 | topic=3439 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 01:12:58 | u=0
Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=redes1 link=topic=3439.msg150962#msg150962 date=1269043665]
please can someone please tell me how the number chart works ???
[/quote]
You have the "whole" numbers like, pukap (6). When attaching to numbers like vol (Eight/Octal 10) or zam (100/Octal 64), pukap shortens to pu-; is puvol (60/Octal 48). To lenited -fu after vol, vofu (would be 16/Octal 14), zam, za(m)fu (would be 106/Octal 70).
msg=67194 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 05:19:13 | u=2325
Another email from Frommer
suomichris
Sorry if someone else started a thread for this email already; I didn't see one. This email was actually a response to someone else's question, but it looks like it got CC'd to several folks who had asked similar things. Here 'tis:
[quote]Ngeyä txantsana tìpawmìri ngaru seiyi oe irayo.
[txantsan = excellent]
A number of people have asked about this, so let me explain:
There's a small class of "fused" infixes that combine the common -iv- subjunctive/dependent verb infix with those that indicate tense and aspect. It goes like this:
PRESENT IMPERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + IMPERFECT -er- --> -irv-
PRESENT PERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + PERFECT -ol- --> -ilv-
PAST SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + PAST PROXIMATE -ìm- or PAST GENERAL -am- --> -imv-
I think you can see what's happening here: the CONSONANT of the tense or aspect infix is shoved into the middle of the -iv- infix--an infix in an infix, if you will.
With the future subjunctive, there's a slight complication:
FUTURE SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + FUTURE PROXIMATE -ìy- or FUTURE GENERAL -ay- --> *-iyv-
The problem is that although a syllable can end with r, l, or m, it can't end with y (unless it's part of a diphthong, which iy is not). That would violate the phonotactic constraints of Na'vi. So an epenthetic vowel comes to the rescue: -iyev-
An alternate form of this fused infix has arisen: -ìyev-. As an instance of vowel harmony (rare in Na'vi), the high front tense vowel i has become lax (ì) under the influence of the lax vowel e in the following syllable. Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable.
So that's a very long-winded explanation of why Kìyevame means: "May (we) See (each other again) in the future."
Sìlpey oe, oeyä tì'eyng law livu ngar!
msg=67196 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 05:23:34 | u=2239
Re: Another email from Frommer
TorukMakto!
Irayo!
I guess this is the only way to get more info and insight of the language due to Fox limtations.
Dr. Fommer seems like a nice person, I'd say keep on sending those insightful emails with question and little by little get re knowledge of the language.
msg=67623 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:09:39 | u=1485
Re: Another email from Frommer
Erimeyz
Awesome, thanks for sharing! Added to the Canon: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Fused_-iv-_Infixes]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Fused_-iv-_Infixes[/url]
- Eri
msg=67648 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:17:39 | u=2873
Re: Another email from Frommer
Skyinou
That's great!
We just need to know about PAST/FUTUR + PERFECTIVE now
And triple infixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example? ;D
Thanks for the mail!
msg=67670 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:25:32 | u=2104
Re: Another email from Frommer
Mirri
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg67194#msg67194 date=1264915153]
The problem is that although a syllable can end with r, l, or m, it can't end with y (unless it's part of a diphthong, which iy is not). That would violate the phonotactic constraints of Na'vi. So an epenthetic vowel comes to the rescue: -iyev-
An alternate form of this fused infix has arisen: -ìyev-. As an instance of vowel harmony (rare in Na'vi), the high front tense vowel i has become lax (ì) under the influence of the lax vowel e in the following syllable. Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable.
[/quote]
Ouch x.x
I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."
msg=67672 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:25:47 | u=21
Re: Another email from Frommer
wm.annis
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3448.msg67648#msg67648 date=1264943859]
And triple inixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example? ;D[/quote]
Oh, good. I'm glad I'm not the only person who went from "yay! an Epistle from Frommer" immediately to "wait, what's a future perfective subjunctive going to be?"
msg=67684 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 13:29:43 | u=21
Re: Another email from Frommer
wm.annis
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3448.msg67670#msg67670 date=1264944332]I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."[/quote]
Tsa'u nìlaw lam — that seems clear.
msg=68064 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 16:19:37 | u=3041
Re: Another email from Frommer
DrBinder
Well, I'm glad this got cleared up.
msg=68133 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 17:04:02 | u=2325
Re: Another email from Frommer
suomichris
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3448.msg67670#msg67670 date=1264944332]I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."[/quote]Yup, he cleared that up in an email this morning. Here's the text:
[quote]Ma oeyä eylan,
Tsapalute, mì upxare a fpole oel ayngaru trram lu kxeyey:
KEYAWR:
Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable
EYAWR:
Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable
Irayo eylanur awngeyä Prrton a kxeyeyti rolun.[/quote]
msg=68136 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 17:05:23 | u=2325
Re: Another email from Frommer
suomichris
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3448.msg67648#msg67648 date=1264943859]
That's great!
We just need to know about PAST/FUTUR + PERFECTIVE now
And triple infixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example? ;D
Thanks for the mail!
[/quote]He does say that there are a "small number" of fused ones, so I wonder if most of the others won't just be one infix after another?
msg=68174 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 17:18:52 | u=2788
Re: Another email from Frommer
Lance R. Casey
[quote]Ma oeyä eylan,
Tsap'alute, mì upxare a fpole' oel ayngaru trram lu kxeyey:
KEYAWR:
Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable
EYAWR:
Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable
Irayo 'eylanur awngeyä Prrton a kxeyeyti rolun.[/quote]
Hey, new words?
? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify
Or something like that?
msg=68182 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 17:20:08 | u=2325
Re: Another email from Frommer
suomichris
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3448.msg68174#msg68174 date=1264958332]Hey, new words?
? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify
Or something like that?
[/quote]Looks like. Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p
msg=68276 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 18:11:47 | u=2239
Re: Another email from Frommer
TorukMakto!
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68182#msg68182 date=1264958408]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3448.msg68174#msg68174 date=1264958332]Hey, new words?
? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify
Or something like that?
[/quote]Looks like. Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p
[/quote]
What is your guess about the translation of those new words?
msg=68278 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 18:14:50 | u=2325
Re: Another email from Frommer
suomichris
[quote author=TorukMakto! link=topic=3448.msg68276#msg68276 date=1264961507]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68182#msg68182 date=1264958408]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3448.msg68174#msg68174 date=1264958332]Hey, new words?
? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify
Or something like that?
[/quote]Looks like. Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p
[/quote]
What is your guess about the translation of those new words?
[/quote]Well, eyawr certainly looks like correct. run, though, could be any number of things, I think: "find, notice, point out, correct, etc." Hard to say without a translation/context. I am kind of hoping it's "find," since that would be a great word to have!
msg=68282 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 18:16:34 | u=664
Re: Another email from Frommer
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68278#msg68278 date=1264961690]
[quote author=TorukMakto! link=topic=3448.msg68276#msg68276 date=1264961507]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68182#msg68182 date=1264958408]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3448.msg68174#msg68174 date=1264958332]Hey, new words?
? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify
Or something like that?
[/quote]Looks like. Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p
[/quote]
What is your guess about the translation of those new words?
[/quote]Well, eyawr certainly looks like correct. run, though, could be any number of things, I think: "find, notice, point out, correct, etc." Hard to say without a translation/context. I am kind of hoping it's "find," since that would be a great word to have!
[/quote]
Finally we can stop misusing muiä!
-Keyl
msg=68387 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 19:07:42 | u=2325
Re: Another email from Frommer
suomichris
Just heard back from Frommer. run means "find, discover."
Yay a verb for "find"!!
msg=68740 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 21:09:28 | u=2104
Re: Another email from Frommer
Mirri
I didn't think it was worth bothering Frommer over something that was clearly a typo, but we got two new words out of it, so YAY! ;D
msg=69008 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-01-31 23:24:03 | u=430
Re: Another email from Frommer
TehMightyPirate
wow, this fills a big gap, awesome.
msg=69267 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:43:01 | u=73
Re: Another email from Frommer
Prrton
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68387#msg68387 date=1264964862]
Just heard back from Frommer. run means "find, discover."
Yay a verb for "find"!!
[/quote]
I was just about to double-check with him on run. I took it to mean "find" when I first saw it, but all of the other "options" were certainly valid ideas earlier in the thread today too. It makes sense to me as something as basic as "find" because it's so short and such a critical concept in any human language.
Trr aylrrtokä!
;D
__________________
msg=70228 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:15:57 | u=2104
Re: Another email from Frommer
Mirri
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3448.msg69267#msg69267 date=1264999381]
[quote author=suomichris link=topic=3448.msg68387#msg68387 date=1264964862]
Just heard back from Frommer. run means "find, discover."
Yay a verb for "find"!!
[/quote]
I was just about to double-check with him on run. I took it to mean "find" when I first saw it, but all of the other "options" were certainly valid ideas earlier in the thread today too. It makes sense to me as something as basic as "find" because it's so short and such a critical concept in any human language.
Trr aylrrtokä!
;D
__________________
[/quote]
Evidently a passionate conversation is not a very basic concept then, ftxavanga pängkxo.
msg=70460 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:05:08 | u=54
Re: Another email from Frommer
Tiger
By that measure, a passionate conversation is a more basic concept in Na'vi than it is in English. (5 syllables vs 6)
msg=70482 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:13:31 | u=2104
Re: Another email from Frommer
Mirri
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3448.msg70460#msg70460 date=1265051108]
By that measure, a passionate conversation is a more basic concept in Na'vi than it is in English. (5 syllables vs 6)
[/quote]
Passionate chat, then.
(how do you get 6 syllables out of the English one? pas-sion-ate con-ver-sa-tion is 7)
msg=70486 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:14:33 | u=54
Re: Another email from Frommer
Tiger
Because I can't count! I'm unedumicated.
msg=70539 | topic=3448 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:42:52 | u=2873
Re: Another email from Frommer
Skyinou
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3448.msg70228#msg70228 date=1265044557]
Evidently a passionate conversation is not a very basic concept then, ftxavanga pängkxo.
[/quote]
Well, you probably use passionate conversations often, but not "passionate conversation". ;D
msg=69233 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:17:36 | u=1011
Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Kiliyä
Ma ayeylan,
I was delighted this afternoon to receive a reply from Karyu Pawl to my e-mail regarding vocab for MND. Please find most of the reply below. Underlining is mind based on the notes that Pawl gave, since he was unable to underline them himself (due to software issues). I have assumed that syllables in words start with a consonant, and that -wrr is the syllable's boundry in mungwrr (from munge + wrrpa, "brought outside"?) rather than mu.ngwrr. Enjoy!
[quote author="Karyu Pawl"]Let me answer some of your [Midsummer Night's Dream] vocabulary questions:
sweet = kalin
tongue = ftxì
air = ya
bud = prrnesyul
prrnen = infant, baby
syulang = flower
So "bud" is an obvious compound. (Components are often truncated in Na'vi compounds.)
sick = spxin
disease = säspxin
the state of being ill = tìspxin
yet, still = mi
[A nice minimal pair: mì vs. mi]
except = mungwrr ADP- (that is, an adposition that doesn't trigger lenition)
game = uvan
to play = uvan si
metal (in general) = fngap
No words yet for horned, moon, favor, nor, judge/judgment. I'll be thinking about those. (I'm not sure if Pandora even has moons in its sky. Can you have a moon going around a moon?)
For "nor," you may be able to get around it by using "or" (fu) with a negative: to do neither A nor B is not to do A or B.
Hope that helps!
Feel free to share any of this...[/quote]
msg=69252 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:29:50 | u=1485
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Erimeyz
Forsooth! The Teacher sends a missive dear
And gives to us the words we fain would hear.
Kiliyä, wise and gracious, shared with all
The joyful answers from our teacher, Paul.
- Eri the Iambic
msg=69260 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:39:25 | u=1485
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Erimeyz
p.s. Added to the Canon: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Midsummer_Night.27s_Dream_Vocabulary]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Midsummer_Night.27s_Dream_Vocabulary[/url]
Thanks for sharing! And wow, this is cool!
- Eri
msg=69285 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 04:58:53 | u=465
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Hysvear
Awesome. I'm going to fix some of my sentences now XD.
msg=69654 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 12:30:51 | u=132
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Taronyu
Added to Dictionary, thanks towards you and Tikawnga mungeyu.
msg=69656 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 12:32:57 | u=1011
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Kiliyä
Nìtxan irayo ngaru, ma 'eylan (why do people use 'eylan more than tsmuk now...?). You are the one plugging away keeping everyone up to date!
msg=69856 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 14:49:17 | u=21
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
wm.annis
[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=3510.msg69233#msg69233 date=1264997856]sick = spxin
disease = säspxin
the state of being ill = tìspxin[/quote]
Ahah! Instrumental sä- is set free!
msg=69949 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:39:51 | u=430
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3510.msg69856#msg69856 date=1265035757]
[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=3510.msg69233#msg69233 date=1264997856]sick = spxin
disease = säspxin
the state of being ill = tìspxin[/quote]
Ahah! Instrumental sä- is set free!
[/quote]
In which way? This seems consistent with exactly what we knew before, a disease is the instrument by which you get sick. Or do you mean it's been set free from simply instructional uses (teachings)?
msg=69955 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:42:21 | u=21
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
wm.annis
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3510.msg69949#msg69949 date=1265038791]In which way? This seems consistent with exactly what we knew before, a disease is the instrument by which you get sick. Or do you mean it's been set free from simply instructional uses (teachings)?[/quote]
A single example of a lexical affix is not exactly something I want to rely on. Frommer himself said that he had [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#s.C3.A4-_Prefix]only one use[/url] of it when he mailed Taronyu not that long ago. Now we have two, so it's stretching its wings a bit.
msg=70473 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:09:30 | u=54
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Tiger
But the instrumental prefix brings up an interesting question, so to speak...
pawm - ask...
tìpawm - question?
or
säpawm - question?
Would the abstract concept of asking be a question, or would the instrument of asking be a question? I've seen several people use the former, but I tend to lean towards the latter.
msg=70506 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:25:05 | u=430
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3510.msg70473#msg70473 date=1265051370]
But the instrumental prefix brings up an interesting question, so to speak...
pawm - ask...
tìpawm - question?
or
säpawm - question?
Would the abstract concept of asking be a question, or would the instrument of asking be a question? I've seen several people use the former, but I tend to lean towards the latter.
[/quote]
Well, wouldn't "säpawm" technically just be "word" or "speech" since that's really what to use to "ask" something.
msg=70547 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:45:59 | u=2788
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3510.msg70473#msg70473 date=1265051370]
But the instrumental prefix brings up an interesting question, so to speak...
pawm - ask...
tìpawm - question?
or
säpawm - question?
Would the abstract concept of asking be a question, or would the instrument of asking be a question? I've seen several people use the former, but I tend to lean towards the latter.
[/quote]
Frommer uses the former:
Sìpawmìri oe ngaru seiyi irayo.
Thank you for the questions.
(from Jan 19 [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]email[/url])
msg=76914 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 19:42:10 | u=631
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Quick question about uvan si...
is that "to play a game, to play (as an actor), or to play an instrument"? How would you see that?
msg=76928 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 19:47:04 | u=2788
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Lance R. Casey
Seeing as how uvan is "game", uvan si would be "play a game". For the musical meaning, I'd expect pamtseo si.
msg=77868 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 10:41:04 | u=631
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Plumps83
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3510.msg76928#msg76928 date=1265312824]
Seeing as how uvan is "game", uvan si would be "play a game". For the musical meaning, I'd expect pamtseo si.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]So you'd say: *Oe pamtseo si hu i'en. ?
msg=77918 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 11:05:09 | u=2788
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Lance R. Casey
I'd use the instrumental (PNI) adposition fa.
msg=79472 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 23:58:44 | u=664
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3510.msg77868#msg77868 date=1265366464]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3510.msg76928#msg76928 date=1265312824]
Seeing as how uvan is "game", uvan si would be "play a game". For the musical meaning, I'd expect pamtseo si.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]So you'd say: *Oe pamtseo si hu i'en. ?
[/quote]
Probably *Oe pámtseo si fa i'en.
-Keyl
EDIT: For some reason I didn't see Lance's post... :o IGNORE ME!
msg=79494 | topic=3510 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 00:10:39 | u=631
Re: Midsummer Night's Dream vocab from Karyu atxantsan Pawl
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Irayo! :)
Tsa'u srung soli oeru.
msg=69552 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 11:06:28 | u=73
TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Prrton
Ta K. Pawl ne Prrton
[quote=Paul Frommer]As for "because":
Talun [[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-niaw/king-ayliuya-lehrrap/msg63233/#msg63233]ta tsmukan Skyinou[/url]] is almost exactly one of the words I came up with! I had come up with taluna, from ta + lun (reason) + a, in keeping with the idea that the clause following "because" is modifying the head noun lun, so that "a" is required. But I can see that over time the final a could drop . . . so I'm happy to parenthesize it in the glossary: talun(a).
There's a related word oeyk (2 syllables, stress on the 2nd) meaning 'cause.' The corresponding conjunction is taweyka (with the obvious small sound changes). And in keeping with the above argument, I'll go with taweyk(a).
So it's talun(a) or taweyk(a), which are pretty much synonyms. Take your pick!
By the way, a related word is tafral, meaning 'therefore, because of that.' (The derivation is probably pretty clear.) It's an adverb, unlike talun(a) and taweyk(a), which are conjunctions.
Perfect analysis of sìlpey, comparing it to ralpeng. Yup, that's it! [(tìlaw ta Prrton)meaning that they inflect on the verbal stems pey and peng and not on sìl- or ral-.]
And speaking of Neytiri's and Jake's eveng . . . and holpxay ayzekwäyä feyä . . . that's one for JC to figure out. <g>
hol = few.[/quote]
TAFRAL:
- TALUN(a) = "from (the) reason" >>> "becuase" (conj.)
- TAWEYK(a) = "based on (the) cause" >>> "because" (conj.)
- LUN = "reason" (noun)
- OEYK = "cause" (noun)
- HOLPXAY = "number" (noun)
- HOL = "few" (adj.)
- TAFRAL = "therefore, because of that" (adverb)
Rutxe, Frapo, tsmukan SKYINOUr IRAYO si ko!! ;D
Tewti, ko srak?
PS: From another mail: TXANTSAN = "excellent" (adj.), if you haven't seen it already.
msg=69644 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 12:15:48 | u=1120
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
roger
Thanks, Prrton!
Two questions: do we get atalun, ataweyk with the opposite clause order, or alunta, aweykta ?
Could oeyk be a derivation of eyk ?
msg=69969 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:51:56 | u=21
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
wm.annis
[quote author=roger link=topic=3529.msg69644#msg69644 date=1265026548]Two questions: do we get atalun, ataweyk with the opposite clause order, or alunta, aweykta ?[/quote]
I would expect alunta (< a lun-ta) and aweykta (< a oeyk-ta), on the suspicion that we can't wedge an adposition between a noun and the attributive marker.
msg=70137 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:49:03 | u=2211
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Txaklan
Every day something new! He's spoiling us!
msg=70226 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:15:12 | u=631
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]I just hope he doesn't get in trouble because of that ;)
What I find interesting is that we can actually see that Karyu Frommer has a lot he hasn't thought about yet and for me it's quite thrilling to see how he makes up a new word for us... or considers what we think about certain constructions and meanings of words.
You just feel that he wants to help us... :)
msg=70252 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:24:30 | u=2104
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Mirri
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70226#msg70226 date=1265044512]
You just feel that he wants to help us... :)
[/quote]
Of course he does, he's a teacher and over 3500 people signed the Free Na'vi petition.
When was the last time you had 3500 highly motivated students hanging on your every word? Tsa'u karyuyä unil lu ;)
msg=70278 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:31:01 | u=631
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Plumps83
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70252#msg70252 date=1265045070]
Of course he does, he's a teacher and over 3500 people signed the Free Na'vi petition.
When was the last time you had 3500 highly motivated students hanging on your every word? Tsa'u karyuyä unil lu ;)[/quote]
[font=Garamond]I'm just saying ;) Not everyone would react in that way, I guess. Not everyone would answer to hundreds of mails .... which problably ask for more or less the same things over and over again. It very much speaks for him! Ayoeyä Karyu :)
Ah, what we need is some kind of diminutive affix ... something parents would call their children and vise versa as a sign of affection and respect :)
msg=70282 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:31:20 | u=1571
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
AyekongAyauyä
I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?
msg=70305 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:43:03 | u=2104
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Mirri
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70278#msg70278 date=1265045461]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70252#msg70252 date=1265045070]
Of course he does, he's a teacher and over 3500 people signed the Free Na'vi petition.
When was the last time you had 3500 highly motivated students hanging on your every word? Tsa'u karyuyä unil lu ;)[/quote]
[font=Garamond]I'm just saying ;) Not everyone would react in that way, I guess. Not everyone would answer to hundreds of mails .... which problably ask for more or less the same things over and over again. It very much speaks for him! Ayoeyä Karyu :)
Ah, what we need is some kind of diminutive affix ... something parents would call their children and vise versa as a sign of affection and respect :)
[/quote]
Doesn't look like there's an affix that we know of yet, might not exist. But we've got the words for mommy, daddy, and kid, which are just cutified versions.
msg=70357 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:06:12 | u=631
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Plumps83
[quote author=AyekongAyauyä link=topic=3529.msg70282#msg70282 date=1265045480]
I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Not that we know of so far.
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70305#msg70305 date=1265046183]Doesn't look like there's an affix that we know of yet, might not exist. But we've got the words for mommy, daddy, and kid, which are just cutified versions.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]That's what I mean - there seem to be specific forms for these words. I was more aiming at an affix with which you could change every noun. Like there's a suffix -ín in Irish which makes teach (house) into teachaín (little house) or in German -lein and -chen which makes Kind (child, 'eveng) into Kindchen (little child, 'evi)
msg=70368 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:11:12 | u=2104
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Mirri
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70357#msg70357 date=1265047572]
[quote author=AyekongAyauyä link=topic=3529.msg70282#msg70282 date=1265045480]
I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Not that we know of so far.
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70305#msg70305 date=1265046183]Doesn't look like there's an affix that we know of yet, might not exist. But we've got the words for mommy, daddy, and kid, which are just cutified versions.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]That's what I mean - there seem to be specific forms for these words. I was more aiming at an affix with which you could change every noun. Like there's a suffix -ín in Irish which makes teach (house) into teachaín (little house) or in German -lein and -chen which makes Kind (child, 'eveng) into Kindchen (little child, 'evi)
[/quote]
Yes, but those affixes don't exist in a lot of other languages. So what you can do is like Na'vi is doing, which is cutify each individual word.
msg=70379 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:21:45 | u=631
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Yay, more to learn for us ;D
Nah, I get what you mean, Mirri - was just a wild idea that I had and thought would be cool if Na'vi had something like that.
Alright, back on topic...
msg=70447 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:59:42 | u=2788
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70357#msg70357 date=1265047572]
[quote author=AyekongAyauyä link=topic=3529.msg70282#msg70282 date=1265045480]
I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Not that we know of so far.
[/quote]
Given the versatility of the derivational affixes, *peweyk or *oeykpe are likely to be understood, but whether they're to be found in the Frommerian vocabulary is another matter. ;)
msg=70666 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 20:39:43 | u=73
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Prrton
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70368#msg70368 date=1265047872]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3529.msg70357#msg70357 date=1265047572]
[quote author=AyekongAyauyä link=topic=3529.msg70282#msg70282 date=1265045480]
I like that there are two forms of "because", one for objective cause and effect, and one for subjective intention. It makes me wonder, though: is there a corresponding objective "cause" version of "why" that's based on oeyk?[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Not that we know of so far.
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=3529.msg70305#msg70305 date=1265046183]Doesn't look like there's an affix that we know of yet, might not exist. But we've got the words for mommy, daddy, and kid, which are just cutified versions.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]That's what I mean - there seem to be specific forms for these words. I was more aiming at an affix with which you could change every noun. Like there's a suffix -ín in Irish which makes teach (house) into teachaín (little house) or in German -lein and -chen which makes Kind (child, 'eveng) into Kindchen (little child, 'evi)
[/quote]
Yes, but those affixes don't exist in a lot of other languages. So what you can do is like Na'vi is doing, which is cutify each individual word.
[/quote]
Rutxe tìng nari ne [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/diminutive-name-framework-proposal/]fìkìng[/url]
__________________________
msg=70970 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 23:23:43 | u=1485
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
Erimeyz
Added to the Canon by wm.annis: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Some_Conjunctions_and_Adverbs]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Some_Conjunctions_and_Adverbs[/url]
Prrton, thanks for sharing this! Wm, thanks for documenting it!
- Eri
msg=71218 | topic=3529 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:50:38 | u=1120
Re: TALUN • TAWEYK • TAFRAL • LUN • OEYK • HOLPXAY • HOL
roger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3529.msg69969#msg69969 date=1265039516]
[quote author=roger link=topic=3529.msg69644#msg69644 date=1265026548]Two questions: do we get atalun, ataweyk with the opposite clause order, or alunta, aweykta ?[/quote]
I would expect alunta (< a lun-ta) and aweykta (< a oeyk-ta), on the suspicion that we can't wedge an adposition between a noun and the attributive marker.
[/quote]
The first of these is confirmed. I posted on the dictionary thread.
msg=69919 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:25:02 | u=401
nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)
Harìghawnu
In Frommer's Lemondrop interview there is the sentence:
Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Vitrautral.
There's nobody I'd rather commune with under the Tree of Souls.
Was the contracted "nulnivew" intended by Frommer, or is it a formatting mistake (deleting a space character)?
I mean, it is obvious, that this form consists out of "nul" (which seems to be something like a comparative maker, considering the "nulkrr - longer (time)" given in the ASG) and "new" (want).
But is it really intended to be one (compounded) word? If the answer is "yes", that would be interesting, because the subjunctive-infix is inserted into the stem of the verbal part of this compound, while "nul" is treated like a prefix. So far I didn't see verbs of this kind in the corpus.
"tireapivängkxo" seems to be a related thing.
msg=69948 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 15:38:59 | u=21
Re: nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)
wm.annis
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=3552.msg69919#msg69919 date=1265037902]So far I didn't see verbs of this kind in the corpus.[/quote]
It occurs in the [url=http://www.lingweenie.org/docs/proleg.pdf]hunt song[/url] in the ASG. The compound yom-tìng is given the proximal future yomtìyìng.
msg=69993 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:04:20 | u=401
Re: nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)
Harìghawnu
Yes, but in this case both parts are verbs in itself.
But what's about "nul"?
msg=70021 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:17:33 | u=21
Re: nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)
wm.annis
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=3552.msg69993#msg69993 date=1265040260]
Yes, but in this case both parts are verbs in itself.
But what's about "nul"? [/quote]
Why would the type of the first element in a verb compound matter for this?
msg=70042 | topic=3552 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:23:38 | u=401
Re: nulnivew (Lemondrop-Sentence)
Harìghawnu
Ok. I see, that this would not matter really much.
msg=69990 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 16:03:00 | u=4
Art related Vocab
zombat
Been in communication with Pawl myself, I figured I'd add these to this area.
[quote=Pawl]
Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan!
[fwa = fì'u a
rel = image, picture
reltseo = visual art
law = clear][/quote]
[quote=Pawl]Ma Pìraysì,
Tewti!!!
Rel oeyä na uniltìranyu lor lu nìngay! Reltseotu atxantsan lu nga!
[reltseotu = artist
txantsan = excellent]
[/quote]
New Vocab:
Fwa = That Which
Rel = Image, Picture
Reltseo = Visual Art
Reltseotu = Artist
What I find interesting is the use of -tu instead of -yu on reltseotu. My assumption here is that if -yu is "verb-er" than -tu is "verb-ist" I'll be asking him about that and will hopefully have some clarification.
msg=70211 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:11:14 | u=417
Re: Art related Vocab
Alìm Tsamsiyu
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg69990#msg69990 date=1265040180]
New Vocab:
Fwa = That Which
Rel = Image, Picture
Reltseo = Visual Art
Reltesotu = Artist
What I find interesting is the use of -tu instead of -yu on reltseotu. My assumption here is that if -yu is "verb-er" than -tu is "verb-ist" I'll be asking him about that and will hopefully have some clarification.
[/quote]
Got a typo there :)
Also - wouldn't "Reltseo" be a noun, in which case -tu might be used on nouns rather than verbs. However, I think your deduction is more correct, since "tu" seems to be related to people, meaning the "-ist" analogy is probably more likely.
msg=70244 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 17:20:33 | u=631
Re: Art related Vocab
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]spe'e is a verb and there we have the form spe'etu
Maybe it can be used for both verb and noun
msg=70419 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 18:50:44 | u=417
Re: Art related Vocab
Alìm Tsamsiyu
Yeah, I'm not sure really what the difference is between -yu and -tu, other than -er and -ist in English, which seems to be the best analogy so far.
With your spe'etu example, however, the analogy breaks down. Spe'etu isn't a "capturist" it's a captive, someone who has been captured.
It makes more sense with nouns, since in English that seems to be when the "-ist" suffix is applied (motorist, artist, pianist, violinist). In English one could be an art-ist (noun-ist) and a paint-er (verb-er [probably a bad example, since paint is also a noun xD]).
Perhaps when "-tu" is added to a verb, it refers to the person/people commonly linked to such a verb, meaning it would be a somewhat rare occurance, where instead of meaning "One who <verbs>" it means "One who is <verb>ed." Maybe with a word like tspang (to kill) you have tspangyu (killer) and perhaps tspangtu (homicide victim/kill) i.e.: "Hey, he was my kill!" | "Nang poan oeyä tspangtu lìmu!"
Not sure on this... but that's my 2¢.
msg=70474 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:09:59 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3553.msg70419#msg70419 date=1265050244]
It makes more sense with nouns, since in English that seems to be when the "-ist" suffix is applied (motorist, artist, pianist, violinist). In English one could be an art-ist (noun-ist) and a paint-er (verb-er [probably a bad example, since paint is also a noun xD]).
[/quote]
Pretty sure there's actually no real rule for the choice of -er and -ist in English, just trends. You could spend all day listing examples... but I'll give two of my favourites. Builder - nice... verb+er = sorted! Roofer - noun+er awwww crap!!! ;)
However, that doesn't mean you not right about Na'vi.
Edit: Ok, I remember someone once saying that -ist came from Greek and so the choice was perhaps (a long time ago) based upon where the word in question originated from. In modern English, with "recently" created terms, I suspect this theory is now quite worthless in application. :)
msg=70508 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:25:07 | u=417
Re: Art related Vocab
Alìm Tsamsiyu
Ehhh - Roofer is a little bit of a stretch, "roof" can be used as a verb, a definition attested in many dictionaries as "to cover a building with a roof."
i.e.: "We're going to re-roof our house." "We chose to roof our house with metal roofing" (Heh, multiple uses!)
msg=70526 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:35:49 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3553.msg70508#msg70508 date=1265052307]
Ehhh - Roofer is a little bit of a stretch, "roof" can be used as a verb, a definition attested in many dictionaries as "to cover a building with a roof."
[/quote]
True... but it's from Old English hrof - a noun.
As to what came first, roofer or to roof, I have no idea. :D
I suspect -ist is more regular in it's application since all the big "ists" tend to be medical/science terms which were taken from Greek nouns anyway.
msg=70529 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:37:41 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3553.msg70508#msg70508 date=1265052307]
We chose to roof our house with metal roofing" (Heh, multiple uses!)
[/quote]
How about
"Our roofer chose to roof his house with metal roofing".
Roof + 1. :D
msg=70544 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:45:28 | u=54
Re: Art related Vocab
Tiger
Our dog went "roof" when the roofer tried to roof our house with metal roofing so we slipped him a rufie.
msg=70553 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:48:20 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3553.msg70544#msg70544 date=1265053528]
Our dog went "roof" when the roofer tried to roof our house with metal roofing so we slipped him a rufie.
[/quote]
...
Surely that's unbeatable!?!
Er... I think we're getting well off-topic here mind. :D
msg=70560 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:51:13 | u=54
Re: Art related Vocab
Tiger
We're just being lelì'utseo (Poetic - deriving lì'utseo as word-art/poetry).
msg=70561 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:51:24 | u=401
Re: Art related Vocab
Harìghawnu
???
[quote]Ma Pawl[/quote]
I guess, you mean Dr. Frommer. But what about the "Ma"?
Since you don't speak to him directly here, the vocative doesn't make sense, does it?
Besides that: Thank you for the words!
msg=70565 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 19:52:30 | u=54
Re: Art related Vocab
Tiger
We don't call him skxawng because he's clever with the language....
;D
msg=70585 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 20:02:53 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
Actually Alim, I'm going to somewhat change my mind on all this -er stuff... since just about every use of -er to refer to someone (who conducts or is interested in) that I can think of has it's root in a word attested in modernish English as both a noun and a verb (or in some cases just a verb).
It's just not a helpful language here - we seem to create verb forms for everything. :D Edit: Including to motor.
Now that I think about, the irregularites are more towards the use of -ist with more modern terms. But that one is understandable.
msg=70661 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 20:37:24 | u=4
Re: Art related Vocab
zombat
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3553.msg70565#msg70565 date=1265053950]
We don't call him skxawng because he's clever with the language....
;D
[/quote]
lol up yours ;D
Also I had the notion that perhaps -tu is similar to -ru and-ur, in that perhaps -tu is used when the last letter in a word is a vowel, instead of consonant.
hopefully we'll have clarification soon
msg=70831 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 21:55:44 | u=54
Re: Art related Vocab
Tiger
Taronyu - hunter
Tsamsiyu - warrior
One follows a consonant the other a vowel.
msg=70915 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:47:49 | u=73
Re: Art related Vocab
Prrton
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg69990#msg69990 date=1265040180]
Been in communication with Pawl myself, I figured I'd add these to this area.
[quote=Pawl]
Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan!
fwa = fì'u a
[/quote]
New Vocab:
Fwa = That Which
[/quote]
Rutxe, awngur wìntu sìknongit tsa'lì'uyä san« fwa »sìk mìlì'olo hu aylì'u alahe sì tìralpeng.
tKNg: San« Oe *pxiset new ivomum *terifwa nga trram ftxamey »sìkìri eyawr lu ke srak?
e.g: Is "I want to know *right-now *about-that-which (="what") you selected yesterday" correct or not?
IRAYO!
msg=70935 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:59:51 | u=417
Re: Art related Vocab
Alìm Tsamsiyu
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3553.msg70915#msg70915 date=1265064469]
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg69990#msg69990 date=1265040180]
Been in communication with Pawl myself, I figured I'd add these to this area.
[quote=Pawl]
Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan!
fwa = fì'u a
[/quote]
New Vocab:
Fwa = That Which
[/quote]
Rutxe, awngur wìntu sìknongit tsa'lì'uyä san« fwa »sìk mìlì'olo hu aylì'u alahe sì tìralpeng.
tKNg: San« Oe *pxiset new ivomum *terifwa nga trram ftxamey »sìkìri eyawr lu ke srak?
e.g: Is "I want to know *right-now *about-that-which (="what") you selected yesterday" correct or not?
IRAYO!
[/quote]
Oel tse'eia, fa oeyä nari ahì'i, me-t(x)aypot! :)
I spy, with my little eye, some typos!
Anyway - yeah it'd be nice if we had some more examples.. or should I say, exaples? exmples? xD
msg=71207 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:40:14 | u=4
Re: Art related Vocab
zombat
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3553.msg70915#msg70915 date=1265064469]
Rutxe, awngur wìntu sìknongit tsa'lì'uyä san« fwa »sìk mìlì'olo hu aylì'u alahe sì tìralpeng.
tKNg: San« Oe *pxiset new ivomum *terifwa nga trram ftxamey »sìkìri eyawr lu ke srak?
e.g: Is "I want to know *right-now *about-that-which (="what") you selected yesterday" correct or not?
IRAYO!
[/quote]
ke lu oeru kea aysìknongit alahe ftu fromrr, oe letsap'alute lu!
msg=71311 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:56:50 | u=1485
Re: Art related Vocab
Erimeyz
Canonificationized! [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Art-related_Vocabulary]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Art-related_Vocabulary[/url]
Art good. Me like. Make happy.
- Eri
msg=71330 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:07:36 | u=1485
Re: Art related Vocab
Erimeyz
Regarding -tu vs. -yu.... I like the implication of taronyu one who does hunting "hunter", spe'etu one whom capture is done to "captive".
Where does that leave reltseotu? Reltseo-tu one whom visual art is done to "artist". The implication being that in Na'vi, one does not "make" art... art is something that happens to you, i.e. you are inspired and moved by a creative spirit, the resulting artwork being almost an incidental by-product.
Just my two cents. Almost certainly wrong. But fun to contemplate.
- Eri
msg=71352 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:24:56 | u=4
Re: Art related Vocab
zombat
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg71330#msg71330 date=1265083656]
Regarding -tu vs. -yu.... I like the implication of taronyu one who does hunting "hunter", spe'etu one whom capture is done to "captive".
Where does that leave reltseotu? Reltseo-tu one whom visual art is done to "artist". The implication being that in Na'vi, one does not "make" art... art is something that happens to you, i.e. you are inspired and moved by a creative spirit, the resulting artwork being almost an incidental by-product.
Just my two cents. Almost certainly wrong. But fun to contemplate.
- Eri
[/quote]
Interesting, but "one whom visual art is done to" sounds either like literally painting people, or the subject of a portrait, imo :P
msg=71700 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:06:45 | u=1120
Re: Art related Vocab
roger
Humans are possessed by their muse. Possible.
msg=72454 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:03:00 | u=4
Re: Art related Vocab
zombat
Resolution!
[quote=Pawl]About -tu vs. -yu: You're right--"yu" is an ending for a verb, converting it into the doer or agent, similar to English -er. "Tu," on the other hand, is short for "tute," person (as in Tawtute), and is generally used with parts of speech other than verbs.
So: for "reltseo" (as you know, rel 'image, picture' + tseo 'art'), we get "reltseotu," 'artist (lit. picture-art-person)'.
Likewise, from pamtseo 'music' we get pamtseotu, 'musician'.
[/quote]
:D:D:D:D
Pamtseotu = Musician
msg=72462 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:06:34 | u=631
Re: Art related Vocab
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Uhm, just for personal clarification...
That means: -yu is always used with verbs
-tu with 'everything else'
I always thought: taronyu "hunter"
tarontu "the hunted one"
???
msg=72478 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:12:05 | u=558
Re: Art related Vocab
Coyote
Well, hell, we've been using "tesosiyu" in the RP, does that get left anything?
It is structured like tsamsiyu, after all, which was what I based it off of, "one who makes ___" (war, art, weaving, etc).
msg=72512 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:22:26 | u=21
Re: Art related Vocab
wm.annis
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg72454#msg72454 date=1265130180]
Resolution![/quote]
Added to the Canon.
That puts spe'etu in a strange place, though. Oh, well. Who wants a perfectly regular language?
msg=73013 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:02:36 | u=1011
Re: Art related Vocab
Kiliyä
It could be that it is exactly like -er and -ist in English, and that we're seeing an "irregularity" in Na'vi. I don't know why you guys are obsessed with clarifying and codifying every little example and making them fit your own thoughts about the language. Why can't Na'vi have two agental suffixes? Why can't it be a little odd in applying those suffixes to verbs vs. nouns or whatever?
msg=73183 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:44:37 | u=1485
Re: Art related Vocab
Erimeyz
[quote author=Kiliyä link=topic=3553.msg73013#msg73013 date=1265144556]
It could be that it is exactly like -er and -ist in English, and that we're seeing an "irregularity" in Na'vi. I don't know why you guys are obsessed with clarifying and codifying every little example and making them fit your own thoughts about the language. Why can't Na'vi have two agental suffixes? Why can't it be a little odd in applying those suffixes to verbs vs. nouns or whatever?
[/quote]
I don't think anyone wants to make things fit their own thoughts, or to make Na'vi perfectly regular.
Some of us are obsessed with clarifying and codifying every little example so that we can learn to speak Na'vi correctly - the way Frommer says to - irregularities and all.
Some of us enjoy speculating about things we don't yet know, in anticipation of eventually knowing them.
- Eri
msg=73209 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:51:43 | u=1011
Re: Art related Vocab
Kiliyä
I understand. I want to use Na'vi correctly too, but it just seems laboured after a while to debate these tiny little points when really, we have so little to go on. For all we know, Na'vi may have synonyms! Wouldn't that throw a spanner in the works in the beginner board? "What's the difference between x and y?" "Nothing." "Oh. Okay." There'd be 100s of those threads! When I was starting out with Na'vi, I used to get frustrated when people would answer an honest inquiry with "we don't know." But I get it now, and I think it's the best response most of the time! Maybe we should put it in our sigs: "We don't know the majority of what you're going to ask. Please read these and then ask anyway."
msg=73553 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 01:28:16 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3553.msg72462#msg72462 date=1265130394]
That means: -yu is always used with verbs
-tu with 'everything else'
I always thought: taronyu "hunter"
tarontu "the hunted one"
???
[/quote]
But taron is only a verb right? Where did tarontu come from?
I've seen nothing to indicate to that -tu is really the object of the word affixes to i.e. the object of the hunting = the hunted.
Not directed at you Plumps, but people will try to analyse the tiny fragments of information we have and attribute regular rules to them because the Na'vi corpus is too small to do much else. There is not thousands of years of history and usage behind this language with millions of speakers alive and deceased.... there is two months of public usage and 1 speaker who himself hasn't made it all up yet. If we don't debate the little points looking for answers then at this stage, we might as well all give up completely.
msg=73834 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 08:08:06 | u=195
Re: Art related Vocab
esoanem
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3553.msg72512#msg72512 date=1265131346]
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3553.msg72454#msg72454 date=1265130180]
Resolution![/quote]
Added to the Canon.
That puts spe'etu in a strange place, though. Oh, well. Who wants a perfectly regular language?
[/quote]
I don't see why it need be. Frommer says that it is mainly used on parts of speech other than verbs. If it was used on a verb it would mean the same as taron and lead to redundancy which doesn't seem to be liked very much in na'vi (effectual infixes getting dropped and the like) so it could very easily have evolved a seperate form for verbs.
The way I'm thinking of it is that -tu means someone who makes ____ for nouns or adjectives but means someone who is _____ for verbs.
msg=74365 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 14:43:02 | u=631
Re: Art related Vocab
Plumps83
[quote author=Eight link=topic=3553.msg73553#msg73553 date=1265160496]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3553.msg72462#msg72462 date=1265130394]
That means: -yu is always used with verbs
-tu with 'everything else'
I always thought: taronyu "hunter"
tarontu "the hunted one"
[/quote]
But taron is only a verb right? Where did tarontu come from?
I've seen nothing to indicate to that -tu is really the object of the word affixes to i.e. the object of the hunting = the hunted.
Not directed at you Plumps, but people will try to analyse the tiny fragments of information we have and attribute regular rules to them because the Na'vi corpus is too small to do much else. There is not thousands of years of history and usage behind this language with millions of speakers alive and deceased.... there is two months of public usage and 1 speaker who himself hasn't made it all up yet. If we don't debate the little points looking for answers then at this stage, we might as well all give up completely.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]No hard feelings, ma Eight
I 'derived' it from spe'etu - captive where spe'e is given as a verb. Logical assumption... I thought. But I very much stand corrected if you think that we cannot make such conjectures.
Irayo :)
msg=75103 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 20:25:18 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
:)
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3553.msg74365#msg74365 date=1265208182]
I 'derived' it from spe'etu - captive where spe'e is given as a verb. Logical assumption... I thought. But I very much stand corrected if you think that we cannot make such conjectures.
[/quote]
I think Dr. Frommer has now said that -yu is for attaching to verbs to create a noun for the agent, and -tu is for attaching to "everything" else.
Which does leave "spe'etu" in a strange place right now - I can't help wondering if there's something about spe'e itself that we're missing. E.g. are we sure it's a verb? :D Was just checking whether tarontu was published anywhere.
I liked the theory about -tu though. It would have been a cool suffix to have right now.
msg=75402 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 00:30:27 | u=664
Re: Art related Vocab
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Eight link=topic=3553.msg75103#msg75103 date=1265228718]
:)
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3553.msg74365#msg74365 date=1265208182]
I 'derived' it from spe'etu - captive where spe'e is given as a verb. Logical assumption... I thought. But I very much stand corrected if you think that we cannot make such conjectures.
[/quote]
I think Dr. Frommer has now said that -yu is for attaching to verbs to create a noun for the agent, and -tu is for attaching to "everything" else.
Which does leave "spe'etu" in a strange place right now - I can't help wondering if there's something about spe'e itself that we're missing. E.g. are we sure it's a verb? :D Was just checking whether tarontu was published anywhere.
I liked the theory about -tu though. It would have been a cool suffix to have right now.
[/quote]
Spe'eyu would be "Captor", srak? Spe'etu makes sense to me, it is not the "doer or agent" and -tu is "generally used with parts of speech other than verbs" -- there's not a hard rule against it, so whats the problem with "capture-person" being "captive"? :)
-Keyl
msg=75433 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 01:17:25 | u=1485
Re: Art related Vocab
Erimeyz
So... tseotu art-person "artist".
I wonder if you could, conversationally, get a little convoluted and refer to an artist as tseo siyu art-make/do-agent "artist", in order to stress that (perhaps at the moment) he is actually making art, i.e. casting him in an agentive role rather than merely as an associated person.
Tseo siyu hahaw. art-make/do-agent sleeps. "The art-maker sleeps."
Subtext: "Bob, who is an artist, hasn't done all that much lately, but today he was busy all day actually making art for a change, and it wore him out, so he's sleeping, finally, thank Eywa."
... or maybe I'm [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/pragmatics/]being too pragmatic[/url].
- Eri
msg=75464 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 01:47:34 | u=664
Re: Art related Vocab
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg75433#msg75433 date=1265246245]
So... tseotu art-person "artist".
I wonder if you could, conversationally, get a little convoluted and refer to an artist as tseo siyu art-make/do-agent "artist", in order to stress that (perhaps at the moment) he is actually making art, i.e. casting him in an agentive role rather than merely as an associated person.
Tseo siyu hahaw. art-make/do-agent sleeps. "The art-maker sleeps."
Subtext: "Bob, who is an artist, hasn't done all that much lately, but today he was busy all day actually making art for a change, and it wore him out, so he's sleeping, finally, thank Eywa."
... or maybe I'm [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/pragmatics/]being too pragmatic[/url].
- Eri
[/quote]
They are *probably* both grammatically correct, but it all depends on what the common usage is, which I'm assuming Dr. Frommer gave us. Like in Japanese you could say 芸術する人(geijyutsu-suru-hito) art-do(ing)-person and people would understand you, but the more "correct" word would be 芸術家(geijyutsuka) art-ist. I'm sure to the native speaker there might be some difference in connotation, but we would need a lot more "native" speakers of Na'vi to start speculating about it, me thinks.
-Keyl
msg=75572 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 03:39:50 | u=21
Re: Art related Vocab
wm.annis
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3553.msg75464#msg75464 date=1265248054]Like in Japanese you could say 芸術する人(geijyutsu-suru-hito) art-do(ing)-person and people would understand you, but the more "correct" word would be 芸術家(geijyutsuka) art-ist. [/quote]
This is a very important general point, actually. Fluency, as measured by governments, for example, often makes an effort to take into account the ability to make yourself clearly understood even if you might not know all the most exact words for the situation. This is the great power of language. Using Na'vi is probably always going to require this skill.
msg=75841 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 08:21:57 | u=73
Re: Art related Vocab
Prrton
I really don't see the problem with -yu and -tu when attached to verbs paralleling -er and -ee in English and then -tu doing something slightly different elsewhere.
spe'eyu (captor)
spe'etu (captive)
reltseotu (visual artist)
It doesn't cause a conundrum for me, whether the pattern is regular with all nouns or not. It would be nice if it were, but... We cope with much stranger exceptions in English all the time. The -ist that Keyl was mentioning in Japanese (e.6) is also the written word (Chinese derivational morpheme) for "family" and "house" and is homophonous in modern Japanese with the words for "fire, day, section..." all pronounced "ka" and generally (but not always) occurring at the same "word final" position as -tu and -yu in Na'vi. We just need to be careful about deriving and neologizing with word final -tu with nouns (and verbs for that matter) until we understand it better. We don't want to end up with words sounding like "bakist, librarier, baby-sittian" etc. I do LOVE the word ネイリスト ("nail-ist") in Japanese though. Talk about neologisms out of control! Txantslan! 8)
msg=76897 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 19:35:17 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3553.msg75402#msg75402 date=1265243427]
there's not a hard rule against it, so whats the problem with "capture-person" being "captive"? :)
[/quote]
I don't have any problem with it at all - in fact I like it this way - but I'd prefer to see something official about -tu refering to the affected person if used with a verb.
Or whether it's irregular / mistake etc. etc.
msg=77050 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 20:49:34 | u=1485
Re: Art related Vocab
Erimeyz
[quote author=Eight link=topic=3553.msg76897#msg76897 date=1265312117]
I don't have any problem with it at all - in fact I like it this way - but I'd prefer to see something official about -tu refering to the affected person if used with a verb.
[/quote]
Well, that's kinda what he said:
[quote]
About -tu vs. -yu: You're right--"yu" is an ending for a verb, converting it into the doer or agent, similar to English -er. "Tu," on the other hand, is short for "tute," person (as in Tawtute), and is generally used with parts of speech other than verbs.
[/quote]
"generally" used with non-verbs means "sometimes" used with verbs. And I don't think you can get much clearer than "Tu is short for tute, person". So a compound formed with X-tu means X-person... and X-person means whatever it means. Maybe agent, maybe subject, maybe interested person... probably no way to know except on a case-by-case basis.
- Eri
msg=77109 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 21:23:39 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg77050#msg77050 date=1265316574]
Well, that's kinda what he said:
[/quote]
If you mean "kinda" in the sense of not addressing the key bit, then yes. :)
Quite clearly -tu could be used with verbs but that's all I've seen so far. I'm only saying that I'd prefer another example or two (or confirmation) of what the effect is.
Especially since that, only in my own opinion, if verb+tu meant (or could mean) the affected/interested party then I don't think "generally used with parts of speech other than verbs" would be right. Because surely this would be quite a common thing to use?
msg=77259 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 22:35:59 | u=1485
Re: Art related Vocab
Erimeyz
[quote author=Eight link=topic=3553.msg77109#msg77109 date=1265318619]
Especially since that, only in my own opinion, if verb+tu meant (or could mean) the affected/interested party then I don't think "generally used with parts of speech other than verbs" would be right. Because surely this would be quite a common thing to use?
[/quote]
You know, that's a great point. Why wouldn't it be common with verbs? Maybe there's not that many verbs where "associated person" means anything other than "doer"? So most verbs just take -yu, with -tu being "technically" correct but actually wrong, like "law-ist" or "piano-er"?
- Eri
msg=77280 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 22:58:26 | u=1244
Re: Art related Vocab
Eight
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg77259#msg77259 date=1265322959]
Maybe there's not that many verbs where "associated person" means anything other than "doer"?
[/quote]
In English I could think of a lot of verbs where you'd have a literal verb+er and verb+ee (eg. employer, employee) and you could in theory have less literal pairs like hunter/huntee (prey)... but something like this might not be so acceptable in Na'vi (and it might not be very common in other languages, I'll be the first admit my studies of languages beyond Europe is patchy at best).
But it is a good question - is there something about spe'e that I'm missing which might explain why spe'eyu is probably a captor and spe'etu a captive, but that the application of this combination might not be appropriate for other transitive verbs taking people as objects.
Aaaarrrggghhh. Oeyä eltu hurts. :D
msg=80626 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:26:32 | u=2873
Re: Art related Vocab
Skyinou
From what we know about the Na'vi people, I would say "yu" is simply honorific and "tu" is a fact.
Taronyu: That'is not exactly "one who hunt", but more a grown person who finished his initiation.
And "spe'etu and tseotu are "people who do these things", being captive or art.
Of course it make being an artist somewhat lower than a hunter, which sounds really bad. But I see that more like you can be both. Depending of if you can live within the clan being only an artist, without becoming "Taronyu" or equivalent.
msg=80633 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:29:56 | u=21
Re: Art related Vocab
wm.annis
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3553.msg80626#msg80626 date=1265473592]From what we know about the Na'vi people, I would say "yu" is simply honorific and "tu" is a fact.[/quote]
Frommer has explicitly stated that he didn't try to work a world-view into the grammar of the language. From the [url=http://www.ugo.com/movies/paul-frommer-interview]UGO interview[/url]
[quote]
Jordan Hoffman: Well, this leads to an actual question – the Na’vi philosophy is a very natural, holistic way of life. Those blue suckers are very green. Did this in any way inform the construction of the language?
Paul Frommer: No. Only with certain concepts that I knew needed to be in there like “Tree of Souls” or “Hometree” and some of the religious concepts of Eowah. Otherwise, no, I just wanted exotic sounds to the Western ear – the ejectives the [proceeds clicking and making beat box sounds] and something fun for the audience. There is really no connection between the grammatical structure or aural quality of a language with the culture of a people.
[/quote]
msg=80667 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:44:47 | u=2873
Re: Art related Vocab
Skyinou
I don't think this goes against what I suggested. Since there are words like "uniltaron" which refers directly to something special needed for becoming "taronyu".
Dr. Frommer did said there is no connection with grammar and culture, but there is no way to create a full language without thinking of the people who use it.
There we are more on the "vocabulary" part, which is more connected to the people, than the grammar. In my opinion, he said that to mention Na'vi is a full grown language, not a kind of "love-tree simple-minded way of speaking".
I may be wrong, of course. :P
msg=80728 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:27:42 | u=1485
Re: Art related Vocab
Erimeyz
The reason there's so much tree-hugger hippie crap in the current vocabulary is because Frommer only created words as needed to translate the script. So Frommer developed the language, but the selection of words making up the lexicon is entirely due to Cameron.
- Eri
msg=81125 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 21:25:46 | u=195
Re: Art related Vocab
esoanem
I've just been thinking about pamtseo and reltseo and thought, given that specific artforms seem to be made by compounding the word for the medium with tseo, mightn't poetry be lì'utseo or word-art?
msg=81164 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 21:37:51 | u=1485
Re: Art related Vocab
Erimeyz
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3553.msg81125#msg81125 date=1265491546]
I've just been thinking about pamtseo and reltseo and thought, given that specific artforms seem to be made by compounding the word for the medium with tseo, mightn't poetry be lì'utseo or word-art?
[/quote]
It certainly might be. But lì'utseo could mean storytelling instead, or perhaps the Na'vi don't see a distinction between the two forms of art, or perhaps they only have one or the other. We know they have songs, and they have a separate word for them. What we consider poetry they may just think of as a song without music.
I would use lì'utseo for anything that I considered "word-art", until we get more words or more specific definitions.
- Eri
msg=85446 | topic=3553 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:12:37 | u=73
Re: Art related Vocab
Prrton
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3553.msg81164#msg81164 date=1265492271]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3553.msg81125#msg81125 date=1265491546]
I've just been thinking about pamtseo and reltseo and thought, given that specific artforms seem to be made by compounding the word for the medium with tseo, mightn't poetry be lì'utseo or word-art?
[/quote]
It certainly might be. But lì'utseo could mean storytelling instead, or perhaps the Na'vi don't see a distinction between the two forms of art, or perhaps they only have one or the other. We know they have songs, and they have a separate word for them. What we consider poetry they may just think of as a song without music.
I would use lì'utseo for anything that I considered "word-art", until we get more words or more specific definitions.
- Eri
[/quote]
Merllte
msg=70886 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:31:03 | u=21
Combining our efforts
wm.annis
I'll admit it. I'm a conlang fanboy. Getting direct email from Frommer doesn't quite make me squeal, but it's nice to get them. However, the poor guy does have a day job, too. Might it make sense for use to collect our questions into a single bunch, so he doesn't have to deal with the same issues over and over?
I have lots and lots of questions, but I'll stick with these two for now.
First, is this correct: po kä a tseng(ne) ke tsìme'a oel I didn't see where s/he was going.
Second, regarding adpositions. When they follow, they are written attached to the word. Can we assume this means they are enclitic, and have no stress accent of their own? Is the accent obliterated in two syllable adpostions, as in eyktanmungwrr?
msg=70906 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:42:12 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
Good idea.
As for questions, there is a burning one: atan!?
msg=70910 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:45:51 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
I'd like to know about double negatives... Is it required for the subject to agree with the verb in negation, or does that just emphasize the negative? And how does the copula enter into it? Would it be correct to say "Oe ke lu kea 'eveng" or would the kea there be incorrect? Could "Oe lu kea 'eveng" be used rather than "Oe ke lu 'eveng", or would the former be considered incorrect?
(And oddly, I was just thinking about the question of atan this morning.)
msg=70920 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:52:00 | u=664
Re: Combining our efforts
Keyltstxatsmen
Well if anyone does become the "Locutus" of this group, please get word stresses if possible when getting answers for other things. For a verbal-only language, I find it weird that people are ignoring all the gaps we have in this info.
-Keyl
msg=70923 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-01 22:53:09 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg70920#msg70920 date=1265064720]
Well if anyone does become the "Locutus" of this group, please get word stresses if possible when getting answers for other things. [/quote]
Srane, rutxe!
msg=71217 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:50:20 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Also, if someone decides to email and include the current set of questions, RUTXE let us know here before you do it, so he doesn't get 5 duplicate emails.
msg=71250 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:23:41 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Something else I'd like to know...
Can "po" be used for 3rd person inanimate objects (it)...
msg=71253 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:29:12 | u=1317
Re: Combining our efforts
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
I got one, how about a word for "funny" and I mean actual funny, like haha funny, it gets tiring hearing people constantly make fun of hìyìk for it sounding like hiyuk.
msg=71257 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:32:26 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
I just recalled one. Wait. Two.
mì is "in." What is "into"? Is there some systematic way to create adpositions of location, destination and source from what we have now? Mìso and neto are maybe hints (although adverbial hints).
And how do we get adverbial adpositions? "I go in."
msg=71266 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:35:41 | u=1317
Re: Combining our efforts
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
Getting some words for emotions would be nice.
msg=71269 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:36:16 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Ooh ooh!
And how do we express location in a generic sense when "in" does not make sense? "I am at Iknimaya" vs "I am IN Iknimaya"
msg=71272 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:36:52 | u=365
Re: Combining our efforts
Doolio
-this question just crossed my mind - multiple vocatives. do we treat them like a cluster (ma smukan, smuke si eveng) or not (ma smukan, ma smuke si ma eveng)? although i am pretty sure that it's the latter. also, the rules for placing the vocative particle in particular situations (i noticed that frommer wrote something like "ma oeyä smukan")...
-also the "toruk makto" phenomenon, and the "maweya tsmukan" phenomenon:)
nothing else for now, my brain is empty...
msg=71280 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:42:30 | u=1317
Re: Combining our efforts
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
Another question. Are Na'vi names created the way we've been doing them (taking vocab words) or some other way they come up with na'vi names. (other than na'vi-izing your real name)
msg=71289 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:46:59 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg70886#msg70886 date=1265063463]
However, the poor guy does have a day job, too.
[/quote]
Not really. He's a college professor.
- Eri
(kidding, kidding!)
msg=71315 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:59:49 | u=2325
Re: Combining our efforts
suomichris
Two words:
Evi. Dentials.
If/when this list of questions does get sent to him, I'd suggest it be from someone with some background in linguistics, since it might make the phrasing/explication of the questions a bit easier for Frommer--Or, at least, check all of the wording of the questions here so we can get the message stream-lined and easy for him to deal with.
Also, I've seen quite a few uses of things derived from "tsa-" on here, presumably based on parallels with English "that," but I don't think Frommer has used such a thing... Are all of the subordinators derived from "fì" rather than "tsa-"?
msg=71358 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:27:53 | u=4
Re: Combining our efforts
zombat
for I would kill for a word for 'For'
msg=71361 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:29:35 | u=2325
Re: Combining our efforts
suomichris
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3577.msg71358#msg71358 date=1265084873]
for I would kill for a word for 'For'
[/quote]What kind of "for"? We have a bunch of words for this...
msg=71418 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 05:22:39 | u=4
Re: Combining our efforts
zombat
how about all of them :P
preferably at least a conjunction form :)
msg=71435 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 05:37:28 | u=2325
Re: Combining our efforts
suomichris
[quote author=Skxawng link=topic=3577.msg71418#msg71418 date=1265088159]
how about all of them :P
preferably at least a conjunction form :)
[/quote]Uh... Can you give some examples of what kind of "for" you want? I have a nasty headache, so maybe I'm being really dense, but I can't think of a "for" that we don't have a Na'vi word for...
msg=71608 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 08:44:27 | u=1244
Re: Combining our efforts
Eight
If anyone is speaking to Dr. Frommer about some of the more important points being mentioned in this thread, maybe you could slip in a small request for a noun for pain/suffering.
It's all I ask.
Well I would also ask that he clears up what happens to adjectives beginning with ' or a vowel when you add the attributive marker to the front. But mainly I just want my little noun.
msg=71622 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 09:28:21 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Here is what I see so far... I'm leaving a few off here, explanation to follow.
[quote]General
1. Is this correct: po kä a tseng(ne) ke tsìme'a oel I didn't see where s/he was going.([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])
2. From your examples Na'vi seems to use double negatives as a negative. Is is required that the subject agree with the verb in negativity, or is it merely used as an extra emphasis? How does this work with equative statements (IE I am not your friend - does lu get the negative, 'eylan ngayä, either, or both? Does oe enter into the negation at all?)
3. Are the third person pronouns specifically for animate objects, or can they be used as "it" to refer to inanimate objects?
4. Are multiple vocatives clustered (ma smukan sì smuke) or not (ma smukan sì ma smuke)?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])
5. Does the vocative always come before the noun and all modifiers including adjectives and genitives, or is it just before the head noun? Is it always a particle or can it ever be used as a suffix/enclitic?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])
6. Can sì be ommitted (smukan, smuke sì eylan) or must it always be given (smukan sì smuke sì eylan)?
7. In toruk makto it seems like it should be maktoyu. Aside from "James Cameron Said So" is there a reason it is not?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])
8. What are the evidential forms?
9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt with when the attributive is used? Do other vowels need any special treatment with the attributive?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])
10. In general, do any affixes cause the stress in a word to shift, or is the fem. tuté purely due to the contraction of two "e" vowels?
11. In English we use the present perfect to indicate experience (among many other things), as in, "I have eaten jellyfish." Mandarin uses the particle guo (过). What's the correct way to do this in Na'vi?
Adpositions
1. Regarding adpositions. When they follow, they are written attached to the word. Can we assume this means they are enclitic, and have no stress accent of their own? Is the accent obliterated in two syllable adpostions, as in eyktanmungwrr?([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/"]answered[/url])
2. The adposition mì is "in." What is "into"? Is there some systematic way to create adpositions of location, destination and source from what we have now? Mìso and neto are maybe hints (although adverbial hints).
3. How do we get adverbial adpositions? For example, "I go in."
Vocabulary
1. Does the word atan mean light as in "adj. luminous", "adj. not heavy" or "n. illumination"? ([url=http://"http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/atan-lucet-in-tenebris/"]answered[/url])
2. Words for concepts like someone, something, somewhere, someway, sometime/somewhen.
A suggestion from one of our community members, based on calquing horribly with a mutant hybrid of Greek and Mandarin would be...
lu hrr a sanhìt nìn oel. There are times (when) I look at the stars.
lu fayu a oeru prrte' lu There are these (things) which are a pleasure to me.
3. Words for concepts like anyone, anything, anywhere, etc... "It is something that anyone can create." or "You can bring anything you want."
4. Desired vocabulary:
Dark/darkness
End
Remember/memory
Colors besides blue & yellow
Funny (As in humorous, not strange)
Joke
Various emotions (Happy, sad, etc)
Pain/suffering or related words[/quote]
Does that sound like a fair summary? Did I word everyone's questions appropriately? (Suomichris I'm not sure how to word your tsa- and fì- bit... It sounds more like just off handed thoughts rather than actual questions.) Wm., do you think it would be a good idea to include what it is about that sentence you're asking is correct? (I think I know the answer, but not sure I know the right words to describe it.)
These are comments on things I did not include in this list. I'm not opposed to including them if we feel it's important, but I think these are questions that we already have answers for, or have a fairly firm foundation for believing our answer is correct.
Eight, I left out the part about glottal stops & the attributive because it should not make a difference. The glottal stop is just a consonant sound.
Na'vi names: That may be more of a Cameron question than a Frommer question, I'm not sure how many names Frommer actually created. That said, I don't know about others on the forum, but I wasn't aiming for the name of a Na'vi, I was just aiming for something in Na'vi to identify me.
Maweya tsmukan: It is my belief there is no "phenomenon" there to be explained. "Maweya" has nearly identical pronunciation to "Ma oeyä" which fits perfectly in with other things we've seen.
Rules for placing vocative: It seems pretty consistent, when you're talking to someone, you use "ma" when you name them by something aside from a personal pronoun. Included a question just to clarify the assumptions I was making based on observations.
msg=71692 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 10:56:24 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71622#msg71622 date=1265102901]
Maweya tsmukan: It is my belief there is no "phenomenon" there to be explained. "Maweya" has nearly identical pronunciation to "Ma oeyä" which fits perfectly in with other things we've seen.
Rules for placing vocative: It seems pretty consistent, when you're talking to someone, you use "ma" when you name them by something aside from a personal pronoun.
[/quote]
The phenomenon with "maweyä" is that the stress shifts with inflection. That's the question to ask: does the stress shift in any other word other that those derived from ''oe''? In general, do any affixes cause stress to shift, or is fem. tuté due to the contraction of the two e vowels? (This might be partially answered with the a-adjectives.) Is there a generalization for which word gets stress in a compound?
For the vocative, we've only seen it as a prep / particle, but that doesn't mean it can't occur as a suffix / enclitic. It might be worth asking (though a minor point, not important.)
Frommer has been working on a good illustration of the evidential. That wasn't s.t. he wanted to answer offhand, and which he'd probably want a dedicated email for. But I'd certainly be happy if he were to answer it here.
msg=71695 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:01:16 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Have a ref for the "maweya" stress shift? I must have missed that one.
msg=71696 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:03:22 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71695#msg71695 date=1265108476]
Have a ref for the "maweya" stress shift? I must have missed that one.
[/quote]
It's in the dictionary thread. There are like 8 lines of evidence.
msg=71786 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 12:09:26 | u=365
Re: Combining our efforts
Doolio
about vocative, i didn't mean in sense when it is used, but more like where should i put the vocative particle "physicaly" when i have something that affects the noun. in the frommer's example "ma oeyä smukan" we see that the vocative particle doesn't go directly in front of a noun (oeyä ma smukan). i mean, is there a general rule to this, how to cope with multiple adjectives/possessions etc.
as for "you use "ma" when you name them by something aside from a personal pronoun.", i don't know. i mean, when you use personal pronouns, you don't actually address the listener by that pronoun - "i love you" is practically the same as "i love her", or something. "i love you, john" demands "john" to be in vocative, but not "you" (which is in accusative). i don't know what to think of the actual direct addressing by the pronoun - "hey, you!" for example.
msg=71810 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 12:27:56 | u=1244
Re: Combining our efforts
Eight
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71622#msg71622 date=1265102901]
Eight, I left out the part about glottal stops & the attributive because it should not make a difference. The glottal stop is just a consonant sound.
[/quote]
Oh that's fine - you're quite right. My post came out the way it did from working on the Firefox dictionary where I'm seeing entries like aalaksì, aapxa, a'awve etc. and wasn't really sure what to make of it all, but didn't spend an overly long time thinking about it to be honest.
msg=72110 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 14:45:50 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71622#msg71622 date=1265102901]Wm., do you think it would be a good idea to include what it is about that sentence you're asking is correct? [/quote]
I think he'd grok where the question was coming from. I'm hoping for more fun with phrases adverbialized with the help of a, with a sneaky question about how to distinguish the relatives where, whither, whence.
msg=72261 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 15:38:05 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
Let me voice a contrarian view... or perhaps a complementarian view.
I think everyone should be emailing Frommer directly. If you have a question you really wish he would answer, you should ask him yourself. It's your question, after all... of all the things we don't know, and of all the people who want to know things, your question is the one you care most about, and you are the one who cares most about it. You'll do the best job asking it, and Frommer's answer (should he give one) will mean the most when directed back to you, replying to your words in your email.
There's no reason for the Learn Na'vi Community to collect questions and have them sent in one batch by the designated Speaker to Frommer and then reposted (appropriately redacted, of course) to the hungry masses. If you have an itch, scratch it! Eywa gave you hands, use them! Use all five fingers even, you crazy demons you.
I think we can combine our efforts, however, and I think it's important to do so. But I suggest a different method. Before you ask your question:
1) Make sure we don't have an answer yet! Ask it on the forum... like, say, in this very thread... and see if anyone can shed some light that you may have otherwise missed.
2) Let everyone know you want to know! Add your question to [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Open_Questions]the list of open questions[/url] on the wiki.
3) When you get a reply, share it with the group! Post relevant excerpts on a new forum thread so we can all discuss it. If you're so inclined, add it to [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]the canon page[/url] on the wiki. If not, no big deal, someone will do it for you sooner or later after you post to the forum.
There's room for both approaches, which is why I say this is a "complementarian" view. I think discussing questions in a thread like this is a good thing, and if someone wants to bundle them all up and ask them all at once, well, okay. But I'd hate for anyone to think that that's the only way we can approach Karyu Pawl. I'm confident that he's quite capable of managing his own email inbox (even with as busy as it's gotten lately), and I suspect that he'd be delighted to hear from each and every one of his students, individually.
- Eri
msg=72272 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 15:44:25 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg72261#msg72261 date=1265125085]There's no reason for the Learn Na'vi Community to collect questions and have them sent in one batch by the designated Speaker to Frommer and then reposted (appropriately redacted, of course) to the hungry masses. [/quote]
Um.
Or, you know... we could ask him. In interviews he has used the word "swamped" to describe his inbox.
msg=72317 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 16:09:35 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg72272#msg72272 date=1265125465]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg72261#msg72261 date=1265125085]There's no reason for the Learn Na'vi Community to collect questions and have them sent in one batch by the designated Speaker to Frommer and then reposted (appropriately redacted, of course) to the hungry masses. [/quote]
Um.
Or, you know... we could ask him. In interviews he has used the word "swamped" to describe his inbox.
[/quote]
True.
Recently, though, he seems to be a lot more responsive then he used to be, no? I suspect that indicates not just an increased ability to maintain correspondence, but also an outright enthusiasm for doing so. But you're right, we could ask him. So consider this my submission for the group questionnaire: "Do you like getting email from individual Na'vi students asking questions, or would you prefer to get them from a group all at once, like this?"
- Eri
msg=72620 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 18:01:23 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
It's a shame I sent an email to him about an hour before this thread went up.
Oh well, it had about fourteen questions in it, any more and he would have been swamped by my email alone. ;D
As for contributions I've remembered one that I forgot to put in my email which was "what is the equivalent phrase of "you're welcome"?"
Oh yeah, and the word for some so that we can say things like someone (probably tute or 'awpo), something, somewhere, someway, sometime/somewhen.
msg=72860 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 19:55:28 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg72620#msg72620 date=1265133683]Oh yeah, and the word for some so that we can say things like someone (probably tute or 'awpo), something, somewhere, someway, sometime/somewhen.[/quote]
I made a crazy suggestion for that [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/my-dictionary/msg72677/#msg72677]over here[/url]. It's not inherently implausible, so perhaps Frommer can bless or curse it as he sees fit.
Another one. In English we use the present perfect to indicate experience (among many other things), as in, "I have eaten jellyfish." Mandarin uses the particle guo (过). What's the correct way to do this in Na'vi?
msg=72929 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 20:25:40 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
[quote author=roger link=topic=3577.msg71696#msg71696 date=1265108602]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71695#msg71695 date=1265108476]
Have a ref for the "maweya" stress shift? I must have missed that one.
[/quote]
It's in the dictionary thread. There are like 8 lines of evidence.
[/quote]I was asking for a reference not evidence. Evidence implies I'm asking you to prove something, which I'm not. I'm just asking for a reference... However pointing to such a long thread doesn't really help as a reference, can you be more specific and point out a post about it?
msg=72973 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 20:42:11 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Doolio, I'm still not seeing how what you're asking about vocatives isn't already exemplified by canon material. "ma" has always come in front of the full noun phrase describing who is being addressed in the written examples we have. And it has always been given when the person being addressed is described. Furthermore it has never been used on pronouns (IE never "ma nga" or "ma fìtute"). The only thing which could be unclear about it is if you need to repeat it for every member of a group of people you are addressing and naming off, and if it can come as a suffix like an adposition as roger asked. It's possible that could be drawing conclusions from something that is just common use and not a rule, but it has been pretty consistent. I guess it wouldn't hurt to summarize those assumptions and ask if it is correct.
Tìkawngä mungeyu, nothing wrong with that. Just be sure to let us know if you asked any of the questions here so it can be crossed off.
One thing I noticed as I was compiling a list was that it was a long list... I think asking Frommer how he wants such questions (Small groups from multiple people, small groups from one person, or all at once) would be prudent. Having a huge list doesn't really save much time for him over simply just coordinating on not asking the same question, and it carries the additional burden that he may feel like he needs to answer all the questions at once.
Edit: Updated the list with additional questions/clarifications.
msg=73017 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:04:39 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
-yu vs. -tu
msg=73102 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:29:32 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
I thought -yu vs -tu was resolved now in the art vocab thread? Unless you're wanting to know why captive is an exception...
msg=73396 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 22:56:31 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg73102#msg73102 date=1265146172]
I thought -yu vs -tu was resolved now in the art vocab thread? Unless you're wanting to know why captive is an exception...
[/quote]
Sorry, I hadn't seen F's answer.
msg=73402 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 22:58:34 | u=417
Re: Combining our efforts
Alìm Tsamsiyu
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg72929#msg72929 date=1265142340]
[quote author=roger link=topic=3577.msg71696#msg71696 date=1265108602]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg71695#msg71695 date=1265108476]
Have a ref for the "maweya" stress shift? I must have missed that one.
[/quote]
It's in the dictionary thread. There are like 8 lines of evidence.
[/quote]I was asking for a reference not evidence. Evidence implies I'm asking you to prove something, which I'm not. I'm just asking for a reference... However pointing to such a long thread doesn't really help as a reference, can you be more specific and point out a post about it?
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure he's referring to a mistaken transcription of ma oeyä tsmukan when Neytìri is finishing off the viperwolf. This has been resolved and need not be asked of awngeyä karyu.
msg=73414 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 23:04:04 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
[quote author=roger link=topic=3577.msg73396#msg73396 date=1265151391]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg73102#msg73102 date=1265146172]
I thought -yu vs -tu was resolved now in the art vocab thread? Unless you're wanting to know why captive is an exception...
[/quote]
Sorry, I hadn't seen F's answer.
[/quote]No worries, it was a pretty recent post.
But it does leave tsamsiyu (Why not tsamtu) and spe'etu (It shuld be obvious why this isn't spe'eyu) as irregularities. Not that there's anything wrong with that...[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3577.msg73402#msg73402 date=1265151514]
I'm pretty sure he's referring to a mistaken transcription of ma oeyä tsmukan when Neytìri is finishing off the viperwolf. This has been resolved and need not be asked of awngeyä karyu.
[/quote]That was my reading as well, which I'd already addressed in my comments, but I did try looking for a "mawey" stress shift and found no comments about such a thing.
msg=73640 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 03:25:26 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
As long as we're asking about atan, how about dark and darkness. And along the same lines, how about all the colors? Maybe even sunrise/sunset?
As you can tell I'm in a very visual mindset right now :)
msg=73679 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 04:08:47 | u=430
Re: Combining our efforts
TehMightyPirate
Forgive me if it's been mentioned already but do we have a way to say "end" yet? If not, that would be a good one too.
msg=73831 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 08:02:27 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg72973#msg72973 date=1265143331]
Tìkawngä mungeyu, nothing wrong with that. Just be sure to let us know if you asked any of the questions here so it can be crossed off.
[/quote]
I don't think any of them have been asked yet but I'll be sure to post the reply up when I get it.
Edit: thought of another question: how does pey work? Is it like in Spanish where it takes a direct object, does it use the adposition fpi, a dative or some other construction?
msg=73993 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 11:04:40 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg73414#msg73414 date=1265151844]
But it does leave tsamsiyu (Why not tsamtu)
[/quote]
Tsamsiyu strikes me as being more active: a person who makes war. Next to that, "war-person" seems a tad dull. And maybe could be a tactician behind the scenes rather than an actual warrior doing the fighting.
msg=74055 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 11:45:45 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg73831#msg73831 date=1265184147]
thought of another question: how does pey work? Is it like in Spanish where it takes a direct object, does it use the adposition fpi, a dative or some other construction?
[/quote]
With direct object it's "await, wait for", without it's just "wait" in general. The former can be seen [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Verb_Phrases_as_Objects]here[/url], and the latter in the Ma Sempul response letter.
msg=74554 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 16:19:03 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
So when the thing you are waiting for is specified, it would be in the accusative? Like the Spanish esperar?
msg=74641 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 16:51:42 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg74554#msg74554 date=1265213943]
So when the thing you are waiting for is specified, it would be in the accusative?[/quote]
Yes, or topicalized. Frommer has used both.
msg=74921 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 18:48:01 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
The topic would be the exception as it always is. The phrase takes the accusative, that's what I have to remember.
msg=75179 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 21:02:59 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
Two more:
1) Are there rules governing the two given realizations of the /u/ phoneme?
2) Just what, exactly, is
lok? It's given as "close, close to", which would seem to imply either adposition or adjective, but then we have the strange occurrence of
livok in:
Nari soli ayoe fteke nìhawng livokeye make<PFV> PL-1-INTR lest too ?-SJV
We were careful not to get too closeDoes this mean that
lok is actually a verb meaning "get close, approach, draw near", or is it suggestive of "adjective verbs"? (Suppression of copula in
nìhawng lok livu?)
msg=75440 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 01:27:42 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
We can come up with dozens of questions on how individual words are used. I'm not sure it's the best use of our efforts, or Paul's time, when we have so many questions on the general working of the language. Though words like "spe'etu" are likely to illuminate broader patterns, which case we use with "wait" is not likely to be useful apart from that single word, and so would seem to be a low priority.
msg=75657 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 04:54:39 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
How about the superlative form? I know we have nul- for the comparative, but the only superlative form we have is swey(best). And in my experience with languages(french, german and icelandic) "best" is usually an irregular superlative.
msg=76050 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 11:19:02 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg75657#msg75657 date=1265259279]
How about the superlative form? I know we have nul- for the comparative, but the only superlative form we have is swey(best). And in my experience with languages(french, german and icelandic) "best" is usually an irregular superlative.
[/quote]
We have the "biggest I've ever seen" in the NYTimes interview.
msg=77210 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-04 22:09:46 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
I've thought of another.
The correct way to say I like and I hate/dislike.
For now I've been using "_____l oer fpomit tìng" and "____l oer fpomit ke tìng" but I doubt these are correct.
msg=77373 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 00:33:58 | u=631
Re: Combining our efforts
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Has anybody thought of the passive?
I'd like to get that mystery solved... :)
msg=77753 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 07:55:15 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
A question that came up in a different thread: how to say "mine".
Perhaps you just say "my". But that would imply that ean could mean "the blue one" as well as just "blue".
If it does, then adjectives must be able to take case, and possessive PNs must be able to take a second case ["I saw mine (accusative)" - oeyäti ??]. We've been assuming that's not possible. What we might have is a dummy noun like 'u that takes the case. So this could be quite an important question.
msg=79248 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 21:28:35 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3577.msg77373#msg77373 date=1265330038]
[font=Garamond]Has anybody thought of the passive?
I'd like to get that mystery solved... :)
[/quote]
For now I've been using a combination of word order changes and topical markers. That said, a Frommerian method would be good.
msg=79339 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-05 22:30:20 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
Are kä- (as in kämakto) and za- (as in zamunge) fully productive markers of direction? Oriented to speaker or subject? Any metaphorical extensions of meaning when used with verbs not related to motion?
msg=80045 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 09:14:15 | u=73
Re: Combining our efforts
Prrton
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg70906#msg70906 date=1265064132]
Good idea.
As for questions, there is a burning one: atan!?
[/quote]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/atan-lucet-in-tenebris/]Tì'eyng zola'u[/url] ;D
_______________________
msg=82865 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 18:07:04 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
If no one has mailed him already, I'll send him the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg71622/#msg71622]summary[/url] of questions Omängum F. made, and ask how he feels about a combined effort for these matters.
msg=82910 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 18:31:30 | u=430
Re: Combining our efforts
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg82865#msg82865 date=1265566024]
If no one has mailed him already, I'll send him the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg71622/#msg71622]summary[/url] of questions Omängum F. made, and ask how he feels about a combined effort for these matters.
[/quote]
Sounds good to me.
msg=83156 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:13:41 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg82865#msg82865 date=1265566024]
If no one has mailed him already, I'll send him the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg71622/#msg71622]summary[/url] of questions Omängum F. made, and ask how he feels about a combined effort for these matters.
[/quote]
We can take out atan and maybe add mine (= oeyä fì'u ?). Also "I am (feel) hot/cold" might be a good one.
msg=83432 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 22:46:35 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3577.msg82910#msg82910 date=1265567490]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg82865#msg82865 date=1265566024]
If no one has mailed him already, I'll send him the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg71622/#msg71622]summary[/url] of questions Omängum F. made, and ask how he feels about a combined effort for these matters.
[/quote]
Sounds good to me.
[/quote]
Seconded
msg=83535 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 00:33:15 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg83432#msg83432 date=1265582795]Seconded[/quote]
Consummatum est.
msg=83570 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 01:28:47 | u=73
Re: Combining our efforts
Prrton
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg83535#msg83535 date=1265589195]
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg83432#msg83432 date=1265582795]Seconded[/quote]
Consummatum est.
[/quote]
Footnote: We know from a separate mail on a separate issue that the meaning of "atan" is "illumination" so we need not bother him with that again, but I stooopidly forgot to ask for the correct pronunciation so please ask if it is átan or atán.
Also, please ask him as a GLOBAL request for all of his responses to indicate syllable stress for all new vocabulary.
PPS: It wouldn't be a bad idea for someone to go through all of the words for which we need but don't have syllable stress (because it was not indicated in the Survival Guide) and generate another list of "please clarify pronunciation for: ____, _____, _____, etc." As we begin to actually SPEAK, it really is vital to to know the stress. Thank you to Tsmukán Keyl for being such a soldier/general on this front.
msg=83939 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 07:39:27 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3577.msg83570#msg83570 date=1265592527]
It wouldn't be a bad idea for someone to go through all of the words for which we need but don't have syllable stress (because it was not indicated in the Survival Guide) and generate another list of "please clarify pronunciation for: ____, _____, _____, etc." As we begin to actually SPEAK, it really is vital to to know the stress. Thank you to Tsmukán Keyl for being such a soldier/general on this front.
[/quote]
Since we're already talking about a lot of words, I think better actually to ask him to go through the dict (or maybe the one on wiktionary, which doesn't have a lot of usage notes or examples) and verify the stress. Some of the ones we're sure of are probably wrong, and we'd miss them otherwise. And some may not even be words.
msg=83951 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 07:56:22 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
Be sure to ask for a complete description of the grammar while he's at it. And the lexicon. And a pony.
- Eri
msg=83961 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 08:12:08 | u=453
Re: Combining our efforts
bagget00
don't forget to ask if he has figured out a meaning for this yet.
"meoauniaea" (meh-oh-ah-oo-nee-ah-eh-ah). "Don't ask me what it means - I haven't assigned a meaning yet. But I love the word!" Frommer said.
msg=84017 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 09:51:53 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg83951#msg83951 date=1265615782]
Be sure to ask for a complete description of the grammar while he's at it. And the lexicon. And a pony.
[/quote]
I didn't mean as part of this collection! :P
But if we're thinking of compiling a list of words to check for stress on another occasion, I think it'd be more straightforward just to have him review s.t. we already have.
msg=84710 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 17:40:05 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
I thought of this in another thread.
What is the correct phrase for "I like ____" and likewise "I hate/dislike ___".
Also, if it hasn't already be mentioned, the correct response to "irayo".
msg=84766 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 18:01:26 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg84710#msg84710 date=1265650805]
Also, if it hasn't already be mentioned, the correct response to "irayo".
[/quote]
Actually, I hope Frommer doesn't tell us that.
I'd like to keep using [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/language-update-a-closer-look-at-dr-frommers-letter/msg46979/#msg46979]my own invention[/url] for a while, maintaining my self-delusion that it's actually correct. I don't think I could keep that up in the face of an actual answer from Karyu Pawl. :)
- Eri
msg=85412 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:03:29 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
I'd rather people use the correct form.
Here's one though... And I hope there is an answer because otherwise what I've been telling people is wrong. (Specifically that you can say anything that can be said in Na'vi without using the topic.)
How do we say what we apologize for without using the topic? Would it be something like "Ta fìskxawng tsap'alute sengi oe", or is that too simplistic? If I wanted to say "I apologize for eating your hexapede" would that be something like "Tsap'alute sengi oe taluna ngeyä yerikit yolom"?
msg=85424 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:06:38 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg85412#msg85412 date=1265666609]If I wanted to say "I apologize for eating your hexapede" would that be something like "Tsap'alute sengi oe taluna ngeyä yerikit yolom"?[/quote]
You can topicalize a phrase, with a fì'uri, as in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]Canon[/url] (Jan 20), ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole' a fì'uri, ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan!.
msg=85490 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:25:47 | u=73
Re: Combining our efforts
Prrton
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg85424#msg85424 date=1265666798]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg85412#msg85412 date=1265666609]If I wanted to say "I apologize for eating your hexapede" would that be something like "Tsap'alute sengi oe taluna ngeyä yerikit yolom"?[/quote]
You can topicalize a phrase, with a fì'uri, as in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]Canon[/url] (Jan 20), ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole' a fì'uri, ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan!.
[/quote]
Tafral nìteng san« Furia ngengeyä yerikit yolom ohel, tsap'alute suyi (ohe) »sìk tsun fko pivlltxe.
msg=85535 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:39:18 | u=73
Re: Combining our efforts
Prrton
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg84766#msg84766 date=1265652086]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg84710#msg84710 date=1265650805]
Also, if it hasn't already be mentioned, the correct response to "irayo".
[/quote]
Actually, I hope Frommer doesn't tell us that.
I'd like to keep using [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/language-update-a-closer-look-at-dr-frommers-letter/msg46979/#msg46979]my own invention[/url] for a while, maintaining my self-delusion that it's actually correct. I don't think I could keep that up in the face of an actual answer from Karyu Pawl. :)
- Eri
[/quote]
| A: | Irayo! | |
| Ä: | nìPrrte' | "my pleasure" or "ask whenever, at your pleasure'" |
| | nìMeuia | "my honor" or "I'm honored to be able to do it for you" |
msg=85561 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 22:53:38 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg85424#msg85424 date=1265666798]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg85412#msg85412 date=1265666609]If I wanted to say "I apologize for eating your hexapede" would that be something like "Tsap'alute sengi oe taluna ngeyä yerikit yolom"?[/quote]
You can topicalize a phrase, with a fì'uri, as in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]Canon[/url] (Jan 20), ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole' a fì'uri, ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan!.
[/quote]Right, but the root of my question is how to say it WITHOUT using the topic. I know how to say it with a topic or otherwise in context.
msg=85704 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-09 00:26:47 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3577.msg85535#msg85535 date=1265668758]
| A: | Irayo! | |
| Ä: | nìPrrte' | "my pleasure" or "ask whenever, at your pleasure'" |
| | nìMeuia | "my honor" or "I'm honored to be able to do it for you" |
[/quote]
Yeah, okay, those are good too. :)
- Eri
msg=87645 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:02:32 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
Still no reply to my email.
And a new question: how should we understand the phrase oeru teya si (the rhythm) fills me from the Weaving Song. Our other si-construction idioms use nouns.
msg=87707 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 00:41:39 | u=73
Re: Combining our efforts
Prrton
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg87645#msg87645 date=1265760152]
Still no reply to my email.
And a new question: how should we understand the phrase
oeru teya si (the rhythm) fills me from the Weaving Song. Our other
si-construction idioms use nouns.
[/quote]
I suspect it *could be* a paradigm that is related to adjectives that have a verbal component, but I don't know. I believe that *at least some* of the *adjectives* (or things that we think of as adjectives at this point) don't always
require lu (in all contexts?). Example:
...fteke nìhawng l•iv•ok ("...so that we not get too close"). PERHAPS (a complete guess on my part) this might happen:
| teya | full (be full) | t•iv•eya | if full/may be full | teya si | to fill/fills |
| lok | close (be close) | l•iv•ok | if close/may be close | lok si | to approach/approaches |
| txur | strong (be strong) | tx•iv•ur | if strong/may be strong | txur si | to strengthen/strengthens |
roger may have a better understanding of this or more confidence on the subject. But, if this class of verbal adjectives does exist, and it is a subset, then I am not aware of any *list* (partial or complete) having been made publicly available. The concept of it seems compatible with how many of the other parts of speech can and do change via
tì- and
le-. PERHAPS (only MY theory), the
tì- of
*tì.teya si is redundant and therefore optionally or systematically dropped?
msg=87775 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 01:56:54 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
That looks reasonable, given that we have livok. It would suggest we could use si with verbs as a causative. But we'd need confirmation from Frommer.
msg=88818 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 17:06:23 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg87645#msg87645 date=1265760152]
Still no reply to my email.
[/quote]
I wouldn't expect one for a while.
I sent mine just before the thread started, still no response, I guess his inbox is still swamped.
msg=90333 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 05:19:36 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg88818#msg88818 date=1265821583]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg87645#msg87645 date=1265760152]
Still no reply to my email.
[/quote]
I wouldn't expect one for a while.
I sent mine just before the thread started, still no response, I guess his inbox is still swamped.
[/quote]
He also has a real life, and this has got to play second fiddle to his more pressing commitments. Don't expect any communication around finals, for example.
msg=90447 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 07:54:12 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
Good point. He certainly does have better things to do, he even gets paid for some of them! ;D
msg=90807 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 14:53:12 | u=430
Re: Combining our efforts
TehMightyPirate
Yeah, isn't this midterm season?
msg=100457 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 15:15:43 | u=1620
Re: Combining our efforts
dontbugme
i dont know if this allready found a way into a mail to frommer or an answer, but as far as i know there is no knowlege about it yet:
there are 2 words for "and"; "ulte" connects sentences whereas "sì" connects expressions as far as i know.
the 1. question is: are there also 2 words for "or" or is "fu" used in both cases ?
2. question: is there an expression(s) for "either or" ?
msg=100555 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 16:27:28 | u=430
Re: Combining our efforts
TehMightyPirate
Just for people that are following this thread but not the language updates forum in general we have a preliminary response:
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-%28feb-16%29/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-%28feb-16%29/[/url]
msg=100561 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 16:30:38 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Updated my list on page 2 to mark questions that have been answered. Now I jsut need to update it to include all the questions I haven't gotten around to adding yet.
msg=101661 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 03:26:53 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
Ma omängum fra'uti,
You can cross off atan as illumination if you want.
I don't know if this has been asked yet, but as a possible future question: If a prefix/suffix results in a diphthong, is it pronounced as such? E.g.
X a-yey is it ay.ey or a.yey?
msg=101818 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 07:09:30 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg101661#msg101661 date=1266377213]
I don't know if this has been asked yet, but as a possible future question: If a prefix/suffix results in a diphthong, is it pronounced as such? E.g.
X a-yey is it ay.ey or a.yey?
[/quote]
I've asked it on my own, in the opposite form: is ay-eyktan ay.eyk or a.yeyk? No answer yet, but I think it probably follows the morpheme boundaries when speaking slowly for instruction, but in quick speech F runs things together: a final consonant on one word becomes the onset to the initial vowel of the next. AFAIK there is no phonemic distinction between ay.ey and a.yey, so I doubt the morphological distinction is maintained.
msg=101954 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 09:56:51 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg100561#msg100561 date=1266337838]
Updated my list on page 2 to mark questions that have been answered. Now I jsut need to update it to include all the questions I haven't gotten around to adding yet.
[/quote]
In that case I'd like to repeat [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg75179/#msg75179]this pair[/url]. The first question is a simple one as it stands, but it concerns itself with a very basic feature of the spoken language. The second could either serve to identify an erroneous source, or possibly illuminate an interesting grammatical mechanism.
(Something else which has occurred to me is what happens when prefixes are applied to words like oeyk. I'm assuming that the plural series would come out as *meweyk, *pxeweyk, ayoeyk/*ayweyk, the demonstratives as *fìweyk, *tsaweyk, etc. More generally, how far does sandhi extend in Na'vi?)
msg=102122 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 13:16:44 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
Well, William included some version of [desc="Do you like getting email from individual Na'vi students asking questions, or would you prefer to get them from a group all at once, like this?"]my question[/desc], and Karyu Pawl gave us [desc="Thanks for combining your questions. Yes, that helps a lot. Excellent idea."]an answer[/desc]. So now I have two more questions for our collective mind to ask:
1) What are the trial forms?
2) Can can normally transitive verbs be used intransitively, and if so, how?
Both questions have been answered already, but only in private email which the recipients do not wish to share. A public answer would be nice to have.
- Eri
msg=102362 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 16:12:33 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
First, Karyu Pawl said that he'll answer more of the questions in the first batch I sent him, so I'll give him some time to do that before sending off a new batch.
So, another question from me...
I'm about 95% confident that oe, when it takes suffixes, though still written oe, is pronounced we-. Is this correct, and if so, what are the rules?
msg=102446 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 16:59:54 | u=3552
Re: Combining our efforts
tigermind
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg102362#msg102362 date=1266423153]
I'm about 95% confident that oe, when it takes suffixes, though still written oe, is pronounced we-. Is this correct, and if so, what are the rules?
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure i read that the way this works is that oe sounds like "we" when a suffix adds another syllable to the word; so oel is still o•el, but oeru sounds like we•ru. But i'm afraid i don't remember where i got that idea, so i'll bow out and hope someone can confirm that.
Eywa ngahu
msg=102458 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:02:52 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg102446#msg102446 date=1266425994]I'm pretty sure i read that the way this works is that oe sounds like "we" when a suffix adds another syllable to the word; so oel is still o•el, [/quote]
Unfortunately, I hear oel quite distinctly as wel.
msg=102484 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:13:43 | u=971
Re: Combining our efforts
marger
My favourite example for this is when Karyu Frommer pronounced "Oeyä eana txìm atsawl"... that "oeyä" really sound like "oweya", or something like that...
msg=102501 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:20:10 | u=430
Re: Combining our efforts
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3577.msg102458#msg102458 date=1266426172]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg102446#msg102446 date=1266425994]I'm pretty sure i read that the way this works is that oe sounds like "we" when a suffix adds another syllable to the word; so oel is still o•el, [/quote]
Unfortunately, I hear oel quite distinctly as wel.
[/quote]
My non-linguist guess is that in a word composed of entirely vowels the vowels do not glide together as usual, but that's just a guess.
msg=103127 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 22:58:12 | u=1620
Re: Combining our efforts
dontbugme
i dont know where it has been discussed but i remmber that nobody had an answer:
how do you indicate the case for a quote with "san" and/or "sìk" ?
msg=103214 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 00:19:05 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
My guess is since it is a direct quote it would be treated as an independent sentence.
msg=103549 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 07:10:55 | u=1620
Re: Combining our efforts
dontbugme
so does that mean that you only quote sentences with san+sìk but not words ?
its seems reasonable, but ive seen it for single words quite often, and i dont know a rule about that.
msg=103601 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 08:38:56 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
Oh, I see what you're getting at. I'm not sure there, but again my guess is that it is still a direct quote, so whatever word the person said is stated exactly whether the ending on the word in your sentence is grammatically correct or not.
A possible question for the next batch for Frommer:
1. As a follow up to "where," If you were to say I don't know where to go, would you have to have to literally say "I don't know where I go to" since the a separates two clauses, or could you do some sort of subjunctive construction? Personally I think Oe ke omum tsengit a kivä sounds pretty cool.
msg=103876 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 13:38:34 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
san and sìk are always used for direct quotations. You could quote a sentence, or a single word, but whatever you quote is expressed in exactly the same way that the original speaker expressed it (or would have expressed it, if you're quoting hypothetically).
The clearest example we have is in [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]an email from Frommer[/url] (scroll down to the Jan 21 email labeled "How about ... How do you say X..."):
[quote]
Suppose the sentence is, "Eytukan said he would go, but I don't believe him."
Everything converts to direct speech, so it would be:
Poltxe Eytukan san oe kayä sìk, slä oel pot ke spaw.
[/quote]
Everything converts to direct speech, so "Eytukan said he would go" becomes "Eytukan said quote I will go unquote". Even if what Eytukan really said was "I want to ride my ikran and travel to the lands of the farthest tribes", when you're reporting what he said you phrase it as if you were repeating his directly spoken words, even though you're summarizing or interpreting rather than quoting precisely.
So with respect to quoting single words, you put them in whatever case the original speaker put them in (or hypothetical case the hypothetical speaker hypothetically put them in, if you're quoting hypothetically).
"Who did he say hunts hexapedes?" "He said 'Neytiri.'" Po poltxe san Neytiril sìk.
"What did he say Neytiri hunts?" "He said 'hexapedes.'" Po poltxe san ayerikit sìk.
"Welcome to Macdonald's Pandora, can I take your order?" "What's that first item on your menu?" "It says 'Hexapede McNuggets.'" Tsa plltxe san ayit yerikä sìk. It says quote bits of yerik unquote.
- Eri
msg=103918 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 14:04:40 | u=1620
Re: Combining our efforts
dontbugme
the thing with direct speech is clear, but if you see the the quoted phrase as an object you might think you need to write it that way:
Poltxe Eytukanìl sanit oe kayä sìk, slä oel pot ke spaw.
instead of the original
Poltxe Eytukan san oe kayä sìk, slä oel pot ke spaw.
i see that frommer didn't do it, but maybe it is needed/usefull to mark the case in other situations.
e.g. when there is a dative too, or with other verbs.
allthough i think it might sound a bit strange to add an acc. ending to another word than a noun.
msg=103942 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 14:29:26 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
Oh, okay. I see your point, but we don't mark noun phrases or verb phrases that are in the place of objects, so I don't think there's any reason to mark a quotation with -it either. And at any rate, I'm certain it would be wrong to add noun case markers to anything that's not a noun - we've never seen such a thing anywhere in the corpus.
But as far as Eytukan vs. Eytukanìl - that's an interesting observation; I don't think anyone's pointed that out before. It appears that "X says quote Y unquote" is an intransitive construction, much like the modal verbs can/must/want.
- Eri
msg=103968 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 14:58:18 | u=417
Re: Combining our efforts
Alìm Tsamsiyu
I'd really like an answer to my question noted [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/oeya-poya-poeya-poanya-adjectives/]here[/url].
About oeyä, ngeyä, poanyä, etc. and how we say mine, his, hers, yours, etc. (Possessive Pronouns).
I have an email likely drowning in his mailbox with this very question in it (that I sent JUST before finding this thread quite a while back), but the question may be more likely to be answered in the bulk batch.
Anyway, I just want to know! :)
Also - a question that I haven't found the answer to, but I reckon someone else here will without having to ask Dr. Frommer (but if not, include it as one of my question contributions):
Do we use the attributive -a- with numbers when they describe a noun? For example: Four Thanators - Falulukan atsìng / Tsìnga falulukan?
msg=103982 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 15:06:48 | u=1620
Re: Combining our efforts
dontbugme
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg100561#msg100561 date=1266337838]
Updated my list on page 2 to mark questions that have been answered. Now I jsut need to update it to include all the questions I haven't gotten around to adding yet.
[/quote]
maybe you should also indicate if there is allready a mail sent out cencerning that for each question
msg=103987 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 15:09:14 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=3577.msg103968#msg103968 date=1266505098]
Do we use the attributive -a- with numbers when they describe a noun? For example: Four Thanators - Falulukan atsìng / Tsìnga falulukan?
[/quote]
From [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/email-from-frommer-re-numbers-(or-the-full-number-chart!)/]Frommer's email about numbers[/url] we have 'Awa tìpawmìri one question, so the answer would seem to be "yes".
- Eri
msg=104088 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 16:19:54 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
Another question: do adpositions ever go with nouns that have a case marker, or will the nouns always be uninflected for case?
(I assume adpositions evict any case markers based on what we've seen so far, but Word from On High would be useful.)
msg=104141 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 17:00:34 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
I'm not sure if it was from Frommer or Karyu Amawey but someone said that adpositions behave like case markers when used post-positionally in which case it would be impossible.
Of course, word from on high would be great.
================
Ok, it's now been 17 days from when I sent my email and wm.annis got a reply so I think my email probably got lost in a spam folder or something.
Because of that I've decided to post my questions here:
The number system you have kindly given us implies that the Na’vi have some concept of multiplication and addition (they call 17 two eights and one), so what would they call these operations?
Following on from my previous question, do the Na’vi have any words for subtraction and division?
As the Na’vi do not seem to have any sort of currency there is unlikely to be any incentive for them to develop a theory of negative numbers to handle debts but they may have developed a concept of fractions, if so, what would they call these?
With infixes, in the language log article you described there as being two infix positions and a pre-first position. Is this pre-first position taken by the participial infix <us> as well as the reflexive? Also, might there be more infixes that also take this position and if so (or not), might it be helpful for us to think about it as three infix positions the first of which is rarely used rather than a pre-first position?
How does <ol> meld with tense infixes? Is it the same as <er> does for <a<r>m> and <ì<r>m>, also, does <er> continue this pattern for melding with <ìy> and <ay>?
If si can only be used as an auxiliary verb, what would be used for any other uses of the verb to do/make (although I can’t think of any right now, I’m sure some have come up on the forum).
How do you form passive participles (if you do at all).
Can fnu be used as an adjective for quiet?
The Na’vi don’t seem to have any form of currency or economy so money would be meaningless to them but do they have any vaguely equivalent term/practice similar to bartering (for the practice) or some form of expense or effort for the noun.
Does Na’vi have any words for the following yet: skull, tongue, burial, grave, the frame that Jake and Grace are tied to, the verbs to drown, to talk and to say (or the last two just plltxe?); name, old, footstep, it, foot and Polyphemus.
What does the <eng> in oe tsap'alute sengi mean?
================
There were a few other questions that have subsequently been sorted though.
msg=104540 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 20:53:12 | u=1620
Re: Combining our efforts
dontbugme
there are also some words that i thought would be nice to know
left, right
next, last
before, after
without
knife
jump(i could imagine that there might be more than 1 word for it)
i also wondered if the na'vi have a word for luck/badluck or if they express this in another way
another unclear thing are the prepositions
e.g. mì: has it only a local meaning? does it cover all local situations e.g. at home, on land(if atxke is understood 3dimenional wich might be likely since they move in 3 dimensions)?
msg=104645 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 21:34:01 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
Apparently directions are coming soon.
msg=104708 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 21:54:59 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
What makes you say that?
msg=104732 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 22:04:33 | u=430
Re: Combining our efforts
TehMightyPirate
Yeah, I should have posted that here. Frommer has told prrton (and us in general) that he's going to get us colors and directions soon among other things.
msg=104804 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 22:47:41 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
na vs. pxel
msg=104892 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 23:54:17 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3577.msg104732#msg104732 date=1266530673]
Frommer has told prrton (and us in general) that he's going to get us colors and directions soon among other things.
[/quote]
Cool!
That's very exciting. Both directions and colors offer a plethora of possibilities for further demonstration that the Na'vi way of thinking is exotic, interesting, and beautiful (which to my mind are the defining characteristics of the language).
Directions:
I like 'eylan na'viyä's observation about three dimensions: not only do the Na'vi commonly ride flying creatures, but they habitually move through through dense elevated foliage - climbing, jumping, dropping, and keeping a lookout both above and below. K. Pawl has said he hasn't considered the Na'vi culture in creating the language, but perhaps now is a good time for him to start. Could the Na'vi have no words for left and right? Might they make a distinction between directions on the ground, directions in the trees, and directions in the air? If they have cardinal directions, are they tied to Pandora's motion relative to Polyphemus, Alpha Centauri, or the celestial background? Or are they relative to landmarks instead? Could the words for direction also incorporate a concept of distance, similar to the way the five verbal tenses incorporate both direction (past/future) and distance (near/far)?
Colors:
When it comes to colors, Pawl could transcend not just human language, but human biology. The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term]variety of color terms[/url] in human languages is simultaneously very diverse (ranging from two to twelve "basic colors") and very predictable (the sequence of which colors are added when as a language evolves is nearly the same all over). This is probably because of the way the human eye works.
Now, based on the evidence of the film, Na'vi color vision is not particularly different from humans', because 1) we see things from Jake's avatar's perspective and things look pretty much the same, and 2) if Jake's avatar-vision were that different from his own, surely he would have mentioned it while on-camera; Cameron would have been sure to point it out to the audience if it were so. But even with that as a constraint: at the very least, the Na'vi (and avatars) are better able to see at night, and to notice the omnipresent bioillumination that makes up their night-time world. Instead of the basic color terms being variations of white/black/red/yellow/green/blue, maybe they see the world as "sunlight/shadow/living-light/darkness/blue-green/red-yellow/brown". Maybe the Na'vi have a biological capability to see a color distinction between things that are alive (plants and animals) and inanimate (stone, earth, metal), so that a brown rock and a brown tree trunk have different color words because they actually register as different colors to Na'vi eyes. Maybe there are colors (and color names) that can only be seen through tsaheylu.
================
Pawl has said Na'vi is made up of things already found in human languages, even though the combination is unique. Well, that was two months ago... he's since gone beyond that with the number system! Now, that may have been a natural, perhaps even obvious, thing to do, but I for one encourage him to keep it up and keep going even further! I don't know how much of this kind of stuff Pawl can do on his own versus needing Jim Cameron's input. I don't even know how interested he is in pushing things that far. But I can hope. And wait. And see.
- Eri
msg=105011 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 01:39:19 | u=3552
Re: Combining our efforts
tigermind
Ma Eri, i hope your prediction about Na'vi perception of color proves to be correct; it would add some wonderful depth to the language.
Eywa ngahu
msg=105490 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 13:06:07 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
Okay, I now have [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Trials_.26_transitivity]a public answer[/url] to my trial forms question, so here's my next contribution to the collective missive:
More native idioms, please?
... And yes, I see that [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/score!-(1)-the-verb-to-use-(2)-more-detail-on-teya-si/]we just got one[/url] ("oeru teya si"). Moar Plz?!?
- Eri
msg=106026 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 19:50:36 | u=664
Re: Combining our efforts
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=3577.msg104540#msg104540 date=1266526392]
there are also some words that i thought would be nice to know
...
before, after
...
[/quote]
I second this. I think there needs to be a little more temporal words. I think we have yesterday trram, but what about tomorrow? Also before, after, near, far in a temporal context is much needed to be able to talk about anything.
Larger issues of time are how do the Na'vi count time, in days? moon cycles? seasons? Can trram be anytime in the near past, or is it only specifically yesterday?
Also, in a slightly related query, it would be nice to have the word for "Birthday".
If someone else has mentioned any of this, just add my name to the list. Also, if we know any of these already, I'd love to know as well. :)
-Keyl
msg=106188 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:11:26 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
Has anyone else noticed that the more we know, the more we want to know?
Two months ago we were excited about [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/some-thoughts/]deriving *fì to mean "this"[/url]. Now we want to know about timekeeping (on two planets!), questions, directions, colors, idioms, abstract concepts, and Shakespeare.
We're hungry little falulukan, aren't we?
- Eri
msg=106192 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:13:59 | u=430
Re: Combining our efforts
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg106188#msg106188 date=1266613886]
Has anyone else noticed that the more we know, the more we want to know?
Two months ago we were excited about [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/some-thoughts/]deriving *fì to mean "this"[/url]. Now we want to know about timekeeping (on two planets!), questions, directions, colors, idioms, abstract concepts, and Shakespeare.
We're hungry little falulukan, aren't we?
- Eri
[/quote]
YOM YOM YOM!
msg=107468 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:02:52 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
Warning: high density linguo-babble ahead.
Confirm: tsa inanimate "it"; tsa- "that," regardless of animacy; tsay- "these" (with tsa- and lenited first consonant also possible). Genitive of tsa — tseyä?
What is the animacy hierarchy? Na;vi, humans, motile animals: po. What about plants? What about a tree? What about a Hometree?
Family words: is sa'nok sufficient to mean "my" mother most of the time, or must I use a possessive pronoun? Any dovetailing with inalienable possession, extending this to body parts, etc.?
Can I elide a repeated verb and let the case disposition take care of the rest? Ayvulit ngal tse'a, slä utralit oel, "you see the branches, but I (see) the tree."
It seems kelkune would work for "homeward." What about "at home"? Or "at" anywhere, actually.
Is -'u a productive affix for object nouns (yom'u for "food", say)? Inspired by lì'u.
msg=107515 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:29:49 | u=1620
Re: Combining our efforts
dontbugme
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=3577.msg106192#msg106192 date=1266614039]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg106188#msg106188 date=1266613886]
Has anyone else noticed that the more we know, the more we want to know?
Two months ago we were excited about [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/some-thoughts/]deriving *fì to mean "this"[/url]. Now we want to know about timekeeping (on two planets!), questions, directions, colors, idioms, abstract concepts, and Shakespeare.
We're hungry little falulukan, aren't we?
- Eri
[/quote]
YOM YOM YOM!
[/quote]
maybe we shouldt send too big packages too often and sort out only the most important/interesting questions for now
msg=107565 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:53:16 | u=0
Re: Combining our efforts
Swoka Swizaw
Simple: the adposition for "on (top of)." For one of the Na'vi quotes in my sig, I was forced to use the word, mì. First, I used kip, but that didn't feel right, so I settled on mì. Fìlì'u ke 'efu oeru mi eyawr.
By the way, I know that Na'vi is still the property of Faux, but has anyone ever thought of asking Frommer how much he has made? Like, he doesn't have to give us the specifics, but perhaps he can tell us whether or not he's yet come up with words for a large range of...colors, let's say. At least, give us confidence that if and when the flood gates open, we could expect Noah's flood behind it.
msg=107652 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 21:44:40 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
Na'vi is not the property of Fox. Or of Cameron. Or of Frommer, for that matter. You can't own a language, at least not under US copyright and patent law. They could trademark the name "Na'vi", though they haven't. But Frommer does need to work with Fox, and that's as important as legal ownership. We accord Frommer de facto ownership of Na'vi because we respect him and trust he'll do a better job with it than we would, and to keep the project from splintering.
msg=116459 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 00:17:22 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
A few things I was wondering about... Not sure if anyone has brought it up yet.
Can the causative be used with copulative verbs like "lu", "slu" and "tok"? What would be the correct usage?
As an ex. "Slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì" - you will become part of the people. Say someone was explaining what needed to be done, and ended by saying "And that will cause you to become part of the people" - Sleykayu tsakemìl nga? Na'viyä hapxìt" - what case does nga get there, does it become ngati or ngaru? Or is that simply not possible and instead you'd need to say "Tsakemta slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì"?
We have the lu + dative for possession... But what about slu + dative for get/recieve? (slu oeru tìpawm - I will get an answer?)
Can the pe prefix (/suffix) be used with any noun, or does it stick to the "question words"? Can you say, for example, "p(e)aylì'u" for "What words"? (Making a guess that in that form the e would be elided.)
msg=116554 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 01:28:38 | u=664
Re: Combining our efforts
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg116459#msg116459 date=1267143442]
A few things I was wondering about... Not sure if anyone has brought it up yet.
Can the causative be used with copulative verbs like "lu", "slu" and "tok"? What would be the correct usage?
As an ex. "Slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì" - you will become part of the people. Say someone was explaining what needed to be done, and ended by saying "And that will cause you to become part of the people" - Sleykayu tsakemìl nga? Na'viyä hapxìt" - what case does nga get there, does it become ngati or ngaru? Or is that simply not possible and instead you'd need to say "Tsakemta slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì"?
[/quote]
Sleyku is "to produce" in the wiktionary, so it is possible.
I don't know if it makes sense in your example sentence though.
-Keyl
msg=116664 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 03:08:26 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
[quote]"And that will cause you to become part of the people" - Sleykayu tsakemìl nga? Na'viyä hapxìt" - what case does nga get there, does it become ngati or ngaru? Or is that simply not possible and instead you'd need to say "Tsakemta slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì"?[/quote]
I believe it would take the accusative because, and correct me if I'm wrong here, in English a similar sentence breaks down as follows:
I became [desc=direct object]a monster[/desc] [desc=indirect object]to you[/desc] meaning "you now see me as a monster."
Maybe Na'vi works differently with slu though. It's definitely a good question to include in the next batch.
msg=116691 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 03:48:09 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg116554#msg116554 date=1267147718]
Sleyku is "to produce" in the wiktionary, so it is possible.
I don't know if it makes sense in your example sentence though.
-Keyl
[/quote]Right, that's why I included that example.
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg116664#msg116664 date=1267153706]
I became [desc=direct object]a monster[/desc] [desc=indirect object]to you[/desc] meaning "you now see me as a monster."
[/quote]Ngaru slolu oe vrrtep.
I became a monster(demon) to you
Though that strikes me as idiomatic to English.
msg=116713 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 04:16:54 | u=0
Re: Combining our efforts
jasgor9
[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=3577.msg71266#msg71266 date=1265081741]
Getting some words for emotions would be nice.
[/quote]
I agree.
msg=116816 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 06:25:50 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
Everything with "become" seems idiomatic to me in a way, except for your scenario and perhaps the following:
You made me become a member of the community/club.
Though we don't have words to translate this, I still tend to think "member" there is a D.O.
msg=116817 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 06:27:39 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
And so we're back around to my example, as you just gave the exact meaning of my example.
msg=116860 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:43:39 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
The circle of life...sorry couldn't help myself.
Ok, I'm still not going to speak for Na'vi, but I did find the following for English:
[url=http://www.enotes.com/grammar/q-and-a/what-subject-object-verb-these-questions-sentences-138013]http://www.enotes.com/grammar/q-and-a/what-subject-object-verb-these-questions-sentences-138013[/url]
I didn't have time to check his sourcing, but at least it's a starting point.
On a completely separate note, how do I attach a link to a word or phrase of my choosing? For example writing "become" and having it link to the site above?
msg=116864 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:57:43 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
That doesn't really clarify much except to agree that "become" in English is a linking verb (AKA copulative verb) which agrees with the known usage in Na'vi, and my example above, and that still leaves us with the question of how the causative infix applies there.
For links, simply click the "insert hyperlink" button, then instead of putting the URL in the middle, change the first "url" it gives you into "url=your/url/here", then add the text you want to see between the url and /url.
msg=116896 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 08:34:12 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Back on topic, another couple....
In Avatar, it sounds like Neytiri says "Oel pot tspìmìyang". Is this a mis-hearing, or is there really two tense infixes given to provide the "had been about to" phrasing?
Personal pronouns seem to like -eyä as the genitive suffix, but no other words we've seen get this treatment. It there some general rule we don't know, or is it really as simple as the pronouns get -eyä? If it's the latter, does that extend to gender suffixed, such as poeyä or poaneyä (Or as William suggested, poenyä, which nicely keeps the masculine and feminine versions the same number of syllables)?
msg=116919 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 08:58:15 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg116896#msg116896 date=1267173252]
In Avatar, it sounds like Neytiri says "Oel pot tspìmìyang". Is this a mis-hearing, or is there really two tense infixes given to provide the "had been about to" phrasing?
Personal pronouns seem to like -eyä as the genitive suffix, but no other words we've seen get this treatment. It there some general rule we don't know, or is it really as simple as the pronouns get -eyä? If it's the latter, does that extend to gender suffixed, such as poeyä or poaneyä (Or as William suggested, poenyä, which nicely keeps the masculine and feminine versions the same number of syllables)?
[/quote]
The double tense is clear in the German and Spanish dubs too: "I was just" (ìm) "about to" (ìy) "kill him".
I'd expect poeyä, poanä.
msg=116921 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 09:00:03 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Right, but I don't want to make assumptions at this point.
msg=117145 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 13:32:28 | u=21
Re: Combining our efforts
wm.annis
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg116896#msg116896 date=1267173252]Personal pronouns seem to like -eyä as the genitive suffix, but no other words we've seen get this treatment. [/quote]
I am 99% certain the -eyä analysis is incorrect. The pronouns take the usual -(y)ä, but sometimes take a vowel change in the stem, too. In the Language Log post, Frommer said that "changes to the noun base sometimes occur with the Genitive," so it seems better to think of nga > ngeyä as that sort of change, rather than as a new ending.
My worry is that there will be non-pronoun stems that undergo this change we haven't learned about.
msg=117484 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 17:12:44 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
You're probably right but it seems like it also brings back elided vowels, as in the oeng->oengeyä case, so it's more than just a simple vowel movement.
msg=117690 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:08:32 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
How do "si" based verbs work as far as modified parts of speech? I know we have "tsamsiyu" as one example, but is that just a James Cameron thing, or is that a normal construct for doer of si-verb? (And why is it tsamsiyu rather than just tsamtu?) How does the participle enter into this... For example if I wanted to say a "Helping person" or a "Filling meal", would it be based off the si verb form, or would it just be a modification of the root word... (lesrung / leteya?)
(This next two maybe someone here can answer rather than having to pass onto Karyu Pawl...)
What is the difference between "hawnu" and "tìhawnu si"?
For the name of the Na'vi "Golden rule" it uses tìrusey for the gerund form of live... Obviously tìrey in this sense is life. But at other times you have said to use the tì- nominilization to form a gerund, and gave "Tìtaron lu lehrrap" (hunting is dangerous) as an example. In other cases, the nominilized form is a different meaning as in the rey case, such as 'eyng = v. answer and tì'eyng = n. answer.
(Or am I just being English-only speaker dense again, and something like "an answering" and "an answer" are the same thing in other languages?)
msg=117738 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:29:58 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
I think you got it w your last suggestion.
Is there a "tìhawnu si"? I don't remember seeing it.
msg=117749 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:35:14 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Eytukan's last words. "Omatikayaru tìhawnu sivi"
msg=117761 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:38:43 | u=2873
Re: Combining our efforts
Skyinou
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg117690#msg117690 date=1267211312]
How do "si" based verbs work as far as modified parts of speech? I know we have "tsamsiyu" as one example, but is that just a James Cameron thing, or is that a normal construct for doer of si-verb? (And why is it tsamsiyu rather than just tsamtu?) How does the participle enter into this... For example if I wanted to say a "Helping person" or a "Filling meal", would it be based off the si verb form, or would it just be a modification of the root word... (lesrung / leteya?)
[/quote]
If tsamsìyu is not from Cameron, it is maybe because "tsam = war" is not an action, it's a concept. You can be "a person who hunt = taronyu" but not "a person who war = tsamyu".
As far as I can not find contrary examples, I would welcome those you can find. (With "tu" it seems different)
[quote]What is the difference between "hawnu" and "tìhawnu si"?[/quote]
First, do we know if "tìhawnu sì" exists?
[Edit]: Then from Eytukan words: "tìhawnu" can be the protection, and "tìhawnu sì = acting as a protection" and not "protect"? (With Neytiri being omitted because obvious)
The first one being intransitive (with dative for the one being protected), and the second one not.
"acting as a protection for/to someone" but "protecting someone from something"
[quote](Or am I just being English-only speaker dense again, and something like "an answering" and "an answer" are the same thing in other languages?)
[/quote]
I don't find a difference between "an answering" and "an answer" from my french point of view. You can translate directly "tì'useyng" into french, but it is not correct. It can be specificaly allowed sometimes, but normally not.
msg=117767 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:42:03 | u=971
Re: Combining our efforts
marger
Kaltxì!
"tìhawnu" would be an abstract noun derived from [desc=protect]hawnu[/desc], so it should mean protection...
But for what's the difference...
msg=117793 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:54:54 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3577.msg117761#msg117761 date=1267213123]
If tsamsìyu is not from Cameron, it is maybe because "tsam = war" is not an action, it's a concept. You can be "a person who hunt = taronyu" but not "a person who war = tsamyu".
As far as I can not find contrary examples, I would welcome those you can find. (With "tu" it seems different)[/quote]
I didn't give tsamyu though, I gave tsamtu. This is based off reltseotu = artist rather than reltseosiyu. The -tu suffix is (just like it looks) short for tute, so tsamtu would be literally "War person", like reltseotu is "picture-art-person".
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3577.msg117761#msg117761 date=1267213123]
[Edit]: Then from Eytukan words: "tìhawnu" can be the protector(I would see "hawnuyu" here, but can have a non-personal meaning. ex the shield.), and "tìhawnu sì = acting as the protector" and not "protect"? (With Neytiri being omitted because obvious)
[/quote]But "do/make/be/whatever protection to the clan" and "Protect the clan" are really the same thing... And the subtitle gave it as "Protect". (And the subject is omitted because it is a command/request more than anything else.)
As far as the answer vs answering thing...
"Ask me more questions, I enjoy answering!" Here, saying "answer" instead of "answering" would be incorrect in English.
Pivawm oeru nì'ul sìpawm, tì'useyng oeru prrte' lu!
(Alt w/o gerund form: Pivawm oeru nì'ul sìpawm, 'ereyng a fì'u oeru prrte' lu!)
Even if answer and the gerund answering are the same in Na'vi, that brings up the question of why tìrusey rather than tìrey as a translation of "Living".
msg=117844 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 20:24:10 | u=2873
Re: Combining our efforts
Skyinou
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg117793#msg117793 date=1267214094]
I didn't give tsamyu though, I gave tsamtu. This is based off reltseotu = artist rather than reltseosiyu. The -tu suffix is (just like it looks) short for tute, so tsamtu would be literally "War person", like reltseotu is "picture-art-person".[/quote]
Someone said in an other thread, that it was then like if "tseo" was given to people by Eywa. Comparing with spe'etu, which is captIVE and then kind of receiver/passive. I can't believe the Na'vi would do the same with "tsam = war", that's just awful!
[quote]But "do/make/be/whatever protection to the clan" and "Protect the clan" are really the same thing... And the subtitle gave it as "Protect". (And the subject is omitted because it is a command/request more than anything else.)[/quote]
"protect" and "defend"
[quote]As far as the answer vs answering thing...
"Ask me more questions, I enjoy answering!" Here, saying "answer" instead of "answering" would be incorrect in English.
Pivawm oeru nì'ul sìpawm, tì'useyng oeru prrte' lu!
[/quote]
Here you translate a verb by a noun. lit. "the fact of answering is a pleasure"
Then I think I see the difference you meant: "tì'useyng = the fact of answering" and "tì'eyng = the answer itself"
[quote]Even if answer and the gerund answering are the same in Na'vi, that brings up the question of why tìrusey rather than tìrey as a translation of "Living".
[/quote]
Because with just this it seems logical: "tìrey = life" , "rusey = living" then "tìrusey = the fact of living"
"Koren a’Awve tìRuseyä ’Awsiteng" is lit. "the first rule of the fact of living together"
msg=118153 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 22:59:07 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Spe'e is also a verb, not a noun, so it's already an exception to what Frommer gave as the usage.
And yes, in English the gerund is a noun form of the verb. So yes, that's the difference I meant. I wasn't disagreeing with the usage in life vs living, that would be silly since the words come from Frommer. I was just saying if it has to use <us> for living, why would other words be different and not have to? Not that I'm against a little irregularity in the language - it's like the linguistic equivalent of lense flare - something that in the real world is present with attempts to minimize, but in the CG world is purposely added to create realism. I'd just like to know what is irregular and what is the rules.
msg=118209 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 23:31:33 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg118153#msg118153 date=1267225147]
it's like the linguistic equivalent of lens flare
[/quote]
awesome
msg=118357 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 01:13:30 | u=3552
Re: Combining our efforts
tigermind
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg117749#msg117749 date=1267212914]
Eytukan's last words. "Omatikayaru tìhawnu sivi"
[/quote]
Maybe it's just a shade of meaning different? Like, maybe instead of "protect the people," it's more like "keep/make the people safe"...?
msg=118410 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 01:41:51 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
Right, which comes back to my question...
What is the difference in meaning?
msg=118623 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 07:01:07 | u=1120
Re: Combining our efforts
roger
We don't know. But hawnu is also glossed "shelter". So perhaps that is more literally protecting s.o. in the sense of shielding them, whereas tìhawnu si might be more abstract, acting as a protector.
msg=118662 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 08:46:04 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
You may be right
msg=119852 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 00:52:07 | u=3552
Re: Combining our efforts
tigermind
[quote author=roger link=topic=3577.msg118623#msg118623 date=1267254067]
We don't know. But hawnu is also glossed "shelter". So perhaps that is more literally protecting s.o. in the sense of shielding them, whereas tìhawnu si might be more abstract, acting as a protector.
[/quote]
That's what i was thinking, that hawnu was the physical act of protecting someone, whereas tìhawnu si would be, erm, make the people safe--that is, make it so that they are safe.
Completely unrelated, but has anybody asked Karyu Pawl to clarify how we use tsnì? I'm still mightily confused by that one.
msg=120342 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 12:09:01 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg119852#msg119852 date=1267318327]
Completely unrelated, but has anybody asked Karyu Pawl to clarify how we use tsnì? I'm still mightily confused by that one.
[/quote]
I think of it as that which you use when futa is not possible, because the primary verb is intransitive:
Oel fpìl futa poanìl tskot tìyìng poer
I think that he's about to give the bow to her
Oe ätxäle si tsnì poanìl tskot tivìng poer
I request that he give the bow to her
Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer
I hope that he'll give the bow to her
msg=120531 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 15:20:16 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
But what about fwa then?
I think fwa vs tsnì is on a similar level to na vs pxel.
That said, tsnì seems to be used with "hopey-type-verbs" (the only examples we have are with sìlpey and ätxäle [desc=IIRC]TOON[/desc]) so it may be used if there is an implied subjunctive in the second clause that wouldn't be clear with a normal modal infinitve <iv>.
msg=120555 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 15:34:39 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120531#msg120531 date=1267370416]
But what about fwa then?
I think fwa vs tsnì is on a similar level to na vs pxel.
[/quote]
Fwa (fì'u a) is the subjective counterpart to futa (fì'ut a), so it's not used in the same way.
Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan
It's clear to me that you've learnt much in visual art
("This thing is clear to me, namely that ...")
Fpìrmìl oel futa aynga natsew tsive’a fi’ut
I was just thinking that you'd want to see this
("I was just thinking this thing, namely that ...")
Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron
(I) request to have the Dream Hunt
("I request thus: ...")
So, to sum up: futa acts as the object of the primary verb (which must be transitive), fwa acts as the subject of the primary verb (which must not be transitive), and tsnì connects a subordinate clause to an intransitive primary verb. I think someone suggested the derivation tsa+nì: "that-ly", "thus".
msg=120570 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 15:41:33 | u=1485
Re: Combining our efforts
Erimeyz
That's an excellent explanation of a confusing (and frequently confused) subject. Is there canonical support for it?
- Eri
msg=120597 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 16:10:09 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3577.msg120570#msg120570 date=1267371693]
That's an excellent explanation of a confusing (and frequently confused) subject. Is there canonical support for it?
[/quote]
In the sense that this is how these forms are used in all canon occurrences, yes. The general structure is elaborated upon [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]here[/url] (Dec 27), including the "namely that" device.
msg=120710 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 17:06:51 | u=3552
Re: Combining our efforts
tigermind
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg120342#msg120342 date=1267358941]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg119852#msg119852 date=1267318327]
Completely unrelated, but has anybody asked Karyu Pawl to clarify how we use tsnì? I'm still mightily confused by that one.
[/quote]
I think of it as that which you use when futa is not possible, because the primary verb is intransitive:
Oel fpìl futa poanìl tskot tìyìng poer
I think that he's about to give the bow to her
Oe ätxäle si tsnì poanìl tskot tivìng poer
I request that he give the bow to her
Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer
I hope that he'll give the bow to her
[/quote]
Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Irayo, ma tsmukan. Okay, i retract my question; Karyu Pawl has quite enough on his plate.
msg=120872 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 18:21:15 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg120555#msg120555 date=1267371279]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120531#msg120531 date=1267370416]
But what about fwa then?
I think fwa vs tsnì is on a similar level to na vs pxel.
[/quote]
Fwa (fì'u a) is the subjective counterpart to futa (fì'ut a), so it's not used in the same way.
Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan
It's clear to me that you've learnt much in visual art
("This thing is clear to me, namely that ...")
Fpìrmìl oel futa aynga natsew tsive’a fi’ut
I was just thinking that you'd want to see this
("I was just thinking this thing, namely that ...")
Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron
(I) request to have the Dream Hunt
("I request thus: ...")
So, to sum up: futa acts as the object of the primary verb (which must be transitive), fwa acts as the subject of the primary verb (which must not be transitive), and tsnì connects a subordinate clause to an intransitive primary verb. I think someone suggested the derivation tsa+nì: "that-ly", "thus".
[/quote]
Fwa is not subjective. It is not a counterpart to futa at all. Tsnì is also used with intransitive verbs. The subjective counterpart to futa would not be consistent. In intransitive verbs, it would indeed be fwa, other times it would be fì'ul a or a contraction thereof.
Tsnì is probably the predicative equivalent, not the intransitive equivalent. Still, it would be nice to have this confirmed.
msg=120943 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 18:46:01 | u=1620
Re: Combining our efforts
dontbugme
Kaltxì
the following has been discussed here:
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/ay-me/?topicseen]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/ay-me/?topicseen[/url]
i think its worth beeing added to the list
when you want to say that many pairs of eyes see more than one pair, i thought you might say that this way in na'vi:
aymenari to menari kame txan
so the question is: can these prefixes be combined or how else could it be expressed in a good way?
msg=121343 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 21:11:06 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
As I commented in that other thread, me- is not "Pair of", in a sense of a set, it's just two. So "Many two eyes" - it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We'd probably need a word specifically for "pair" (Probably based off mune and teng somehow, something like munteng).
msg=121744 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:19:32 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120872#msg120872 date=1267381275]
Fwa is not subjective. It is not a counterpart to futa at all. Tsnì is also used with intransitive verbs. The subjective counterpart to futa would not be consistent. In intransitive verbs, it would indeed be fwa, other times it would be fì'ul a or a contraction thereof.
[/quote]
So you're basically saying that fwa is not the subjective counterpart to futa, except when it is? ;)
But yeah, it can only be used when the main verb is intransitive, otherwise the fì'u part would need to be in the ergative:
Tsu'tey zolup a fì'ul heykolangham Neytirit
That Tsu'tey fell made Neytiri laugh
I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...
As for tsnì also being used with intransitive verbs, the syntactic environment is different there. In sentences with things like fpìl futa ... or lu fwa ..., fì'u is acting as either the direct object or intransitive subject of the main verb. In a sentence like oe ätxäle si tsnì ..., the main verb already has a subject, and due to [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]its being intrinsically intransitive[/url] (Jan 21), it cannot have an accusative object. In the previous two cases the subordinate clause functions attributively to define fì'u, which in turn takes on the role as one of the core arguments of the main verb, but in the last case the SC lacks this explicit connection for the aforementioned reason -- and that's what tsnì is for.
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120872#msg120872 date=1267381275]
Tsnì is probably the predicative equivalent, not the intransitive equivalent.
[/quote]
I don't follow this. Explain, please?
msg=121755 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:27:22 | u=54
Re: Combining our efforts
Tiger
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg121744#msg121744 date=1267399172]
I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...
[/quote]I'm not so sure... How many times have you used "fì'ul a" in Na'vi? I don't think I ever have.
msg=121775 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:45:46 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3577.msg121755#msg121755 date=1267399642]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg121744#msg121744 date=1267399172]
I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...
[/quote]I'm not so sure... How many times have you used "fì'ul a" in Na'vi? I don't think I ever have.
[/quote]
Until now, never. :)
In fact, it took a while to come up with an example sentence that worked, so I'm also guessing that it doesn't occur much. I'm just saying that if it does, that particular contraction would not raise my eyebrows.
msg=122162 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 07:10:11 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
So to make sure I understand this, in the following Frommer sentence
[quote]Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si.[/quote]
He uses fwa and not tsnì because he is essentially saying "it fills me" where that entire phrase functions as a direct object. I'm not sure if it's possible to create a particular sentence with teya si where I would use tsnì, but if I could, what follows [desc=tsnì]it[/desc] would have to be a clause that could function as an independent sentence.
Correct?
msg=122196 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 08:11:45 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg121744#msg121744 date=1267399172]
So you're basically saying that fwa is not the subjective counterpart to futa, except when it is? ;)
I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...
As for tsnì also being used with intransitive verbs, the syntactic environment is different there. In sentences with things like fpìl futa ... or lu fwa ..., fì'u is acting as either the direct object or intransitive subject of the main verb. In a sentence like oe ätxäle si tsnì ..., the main verb already has a subject, and due to [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]its being intrinsically intransitive[/url] (Jan 21), it cannot have an accusative object. In the previous two cases the subordinate clause functions attributively to define fì'u, which in turn takes on the role as one of the core arguments of the main verb, but in the last case the SC lacks this explicit connection for the aforementioned reason -- and that's what tsnì is for.
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120872#msg120872 date=1267381275]
Tsnì is probably the predicative equivalent, not the intransitive equivalent.
[/quote]
I don't follow this. Explain, please?
[/quote]
1. Essentially. I was just pointing out that calling it the subjective counterpart can be misleading.
2. It's unlikely to have been contracted given how rarely it's used. I'd expect it to stay as fì'ul a
3. see 4.
4. It essentially the "non-accusative object" you described in 3. is called a predicate. If I say "He is a hunter", hunter is a predicative noun; if I say "you seem honest" honest is a predicative adjective; if I say "it seems that you are strong" then "that you are strong" is a predicative phrase, that said, in this case I'd use an inferential in lu instead but the point stands.
msg=122242 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 09:17:58 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=3577.msg122162#msg122162 date=1267427411]
So to make sure I understand this, in the following Frommer sentence
[quote]Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si.[/quote]
He uses fwa and not tsnì because he is essentially saying "it fills me" where that entire phrase functions as a direct object. I'm not sure if it's possible to create a particular sentence with teya si where I would use tsnì, but if I could, what follows [desc=tsnì]it[/desc] would have to be a clause that could function as an independent sentence.
Correct?
[/quote]
Intransitive subject, not direct object:
Fì'u a sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si
The independent clause is fì'u oeru teya si this thing fills me (with joy), and the subordinate clause defines the subject of this clause by way of a. It seems to me that the structure of the teya si idiom is always "X fills me", and not "[it] fills me that X", where you would need a dummy subject; therefore no tsnì.
msg=122251 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 09:38:25 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122196#msg122196 date=1267431105]
If I say "He is a hunter", hunter is a predicative noun; if I say "you seem honest" honest is a predicative adjective; if I say "it seems that you are strong" then "that you are strong" is a predicative phrase, that said, in this case I'd use an inferential in lu instead but the point stands.
[/quote]
Of course, but what does this have to do with sentences like these?
Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer
Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122196#msg122196 date=1267431105]
It essentially the "non-accusative object" you described in 3. is called a predicate.
[/quote]
I honestly cannot see how you could come to this conclusion.
msg=122264 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 10:01:53 | u=664
Re: Combining our efforts
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg120555#msg120555 date=1267371279]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg120531#msg120531 date=1267370416]
But what about fwa then?
I think fwa vs tsnì is on a similar level to na vs pxel.
[/quote]
Fwa (fì'u a) is the subjective counterpart to futa (fì'ut a), so it's not used in the same way.
Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan
It's clear to me that you've learnt much in visual art
("This thing is clear to me, namely that ...")
Fpìrmìl oel futa aynga natsew tsive’a fi’ut
I was just thinking that you'd want to see this
("I was just thinking this thing, namely that ...")
Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron
(I) request to have the Dream Hunt
("I request thus: ...")
So, to sum up: futa acts as the object of the primary verb (which must be transitive), fwa acts as the subject of the primary verb (which must not be transitive), and tsnì connects a subordinate clause to an intransitive primary verb. I think someone suggested the derivation tsa+nì: "that-ly", "thus".
[/quote]
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think. It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes. Like:
I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.
An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang.
or non-primary verb:
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.
Probably not the best examples, but would "fwa" be the subject of the primary verb in any of these sentences? [IANAL] Or do you think we should use fì'u a in these cases?
-Keyl
msg=122310 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 11:17:42 | u=2873
Re: Combining our efforts
Skyinou
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think. It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes. Like:
I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.
An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang.
[/quote]
With lu or slu, there is like two subject.
"oe lu skxawng" with free word order is either "i'm a moron" or "a moron is me", so in your two examples "fwa" act as the subject + "a".
msg=122472 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 15:09:06 | u=3552
Re: Combining our efforts
tigermind
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.
-Keyl
[/quote]
I love you a little <3
msg=122483 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 15:17:50 | u=195
Re: Combining our efforts
esoanem
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg122251#msg122251 date=1267436305]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122196#msg122196 date=1267431105]
If I say "He is a hunter", hunter is a predicative noun; if I say "you seem honest" honest is a predicative adjective; if I say "it seems that you are strong" then "that you are strong" is a predicative phrase, that said, in this case I'd use an inferential in lu instead but the point stands.
[/quote]
Of course, but what does this have to do with sentences like these?
Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer
Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122196#msg122196 date=1267431105]
It essentially the "non-accusative object" you described in 3. is called a predicate.
[/quote]
I honestly cannot see how you could come to this conclusion.
[/quote]
1. I was explaining how to use tsnì treating it as a predicate.
2. Just reread the wikipedia page and it turns out that I'm using it in [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_(grammar)]the traditional sense[/url] which may be causing the conclusion. Predicatives often behave like objects (e.g. with word order in non-free word order languages) when used with intransitive verbs.
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think. It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes. Like:
I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.
An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang.
or non-primary verb:
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.
Probably not the best examples, but would "fwa" be the subject of the primary verb in any of these sentences? [IANAL] Or do you think we should use fì'u a in these cases?
[/quote]
I was thinking this after I posted and have now come to the conclusion that thinking of tsnì as a seperate word or as any sort of equivalent to futa is fruitless.
It is now my opinion that tsnì is an just a function word used in certain sentences.
I mean, fwa can, as Keyl rightly points out, be used predicatively as well as subjectively but only in intransitive verbs. Futa is accusative and fì'ul a is subjective in transitive verbs. There are no gaps and so tsnì cannot be part of this set of words.
[desc=AFAIK]OOF[/desc] tsnì is only attested with sìlpey and ätxäle si. I propose that these are irregular formations.
msg=122612 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 16:41:51 | u=664
Re: Combining our efforts
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=3577.msg122310#msg122310 date=1267442262]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think. It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes. Like:
I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.
An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang.
[/quote]
With lu or slu, there is like two subject.
"oe lu skxawng" with free word order is either "i'm a moron" or "a moron is me", so in your two examples "fwa" act as the subject + "a".
[/quote]
I can't see how slu has two subjects, one has to be suboridante to the other or how would you sort out this:
A parrot became my friend != My friend became a parrot.
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122483#msg122483 date=1267456670]
I was thinking this after I posted and have now come to the conclusion that thinking of tsnì as a seperate word or as any sort of equivalent to futa is fruitless.
[/quote]
I think tsnì is needed in the intransitive sentence because there is no "fì'u" to attach the "a" to. I always thought that the fì'u couldn't be just thrown into a sentence where it doesn't have a place to legally live, just like you can't use the word "it" in the predacate of the sentence "I sleep".
-Keyl
msg=122773 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:03:27 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122264#msg122264 date=1267437713]
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think. It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes. Like:
I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.
An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang.
or non-primary verb:
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.
Probably not the best examples, but would "fwa" be the subject of the primary verb in any of these sentences? [IANAL] Or do you think we should use fì'u a in these cases?
[/quote]
That's a very valid point.
Neytiriyä tìyawn lu fwa (tsat) Tsu'teyìl new
Neytiri's love is that which Tsu'tey wants
The question then becomes to what extent the Na'vi would construct such utterances, and to what extent (if any) fwa is considered lexicalized or restricted to certain types of sentences. While it is true that we have only seen it in non-predicative situations so far, there should be no a priori reason to presume that it could not work in that way. As far as that goes, I stand corrected.
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122483#msg122483 date=1267456670]
I mean, fwa can, as Keyl rightly points out, be used predicatively as well as subjectively but only in intransitive verbs. Futa is accusative and fì'ul a is subjective in transitive verbs. There are no gaps and so tsnì cannot be part of this set of words.
[/quote]
Precisely. However:
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122612#msg122612 date=1267461711]
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122483#msg122483 date=1267456670]
I was thinking this after I posted and have now come to the conclusion that thinking of tsnì as a seperate word or as any sort of equivalent to futa is fruitless.
[/quote]
I think tsnì is needed in the intransitive sentence because there is no "fì'u" to attach the "a" to. I always thought that the fì'u couldn't be just thrown into a sentence where it doesn't have a place to legally live, just like you can't use the word "it" in the predacate of the sentence "I sleep".
[/quote]
That's just it: when any variant of fì'u cannot be inserted, but there should still be a connection between the primary verb and a secondary clause, tsnì can be the way to go. To exemplify:
Oel new futa kivä ne kelku
I want to go home
Oel sìlpey futa ayoe kìyevä ne kelku ye'rìn
Oe sìlpey tsnì ayoe kìyevä ne kelku ye'rìn
I hope that we'll go home soon
In this sense (and this sense only), I think tsnì could be thought of as corresponding to futa.
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3577.msg122483#msg122483 date=1267456670]
[desc=AFAIK]OOF[/desc] tsnì is only attested with sìlpey and ätxäle si. I propose that these are irregular formations.
[/quote]
Let me throw out some other formations and see what happens:
Oe txopu si tsnì fkol Kelutralit skiva'a
I'm afraid that Hometree might be destroyed
Oe tìng nari tsnì Eytukanìl tsperang yerikit
I observe Eytukan's killing a hexapede
Oe fmayi tsnì zong awngeyä olo'it
I will try to save our clan
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters
Could any of those work? Why? Why not?
It may well be so that the group of verbs with which tsnì can be used is very (or even extremely) limited, and that we don't get to see or use it very often.
msg=122834 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:28:45 | u=664
Re: Combining our efforts
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg122773#msg122773 date=1267466607]
Oe fmayi tsnì zong awngeyä olo'it
I will try to save our clan
[/quote]
I think this is the only one that might not work, if only because I have no frelling clue how to use fmi correctly. (add it to the list!) Personally, I hope it is transitive, but if it is not I would say:
Oe fmayi fte (tsivun) zivong awngeyä olo'it
I will try to save our clan
[quote]
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters
[/quote]
I was just thinking that *fura (or whatever "fì'ur + a" becomes, if anything) might be fun here... if there were such a thing.
-Keyl
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg122472#msg122472 date=1267456146]
I love you a little <3
[/quote]
Haha, thanks, I'm just glad someone got the reference. ;D
msg=122850 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:35:15 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122834#msg122834 date=1267468125]
I have no frelling clue how to use fmi correctly[/quote]
Me neither! ;)
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122834#msg122834 date=1267468125]
[quote]
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters
[/quote]
I was just thinking that *fura (or whatever "fì'ur + a" becomes, if anything) might be fun here... if there were such a thing.
[/quote]
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]There is[/url]: (Jan 20)
Furia ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole', ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan
msg=122858 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:40:52 | u=3552
Re: Combining our efforts
tigermind
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=3577.msg122850#msg122850 date=1267468515]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122834#msg122834 date=1267468125]
I have no frelling clue how to use fmi correctly[/quote]
Me neither! ;)
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3577.msg122834#msg122834 date=1267468125]
[quote]
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters
[/quote]
I was just thinking that *fura (or whatever "fì'ur + a" becomes, if anything) might be fun here... if there were such a thing.
[/quote]
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Extracts_from_various_emails]There is[/url]: (Jan 20)
Furia ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole', ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan
[/quote]
That's not the same thing. Furia is a contraction of Fì'uri a; i think tsmukan Keyl is getting at Fì'ur(u) a--srake?
msg=122895 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 18:58:14 | u=2788
Re: Combining our efforts
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3577.msg122858#msg122858 date=1267468852]
That's not the same thing. Furia is a contraction of Fì'uri a; i think tsmukan Keyl is getting at Fì'ur(u) a--srake?
[/quote]
Ah! I did indeed misread that. Oeru txoa livu.
msg=123252 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 21:51:04 | u=1225
Re: Combining our efforts
neotrekkerz
[quote]Intransitive subject, not direct object:[/quote]
Yes, of course. Had a "special" moment there.
msg=131161 | topic=3577 | board=99 | time=2010-03-06 11:42:53 | u=631
Re: Combining our efforts
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]A request to the mods
Can somebody please insert the discussion on fwa, futa and tsnì into the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/futa-fwa-tsni-a-help!/]related thread[/url]? Makes it easier to find.
Very confusing to find that here - even if some of it is speculation and conjecture...
Irayo :)
msg=71064 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:42:14 | u=2649
The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tiriuä
I sent an email to Frommer inquiring about the reflexive infix and he responded! Here's a copy of the email:
[quote]Kaltxì ma oeyä 'eylan,
Thanks for the questions, Jake. (Good name for someone who likes Avatar!)
I guess I haven't mentioned anything about the reflexive yet. Here's a quick explanation:
The reflexive is formed with an infix -äp- that's in "pre-first" position--that is, it comes before the familiar infixes in first position.
So:
I see myself. = Oe tsäpe'a.
Note: There's no pronoun "myself"--all you need is the infix. And it's oe, not oel.
You've seen yourself. = Nga tsäpole'a.
Be careful to keep the stress in the original place. Since for tse'a the stress is on the final a, that's where it stays in all the inflected forms.
They'll see themselves. = (Ay)fo tsäpaye'a.
wash = yur
So:
I wash myself. = Oe yäpur.
I'm washing myself. = Oe yäperur.
Tslolam srak? :-)
As for "My name is . . ."
You COULD say
Tstxo oeyä lu ___.
tstxo = name
But that's not the idiomatic way to say it. Instead, you say "They call me . . ." (which is of course common in many earth languages as well).
The grammar here is tricky:
Oeru syaw fko ___.
Things to note:
syaw 'call' is intransitive: you call TO someone. That's why it's fko, not fkol, and oeru, not oeti. (Fko, as I think you know, means 'one' or 'they' in the general sense.) The actual name as almost like an adverb in this construction: To say "My name is Jake," you actually say something like, "They call to me in a Jake way." :-)
The question, by the way, is:
Fyape fko syaw ngar?
Literally: How does one call you?
So a typical little conversation is:
--Fyape fko syaw ngar?
--Oeru syaw fko Neytiri. Ngaru tut?
--Oeru syaw Tseyk.
In the last sentence, "fko" is understood. You could actually leave it out in the 2nd sentences as well. Ngar and ngaru are used interchangeably--pick the one you think sounds better in its position. And "tut" is a "particle of continuation"--here you'd translate "ngaru tut" as "And how about you?"
Hope that helps! Feel free to share . . .
Kìyevame.
Pawl
[/quote]
So alot of questions answered! That reflexive infix and how someone would introduce themselves with their name!
msg=71071 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:47:11 | u=3431
Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
demonmaestro
oootttttzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!
msg=71080 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:52:26 | u=21
Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
wm.annis
Suh-weet!
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Reflexives_and_Naming]Canonified[/url].
The yur wash example is very suggestive of some interesting transitivity matters.
msg=71083 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:53:47 | u=2325
Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
suomichris
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3589.msg71080#msg71080 date=1265071946]
Suh-weet!
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Reflexives_and_Naming]Canonified[/url].
The yur wash example is very suggestive of some interesting transitivity matters.
[/quote]Weeeeeee!
And, yeah, looks like the reflexive is both reflexivizing and reducing the valency of the verb. Not surprising, I suppose, but cool!
msg=71085 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:57:28 | u=2649
Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tiriuä
Yeah it is so exciting...and the introductions using names too! Paul Frommer is the best!
msg=71086 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 00:57:35 | u=21
Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
wm.annis
Oh, gosh — tut is very interesting, too.
I've been using Ulte ngaru srak? as a followup to being asked how I am via ngaru lu fpom srak. Looks like ngaru tut will work for that, too.
msg=71099 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 01:02:08 | u=664
Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3589.msg71086#msg71086 date=1265072255]
Oh, gosh — tut is very interesting, too.
I've been using Ulte ngaru srak? as a followup to being asked how I am via ngaru lu fpom srak. Looks like ngaru tut will work for that, too.
[/quote]
Tut is definitely interesting! (says the guy who loves particles) :)
-Keyl
msg=71117 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 01:16:28 | u=54
Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tiger
Sweet, I can finally stop telling people not to use "syaw" for giving their name, and start telling them how to do it correctly!
msg=71166 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 01:54:04 | u=2649
Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tiriuä
Yeah the name thing is huge!
msg=71254 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:29:48 | u=1485
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Erimeyz
SCOOOOOOORE!
msg=71277 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:39:18 | u=1317
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
manly squeeeeeeeeee!
msg=71279 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:42:29 | u=282
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Java
Is this rule going to be added to the pocket guide or other grammar guides? I hope so :)
msg=71283 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:44:21 | u=2649
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tseyk Tiriua
I'm sure it will be added shortly (they are good with this kind of stuff).
msg=71288 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 03:46:44 | u=42
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
omegaorb
Excellent, great to know I can now properly introduce myself :) Its been bugging me for a while.
msg=71327 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 04:05:54 | u=2649
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tseyk Tiriua
Yes haha enough of that poorly slapped together intro grammar! xD
msg=71602 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 08:38:27 | u=1244
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Eight
New merchandise idea...
"We <3 Frommer"
I've never needed the reflexive yet but I feel strangely warm inside now that I know it's here. It's like a little part of me that was missing has just found its own way back.
msg=71636 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 09:51:17 | u=631
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Great!
I've noticed now a lot of specific sentence construction (idioms? phrases?) with "my name is...", "I love you" and "I have" and I'm sure I'm missing out on others - has anyone tried to collect them to put them into a document?
Other thing that I noticed - Frommer calls it pre-first position. Does that speak against the theory (I don't know who came up with it in the first place) of3 infix positions?
msg=71643 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 09:56:55 | u=54
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tiger
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3589.msg71636#msg71636 date=1265104277]
[font=Garamond]Great!
I've noticed now a lot of specific sentence construction (idioms? phrases?) with "my name is...", "I love you" and "I have" and I'm sure I'm missing out on others - has anyone tried to collect them to put them into a document?
Other thing that I noticed - Frommer calls it pre-first position. Does that speak against the theory (I don't know who came up with it in the first place) of3 infix positions?
[/quote]
That's actually a [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/navi-expressions-and-idioms/]very good idea[/url]... :D I figured with how many expressions we have at this point, it was about time to think about such a collection.
And about the 2 vs 3 infix positions, Frommer has always called it two, because there are two positions. The penultimate and the ultimate syllable positions. The 3 positions is just adding a third label. IMO it's not a good idea, but I'm sure I've made that clear in my other thread. I'm not sure if it will be possible to convince the people teaching it that it is a bad idea though.
msg=71666 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 10:30:55 | u=1120
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3589.msg71643#msg71643 date=1265104615]
And about the 2 vs 3 infix positions, Frommer has always called it two, because there are two positions. The penultimate and the ultimate syllable positions. The 3 positions is just adding a third label. IMO it's not a good idea, but I'm sure I've made that clear in my other thread. I'm not sure if it will be possible to convince the people teaching it that it is a bad idea though.
[/quote]
That may depend on how much we know about the language. When all we knew of position 1 / pre-1 was the participle, which we still don't know how to use properly, calling that "position 1" and the TAM markers "position 2" was a way to keep things separated. Now that we can start inflecting verbs on our own with both "pre-1" and TAM, we can create enough examples to illustrate the diff, and pretending there are 3 separate infix positions is IMO no longer required. We can just say that when TAM and non-TAM are both used, non-TAM comes first; when two TAM markers are used, aspect infixes into tense and both infix into mood, and that when two tense markers are used, AFAIK they go in temporal order. That's just a way of juggling multiple infixes in position 1, a problem that does not occur w position 2 because only one infix can occur there at a time.
msg=71670 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 10:39:35 | u=54
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tiger
We know as much about the participle now as we did then though. The only thing we know now that we didn't know then is how subjunctive and tense meld, and what the reflexive infix is. The rest we either had a correct assumption about or still don't know. The participle being pre-first, for example, is based on a statement from Frommer that is unclear at best.
msg=71698 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:05:17 | u=1120
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=3589.msg71670#msg71670 date=1265107175]
We know as much about the participle now as we did then though. The only thing we know now that we didn't know then is how subjunctive and tense meld, and what the reflexive infix is. The rest we either had a correct assumption about or still don't know. The participle being pre-first, for example, is based on a statement from Frommer that is unclear at best.
[/quote]
But we now have the reflexive in pre-1st, and we know how and when to use that -- at least in clear cases.
msg=71707 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 11:19:00 | u=54
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tiger
Right, but we KNEW reflexive was pre-first already, we just didn't know what the infix was or how to use it. So reserving a spot JUST for something we didn't even know seems a little silly. The participle MAY be pre-first, but it may also be first. We know the infix, but we don't know the details of it's use, so again reserving a spot for it seems a little silly.
msg=72347 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 16:20:16 | u=132
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Taronyu
[quote author=Tseyk Tìriuä link=topic=3589.msg71283#msg71283 date=1265082261]
I'm sure it will be added shortly (they are good with this kind of stuff).
[/quote]
Cheers.
I'll put this in mine later. Got stuff to do, currently.
msg=72545 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 17:32:21 | u=195
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
esoanem
I knew I should have read the second page of this thread before checking to see if it was in the dictionary. :-[
Sorry, I posted this in the dictionary thread.
Anyway, squueeeeeeeeeeeee!!!! Three more idioms!!!!!
msg=73507 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 00:26:24 | u=2649
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tseyk Tiriua
I didn't want to bombard Frommer with 50 questions those confused about infixes. For now this is a gold mine of information. xD
msg=79729 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 02:55:47 | u=3552
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
tigermind
Okay, so i have a question about using the reflexive: Any thoughts on how we would differentiate between "we see ourselves" vs. "we see each other"?
msg=79877 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 05:23:36 | u=1120
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
roger
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3589.msg79729#msg79729 date=1265424947]
Okay, so i have a question about using the reflexive: Any thoughts on how we would differentiate between "we see ourselves" vs. "we see each other"?
[/quote]
That's the $64 question.
msg=79894 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 05:48:53 | u=664
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3589.msg79729#msg79729 date=1265424947]
Okay, so i have a question about using the reflexive: Any thoughts on how we would differentiate between "we see ourselves" vs. "we see each other"?
[/quote]
Hmmmm, I don't think that "we see each other" is reflexive, it's reciprocal. Until we have a formation for "each other" or "one another", I think you'll just have to spell it out, i.e:
Oel ngati kame ulte/tengfya/tengkrr ngal oeti kame. or something like that.
-Keyl
msg=79915 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 06:33:09 | u=2649
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tseyk Tiriua
We see each other isn't reflexive...this is for things like "we see ourselves" only.
msg=80607 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 16:16:59 | u=3552
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
tigermind
Okay, okay, reciprocal is not reflexive--don't shoot the neuro student =)
msg=80735 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 17:37:56 | u=2649
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tseyk Tiriua
Haha alright we won't...this time
msg=81582 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 01:16:27 | u=1120
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
roger
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=3589.msg80607#msg80607 date=1265473019]
Okay, okay, reciprocal is not reflexive--don't shoot the neuro student =)
[/quote]
But there are plenty of languages that use it as one. That might be a little too European to be in Na'vi, but you never know.
msg=81780 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 04:04:19 | u=3832
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
obiwan1
That's a great new addition ;D
msg=81829 | topic=3589 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 05:10:42 | u=2649
Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
Tseyk Tiriua
I know I was so excited when he emailed me back xD
msg=71184 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:10:38 | u=2046
A new word for dictionary?
Utral Aymokriyä
Kaltxì ma smuk.
tsawlapxangrr = tall large root.
if,
tsawl = tall
apxa = large
so,
ngrr = root?
any critics?
msg=71189 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 02:14:52 | u=21
Re: A new word for dictionary?
wm.annis
Words sometimes get clipped when they are put into compounds. Ngrr might be good, but it could be missing some parts, too.
msg=71661 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 10:25:23 | u=631
Re: A new word for dictionary?
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]I was thinking about that as well the last time I went through the dictionary, ma Utrayä, and discarded the idea for the same reason that William gave.
But I don't know. Ask Taronyu, he's the Master of the Diction-ized Words ;) Derivations can always be marked by *
If people take it as a given is their choice.
Kìyevame
msg=71800 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 12:17:51 | u=132
Re: A new word for dictionary?
Taronyu
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=3598.msg71661#msg71661 date=1265106323]
But I don't know. Ask Taronyu, he's the Master of the Diction-ized Words ;) Derivations can always be marked by *
If people take it as a given is their choice.
[/quote]
No need to ask. I've added it. Can't believe I missed that, myself.
msg=72309 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 16:06:22 | u=2046
Re: A new word for dictionary?
Utral Aymokriyä
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=3598.msg71800#msg71800 date=1265113071]Can't believe I missed that, myself.
[/quote]
Thats because you are a human lol :D
There are almost 700 words in the dictionary and its quite normal u missed it.
Thank you for your doing this, im glad if i did a good thing to help people who works in this Na´vi growing thing for us.
Thank you all :)
msg=73021 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-02 21:05:52 | u=1011
Re: A new word for dictionary?
Kiliyä
Could also be angrr or engrr or ängrr.
msg=82391 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 14:07:00 | u=3845
Re: A new word for dictionary?
ikngopyu
Kaltxì, ma smukan sì smuke, ulte Eywa ayngahu !
I was wondering how the word "iknimaya", which is composed of the word "ik" that means "heaven, sky or mountain", could be analysed. In fact, in Taronyu dictionary's (which is my new Na'vi bible ^^), we have :
[quote]*ik: [ik^] D n. heaven, sky, mountain derived
from ik-ni-maya stairway to heaven and
ikran walks the sky
Iknimaya: [iknimaja] C;S prop.n. Stairway to
Heaven, the rite of passage for young Na’vi[/quote]
So "ik-ni-maya" could be translate as "stairway to heaven/sky/mountain". Moreover, in [url=http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Iknimaya]http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Iknimaya[/url] , they say that "iknimaya" means "path to heaven".
Then, could "ik-ni-maya" be constructed of :
ik = heaven, sky, mountain
ni = ne: [nE] S prep. to, towards
maya = path
irayo !
msg=82674 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 16:45:07 | u=3845
Re: A new word for dictionary?
ikngopyu
In Taronyu dictionary's, some "tì–" noun deriving affix are included, like tìpawm or tìspxin. Why not adding tìsteftxaw, from steftxaw ?
msg=82936 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 18:44:19 | u=195
Re: A new word for dictionary?
esoanem
[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=3598.msg82391#msg82391 date=1265551620]
ik = heaven, sky, mountain
ni = ne: [nE] S prep. to, towards
maya = path
[/quote]
Maybe -ni is the post-positional allomorph of ne, AFAIK the only examples of ne we have attested are prepositional ones.
msg=83147 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:08:55 | u=1120
Re: A new word for dictionary?
roger
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3598.msg82936#msg82936 date=1265568259]
[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=3598.msg82391#msg82391 date=1265551620]
ik = heaven, sky, mountain
ni = ne: [nE] S prep. to, towards
maya = path
[/quote]
Maybe -ni is the post-positional allomorph of ne, AFAIK the only examples of ne we have attested are prepositional ones.
[/quote]
It would have to be for that word. We have terìran ayoe ayngane "we are walking your way".
Where do we attest to ne as a prep?
msg=83182 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:23:42 | u=195
Re: A new word for dictionary?
esoanem
When did we get that phrase.
Having looked through the corpus we don't have any attested examples of -ne- anywhere. :-[
msg=83187 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:26:09 | u=21
Re: A new word for dictionary?
wm.annis
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=3598.msg83182#msg83182 date=1265574222]When did we get that phrase.[/quote]
From the ASG — the Hunt Song.
msg=83189 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:27:24 | u=195
Re: A new word for dictionary?
esoanem
Ok, that would explain why it's not in the corpus despite being known to be correct. (copyright right?)
msg=83237 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 20:47:24 | u=132
Re: A new word for dictionary?
Taronyu
[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=3598.msg82391#msg82391 date=1265551620]
Kaltxì, ma smukan sì smuke, ulte Eywa ayngahu !
I was wondering how the word "iknimaya", which is composed of the word "ik" that means "heaven, sky or mountain", could be analysed. In fact, in Taronyu dictionary's (which is my new Na'vi bible ^^), we have :
[quote]*ik: [ik^] D n. heaven, sky, mountain derived
from ik-ni-maya stairway to heaven and
ikran walks the sky
Iknimaya: [iknimaja] C;S prop.n. Stairway to
Heaven, the rite of passage for young Na’vi[/quote]
So "ik-ni-maya" could be translate as "stairway to heaven/sky/mountain". Moreover, in [url=http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Iknimaya]http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Iknimaya[/url] , they say that "iknimaya" means "path to heaven".
Then, could "ik-ni-maya" be constructed of :
ik = heaven, sky, mountain
ni = ne: [nE] S prep. to, towards
maya = path
[/quote]
Due to the nature of ni, it's hard to tell whether it actually out to be ne. I've thought about it, but decided not to include it in my dictionary.
This has been brought up before, on the original [url=http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1977]Frommer's blog post[/url].
msg=83363 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 21:50:22 | u=3845
Re: A new word for dictionary?
ikngopyu
Ayngeyä tì’eynga tìpawmìri ayngaru seiyi oe irayo ! (I hope that's correct :) )
msg=83484 | topic=3598 | board=99 | time=2010-02-07 23:32:00 | u=73
Re: A new word for dictionary?
Prrton
[quote author=Utrayä Mokri link=topic=3598.msg71184#msg71184 date=1265076638]
Kaltxì ma smuk.
tsawlapxangrr = tall large root.
if,
tsawl = tall
apxa = large
so,
ngrr = root?
any critics?
[/quote]
I think that ngrr could easily be the root of "root" or even the whole word. Hard to say. The similarity with prrnen ("infant") and prrnesyul ("bud" of a plant) is one of the factors that leads me to think it likely. But, I'm not sure, of course. ;)
msg=73716 | topic=3699 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 05:00:06 | u=21
MOVED: Some fixings in the Dictionary
wm.annis
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=3696.0[/iurl]
msg=75280 | topic=3751 | board=99 | time=2010-02-03 22:05:47 | u=54
MOVED: Word for Sorry
omängum fra'uti
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=12]Vocab / Phrases[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=3750.0[/iurl]
msg=79876 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 05:22:36 | u=1120
new interview
roger
Looks like a new interview is coming up in a few hours:
[url=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/stories/2010/2810226.htm]http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/stories/2010/2810226.htm[/url]
Hopefully it will be archived for those of us who miss it!
msg=79886 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 05:38:42 | u=664
Re: new interview
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=roger link=topic=3914.msg79876#msg79876 date=1265433756]
Looks like a new interview is coming up in a few hours:
[url=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/stories/2010/2810226.htm]http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/stories/2010/2810226.htm[/url]
Hopefully it will be archived for those of us who miss it!
[/quote]
[url=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/]http://www.abc.net.au/rn/linguafranca/[/url] Top link.
No new words, but he talks about us! :)
-Keyl
msg=79984 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 08:10:48 | u=1485
Re: new interview
Erimeyz
What an incredible accent the host has! Just astonishing, and beautiful. To my woefully pedestrian American ears, an "Australian" accent is this monolithic caricature of Crocodile Dundee and the voiceover announcer for Outback Steakhouse commercials. Ms. Zijlstra, however, combines the distinctive (can I say "quirky" and not be hated?) Australian vowel sounds with the silky-smooth cadence and refined diction that I've come to expect from the best hosts on National Public Radio. Delightful!
... okay, sorry. I now return you to your regularly scheduled swooning over Dr. Frommer. :)
- Eri
msg=79997 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 08:24:53 | u=1
Re: new interview
Seabass
I'm in love with the host's accent.
Also, smallish transcription of his plug for our site. LearnNavi plug starts around 6:20
[quote]
Do you converse with anyone in it, or do you talk to yourself, or is there somebody else who you chat with in it?
Well, at this point, in terms of aural practice, I really don't have anyone. However, what's absolutely extraordinary, and what I find astonishing, is that I am getting people writing me emails in Na'vi. And this is something I never expected. You know, there is a certain amount of information that's out there, some which the studio put out themselves. And I've explained a few things in various formats to various journalists and so on.
So, given that—and also given a book that the studio published, which had a small version of the dictionary in it—there are people who have been working like crazy, trying to master the language, and it's been quite remarkable. Some of them are really good!
You sound surprised.
Well, I frankly never thought that there would be that much interest in the language. But there is now a website, which I had nothing to do with.. and the studio had nothing to do with, it was purely created by the fans: to help each other learn the language, which—last time I checked—had something around 58,000 (fifty-eight thousand) posts. And there are sub-forums on that website in, I think, 15 (fifteen) different languages. Really quite amazing.
Well, yes and no, because, it it isn't just weirdo people and professors of linguistics who like language. All of us have this incredible facility for languages... that's really the benchmark for—
Yes.
—being a human being. And so, and there are of course heaps of invented languages written for make-belief communities of beings, and some of them are in books like Tolkien's Quenya or Elvish. And in movies, you know, most famously the language used in Star Trek.
Klingon, of course.
[etcetc]
[/quote]
msg=80561 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 15:50:10 | u=21
Re: new interview
wm.annis
I love that the interviewer was so fastidious about getting the glottal stop in Na'vi correct.
msg=83784 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-08 04:56:25 | u=430
Re: new interview
TehMightyPirate
WOW! This is great. I honestly would love to pick Frommer's brain about all this, he seems like such a wonderful guy. Thanks for the link.
I noticed he mentioned the 58,000 posts (where as we have 80,000 right now) which leads me to believe that he's been lurking around here somewhere. Most interesting...HI FROMMER! :)
EDIT: Wow, right at the very end I see what you mean. Her pronunciation of Na'vi and eywa ngahu were damn good for someone who's never learned any Na'vi before, props to her.
msg=88070 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 06:39:44 | u=134
Re: new interview
vidvamp01
He is probably using a guest access, so that he can lurk anonymous.
The curiosity about what we are doing here must be entertaining for him just a little. =)
msg=88103 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 07:24:00 | u=465
Re: new interview
Hysvear
Outstanding! This is awesome.
msg=90200 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 03:09:02 | u=3993
Re: new interview
Lazureus
What a great interview.. Especially when hearing the Greeting in Na'vi from the man himself.
msg=91091 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 18:10:49 | u=699
Re: new interview
Doryban
Damn... No verbs? At all?
How does it nake sense? I would like to hear it ;D
msg=91124 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 18:29:51 | u=1485
Re: new interview
Erimeyz
[quote author=Ayzìsìt Alenantang link=topic=3914.msg91091#msg91091 date=1265911849]
Damn... No verbs? At all?
How does it nake sense? I would like to hear it ;D
[/quote]
Start [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%93len]here[/url]. Have fun!
- Eri
msg=91748 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-11 23:13:35 | u=1244
Re: new interview
Eight
Anyone know anything about the BBC Radio program he mentions he was on with Marc Okrand?
Might still be on the iPlayer for all us UKians.
msg=91963 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 01:36:05 | u=1120
Re: new interview
roger
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=3914.msg91124#msg91124 date=1265912991]
[quote author=Ayzìsìt Alenantang link=topic=3914.msg91091#msg91091 date=1265911849]
Damn... No verbs? At all?
How does it nake sense? I would like to hear it ;D
[/quote]
Start [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%93len]here[/url]. Have fun!
- Eri
[/quote]
There are no lexical verbs, but it looks like it has what are effectively auxiliary verbs. The tense, transitivity, and person marking we expect of verbs are all found on these. The lexical "verbal" meaning is found in what look like maybe adjectives or participles. There are Australian languages which do s.t. similar, if not so extreme: all verbal inflection is on one of a handful of auxiliaries, and the lexical verbal content is uninflected. Maybe midway between Kelen and languages we're more familiar with. (There are claims that these languages have only, say, six verbs, but that seems to be s.t. of a simplification.)
msg=92818 | topic=3914 | board=99 | time=2010-02-12 16:40:27 | u=0
Re: new interview
Swoka Swizaw
Seriously, I'm glad that I am a weirdo, so this all, at least, makes SOME sense. 'Course, I live in California, too... ;D
You know, being someone as sought after as Paul must be interesting, if not...tough. It would be fantastic if Faux would decide to release Na'vi (what really can't be theirs in the first place), so we might not have to seek karyu-Pawl so much. But, whatever is the case, Paul Frommer truly sounds like an awesome guy. Thank you, for your time, sir.
msg=80038 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 09:10:31 | u=73
Atan lucet in tenebris
Prrton
atan (n.) = illumination, lux, luz, luce,광선, 光, ljóssins, สุริย, światło, llum, Licht, ışık, světlo, golau, svetloba, रोशनी, תאורה...
[quote=Paul Frommer]Atan is a noun meaning “light” in the sense of “source of illumination.” It’s Jim Cameron’s word, actually. I don’t yet have a word for “light = not heavy”—“light” and “heavy” would be good ones to come up with.[/quote]
So there we go. One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.
Furia fìtxeleru atan soli ngenga, ngengaru irayo seruyi ayoeng, ma Pawl.
_____________________
msg=80048 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 09:16:58 | u=1485
Re: Atan lucet in tenebris
Erimeyz
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]
So there we go. One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.
[/quote]
So said, [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Atan_Is_Illumination]so done[/url], is well.
msg=80098 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 09:51:59 | u=664
Re: Atan lucet in tenebris
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]
atan (n.) = illumination, lux, luz, luce,광선, 光, ljóssins, สุริย, światło, llum, Licht, ışık, světlo, golau, svetloba, रोशनी, תאורה...
[quote=Paul Frommer]Atan is a noun meaning “light” in the sense of “source of illumination.” It’s Jim Cameron’s word, actually. I don’t yet have a word for “light = not heavy”—“light” and “heavy” would be good ones to come up with.[/quote]
So there we go. One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.
Furia fìtxeleru atan soli ngenga, ngengaru irayo seruyi ayoeng, ma Pawl.
_____________________
[/quote]
Mengá fìlì'ur "atan si" a fì'uri mengáru iráyo seiyí oe. ;D (Slä peséng lu txúra pam, átan fu atán?)
-Keyl
msg=80157 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 10:43:55 | u=73
Re: Atan lucet in tenebris
Prrton
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=3920.msg80098#msg80098 date=1265449919]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]
atan (n.) = illumination, lux, luz, luce,광선, 光, ljóssins, สุริย, światło, llum, Licht, ışık, světlo, golau, svetloba, रोशनी, תאורה...
[quote=Paul Frommer]Atan is a noun meaning “light” in the sense of “source of illumination.” It’s Jim Cameron’s word, actually. I don’t yet have a word for “light = not heavy”—“light” and “heavy” would be good ones to come up with.[/quote]
So there we go. One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.
Furia fìtxeleru atan soli ngenga, ngengaru irayo seruyi ayoeng, ma Pawl.
_____________________
[/quote]
Mengá fìlì'ur "atan si" a fì'uri mengáru iráyo seiyí oe. ;D (Slä peséng lu txúra pam, átan fu atán?)
-Keyl
[/quote]
Oer txóa, ma Tsmukán! Tìpáẃmìri ke 'ok sìrmí óe. Káẃnga éltu Pŕŕtonä!! Zéne óe täpivakúk nìmún nìmún. :-[ *Fehólpxay hŕŕä tayám? nìVohín? nìMŕŕvol? :-\\ Tsay'ú pxan lu srak? Ke tsängún tslivám óe nìwótx! Snúmìna éltu Pŕŕtonä nìmún! :'(
_____________________
msg=80567 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 15:52:13 | u=21
Re: Atan lucet in tenebris
wm.annis
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.[/quote]
Do we happen to know where the accent should go?
msg=80815 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-06 18:35:10 | u=73
Re: Atan lucet in tenebris
Prrton
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3920.msg80567#msg80567 date=1265471533]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.[/quote]
Do we happen to know where the accent should go?
[/quote]
That's what tsmukan Keyl and I were just lamenting above.
[quote=Keyl]
Mengá fìlì'ur "atan si" a fì'uri mengáru iráyo seiyí oe. ;D (Slä peséng lu txúra pam, átan fu atán?)
-Keyl
[quote=Prrton]
Oer txóa, ma Tsmukán! Tìpáẃmìri ke 'ok sìrmí óe. Káẃnga éltu Pŕŕtonä!! Zéne óe täpivakúk nìmún nìmún. :-[ *Fehólpxay hŕŕä tayám? nìVohín? nìMŕŕvol? :-\\ Tsay'ú pxan lu srak? Ke tsängún tslivám óe nìwótx! Snúmìna éltu Pŕŕtonä nìmún! :'(
[/quote]
[/quote]
I'm going to be administering VOHIN to MRRVOL lashes to myself in penance for not asking (as soon as I can figure out how many that is). ;) If/when/next time I hear from K. Pawl, I'll ask.
_____________________
msg=95240 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-13 23:48:34 | u=3863
Re: Atan lucet in tenebris
Mithcoriel
[Quote]Oer txóa, ma Tsmukán! Tìpáẃmìri ke 'ok sìrmí óe. Káẃnga éltu Pŕŕtonä!! Zéne óe täpivakúk nìmún nìmún. *Fehólpxay hŕŕä tayám? nìVohín? nìMŕŕvol? Tsay'ú pxan lu srak? Ke tsängún tslivám óe nìwótx! Snúmìna éltu Pŕŕtonä nìmún![/quote]
Eh...tipawm: oel ketslam txan Na'vi (oel ke-tslimam nì'ul aylì'uti to oe tslimam) . Srä filì'u: "täpivakúk". Pe'u lu? Lu "takuk" srak? Oe tslam "-iv-", srä pe'u lu "-äp-" ?
Fya'o nga plltxe Na'viti...oe neu tse'a ne-mì ngayä elturu XD.
(Ulte rutxe pivlltxe nìwotx Na'vi-ayli'u a oel si nìtsleng, irayo ^^)
msg=95361 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-14 00:34:42 | u=2788
Re: Atan lucet in tenebris
Lance R. Casey
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/the-reflexive-(from-a-frommer-email!!!!)/]Fìkìngit[/url] nìn. :)
msg=105347 | topic=3920 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 09:06:48 | u=73
Re: Atan lucet in tenebris
Prrton
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80815#msg80815 date=1265481310]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=3920.msg80567#msg80567 date=1265471533]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=3920.msg80038#msg80038 date=1265447431]One more official meaning and clarified part of speech for the canon.[/quote]
Do we happen to know where the accent should go?
[/quote]
That's what tsmukan Keyl and I were just lamenting above.
[quote=Keyl]
Mengá fìlì'ur "atan si" a fì'uri mengáru iráyo seiyí oe. ;D (Slä peséng lu txúra pam, átan fu atán?)
-Keyl
[quote=Prrton]
Oer txóa, ma Tsmukán! Tìpáẃmìri ke 'ok sìrmí óe. Káẃnga éltu Pŕŕtonä!! Zéne óe täpivakúk nìmún nìmún. :-[ *Fehólpxay hŕŕä tayám? nìVohín? nìMŕŕvol? :-\\ Tsay'ú pxan lu srak? Ke tsängún tslivám óe nìwótx! Snúmìna éltu Pŕŕtonä nìmún! :'(
[/quote]
[/quote]
I'm going to be administering VOHIN to MRRVOL lashes to myself in penance for not asking (as soon as I can figure out how many that is). ;) If/when/next time I hear from K. Pawl, I'll ask.
_____________________
[/quote]
[quote=Paul Frommer (in e-mail to Prrton 17 Feb.)]And atan is aTAN.[/quote]
So that means that the 2nd syllable is stressed.
_____________________
msg=88261 | topic=4177 | board=99 | time=2010-02-10 10:59:08 | u=1
MOVED: the evidential??
Seabass
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=4173.0[/iurl]
msg=95180 | topic=4453 | board=99 | time=2010-02-13 23:06:18 | u=1120
participles
roger
'Nother tidbit:
[quote author=Frommer]
Keruseya tute vs. ke rey a tute (don't attach the ke or a, since rey is a finite verb) is parallel to "dead (= non-living) person" vs. "person who doesn't live OR isn't alive" in English. Semantically they seem pretty much the same [...].
Note the Avatar line (which I don't believe made it into the final version of the film):
Hetuwongìl awngeyä swotut ska'a, fte kllkivulat keruseya tskxet.
'The aliens destroy our sacred place to dig up dead rock.'
[/quote]
[quote author=Frommer]
Palulukan atusaron lu lehrrap. 'A hunting thanator is dangerous.'
Palulukan a teraron lu lehrrap. 'A thanator that's hunting is dangerous.'
[/quote]
There's our transitive verb. Pretty similar to sbrd in these verbs, but that may not be the case for modals etc.; I don't know.
msg=95409 | topic=4453 | board=99 | time=2010-02-14 00:49:54 | u=631
Re: participles
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Great! Thanks for the update on the confirmation :)
msg=95294 | topic=4457 | board=99 | time=2010-02-14 00:14:24 | u=1
MOVED: A "new word" game.
Seabass
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=9]Your Projects / Other Resources[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=4368.0[/iurl]
msg=100320 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 13:26:10 | u=21
Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
wm.annis
Here's the mail from Karyu Pawl. Evidently, he's been having computer difficulties recently. The underlining below is mine.
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]Thanks for combining your questions. Yes, that helps a lot. Excellent idea. The only downside is that if the questions below are typical, they're often hard and deep, and I may not the answers immediately. But questions on this level help immensely in getting me to see the places where the rules need further development or clarification, or where I left inadvertent gaps.
Anyway, let me answer a few of the questions now, and I'll do my best to get to the others without too much further delay. As always, thanks for your patience.
BTW, "Ma Karyu Pawl" is fine. :-)
BTW2, if I had the Na'vi word for 'elegant,' (it's on my list), I'd apply it to your sentence:
"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."
Aylì'u ngeyä lor lu nìngay.
P.
[quote]1. Is this correct: po kä a tseng(ne) ke tsìme'a oel I didn't see
where s/he was going.[/quote]
No, it's not. But it raises in interesting question.
The error is in the case of "tseng(e)." The structure has to be, "I didn't see the place that s/he was going (to)," so we're essentially dealing with a relative clause. "Place" is in the matrix sentence, so it should be marked as an object. Changing the word order for clarity (which doesn't really affect anything) . . .
Oel tsìme'a tsenget/tsengit [depending on whether you like tseng or tsenge for 'place'] a . . .
But what's the RC? The place THAT S/HE WAS GOING or the place THAT S/HE WAS GOING TO?
If it's the former, we simply have: a po karmä (I like indicating the tense and aspect here, although it's not obligatory.)
If it's the latter, then since we can't strand an adposition in Na'vi the way we can in English, the structure is similar to "the place that s/he was going to it."
For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.
So the two possible versions of the sentence you want are:
(1) Po karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel.
(2) Po tsane karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel.
(2) is unimpeachable, I think. But I'd accept (1) as well. It's a bit loose but it seems like a natural development, and it has the virtue of brevity.
[quote]4. Are multiple vocatives clustered (ma smukan sì smuke) or not (ma smukan sì ma smuke)?[/quote]
Clustered. "Ma smukan sì smuke."
[quote]5. Does the vocative always come before the noun and all modifiers
including adjectives and genitives, or is it just before the head
noun? Is it always a particle or can it ever be used as a
suffix/enclitic?[/quote]
It's before the noun and all modifiers, not necessarily immediately before the head:
ma oeyä eylan: 'O my friends'
It's always before the NP, never a suffix/enclitic.
[quote]7. In toruk makto it seems like it should be maktoyu. Aside from
"James Cameron Said So" is there a reason it is not?[/quote]
So you guys noticed that, huh? :-)
JC and I had a bit of a discussion about "Toruk makto." I pointed out that according to the grammar, it should be maktoyu. And I was told in no uncertain terms that it was going to be "toruk makto," and I should figure out a way to make it work. The man certainly has the right . . .
So it's an exception--one of the iconic phrases in the language that developed unusually, for whatever reasons, and don't follow the normal rules. If we looked hard enough we could probably find parallels in English and in all other languages.
[quote]1. Regarding adpositions. When they follow, they are written attached
to the word. Can we assume this means they are enclitic, and have no
stress accent of their own? Is the accent obliterated in two syllable
adpostions, as in eyktanmungwrr?[/quote]
Yes, they're enclitic, without their own stress. EYKtanmungwrr is stressed on the first syllable--a bit awkward, perhaps, but not too bad.
[quote]9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt
with when the attributive is used? Do other vowels need any special
treatment with the attributive?[/quote]
In such cases the attributive "a" is swallowed up and disappears:
skxawng apxa, apxa skxawng
I can't think of any other cases where this happens, although aä and äa seem like rather unstable sequences. Until further notice, though, I think we'll allow them.
============
That's it for now. More soon, I hope . . .[/quote]
msg=100344 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 13:48:30 | u=310
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Aeroflyte
[desc=Not to sound creepy or anything...]I love this guy.[/desc] I really do. Though I'll probably never get to actually speak with/email him, he's great and it's awesome how interested he seems to be in helping us all.
msg=100443 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 15:09:58 | u=3552
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
tigermind
Huzzah! Those are some important questions answered. I'm particularly happy to have an inanimate "it"--now i have translations to fix!
All hail Karyu Pawl =D
msg=100469 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 15:22:27 | u=1620
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
dontbugme
sìltsana fmawn :D
'Ivong Na'vi
msg=100473 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 15:23:49 | u=1244
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Eight
Yay, I got an answer to a question I think I asked...
Which means more work for me (modifying software) but hey... :)
Edit: Forgot to say "Love ya Paul". :D
msg=100546 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 16:17:01 | u=1485
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Erimeyz
I heart K. Pawl!
msg=100570 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 16:39:44 | u=195
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
esoanem
Huzzah, now I just need to wait for him to reply to my email. :D
msg=100623 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 17:17:43 | u=631
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Great! Thanks for letting us know.
[desc=I'll spread the word..]Oel vìyirä lì'ut[/desc]... ;)
msg=100707 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:04:14 | u=985
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Nyx
Awesome ;D
msg=100711 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:07:23 | u=430
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
TehMightyPirate
Could a linguist perhaps explain the first answer he gives for us non-linguists?
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?
msg=100728 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:22:46 | u=985
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Nyx
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?
[/quote]
Wait, are you saying you have an alternative mode of transport? :o
But yeah, we could just see it as some kind of laziness or ancient form.. and all languages have some weird exceptions, so I guess it's ok :)
msg=100733 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:25:11 | u=430
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=Nyx link=topic=4705.msg100728#msg100728 date=1266344566]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?
[/quote]
Wait, are you saying you have an alternative mode of transport? :o
But yeah, we could just see it as some kind of laziness or ancient form.. and all languages have some weird exceptions, so I guess it's ok :)
[/quote]
A little off topic but I am glad that Na'vi has a few, select, exceptions for things, it makes it seem "more real" if you know what I mean.
msg=100778 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:51:21 | u=2788
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Lance R. Casey
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.
[/quote]
Txantsan! :)
So, how about some extrapolation:
tsa it
mesa those two
pxesa those three
(ay)sa they
tseyä its
meseyä of those two
pxeseyä of those three
(ay)seyä their
msg=100794 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 18:55:58 | u=430
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=4705.msg100778#msg100778 date=1266346281]
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.
[/quote]
Txantsan! :)
So, how about some extrapolation:
tsa it
mesa those two
pxesa those three
(ay)sa they
tseyä its
meseyä of those two
pxeseyä of those three
(ay)seyä their
[/quote]
Seems prudent to assume that this would work in such a way.
msg=100855 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 19:31:59 | u=1620
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
dontbugme
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?
[/quote]
i think the difference is not That big anyway. i remember the "o" at the end being pronounced once a bit "ou" like in the movie. i personally could imagine that it envolved by being told in stories, maybe just because it sounds more distinctive and unique.
msg=100860 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 19:34:02 | u=430
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
TehMightyPirate
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=4705.msg100855#msg100855 date=1266348719]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?
[/quote]
i think the difference is not That big anyway. i remember the "o" at the end being pronounced once a bit "ou" like in the movie. i personally could imagine that it envolved by being told in stories, maybe just because it sounds more distinctive and unique.
[/quote]
Yeah, Mo'at has a definite "ou" when she says it.
Anyway, back on topic.
msg=101169 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 21:24:43 | u=1434
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Kazgard
A delicious update. I'm thrilled that we can enjoy this level of direct support from Pawl.
msg=101325 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 22:31:44 | u=2104
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Mirri
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg100443#msg100443 date=1266332998]
Huzzah! Those are some important questions answered. I'm particularly happy to have an inanimate "it"--now i have translations to fix!
All hail Karyu Pawl =D
[/quote]
Damn, I've been using 'u for that everywhere. It seemed much more simple and obvious to me :P
msg=101382 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-16 23:04:51 | u=1485
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Erimeyz
Mirri: consider tute person -> po he/she :: 'u thing -> tsa it. Yes? Of course, 'u thing is derived, not attested. And tsa was attested as that but is now also attested as it. It's interesting that the one word covers both concepts.
And, of course, we have fipo, lapo, frapo, etc making compounds with po he/she instead of tute person... but we have fi'u, fra'u, ke'u etc making compounds with 'u thing instead of tsa it. Hm.
And we have tsa'u that thing. But we don't yet have tsapo that person, and maybe because there's an animacy contrast between tsa / po we won't ever get it?
We also have fipo that one (person or thing), attested in the ASG. So does K. Pawl's latest gift mean that fipo is really this one (person)?
Hm.
- Eri
msg=101474 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 00:28:03 | u=21
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
wm.annis
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4705.msg101382#msg101382 date=1266361491]And tsa was attested as that but is now also attested as it. It's interesting that the one word covers both concepts.[/quote]
This is ubiquitous. Our own "he" and "she" started off life as demonstratives.
msg=101495 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 00:42:32 | u=21
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
wm.annis
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=4705.msg100711#msg100711 date=1266343643]Could a linguist perhaps explain the first answer he gives for us non-linguists?[/quote]
That was my question, and I tried to pack too much into it. First, the wh-words in English have three distinct functions —
[*]direct question: "Where did my little dog go." [*]indirect question: "I wonder where my little dog went." [*]relative adverb "Don't step where my little dog went."
Because
krr in the
a krr relative construction is adverbial, I was wondering if
tsenge is, too. But, by picking my example sentence, I asked a question about indirect questions instead of the relative. D'oh!
The other issue has to do with "-ere" adverbs: where, here, there. The thing about location is that you can either be there already, be moving there or be moving away from there. In old fashioned English, we have "here, there, where" (stationary), "hither, thither, whither" (movement to) and "hence, thence, whence" (movement from). I was trying to figure out what the Na'vi for "whither" would be. Turns out to involve the noun for place, with a place-holder pronoun to get the adposition indicating motion toward (
ne).
msg=101509 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:06:32 | u=3552
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
tigermind
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4705.msg101474#msg101474 date=1266366483]
This is ubiquitous. Our own "he" and "she" started off life as demonstratives.
[/quote]
What do you mean, ma 'eylan?
msg=101525 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:21:19 | u=21
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
wm.annis
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg101509#msg101509 date=1266368792]What do you mean, ma 'eylan?[/quote]
Just that Modern English "he" and "she" are descendants of words that in Old English and earlier were closer to "this, that."
msg=101531 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:22:41 | u=3552
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
tigermind
"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."
Aylì'u ngeyä lor lu nìngay.
Could somebody help translate this for me, rutxe? I'm having trouble understanding. Here's what i have:
Nga-eyä teri fay+txele a ay-sänume-ri nga-r(u) irayo s<ei>(y)i ay-oe nìwotx
You-GEN concerning these+subject SBRD PL+teachings-TOP you-DAT thank<LAUD> we(EXCL).NTR much
"We thank you very much for your teachings concerning these subjects"?
And then that second part, what is "lor"? I understand the rest.
Irayo, ma smukan, ulte Eywa ayngahu.
msg=101533 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:24:06 | u=3552
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
tigermind
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4705.msg101525#msg101525 date=1266369679]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg101509#msg101509 date=1266368792]What do you mean, ma 'eylan?[/quote]
Just that Modern English "he" and "she" are descendants of words that in Old English and earlier were closer to "this, that."
[/quote]
Huh, learn something new everyday. Now, is that because English used to be a gendered language, like French and Italian (and numerous other languages, i'm sure), or is that unrelated?
msg=101554 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 01:47:35 | u=21
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
wm.annis
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg101531#msg101531 date=1266369761]
"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."
"We thank you very much for your teachings concerning these subjects"?[/quote]
Almost. The ayoe nìwotx means "all of us."
[quote]And then that second part, what is "lor"?[/quote]
"Beautiful," used of things, not people.
[quote]Now, is that because English used to be a gendered language, like French and Italian (and numerous other languages, i'm sure), or is that unrelated?[/quote]
More like German — three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter) — but basically yes.
msg=102184 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 14:13:46 | u=2211
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Txaklan
This is great!
msg=102428 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 16:50:41 | u=3552
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
tigermind
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4705.msg101554#msg101554 date=1266371255]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4705.msg101531#msg101531 date=1266369761]
"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."
"We thank you very much for your teachings concerning these subjects"?[/quote]
Almost. The ayoe nìwotx means "all of us."
[quote]And then that second part, what is "lor"?[/quote]
"Beautiful," used of things, not people.
[quote]Now, is that because English used to be a gendered language, like French and Italian (and numerous other languages, i'm sure), or is that unrelated?[/quote]
More like German — three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter) — but basically yes.
[/quote]
Ngar irayo seiyi oe, ma tsmukan. I appreciate your help; and that tidbit about English's past is interesting. Eywa ngahu.
msg=105154 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 03:38:10 | u=282
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Java
[quote]9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt
with when the attributive is used? Do other vowels need any special
treatment with the attributive?
In such cases the attributive "a" is swallowed up and disappears:
skxawng apxa, apxa skxawng
I can't think of any other cases where this happens, although aä and äa seem like rather unstable sequences. Until further notice, though, I think we'll allow them.
[/quote]
I woke up this morning thinking about that exact question. Kinda strange but convenient at the same time :)
msg=105173 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 04:09:39 | u=1627
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Kawazoe
[quote author=Java link=topic=4705.msg105154#msg105154 date=1266550690]
[quote]9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt
with when the attributive is used? Do other vowels need any special
treatment with the attributive?
In such cases the attributive "a" is swallowed up and disappears:
skxawng apxa, apxa skxawng
I can't think of any other cases where this happens, although aä and äa seem like rather unstable sequences. Until further notice, though, I think we'll allow them.
[/quote]
I woke up this morning thinking about that exact question. Kinda strange but convenient at the same time :)
[/quote]
I asked it in the TeamSpeak server yesterday o.O
msg=105337 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 08:48:49 | u=73
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Prrton
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=4705.msg100623#msg100623 date=1266340663]
[font=Garamond]Great! Thanks for letting us know.
[desc=I'll spread the word..]Oel vìyirä lì'ut[/desc]... ;)
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure that « virä » is intransitive, so I'd suggest we might consider saying this using our handy new "causitive infix", which is « -eyk- » (pre-first).
TAFRAL:
« Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » or maybe a bit less idiomatically (from an 'Ìnglìsì perspective) >>>
« [desc=(Lit: I will cause this news to spread >>> "I will spread this news.")]Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä fìfmawnit[/desc] »
From many things I have heard/seen from K. Pawl lately, he wants everyone to try to avoid using *non-Na'vi* idiomatic expressions for things that are not directly relevant to our human world. There is nothing wrong with « Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » and there is a special kind of "direct translation" humor in it that « [desc=makes one laugh]fkot h-eyk-angham[/desc] », but whenever we're doing this, we should do it *intentionally* for humorous or ironic effect, and not just because that's the idiomatic pattern we use in our language or languages. I don't mean this in a lecturing or disrespectful way at all, I'd just like to explicitly point it out so that we'll ALL ALWAYS think about it. ;) My comment here is addressed to "all of us" (myself included).
msg=105351 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 09:10:48 | u=195
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
esoanem
[desc=Prrton, shouldn't you have said "oe-l v<eyk>irä fìfmawn-ur"? I thought that when you used <eyk> you had to use the dative.]Ma prrton, z<iv>ene nga p<ilv>lltxe san oe-l v<eyk>irä fìfmawn-ur sìk srak? Oe fp<ìlm>ìl (that sounds funny) tsnì san <eyk> sìk fko-hu tìkangkem si a krr nga zene nì-tìng-tu tìkangkem s<eyk>i.[/desc]
msg=105357 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 09:21:42 | u=631
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Plumps83
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4705.msg105337#msg105337 date=1266569329]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=4705.msg100623#msg100623 date=1266340663]
[font=Garamond]Great! Thanks for letting us know.
[desc=I'll spread the word..]Oel vìyirä lì'ut[/desc]... ;)
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure that « virä » is intransitive, so I'd suggest we might consider saying this using our handy new "causitive infix", which is « -eyk- » (pre-first).
TAFRAL:
« Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » or maybe a bit less idiomatically (from an 'Ìnglìsì perspective) >>>
« [desc=(Lit: I will cause this news to spread >>> "I will spread this news.")]Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä fìfmawnit[/desc] »
From many things I have heard/seen from K. Pawl lately, he wants everyone to try to avoid using *non-Na'vi* idiomatic expressions for things that are not directly relevant to our human world. There is nothing wrong with « Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » and there is a special kind of "direct translation" humor in it that « [desc=makes one laugh]fkot h-eyk-angham[/desc] », but whenever we're doing this, we should do it *intentionally* for humorous or ironic effect, and not just because that's the idiomatic pattern we use in our language or languages. I don't mean this in a lecturing or disrespectful way at all, I'd just like to explicitly point it out so that we'll ALL ALWAYS think about it. ;) My comment here is addressed to "all of us" (myself included).[/quote]
[font=Garamond]That's an instance where I just wrote before thinking about it ... now that you mention it: YES, it is very idiomatic and I shouldn't have used it. I totally agree about non-Na'vi idiomatics ... whatever that entails ... but that's something for another thread and another discussion, I presume ;)
Thanks for pointing that out!
No hard feelings from my side :)
msg=105453 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:18:32 | u=1485
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Erimeyz
Prrton's point is well-spoken. It's been made before, and no doubt will be made many times again. [desc=Life is this way >> "That's life."]Tìray lu fìfya.[/desc]
It suggests a question for the "Combined Questions" thread, which I'll go post there now: What are some Na'vi idioms? And I don't mean Na'vi translations of English idioms; those would be nice to have also but we can figure them out for ourselves. I mean native idioms, and the more the merrier. Why? Because learning them can help us think in Na'vi.
- Eri
msg=105455 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:20:13 | u=21
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
wm.annis
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=4705.msg105351#msg105351 date=1266570648]I thought that when you used <eyk> you had to use the dative.[/quote]
One uses the dative for the original subject of a transitive verb that has been made causative. When an intransitive verb is promoted to transitive with ‹eyk› the object is in the accusative.
msg=105473 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:56:04 | u=1485
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
Erimeyz
This last point is a bit confusing, and worth going through slowly (since it's covered in two different emails from Pawl):
Intransitive:
Po holahaw He slept
Oel heykolahaw poti I caused-to-sleep him
Transitive:
Pol tolaron ayfoti He hunted them
Oel teykolaron ayfoti poru I caused-to-hunt them him
It's a little weird to my way of thinking, honestly. You'd think that using the causative infix would have the same effect on both the intransitive's subject and the transitive's agent, i.e. they would both become the patient of the causative and thus both take the accusative. After all, they're the ones that the causative force is being applied to (they're the ones being caused to do something). But NO! That's not what happens! The intransitive's subject becomes the causative's patient, but the transitive's agent becomes the causative's indirect object, and the transitive's patient remains the causative's patient.
Weird. But totally in keeping with the idea of a tripartite system. The intransitive's subject IS NOT LIKE the transitive's agent. There's no reason for them to behave similarly when causativified.
- Eri
msg=105545 | topic=4705 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 13:35:30 | u=1837
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
hi
[quote author=Eight link=topic=4705.msg100473#msg100473 date=1266333829]
Yay, I got an answer to a question I think I asked...
Which means more work for me (modifying software) but hey... :)
Edit: Forgot to say "Love ya Paul". :D
[/quote] 8)
msg=102045 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 11:56:58 | u=595
The causative infix
lightning
I've just noticed that the Wikibook lists the long anticipated causative infix [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Verbs#Pre-first_position:_Valency]among the pre-first position ones[/url] as <eyk>, including usage examples and also [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Syntax#Transitivity]a paragraph on its usage[/url] in the Syntax section.
Anyone knows where is it sourced or has more info on that?
msg=102460 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:02:59 | u=3552
Re: The causative infix
tigermind
[quote author=Tawtakuk link=topic=4785.msg102045#msg102045 date=1266407818]
I've just noticed that the Wikibook lists the long anticipated causative infix [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Verbs#Pre-first_position:_Valency]among the pre-first position ones[/url] as <eyk>, including usage examples and also [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Syntax#Transitivity]a paragraph on its usage[/url] in the Syntax section.
Anyone knows where is it sourced or has more info on that?
[/quote]
Wow, if this info is right (and i'm assuming it is), this...complicates things. Whoever's maintaing the Na'vi dictionary will want to update the verb entries with transitive/intransitive info so we know when we'll need to use this infix. Fun stuff.
msg=102476 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 17:08:28 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=4785.msg102460#msg102460 date=1266426179]Wow, if this info is right (and i'm assuming it is), this...complicates things. Whoever's maintaing the Na'vi dictionary will want to update the verb entries with transitive/intransitive info so we know when we'll need to use this infix. Fun stuff.[/quote]
The problem right now is that only Frommer knows the transitivity of a lot of verbs. He's been asked about these matters before. We may have to wait on his official dictionary (Fox! get moving on this!) before we'll have a good handle on a bunch of words.
I'm personally more curious to see what happens when a transitive verb is given the causative infix. What happns to the cases?
Oel taron yerikit I hunt yerik.
If this turns into a causative, t‹eyk›aron, what case does the original object go in and what case does the original subject turn into. Given Frommer's love of the dative case, I currently suspsect it's dative for the original subject —
*Eyktanìl oeru t‹eyk›eraron yerikit The leader has me hunting yerik,
but this is a big guess, of course.
msg=103040 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 21:42:02 | u=417
Re: The causative infix
Alìm Tsamsiyu
There are some things on the Wiki that seem a little bit contrary to what we know from Frommer's examples....
One thing in particular that I notice:
[quote author=Wiki] Oe tsun pivey trrit a nga tayìng ayoer(u) nì'ul.
"I can await the day when you will give us more."[/quote]
Since when can 'a' by itself translate to "when"? I suppose the trr+a combination might invoke this meaning like krr+a does, but with the accusative marker attached, I have my doubts.
Thus far, I have yet to fully trust anything the Wiki says (despite Frommer's indirect blessing) and have gleaned all my current knowledge from discussions on the forum, available resource documents (.PDFs), and posted correspondences with Dr. Frommer.
In short - I don't trust it.
msg=103055 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 21:48:07 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=4785.msg103040#msg103040 date=1266442922][quote]Oe tsun pivey trrit a nga tayìng ayoer(u) nì'ul.
"I can await the day when you will give us more."[/quote]
Since when can 'a' by itself translate to "when"? I suppose the trr+a combination might invoke this meaning like krr+a does, but with the accusative marker attached, I have my doubts.[/quote]
Do not be misled by the translation here. Of course a does not mean "when," but because the antecedent is "day" the relative "when" makes a somewhat more idiomatic English translation than "which, that."
This sentence is from the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Verb_Phrases_as_Objects]Canon[/url], vetted by Frommer himself. There is no reason to distrust it.
msg=103060 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-17 21:53:18 | u=417
Re: The causative infix
Alìm Tsamsiyu
Hmm. I see - I was thinking about that shortly before you posted this, thinking that could be what was happening.
Still, I don't like the wide open nature of Wikipedia... Call me old fashioned, I guess :P
msg=104186 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 17:49:36 | u=195
Re: The causative infix
esoanem
If this behaves in the way it seems (and is actually the causative infix) then I think the original subject -> indirect (dative) object is good.
Personally though, I don't want this to be right. Given it's similarity to the verb [desc=leads]eyk [/desc]which would make sense in this context so I'd quite like eyk to be a modal verb creating causative forms.
msg=104204 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 18:00:00 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
[quote author=tìkawngä mungeyu link=topic=4785.msg104186#msg104186 date=1266515376]Personally though, I don't want this to be right. [/quote]
It is. So, astonishingly, is my dative guess. I hope to be able to officially update the Canon soon.
msg=104260 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 18:39:43 | u=54
Re: The causative infix
Tiger
Hmmm, speaking of the similiarity to lead...
[desc=Our leader's death caused me to lead.]Awngeyä eyktanä tìterkupìl oet eykeyk.[/desc]
msg=104271 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 18:45:38 | u=1485
Re: The causative infix
Erimeyz
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4785.msg104204#msg104204 date=1266516000]
It is. So, astonishingly, is my dative guess. I hope to be able to officially update the Canon soon.
[/quote]
... I'm guessing that means that you're going by something other the Wikibooks assertion.
- Eri
msg=104285 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 18:56:32 | u=1485
Re: The causative infix
Erimeyz
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=4785.msg103060#msg103060 date=1266443598]
Still, I don't like the wide open nature of Wikipedia...
[/quote]
First, it's now Wikibooks, not Wikipedia. All the content that used to be on Wikipedia moved to Wikibooks about two weeks ago.
Second, it's not the wide-open nature that should hinder your trust. The forum is no less wide-open - anyone can post anything.
Third, your trust should be based on the degree to which material you encounter (whether on Wikipedia, Wikibooks, the forum, or your own email inbox) is supported by references to reliable sources. The author behind most of the Wikibooks content (and the Wikipedia content before it) is very good at conducting analysis but is stunningly poor at providing references or explaining his analysis. I generally assume anything he's written is correct, but I'm never comfortable until I see others making the same conclusions from corpus analysis, or until I see the emails from Frommer that he's relying on being posted.
- Eri
msg=104807 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-18 22:48:55 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4785.msg104271#msg104271 date=1266518738]... I'm guessing that means that you're going by something other the Wikibooks assertion.[/quote]
Yes. I just need to clear up some attributions.
msg=104932 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 00:31:07 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
Voilà — [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#More_extracts_from_various_emails]Extracts[/url] (added by roger), Feb 17 for the causative issue.
msg=105111 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 03:01:36 | u=1485
Re: The causative infix
Erimeyz
Outstanding! Another big drop of email from roger, another treasure trove of Na'vi Na'ledge! Thanks for sharing, gents.
If you're just tuning in to the thread, you should definitely check out the wiki link above.
- Eri
msg=105143 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 03:27:32 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4785.msg104260#msg104260 date=1266518383]
Hmmm, speaking of the similiarity to lead...
[desc=Our leader's death caused me to lead.]Awngeyä eyktanä tìterkupìl oet eykeyk.[/desc]
[/quote]
The "caused subject" of a transitive verb is in the dative, so it would be oeru in place of oet. Whatever the original object is (like "the people" or "the war party") stays in the accusative.
msg=105263 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 06:04:59 | u=54
Re: The causative infix
Tiger
Srane, oel tse'a tsat set.
msg=105480 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:59:13 | u=1485
Re: The causative infix
Erimeyz
I posted this in a different thread, but it belongs here:
The causative works differently for transitive and intransitive verbs. This point is a bit confusing, and worth going through slowly (since it's covered in two different emails from Pawl):
Intransitive:
Po holahaw He slept
Oel heykolahaw poti I caused-to-sleep him
Transitive:
Pol tolaron ayfoti He hunted them
Oel teykolaron ayfoti poru I caused-to-hunt them him
It's a little weird to my way of thinking, honestly. You'd think that using the causative infix would have the same effect on both the intransitive's subject and the transitive's agent, i.e. they would both become the patient of the causative and thus both take the accusative. After all, they're the ones that the causative force is being applied to (they're the ones being caused to do something). But NO! That's not what happens! The intransitive's subject becomes the causative's patient, but the transitive's agent becomes the causative's indirect object, and the transitive's patient remains the causative's patient.
Weird. But totally in keeping with the idea of a tripartite system. The intransitive's subject IS NOT LIKE the transitive's agent. There's no reason for them to behave similarly when causativified.
- Eri
msg=105557 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 13:46:13 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4785.msg105480#msg105480 date=1266584353]I posted this in a different thread, but it belongs here:It's a little weird to my way of thinking, honestly. You'd think that using the causative infix would have the same effect on both the intransitive's subject and the transitive's agent, i.e. they would both become the patient of the causative and thus both take the accusative. [/quote]
It does seem odd at first, but imagine a transitive verb is made causative. If you shift the causee to the accusative, what happens to the original direct object? Some languages object powerfully to having more than one direct object in a clause.
I was able to guess this dative construction with the Wondrous Powers of Linguistic Typology. Most human languages fiddle with the case of the causee, rather than shift the original object around. Shifting the causee to the dative (or the language equivalent, like Japanese relational ni) is most common, with an instrumental (case or adposition) coming in second. For example, if we made a causative of a verb that already takes a dative (like tìng), it's possible Frommer's fa construction might be the only option for the causee.
Edit: after a quick bit of research — a double dative is more widely acceptable than a double accusative, so maybe fa wouldn't be required for the t‹eyk›ìng.
msg=106035 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 19:55:08 | u=54
Re: The causative infix
Tiger
The one I'm wondering about is.... What about verbs like slu, lu or tok? What happens to the subjects of being, becoming or being at? I don't know enough linguistics to even predict that.
msg=106220 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:27:47 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4785.msg106035#msg106035 date=1266609308]The one I'm wondering about is.... What about verbs like slu, lu or tok? What happens to the subjects of being, becoming or being at? I don't know enough linguistics to even predict that.[/quote]
Oh, my.
Tok is just a plain old intransitive verb related to location, like kä and za'u. I go to some place, I come from some place, I am at some place. There are no phrase constituents with tok that need to be adjusted — it's all adverbs and adpositional phrases of place.
Oe tamok mì na'ring I was in the forest.
Pol teykamok oeti mì na'ring She caused me to be in the forest.
Lu is a bit of a mess because it has rather distinct jobs to do. In the sense of existence (lu sute there are people) a causative makes a certain sort of sense.
Lu wutso There is a meal.
Ngal leyku wutsot You cause there to be a meal.
This seems a bit grandiose, but in some languages the causative can be used as a sort of politeness distancing. Important people, of course, do not actually do things — heavens, no! — but say a few words and make things happen. No idea if this would apply to Na'vi.
The copular sense of lu (A = B) raises more serious troubles, both grammatical and semantic. How often will it make sense to say, "someone caused me to be a human." This seems odd. From the grammar standpoint, you'd have to deal with translating not one, but two, nominatives.
Finally, lu is used for adjective predication. Since adjectives aren't marked for case anyway, perhaps *oe tsat leyku apxa could make sense — but it sure seems odd to me. If ever there's a time I'd want verbal morphology to go into an adjective, this is it.
Slu shares the same problems as the copula and adjectival predicate forms of lu. Perhaps some periphrasis will come to the rescue.
msg=106276 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 22:04:11 | u=54
Re: The causative infix
Tiger
I had a feeling that would be the case in the copulative lu... I couldn't think of an example that actually made sense. Even for other uses, the best I could come up with is "cause to have" - but that is conceptually the same as other verbs such as give.
But I was hoping you would have some brilliant answer for slu drawing on some obscure dead language construct, because that seems more useful to be used causatively. I guess we need to wait for Nawma Karyu to give us more information.
msg=107217 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 16:26:14 | u=2873
Re: The causative infix
Skyinou
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4785.msg106220#msg106220 date=1266614867]
Oe tamok mì na'ring I was in the forest.
Pol teykamok oeti mì na'ring She caused me to be in the forest.
[/quote]
I can't understand why it is "oeti" and not "oeru". "oeti" sound so word-to-word translated from english :-\\
It should be dative, because it's caused to you to do the action. She doesn't "caused you", and she doesn't "hunt you" either. It is then not an Accusative for any of the two way of seeing it.
(I hope I'm clear enough, I'm not sure of my english to explain such a difficult matter.)
msg=107272 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:27:35 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4785.msg107217#msg107217 date=1266683174]It should be dative, because it's caused to you to do the action. [/quote]
Not here. When an intransitive verb becomes causative, the causee is in the accusative. When a transitive verb becomes causative, the causee is in the dative.
For example, sngä'i begin is intransitive. When it takes the causative it becomes transitive with the causee in the accusative, Oel sngeykolä'i tìkangkemit "I began the work" (a Frommerian example).
msg=107312 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:58:18 | u=2873
Re: The causative infix
Skyinou
Thanks ma wm.annis,
I don't doubt that your sources are good, but that doesn't explain it. For now I'll stay with: "Frommer said so, so it is"
And "sngä'i" being intransitive... well, the same, ok, if you say so ;D
I don't like "because it is so" rules, but of course there should be some to have a complete language.
oe taron / oel taron yerìkit
ngal teykaron oeti / ngal teykaron oeru yerìkit
And, what about "I made him speak to you"? ;D
"oel peyklltxe poru nga??"?
Irayo
msg=107358 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 18:38:02 | u=664
Re: The causative infix
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4785.msg107312#msg107312 date=1266688698]
Thanks ma wm.annis,
I don't doubt that your sources are good, but that doesn't explain it. For now I'll stay with: "Frommer said so, so it is"
And "sngä'i" being intransitive... well, the same, ok, if you say so ;D
I don't like "because it is so" rules, but of course there should be some to have a complete language.
oe taron / oel taron yerìkit
ngal teykaron oeti / ngal teykaron oeru yerìkit
And, what about "I made him speak to you"? ;D
"oel peyklltxe poru nga??"?
Irayo
[/quote]
"Speak with you" (ngahu) would probably solve the problem in this case, but you bring up an interesting point.
How about "I made him give that to you"? We have seen two datives in the same sentence before though (lu oeru aylì'u frapor), so there must be some positioning rules or things would just have to make sense when in context. Oel tsat teykìng poru ngar? or maybe we make things more clear with something in the topic, but every time I try things just seem to get more confusing.
As for some words being transitive/intransitive while others being only one or the other, I think all languages have things that you just need to memorize with no real patterns. Na'vi seems pretty tame in that regard especially when compared to English.
-Keyl
msg=109895 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 15:03:58 | u=417
Re: The causative infix
Alìm Tsamsiyu
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4785.msg104285#msg104285 date=1266519392]
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=4785.msg103060#msg103060 date=1266443598]
Still, I don't like the wide open nature of Wikipedia...
[/quote]
First, it's now Wikibooks, not Wikipedia. All the content that used to be on Wikipedia moved to Wikibooks about two weeks ago.
Second, it's not the wide-open nature that should hinder your trust. The forum is no less wide-open - anyone can post anything.
Third, your trust should be based on the degree to which material you encounter (whether on Wikipedia, Wikibooks, the forum, or your own email inbox) is supported by references to reliable sources. The author behind most of the Wikibooks content (and the Wikipedia content before it) is very good at conducting analysis but is stunningly poor at providing references or explaining his analysis. I generally assume anything he's written is correct, but I'm never comfortable until I see others making the same conclusions from corpus analysis, or until I see the emails from Frommer that he's relying on being posted.
- Eri
[/quote]
Sran... it's point #3 there that I dislike the most. I like sources.
Point #2 is a bit less applicable as, here, any posted information is subject to immediate review and correction, whereas in any Wiki (be it books/pedia) the person who posted the change may remain anonymous, and I somewhat doubt there are as many eyes watching the edits page as there are watching the forums here. Errors there seem much more likely to go unnoticed (at least, for a longer time than here).
-------
Anyway, on topic.
One thing I'm wondering is if this causative infix is going to crop up a lot in somewhat common speech... also leads me to wonder if there were some places in the movie where the causative infix should have been used but was skipped probably because the concept wasn't fully developed yet. Can't think of anything particularly off the top of my head, but I figured 2+ heads are better than one, and maybe someone else can think of one. Just some food for thought.
msg=110156 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 17:40:45 | u=4865
Re: The causative infix
ilovenicknames
i really want to learn na'vi...but it's kinda pretty hard..
because on this website are no sentences or so
msg=110159 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 17:42:42 | u=21
Re: The causative infix
wm.annis
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=4785.msg109895#msg109895 date=1266851038]One thing I'm wondering is if this causative infix is going to crop up a lot in somewhat common speech... also leads me to wonder if there were some places in the movie where the causative infix should have been used but was skipped probably because the concept wasn't fully developed yet. [/quote]
The causative is never required. Now, it's a convenient thing for a constructed language to have, because it lets you derive vocabulary from existing words, and reduces your word creation requirements, but a language isn't obligated to create words that way. So you might have a completely separate word where you'd think a causative of another word would work. We have one example I can think of right away in Na'vi, rikx (move, intransitive) and 'ärìp (move, transitive). I'll ask Frommer if reykikx has any use eventually. ;)
msg=110867 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 23:53:25 | u=1120
Re: The causative infix
roger
There's also 'die' and 'kill'. Lots of languages have suppletive sets: person and people in English, for example.
msg=112328 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 21:24:45 | u=631
Re: The causative infix
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Hmm, I encountered a little translation problem and hope somebody can help me. It's the use of the <eyk> together with a modal verb.
So, if I wanted to say: "You can change the text"
latem would have to get the <eyk> infix because in this context it's transitive.
What happens with the other components? I'm still confused about which takes the ergative, accusative and (if required) dative markers...
Am I assuming that
Ngal tsun l<eyk><iv>atem *the text*-it would be correct?
Thanks for any help. :)
msg=112366 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 21:35:39 | u=2788
Re: The causative infix
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=4785.msg112328#msg112328 date=1266960285]
[font=Garamond]Hmm, I encountered a little translation problem and hope somebody can help me. It's the use of the <eyk> together with a modal verb.
So, if I wanted to say: "You can change the text"
latem would have to get the <eyk> infix because in this context it's transitive.
What happens with the other components? I'm still confused about which takes the ergative, accusative and (if required) dative markers...
Am I assuming that
Ngal tsun l<eyk><iv>atem *the text*-it would be correct?
Thanks for any help. :)
[/quote]
If the original verb (latem) is intransitive, the original subject ("the text") becomes the direct object. Dative comes into play when you start with a transitive verb.
Tsun is also intransitive, and the subject of the secondary verb is understood to be the same (regardless of transitivity):
Nga tsun leykivatem "the text"(i)t
msg=112456 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 22:07:45 | u=664
Re: The causative infix
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=4785.msg112328#msg112328 date=1266960285]
[font=Garamond]Hmm, I encountered a little translation problem and hope somebody can help me. It's the use of the <eyk> together with a modal verb.
So, if I wanted to say: "You can change the text"
latem would have to get the <eyk> infix because in this context it's transitive.
What happens with the other components? I'm still confused about which takes the ergative, accusative and (if required) dative markers...
Am I assuming that
Ngal tsun l<eyk><iv>atem *the text*-it would be correct?
Thanks for any help. :)
[/quote]
"The text" should be in ACC, nga does not need the ERG as tsun is intransitive while the sub. clause's ngal can be left out, I believe.
I think there are basically two ways of using -eyk- and they seem to follow the same formula:
1. Intransitive verbs, like latem and sngä'i, become transitive with the causative infix, i.e. Oel sneykä'a tìkangkemit "I begin the work." The thing being affected takes the ACC, the agent who caused it is in the ERG.
2. Transitive verbs, like taron, one is causing the action to happen but not doing it oneself, i.e. Eytukanìl Neytirir yerikit teykolaron. "Eytukan made Neytiri hunt a hexaped." The agent who caused the action takes the ERG, the noun acted on by the verb takes ACC as in the non-causitive sentence, and the person caused to do the verb is in the DAT.
[THEORIZING] I don't think the specific entity that performed the action need be outright stated. Eytukanìl tspeykolang pot. "Eytukan had him killed." It doesn't seem important to say "by someone", and it follows the same structure as "I had that changed". I could be wrong though.
But how do you say "I made him change that"? maybe: Oel poru leykolatam tsat. or also (I am more sure about this one): Oel fa po leykolatam tsat. [/THEORIZING]
-Keyl
msg=112557 | topic=4785 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 23:07:16 | u=631
Re: The causative infix
Plumps83
[font=Garamond][desc=I'm happy about the quick replies. Thanks]Oeru teya si fwa sì'eyng fìtxan win lu :) Irayo[/desc]
msg=105363 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 09:38:48 | u=73
SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Prrton
[quote=Paul Frommer in mail to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010]*Fayl*ìri lEksel irayo seiyi oe ngar, ma oeyä 'eylan. Tsat sayar oel nìltsan.
Tewti! Ngeyä lì'fya leNa'vi txantsan lu nìngay. Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si.
sar = 'to use'
fìtxan = 'so, to such an extent'
oeru teya si: 'fills me' (an idiom, English version courtesy James Cameron; understood: "with satisfaction, with joy")[/quote]
My translation ( :-[ ) only so we can understand the context of his usage:
I thank you for the Excel file (*fayl* le.Eksel), my friend. I will use it well.
Wow! Your Na'vi language is truly excellent. It fills me (with satisfaction/joy)
that people like you can use my strange/funny little creation to
speak so beautifully.
Other interesting (to me tid bits):
- « Fwa » at the very beginning of the sentence
- Cameron's role/specificity in the idiom « teya si »
- « Tsat » used pragmatically as "it"
NB: for "Excel" (« Eksel ») to modify "file" (« *fayl* ») it takes the adjectivization prefex « le- ». In English we would just stick one before the other with no other part of speech/particle to "make a connection". This is an important difference to note especially since these are both "loan words" into Na'vi. We will have a LOT of these to deal with when speaking in Na'vi about things that are only relevant to Earth ( 'Rrta ), but we should be careful for both our phonological and grammatical "hygiene" to pronounce words and keep them grammatically related as they would be if they were native Na'vi vocabulary. This doesn't matter whether the words are coming from English, German, Japanese, Polish, Swedish, Turkish, French, or whatever...
Edited: 19 Feb. 2010, 9:10 PST to correct mistranslation of « hì'i » from "funny/strange" to "small/little")
msg=105383 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 10:01:35 | u=195
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
esoanem
So we're now certain about tsa = it.
And two new words, yay! Now I don't have to use "tìkangkem s<eyk>i".
As for the fwa, looking at the sentence it would ahve to be there in order to keep the focus in the right place. What is interesting is that he didn't use a fì'u instead.
msg=105405 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 10:54:15 | u=54
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Tiger
It seems to me that "fwa" at the start of a sentence is a shortening of "This is X"... which if translated directly would come out as "Fì'u lu fwa X" or just "Lu fwa X" both of which contain superfluous words. So that one makes perfect sense to me.
To use = big win though, I've been wanting that verb for awhile.
msg=105414 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 11:10:59 | u=1434
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Kazgard
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg105363#msg105363 date=1266572328]
[quote=Paul Frommer in mail to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010]... oeyä hì'iya tìngopit ...
[/quote]
... my strange/funny creation ...
[/quote]
Shouldn't that be hì'i, "small"? The y prior to -a is throwing me, though.
msg=105452 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 12:15:20 | u=21
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
wm.annis
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4956.msg105405#msg105405 date=1266576855]
It seems to me that "fwa" at the start of a sentence is a shortening of "This is X"... which if translated directly would come out as "Fì'u lu fwa X" or just "Lu fwa X" both of which contain superfluous words. So that one makes perfect sense to me.[/quote]
That interpretation seems a bit elaborated to me.
[Fwa (= fì'u a) [sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'iya tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan]] oeru teya si.
Before seeing this sentence, I would have constructed it with a fì'u after fìtxan.
msg=105539 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 13:30:18 | u=1485
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Erimeyz
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg105363#msg105363 date=1266572328]
Other interesting (to me tid bits):
- Cameron's role/specificity in the idiom « teya si »
[/quote]
I suspect that some of the most interesting parts of Na'vi are going to rely on [desc=the mind of Creator Jim]Ngopyu Jìmeyä ronsem[/desc]. I (think? doubt?) that Pawl doesn't have a free hand to come up culturally-dependent stuff like idioms on his own, and I (worry? fear?) that he may not have enough access to Jìm to get new cultural material vetted at the pace that he wants to create and use it.
I ruminated [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg104892/#msg104892]here[/url] about the upcoming colors and directions. They'd be most interesting (imho) if they showed some kind derivation from the unique cultural or biological circumstances of the Na'vi. But Pawl probably can't make those kinds of decisions - he makes the language, but Jìm makes The People. I'd hate to think that the potential of the language might be held back because Cameron is busy doing whatever he does when he's not making a movie.
- Eri
msg=105820 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 17:05:38 | u=73
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Prrton
[quote author=Sanmäkx link=topic=4956.msg105414#msg105414 date=1266577859]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg105363#msg105363 date=1266572328]
[quote=Paul Frommer in mail to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010]... oeyä hì'iya tìngopit ...
[/quote]
... my strange/funny creation ...
[/quote]
Shouldn't that be hì'i, "small"? The y prior to -a is throwing me, though.
[/quote]
YES! You are absolutely correct. I have no business editing ANYTHING at 2:00 in the morning. The "funny" thing (and very interesting thing about human cognition and memory) is that oeyä eltu woke me up this morning telling me you've messed up « hì'i » and turned it into « hiyìk »! I rush her and sure enough you've found it and THANKFULLY pointed it out to everyone! Ngaru irayo seiyi oe, ma tsmuk!. And how incredibly SKXAWNG of me (skxawng apxa / apxa skxawng) to believe such a translation in the first place (even my own mistaken one, and even at 2:00 AM)!
[desc=I'm fixing to (Southern English for -ìy-) try to change it (fix it) right now! (*pxi.set is MY word for right now. It is NOT canon.)]*Pxi.set fmìyi tsat leykivatem nìeyawr![/desc]
I humbly apologize to everyone (and especially K. Pawl) for this apxa zoplo!
I think that the -i.y.a must have thrown me off too. It's probably a typo. I'm going to remove it now, and check with him, and put it back if it needs to be there. Great catch!
msg=105985 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 19:04:44 | u=664
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Keyltstxatsmen
I'm excited about this: ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...
I wanted this infinite predicate verb construction (IANAL) many times and thought that this may be the way to do it from listening to Mo'at's lines in the movie, but here is another good example.
I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.
-Keyl
msg=106388 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:16:46 | u=3552
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
tigermind
Huzzah! Seeing how fte is used here means i can go back and fix another translation of mine.
msg=106413 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:36:56 | u=1485
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Erimeyz
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg105985#msg105985 date=1266606284]
I'm excited about this: ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...
I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.
[/quote]
Can you really extrapolate that? The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB"). That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.
Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?
- Eri
msg=106445 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:59:03 | u=664
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg106413#msg106413 date=1266622616]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg105985#msg105985 date=1266606284]
I'm excited about this: ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...
I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.
[/quote]
Can you really extrapolate that? The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB"). That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.
Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?
- Eri
[/quote]
"Learn to VERB" is from Mo'at's line in the movie, so I'm starting to think that "verb fte verb" is a standard construction. You could say it the other way as well though, I think, depends on the situation and the transitivity of the verb most likely.
-Kale
msg=106898 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 11:15:07 | u=2873
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Skyinou
Kaltxì
"nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi" and "nume pivlltxe nìNav'i" probably don't have the same meaning.
In the first one, you learn something with the goal of speaking Na'vi.
In the second, you learn something which is the way of speaking in Na'vi.
msg=107289 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:41:41 | u=664
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg106898#msg106898 date=1266664507]
Kaltxì
"nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi" and "nume pivlltxe nìNav'i" probably don't have the same meaning.
In the first one, you learn something with the goal of speaking Na'vi.
In the second, you learn something which is the way of speaking in Na'vi.
[/quote]
Has nume pivlltxe nìNa'vi been used in the cannon yet? If it has that would make things a lot easier, but I was under the impression that the V + SJT-V construction was only used for zene, kin, new, and tsun up to this point.
-Keyl
msg=107297 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:44:33 | u=3845
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
ikngopyu
I've a question about sivar (a n00b one but I try :)), is sivar from sar = to use + <iv> ?
msg=107299 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:47:36 | u=2873
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Skyinou
ma Keyl,
The use is only approved with modal verbs, yes, but even if that's not correct with other verbs, there will probably be an other construction for "to + verb", because of the ambiguity I stated earlier, if I'm correct.
[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=4956.msg107297#msg107297 date=1266687873]
I've a question about sivar (a n00b one but I try :)), is sivar from sar = to use + <iv> ?
[/quote]
Yes!
"can use" => "tsun sivar"
msg=107307 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:55:58 | u=664
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107299#msg107299 date=1266688056]
ma Keyl,
The use is only approved with modal verbs, yes, but even if that's not correct with other verbs, there will probably be an other construction for "to + verb", because of the ambiguity I stated earlier, if I'm correct.
[/quote]
Couldn't what you trying to say be expressed like this:
nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi
vs
nume lì'fyat leNa'vi fte pivlltxe
-Keyl
msg=107352 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 18:28:43 | u=2873
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Skyinou
I think you understand me, I would even say:
2) nume Naviyä lì'fyat apuslltxe (if "puslltxe" can be "spoken")
I try to not use "fpe", because the goal is not stated in this one, but is in the first one.
And what is learned is stated in this one, but not in the first one.
msg=107374 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 18:53:21 | u=664
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107352#msg107352 date=1266690523]
I think you understand me, I would even say:
2) nume Naviyä lì'fyat apuslltxe (if "puslltxe" can be "spoken")
I try to not use "fpe", because the goal is not stated in this one, but is in the first one.
And what is learned is stated in this one, but not in the first one.
[/quote]
Srane, good use of puslltxe, I think that's perfect. Any reason for the change to Na'viyä?
-Keyl
msg=107392 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:12:19 | u=21
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
wm.annis
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107352#msg107352 date=1266690523]
I think you understand me, I would even say:
2) nume Naviyä lì'fyat apuslltxe (if "puslltxe" can be "spoken")
I try to not use "fpe", because the goal is not stated in this one, but is in the first one.[/quote]
The usual phrase for "the Na'vi language" in Frommer's work is lì'fya leNa'vi.
I'm afraid puslltxe can absolutely not mean "spoken," which is passive. "Speaking" is the meaning of puslltxe.
I personally prefer the fpe form, which should be thought of less as indicating goal than purpose. I study in order to speak Na'vi. That's what we mean by "I study to speak Na'vi" anyway.
msg=107407 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:25:34 | u=2873
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Skyinou
[quote]Any reason for the change to Na'viyä[/quote]
I like the genitive to say it belongs to the Na'vi. Their language. But It seems I'm wrong if wm.annis say Frommer usually use "lì'fya leNa'vi".
I'm sure I read Frommer saying the passive "us" was used only as an adjective. I'll check it again.
But if "kerusey" is "not living" and used as an adjective (keruseya tute), then "lì'fya puslltxe" should be ok for "spoken language", no?
[quote]That's what we mean by "I study to speak Na'vi" anyway.[/quote]
Ok, then how would you say the other in english? "I study the way of speaking in Na'vi"? Or do you have to say "I study the Na'vi language"?
msg=107411 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:28:17 | u=21
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
wm.annis
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107407#msg107407 date=1266693934]I'm sure I read Frommer saying the passive "us" was used only as an adjective. [/quote]
It is a participle, and acts like an adjective — just not a passive one. For now, Frommer seems to be excluding the passive from Na'vi.
msg=107420 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:38:54 | u=2873
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Skyinou
Yes, sorry for that and thanks!
I should then say:
"nume lì'fyat leNa'vi" or "nume lì'fyat a plltxe Na'vi"
msg=107438 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:51:47 | u=1120
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
roger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4956.msg107411#msg107411 date=1266694097]
For now, Frommer seems to be excluding the passive from Na'vi.
[/quote]
I like this. F said re the phonology that a language is not defined just by what it has (ejectives, syllabic C's) but by what it lacks (voiced plosives, postalveolars, /oy/). I'd like this to be a case in the grammar too, where Na'vi doesn't have every feature that European langs do. Like lacking a passive, and we just need to learn to work around it. There's no need for a passive in a language without subjects anyway.
msg=107527 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:35:47 | u=2873
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Skyinou
You are so right!
And the same way with the lack of verb "to have"!
These two at least describe Na'vi, ...
but that would be a philosophical talk I can't afford in english ;D
msg=107924 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 01:10:30 | u=73
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Prrton
[quote author=roger link=topic=4956.msg107438#msg107438 date=1266695507]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=4956.msg107411#msg107411 date=1266694097]
For now, Frommer seems to be excluding the passive from Na'vi.
[/quote]
I like this. F said re the phonology that a language is not defined just by what it has (ejectives, syllabic C's) but by what it lacks (voiced plosives, postalveolars, /oy/). I'd like this to be a case in the grammar too, where Na'vi doesn't have every feature that European langs do. Like lacking a passive, and we just need to learn to work around it. There's no need for a passive in a language without subjects anyway.
[/quote]
The « fko/fkol » constructs *felt* like something vaguely *passive* to me even before K. Pawl clarified it.
I feel like there IS the *function* of passive, it just doesn't happen via a verbal construct:
« Yamom wutsot letrr (fkol) », in my book, gets translated as "Lunch was eaten".
I don't have it in writing from him, but when the OBJECT is promoted to the head of the phrase (and possibly stressed in pronunciation), the attention is focused on IT, so the overall *importance* of the focus is highlighted and does more or less functionally the same thing as changing the verb does in English/Romance languages.
« Wutsot yamom nìwotx Tsu'teyl », becomes "The meal was devoured by Tsu'tey." (If the agent, Tsu'tey, needs clarification.)
This is radically *normative* compared to the way so many things work (and more importantly DON'T work) in [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_language]Pirahã[/url]. And it's spoken right here on Earth. ;) Still... But for how long?... :(
_____________________________
msg=108228 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 08:12:17 | u=3845
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
ikngopyu
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=4956.msg107299#msg107299 date=1266688056]
ma Keyl,
The use is only approved with modal verbs, yes, but even if that's not correct with other verbs, there will probably be an other construction for "to + verb", because of the ambiguity I stated earlier, if I'm correct.
[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=4956.msg107297#msg107297 date=1266687873]
I've a question about sivar (a n00b one but I try :)), is sivar from sar = to use + <iv> ?
[/quote]
Yes!
"can use" => "tsun sivar"
[/quote]
Kaltxì ma tsmukan ulte ngar irayo seiyi oe nìtxan !
We definitively need an update in the awesome Taronyu's dictionary !
msg=109111 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 20:53:01 | u=2788
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg106445#msg106445 date=1266623943]
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg106413#msg106413 date=1266622616]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg105985#msg105985 date=1266606284]
I'm excited about this: ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...
I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.
[/quote]
Can you really extrapolate that? The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB"). That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.
Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?
- Eri
[/quote]
"Learn to VERB" is from Mo'at's line in the movie, so I'm starting to think that "verb fte verb" is a standard construction. You could say it the other way as well though, I think, depends on the situation and the transitivity of the verb most likely.
-Kale
[/quote]
Not quite. I'm assuming that this is the line you're referring to:
Nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pi(l)vlltxe sì tivìran na ayoeng.
So it's not "learn to VERB", it's "teach him so that he VERB", with the subjunctive; fte indicates purpose.
msg=109381 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 00:54:29 | u=664
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=4956.msg109111#msg109111 date=1266785581]
Not quite. I'm assuming that this is the line you're referring to:
Nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pi(l)vlltxe sì tivìran na ayoeng.
So it's not "learn to VERB", it's "teach him so that he VERB", with the subjunctive; fte indicates purpose.
[/quote]
Ah, yeah it was teach. :) Darn it. I still think it's a useful construction though, and I'm glad to see it used in a different place.
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg106413#msg106413 date=1266622616]
Can you really extrapolate that? The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB"). That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.
Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?
[/quote]
Would you need the subjunctive after futa in that form? Also what does this mean:
Oel namume futa p(iv)lltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan.
Does it mean "I learned to speak Na'vi well" or "I learned that I speak Na'vi well"?
-Keyl
msg=110181 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 17:56:07 | u=195
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
esoanem
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg107924#msg107924 date=1266714630]
I feel like there IS the *function* of passive, it just doesn't happen via a verbal construct:
[/quote]
Oe mllte.
Likewise, phrases that function like passive participles could be formed using "fko [verb]" and a relative clause marker.
So, "the hunted yerik" -> [desc=yerik that one hunts]yerik a fko taron[/desc] and "the stopped game" would be [desc=the game that one has stopped]fko ftolang a uvan[/desc].
msg=110344 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 19:21:25 | u=2873
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Skyinou
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg109381#msg109381 date=1266800069]
Oel namume futa p(iv)lltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan.
Does it mean "I learned to speak Na'vi well" or "I learned that I speak Na'vi well"?
[/quote]
I think it will be the first, because "learn" in the way of the second one is probably an other verb in Na'vi.
(I mean: probably you can "nivume" a lesson, not a news.)
And I think that for "I learned that I speak Na'vi well", there will be no <iv> in "plltxe".
msg=110672 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 22:09:05 | u=3845
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
ikngopyu
I agree with you Skyinou, nume have the meaning of to learn (something), not to be told that (something).
If it were the same verb, we couldn't have a subjunctive, as it could be something reported by someone else, not our opinion.
Nevertheless, I guess that in oel namume futa p(iv)lltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan, the futa construction is clearly closed to "I learned that I speak Na'vi well" as futa is fì'ut+a. For "I learned to speak Na'vi well", this could be unsuitable.
msg=110750 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 22:31:09 | u=664
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=4956.msg110672#msg110672 date=1266876545]
I agree with you Skyinou, nume have the meaning of to learn (something), not to be told that (something).
If it were the same verb, we couldn't have a subjunctive, as it could be something reported by someone else, not our opinion.
Nevertheless, I guess that in oel namume futa p(iv)lltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan, the futa construction is clearly closed to "I learned that I speak Na'vi well" as futa is fì'ut+a. For "I learned to speak Na'vi well", this could be unsuitable.
[/quote]
Irayo, ikngopyu! Finally someone agrees with me. :)
Regardless of if nume can be used this other way or not, I would rather say Oe namume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi nìlstan. to mean "I learned to speak Na'vi well" (assuming that nume can be used intransitively). "futa" seems strange here.
-Keyl
msg=110924 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 00:27:26 | u=54
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Tiger
What about....
Oel nerume fya'ot a pivlltxe nìNa'vi?
I am learning how to speak Na'vi.
msg=110932 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 00:37:30 | u=664
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4956.msg110924#msg110924 date=1266884846]
What about....
Oel nerume fya'ot a pivlltxe nìNa'vi?
I am learning how to speak Na'vi.
[/quote]
Oel nerume fya'ot a fko pivlltxe nìNa'vi
I am learning how one speaks Na'vingly.
I feel like the subject needs to be stated in this case, since it's different from the main subject. I should probably start a new topic...
Still it seems like we are getting further and further from "I learn to speak Na'vi".
-Keyl
msg=111011 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 01:45:49 | u=1120
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
roger
Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.
Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.
msg=111066 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 03:17:50 | u=54
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Tiger
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=4956.msg110932#msg110932 date=1266885450]
Still it seems like we are getting further and further from "I learn to speak Na'vi".
-Keyl
[/quote]I'd disagree and say we jut got a lot closer. When you say "I learn to speak Na'vi" in English, it seems to me that it's a short form of saying "I learn HOW to speak Na'vi". So looking at the parts...
Oel nerume fya'ot a X = I learn how X
You're probably right about fko, without it could be taken as "I learn how I speak Na'vi"... Maybe right in Na'vi, maybe not. Certainly not right in English. But with it, the second part "Fko pivlltxe nìNa'vi" - one speaks in Na'vi. "I learn how one speaks in Na'vi".
msg=111175 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 05:41:27 | u=1225
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
neotrekkerz
[quote]Oel nerume fya'ot a X = I learn how X[/quote]
I know that fya'o means way and indeed it makes a lot of sense to use it as how, but do we have confirmation of its use as a conjunction? Maybe add it to the list if we don't. Same for why being used as a conjunction too, now that I think of it.
msg=111216 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 06:40:46 | u=54
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Tiger
It's not being used as a conjunction. a is.
The main clause is "I learn the way", then the subordinate clarifies "way" as specifically "The way to speak Na'vi", attributed with an "a" to Fya'o.
msg=111239 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 07:37:48 | u=3845
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
ikngopyu
[quote author=roger link=topic=4956.msg111011#msg111011 date=1266889549]
Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.
Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.
[/quote]
Kaltxì ma roger !
Why are you using a double subjunctive ? Is simply oe nerume fte tsun pivlltxe nìNa'vi correct ?
msg=111240 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 07:38:46 | u=664
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4956.msg111066#msg111066 date=1266895070]
I'd disagree and say we jut got a lot closer. When you say "I learn to speak Na'vi" in English, it seems to me that it's a short form of saying "I learn HOW to speak Na'vi".
[/quote]
It seems to me like "to speak" is an infinitive acting as a noun (another example: "I like to speak Na'vi"), but in this case the English does seem to suggest that you do not have the ability to speak Na'vi. This is probably English's fault.
I still think roger's second sentence is the "best" (most direct) translation without having to add any more words than neccesary.
Oe nume fte tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.
-Keyl
EVEN MORE OFF TOPIC:
For other constuctions, as in "I like to speak Na'vi", the noun-maker tì- is probably the way to go: Tìpllxte leNa'vi oeru prrte' lu, unless of course there are a lot of things attached to the infinitive verb like "I like to hunt stingbats with a spear" which would probably go like: Taron (ay)ritit tukrufa a fì'u oeru prrte' lu. The subject of the relative clause being oe, so it can be left out.
It seems like we will have to find something that works on a verb by verb basis.
msg=111250 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 07:51:45 | u=1120
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
roger
[quote author=ikngopyu link=topic=4956.msg111239#msg111239 date=1266910668]
[quote author=roger link=topic=4956.msg111011#msg111011 date=1266889549]
Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.
Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.
[/quote]
Kaltxì ma roger !
Why are you using a double subjunctive ? Is simply oe nerume fte tsun pivlltxe nìNa'vi correct ?
[/quote]
I think generally fte + sjv ≈ infinitive. "I learn in order that I may be able to speak", not *"I learn in order that I can speak". That is, the goal of the learning is being able to speak, but you won't necessarily be successful. You can still say oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe nìNa'vi even if the end result is oe ke tsolun pivlltxe nìNa'vi.
msg=111253 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 07:56:14 | u=1120
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
roger
Of course, there's always oe nerume lì'fyat Na'viyä.
msg=116861 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:44:40 | u=73
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Prrton
[quote author=roger link=topic=4956.msg111011#msg111011 date=1266889549]
Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.
Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.
[/quote]
I agree that these both sound like the most *Na'vi* way to say this, the 2nd being the "even more native" approach.
I don't think that that subjunctive is absolutely required here on « tsun », but I'd probably use it the same way myself.
Often feel *compelled* to use « tsun » after « fte » and just as often again to put it in the subjunctive. I'm not completely sure why, but that's what it *feels* like to me. Na'vi also seems to like « fko » more than English likes "one", but it doesn't seem required (strongly indicated) in this particular scenario to me.
msg=116868 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 08:04:27 | u=54
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Tiger
Damn me and my English only knowledge. After beating my head around trying to figure out why nobody else seemed to like my way, it finally occurred to me that it may just have been I was going after how it is said in English would not be how it is said in other languages. (And google search agrees that "learn how to X" is used far more than "learn so that X" in English, with the latter referring to indirect effects of the learning rather than direct effects.)
It would be interesting to hear Karyu Pawl's thoughts on this, but IMO it's something relatively unimportant at this point since it's just picking up details of the best way to say something we know rather than how to say something we don't.
msg=117056 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 11:57:31 | u=2873
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Skyinou
I hunt to live.
I learn to speak.
If those two sentences are correct and constructed the same way, it should be "learn so that (I can) speak"?
[quote= Prrton]
Often feel *compelled* to use « tsun » after « fte » and just as often again to put it in the subjunctive..
[/quote]
That's often use in french with "pouvoir = can = tsun" being infinitive (when we wonder about "iv" being able to make a verb infinitive), but in english it seems a little weird.
"[...]pour pouvoir parler[...]" => "[...]so that I can speak[...]"
Then it probably isn't subjonctive if "iv" can not make an infinitive. :P
(But once again we need more more mooooooooore ;D )
msg=117158 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 13:43:47 | u=1485
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Erimeyz
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg116861#msg116861 date=1267170280]
Often feel *compelled* to use « tsun » after « fte » and just as often again to put it in the subjunctive. I'm not completely sure why, but that's what it *feels* like to me. Na'vi also seems to like « fko » more than English likes "one", but it doesn't seem required (strongly indicated) in this particular scenario to me.
[/quote]
[desc=Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Na'vi, the touchy-feely language.]Ma aysute sì aysutean, werìntu ayngengaru ohel li'fyati leNa'vi, a lu li'fya le'ampi'it le'efu'it.[/desc]
- Eri
msg=123469 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 00:02:16 | u=73
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Prrton
I've recently learned (but don't have any documentation to show :-\\ ) that "ALL of the verbal infixes for EVERYTHING EXCEPT" the attachment function of -iv- after « new, tsun, zene » etc. "are OPTIONAL". I was kind of shocked, but after I thought about it a second it made sense based on K. Pawl's Mandarin, etc.
So, « [desc=Yesterday (I) WENT with Tsu'tey to and fro in the forest so (we) COULD hunt yerik.]Trram hu Tsu'tey kä kip senge na'rìngä fte tsun tivaron yerikit.[/desc] » is completely correct.
EVERYTHING that can be understood from context can be left out! There's a PARTY in my left cortex (oh and now it's in the right one too)!! Surely this will baffle many, but it makes Na'vi much more interesting and accessible to speakers of languages that commonly do this (and simultaneously lowers the barrier of entry for new learners for whom Na'vi will be their second language).
There is only ONE infix that MUST be learned to get going (-iv-). And for those who WANT to INITIALLY think of it as an IndoEuropean infinitive, go right ahead !!
Häle(frìkìn)luya!
Nawma Sa'nok >>> ;D
PS: If anyone feels that this can be moved to a more main topic without proper documentation, then please, move away. I'm just not prepared to do that. One is apt to smite me for hearsay. ;)
msg=123545 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 01:04:51 | u=54
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Tiger
I assume that äp, eyk and us are also exceptions since they change the nature of the verb. This is sort of how I've been using Na'vi for awhile actually, and it seemed like we were getting that hint from Paul for awhile.
msg=123761 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 05:36:33 | u=73
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Prrton
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=4956.msg123545#msg123545 date=1267491891]
I assume that äp, eyk and us are also exceptions since they change the nature of the verb. This is sort of how I've been using Na'vi for awhile actually, and it seemed like we were getting that hint from Paul for awhile.
[/quote]
Yes. You're right. [desc=Unquestionably]Nìkeatìpawm[/desc]. The "pre-first" things are different and more radically change the meanings, so when they are needed, they're not optional.
;D
msg=124238 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 14:46:25 | u=1485
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Erimeyz
... didn't we already know that?
[quote author=Frommer via Language Log]
First-position infixes indicate tense, aspect, or mood; there are also participial and reflexive infixes in this position, the latter being in “pre-first” position so it can co-occur with other first-position infixes. Second-position infixes indicate speaker attitude—positive orientation, negative orientation, or uncertainty/indirect knowledge. Many of these infixes are optional on the sentence level. (In discourse, however, overt indication of tense or aspect may be required.)
[/quote]
Wikibooks has been saying for a while (based on the above quote, I assume) that tense and aspect can be omitted when understood from context. I've seen various people assert (based on what, I'm not sure - maybe movie dialog?) that the formality infix can be used initially and then dropped subsequently. And we know that positive/negative infixes aren't required to express a positive/negative orientation: c.f. nga yawne lu oer.
So the new bit here is that this also applies to the uncertainty infix <ats> and the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Verb_syntax#The_Subjunctive]non-modal uses of <iv>[/url] (optative, fte, txo, tsni). Wrt <ats>, it seems kind of obvious that you can express uncertainty without explicitly marking the verb, given that we have the adverb kxawm. Or maybe that's not so obvious?
Wrt <iv>, I think we still don't understand this morpheme very well, and I'm not sure this clears it up much. We know the optative use is optional, and [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Trials_.26_transitivity]Frommer's email from Feb 15[/url] makes it clear that the forms with (optative) and without (imperative) are equivalent, at least in "modern Na'vi". As for fte, txo, and tsni, they seem to me like they're similar enough in form and style to new, tsun, and zene that the "attachment" function still requires <iv> in those cases, and unfortunately your description of your recent learning doesn't give us enough to know for sure.
On the other hand...
[quote author=Prrton's left cortex]
EVERYTHING that can be understood from context can be left out!
[/quote]
Having this as an explicitly stated principle would be a very, very valuable thing to have. I suspect it applies to much, much more than the mechanics of verbal infixes. It relates to Na'vi as a pro-drop language, for example. We've certainly seen this principle in action many, many times, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it were broadly true of the language as a whole. But before making a claim that strong, I'd want to see it from The Man himself, just so that we're all clear about it. It's a pretty big gun, and I'd want it to be fully cocked before we go around shooting it off.
If it were true, then I'd even go so far as to say that the pre-first infixes are ALSO optional, if they can be understood from context. Which may not be often, but could certainly happen:
Q: Oel sngeykirvä'i set tìkangkemit srak? I should be beginning the work now, yes?
A: Sngä'i. Begin.
The latter use of sngä'i is strictly speaking "wrong", as the implied sentence is you begin the work which would require the causative version of the verb. But under the principle of EVERYTHING that can be understood from context can be left out! then it's clear from context that A is saying you begin the work, not the work begins, so all that's needed is the bare verbal root "begin"!
(Actually, in this example, it's probably ambiguous whether A is saying you begin or the work begins. Either might be intended, and both have the same meaning in this case, so I think here you have an example of grammatically acceptable ambiguity - which is a similar, but different, principle from grammatically acceptable elision of contextually implied elements. But I think you get my point anyway, srak?)
================
Ma Prrton, I strongly suggest you consider carefully exactly what it is that you have recently learned, and then make a new top-level post explaining it as well as you can. Even if you can't quote sources directly, please paraphrase as well and as closely as you can. I think we all stand to benefit from it, and no matter what the learning is, it would benefit from a separate post.
- Eri
msg=124246 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 14:53:48 | u=1485
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Erimeyz
... and in case I didn't make it clear, regardless of my nitpicking I still take the broad point of your message, and indeed my cortices ring with the sound of merry-making.
Oops, looks like we're out of beer over at my place. Mind if we drop by and crash your party?
Got any cheese dip?
- Eri
msg=124303 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 15:44:44 | u=1485
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Erimeyz
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg123469#msg123469 date=1267488136]
PS: If anyone feels that this can be moved to a more main topic without proper documentation, then please, move away. I'm just not prepared to do that. One is apt to smite me for hearsay. ;)
[/quote]
You misspelled "heresy".
;)
msg=125023 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 23:08:44 | u=1120
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
roger
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg124303#msg124303 date=1267544684]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=4956.msg123469#msg123469 date=1267488136]
PS: If anyone feels that this can be moved to a more main topic without proper documentation, then please, move away. I'm just not prepared to do that. One is apt to smite me for hearsay. ;)
[/quote]
You misspelled "heresy".
;)
[/quote]
I think that's intentional!
msg=125028 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 23:11:33 | u=1120
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
roger
It would be nice if <ac> were grammatically required in a few cases the way <iv> is. We'll see; I don't think it's well worked out yet.
msg=125201 | topic=4956 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 01:46:51 | u=73
Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
Prrton
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=4956.msg124238#msg124238 date=1267541185]
Ma Prrton, I strongly suggest you consider carefully exactly what it is that you have recently learned, and then make a new top-level post explaining it as well as you can. Even if you can't quote sources directly, please paraphrase as well and as closely as you can. I think we all stand to benefit from it, and no matter what the learning is, it would benefit from a separate post.
- Eri
[/quote]
I heard from a bird that perhaps someone else might be doing this soon ENOUGH, so I'm not going to make any moves. ;)
msg=106055 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:09:26 | u=1120
the evidential at last
roger
Just got this:
[quote author=Frommer]
Ma oeyä eylan,
Fpìrmìl oel futa aynga natsew tsive’a fi’ut.
[ -ìrm- : past proximate imperfective – “was just thinking . . . “
-ats- : 2nd position infix indicating uncertainty or indirect knowledge: “you might want.” Could be used with “kxawm,” redundantly, for reinforcement.]
I was corresponding with someone from Wales, and the question of lenition in Celtic came up. I mentioned the connection to Na’vi and thought you might to see it too. No new content here, just history. :-)
“In 1998 I visited Ireland and of course wanted to try to learn a little Irish for the occasion. Wow! I consider myself a pretty sophisticated language learner, but Irish knocked me for a loop. (And they say English spelling is hard!) I found the mutations—if I remember correctly, eclipsis and lenition—very interesting. And lenition wound up influencing Na’vi. I had also studied Hebrew, where there’s a process of “spirantization” that has something of the same effect although in different environments, so that was an influence as well.
“The final influence was Malay/Indonesian, where certain prefixes mutate the initial consonant of the root. It always tickled me that in a Malay dictionary, you need to look up the word “menarik” under T, the word “memandang” under P, and the word “menyatukan” under S! And that situation, of course, has a parallel in Na’vi, with the “short plurals.” (You look up “hilvan” under K, “sute” under T, “fizayu” under P, etc.)
Pawl
[/quote]
msg=106098 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:26:32 | u=631
Re: the evidential at last
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]And there I thought all my talk about Irish, lenition and certain forms were just my imagination :P
Wow, what a treat today!
Thanks for sharing!
msg=106110 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:33:48 | u=430
Re: the evidential at last
TehMightyPirate
wow, I would love to have a full biography of the Na'vi language, that would be so great.
msg=106166 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:59:15 | u=1244
Re: the evidential at last
Eight
Is that going to be part of a full evidential system then?
At the moment it looks like a pretty simple epistemic modality infix... a boody handy one though.
msg=106183 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:07:59 | u=73
Re: the evidential at last
Prrton
[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106166#msg106166 date=1266613155]
Is that going to be part of a full evidential system then?
At the moment it looks like a pretty simple epistemic modality infix... a boody handy one though.
[/quote]
Oel fperìl futa furia [desc=in the sense of]*nìtì'efu[/desc] 'aw'u 'awpor livaw ke livaw, fra'u *fafì[desc=infix/particle]'itlì[/desc] hasey lu.
Keyawr?
msg=106193 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:14:19 | u=21
Re: the evidential at last
wm.annis
I am happy to see our evidential (might be the only one). My brains hurt, though, to see it in a subordinate clause.
msg=106217 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:26:40 | u=1244
Re: the evidential at last
Eight
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=5001.msg106183#msg106183 date=1266613679]
[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106166#msg106166 date=1266613155]
Is that going to be part of a full evidential system then?
At the moment it looks like a pretty simple epistemic modality infix... a boody handy one though.
[/quote]
Oel fperìl futa furia [desc=in the sense of]*nìtì'efu[/desc] 'aw'u livaw ke livaw, fra'u *fafì[desc=infix/particle]'itlì[/desc] hasey lu.
Keyawr?
[/quote]
Oel ke tslamängam futa ngal oeru pìmeng. :D
Edit: Forgot ke - quite important in this case.
msg=106306 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 22:33:49 | u=1120
Re: the evidential at last
roger
[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106166#msg106166 date=1266613155]
Is that going to be part of a full evidential system then?
[/quote]
I think that's it. There's still a question whether it's only pragmatic, or if it will be grammatically required in some constructions. I mean, can we honestly say po new kivä, since we can't really know what another person feels? Or would that be ungrammatical?
msg=106325 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 22:48:36 | u=21
Re: the evidential at last
wm.annis
[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg106306#msg106306 date=1266618829]I think that's it. There's still a question whether it's only pragmatic, or if it will be grammatically required in some constructions. I mean, can we honestly say po new kivä, since we can't really know what another person feels? Or would that be ungrammatical? [/quote]
Sure we can — they can tell us, or otherwise say things that let us know.
Evidentials must be clearly distinguished from mood (the subjunctive). The evidential is about epistemology — how you know what you're saying. The subjunctive mood says things about possibility, although in Na'vi some uses border on pure syntax.
msg=106411 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:34:46 | u=1120
Re: the evidential at last
roger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5001.msg106325#msg106325 date=1266619716]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg106306#msg106306 date=1266618829]I think that's it. There's still a question whether it's only pragmatic, or if it will be grammatically required in some constructions. I mean, can we honestly say po new kivä, since we can't really know what another person feels? Or would that be ungrammatical? [/quote]
Sure we can — they can tell us, or otherwise say things that let us know.
[/quote]
In some languages you can't. If they tell you, then you must use a quotative particle, but you can't just say someone is happy: they look happy, sound happy, etc., but not *are* happy. I suppose you might be able to say that if you're in tsaheylu, though.
msg=106486 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:51:37 | u=1244
Re: the evidential at last
Eight
[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg106306#msg106306 date=1266618829]
I think that's it.
[/quote]
Oh :(
Never studied a language with an explicit evidential system before... I was hoping for one here.
But I just don't see -ats- as particularly evidential unless we're supposed to concentrate on the second part of "indicating uncertainty or ìindirect knowledge" and in which case, anyone got a better English translation than "might"?
aynga natsew... I hear you might want... I'm told you want...
But in a subordinate clause it translates really badly
I was just thinking that I'm told you want...
Uck.
msg=106502 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:02:39 | u=21
Re: the evidential at last
wm.annis
[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106486#msg106486 date=1266627097]Never studied a language with an explicit evidential system before... I was hoping for one here. [/quote]
And this one's a doozie. I don't know how common it is to have the inferential evidential as the sole explicit form. It seems unusual to me.
Unless he goofed in his wording on the Language Log post, I don't expect to see any more evidentials for Na'vi.
[quote]But I just don't see -ats- as particularly evidential unless we're supposed to concentrate on the second part of "indicating uncertainty or ìindirect knowledge" and in which case, anyone got a better English translation than "might"?[/quote]
To quote myself, from a different post — "English (and Dutch, it turns out) uses the verb "must" to indicate both obligation and this suppositional notion. If you're going to meet a friend to see "Avatar" for the 32nd time or whatever, and you get there and don't see him, you could say, "he must be inside already." This isn't a statement of obligation, but of judgement."
So, "you must want to see this" catches the flavor, though it sounds just a bit off to me. Based on the deluge of mail he's been getting from us, he's thinking we must want this information... that works a bit better.
msg=106505 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:05:14 | u=1120
Re: the evidential at last
roger
[quote author=Eight link=topic=5001.msg106486#msg106486 date=1266627097]
Oh :(
Never studied a language with an explicit evidential system before... I was hoping for one here.
But I just don't see -ats- as particularly evidential unless we're supposed to concentrate on the second part of "indicating uncertainty or
ìindirect knowledge" and in which case, anyone got a better English translation than "might"?
aynga natsew... I hear you might want... I'm told you want...
But in a subordinate clause it translates really badly
I was just thinking that I'm told you want...
Uck.
[/quote]
A lot of Na'vi is like this: something exotic, but just a bit of it, so that the language is still accessible. A full evidential system would be extremely difficult for an English speaker to master, because not only would you have to report
with every clause what your source of knowledge was, but if you were talking about other people, you'd have to keep track of what their source of knowledge was for every clause too! That's why the Chinese have such difficulty we he / she: it's not the concept, which is easy enough, but training oneself to keep track of something that one grew up ignoring. (Though it doesn't help that they are homonyms with a Mandarin accent!)
We effectively have two evidentials here. Remember, there is no indirect speech in Na'vi. So in effect 'san ... sìk' function as a hearsay/reported-speech evidential. <ats> could then be the inferential evidential. If grammatically required in some constructions, it could be quite interesting.
msg=106514 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:13:22 | u=1244
Re: the evidential at last
Eight
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5001.msg106502#msg106502 date=1266627759]
So, "you must want to see this" catches the flavor, though it sounds just a bit off to me.
[/quote]
That sounds good to me actually. Nice thinking.
[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg106505#msg106505 date=1266627914]
A lot of Na'vi is like this: something exotic, but just a bit of it, so that the language is still accessible. A full evidential system would be extremely difficult for an English speaker to master, because not only would you have to report with every clause what your source of knowledge was, but if you were talking about other people, you'd have to keep track of what their source of knowledge was for every clause too!
[/quote]
I'm not so concerned with employing evidentials in Na'vi (I think people would be fine with that), more so in producing half decent translations back in English. But my thinking comes from having no experience in using them, only from grammatical knowledge of their existence. Does it cause many problems going back and forth between English and the real world languages that use them?
msg=106523 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:20:31 | u=1244
Re: the evidential at last
Eight
Missed this...
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5001.msg106502#msg106502 date=1266627759]
I don't know how common it is to have the inferential evidential as the sole explicit form. It seems unusual to me.
[/quote]
Me too.
If you have one evidential... and are essentially using auxiliary verbs to indicate the other meanings, then it would not be unreasonable to suspect that the last evidential form would be dropped over time by speakers, and replaced with a dual verb construct to match the others.
But... I actually think Dr. Frommer will at least give us one more to indicate there is evidence to support what the speaker is saying. No basis for saying that other than gut feeling. :D
msg=106887 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 11:01:34 | u=2873
Re: the evidential at last
Skyinou
[quote author=Frommer]
-ats- : 2nd position infix indicating uncertainty or indirect knowledge: “you might want.” Could be used with “kxawm,” redundantly, for reinforcement.]
[/quote]
The fact that this one goes with "ei" and "äng" make me think that it is more an indication given by the speaker, and not a grammatical rule. Then the translation is up to the reader, taking account of context. The first effect might be to have a more personal (with feeling) message.
non-personal and general statement: "aynga new"
personal feeling of the writer: it seems for him that we want: "aynga natsew" [Changed]
msg=107425 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:45:02 | u=1120
Re: the evidential at last
roger
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5001.msg106887#msg106887 date=1266663694]
The fact that this one goes with "ei" and "äng" make me think that it is more an indication given by the speaker, and not a grammatical rule. Then the translation is up to the reader, taking account of context. The first effect might be to have a more personal (with feeling) message.
non-personal and general statement: "aynga new"
personal feeling of the writer that we may be interested and/or I know/hope you want: "aynga natsew"
[/quote]
You seem to be taking it as meaning certainty, when F says it indicates uncertainty or inference. So I'd either state "ayga nacew cat", because it seems like you want it, or ask "ayga new srak?", where I'm not asking for inference, but for a factual statement that only you can make.
msg=107459 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:00:12 | u=2873
Re: the evidential at last
Skyinou
[quote author=roger link=topic=5001.msg107425#msg107425 date=1266695102]
You seem to be taking it as meaning certainty, when F says it indicates uncertainty or inference. So I'd either state "ayga nacew cat", because it seems like you want it, or ask "ayga new srak?", where I'm not asking for inference, but for a factual statement that only you can make.
[/quote]
Thanks for the comment, but that's not what I meant. I wanted te say something like what you say.
"po new tsat srak?" When you ask, it is not yet tainted with personal "feelings". But when you answer for him, you can add "ats" "because it seems like" he want.
"Srane, po natsew tsat".
Yes, sorry, I should have written simply:
personal feeling of the writer: it seems for him that we want: "aynga natsew"
[Edit] ma Plump: Of course.. sorry!
msg=107520 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 20:33:10 | u=631
Re: the evidential at last
Plumps83
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5001.msg107459#msg107459 date=1266696012]
"Srane, po natsew cat".[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
If you decide to use the scientific writing system, could you please be careful to do it consistantly? It's very confusing to read it one way and in another the very next word...
Irayo :)
msg=108240 | topic=5001 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 08:31:53 | u=54
Re: the evidential at last
Tiger
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=5001.msg107520#msg107520 date=1266697990]
If you decide to use the scientific writing system, could you please be careful to do it consistantly? It's very confusing to read it one way and in another the very next word...
Irayo :)
[/quote]Oe mllte.... Tsat nìgay oeru ke prrte' lu...
msg=106156 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:55:14 | u=73
OK! we got "OK"
Prrton
[quote=Pawl Frommer to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010 via e-mail]... go with "tam."
As you know, the verb means "suffice, 'do'" as in, "That'll do."
In the film, I think Grace says "Tsun tivam" in response to Norm's (very good, if formal) Na'vi. Or at least that was once going to be in the film. (As I mentioned, I have a hard time keeping track of what wound up in the final version and what got cut.)
So saying "tam" for "OK" seems appropriate. It's easy to say...[/quote]
[desc=OK! Let's use that, my friends!]Tam!, tsat sar ko, ma oeyä eylan![/desc]
____________________
msg=106164 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 20:58:14 | u=54
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Tiger
Tam, oe tsun tsakem sivi.
msg=106169 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:00:08 | u=1244
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Eight
Tam, tslolam.
Irayo.
msg=106196 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:14:55 | u=430
Re: OK! we got "OK"
TehMightyPirate
Tam.
msg=106241 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:42:32 | u=1550
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Taras
Irayo, ma tsmukan!
msg=106254 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 21:49:39 | u=1620
Re: OK! we got "OK"
dontbugme
so much new stuff within the last time
irayo nitxan ma prrton sì karyu pawl
msg=106300 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 22:28:28 | u=1485
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Erimeyz
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5007.msg106254#msg106254 date=1266616179]
so much new stuff within the last time
[/quote]
I think Pawl just wants us to enjoy our weekends. :)
msg=106803 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 08:56:20 | u=631
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Plumps83
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=5007.msg106300#msg106300 date=1266618508]
I think Pawl just wants us to enjoy our weekends. :)[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
... and he's doing a pretty good job ;D
Tam, ne tìkangkem...
msg=124286 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 15:27:01 | u=417
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Alìm Tsamsiyu
I know it may be somewhat necroing but it is pertinent to this thread.
"OK" in English can refer to many, many things. For some of these usages, "tam" / suffice, is... well... [desc=will suffice!]OK[/desc], but other usages, I'm not [desc=does NOT mean "suffice"]OK[/desc] with using "Tam."
It's intended meaning - "(O)All's (K)Correct" lends itself to usages like:
"I'm OK" (I'm all-correct) for when you are uninjured.
As a play on this, before this email was made public, we developed our own word for OK in Skype chat:
"Fra'ey" -- "Fra'u+eyawr" -- All.thing Correct.
Personally, I like this better than "Tam," because it can be used as a more affirmative and positive OK than "that'll do," which conveys a somewhat negative connotation that suggests "I guess that'll just barely work for what I want" (which OK can do, but need not always be so).
My suggestion is that maybe we can use "tam" for OK when it is applicable, and our "fra'ey" construction for other cases where it seems more applicable.
"Seems OK to me." - Tam OR Fra'ey
"Well, that's OK, but..." - Tam
"Don't worry, I'll be OK!" - Fra'ey
msg=124322 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 16:02:17 | u=2873
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Skyinou
I understand your point here, and agree with your way of thinking, but:
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=5007.msg124286#msg124286 date=1267543621]
"Seems OK to me." - Tam OR Fra'ey
"Well, that's OK, but..." - Tam
"Don't worry, I'll be OK!" -Fra'ey
[/quote]
That's just some english idioms here...
So why not taking "tam" as a Na'vi idiom and treat it that way :P
The use Prrton use here is in the beginning of the sentence or alone:
Tam!, tsat sar ko, ma oeyä eylan!
Where "Tam" goes pretty well in the sense of: enough, we have enough, we know enough
msg=124357 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 16:26:28 | u=417
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Alìm Tsamsiyu
It is English idiom, and that's precisely my purpose for introducing another word.
Those sentences I used aren't really idiomatic when you look at OK as "all-correct."
"Seems all-correct to me" - Straightforward, no obscured meaning.
"Well, that's all-correct, but..." - Here's where "suffice" would have a better meaning, so this one is more idiomatic than the others.
"Don't worry, I'll be all-correct!" - Again, straightforward.
As you see, I was trying to escape the English idiom of one, all-inclusive word for "OK" like "Tam." English uses it for both suffice and all-correct. My suggestion is that the Na'vi be less idiomatic in its usage, with a word for each use.
msg=124374 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 16:39:07 | u=1485
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Erimeyz
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=5007.msg124357#msg124357 date=1267547188]
My suggestion is that the Na'vi be less idiomatic in its usage, with a word for each use.
[/quote]
I take your point and agree whole-heartedly. Personally, I hope for Na'vi in general to be as idiomatic as English (well, almost as, anyway)... but with different idioms.
- Eri
msg=124459 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 17:55:14 | u=54
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Tiger
There is bound to be some overlap in idioms though. They are idioms for a reason - that it is such a common phrase that people wanted a short and easy way to say it.
msg=124532 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 18:46:53 | u=417
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Alìm Tsamsiyu
True - It just seemed much less likely, to me, that a word defined to be "suffice" would be used for both usages, and not a word in its own right distinctly for that purpose (like OK is).
Because "tam" is used to mean "suffice," it seemed like there would likely be another word similarly "idiomized" and contracted down (due to excessive use) that would apply to the other meaning that the English "OK" is typically employed for.
msg=125174 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 01:03:04 | u=2873
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Skyinou
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=5007.msg124357#msg124357 date=1267547188]
My suggestion is that the Na'vi be less idiomatic in its usage, with a word for each use.
[/quote]
French has no idiom for something like "ok"*. So you are right, Na'vi could not have one either (or one with some na'vi roots). But I was thinking: now that it's too late, we can just find a way to like it, rather than a way to find it stupid. ;D
*we eventually use "ok", but that's "modern"-french. Not grammaticaly correct.
msg=126139 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 14:24:57 | u=417
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Alìm Tsamsiyu
Yeah, "OK" is the most widely spoken and understood word all across Earth, but that's the Earth.
I suppose, given time, the Na'vi would likely pick up "Okey" from the humans on Pandora, but as you said, they might not even have a word that works like "OK."
With that in mind, I suppose we have to use what words they do have to translate "OK" into something they'd understand (thinking from the mindset of a human explaining "OK" to a Na'vi).
In this way, tam might be the closest word - Maybe not as close as "fra'u eyawr," but I think the purpose would be lost with such a long expression, and the contracted version "fra'ey" probably wouldn't be readily accepted.
msg=128265 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 17:11:43 | u=3552
Re: OK! we got "OK"
tigermind
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5007.msg125174#msg125174 date=1267578184]
French has no idiom for something like "ok"*.
*we eventually use "ok", but that's "modern"-french. Not grammaticaly correct.
[/quote]
what about d'accord?
msg=128562 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 19:29:49 | u=430
Re: OK! we got "OK"
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=5007.msg128265#msg128265 date=1267722703]
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5007.msg125174#msg125174 date=1267578184]
French has no idiom for something like "ok"*.
*we eventually use "ok", but that's "modern"-french. Not grammaticaly correct.
[/quote]
what about d'accord?
[/quote]
I actually thought that was "ok" as well.
msg=128581 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 19:39:13 | u=1627
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Kawazoe
We use OK a lot in french and before that, "bien" (good) was widely used.
[quote=Pawl Frommer to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010 via e-mail]
In the film, I think Grace says "Tsun tivam" in response to Norm's (very good, if formal) Na'vi.
[/quote]
Damn! We got so close to finally know how to write "formal" ;D
msg=129065 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 23:41:02 | u=2873
Re: OK! we got "OK"
Skyinou
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=5007.msg128265#msg128265 date=1267722703]
[quote author=Skyinou link=topic=5007.msg125174#msg125174 date=1267578184]
French has no idiom for something like "ok"*.
*we eventually use "ok", but that's "modern"-french. Not grammaticaly correct.
[/quote]
what about d'accord?
[/quote]
I wouldn't translate "d'accord" by "ok", because "d'accord" is used only for one meaning and use of "ok"
When it's used alone as a complete answer by itself. And there, you can also say "agree" I think. (agree = d'accord , basically)
These three can't be translate with "d'accord":
"Seems OK to me." - Tam OR Fra'ey
"Well, that's OK, but..." - Tam
"Don't worry, I'll be OK!" -Fra'ey
and the other way: But: I'm ok =/= Je suis d'accord (I agree) Which could cause some misunderstandings.
"bien" is actually "well", not "good".
And the only shared meanings with "ok" are: "Seems OK to me." => "ça me semble bien", and again, using it alone as a complete answer(or just "it's ok" = "c'est bien" but here we may want to use "bon" = "good" instead, which begin to make things complicated).
"Well, that's OK, but..." => with the negation, we should not use "C'est bien, mais..." for translating that
"Don't worry, I'll be OK!" => you can't translate by "bien" here. You use it for "je vais bien", which is a completely different idiom.
msg=129108 | topic=5007 | board=99 | time=2010-03-05 00:14:08 | u=1120
Re: OK! we got "OK"
roger
"Tam tam" would also seem to be a good translation of a phrase widely found across Africa which is typically translated into French as "doucement", and in English might be 'take care, take it easy, not so fast', etc.
msg=106383 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:12:39 | u=1120
mustn't vs. don't need to
roger
A question came up, I forget where, of whether
zene ke / ke zene meant "must not" or "don't need to". Well, we got our answer without asking. (At least, I didn't ask in this email.) Also some new words.
[quote author=Frommer]
Sìltsan nìtxan. Tìng nari nekll.
:
[That is, "See below", where he interlaced his answers w my questions, which I'll put in italics. Comments I'm adding now are in brackets.] [embedded email]
:
Did I get this right?:
Hém geyä zégke fkóru livú cá(y)hem a gáru pŕrte' ke lú.:
[this was the Golden Rule]Very fine. I’ve spelled it zenke, even though it’s pronounced with a velar nasal. And I realize I’ve been inconsistent in doing that, since I’ve spelled lumpe with an m rather than the underlying n. Was probably influenced by English (“impossible,” but “income”). But maybe a little inconsistency isn’t the worst thing in the world.
BTW, zenke and ke zene are semantically distinct:
Nga zenke kivä! ‘You must not go!’
Nga ke zene kivä. ‘It’s not obligatory (OR: it’s not a must) that you go.’
And how many people have adopted the “scientific” transcription? It’s nice to see it, although I don’t think it will ever become as popular as the “official” one. (Notice what happens when you write Tsu’tey in scientific. NOT a good association with that character. <g>)
:
and is zegke short for zene ke ?:
This one seems clear::
lǐ'fyari leNá'vi Ŕrtamì vay sét 'almóg a frá'u zerá'u ta gŕrpogu:
assuming Rrta for "Earth"; confirms grr "root" and past pfv. I assume future pfv would be 'alyog.Right. As you now know, it’s ‘Rrta.
[/quote]
So, he seems to be accepting <aly> for future subjunctive.
Unfortunately, I think I should leave out the next bit in English for now; it's not of much interest anyway except for the new vocab:
[quote]
maw (ADP-) = after (time)
hìkrr (stress on 1st) = second, very short time
tätxaw (stress in 2nd) = return (intrans.)
Maw hìkrr ayoe tìyätxaw.
[/quote]
I've suggested this before, and it now seems that Frommer would like it: Why not switch to the c, g orthography at this intermediate level? His concern is accessibility, which is why he's requested that the Wiktionary appendix be kept with ts, ng, but that's not really an issue at our level, it is? No more difficult that Fijian spelling!
The Golden Rule, BTW, is called
korén a'awve tìruséyä 'awsitég "the first rule of living together" (stress shifted on a'awve, so I can't say which is correct). Don't know if it's supposed to be a traditional Na'vi saying or not.
Some attributive forms, my transcription:
snúmìnä skxáwg [at least, I can't hear an 'a' after snúmìnä; it might be there], skxáwg asnúmìnä
skxáwg apxá, apxá skxáwg [this is confirmed in writing]
skxáwg ayáwne, yáwnea skxawg [answers old questions about the nature of 'beloved']
pxeskxékeg atxáncan, txáncana pxeskxékeg [pronounced "txansan"]
msg=106394 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:19:56 | u=1317
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
personally I like the "ts" and "ng", I do of course understand the other ways of showing them but I feel it is much nicer to look at when using them. It's all a matter of choice in the end.
msg=106421 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:46:06 | u=1225
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
neotrekkerz
[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawntsaheylu link=topic=5025.msg106394#msg106394 date=1266621596]
personally I like the "ts" and "ng", I do of course understand the other ways of showing them but I feel it is much nicer to look at when using them. It's all a matter of choice in the end.
[/quote]
I have to echo this sentiment as it's easier for me to see the phonetics this way, but it really isn't a [desc=there's no c or g in Na'vi so if you see them, then just equate]big deal[/desc].
msg=106442 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-19 23:56:19 | u=3552
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
tigermind
Well, some of this is over my head; but at the very least, the info re zenke vs. ke zene answers an important question.
Does that mean there's also *tsunke and *newke?
msg=106458 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:05:46 | u=0
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Swoka Swizaw
Yeah...no! I cannot bring myself to use an ortho' that makes Na'vi look unnatural (but that's just me). I'm glad that "ts, ng" are so popular...
msg=106481 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:47:49 | u=54
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Tiger
I actually prefer the single letter notation, I took it to an extreme when I was trying to make crossword puzzles that combined digraphs into one cell... Specifically, I assigned unused letters to the ejectives by going with the voiced consonant version of the letter, with q for k since g is already taken. (IE tx->d, px->b and kx->q.) But that was more out of necessity than out of desire for a shorthand.
Fko cun clam fì'ut ftue. Lu gay fwa kin fko nivume 'awve...
msg=106494 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:56:57 | u=1244
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Eight
I can't really see the point of changing - this is not the orthography of Na'vi, so we're not concerned with being faithful to the language - just about representing sounds. Which the current system does fine and we're all used to it.
And think of poor Taronyu - having to go through and change that whole dictionary. :D Maybe wait and see what transcription system Dr. Frommer puts into the "glossary" when it's published, before we make a call on this one.
msg=106496 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 00:59:24 | u=54
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Tiger
Meh, changing is a simple search & replace w/ the help of regular expressions. :) It's not really a huge change in notation really for ts->c and ng->g. I imagine anything published for the masses would use the common form not the scientific form, simply for accessibility to beginners.
msg=106499 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 01:01:41 | u=1244
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Eight
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=5025.msg106496#msg106496 date=1266627564]
It's not really a huge change in notation really for ts->c and ng->g. I imagine anything published for the masses would use the common form not the scientific form, simply for accessibility to beginners.
[/quote]
Well even dafter than changing forms, would be having two with such tiny differences. :)
Point taken about the REs. Lol.
msg=107285 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 17:38:09 | u=3039
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Serena
Ah, very cool
I was the one asking (here in the forum, not by email ;) ) about the negation of zene ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/translationmeaning-of-the-negation-of-zene-must/]here's the thread[/url])
so now it's:
nga zene kivä | you must go, you have to go |
nga zenke kivä | you mustn't go, you are not allowed to go |
nga ke zene kivä | you don't have to go, you don't need to go |
I like that :)
msg=107429 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:48:41 | u=1120
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
roger
[quote author=Nawmaritie link=topic=5025.msg107285#msg107285 date=1266687489]
Ah, very cool
I was the one asking (here in the forum, not by email ;) ) about the negation of zene ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/translationmeaning-of-the-negation-of-zene-must/]here's the thread[/url])
so now it's:
nga zene kivä | you must go, you have to go |
nga zenke kivä | you mustn't go, you are not allowed to go |
nga ke zene kivä | you don't have to go, you don't need to go |
I like that :)
[/quote]
When I said 'email', I meant my email to Frommer that got the above response. I hadn't asked about this in that email, though I may have in the past (I don't remember). But F supplied it anyway, because it was relevant to my translation.
msg=107435 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-20 19:51:23 | u=21
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
wm.annis
[quote author=roger link=topic=5025.msg106383#msg106383 date=1266621159]I've suggested this before, and it now seems that Frommer would like it: Why not switch to the c, g orthography at this intermediate level?[/quote]
Three months ago I would have agreed 100%. Right now it seems like a really bad idea. Either all our information in Na'vi should use the c/g orthography, or none should. Switching to c/g isn't advanced — the switch is, as you say, trivial — it's merely annoying to someone used to reading Na'vi in the ts/ng way, with no significant benefit resulting from that irritation.
msg=107953 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 01:40:19 | u=73
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Prrton
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5025.msg107435#msg107435 date=1266695483]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5025.msg106383#msg106383 date=1266621159]I've suggested this before, and it now seems that Frommer would like it: Why not switch to the c, g orthography at this intermediate level?[/quote]
Three months ago I would have agreed 100%. Right now it seems like a really bad idea. Either all our information in Na'vi should use the c/g orthography, or none should. Switching to c/g isn't advanced — the switch is, as you say, trivial — it's merely annoying to someone used to reading Na'vi in the ts/ng way, with no significant benefit resulting from that irritation.
[/quote]
I AGREE that switching would not only be annoying (for me) but I think that it would (in a dangerously difficult to quantify way) likely "raise the bar" to entry at this point for beginners. K. Pawl is right. Cu'tey is an abomination from the point of view of the uninitiated. It is easier to type than Tsu'tey, by just a touch, but I DON'T LIKE IT. It does not seem helpful in any way when faced with the massive undertaking that is effecting the realization of « 'Ivong Na'vi ». Even the spelling of THAT would change. Am I 100% down with "c" for cóng for 从／從 in pinyin? Yes! Do consider it beneficial in any way to the Na'vi-learning community right now? NO. « KEHE, hrr a1000 (vozam) !!! »
msg=107961 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 01:56:46 | u=3039
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Serena
[quote author=roger link=topic=5025.msg107429#msg107429 date=1266695321]
[quote author=Nawmaritie link=topic=5025.msg107285#msg107285 date=1266687489]
[...]
I was the one asking (here in the forum, not by email ;) ) about the negation of zene ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/translationmeaning-of-the-negation-of-zene-must/]here's the thread[/url])
[...]
[/quote]
When I said 'email', I meant my email to Frommer that got the above response. I hadn't asked about this in that email, though I may have in the past (I don't remember). But F supplied it anyway, because it was relevant to my translation.
[/quote]
I know :) I just added the words in the brackets, because I had the impression that otherwise it sounded like I wrote an eMail regarding that topic. I'm always not sure whether it comes across what I want to say in English, so I tend to add too much stuff ;)
msg=107964 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 01:59:38 | u=631
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
Plumps83
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=5025.msg107953#msg107953 date=1266716419]
I AGREE that switching would not only be annoying (for me) but I think that it would (in a dangerously difficult to quantify way) likely "raise the bar" to entry at this point for beginners. K. Pawl is right. Cu'tey is an abomination from the point of view of the uninitiated. It is easier to type than Tsu'tey, by just a touch, but I DON'T LIKE IT. It does not seem helpful in any way when faced with the massive undertaking that is effecting the realization of « 'Ivong Na'vi ». Even the spelling of THAT would change. Am I 100% down with "c" for cóng for 从／從 in pinyin? Yes! Do consider it beneficial in any way to the Na'vi-learning community right now? NO. « KEHE, hrr a1000 (vozam) !!! »
[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Another point to consider is the search function...
I use that neat tool a lot - not only here but also at the Canon site of the Learn Na'vi Wiki - it's a great way to find what you're looking for. Just a few moments ago I tried to find the word for "root" and couldn't find it because I typed in ngrr instead of grr
Changing the spelling would mean that one has to think every possible way how a word may be written.
I think most people are used to the 'official' spelling by now - changing it would also confuse a lot of newbies to the side and the language.
Just my 2c
msg=107996 | topic=5025 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 02:35:16 | u=1855
Re: mustn't vs. don't need to
tawway
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=5025.msg107964#msg107964 date=1266717578]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=5025.msg107953#msg107953 date=1266716419]
I AGREE that switching would not only be annoying (for me) but I think that it would (in a dangerously difficult to quantify way) likely "raise the bar" to entry at this point for beginners. K. Pawl is right. Cu'tey is an abomination from the point of view of the uninitiated. It is easier to type than Tsu'tey, by just a touch, but I DON'T LIKE IT. It does not seem helpful in any way when faced with the massive undertaking that is effecting the realization of « 'Ivong Na'vi ». Even the spelling of THAT would change. Am I 100% down with "c" for cóng for 从／從 in pinyin? Yes! Do consider it beneficial in any way to the Na'vi-learning community right now? NO. « KEHE, hrr a1000 (vozam) !!! »
[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Another point to consider is the search function...
I use that neat tool a lot - not only here but also at the Canon site of the Learn Na'vi Wiki - it's a great way to find what you're looking for. Just a few moments ago I tried to find the word for "root" and couldn't find it because I typed in ngrr instead of grr
Changing the spelling would mean that one has to think every possible way how a word may be written.
I think most people are used to the 'official' spelling by now - changing it would also confuse a lot of newbies to the side and the language.
Just my 2c
[/quote]
"ts" and "ng" have been used to "romanise" a number of languages and do the job quite well. People will recognize them and get the sounds about right. And that's really the point here isn't it? Easier and more accurate for most people.
It worked for the actors too, didn't it? If it works don't mess with it :)
msg=107843 | topic=5091 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 00:06:10 | u=21
subject pronoun pro-drop
wm.annis
Karyu Pawl poltxe:
[quote]BTW, subject pronoun pro-drop is good Na'vi style. The rule I've been assuming is that once you establish the identity of the subject, you can drop subsequent subject pronouns until the subject changes, at which point you cycle back to Start. People seem to be doing that fairly aggressively in English, in IMs and texting if not in actual spoken conversation. ("Saw you online and wanted to say hi. Hope everything is fine. Will try to call this week. BTW, Carol finally got in touch with me. Said she's been very busy. Didn't go to India after all. Went to Vegas instead. I can't figure her out. Guess she decided on gambling rather than the guru.")[/quote]
msg=107855 | topic=5091 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 00:15:31 | u=1317
Re: subject pronoun pro-drop
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
This will make translations go faster and make them shorter at the least.
msg=107994 | topic=5091 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 02:34:15 | u=1485
Re: subject pronoun pro-drop
Erimeyz
Make them more fun, too. :)
msg=108816 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 17:45:52 | u=21
Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
wm.annis
Starting a bit more than a week ago Frommer has been copying his email replies to people's Na'vi questions to a few people. The main Wikipedia article editor gets a copy, I get a copy, Prrton sometimes gets a copy and sometimes a few other people do (many from this forum).
When I get these I dump them into the LearnNavi.org wiki (assuming someone else hasn't already done so). We've reached a point where I'm going to stop dropping all of Frommer's email into the Canon page in one particular situation — vocabulary lists. It seems awfully silly to cut-n-paste new words onto one page of the wiki, only to create a dictionary entry on a different page of the same wiki. Anything I get about grammar, or special elaborations about a particular word usage, will still be treated in the usual way.
I realize this presents a bit of a sourcing problem, but we'll have cross-validation for all new vocab. Tarnoyu and the main editor of the Wikipedia (who works on the Wiktionary [url=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Na'vi]Na'vi Appendix[/url]) will also be getting copies of vocab-related email. A word in all three places is sound. Note that we're still missing some ASG vocab in the LN.org wiki — we've been more focused on new words and examples there, but we're nearly complete with ASG vocab, too. Note also that not all of us getting email from Frommer edit at the same pace. The Wiktionary already has the data from recent email that I've not gotten to yet.
msg=109060 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-21 20:29:50 | u=1485
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
Erimeyz
A great big thank-you is due from the LN community to you, Na'rìghawnu, Ochristi, Roger, Taronyu, Kwami, and everyone else who's been working so diligently to compile and document all the information we've gotten from Pawl.
I do hope that when he sends an email, even if it's just a word list, that someone at least posts it on the forum.
- Eri
msg=120287 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 09:26:39 | u=401
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
Harìghawnu
Sorry for awaking this thread again ... I was ill last week and wasn't able to check the forum. What William wrote about not giving vocablists any longer in the canon page but only to put the words into the vocabulary seems rational to me too. Unfortunately this will widely disqualify me from contributing to the vocabulary site any longer, since I'm not on Frommer's "mailing-list" and never got any mail from him. All what I contributed to the vocabulary was taken out of the ASG and - exspecially - out of my scrupulous word-by-word-analysis of the corpus-texts and canon-snippets, to find out the words and morphemes, which didn't exist in the vocabulary yet. Any time I got one, I inserted it into the vocabulary. Since I try to do it very diligently, I'm only at the "MND"-vocab at the moment, but there shoud be no single word or morpheme from the texts and snippets preceding it, which isn't in the dictionary and didn't get it's sourcing ... with exeption of Jake's script (which I didn't include at all at the moment) and some words still to discuss and marked red in my personal analyzing-papers.
Well ... since at least our leading Na'viists seem to get Frommer's mails, it's up to you to keep us updated with words, which weren't accessible to the rest of us otherwise. Thank you all for your engagement!
msg=120728 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 17:12:36 | u=21
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
wm.annis
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=5129.msg120287#msg120287 date=1267349199]Unfortunately this will widely disqualify me from contributing to the vocabulary site any longer, since I'm not on Frommer's "mailing-list" and never got any mail from him.[/quote]
No, no, don't go!
First of all, I make typos. Second, as long as Karyu Pawl continues to give us examples of Na'vi, as he did just last week for the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#Good_Morning_America]Good Morning America[/url] show, getting examples into the dictionary is still a valuable thing. Frommer was appreciative of that aspect of the LN.org wiki vocabulary page.
msg=120756 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 17:24:16 | u=2788
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=5129.msg109060#msg109060 date=1266784190]
I do hope that when he sends an email, even if it's just a word list, that someone at least posts it on the forum.
[/quote]
I strongly second this. The known vocabulary is now so large that poring over a dictionary (page) to find out about new words is not really an option. I wish the recent list of verbs had been posted in its entirety somewhere, which would have saved me from doing just that... ;)
msg=121291 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 20:53:31 | u=3820
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
mjcarrier
Yes while I see not posting everything on the canon page on the wiki at least post it somewhere. I saw this happen with the tokien language groups, information in a few hands deciding what to give and how. This caused a lot of arguments that I just don't want to see here. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying those who get the emails are being mean or selfish. But some people like to see the new stuff not have to search for it.
So this is what I gleaned were the new verbs.
'awstengyem ~ join (two things together)
'ärìp ~ move (something)
'em ~ cook
'i'a ~ end, conclude
fkxake ~ succeed
frìp ~ bite
ftem ~ pass by (something)
fwew ~ look for, seek, search
hangham ~ laugh
hawl ~ prepare
kä'ärìp ~ push
kllfro' ~ be responsible
kllkä ~ descend
latsi ~ keep up with someone
lek ~ heed, obey
len ~ happen, occur
lew ~ cover
lìm ~ far, be far
muntxa si ~ mate (with someone)
niä ~ grab
nong ~ follow, proceed after
pate ~ get to a place, arrive
pähem ~ arrive
piak si ~ open
pxor ~ explode
salew ~ proceed, go
sar ~ use
sleyku ~ produce
sngap ~ sting
sop ~ travel
spä ~ jump
speng ~ restore
spule ~ propel
srese'a ~ prophetize
steyki ~ anger, make someone angry
sti ~ angry, be angry
sto ~ refuse (to do something)
sung ~ add
syep ~ trap
tatep ~ lose
tätxaw ~ return (intransitive)
tì'awn si ~ camp
tìkangkem si ~ work
tìng tseng ~ back down, lit. give place
tìsraw seyki ~ hurt (someone or something)
tìsraw si ~ hurt, be painful
tsaheyl si ~ bond with, establish a neural connection
tsap'alute si ~ apologize
tsawl slu ~ grow
tsngawvìk ~ cry, weep
tsre'i ~ throw
tstu si ~ close
tsunslu ~ may, be possible
tsurokx ~ rest
win säpi ~ hurry
win si ~ rush something, make somthing fast
wem ~ fight
yän ~ fasten, tie down
yem ~ put place
There could be mistakes and duplications of previously known verbs.
msg=121526 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 22:07:22 | u=1485
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
Erimeyz
mj, thanks for the list! This will be helpful to a bunch of people. Lance did [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/my-dictionary/msg110244/#msg110244]something similar recently[/url]. The two of you may want to cross-check each others' work.
Also, you may want to cross-check Wiktionary against the LN Wiki. As it turns out, it's not too hard to find out what got added to each of them recently, since the wikis keep complete revision histories. I think I've found the points in time at which William started adding undocumented words to the LN Wiki (22:58, 22 February 2010) and Kwami started adding undocumented words to Wiktionary (20:37, 21 February 2010). So the following links will show you all the changes since then, which will (I'm assuming) include all the new words:
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Vocabulary&diff=1521&oldid=1413]Diff for Learn Na'vi Wiki Vocabulary page[/url]
[url=http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Appendix:Na'vi&diff=8500833&oldid=8461614]Diff for Wiktionary Na'vi Appendix[/url]
Unfortunately, in addition to new entries, the diffs will also show all the edits to old entries, so you'll still have to wade through a bunch of extra stuff. But if anyone really wants to see what's new, in lieu of seeing the actual emails from Frommer, this may be one way to do it.
- Eri
msg=121552 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 22:14:57 | u=3552
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
tigermind
Irayo, ma mj! By any chance, do we know if kllkä is transitive/intransitive?
i.e., "The ikran descended" vs. "He descended the ladder"
msg=121661 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 22:47:42 | u=2788
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=5129.msg121552#msg121552 date=1267395297]
Irayo, ma mj! By any chance, do we know if kllkä is transitive/intransitive?
i.e., "The ikran descended" vs. "He descended the ladder"
[/quote]
"Ground-go". I'd expect it to be intransitive, and any tool used to carry out the action to be identified with fa:
Ikran kllkamä
Po kllkamä vulfa
msg=121672 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 22:53:07 | u=3552
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
tigermind
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=5129.msg121661#msg121661 date=1267397262]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=5129.msg121552#msg121552 date=1267395297]
Irayo, ma mj! By any chance, do we know if kllkä is transitive/intransitive?
i.e., "The ikran descended" vs. "He descended the ladder"
[/quote]
"Ground-go". I'd expect it to be intransitive...
[/quote]
Good call; i didn't notice that. Irayo, ma tsmukan.
msg=121742 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:19:18 | u=3820
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
mjcarrier
Yes I guess one could look at the change log of wiki. But rather difficult to read. Just would think its much easier to post new vocabulary somewhere as people notice it. While I find it fun to discover new words by comparing old and new dictionaries. I think most people don't enjoy doing that :).
Also noticed a few verbs with added definitions:
'efu ~ feel, sense, perceive
eltu si ~ listen, pay attention, quit goofing off
fmi ~ try, attempt
pängkxo ~ chat, converse, have a conversation
pänutìng ~ promise (a thing to someone)
pey ~ wait, wait for
sngä’ ~ begin, start (intransitive)
steftxaw ~ examine, check
tok ~ be at, occupy a spacetxula ~ build, construct
tsranten ~ matter, be of import
zong ~ save, defend
And with a changed definition:
zawng ~ scream
lok ~ approach
mìn ~ turn [was marked a verb now]
txey ~ halt, stop
and
fkarut ~ peel
is a verb not a noun
verbs I missed:
fmal ~ sustain
kavuk si ~ betray
näk ~ drink
oeyktìng ~ explain (why)
pom ~ kiss
sim ~ near, be near
srung si ~ help
tem ~ shoot (intransitive)
toltem ~ shoot (transitive)
tungzup ~ drop
tsä’ ~ squirt
txopu si ~ be afraid
zup ~ fall
spelling change
srew ~ dance
Hope that is it :).
msg=122339 | topic=5129 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 12:27:07 | u=401
Re: Frommerian words and our wiki vocabulary.
Harìghawnu
[quote]Frommer was appreciative of that aspect of the LN.org wiki vocabulary page.[/quote]
Oh, really? Great to know that.
And ... no, I didn't want to say, that I leave the project, but that it's harder for people (like me), who aren't in contact with Frommer at all, to contribute to the dictionary, if his mails (or parts of them) aren't published any longer. Besides that: If Frommer appreciates the sourcing ... how will this be done now, if (in case of wordlists) the sources aren't published any longer? Will the new words get an "► (Frommer in an email known to some people)." instead of the usual link to the published source?
msg=109623 | topic=5180 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 08:22:07 | u=1
MOVED: Na'vi Scrabble!
Seabass
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=9]Your Projects / Other Resources[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=5179.0[/iurl]
msg=109624 | topic=5181 | board=99 | time=2010-02-22 08:22:46 | u=1
MOVED: Mother Jones
Seabass
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=9]Your Projects / Other Resources[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=4594.0[/iurl]
msg=111474 | topic=5262 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 13:25:06 | u=21
MOVED: Na'vi translator!
wm.annis
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=9]Your Projects / Other Resources[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=5258.0[/iurl]
msg=111932 | topic=5277 | board=99 | time=2010-02-23 18:10:58 | u=54
MOVED: Transmission Received
omängum fra'uti
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=5246.0[/iurl]
msg=112625 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 00:06:07 | u=73
« Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Prrton
[quote=Prrton]
...Is this correct? :
Oeru ke tsun livam ke'u lor to Eywa'evengä na'ring a lew säpoli fa [desc=moss]prrwll[/desc],
kxawm mungwrr fìkifkey a lew säpìyevi fa fpom sì lì'fya leNa'vi.
[quote=K. Pawl]Very fine.
Only one suggestion...
The verb säpìyevi: Why subjunctive? Why not simply säpìyi?
Argument in favor of the subjunctive: It's a world that MIGHT soon cover itself . . . etc.
Arguments in favor of the indicative:
(1) Your translation seems to indicate you're thinking of a world that WILL soon cover itself . . . etc.
(2) I like the clear parallelism between säpoli and säpìyi.
(3) The indicative is one syllable shorter.
So I'm somewhat more in favor of the indicative, säpìyi. But I think you could justify either version. Your call...
Notes:
Oeri/oeru is often a toss-up. With "lam," though, I think the dative is marginally better, since it's natural for "seem" to take the dative:
"It seems to me . . . " But you could make a case for oeri as well.
The syntax of comparatives is perhaps a bit unusual.
To say "A is adj-er than B," you simply say "A to B lu adj."
Example: Po to oe lu sìltsan. (not "sìltsan nì'ul")
No "comparative degree" of the adjective is used.
Cf. Mandarin:
Ta bi wo hao.[/quote]
[/quote]
Note on notes: For those of you who'll likely be curious... any context-sensitive effect that Altaic word order might have on the superiority of A over B is still being mulled over. ;)
[spoiler=tìRalpeng]Nothing could be (seem/appear) more beautiful to me than a Pandoran forest that has covered in moss,
except perhaps this world soon covering itself in peaceful well-being and the Na'vi language. [/spoiler]
And. If this example seems "backwards" to you compared to the « A to B » example in the notes, it's probably the semantics of « ke'u » in this context messing with your head. It certainly messed with mine plenty.
_______________________
msg=112646 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 00:31:41 | u=1120
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
roger
I like oeri. "Oeru" seems too European.
Question: is frato "than all", or is it "most"? If "than all", does that mean that to can also be a suffix, A B-to?
msg=112675 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 00:55:01 | u=73
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Prrton
[quote author=roger link=topic=5320.msg112646#msg112646 date=1266971501]
I like oeri. "Oeru" seems too European.
Question: is frato "than all", or is it "most"? If "than all", does that mean that to can also be a suffix, A B-to?
[/quote]
I think the oeRI, might be our Japanese accent, though. ;)
I don't know, but when I hear about the Altaic issue, I'll ask. I would GUESS that « -to » might yield "most". That would be convenient, but « swey » and « 'e'al » lead me to believe that it may not be that simple. Especially « 'e'al »...
What does « A to Ä swey lu » mean? Anything? K.omum nìwotx. :-\\
msg=112709 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 01:21:45 | u=1120
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
roger
You can't use "worst" or "best" with "than" either. We have other words like that in English. "Unique", for example. "More unique" is like "All people are equal, but some are more equal than others". Or "my most favorite". And F used sìltsan in his example, so I think we can assume that swey isn't intended to be suppletive for the comparative.
msg=112715 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 01:31:36 | u=73
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Prrton
[quote author=roger link=topic=5320.msg112709#msg112709 date=1266974505]
You can't use "worst" or "best" with "than" either. We have other words like that in English. "Unique", for example. "More unique" is like "All people are equal, but some are more equal than others". Or "my most favorite". And F used sìltsan in his example, so I think we can assume that swey isn't intended to be suppletive for the comparative.
[/quote]
I realize it's not intended, but I'm curious as to the exact derivation and to know if ALL of the adjectives have "irregular" forms for the superlative (pos/neg). In order to "resolve" it for myself, I've been also thinking of « swey » as "optimal", but what are « lor, sevin, kawng, snumina, apxa, & lehrrap » in the superlative. That's actually what I want to know.
msg=112718 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 01:34:44 | u=1120
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
roger
Tsole’a syeptutet atsawl frato mìsìrey.
"(and we) saw the biggest Trapper I've ever seen" (lit., "big(ger) than every(thing) in (my) life")
It's not unusual for a language to lack special superlative forms. For Na'vi we don't yet know, of course.
msg=112725 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 01:37:48 | u=1485
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Erimeyz
[quote author=roger link=topic=5320.msg112718#msg112718 date=1266975284]
For Na'vi we don't yet know, of course.
[/quote]
I'm getting that on a bumper sticker.
msg=112804 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 03:01:32 | u=631
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]I was waiting for that information :)
Thanks for sharing!
msg=113102 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 09:53:58 | u=2873
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Skyinou
[quote author=roger link=topic=5320.msg112718#msg112718 date=1266975284]
For Na'vi we don't yet know, of course.
[/quote]
I have two questions. I quoted this to say I know there is probably not a certain answer, but thinking is good for the brain ;D
- About " 'awve", isn't this kind of superlative?
" 'aw" being not an adjective is a problem (but numbers act like adjectives) and it's probably more an exception than a rule, as many languages have special words for "first, second, etc..."
- Can we use the superlative, if it exists, alone? If someone ask our great Karyu about superlative, maybe he can ask about this too?
The best singer. // The best.
Irayo!
But as Roger said, it is possible to not have superlative,
And don't you find it more beautiful? Having to make good comparison and not just saying "the most" of something.
msg=113877 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 18:36:05 | u=54
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Tiger
Despite "First" in English using a superlative looking ending, it is in fact an ordinal and not a superlative. Superlative implies there is others of a certain class of something, but the superlative is declaring something is the most of that. First isn't the "Most one" because there aren't degrees of being one.
msg=116849 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:32:19 | u=73
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Prrton
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=5320.msg113877#msg113877 date=1267036565]
Despite "First" in English using a superlative looking ending, it is in fact an ordinal and not a superlative. Superlative implies there is others of a certain class of something, but the superlative is declaring something is the most of that. First isn't the "Most one" because there aren't degrees of being one.
[/quote]
But, Tsmukan Skyinou is correct that "first" or "number one" is often used to form the superlative. That's the way it works in Japanese. You just stick 一番 (ichi-ban = "number 1") in front of the adjective and that's the superlative.
大きい家、ōkii ie, "a/the big house"
一番大きい家、ichi-ban ōkii ie, "the biggest house"
msg=116862 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 07:50:46 | u=54
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Tiger
Ke lu oe fwa ke mllte... But we also know that Karyu Pawl did not draw on Japanese directly as part of his influences. I'm sure something similar exists in other languages too. We do also have specific superlative words at this point as well. That doesn't mean they aren't exceptions, but we don't have a whole lot of examples to draw on.
The question I was responding to wasn't if 'awve could be used to form a superlative, it was if it was a superlative, which I still hold that it is not.
msg=123758 | topic=5320 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 05:31:34 | u=73
Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
Prrton
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=5320.msg116862#msg116862 date=1267170646]
The question I was responding to wasn't if 'awve could be used to form a superlative, it was if it was a superlative, which I still hold that it is not.
[/quote]
[desc=Also agreed.]Tsat nìteng mllte.[/desc]
msg=112829 | topic=5333 | board=99 | time=2010-02-24 03:27:32 | u=1
[READ ME] Post only *OFFICIAL* updates from Paul Frommer here
Seabass
This section of the forum is to share communications with [desc=Paul Frommer]Karyu Pawl[/desc] (or other news sources that provide insight into new aspects of the language).
Have a look at [iurl=http://forum.learnnavi.org/your-projects-other-resources/]Projects/Other Resources[/iurl] if you found a project or tool. Thanks~
msg=116871 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 08:10:37 | u=73
Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Prrton
There are egregious errors in the English in the PDF portion of this packet. I'm sorry. It was written at like 2:00 AM some morning that I no longer remember on fewer brain cells than were necessary to complete it properly. Oeru txoa livu.
I will never have time to code this up in HTML, but if anyone wants to do that and post it here (or more likely in the corpus somewhere), feel free. ;) Many thanks to Seabass for dealing with the large .MP3 file. Run nìneäo.
Trr lefpom, ke ma Amerika nì'aw, slä nìteng ma Kifkey nìwotx! ;D
'Ivong Na'vi!
================
[html][/html]
msg=116922 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 09:02:02 | u=1120
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
roger
Hey, thanks!
BTW, he does say that maw does not cause lenition.
I'm not surprised by ayoe. I'm more surprised by ruseyä. In ayoe, the "ayo" behaves like VCV, with the y being the onset of a syllable. In ruseyä, the "eyä" behaves like VV, with the y being the coda of a syllable. But AFAIR Frommer said Na'vi does not have this contrast.
msg=117027 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 11:23:09 | u=631
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing! I love Karyu Pawl speak! tewti! fìtìwin!!! :o
Concerning the .pdf ... Is snumina correct? I thought it was snumìna...
msg=117064 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 12:04:43 | u=3039
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Serena
Thank you very much!
[quote author=pdf]Lì’fyari leNa’vi ’Rrtamì, vay set ’almong a fra’u zera’u ta ngrrpongu.[/quote]
Do I see this correctly that <am> + <ol> --> <alm> is now confirmed?
(I apologize, if it was already)
msg=117078 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 12:15:24 | u=984
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
okrìsti
Very well done and nice transcription, and new items for my place of honor in my folder. :)
His pronunciation rules. :)
msg=117505 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 17:23:59 | u=1257
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Talis
Irayo! :)
But why is the .mp3 just at the centre-speaker?
The online-version is different, it sounds like at least stereo...
Is it an error only in my system, or is there anyone out there hearing the message just at the centre-speaker, too? :-\\
msg=117523 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 17:31:35 | u=54
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Tiger
Try a different MP3 player, or turn off surround in the one you are using? MP3 files don't typically define more than two channels (Left and right), and if they are the same, something trying to process it for surround w/ pro logic or whatever will naturally send the result to the center speaker.
msg=117584 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 18:11:46 | u=73
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Prrton
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=5504.msg117027#msg117027 date=1267183389]
[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing! I love Karyu Pawl speak! tewti! fìtìwin!!! :o
Concerning the .pdf ... Is snumina correct? I thought it was snumìna...
[/quote]
SNUmìna. You are correct that it should be « ì » not « i ». The stress in pronunciation falls on the « SNU- »
[desc=I also seems to me that my Na'vi is not so great in the middle of the night either.]Nìteng, leram oer fwa oeyä lì'fya leNa'vi kop ke lu fìtxan txantsan nìkxamtxon.[/desc] ;)
msg=117667 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 18:54:43 | u=1485
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Erimeyz
[quote author=roger link=topic=5504.msg116922#msg116922 date=1267174922]
But AFAIR Frommer said Na'vi does not have this contrast.
[/quote]
I recall this being said, but I don't recall it being said by Frommer. I looked for it recently and couldn't find it.
- Eri
msg=117695 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:10:30 | u=1485
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Erimeyz
Thank you to Paul, Prrton, and everyone else for sharing this - especially the audio. It's a sheer delight to listen to Pawl nìNavi.
I really liked hearing the new word nìwin'it quickly-bit "a little quickly", i.e. not as quickly as nìwin. Although just from the audio it almost sounds like *nìwini'it, but I don't think that's what he was saying (listen for yourself - 00:13 and 00:56).
- Eri
msg=117707 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:18:11 | u=2788
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Erimeyz link=topic=5504.msg117695#msg117695 date=1267211430]
I really liked hearing the new word nìwin'it quickly-bit "a little quickly", i.e. not as quickly as nìwin. Although just from the audio it almost sounds like *nìwini'it, but I don't think that's what he was saying (listen for yourself - 00:13 and 00:56).
[/quote]
I took it as nìwin nì'it myself.
msg=117709 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:19:24 | u=1120
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
roger
[quote author=Nawmaritie link=topic=5504.msg117064#msg117064 date=1267185883]
Do I see this correctly that <am> + <ol> --> <alm> is now confirmed?
[/quote]
Frommer has confirmed this and implied the rest are regular. I posted that somewhere on the corpus page. I'd asked "[this] confirms grr "root" and past pfv. I assume future pfv would be 'alyog." To which he replied, "Right."
msg=117714 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:20:51 | u=1485
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Erimeyz
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=5504.msg117707#msg117707 date=1267211891]
I took it as nìwin nì'it myself.
[/quote]
Ah, yes. And right you probably are.
- Eri
msg=117717 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-26 19:22:18 | u=54
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Tiger
Also worth noting that kì'ong is "Slow" and not a type of fruit or vegetable. And nìk'ong is the adverb form "Slowly".
msg=118542 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 04:03:15 | u=1643
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Rain
Irayo ma Prrton, ma Karyu Pawl! It helps immensely with my pronounciation. Especially when it is first said slowly, then repreated quickly.
msg=118574 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 04:53:24 | u=73
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Prrton
[quote author=Rain link=topic=5504.msg118542#msg118542 date=1267243395]
Irayo ma Prrton, ma Karyu Pawl! It helps immensely with my pronounciation. Especially when it is first said slowly, then repreated quickly.
[/quote]
Frakrr nìmeuia, ma tsmuk! ;D
msg=118610 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 06:44:46 | u=1225
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
neotrekkerz
We had a possible question a while ago for the next email to Karyu Pawl regarding what happens, pronunciation-wise, when the attributive marker -a- encounters a consonant such that a [desc=Do you pronounce it as "a then consonant," or as a diphthong]diphthong is created[/desc]. Well, listening from 3:10 to 3:12 skxawng ayawne, it appears you pronounce it as a diphthong. So we can scratch that off the list.
msg=118625 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 07:03:37 | u=1120
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
roger
Not so fast! In "ayoe" it instead behaves as VCV. When should it be VV, and when VCV?
msg=118633 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 07:22:49 | u=1225
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
neotrekkerz
Ayoe is a plural form, I was not trying/meaning to imply pronunciation rules for plurals, only for -a- pertaining to adjectives.
msg=118642 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 07:47:42 | u=1120
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
roger
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=5504.msg118633#msg118633 date=1267255369]
Ayoe is a plural form, I was not trying/meaning to imply pronunciation rules for plurals, only for -a- pertaining to adjectives.
[/quote]
Sure, but why attribs if not plurals? That's still a question to ask: if this is correct, then the letters y and w would appear to each stand for two different phonemes.
msg=118648 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 08:03:57 | u=1225
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
neotrekkerz
Definitely, and personally I think it would be very cool if they did.
msg=118840 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 12:38:13 | u=1257
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Talis
[quote]Try a different MP3 player, or turn off surround in the one you are using? MP3 files don't typically define more than two channels (Left and right), and if they are the same, something trying to process it for surround w/ pro logic or whatever will naturally send the result to the center speaker.[/quote]
I don't use something like a software-sorround-decoder and it's equal which player I'm using...
it seems to me that it's just because the file is mono... I turned it in stereo and now it works correctly. ^^
msg=119905 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 01:25:41 | u=631
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Can you confirm the vocab vor "slow" / "slowly" again as kì'ong / nìk'ong?
msg=120107 | topic=5504 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 03:46:06 | u=1485
Re: Good Morning America Related Phrases (and audio recording)
Erimeyz
In Prrton's notes in the pdf, he says:
[quote author=Prrton]
Txon’ong is the word I came up with for “evening”. “Morning” remains undefined/undisclosed. Honestly, I don’t think it exists yet, so please go comment on the “Time on Earth in Na’vi” proposal in Intermediate.
[/quote]
That thread is closed, so [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/idiom-suggestion-morning/]I started a new one[/url] with my ideas for "morning".
- Eri
msg=119060 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 16:03:56 | u=5138
Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Plltxeyu
Brothers and sisters,
I know I'm kind of new to this, but even I know that Na'Vi has over 1000 words. Very impressive for such a young language. However there are still words we don't have a translation for.
(Correct me if I'm wrong) Frommer has announced that he is still working out a deal with
[quote]those who have brought us “Avatar” and the world of Pandora[/quote]
for rights to expand the language to it's fullest extent.
Frommer has said in many interviews that he has created words on a "as need" basis. Instead of waiting and analyzing everything he sends us for insight on new words, why don't we try to help him out. We should collectively come up with a list of words that we think the Na'Vi language needs the most. That way, we can be ready to expand the language as soon as Frommer receives the OK.
Any thoughts?
msg=119237 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 17:59:05 | u=1485
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Erimeyz
It's a good idea!
There's a page on the Learn Na'vi wiki for collecting that kind of information: [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Desired_Vocabulary]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Desired_Vocabulary[/url] . Check it out and see if it's the kind of thing you're contemplating.
Also, there's [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/]a forum thread[/url] for collecting other types of information we'd like Frommer to supply besides just vocabulary.
- Eri
msg=119286 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 18:26:15 | u=5138
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Plltxeyu
It is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. Irayo for that link.
I have seen the thread that you suggested and that to me seemed more like a list of grammatical questions (which are equally as important) rather than words we want to add to our vocabulary.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but regular viewers cannot edit the wiki page. (Which is a good thing, because if we could it would be chaos.)
Because of that, I think this thread should be for suggesting words to add to that wiki page.
If anyone has ideas for new words that are not on the list below, please post here.
Irayo!
--------
Currently the words on the wiki page are as follows:
remember (possible ’ok si (seyki?) for remind and ’ok säpi for remember; but a transitive root may be easier in the long run — WmAnnis and Prrton)
forget
meet (make acquaintance; go to a meeting)
say (if not plltxe)
vanish, disappear
annoy, irritate, bother
worry
trick, cheat
wake up (txen si/säpi for intransitive, txen seyki for transitive — Prrton)
sit (down)
taste (note "I taste the food" vs. "the food tastes funky")
continue, keep on
pick up (off a surface)
to be born
hide (tr. and intr.)
to confuse (or be confused)
interest, be interesting (be fascinating)
boring, dull
to tire, make tired, be tired, sleepy, etc.
calculate, figure out
verify semantic range of tung (allow, permit, etc.)
ignore
join (a group)
complete, finish (’‹eyk›i’a ?)
suffer, endure, put up with, tolerate
already
to compare
to be sure/confident
to wonder
to joke/tease
to fail/mess up
to plan
to design
to hate/detest/despise
to be surprised (in a good way)
to be shocked (by something perceived as negative)
to forgive
to argue
luck, chance
thing
happy
sad
msg=119427 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 19:39:51 | u=1485
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Erimeyz
Actually, anonymous users can't edit the wiki pages, but anyone can create an account (it's even easier than creating an account on the forum), and anyone can edit the pages after they've created their account.
Regardless, I think posting ideas on this forum thread is a good idea, so that we can discuss them. The wiki is a good place to store things, the forum is a good place to talk about things.
- Eri
msg=119439 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 19:46:03 | u=1921
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
pbhead
I think we need words for "little" (as in ketxan, which is what i have been using... (not much))
and..
grey, soft, and head.
so i can change my name to soft, grey fngap head.
msg=119523 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 20:33:07 | u=42
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
omegaorb
yeah, I think a list of words that we need would be a great thing to have, just to give to Frommer to decide what it is he wants to give us. As long as your not trying to make up your own Na'vi words, im fine with this thread being open.
msg=119543 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 20:45:19 | u=21
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
wm.annis
[quote author=pbhead link=topic=5604.msg119439#msg119439 date=1267299963]
I think we need words for "little" (as in ketxan, which is what i have been using... (not much))[/quote]
Why not use hì'i?
We have been promised some color words (during the Good Morning America discussion with him, evidently), so I hesitate to add any to the list until we hear fro Karyu Pawl about those.
msg=119592 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 21:17:35 | u=2873
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Skyinou
Kaltxì,
We need a word for "well done/bravo"
msg=119613 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 21:27:56 | u=1620
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
dontbugme
i think this is a good place to gather not only unknown words but also thoughts/discussions about the real meaning of known or unknown words
e.g.:
i wonder if the na'vi have a word for "translation", not paraphrase ?
did they have the concept of translating before human arrived?
to answer this you would need to know if there other languages or dialects spoken on pandora.
or is there a more general word that might include interpreting gestures, animal voices, ... ?
msg=119664 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 21:56:38 | u=465
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Hysvear
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5604.msg119613#msg119613 date=1267306076]
e.g.:
i wonder if the na'vi have a word for "translation", not paraphrase ?
did they have the concept of translating before human arrived?
to answer this you would need to know if there other languages or dialects spoken on pandora.
or is there a more general word that might include interpreting gestures, animal voices, ... ?
[/quote]
Translate also means to interpret, and the word for interpret is ralpeng, so i guess you could use that. :)
msg=119700 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 22:27:13 | u=1550
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Taras
Kaltxì
I would like to know more colors. Now we have only two colors: blue and yellow. Not necessarily a lot of colors, least the basic only: red, green, black, white etc.
Irayo ;)
msg=119714 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 22:40:12 | u=1620
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
dontbugme
[quote author=Tsway'eion link=topic=5604.msg119664#msg119664 date=1267307798]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5604.msg119613#msg119613 date=1267306076]
e.g.:
i wonder if the na'vi have a word for "translation", not paraphrase ?
did they have the concept of translating before human arrived?
to answer this you would need to know if there other languages or dialects spoken on pandora.
or is there a more general word that might include interpreting gestures, animal voices, ... ?
[/quote]
Translate also means to interpret, and the word for interpret is ralpeng, so i guess you could use that. :)
[/quote]
i also thought about ralpeng, it comes close but its only 1directional. im shure that its no problem to find a paraphrase for "translation", and that everyone would understand it. maybe there is even no need for this actual word in Na'vi.
i wanted to point out that we should try to ask for concepts instead of clear eqivalents.
if we ask how to describe a specific situation insead of asking for words there would be more space for creativity.
i know that karyu frommer thinks about the actual meaning of words when he creates them, but good questions might be a helpfull inspiration. So it might be a bit easier for him to find the word that fits best to the spirit of the language.
If there is a way to help him, then i think it would be to tell him how we interprete, use and think about the language.
msg=119798 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-27 23:45:30 | u=1921
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
pbhead
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=5604.msg119543#msg119543 date=1267303519]
[quote author=pbhead link=topic=5604.msg119439#msg119439 date=1267299963]
I think we need words for "little" (as in ketxan, which is what i have been using... (not much))[/quote]
Why not use hì'i?
[/quote]
well, I would like to say something like "I know a little navi"... and little in that case is different from small.
small boy and little boy work... but not for something of quantity... like I have a little money vs I have small money.
msg=119911 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 01:30:46 | u=1120
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
roger
nì'it "a little, a bit"
msg=120398 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 13:45:53 | u=5138
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Plltxeyu
So...
Currently the words that we have decided to put on the list are;
[quote]
Kemaweyan:
I would like to know more colors. Now we have only two colors: blue and yellow. Not necessarily a lot of colors, least the basic only: red, green, black, white etc.
[/quote]
[quote]
Skyinou:
We need a word for "well done/bravo"
[/quote]
I definitely agree with 'eylan na'viyä. We should try to convey our ideas in concepts that might prove to be an inspiration to the karyu who inspired us. However, Some ideas probably don't need concepts to go along with them, like colors (pretty straightforward, right?)
Unless! Since we are talking about Pandora after all, and they to have bioluminescent flora and fauna(living things that produce light) Maybe that would change the concept of the colors?
Irayo!
msg=120574 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 15:45:54 | u=1485
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Erimeyz
[quote author=Plltxeyu link=topic=5604.msg120398#msg120398 date=1267364753]
Since we are talking about Pandora after all, and they to have bioluminescent flora and fauna(living things that produce light) Maybe that would change the concept of the colors?
[/quote]
It could, and I hope it does. I wrote a post on that subject [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/msg104892/#msg104892]over here[/url].
- Eri
msg=121731 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:13:44 | u=5138
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Plltxeyu
Excellent post!
I agree entirely, both on colors and the concept of directions that you mentioned.
On another note, how about the concept of food? There is a word for eat yom, but there is no word for food or an adj. to describe something that one finds delicious.
Hmmmmmm...
msg=121753 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 23:24:26 | u=2788
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Plltxeyu link=topic=5604.msg121731#msg121731 date=1267398824]
On another note, how about the concept of food? There is a word for eat yom, but there is no word for food or an adj. to describe something that one finds delicious.
[/quote]
A general word for "food" would be good, yes. We have wutso dinner, served meal and pxasul fresh, appealing (of food).
msg=121921 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 01:54:55 | u=1120
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
roger
I wonder if sa:yom could be used for "food".
msg=122176 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 07:54:09 | u=1620
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
dontbugme
[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg121921#msg121921 date=1267408495]
I wonder if sa:yom could be used for "food".
[/quote]
if you cant make an ä, it might be better to make an "â"(a+^) instead than an "a:"
msg=122201 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-01 08:15:54 | u=1120
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
roger
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5604.msg122176#msg122176 date=1267430049]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg121921#msg121921 date=1267408495]
I wonder if sa:yom could be used for "food".
[/quote]
if you cant make an ä, it might be better to make an "â"(a+^) instead than an "a:"
[/quote]
I'm on a borrowed computer and don't have my usual plugins. I just noticed we have ä and ì in the edit window.
msg=123705 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 04:10:44 | u=73
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Prrton
[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg122201#msg122201 date=1267431354]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=5604.msg122176#msg122176 date=1267430049]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg121921#msg121921 date=1267408495]
I wonder if sa:yom could be used for "food".
[/quote]
if you cant make an ä, it might be better to make an "â"(a+^) instead than an "a:"
[/quote]
I'm on a borrowed computer and don't have my usual plugins. I just noticed we have ä and ì in the edit window.
[/quote]
Did your computer, in fact, melt? :'(
We just got säfpìl for "idea" so säyom doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility, but it seems unlikely to me that there would not be one or more roots for plain ol' "food". Also, sä- seems to have a bit of a causative/agent thing going on. I guess that food can "enable" one to/ be a "vehicle" for eating, but hmmm...
msg=123802 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 06:34:14 | u=1120
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
roger
No, but the rattling was so loud I couldn't hear myself think. Turns out it's mounted directly to the motherboard with no access panel, so nearly everything has to be disassembled to get to it. And there there's no part no. to order a new one, assuming I figure out how to pry it off.
Yeah, säyom isn't very agentive. But then neither is sänume. Though I must admit the justification for "food" is worse than for "idea" or "instruction"; säyom would perhaps more likely be "appetite" or "hunger", the abstraction that makes you eat. Perhaps tìyom could be used for both "food" and "meal", like "good eats" in English.
msg=125196 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 01:40:52 | u=73
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
Prrton
[quote author=roger link=topic=5604.msg123802#msg123802 date=1267511654]
No, but the rattling was so loud I couldn't hear myself think. Turns out it's mounted directly to the motherboard with no access panel, so nearly everything has to be disassembled to get to it. And there there's no part no. to order a new one, assuming I figure out how to pry it off.
Yeah, säyom isn't very agentive. But then neither is sänume. Though I must admit the justification for "food" is worse than for "idea" or "instruction"; säyom would perhaps more likely be "appetite" or "hunger", the abstraction that makes you eat. Perhaps tìyom could be used for both "food" and "meal", like "good eats" in English.
[/quote]
Tìyom sounds like "consumption" to me and that it could be extrapolated even to something along the lines of [desc=a bodily disease of consumption/withering]säspxin letìyom tokxä[/desc] or säspxin tìyomä letokx.
msg=125395 | topic=5604 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 04:15:54 | u=21
Re: Project GreenQuill ~ Increasing the Na'Vi Lexicon
wm.annis
Everyone might find this interesting: [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/information-please-read/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/information-please-read/[/url]
msg=121329 | topic=5690 | board=99 | time=2010-02-28 21:05:21 | u=54
MOVED: more words?
omängum fra'uti
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=4]Intermediate[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=5684.0[/iurl]
msg=123484 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 00:22:55 | u=73
Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
Prrton
Just a dribble, but...
[quote=Paul Frommer]Tewti, ma Prrton! Txantsana tìkangkem, txantsana aysäfpìl.
[As you can guess, säfpìl = idea, thought -- sä.FPÌL]
Lu awngar aytele apxay a teri sa'u pivlltxe...
« Teri » does not cause lenition. "Sa'u" is a short plural (short for aysa'u, of course): Literally: We have many matters that (we) may speak about THEM (or: THOSE THINGS)--i.e., we have a lot to talk about.
For the equivalent of "isn't that true?" "¿verdad?" "n'est-ce pas?" etc. let's go with "kefya [ke.FYA] srak?" or, as an equivalent shorter form, "kefyak?" (Derived, as we discussed, from "ke fìfya srak?")
[/quote]
- säfpìl = idea
- ..., kefya srak? or just ..., kefyak? = ..., isn't it? ..., right?
- sa'u (short plural) = those things
'Ivong Na'vi!
msg=123510 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 00:41:04 | u=1550
Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
Taras
Txantsana fmawn, irayo ;)
msg=123590 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 01:47:12 | u=1317
Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
Every little bit helps. :D
msg=123904 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 09:10:50 | u=2788
Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
Lance R. Casey
[quote=Paul Frommer]"Sa'u" is a short plural (short for aysa'u, of course): Literally: We have many matters that (we) may speak about THEM (or: THOSE THINGS)--i.e., we have a lot to talk about.[/quote]
So there are now no less than three ways to render "those"?
tsahem
tsayhem
(ay)sakem
msg=123918 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 09:24:56 | u=1120
Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
roger
Are all three attested on the same root? I wonder if the difference is that ca- is considered a prefix on -kem, but not in the case of ca'u. Might correspond w stress: in cakem, it is kem that is stressed and takes the plural; in ca'u, it is ca- that is stressed and takes the plural.
msg=123930 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 09:37:49 | u=2788
Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=roger link=topic=5770.msg123918#msg123918 date=1267521896]
Are all three attested on the same root? I wonder if the difference is that ca- is considered a prefix on -kem, but not in the case of ca'u. Might correspond w stress: in cakem, it is kem that is stressed and takes the plural; in ca'u, it is ca- that is stressed and takes the plural.
[/quote]
No, they're not. Where has the stress for tsa'u been given? At least in fì'u, Frommer stresses the ultima.
msg=123960 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 10:12:01 | u=1620
Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
dontbugme
Txantsana fmawn !
:D
thanks for sharing
msg=123987 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 10:31:23 | u=1120
Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
roger
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=5770.msg123930#msg123930 date=1267522669]
[quote author=roger link=topic=5770.msg123918#msg123918 date=1267521896]
Are all three attested on the same root? I wonder if the difference is that ca- is considered a prefix on -kem, but not in the case of ca'u. Might correspond w stress: in cakem, it is kem that is stressed and takes the plural; in ca'u, it is ca- that is stressed and takes the plural.
[/quote]
No, they're not. Where has the stress for tsa'u been given? At least in , Frommer stresses the ultima.
[/quote]
I'm just speculating.
Where do we have the stress of fì'u attested, other than it contracting to fu-?
msg=124104 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 12:04:41 | u=2788
Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=roger link=topic=5770.msg123987#msg123987 date=1267525883]
Where do we have the stress of fì'u attested, other than it contracting to fu-?
[/quote]
[url=http://www.archive.org/download/FrommerSpokenNavi/TsunOeNgahuPivngkxoAFuOeruPrrteLu.mp3]Tsun oe ngahu pivängkxo a fì'u oeru prrte' lu[/url]
msg=125020 | topic=5770 | board=99 | time=2010-03-02 23:03:52 | u=1120
Re: Txantsana pxesìsung, kefyak?
roger
thanks!
msg=125226 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 02:05:42 | u=73
Good Luck with this one!
Prrton
I proposed a non-direct-translation of "Good Luck (with this/that)! with wayward syntax but a good heart and got:
[quote=Paul Frommer]I like it! Just a change in the syntax:
Since si-constructions take subjects in the unmarked (non-ERG.) case and objects in the dative, it would be:
(Fìtxeleri) Ngaru lrrtok! (sivi (Nawma Sa'nok))
For the shorter version, I like:
Lrrtok ngar!
It’s easier to pronounce.
A slightly different version:
Aylrrtok ngar. (with an understood “livu”)
Cf. the all-purpose holiday or celebrational greeting:
Ftxozäri aylrrtok ngaru. (Smiles to you on your celebration. That appeared on JC’s birthday cake several years ago.)
P.[/quote]
So it's:
[whatever needs the luck]-ri/ìri ngaru lrrtok!
or
[whatever needs the luck]-ri/ìri lrrtok ngar!
or
[whatever needs the luck]-ri/ìri ngaru lrrtok sivi Nawma Sa'nok! (If the lottery winnings are at stake!)
I felt incredible jealousy when I read the last part and imagined all of those people who must have had a bite of that cake SEVERAL YEARS AGO! Think how FLUENT they could all be today! :o
msg=126152 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 14:42:11 | u=1921
Re: Good Luck with this one!
pbhead
:o
I want a birthday cake with na'vi on it...
just goes to show how long this language has been in development.
msg=126777 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-03 20:59:48 | u=417
Re: Good Luck with this one!
Alìm Tsamsiyu
Well - I'm sure many of us are probably already more fluent than most (if not all) of the people at that party (except maybe Frommer, since we do get more time to actually speak it than he does).
Just makes it an even bigger shame that they've all had access to it for that long as well as immediate contact with others who could potentially speak it, but yet now can probably barely say two or three words on average.
msg=128468 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-04 18:53:50 | u=1225
Re: Good Luck with this one!
neotrekkerz
[quote]
I want a birthday cake with na'vi on it... [/quote]
Just remember, [desc=portal reference]the cake is a lie[/desc]
msg=134245 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-08 15:22:22 | u=430
Re: Good Luck with this one!
TehMightyPirate
Oooh, my birthday is in a few weeks, totally gonna have to get some Na'vi put on my cake.
msg=134405 | topic=5838 | board=99 | time=2010-03-08 16:32:33 | u=1650
Re: Good Luck with this one!
xenro-hachi
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=5838.msg128468#msg128468 date=1267728830]
Just remember, [desc=portal reference]the cake is a lie[/desc]
[/quote]
[desc=Cake]Keyk[/desc] tsleng lu? :P
msg=131570 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-06 18:48:01 | u=1920
info on duals and vocative
willphase
Some info on use of the dual from Frommer:
[quote=Frommer]
The dual forms are expected with things that naturally come in pairs. So if you’re talking about your eyes, ears, feet, or hands, you should use those forms. “My eyes” is therefore “oeyä menari,” not “oeyä aynari.” (I know a little Hebrew, and I think that’s the case in Modern Hebrew as well.) But what if you wanted to say, “Many eyes were staring at him”? There I’d use the regular plural; “many two eyes” doesn’t make sense. (But I should ask my Israeli friends what happens in that case in Hebrew.)
I agree that to say “I have two cars,” the dual shouldn’t be enforced.
[/quote]
[quote=me]
Q: How many children do you have? (not using dual, because I don't know the answer)
A: I have two.
Q: How old are they? (now are you using the dual for 'they', or can you use the plural?)
[/quote]
[quote=Frommer]
As to pronouns, your hypothetical conversation is right on the beam: Once you’ve established that there are two kids, you should use the dual form.
A useful guideline is this: If it’s natural to say “both” in English, then it’s likely you should use the dual in Na’vi. In the case of your conversation, the last speaker could have said, “How old are they both?” So s/he would probably use “mefo” for “they.”
I myself have trouble remembering to use the dual form when two people are involved, especially in the first person. One thing I’ve found that helps is that if I can substitute “we two” or “the two of us” or “you and I” for “we,” then I know I should use the dual form. Same for the second person forms (“you two”) and third person forms (“those two”).
[/quote]
And, some info on use of vocative from an older email
[quote=Frommer]
As for the inconsistency in using the vocative . . . well, let's just say that consultants like me don't have "creative control," and sometimes a bit of back-fitting is necessary. With the vocative, I've modified the rule so that it's obligatory when you're talking to people (including Eywa!) but optional when talking to animals. I think you get the point. ;-)
[/quote]
Will
msg=131600 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-06 19:12:10 | u=631
Re: info on duals and vocative
Plumps83
[quote author=Will Txankamuse link=topic=6165.msg131570#msg131570 date=1267901281]
Some info on use of the dual from Frommer:
[quote=Frommer]
The dual forms are expected with things that naturally come in pairs. So if you’re talking about your eyes, ears, feet, or hands, you should use those forms. “My eyes” is therefore “oeyä menari,” not “oeyä aynari.” (I know a little Hebrew, and I think that’s the case in Modern Hebrew as well.) But what if you wanted to say, “Many eyes were staring at him”? There I’d use the regular plural; “many two eyes” doesn’t make sense. (But I should ask my Israeli friends what happens in that case in Hebrew.)
I agree that to say “I have two cars,” the dual shouldn’t be enforced.
[/quote][/quote]
[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing. :)
Just to see whether I get that right - the dual (and probably trial as well) is optional with things that doesn't come in pairs naturally (or do I misunderstand "shouldn't be enforced"?). That would mean that you could say either
lu oeru mehunsìp
or
lu oeru munea kunsìp or ... munea ayhunsìp ???
msg=131787 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-06 21:46:04 | u=1920
Re: info on duals and vocative
willphase
I read 'shouldn’t be enforced' meaning that it's valid to use either the dual (me-) or the normal plural (ay-) when pluralising things that don't come naturally in pairs (e.g. the 'two cars' example he gave, you could use either).
When using a numeral as an adjective attached to a noun it would appear that the noun doesn't take the plural e.g when Norm is talking to Grace he doesn't pluralise 'year' but seems to just attach five as an adjective (and also see 'awa tìpawmìri [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Numerals]here[/url]).
so in your example
lu oeru hunsìp (I have gunships, using plural, dropping the ay-)
lu oeru mehunsìp (I have gunships, using the dual)
lu oeru ayhunsìp (I have gunships, using plural)
lu oeru munea kunsìp (I have two gunships)
would all be fine (in my view).
Will
msg=131953 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 00:13:50 | u=1120
Re: info on duals and vocative
roger
[quote author=Will Txankamuse link=topic=6165.msg131787#msg131787 date=1267911964]
I read ... it's valid to use either the dual (me-) or the normal plural (ay-) ... e.g. the 'two cars' example he gave, you could use either).
[/quote]
I doubt that's what he meant. If it's "two cars", or you know it's two cars, I doubt you could use the plural. I think what he meant is that if you say "two cars" you don't need the dual, but can use the singular, as in your example.
msg=132147 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 04:24:03 | u=1485
Re: info on duals and vocative
Erimeyz
Thanks for sharing!
msg=132225 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 06:41:04 | u=73
Re: info on duals and vocative
Prrton
[quote author=Will Txankamuse link=topic=6165.msg131570#msg131570 date=1267901281]
And, some info on use of vocative from an older email
[quote=Frommer]
As for the inconsistency in using the vocative . . . well, let's just say that consultants like me don't have "creative control," and sometimes a bit of back-fitting is necessary. With the vocative, I've modified the rule so that it's obligatory when you're talking to people (including Eywa!) but optional when talking to animals. I think you get the point. ;-)
[/quote]
Will
[/quote]
I'm glad to see this. I thought that the vocative was kxanì with animals. I'm glad that it can be used! Sìltsan leiu nang!
msg=132231 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 06:49:11 | u=54
Re: info on duals and vocative
Tiger
Now I just need to find out where the line is between sevin and lor...
For example is a nantang sevin or lor? What about a kxetse? A kxetse nangangä? How about a plant, is that sevin or lor? What if it's one of the weird Pandoran plants that has a nervous system and reacts to the environment in an animal like way? Etc etc.
msg=132244 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 07:39:03 | u=1120
Re: info on duals and vocative
roger
I imagine it's how the person means "pretty". When we say an animal is beautiful, or a landscape, we don't mean it in the same way as a person being beautiful. I think that's prob'ly the diff, not the animacy of the thing. If you said a person was "lor", you'd mean that they're beautiful the way you think a horse is beautiful, but not physically attractive. (Well, unless you're into horses, but we won't go there.)
msg=132332 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 10:20:56 | u=54
Re: info on duals and vocative
Tiger
The physically attractive comparison of a horse vs a person doesn't work though, because Grace uses "sevin" on the Na'vi children, and you would hope there is also not the same sort of attraction there. So if Grace can find that sort of beauty in Na'vi children, why can't someone find that sort of beauty in, say, an animal?
It could still be a semantic difference though, for example "sevin" could be something like "Radiant".
msg=132367 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 10:53:03 | u=1120
Re: info on duals and vocative
roger
But we do the same thing in English. Although we deny it, we do speak of children being beautiful the way we speak of adults, or we'll say "she's going to be beautiful when she grows up", or "he's gonna be a real heart-breaker", which is just a way of getting around the taboo. Or "my you're getting handsome/pretty". And we dress up our children to be handsome/beautiful too, even when they're quite young. We even have beauty pageants for little girls, though granted some people do find that rather gross. (Consider the recent controversy in Rio.) By "physically attractive" I don't mean "sexy", but we do see children as beautiful as fellow human beings in a way we don't see animals or flowers as beautiful. Women will also speak of other women as beautiful (my mom does it constantly), and men sometimes admit that other men are handsome, but that doesn't mean they're gay (at least for women; most straight men are too phobic to be comfortable saying s.t. like that). Why else would little boys dislike being called "pretty", or would it be an insult to call a little girl "handsome"? "Handsome" is actually a good parallel to "sevin": it's almost restricted in use for male people. We even speak of newborns as "beautiful" when by all objective criteria they're pretty disgusting looking. (Sorry, I've never seen a baby before about 6 mos. that was cute. But to their parents they're gorgeous.)
Certainly a word for human/Na'vi beauty could be lexicalized to be required for all people.
Or, if calling a child pretty sets off too many alarms, consider that it's Grace, and that her Na'vi is pretty bad.
But I could imagine that if you really anthropomorphize an animal, you might use "sevin". I know people who would do that with their dogs! If you dress it up in a suit, feed it at the dinner table, and teach it to walk on its hind legs, you'd probably call it "sevin". I could imagine maybe saying that for a pa'li or esp. your ikran. But I expect that would be a very marked exception, and a wild one would be "lor". Unless I'm completely misjudging the distinction.
msg=132396 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 11:19:25 | u=54
Re: info on duals and vocative
Tiger
I think at this point we are trying to assign our own views on what the meaning would be... But the truth is we don't know what the distinction is, except that sevin would not be used to describe a language.
msg=132410 | topic=6165 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 11:36:24 | u=1120
Re: info on duals and vocative
roger
In English we distinguish male from female/neuter; Na'vi might divide things differently. Agreed, it would be nice to get this spelled out.
msg=132221 | topic=6190 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 06:24:28 | u=73
MOVED: "going to"
Prrton
This topic has been moved to [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?board=117]Vocabulary Expansion[/url].
[iurl]http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=6123.0[/iurl]
msg=132230 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 06:48:56 | u=73
luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Prrton
[quote=Paul Frommer]Lu mengeyä kelku na'rìngä luke kxu atxan a fì'u fmawn asìltsan lu nìngay. Nìlaw Nawma Sa'nok lrrtok soli mengar.
ta P.
[kxu = harm; luke = without (ADP-)][/quote]
Lora "without" (luke tìlatem pamä)
msg=132308 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 09:55:56 | u=1120
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
roger
A couple tidbits in a mostly English email:
For "write" let's use pamrel si rather than lì'rel si. The former seems more appropriate for an alphabetic orthography.
I don't have a word for bioluminescent freckle, but I love the idea of using tanhì. Consider it done.
And what's been reported as "tomorrow" in the following, though given the context it might mean "upcoming day":
I'm not going to be much in touch tomorrow, but I hope to be back in communication by Monday, or Tuesday at the latest.
Trrayri livu nìsìlpey aylrrtok atxan ta Eywa awngaru nìwotx.
msg=132366 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 10:52:03 | u=1550
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Taras
Tewti! Oe nìmew pivawm teri fìlì'u a san luke sìk mì hapxì a san Vocabulary Expansion sìk. Irayo nìtxan.
msg=132625 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 15:34:56 | u=2788
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=roger link=topic=6193.msg132308#msg132308 date=1267955756]
And what's been reported as "tomorrow" in the following, though given the context it might mean "upcoming day":
I'm not going to be much in touch tomorrow, but I hope to be back in communication by Monday, or Tuesday at the latest.
Trrayri livu nìsìlpey aylrrtok atxan ta Eywa awngaru nìwotx.
[/quote]
Ah, so the expected symmetry holds! Hopefully it's productive too, so that we can say things like *zìsìtam and *txon'ongay.
And nìsìlpey really intrigues me. We haven't seen an adverbial prefix on a verb before, have we? (excepting the still mysterious nìawnomum)
msg=132639 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 15:44:52 | u=21
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
wm.annis
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=6193.msg132625#msg132625 date=1267976096]And nìsìlpey really intrigues me. We haven't seen an adverbial prefix on a verb before, have we?[/quote]
We have — nìtam.
msg=132674 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 16:08:07 | u=631
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Plumps83
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6193.msg132230#msg132230 date=1267944536]
[quote=Paul Frommer]Lu mengeyä kelku na'rìngä luke kxu atxan a fì'u fmawn asìltsan lu nìngay. Nìlaw Nawma Sa'nok lrrtok soli mengar.[/quote][/quote]
[font=Garamond]Do I understand that correctly?
"Your (two) home of the forest is without great harm that is truely good news. Certainly the Great Mother smiled on you (both)."
nìsìlpey ~ hopefully?
Do we know about stress for luke?
I don't quite know how to translate "harm" into German... is it "Unheil", "Schaden", "Nachteil"???
msg=132691 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 16:20:33 | u=2788
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6193.msg132639#msg132639 date=1267976692]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=6193.msg132625#msg132625 date=1267976096]And nìsìlpey really intrigues me. We haven't seen an adverbial prefix on a verb before, have we?[/quote]
We have — nìtam.
[/quote]
Ah, so we have. So it seems to be universal, then.
msg=132906 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 18:15:49 | u=73
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Prrton
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6193.msg132674#msg132674 date=1267978087]
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6193.msg132230#msg132230 date=1267944536]
[quote=Paul Frommer]Lu mengeyä kelku na'rìngä luke kxu atxan a fì'u fmawn asìltsan lu nìngay. Nìlaw Nawma Sa'nok lrrtok soli mengar.[/quote][/quote]
[font=Garamond]Do I understand that correctly?
"Your (two) home of the forest is without great harm that is truely good news. Certainly the Great Mother smiled on you (both)."
nìsìlpey ~ hopefully?
Do we know about stress for luke?
I don't quite know how to translate "harm" into German... is it "Unheil", "Schaden", "Nachteil"???
[/quote]
Ma Plumps,
I should explain the context a bit to help with the possible semantic range of «kxu». For slightly complex reasons of timing that I won't explain here I felt that I needed to explain to K. Pawl that (our/my husband's and my) 2nd home in the mountains had been reported to us by neighbors late Friday night as "apparently broken into" and that dealing with the situation might mean that I wouldn't be seeing e-mail at all for a couple of days (especially if the wireless internet equipment had been stolen from the house, which I assumed had been the case). Anyway, quite fortunately, the thief(ves)? appear to only have been interested in cash or jewels. Neither type of thing was in the house. Little damage was done compared to what COULD HAVE happened. I reported this good news to K. Pawl via the internet equipment that is still in the house and functioning. He responded...
Lu mengeyä kelku na'rìngä luke kxu atxan a fì'u fmawn asìltsan lu nìngay. Nìlaw Nawma Sa'nok lrrtok soli mengar.
I translate this idiomatically more or less the same way you did as:
It is truly good news that your home in the forest (did not suffer) a lot of «kxu» (harm/damage/physical distress). Clearly, the Great Mother has smiled on you both.
I don't know the stress for «luke». I haven't asked yet.
I'm assuming that «nìsìlpey» is more or less the same semantic range as "hopefully", yes. ("Hopefully, you'll have a good day tomorrow (while I'm out of touch).")
msg=132937 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 18:29:39 | u=631
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Ma Prrton,
thanks for the clear up ... and I'm sorry to hear about the break-in!
So, it's the German "Schaden" - irayo nìmun ;)
msg=133236 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-07 21:09:05 | u=1120
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
roger
Ah, but "awngaru" is "us", and plural, not dual or trial. That's why I wasn't so sure of the reading.
msg=137110 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-10 16:01:23 | u=985
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Nyx
Is this luke made from lu and ke? It kind of reminds me of the ke zene vs zenke thing, with ke being added to the end to give a different version of a negative.. I wonder if this is something that we might see more of ^^
msg=138316 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 17:00:05 | u=132
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Taronyu
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6193.msg132674#msg132674 date=1267978087]
Do we know about stress for luke?
[/quote]
Yes: luke.
msg=138386 | topic=6193 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 18:00:37 | u=631
Re: luke kxu - WITHOUT HARM
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]I feel like Homer Simpson in the Land of Chocolate ;D
Thanks!
msg=135702 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 15:06:11 | u=4
Should have posted this a while ago
zombat
Apologies. Things have been rather crazy with me and posting this keeps slipping my mind:
[quote=Karyu Pawl]
As you know (I hope), I had nothing to do with the "Activist Survival Guide," which was written and published without my knowledge. Many of the so-called Na'vi terms in the body of the book are incorrect/misued. The Na'vi-English Dictionary, however, is actually my work, but it's an early, out-of-date version of the glossary that I never thought was going to be published. Since then I've made some changes, and one word that's been changed is kxener.
At one point the movie people needed some words for Pandoran foods for a certain scene (which didn't make it to the final cut), so I came up with a few terms. It wasn't important to figure out exactly what kinds of foods they were, so I simply glossed the terms as "kind of fruit or vegetable." I think there were about a half-dozen of those. Later, when the scene wasn't used, it seemed a pity to have these perfectly good words with such vague and not-very-useful meanings, so I reassigned all of them. Of the words in the ASG, "kì'ong" (stress on 2nd) now means "slow," and "kxener" (stress on 1st) means . . . smoke.
[/quote]
Kì'ong = Slow
Kxener = Smoke
msg=135740 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 15:40:44 | u=5059
Re: Should have posted this a while ago
KalaKuival
aah! Great news! Now i can actually use these words in real life! Thanks for posting:)
msg=135750 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 15:48:34 | u=1550
Re: Should have posted this a while ago
Taras
Nang! Set oe ìyomum. Irayo ;)
msg=135848 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 17:08:08 | u=1318
Re: Should have posted this a while ago
HTML_Earth
Prrkxentrrkrr: Day time smoke pleasure 8)
msg=135898 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 17:58:35 | u=0
Re: Should have posted this a while ago
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=6349.msg135848#msg135848 date=1268154488]
Prrkxentrrkrr: Day time smoke pleasure :o
[/quote]
Mid-day/afternoon smoke break, what?
msg=135925 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-09 18:26:21 | u=1318
Re: Should have posted this a while ago
HTML_Earth
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6349.msg135898#msg135898 date=1268157515]
[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=6349.msg135848#msg135848 date=1268154488]
Prrkxentrrkrr: Day time smoke pleasure :o
[/quote]
Mid-day/afternoon smoke break, what?
[/quote]
I think I picked the wrong smiley...
msg=136559 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-10 05:43:35 | u=2541
Re: Should have posted this a while ago
Lrrtoksì nìhawng
Txantsan! Now I can quit saying ke nìwin!
But now I've lost my placeholder words for fruit.
msg=136778 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-10 10:15:43 | u=631
Re: Should have posted this a while ago
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing. :)
Does that make nìk'ong = slowly (without the ì) attested as well?
I'm assuming since kxener didn't appear in the verb list but just for clarification, it's the noun "the smoke", kefyak?
msg=138314 | topic=6349 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 16:58:38 | u=132
Re: Should have posted this a while ago
Taronyu
Technically:
kxener
kì'ong
:)
msg=137777 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 03:00:03 | u=1120
all adpositions
roger
Paul has now released the full set of adpositions. Most of them you already know, but there are several new ones. We now also know which cause lenition and which don't.
Those not causing lenition are:
äo \
msg=137790 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 03:12:46 | u=54
Re: all adpositions
Tiger
Tewti! Set tsun awnga pivlltxe tsenge a fì'uro tok!
Wow! Now we can say where we are at!
msg=137792 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 03:18:37 | u=21
Re: all adpositions
wm.annis
[quote author=roger link=topic=6430.msg137777#msg137777 date=1268276403]
ro \
msg=137793 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 03:23:52 | u=1627
Re: all adpositions
Kawazoe
EPIC WOOT'NES!
I can't wait to see all of those added to Taronyu's dictionary!
msg=137984 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 10:14:05 | u=132
Re: all adpositions
Taronyu
[quote author=Kawazoe link=topic=6430.msg137793#msg137793 date=1268277832]
I can't wait to see all of those added to Taronyu's dictionary!
[/quote]
Done.
msg=138012 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 10:57:45 | u=631
Re: all adpositions
Plumps83
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6430.msg137792#msg137792 date=1268277517]
[quote author=roger link=topic=6430.msg137777#msg137777 date=1268276403]
ro \
msg=138020 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 11:19:23 | u=132
Re: all adpositions
Taronyu
Fäpa is one of the new words, yes.
msg=138023 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 11:23:46 | u=1120
Re: all adpositions
roger
Note in the NYT article yesterday nemfa was explained as ne mì+fa. I believe that fa is the pa in fäpa.
And the f in fkip looks like it may be the fä.
msg=138285 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 16:37:22 | u=1550
Re: all adpositions
Taras
Tewti! Irayo nìtxan seiyi oe. Mipa aylì'u frakrr oeru prrte' leiu :)
msg=138951 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:15:05 | u=0
Re: all adpositions
Swoka Swizaw
Doesn't ftu lenit? In Taronyu's dictionary, it does.
msg=138956 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:17:36 | u=1120
Re: all adpositions
roger
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6430.msg138951#msg138951 date=1268352905]
Doesn't ftu lenit? In Taronyu's dictionary, it does.
[/quote]
I think we assumed it does because of the behaviour of tsaw --> sat. But that's just irregular, and our guess was wrong. Either that or Frommer made an error here, but he sorted the adp. by whether they lenit or not, so I'd expect him to catch an oversight like that. I'll ask.
msg=138964 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:24:31 | u=2934
Re: all adpositions
fnua atxkxe
I've been wanting a list like this for a while. Will be very useful. Oe lu lefpom :D
At the top it says "the full set adpositions". Will this be all of them or might we get more in the future?
msg=138966 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:26:46 | u=0
Re: all adpositions
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=roger link=topic=6430.msg138956#msg138956 date=1268353056]
I think we assumed it does because of the behaviour of tsaw --> sat. But that's just irregular, and our guess was wrong. Either that or Frommer made an error here, but he sorted the adp. by whether they lenit or not, so I'd expect him to catch an oversight like that. I'll ask.
[/quote]
Good. But, why do so few lenit? Is there a pattern between what does?
msg=138973 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:31:38 | u=1120
Re: all adpositions
roger
[quote author=fnua atxkxe link=topic=6430.msg138964#msg138964 date=1268353471]
At the top it says "the full set adpositions". Will this be all of them or might we get more in the future?
[/quote]
That's all that Frommer's come up with so far. There are suggestions for more we might present to him, but I don't know what he'll do with them.
msg=138979 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:37:30 | u=2934
Re: all adpositions
fnua atxkxe
Irayo, oe tsap'alute, haven't kept up with much of the new stuff recently as I have been busy. That's why I find this list so useful. Makes it easy to memorize.
msg=138981 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:37:59 | u=1120
Re: all adpositions
roger
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6430.msg138966#msg138966 date=1268353606]
Good. But, why do so few lenit? Is there a pattern between what does?
[/quote]
I assume it's just a relic of historical change. Often "core" forms are irregular, so we might expect only basic/highly frequent preps to lenit. (And note that a derivative of a leniting adp. does not itself lenit.) Also, even among the most common adp, there may once have been some conditioning factor that's since been lost, so that only some of them caused the change.
Look at case in English: we only have an oblique in personal pronouns, no longer in nouns or demonstrative PNs, and even among the personal PNs not in "you" or "it".
msg=139400 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 08:47:45 | u=1120
Re: all adpositions
roger
updating the posting w two temporal adverbs derived from these: mawkrr "after, afterwards"; srekrr "before" (& presumably "beforehand")
msg=139408 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 08:54:27 | u=54
Re: all adpositions
Tiger
I presume srekrr (Interesting it's not srehrr) would be used like...
Oe tsakem soli srekrr
I've done that before
msg=139426 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 09:22:30 | u=1120
Re: all adpositions
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6430.msg139408#msg139408 date=1268384067]
I presume srekrr (Interesting it's not srehrr) would be used like...
Oe tsakem soli srekrr
I've done that before
[/quote]
Good catch. That might be a typo or an oversight: I certainly would expect srehrr, now that you've pointed it out.
I can only guess, but I think your e.g. is probly correct.
msg=139518 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 11:26:49 | u=1751
Re: all adpositions
blueme
Can someone enlighten me please as to the precise meaning of ka and kxamlä?
Is ka used in a sense of "walk across the room" or "live across the street?"
Is kxämla "I enter, I walk across, and I come out on the other side" or rather "[desc=i.e. I start and finish inside the place]walk across the room[/desc]?" Maybe both? Also, how literal is the through the middle part?
msg=139527 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 11:37:19 | u=1120
Re: all adpositions
roger
Don't know. Have asked.
If ka is locative rather than lative, maybe it can be compounded for "on the other bank/shore/side".
msg=139528 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 11:37:39 | u=54
Re: all adpositions
Tiger
Kä yey kxamlä perhaps? (Go straight through the middle)
Not sure on ka, I've been trying to figure that one out as well. But more head scratching to me is how "Across truth" becomes "Valid".
msg=139533 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 11:45:30 | u=1751
Re: all adpositions
blueme
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6430.msg139528#msg139528 date=1268393859]
Not sure on ka, I've been trying to figure that one out as well. But more head scratching to me is how "Across truth" becomes "Valid".[/quote]
You reach a valid conclusion by going across truth, maybe?
msg=141775 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 22:48:34 | u=3552
Re: all adpositions
tigermind
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6430.msg139533#msg139533 date=1268394330]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6430.msg139528#msg139528 date=1268393859]
Not sure on ka, I've been trying to figure that one out as well. But more head scratching to me is how "Across truth" becomes "Valid".[/quote]
You reach a valid conclusion by going across truth, maybe?
[/quote]
I thought kangay came from kan (v., aim) + ngay (adj., true).
msg=143948 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:30:58 | u=401
Re: all adpositions
Harìghawnu
Sorry for being a skxawng, but could someone please explain "fkip" to me. I don't understand "up among" ... and have problems to find it in my dictionaries.
Google also deliveres just sentences like "Drug use up among new jail inmates". But this is more "something went up" and it does it "among certain people". I don't think, that "fkip" can be used this way. Could someone please so kind, to explain "up among" to a non-English speaker?
msg=143952 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:34:07 | u=21
Re: all adpositions
wm.annis
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6430.msg143948#msg143948 date=1268656258]I don't understand "up among" ... and have problems to find it in my dictionaries. [/quote]
They fly up among the clounds.
They run up among the branches. (Way up among the branches of Hometree).
msg=143955 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:37:59 | u=401
Re: all adpositions
Harìghawnu
Hm. So it's an upward movement performed among objects (like branches/clouds/...)?
msg=143966 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:47:06 | u=21
Re: all adpositions
wm.annis
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6430.msg143955#msg143955 date=1268656679]Hm. So it's an upward movement performed among objects (like branches/clouds/...)?[/quote]
Upward location among some objects, I think, but we might want to get confirmation on that.
msg=143974 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:53:53 | u=401
Re: all adpositions
Harìghawnu
[quote]Upward location among some objects, [/quote]
Ah, I see.
Upward location among objects would be "oben in den Wolken/Zweigen" = "up in the clouds/branches" in German;
upward movement among objects would be "nach oben in die Wolken/Zweige" = "up into the clouds/branches"
So in combination with "among" both are quite *exotic* concepts to me. ;D
msg=144857 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:10:52 | u=1120
Re: all adpositions
roger
I expect that "up into" would be ??nefkip.
msg=155198 | topic=6430 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 11:29:58 | u=1751
Re: all adpositions
blueme
[quote author=roger link=topic=6430.msg144857#msg144857 date=1268687452]
I expect that "up into" would be ??nefkip.
[/quote]
Do we know if that lative exists, or is it maybe entailed in fkip (i.e. so that it can be both locative and lative but not [desc=tafkip]ablative[/desc]?) What about the "[desc=äo, io, eo, uo]basic[/desc]" locative adps., can/should we combine them with ab/lative ones or can they already express movement to and from (as in English?)
msg=137855 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 05:27:46 | u=1627
Frommerian words from NYTimes
Kawazoe
I'm not sure the second one is going to be used very often but I'll certainly use the first one a lot!
Computer -> eltu lefngap
Lawers -> pängkxoyu lekoren
Thank's Karyu Pawl!
Source: [url=http://schott.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/questions-answered-invented-languages/]http://schott.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/questions-answered-invented-languages/[/url]
PS: He mentioned learnnavi.org in there :D
msg=138300 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-11 16:51:33 | u=132
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
Taronyu
The first is an official word, actually. Frommer liked prrton's suggested so much he made it canon.
msg=138941 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:06:56 | u=0
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
Swoka Swizaw
Wouldn't it be eltu alefngap?
msg=138945 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:08:25 | u=54
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
Tiger
The a can be left off when using le on the following word. So any of these three would mean the same thing...
eltu lefngap
eltu alefngap
lefngapa eltu
msg=138961 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:21:45 | u=0
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6442.msg138945#msg138945 date=1268352505]
The a can be left off when using le on the following word. So any of these three would mean the same thing...
eltu lefngap
eltu alefngap
lefngapa eltu
[/quote]
Tewti. Oel 'uti nolumeie.
msg=155220 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:06:19 | u=1975
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
Ean Tirea
I also noticed the word for stomach in there: ngäng. i didnt see this in the dictionary so i figured id post it here after finding it in the article.
msg=155234 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:29:16 | u=631
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Good catch ... but is that a noun or a verb? Not very clear on that...
msg=155244 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:47:00 | u=1975
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
Ean Tirea
I'm pretty sure it is the noun for the stomach, as "to stomach something" seems idiomatic to me? that is, it could have been more accurately defined as something other than stomach if it were a verb. IMO of course.
msg=155267 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 13:23:34 | u=631
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Sounds reasonable to me ;)
msg=155318 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:22:41 | u=1120
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
roger
glossed "N".
Not clear if it's the organ or the belly, but presumably the former.
All new words such as this should be included at WB; please let me know if I've missed any.
msg=155343 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:49:29 | u=2088
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
txon ite
Getting the word for lawyer is very exciting to me! New business cards here i come!
msg=155351 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:55:57 | u=1120
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
roger
[quote author=Txonyä'ite link=topic=6442.msg155343#msg155343 date=1269355769]
Getting the word for lawyer is very exciting to me! New business cards here i come!
[/quote]
"Lawyer" was a proposal to Frommer, but AFAIK not accepted by him, at least not officially for now.
msg=155376 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 15:12:56 | u=430
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
TehMightyPirate
Well, it does kind of seem to fit for now. I mean "chatter of rules", can't get much better than that.
msg=155758 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:09:05 | u=2088
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
txon ite
Well... i guess I can hold off on the Na'vi business cards for a little while....
msg=155761 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:10:46 | u=54
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
Tiger
[quote author=roger link=topic=6442.msg155318#msg155318 date=1269354161]
glossed "N".
Not clear if it's the organ or the belly, but presumably the former.
All new words such as this should be included at WB; please let me know if I've missed any.
[/quote]I actually think it's the latter... As in, the opposite of "back" txal.
msg=155792 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:31:06 | u=4754
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
`Eylan Ayfalulukanä
[quote author=Txonyä'ite link=topic=6442.msg155343#msg155343 date=1269355769]
Getting the word for lawyer is very exciting to me! New business cards here i come!
[/quote]
Oh, please don't tell me you are one of those! We are going to have to just feed you to a palulukan ala 'Jurassic Park' ;)
msg=155803 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:34:49 | u=2088
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
txon ite
Don't worry, I am a second year law student so still 2 more semesters. I won't be a bad one though, do you know how hard it is to catch an ambulance when you are in heels? ;D
msg=156460 | topic=6442 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 22:04:23 | u=134
Re: Frommerian words from NYTimes
vidvamp01
[quote author=Txonyä'ite link=topic=6442.msg155803#msg155803 date=1269372889]
Don't worry, I am a second year law student so still 2 more semesters. I won't be a bad one though, do you know how hard it is to catch an ambulance when you are in heels? ;D
[/quote]
LOLZ!
msg=138940 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:06:05 | u=1120
minor updates / anticipated confirmations
roger
Several things we suspected are now confirmed.
As Taronyu noted, 'u is a noun "thing". It may be concrete or abstract: an object, a fact, an idea, etc. Assuming glottal stop is a consonant like any other, we'd expect a short plural u. I've asked Paul if that's really the case, but even if it's a likely source of confusion for English speakers, it wouldn't be a problem for speakers of languages which have a glottal stop, like Arabic or Hawaiian--or Na'vi?
Pe can combine with nouns as either a prefix (leniting) or as a suffix. That is, like tsa-, it's not restricted to the combinations we've been given. So for example there's lì’upe / pelì’u "what (word, utterance)". (One of the few Paul thought important enough to spell out - or maybe it occurs in the script? Note the irregular stress: It seems that the stress needs to be adjacent to the pe affix; I'll try to come back to this point.) I assume that you'd use that for "what" in "what did you say?", just as Neytiri uses kempe si nga for "what are you doing?" in the film. In other words, there is no single word "what?" in Na'vi.
Fratseng is "everywhere", and tsafya is "that way, like that", as expected. We can probably fill in the remaining blank cells in the table at Wikibooks in our own notes, but IMO best to leave the book itself alone unless they're confirmed.
We have frato in our old NYT example, and it's now confirmed as "than all", the superlative (most, -est) equivalent of to.
And we finally have a partial paradigm for "that, it". It's a bit irregular: intrans/absolutive tsaw [sic], erg tsal, acc tsat, plus irregular sat only after (non-leniting) ftu, as the SG says. We still don't have the genitive or dative, and I don't know if adpositions attach to tsaw or to the short form tsa-. I've asked Paul if he can clarify.
The ordinal suffix -ve in 'awve "first" is as expected found on other numbers. However, it's irregular: in some cases it suffixes to the long form, in some cases the short form:
Long form: pxeyve "third", volve "eighth"
Short form: muve "second", tsìve "fourth", puve "sixth", kive "seventh"
Only form: 'awve "first", mrrve "fifth"
Higher numbers are predictable from these: short vomuve "tenth" (octal 12th) and vosìve "twelfth" (octal 14th), but long vopeyve "eleventh" (octal 13th).
(In the interests of completeness, the rest of the provided forms are volawve, vomrrve, vofuve, vohive, mevolve, mevolawve.)
ADDENDUM
No, *u "things" would be too likely to cause confusion, even among the Na'vi. In practice, only the long plural ayu is used.
'Awlie is "once". Note that, unusually for a suffix, the stress is on the li. I deduce from that that ??lie is actually a count noun or adverb "time(s)", contrasting with non-count krr "time (duration)", and would predict that ??mulie is "twice", but neither are attested.
msg=138950 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:13:07 | u=54
Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations
Tiger
[quote author=roger link=topic=6487.msg138940#msg138940 date=1268352365]
And we finally have a partial paradigm for "that, it". It's a bit irregular: intrans/absolutive tsaw [sic], erg tsal, acc tsat, plus irregular sat only after (non-leniting) ftu, as the SG says. We still don't have the genitive or dative, and I don't know if adpositions attach to tsaw or to the short form tsa-. I've asked Paul if he can clarify.
[/quote]Err, ftu is ADP+ so it is leniting... (It's still irregular seeing as how it would otherwise be the accusitive form of that.)
msg=138954 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 00:16:05 | u=1120
Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6487.msg138950#msg138950 date=1268352787]
Err, ftu is ADP+ so it is leniting... (It's still irregular seeing as how it would otherwise be the accusitive form of that.)
[/quote]
No, it's not, not according to Frommer: "ADP-". We probably figured it was because of sat in the SG.
msg=139428 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 09:23:26 | u=1120
Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations
roger
Yes, F confirms that this was not an oversight or typo. Just irregular.
msg=139487 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 10:43:09 | u=54
Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations
Tiger
Interesting indeed.
msg=139663 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 14:50:56 | u=2788
Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=roger link=topic=6487.msg138940#msg138940 date=1268352365]
And we finally have a partial paradigm for "that, it". It's a bit irregular: intrans/absolutive tsaw [sic], erg tsal, acc tsat, plus irregular sat only after (non-leniting) ftu, as the SG says. We still don't have the genitive or dative, and I don't know if adpositions attach to tsaw or to the short form tsa-. I've asked Paul if he can clarify.
[/quote]
Judging from [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combined-answers-1-(feb-16)/]the earlier snippet[/url], tsa- is the way to go with enclitics:
[quote=Karyu Pawl]For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.[/quote]
Also, that wording kind of suggests that he has since changed his mind about the basic form, does it not...?
msg=140186 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 20:01:11 | u=1120
Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations
roger
No, sorry, tsaw is a contraction of tsa'u.
[quote author=Frommer]
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.
[/quote]
So, is tsane a derivation of tsa, or a further contraction of tsawne? If the former, what's the diff tween tsa and tsaw? I don't know.
msg=140887 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 08:56:26 | u=1225
Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations
neotrekkerz
[quote]We have frato in our old NYT example, and it's now confirmed as "than all", the superlative (most, -est) equivalent of to.[/quote]
So regarding use, the following seems immediate:
Fìutral frato tsawl lu This tree is the tallest
But what if you had the following: the largest, most beautiful tree
1. Do you need only 1 frato? frato tsawla eana utral alor (frato tsawla utral alor seems to me to be the tallest beautiful tree)
2. What if you use (one of) the adjective(s) on the right side of the noun? frato tsawla utral alor (a)frato or frato tsawla utral frato alor
msg=141654 | topic=6487 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 21:29:52 | u=1120
Re: minor updates / anticipated confirmations
roger
I would imagine that you need both superlative adj. on the same side as frato, maybe linked with sì.
msg=139677 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 15:13:01 | u=430
Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
TehMightyPirate
In an email to me from Frommer regarding the GMA stuff I got this little tid-bit:
[quote=Frommer]New oe mengaru piveng futa tìkangkemìri atxantsan mengeyä fpi "Trr Lefpom ma Amerika" oeru teya soli nìtxan.
Furia nì'Ìnglìsì pamrel sivi [pamrel si = 'write'], oeru txoa livu. Ke lu oer set krr atxan, ulte ke new kxeyey sivi.[/quote]
msg=139687 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 15:22:39 | u=2788
Re: Verb for "write"
Lance R. Casey
Already revealed [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/luke-kxu-without-harm/msg132308/#msg132308]here[/url], but there's something else to note: it is now certain that peng is (or can be) transitive.
msg=139706 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 15:37:03 | u=1550
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Taras
Oel frakrr fpamìl futa san peng sìk lu *transitive* :) Kxawm fì'ut oel tslolam ta tìralpeng leRuski :)
msg=175396 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 22:01:19 | u=54
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Tiger
Yay necropost!
So, it occurred to me...
Na'vi only has direct quotes....
Perhaps I don't understand the distinction, but wouldn't "New oe mengaru piveng futa ..." be an indirect quote? Sure, it's not REALLY a quote because it's in the first person, but if you replaced oe with po, it would be an indirect quote (i think).
New po mengaru piveng futa tìkangkemìri atxantsan mengeyä fpi "Trr Lefpom ma Amerika" oeru teya soli nìtxan.
So is "oe" allowed with a transitive "peng" there but "po" not?
msg=175433 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 22:48:38 | u=631
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Something else is interesting... It concerns the last part of the message
»… ulte ke new kxeyey sivi.«
And I don’t want to make a mistake. Is si here a verb of its own? I thought it would be an auxilary only.
Or would you tranlate this as I don’t want to err?
msg=175449 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:05:30 | u=54
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Tiger
If you were taking it as a verb on it's own, then "kxeyey" would be the subject and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, let alone mean what you translated it as. It is fulfilling its role as an auxiliary verb there based off kxeyey.
msg=175481 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:54:18 | u=1225
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
neotrekkerz
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6523.msg175396#msg175396 date=1270591279]
Yay necropost!
So, it occurred to me...
Na'vi only has direct quotes....
Perhaps I don't understand the distinction, but wouldn't "New oe mengaru piveng futa ..." be an indirect quote? Sure, it's not REALLY a quote because it's in the first person, but if you replaced oe with po, it would be an indirect quote (i think).
New po mengaru piveng futa tìkangkemìri atxantsan mengeyä fpi "Trr Lefpom ma Amerika" oeru teya soli nìtxan.
So is "oe" allowed with a transitive "peng" there but "po" not?
[/quote]
The way I'm reading it, it comes across to me as a statement: "I want to tell you that regarding your excellent work for Good Morning America, I was very happy" or "I want to tell you I was very happy about the excellent work you did regarding the GMA project."
Hence you could use po with it just the same and it would translate then as "He wants to tell..."
msg=175482 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 23:59:00 | u=54
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Tiger
It's a statement, sure, but it also seems to me like it's an indirect quote. You could say it equally as 'He wants to tell you, "..."'.
If you replaced "Tell you" with "say", is it still a "statement" and not an "indirect quote"? What about if you change "wants to" into "will" as in "He will say"... If it's not an indirect quote, when does it become one?
msg=175489 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:20:49 | u=1225
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
neotrekkerz
I see what your saying. Hmm, personally for Frommer's sentence I would consider it just a statement.
If you changed "wants to" into "will" it sounds more to me like an indirect quote
"will say" again sounds like an indirect quote
Now that I'm thinking about it, isn't that why we have san...sìk? For direct quotes only? To me san x sìk seems like your setting whatever x is in stone. If you are unsure of what was exactly said, or are just paraphrasing, wouldn't you say (in both English and Na'vi) the thing as a statement?
He said "you're a skxawng" means he literally said that you're a skxawng.
He said you're a moron means he said something like (or something which indicated to the speaker) that you're a moron.
Maybe ask about the possible distinction(s) in the next combining our efforts II email to Frommer? It's definitely an interesting point.
msg=175491 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:26:39 | u=54
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Tiger
Right, but Frommer has said that only direct speech is allowed.
[quote=Paul Frommer]
Suppose the sentence is, "Eytukan said he would go, but I don't believe him."
Everything converts to direct speech, so it would be:
Poltxe Eytukan san oe kayä sìk, slä oel pot ke spaw.
[quote=roger]And it looks like only direct speech is allowed?[/quote]
Right
[/quote]
msg=175499 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:38:13 | u=1225
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
neotrekkerz
Perhaps he means that if you have san...sìk it's some type of relayed spoken quote (direct or indirect) and no san...sìk means it must be a statement?
Frommer's sentence makes a bit more sense to me this way if I translate peng as "inform"
msg=175506 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 00:50:14 | u=54
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Tiger
The fact that he took an indirect quote and said about it "Everything converts to direct speech" seems to imply it is not just if san...sìk is used, but the nature of how things are said.
msg=175525 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 02:01:34 | u=1225
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
neotrekkerz
I agree, that's why I like translating it as "inform" rather than "say" or "tell."
"I want to inform you of the following fact: your excellent work on the GMA project fills me with joy."
msg=175549 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 03:02:23 | u=54
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Tiger
But you're taking some pretty heavy liberties with the translation there. How you translate it doesn't change what the Na'vi says.
To be honest, I was hoping someone with some more linguistic knowledge than me might be able to cite something telling me my idea of what direct vs indirect speech was is all wrong and giving some new insight into linguistics. I'd hate to add it to the list of questions for Frommer and have it be something stupid because it's something that any linguist would be able to answer.
msg=175586 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 05:16:17 | u=631
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Isn't it also possible that since he is not actually saying it that the quote … unquote particles are not in use here? In comparison to Eytukan who actually said at one point "no dreamwalker shall be allowed to enter hometree". But since Frommer expresses a fictitious conversation and his words are not really uttered that san x sìk is not needed.
Then again, it's always possible that he just missed it. As he wrote at other instances, it's totally possible that he makes mistakes. And the second sentence says that he's in a hurry which is the reason he'll write in English rather than Na'vi to avoid mistakes...
msg=175592 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 05:49:01 | u=54
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Tiger
That's a good point about him doing it quickly. I once asked him about people sending him email in Na'vi, how well he can understand it. As a footnote to the answer, he commented "Oel tel 'upxaret leNa'vi a krr, new oe nìtengfya pamrel sivi nì'eyng. Slä krr a nìNa'vi pamrel si oe, new oel futa upxare oeyä luke keyey livu nìwotx, fte eyawra sìkenongit tivìng suteru." (And ironically, he sent me an email with a correction to that email a short while later.)
Possibly also relevant to this discussion is this little tidbit.
[quote=Paul Frommer]Srake tsun oe fayupxaret tslivam nìftue? Tse . . . zene pivlltxe san pxìm tsafya lu sìk.[/quote]
Can I understand these messages easily? Well... I must say "Often that way"
I bring that up because it's a similar construct to what I mentioned earlier... A hypothetical dialog hanging off a speech word with a modal verb involved. And it's something we'd say as an indirect quote (Though in first person it doesn't make a huge difference) in English, but he says it with a direct quote there in Na'vi.
msg=175630 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 07:23:12 | u=1225
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
neotrekkerz
[quote]To be honest, I was hoping someone with some more linguistic knowledge than me might be able to cite something telling me my idea of what direct vs indirect speech was is all wrong and giving some new insight into linguistics.[/quote]
Me too, I'm really curious about that sentence now.
msg=175699 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 10:34:26 | u=631
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Plumps83
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6523.msg175592#msg175592 date=1270619341]
That's a good point about him doing it quickly. I once asked him about people sending him email in Na'vi, how well he can understand it. As a footnote to the answer, he commented "Oel tel 'upxaret leNa'vi a krr, new oe nìtengfya pamrel sivi nì'eyng. Slä krr a nìNa'vi pamrel si oe, new oel futa upxare oeyä luke keyey livu nìwotx, fte eyawra sìkenongit tivìng suteru." (And ironically, he sent me an email with a correction to that email a short while later.)[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Interesting - and is that which you give us here the corrected version? Or did that refer to another part of the mail?
I'm curious about the use of nì'eyng here - "I want to write answer-ly the same way" ???
NB: Otherwise that sentence could be added to the wiki canon page of sample sentences. I was asked recently whether there was such an attempt/project. The idea behind it was to see how Frommer uses certain words and to construct some kind of a paradigm for learners who rather go along the lines of existing sentences and change a word here and there before they are confident enough to build their own sentences.
msg=175722 | topic=6523 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 11:04:42 | u=54
Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
Tiger
Nì'eyng is actually in the dictionary. The translation would be something like "When I receive a message in Na'vi, I want to write the same way in response." The correction was just a slight semantic correction to something else in the email, nothing grammatical or such. (Specifically it was using 'u where the more specific kem worked better.)
As far as sample sentences, I'm actually working on a website (very slowly) with the intent of cataloging example usage of words, both Frommerian or otherwise. The main idea I have is to include pronunciation, but the core concept is similar to what EanaEltu does, except more correct and saving sentences with references to used words. So you can look up a word and then ask for sample sentences which use it, including derived and inflected forms. But it will probably be awhile until I am at that stage.
msg=140423 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:22:19 | u=1120
spatial words
roger
There is a noun pa'o "side". It looks like this means spatial "side" as in "which side?", "left side", etc, not as in anatomical flank/ribs, but that is not clear. Anyway, it appears to form several spatial derivations:
fäpa "top" N
kllpa "bottom" N
mìfa (either stress) "inside" N, ADV
wrrpa "outside" N, ADV
I'm guessing that the fä in fäpa is the f in the adposition fkip "up among". It's also found in the adverb
nefä "up" (direction) ADV
to go with our existing nekll "down".
Then from (I presume) hapxì "part" and our andative/venitive? prefixes/serial verbs kä, za, we get:
zapxì "front" (front part or section) N
käpxì "rear" (rear part or section) N
Interesting that coming is in front and going is in back.
We've got another new kä derivative,
käsatseng "out there" ADV
Don't know if that's dissimilation from the other ts or what. It wouldn't seem to be lenition after kä, since there's no lenition in käpxì (unless lenition would've applied to kähapxì, with subsequent contraction??)
I wonder if we get a corresponding ??zafìtseng "in here"?
PS. Note also long-known ta’em "from above". I wonder if there's a ??ne'em "to above" that's distinct from nefä "upwards", like tswayon nefä "fly upwards, ascend" vs. ??tswayon ne'em toruk "fly above the leonopteryx".
msg=140429 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:26:12 | u=54
Re: spatial words
Tiger
Tsaw nìhawng käsatseng lu...
(Yay, translating idioms literally! :D)
Maybe the sa in käsatseng is plural, since out there is a big thing with many places.
msg=140434 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:28:25 | u=0
Re: spatial words
Swoka Swizaw
These updates are just wonderful. Thanks.
msg=140442 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:31:20 | u=1120
Re: spatial words
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6585.msg140429#msg140429 date=1268429172]
Maybe the sa in käsatseng is plural, since out there is a big thing with many places.
[/quote]
Nice thought! I've been asking for plurals of our interrogatives & demonstratives, but haven't gotten an answer yet.
msg=140447 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 21:33:19 | u=1550
Re: spatial words
Taras
Irayo. Oeru frakrr prrte' lu fwa mipa aylì'ut tse'a oel ::) Set oe zene tslivam tsayut nìwotx :)
msg=156236 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 20:37:20 | u=132
Re: spatial words
Taronyu
Did you ask whether mìfa was the noun and mìfa was the adverb? Seems like a valid question, given the way Frommer gave them to us.
msg=156309 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:01:40 | u=1225
Re: spatial words
neotrekkerz
[quote] zapxì "front" (front part or section) N
käpxì "rear" (rear part or section) N
Interesting that coming is in front and going is in back. [/quote]
I've been thinking for a while now about za when used as a prefix. It seems to indicate motion/actions towards the body:
'ärìp to move
za'ärìp to pull (move towards the body)
munge to take
zamunge to bring (to take towards the body)
This is a little iffy, but I was taught in English that you "take it to someone else, but bring it to me."
This makes zapxì seem very natural to me, as I think of my body in terms of the front and not the back.
msg=156316 | topic=6585 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:03:36 | u=1120
Re: spatial words
roger
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=6585.msg156236#msg156236 date=1269463040]
Did you ask whether mìfa was the noun and mìfa was the adverb? Seems like a valid question, given the way Frommer gave them to us.
[/quote]
Didn't ask.
Wrrpa is also given an "N, ADV". I assume mìpa is the same, just w variable stress as several other words are. Otherwise I presume one would be listed under N and one under ADV.
msg=140538 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-12 22:33:54 | u=54
Many Earths....
Tiger
Something that has been bugging me for awhile is the phonology of 'Rrta... Specifically, it can't validly lenit under the rules of Na'vi phonology. So I emailed Frommer with my question.
The short answer is that words that begin with 'rr or 'll don't lenit. So many Earths would be ay'Rrta with no short plural. At Earth would be ro 'Rrta, etc.
The impression I got was that he wasn't 100% happy with this as an answer, but it's not without precedent in other languages. At this point it seems like he doesn't think he's likely to go the alternate route and relax the phonology rules on liquids (Since ayRrta and ro Rrta are perfectly easy to pronounce).
msg=140870 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 08:27:20 | u=1225
Re: Many Earths....
neotrekkerz
Interesting, been wondering about other lenition exceptions ever since ayu.
msg=140875 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 08:32:19 | u=54
Re: Many Earths....
Tiger
Do we have an actual answer on ayu? Been wondering that myself... As well as how plurals and demonstrative prefixes get combined. I've seen several different combinations.
msg=140891 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 09:01:46 | u=1225
Re: Many Earths....
neotrekkerz
I saw this [quote]No, *u "things" would be too likely to cause confusion, even among the Na'vi. In practice, only the long plural ayu is used.[/quote]
from [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/msg138940/#msg138940]here[/url]
msg=140895 | topic=6590 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 09:14:56 | u=54
Re: Many Earths....
Tiger
Ohhhh, I missed the update to the original message.
msg=140685 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 00:41:28 | u=21
A new participle infix: ‹awn›
wm.annis
In an email discussion about vocabulary matters, Karyu Pawl said this of someone's words — Aylì’u apawnlltxe nìltsan!. It took me a few seconds to realize what I was seeing. Then I asked for confirmation. Was there really an object adjective (aka passive participle) infix?
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]-us- and -awn- are parallel infixes--active and passive participles respectively.
ioang apuslltxe
lì'fya apawnlltxe[/quote]
msg=140691 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 00:48:13 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
Txantsan! Leru tsaw nawnew!
(Yeah I know it's a bit awkward of a sentence because it's contrived to use awn.)
msg=140697 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 00:51:27 | u=631
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Amazing news! Thanks for sharing!
So, that means "spoken words" ?
msg=140704 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 01:01:28 | u=1550
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Taras
Irayo nìtxan! Set oe pìyeng ayeylanur oeyä nìwotx ::)
Rutxe nari si: nì+<awn>+omum ::) Awngal omum fìlì'ut ;)
msg=140723 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 01:25:07 | u=1120
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
roger
So it would seem that Na'vi has passive participles, but not passive clauses of the "X was said by Y" variety. Paul has said he's avoided that kind of construction, and AFAIK there is no word for the "by" that we would need to create it. Like the lack of /b d g/, this seems to be a point that we were meant to work around.
msg=140729 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 01:34:28 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
Passive voice he said would be based on word order emphasis...
Eg. Frapol ayerikti teraron - Everyone hunts hexapods
Ayerikit frapol teraron - Hexapods are hunted by everyone
Ayerikit teraron frapol - Hexapods are hunted by
EVERYONEBut working around the lack of <awn> is a lot more cumbersome...
Ayerik atawnaron - Hunted hexapods
Ayerik a fot fkol teraron - Hexapods that are hunted
msg=140739 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 01:57:17 | u=1120
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
roger
Do you know that it's "ayerik", or are you making that assumption? That's s.t. I've been wondering about.
msg=140742 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 02:08:53 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
It's an assumption, but on the grand scale of assumptions, it seems like a reasonably safe one to make. However knowing is always nicer than assuming.
msg=140794 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 04:20:52 | u=0
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Swoka Swizaw
Finally, an infix with "n." I was wondering if he'd use that.
msg=141071 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 13:30:44 | u=2788
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=6601.msg140704#msg140704 date=1268442088]
Rutxe nari si: nì+<awn>+omum ::) Awngal omum fìlì'ut ;)
[/quote]
Tewti! Tsalì'u ahiyìk law lam set. Nga eltu sarmatsi nìltsan! :)
msg=141787 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 22:53:34 | u=3552
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
tigermind
Huzzah! I have more translations to fix!
Edit: I just had a thought: What does it mean if we stick this infix inside of an intransitive verb? Or would it be meaningless? Like, does *r<awn>ey mean anything?
msg=142109 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 06:57:50 | u=984
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
okrìsti
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6601.msg141787#msg141787 date=1268520814]
Edit: I just had a thought: What does it mean if we stick this infix inside of an intransitive verb? Or would it be meaningless? Like, does *r<awn>ey mean anything?
[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]I think so. I have made up these: aysìpawnlltxe or aysìpawneng :)
msg=142110 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 07:04:21 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
I think your melì'u just broke my eltu.
msg=142116 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 07:22:37 | u=1120
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
roger
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6601.msg141787#msg141787 date=1268520814]
Huzzah! I have more translations to fix!
Edit: I just had a thought: What does it mean if we stick this infix inside of an intransitive verb? Or would it be meaningless? Like, does *r<awn>ey mean anything?
[/quote]
The only way it could mean anything was if it transitivized the verb, "my life was lived well" etc. English is pretty flexible that way, but don't know about Na'vi
msg=143046 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 19:54:47 | u=3552
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
tigermind
[quote author=roger link=topic=6601.msg142116#msg142116 date=1268551357]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6601.msg141787#msg141787 date=1268520814]
Huzzah! I have more translations to fix!
Edit: I just had a thought: What does it mean if we stick this infix inside of an intransitive verb? Or would it be meaningless? Like, does *r<awn>ey mean anything?
[/quote]
The only way it could mean anything was if it transitivized the verb, "my life was lived well" etc. English is pretty flexible that way, but don't know about Na'vi
[/quote]
Hmm, so... would tawnerkup be... dead? Or am i misunderstanding how this participle works?
msg=143052 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:06:17 | u=1310
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Nawma_Tsamsiyan03
theoretically, i believe it past participle of die is dead, so the verb terkup would take up the "awn" infix, tawnerkup...just have to make sure if u have a noun you add the adjectival prefix accordingly! ...tawtute atawnerkup. (dead skyperson?)
msg=143096 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:30:58 | u=631
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]No, I don't think you do ... but it's "died" as in "the died father" I'm not sure whether this is common in English - I guess, English uses "late" for somebody who died: "the late father" or simply "the father who died"
In German it's possible to say "died father"
msg=143110 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:38:14 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
<awn> is PASSIVE participle, not PAST participle
msg=143134 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:48:04 | u=1310
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Nawma_Tsamsiyan03
..or is it a past participle in passive voice...what is a passive participle? cause i agree that i think it would be "died," but past participle is used to create a perfect tense or passive voice..."has eaten" vs "was eaten"..
msg=143167 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:09:36 | u=21
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
wm.annis
[quote author=Tsamsteu link=topic=6601.msg143134#msg143134 date=1268599684]
..or is it a past participle in passive voice...what is a passive participle? cause i agree that i think it would be "died," but past participle is used to create a perfect tense or passive voice..."has eaten" vs "was eaten"..
[/quote]
We're screwed up by the English language here. We only have a past passive participle. We have no good way to express a tenseless, passive participle, which ‹awn› is. So we have to fake it with our past passive participle.
msg=143191 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:18:27 | u=3552
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
tigermind
I have to admit, i'm pretty much limited to English when it comes to understanding fine points of grammar; but i think i see the difference between what i thought <awn> is and what it actually is. Irayo ayngeyä srungìri, ma smuktu.
msg=143195 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:20:12 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
"Died" would probably be something more like *tusolerkup or *tusalmerkup... But I don't think we've been told if/how the participle infix can be combined with tense or aspect.
msg=143223 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:36:49 | u=1257
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Talis
Well, so it's really passive?
Like... I don't know how to say in English... maybe like this:
"You have been seen" // "Du wurdest gesehen"
"You have been hit" // "Du wurdest getroffen" ?
Or is it different to the German "Passiv" ?
Someone said something like "Partizip II"... but I think this is really more like <us> ...
msg=143235 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:48:50 | u=0
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg143195#msg143195 date=1268601612]
"Died" would probably be something more like *tusolerkup or *tusalmerkup... But I don't think we've been told if/how the participle infix can be combined with tense or aspect.
[/quote]
I absoutely concede that most, especially yourself, know more about Na'vi than I, but when it comes to the examples that you've given, is it really essential that when translating Na'vi to English to be so literal? If Na'vi is bound to points of grammar that are NOT apparent in English, perhaps applying only what English uses is all we can do. If "dead," is not-living - an adjective - in Na'vi, why does that work? Why is rusey "living?" (Sure, rawney would be sort of odd, itself, but still...)
All I am saying is that it doesn't have to be that complicated. Hell, if the perfective and imperfective have to be translated as the English aspects "have **ed" and "**ing," then the active and passive participles might have to be just as we think they should be, until further notice, of course.
msg=143241 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 21:59:03 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
That's why I put the *, it's just a hypothetical construct that would carry similar semantics to the English... It may not be correct Na'vi at all, and I'm not sure I'd personally ever use it that way. The die example is probably bad because the semantic meaning is already mostly covered by a different word anyway. I'm not even sure the past participle in English even words on intransitive verbs... The only examples I can think of off the top of my head are verbs which have gained transitive meanings.
But you are correct, literal translation is not usually the best. There may be cases where a past participle would be useful in Na'vi, for sure, but trying to use the best Na'vi grammar to convey the meaning is what's important, especially since there are numerous ways that the same thing in English can be correctly translated to Na'vi, depending on the intended meaning.
msg=143491 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:46:57 | u=0
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg143241#msg143241 date=1268603943]
The die example is probably bad because the semantic meaning is already mostly covered by a different word anyway.
[/quote]
Then, may I offer a way that tawnerkup can be used...
We may say that tuserkup outlines the process of death. I feel that tawnerkup could be used to describe the finality of that process; new death. And, kerusey's for things that are long gone, or dead in a figurative sense.
I, equally, concede that such things are all speculative, but, in my head, make the most sense. What do you all think?
msg=143504 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:54:00 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
To get that meaning, you have to really redefine what a passive participle is though.
msg=143506 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:54:52 | u=21
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
wm.annis
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6601.msg143491#msg143491 date=1268617617]I, equally, concede that such things are all speculative, but, in my head, make the most sense. What do you all think?[/quote]
This seems an over-nice spin on what's basically a grammar question, I'm afraid. ;)
Using the passive participle infix here seems like saying "a deaded yerik" or "the flied man."
msg=143511 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:57:07 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6601.msg143506#msg143506 date=1268618092]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6601.msg143491#msg143491 date=1268617617]I, equally, concede that such things are all speculative, but, in my head, make the most sense. What do you all think?[/quote]
This seems an over-nice spin on what's basically a grammar question, I'm afraid. ;)
Using the passive participle infix here seems like saying "a deaded yerik" or "the flied man."
[/quote]That is an agreeded point to me.
msg=144013 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 13:39:05 | u=0
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg143504#msg143504 date=1268618040]
To get that meaning, you have to really redefine what a passive participle is though.
[/quote]
Help me to See, then - what is it?
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6601.msg143506#msg143506 date=1268618092]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6601.msg143491#msg143491 date=1268617617]I, equally, concede that such things are all speculative, but, in my head, make the most sense. What do you all think?[/quote]
This seems an over-nice spin on what's basically a grammar question, I'm afraid. ;)
Using the passive participle infix here seems like saying "a deaded yerik" or "the flied man."
[/quote]
Sounds good to me, so long as I'm right... :P
msg=144028 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 13:49:28 | u=1257
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Talis
So can somebody tell me: is it like the German "Passiv" or isn't it? ??? ::)
[quote]a deaded yerik[/quote]
this seems to me like the German "Passiv" but I'm not quite sure... ^^
msg=144622 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 19:12:13 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
As I understand wm's example of "a deaded yerik" it's showing why it is grammatically wrong with something grammatically wrong in English... As in something that die was done to (NOT something that itself died) which doesn't really make sense.
msg=144897 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:33:10 | u=664
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg144622#msg144622 date=1268680333]
As I understand wm's example of "a deaded yerik" it's showing why it is grammatically wrong with something grammatically wrong in English... As in something that die was done to (NOT something that itself died) which doesn't really make sense.
[/quote]
That is the real point I think, that this can only be used if the noun modified is the object of the verbal adjective, so a verb like "die" could never be used with <awm>. "kill" could, "make dead" could if <eyk> and <awm> could be used in the same word but I suspect they can't.
Anyways, long story short (and correct me if I'm wrong) use <awm> with verbs that can be transitive, if the noun is the object of that verb, otherwise use <us>.
Intransitive:Deaded yerik = tawnerkupa yerik (not grammatically correct)
Dying yerik =
tuserkupa yerik ex. The dying yerik howls.
Tuserkupa yerik nguway si.Dead yerik =
keruseya yerik ex. I eat the dead yerik.
Oel yom keruseya yerikit.Transitive:hunting yerik =
tusarona yerik ex. The hunting yerik does not see us.
Tusarona yerikil ke tse'a ayoeti.hunted yerik =
tawnarona yerik ex. The hunted yerik runs.
Tawnarona yerik tul.killing yerik =
tspusanga yerik ex. Many killing(deadly) yeriks are here.
Pxaya yerikil atspusang tok fìtsengit.killed yerik =
tspawnanga yerik ex. I take the killed yerik's heart.
Oel munge tspawnanga yerikyä txe'lanit.Who knows if you can put other tenses in there as well, but I don't think we necessarily NEED that functionality in the language to be understood.
-Keyl
msg=144926 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:47:03 | u=0
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6601.msg144897#msg144897 date=1268688790]
Deaded yerik = tawnerkupa yerik (not grammatically correct)
Dying yerik = tuserkupa yerik ex. The dying yerik howls. Tuserkupa yerik nguway si.
Dead yerik = keruseya yerik ex. I eat the dead yerik. Oel yom keruseya yerikit.
[/quote]
Well rendered - I get it. I suppose, in my anal-retentive ways, that I just figured that the use of kerusey, being a compound of sorts, was only used because that's all we had to express "death." Tawnerkup appeared more formulaic. But, it's all "understooded" now. ;D
msg=153993 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 14:54:41 | u=417
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Alìm Tsamsiyu
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6601.msg143235#msg143235 date=1268603330]
Why is rusey "living?" (Sure, rawney would be sort of odd, itself, but still...)
[/quote]
Am I incorrect in my understanding of this infix or wouldn't rawney be "live" as in "a live wire" or "a live specimen."
Perhaps even to the point of translating it as the adjective alive (even though that has very similar meaning to "living" in English, it does have its other uses).
msg=154017 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 15:10:01 | u=0
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=6601.msg153993#msg153993 date=1269269681]
Perhaps even to the point of translating it as the adjective alive (even though that has very similar meaning to "living" in English, it does have its other uses).
[/quote]
Yeah, I thought that, too. It will be intriguing how it all plays out.
msg=154130 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 16:29:08 | u=21
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
wm.annis
[quote author=Alìm Tsamsiyu link=topic=6601.msg153993#msg153993 date=1269269681]Am I incorrect in my understanding of this infix or wouldn't rawney be "live" as in "a live wire" or "a live specimen."
Perhaps even to the point of translating it as the adjective alive (even though that has very similar meaning to "living" in English, it does have its other uses).[/quote]
As ‹awn› has been given to us, rawney cannot be correct. It's like "colorless green ideas sleep furiously" — it's formally correct, but doesn't mean anything.
So, here's a simple sentence:
Nantangìl taron yerikit A viperwolf hunts a yerik.
In this example we've just got the normal, finite verb form, unmarked in any way. Na'vi gives us two ways to take this expression and turn parts of it into a noun phrase with a Noun + Adjective.
The active participle allows us to turn the subject and the verb into a noun phrase, nantang atusaron (a hunting viperwolf).
The passive participle allows us to turn the verb and the object into a noun phrase, tawnarona yerik (a being-hunted yerik).
So, an active participle is a sort of "subject adjective" and the passive participle is a sort of "object adjective." Because an intransitive verb like rey cannot have an object, an object adjective derived from it doesn't really make sense. For ‹awn› to go into an intransitive verb, its meaning would have to be extended. This is possible, but Frommer has given us no hint that this might happen.
msg=154291 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 17:48:14 | u=417
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Alìm Tsamsiyu
Ahh.. Tslolam. Irayo ma wm.annis, ngeyä aylì'ul fì'ut law sleyku.
msg=198948 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 21:43:53 | u=1751
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
blueme
How would y’all say everything is permitted?
I came up with [desc=thinking that "everything" here is really "every action"]frakem lu tawnunga kem[/desc], but maybe there's a more elegant solution.
msg=198970 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-29 22:10:07 | u=21
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
wm.annis
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6601.msg198948#msg198948 date=1272577433]
How would y’all say everything is permitted?[/quote]
Fko tsun frakem sivi.
But there may be more idiomatic solutions we'll have to wait on Frommer for.
msg=199062 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 00:05:00 | u=1751
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
blueme
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6601.msg198970#msg198970 date=1272579007]
But there may be more idiomatic solutions we'll have to wait on Frommer for.
[/quote]
Or simply ask for [desc=frakem lu :free:]free[/desc]. :D
msg=199163 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 04:10:32 | u=3552
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
tigermind
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6601.msg198948#msg198948 date=1272577433]
How would y’all say everything is permitted?
I came up with [desc=thinking that "everything" here is really "every action"]frakem lu tawnunga kem[/desc], but maybe there's a more elegant solution.
[/quote]
Oel ngati kame, ma Altayir.
msg=199302 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 10:39:33 | u=971
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
marger
It would be so much easier if we could say (as i know it is incorrect/forbidden):
Ke'u lu ngay, frakem lu tawnung.
[quote]Oel ngati kame, ma Altayir.[/quote]
With the PE he might learn some na'vi too ::) ;)
msg=199798 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 19:51:18 | u=73
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Prrton
[quote author=Hawnuyu atxen link=topic=6601.msg199302#msg199302 date=1272623973]
It would be so much easier if we could say (as i know it is incorrect/forbidden):
Ke'u lu ngay, frakem lu tawnung.
[/quote]
Ke'u lu ngay, frakemit tung.
There is a silent «fkol» in there that makes this the closest thing Na'vi has to "passive". It's not very IndoEuropean, but quite elegant in its simplicity.
The pattern is:
Promote the accusative noun to the head (most prominent area) of the sentence or clause and leave out the ergative "agent" if he/she/it is not needed. If completely "missing" the agent is assumed to be «fkol».
[Nothing is true, (one) allows every action.]
PS: I think of it as "Yoda passive".
msg=199808 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 20:01:18 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
The thing is the agent is rarely "completely" missing... It could be misunderstood as coming from context, so unless the context is already "fkol" as the agent, it should probably be said I'd imagine.
msg=199815 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 20:10:56 | u=73
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Prrton
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg199808#msg199808 date=1272657678]
The thing is the agent is rarely "completely" missing... It could be misunderstood as coming from context, so unless the context is already "fkol" as the agent, it should probably be said I'd imagine.
[/quote]
It only "hurts" to say it if it messes up flow or rhythm of the sentence.
I find it rather easy to "leave things out" in Na'vi that we couldn't do without in English because that's very common in Japanese. Once the topics and/or agents are understood from the context, it's much more NATURAL to leave them out.
However, in this particular case it does make sense to stick «fkol» in because (lacking context) that «tung» comes across as a strong candidate for an imperative.
msg=199824 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 20:16:55 | u=1550
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Taras
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6601.msg199798#msg199798 date=1272657078]
Ke'u lu ngay, frakemit tung.
[/quote]
Ke'u ke lu ngay... Oeru tìyawr, kefyak?
msg=199859 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 20:54:00 | u=1751
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
blueme
Oh, this is excellent, ma Prrton! Exactly the kind of elegant solution I was looking for. :D I know that wm.annis offered a very similar phrase, but I are a [desc=strawberry~]blonde[/desc], and keep forgetting about the possibility of elision, despite the fact that in Hungarian that's often the only correct way.
However, I agree with Kemaweyan in that it would be even better with the double negative.
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=6601.msg199824#msg199824 date=1272658615]
Ke'u ke lu ngay...[/quote]
Still, this wouldn't be my post if I didn't make an eagle-eyed (and potentially incorrect) observation regarding this:
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6601.msg199798#msg199798 date=1272657078]
[...] Promote the accusative noun to the head (most prominent area) of the sentence [...][/quote]
Here's what Pawl said about this earlier.
[quote=PF in LN Wiki – Canon]The only revision I made was to change the word order to place more emphasis on the "mine":
Ngeyä kxetse lu oeru.
(The end of the sentence is where the "punch" comes.)[/quote]
From this I understand that the most prominent area is the end of the sentence.
msg=200012 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-04-30 23:13:10 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
That's to really give that an extra *punch*. Like in English if you said a word with extra emphasis. What prrton is referring to is just shifting the main focus, which also per frommer tends to come from the first position.
Tsakemit fkol tung - That is allowed
Tung fkol tsakemit - *THAT* is allowed
msg=200578 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 18:27:23 | u=73
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Prrton
I agree with tsmukan Omängum Fra'uti. By putting (most prominent area) in parentheses, I didn't mean that that is always the head. I should have written (or the 'most prominent area') because in Altaic word order, sometime that doesn't come first. In Eri's 'tail' advert campaign, I see why K. Pawl felt that the 'end' was best for the *punch*, but as a general rule, he tends to put things that are more important in earlier on. I've almost never seen a TOPIC(ìri) come late in the game, for example.
And, K.P. specifically said (to me. Sorry I don't have it in writing) about this construct that the "thing possessed" should be PROMOTED (typically to the front of the action). In the practice of writing (on average), I think that would more likely be earlier on. In conversation (more like what an ad slogan would be too), that position of promotion could be elsewhere.
The point is to HIGHLIGHT the noun in the accusative (-t, -ti, -it) wherever you the speaker think that is.
[desc=Her THROAT was being snacked upon by the vampire.]Flewit peyä näk reypayìt a vrrtepìl frarmìp.[/desc]
~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, and the double negative is good ("very good only"). ;) BUT, it's not required, either, according to my understanding.
msg=200624 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 19:25:32 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
what makes you say its not required? in situations that call for it, the impression that I got is that grammatically it is required. However its ambiguous if it would be used with the copula.
msg=200684 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 20:47:40 | u=1751
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
blueme
I wanted to ask the same thing. :D It would seem to me that the logic of negation is a very fundamental piece of a language's grammar, and if double negatives are allowed then they are, in fact, also required. Then again, passive in Na’vi isn't absolute [desc=there's no passive clause but there's a passive participle infix]either[/desc], and the whole language is very permissive, so whatever...
msg=200691 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 21:02:46 | u=21
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
wm.annis
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6601.msg200684#msg200684 date=1272746860]
I wanted to ask the same thing. :D It would seem to me that the logic of negation is a very fundamental piece of a language's grammar, and if double negatives are allowed then they are, in fact, also required. [/quote]
Plenty of natural languages allow double negation but don't require it, for example, ancient Greek.
msg=200715 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-01 21:46:44 | u=54
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Tiger
It wouldn't surprise me to see Na'vi fall into that category as well... But did you get the impression from the wording that Paul used that the double negative was required, or just that he was recommending it in that situation?
msg=201321 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 19:13:34 | u=73
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Prrton
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6601.msg200715#msg200715 date=1272750404]
It wouldn't surprise me to see Na'vi fall into that category as well... But did you get the impression from the wording that Paul used that the double negative was required, or just that he was recommending it in that situation?
[/quote]
Perhaps I had lost the sense of the original meaning that was being sought. I was focused on the passive aspect, more than the negation of the first half when I first commented on this.
Ke'u lu ngay, frakemit tung.
Is «Ke'u lu ngay» supposed to be "nothing is real" or "nothing is true"?
That seems perfectly valid to me.
But, «Ke lu ke'u a ngay (lu)» might be my preferred translation for that.
Spanish allows double negation but does not require it.
- Hay nada que puedes decir... There's nothing that you can say...
- No hay nada que puedes decir... There's NOTHING that you can say...
- No hay nada que nadie puede decir... There's NOTHING that ANYONE can say...
English also allows double (and triple) negatives. They just don't happen to be blessed by the establishment.
- I ain't got n'more time to waste on nobody the likes o' you.
- I don't have any more time to waste with anyone of your ilk.
The speaker is "fed up" with the behavior of the listener and is precluding the possibility of future intercourse.
The core *meaning* is the same in both sentences. The register is quite different but completely mutually intelligible (at least in one direction). The "ain't" register speaker might struggle a bit with the "fancy talk" à la "ilk."
I've gotten the sense from K. Pawl that double (and triple) negation in Na'vi is allowed (and in many cases preferred), but not required semantically in all cases. I've been using it to STRENGTHEN negativity, but sometimes the most subtle, quiet message is the most powerful.
Maybe my Spanish accent is stronger than I think.
;)
msg=201351 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 19:50:27 | u=595
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
lightning
I think we really need a clarification from Karyu Pawl here.
I myself don't recall any canonical sentence calling for a double negative but not having it. That leads me to the opinion that Na'vi negative concord indeed is grammatically required, as is the case with Slavic languages. By that logic, a statement like "Ke'u lu ngay" would be nonsensical as it would say something along the lines of "There IS some thing that is true and that thing is the/a no-thing", instead of the English "Nothing is true" you native speakers tend to see there ;)
However, judging by the general level of flexibility in Na'vi (word order, subordination, pro-drop, tense/aspect drop), I agree with wm.annis and omängum fra'uti that the recommended-but-not-required approach would actually fit the language better.
msg=201439 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-02 21:55:13 | u=73
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Prrton
[quote author=Tawtakuk link=topic=6601.msg201351#msg201351 date=1272829827]
I think we really need a clarification from Karyu Pawl here.
I myself don't recall any canonical sentence calling for a double negative but not having it. That leads me to the opinion that Na'vi negative concord indeed is grammatically required, as is the case with Slavic languages. By that logic, a statement like "Ke'u lu ngay" would be nonsensical as it would say something along the lines of "There IS some thing that is true and that thing is the/a no-thing", instead of the English "Nothing is true" you native speakers tend to see there ;)
However, judging by the general level of flexibility in Na'vi (word order, subordination, pro-drop, tense/aspect drop), I agree with wm.annis and omängum fra'uti that the recommended-but-not-required approach would actually fit the language better.
[/quote]
I've asked. Will post reply here or separately in this area when/if it arrives.
By "calling for" do you mean "where one would expect based on one's understanding of the rules"? If they (double negatives) are optional (truly optional) then they are never technically "called for" based on my understanding of "called for."
And I'm not
exactly sure what
«ke'u» means either. It could be as much of a philosophical question as a grammatical one.
Kea 'u lu ngay.
Lu ngay 'u ake.
Ke lu kea 'u a ngay lu.
Ngay a 'u lu ke'u.Oel fpìl futa fìtìpawmìri ral a lu txeleuo ke lu horenteri lì'fyaoyä nì'aw. ;)
[desc=Satyān nāsti parō dharmah.][img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Satyan.png[/img][/desc]
msg=201592 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 04:07:58 | u=73
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
Prrton
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=6601.msg201439#msg201439 date=1272837313]
[quote author=Tawtakuk link=topic=6601.msg201351#msg201351 date=1272829827]
I think we really need a clarification from Karyu Pawl here.
I myself don't recall any canonical sentence calling for a double negative but not having it. That leads me to the opinion that Na'vi negative concord indeed is grammatically required, as is the case with Slavic languages. By that logic, a statement like "Ke'u lu ngay" would be nonsensical as it would say something along the lines of "There IS some thing that is true and that thing is the/a no-thing", instead of the English "Nothing is true" you native speakers tend to see there ;)
However, judging by the general level of flexibility in Na'vi (word order, subordination, pro-drop, tense/aspect drop), I agree with wm.annis and omängum fra'uti that the recommended-but-not-required approach would actually fit the language better.
[/quote]
I've asked. Will post reply here or separately in this area when/if it arrives.
[/quote]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/double-negatives-not-optional/]Tì'eyng poläheiem[/url] ulte tsakoren lu law nìwotx.
msg=201619 | topic=6601 | board=99 | time=2010-05-03 05:00:18 | u=595
Re: A new participle infix: ‹awn›
lightning
... and the off-topic is resolved :) Thanks for asking that question, and I am truly amazed how quickly we got the response.
msg=141674 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 21:48:34 | u=1120
more grammatical tidbits
roger
Since I've been asked to combine releases, I plan on adding to this post over the next couple days, so you might want to check back.
conjunctions &c.: however, although, instead
We've finally got Grace's first line!
Tsun tivam. Aylì’u ngian nì’it skepek lu.
Not bad. (= [that] can do.) You sound rather formal. (= [your] words, however, are a bit formal.)
ngian = however ADV
skepek = formal (stress not confirmed; taken from the film)
I don't know if ngian can be used as a conjunction ("I'll make it however you like.") However (ngian), I imagine that that might be spelled out as "that way which (you like)", and that ngian is only used as an adverb, as here. (Frommer only glosses it as an adverb.)
We do have a couple other conjunctions, hufwa I don't have examples of their use:
hufwa = although CONJ
tup = instead of, rather than CONJ
I assume hufwa is a compound of hu 'together with' and fwa 'that' (subordinating conjunction), as in "with = given that I want to go" --> "although I want to go", but it's not too clear to me.
It would be cool if we could say ??poru ngatup "(gave it) to him rather than you", but I don't know if we can. We'd lose the dative on "you" that way, which could be a problem. (Could be read as "I rather than you gave it to him".)
indefinite pronouns
Made by tacking -o on a noun:
'uo something
tuteo somebody
tsengo somewhere
Wonder if there's a connection between this -o and the o- that seems to derive oeyk 'a cause' from eyk 'to lead'.
how much/many
We have holpxay 'number' from hol 'few' + pxay 'many'. Add pe and we get holpxaype, polpxay "how many".
Same thing w "how much": txan is 'much' (great quantity), a new word hìm 'a little' (small quantity), for hìmtxan 'amount' and hìmtxampe, pìmtxan "how much".
Note the contraction so that the pe is always adjacent to the stress. In lì’upe, pelì’u "what (word)" the stress shifts for the same result; I'm not sure yet if it's supposed to or if that was a typo. Anyway, that's all the preconstructed interrogatives.
[end of updates]
msg=141693 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 22:00:22 | u=1550
Re: more grammatical tidbits
Taras
Tewti! Set oel tslolam tsaylì'ut ulte prrte' leiu :D
msg=141740 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-13 22:30:47 | u=631
Re: more grammatical tidbits
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Irayo futa ngal ayoengar tìng fìfmawnit :)
msg=142048 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 04:03:05 | u=1225
Re: more grammatical tidbits
neotrekkerz
Hufwa awnga nolume txana ayu, oe frakrr nolew ivomum ralit faylì'uyä. Txantsan!
msg=142152 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 08:50:04 | u=2873
Re: more grammatical tidbits
Skyinou
[quote author=roger link=topic=6638.msg141674#msg141674 date=1268516914]
It would be cool if we could say ??poru ngatup "(gave it) to him rather than you", but I don't know if we can. We'd lose the dative on "you" that way, which could be a problem. (Could be read as "I rather than you gave it to him".)
[/quote]
Why not "ngarutup" then?
msg=142156 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 09:03:39 | u=1120
Re: more grammatical tidbits
roger
I don't know if we can double up case/adposition endings like that. If we can, then that would work.
msg=142982 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 19:18:21 | u=631
Re: more grammatical tidbits
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]But that would work against all we've learned so far and only confuse all those who wanted to put case endings on nouns after adpositions ... Frommer always uses the 'nominative' / caseless form of the (pro)noun after an adposition.
msg=143013 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 19:36:59 | u=1550
Re: more grammatical tidbits
Taras
Tewti! Irayo ;) Txantsana fmawm a san -o sìk, san holpxaype sìk sì lahe...
msg=143070 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:16:28 | u=2873
Re: more grammatical tidbits
Skyinou
[quote author=roger link=topic=6638.msg142156#msg142156 date=1268557419]
I don't know if we can double up case/adposition endings like that. If we can, then that would work.
[/quote]
We already have "horentisì" from Frommer, is it different from a linguistical point of view?
msg=143114 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 20:40:09 | u=54
Re: more grammatical tidbits
Tiger
sì isn't an adposition, it's a conjunction.
msg=143329 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-14 22:51:04 | u=1120
Re: more grammatical tidbits
roger
Tup, like sì, is labeled a conjunction.
msg=143648 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:27:36 | u=1225
Re: more grammatical tidbits
neotrekkerz
[quote]indefinite pronouns
Made by tacking -o on a noun:
'uo something
tuteo somebody
tsengo somewhere[/quote]
So is someone fkoyo, fko, or something else?
msg=143752 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 05:06:24 | u=54
Re: more grammatical tidbits
Tiger
Someone in English is a synonym for somebody, so tuteo I would use for someone.
msg=143756 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 05:13:21 | u=1225
Re: more grammatical tidbits
neotrekkerz
Ah yes, a much easier way.
msg=143771 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 05:28:37 | u=1120
Re: more grammatical tidbits
roger
It's actually glossed as "someone", but I'm trying to keep "X-one" for po-derivatives and "X-body" for tute-derivatives. Not really a meaningful distinction in English, but we may have a difference in Na'vi between tsa'u "that thing", tsapo "that one (animate)", and tsatu "that person": it's not yet clear.
msg=144636 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 19:19:41 | u=134
Re: more grammatical tidbits
vidvamp01
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6638.msg143752#msg143752 date=1268629584]
Someone in English is a synonym for somebody, so tuteo I would use for someone.
[/quote]
Whats worse is all of the dictionaries use some person as the definition for finding synonyms. LOL
However there are two definitions.
pronoun . An unspecified or unknown person.
n. A person of unique qualities.
It is possible that these definitions are segregated.
msg=145086 | topic=6638 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 23:53:58 | u=132
Re: more grammatical tidbits
Taronyu
Added everything.
msg=143449 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 00:59:04 | u=21
A collection
wm.annis
I recently translated a Navajo Coyote tale into Na'vi. There were a few words missing, and I had a few style questions I wanted checked by Karyu Pawl before I was willing to present the text in public. I have a few updates to make to that story yet, but I thought people would be interested in some of the comments, which include some grammar as well as a few new bits of vocabulary.
[quote]This would be a good place for the “indefinite o.” You can optionally add an o to nouns to show indefiniteness—an N, one N, some N. (The case endings follow the o.) Useful in contexts where the def./indef. status isn’t clear. (Cf. one kid’s comment to another when Jake first visits Hometree: “Txopu rä’ä si, lu ketuwongo nì’aw.” Also cf. tsengo ‘somewhere, ’ tuteo ‘someone’) Here, without the –o the opening could be read, “It was the day when . . .”
Encounter, meet by chance = ul
txarun. (Cf. ultxa si hu = meet with s.o. intentionally).
Nang is always sentence-final and appears with nìtxan.
Mì is like en in Spanish—either ‘in’ or ‘on.’ Back (body part) = txal.
“I wish” or “Oh that . . .” is nì
rangal (
rangal ‘wish’ v.) followed by the present imperfective subjunctive –irv- for present counterfactuals or the present perfective subjunctive –ilv- for past counterfactuals.
Better: Pìsyeng oe ngar. The two future markers have alternate forms with s: -ì(s)y- and -a(s)y- . The s-forms are used optionally to indicate determination to bring something about rather than a simple prediction about the future. (I used them occasionally but probably shd. do so more.)
Spark =
txepvi. (-vi is a formative along the lines of what Kirk and Britton have suggested. It’s related to “child” (cf. ’eveng, ’evi; also cf. Malay/Indonesian “anak”) and is used loosely for the spawn of s.t. bigger. So sparks are the children of the fire. (Cf. also Na’vi!)
Lefpom is nfp (not for people)—use it for “happy story,” “joyous occasion,” etc. For people: nit
ram. For internal states (happy, sad, hot, cold, hungry, thirsty, . . .) use ’efu + ADJ, as in Eng. “I feel cold.”
Tok is actually a transitive verb (!): to be in a place is to occupy that place and thereby change its nature. (2) With krr, txan is the opposite of yol. Cf.: Yola krr, txana krr, ke transten. “It doesn’t matter how long it takes” (a Moat line that I don’t think made it to the final cut).
[/quote]
I asked him how to indicate simultaneous action, "she ran away laughing."
[quote]I’ve been using tengkrr plus –er-[/quote]
Finally,
[quote]Chase =
fewi, catch =
stä’nì. Don’t forget ke along with kawkrr. [/quote]
Comments:
[*] The perfective if ultxarun is ultxarolun, so it's a compound verb.
[*] Squeeee! New future infixes!
[*] Indefinite -o will make many people happy.
[*] Note the instructions about ke with kawkrr
msg=143465 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:18:57 | u=1550
Re: A collection
Taras
Tewti, irayo.
Ngian lu oeru 'awtìpawm a lu eyawr lì'u a san transten sìk srak? Fu nìeyawr fko pivlltxe san tsranten sìk srak?
msg=143474 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:26:50 | u=21
Re: A collection
wm.annis
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=6709.msg143465#msg143465 date=1268615937]Ngian lu oeru 'awtìpawm a lu eyawr lì'u a san transten sìk srak?[/quote]
Oel fpìl futa san transten sìk lu kxeyey.
msg=143485 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:41:28 | u=1550
Re: A collection
Taras
Irayo, oe fpìl tengfya ;)
msg=143502 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:52:43 | u=631
Re: A collection
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]tewti!!! :)
thanks for sharing!!!
msg=143505 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 01:54:44 | u=54
Re: A collection
Tiger
Wow, you sure know how to get new stuff out of him.
msg=143520 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 02:03:05 | u=21
Re: A collection
wm.annis
I ask infrequently, but with precision. ;)
I also asked about nouns ending in the pseudo-vowels. Because they cannot occur in closed syllables or occur next to their consonantal siblings there are some interesting puzzles.
I gave him this:
trr 'ewll
trrìl 'ewllìl
trrit (trrti) 'ewllit ('ewllti)
trrur 'ewllur ('ewllru?)
trrä 'ewllä (actually, I forgot the genitives)
trrìri 'ewllìri ('ewllri?)
And he answered,
[quote]Yes, those forms all look good. (And I'd avoid the ones in parentheses that you've questioned.) Also: trrä, 'ewllä.[/quote]
msg=143529 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 02:11:44 | u=54
Re: A collection
Tiger
Ah now that you show that all in context... It sounds like the parenthesized forms are kangay, but probably should be avoided as bad practice most of the time.
msg=143597 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 02:50:08 | u=631
Re: A collection
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]A few follow-up questions after having gone through it completely and trying to use it for the German forum...
Are "catch" and "chase" nouns or verbs?
I'm not sure I get the concept of tok being a transitive verb. Does that mean, that I would say
*oel na'rìngit tok for "I'm in (or at?) the forest" ???
Do I understand the infixes ‹irv› and ‹ilv› after nìrangal correctly as conditional I and II respectively ???
Would you understand the ‹asy› and ‹ìsy› infixes as something along the lines what I was talking about in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/topic-time/msg128506/#msg128506]Topic: Time[/url] thread?
msg=143622 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:08:33 | u=1317
Re: A collection
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
I think I'm a little confused. So since lefpom is nfp does that mean instead of saying "Ngaru lefpom srak?" It should be "Ngaru nitram srak?" or "Ngaru lu nitram srak?"?
msg=143633 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:19:18 | u=1225
Re: A collection
neotrekkerz
[quote]Note the instructions about ke with kawkrr[/quote]
Does this mean I never traveled to Hometree is Oe kawkrr ne Kelutral ke samop?
I'll also echo Plumps83's confusion over the new tenses:
irv: I wish I were going there
ilv: I wish I had gone there
Also, if my interpretation of ilv is correct, how would you translate alm in my example sentence?
alm: I had gone there (no possibility)???
msg=143644 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:25:07 | u=3552
Re: A collection
tigermind
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=6709.msg143633#msg143633 date=1268623158]
[quote]Note the instructions about ke with kawkrr[/quote]
Does this mean I never traveled to Hometree is Oe kawkrr ne Kelutral ke samop?
[/quote]
Oel spaw futa ngeyä säfpìl lu eyawr. C'est un peu comme <<ne...jamais>> en français, n'est-ce pas? On peut dire <<never>> ou <<not ever>> en anglais.
msg=143659 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:33:36 | u=3552
Re: A collection
tigermind
[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=6709.msg143622#msg143622 date=1268622513]
I think I'm a little confused. So since lefpom is nfp does that mean instead of saying "Ngaru lefpom srak?" It should be "Ngaru nitram srak?" or "Ngaru lu nitram srak?"?
[/quote]
We say ngaru lu fpom srak--literally, do you have happiness. I think Karyu Pawl is saying that *Oe lefpom lu* is incorrect, but Oe nitram lu is fine.
What makes this funny to me is that if nitram is "happy" then "happily" is nìnitram.
msg=143667 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:38:21 | u=1317
Re: A collection
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
I know the majority of us used ngaru lu fpom srak but I've also seen ngaru lefpom srak a decent amount too.
msg=143682 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 03:45:14 | u=3552
Re: A collection
tigermind
[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=6709.msg143667#msg143667 date=1268624301]
I know the majority of us used ngaru lu fpom srak but I've also seen ngaru lefpom srak a decent amount too.
[/quote]
And i don't want to offend, but i think that's a simple mistake. It doesn't make grammatical sense to have the dative suffix on nga and then use an adjective instead of a noun. I think it probably comes from a mishearing/misremembering of "lu fpom".
msg=143856 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 09:21:49 | u=2788
Re: A collection
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6709.msg143597#msg143597 date=1268621408]
[font=Garamond]I'm not sure I get the concept of tok being a transitive verb. Does that mean, that I would say
*oel na'rìngit tok for "I'm in (or at?) the forest" ???
[/quote]
You would, but it also means we need to reinterpret the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#New_York_Times]NYT spoken sample[/url], which has been assumed to be:
Oe( )hu Txewì trram na'rìngmì tarmok ...
If tok is transitive, then it's probably na'rìngit instead, which fits with what I hear, but I can't find an ergative -l on either oe (which is monosyllabic here) or Txewì. Perhaps he's just changed his mind about it since then?
Anyway, it mirrors the Klingon Dab, which means "dwell at, inhabit a place" and takes the place in question as its direct object: tera' vIDab I live on Earth rather than **tera'Daq jIDab using locative and intransitive markers. In fact, Klingon does this a lot, with verbs you'd not expect from an English perspective.
As for lefpom, remember that it is an adjectival derivation of fpom well-being, peace, harmony with the natural world, not "happiness" per se.
msg=143865 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 09:42:37 | u=54
Re: A collection
Tiger
I've always heard the oe there as oel and na'rìng as na'rìngit, so that just clears it up nicely. I'd figured it was just mishearing because of the nearby sounds when I was told tok was intransitive.
Oel hu Txewì trram na'rìngit tarmok, tsole'a syeptutet atsawl frato mì sìrey. Lu fo lehrrap. Tsun tute spivang ko. Oel omum. Nari si ayoe fteke nìhawng livok.
msg=143870 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 09:46:43 | u=631
Re: A collection
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]That beeing cleared up ... can you comment on my other questions? :)
msg=143964 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 12:46:01 | u=21
Re: A collection
wm.annis
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6709.msg143597#msg143597 date=1268621408]Are "catch" and "chase" nouns or verbs?[/quote]
Verbs, sorry. I removed too much context.
[quote]Do I understand the infixes ‹irv› and ‹ilv› after nìrangal correctly as conditional I and II respectively ???[/quote]
Since I do not know what you mean by "conditional I" and "conditional II", I cannot say. Which language are you borrowing this terminology from? "Conditional II" in Old Occitan is probably different from "Conditional II" in, say, some obscure Bantu language. ;)
[quote]Would you understand the ‹asy› and ‹ìsy› infixes as something along the lines what I was talking about in the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/topic-time/msg128506/#msg128506]Topic: Time[/url] thread?[/quote]
It sure looks close, doesn't it.
msg=144056 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 14:16:24 | u=631
Re: A collection
Plumps83
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6709.msg143964#msg143964 date=1268657161]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=6709.msg143597#msg143597 date=1268621408]Are "catch" and "chase" nouns or verbs?[/quote]
Verbs, sorry. I removed too much context.
[quote]Do I understand the infixes ‹irv› and ‹ilv› after nìrangal correctly as conditional I and II respectively ???[/quote]
Since I do not know what you mean by "conditional I" and "conditional II", I cannot say. Which language are you borrowing this terminology from? "Conditional II" in Old Occitan is probably different from "Conditional II" in, say, some obscure Bantu language. ;)[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Sorry, now I removed too much context ;)
I meant the conditional in English sentences
If she comes, we'll go to the movies => conditional I
If I were you, I would do things differently => conditional II
The terminology is from German teaching ;D so, maybe there is a difference in defining these things...
Otherwise, thanks for the clarification.
msg=144714 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 19:52:42 | u=1225
Re: A collection
neotrekkerz
Ma wm.annis,
see [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/a-collection/msg143633/#msg143633]my post[/url] for the same question in English structures.
msg=144844 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:04:37 | u=21
Re: A collection
wm.annis
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=6709.msg143633#msg143633 date=1268623158]Does this mean I never traveled to Hometree is Oe kawkrr ne Kelutral ke samop?[/quote]
Yep.
[quote]irv: I wish I were going there
ilv: I wish I had gone there[/quote]
Mmm... not quite. The nìrangal construction we got is for unattainable wishes (or at least wishes the speaker considers unattainable). So, more like "If only I were going there!" or "If only I had gone there!"
[quote]Also, if my interpretation of ilv is correct, how would you translate alm in my example sentence?
alm: I had gone there (no possibility)???[/quote]
I have no idea how to interpret this.
msg=144862 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 21:15:25 | u=1225
Re: A collection
neotrekkerz
[quote]Mmm... not quite. The nìrangal construction we got is for unattainable wishes (or at least wishes the speaker considers unattainable). So, more like "If only I were going there!" or "If only I had gone there!"[/quote]
So Oe(l) rangal (tsnì or futa) oe tsirvun sivop ne Pandora would be I wish I could travel to Pandora (even though it's impossible)? Not sure about the transitivity of rangal.
[quote]I have no idea how to interpret this.[/quote]
Should have been more clear here. If you saw Fo kalmä ne Kelutral, would you translate it as She had gone to Hometree?
msg=144955 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 22:03:35 | u=664
Re: A collection
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6709.msg143520#msg143520 date=1268618585]
I also asked about nouns ending in the pseudo-vowels. Because they cannot occur in closed syllables or occur next to their consonantal siblings there are some interesting puzzles.
[/quote]
I don't understand that line: we have krrnetx krrpe, kllfro', kllkä, etc...
I can see why "krrt" would be illegal, but not "krrti" - unless it is just a matter of Dr. Frommer's personal preference.
-Keyl
msg=144967 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 22:10:10 | u=2788
Re: A collection
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6709.msg144955#msg144955 date=1268690615]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6709.msg143520#msg143520 date=1268618585]
I also asked about nouns ending in the pseudo-vowels. Because they cannot occur in closed syllables or occur next to their consonantal siblings there are some interesting puzzles.
[/quote]
I don't understand that line: we have krrnetx krrpe, kllfro', kllkä, etc...
I can see why "krrt" would be illegal, but not "krrti" - unless it is just a matter of Dr. Frommer's personal preference.
[/quote]
He's referring to the process whereby r + rr > r or l + ll > l, as in poltxe (plltxe + ‹ol›. Regarding krrt versus krrti, the t is syllable-initial in the latter (first syllable is open), but syllable-final in the former (first syllable is closed).
msg=145017 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 22:46:43 | u=664
Re: A collection
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=6709.msg144967#msg144967 date=1268691010]
He's referring to the process whereby r + rr > r or l + ll > l, as in poltxe (plltxe + ‹ol›.
[/quote]
Ah, cool. That's what you were talking about. I didn't realize that ll + r would also be "unstable". Make sense now. :)
[quote]Regarding krrt versus krrti, the t is syllable-initial in the latter (first syllable is open), but syllable-final in the former (first syllable is closed).[/quote]
Yes, I as I said, I see why "krrt" is illegal, but I thought that he said the ones in parenthesis (including krrti and 'ewllti) should be avoided. Or was he just talking about ('ewllru) and ('ewllri)?
-Keyl
msg=145027 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-15 22:50:16 | u=21
Re: A collection
wm.annis
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6709.msg145017#msg145017 date=1268693203]Yes, I as I said, I see why "krrt" is illegal, but I thought that he said the ones in parenthesis (including krrti and 'ewllti) should be avoided. Or was he just talking about ('ewllru) and ('ewllri)?[/quote]
Only the ones I crossed out, is how I interpret Frommer's comments. The long accusatives, trrti, 'ewllti should be fine. I hadn't added question marks to those in the mail I sent him.
msg=145099 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 00:14:47 | u=21
Re: A collection
wm.annis
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=6709.msg144862#msg144862 date=1268687725]So Oe(l) rangal (tsnì or futa) oe tsirvun sivop ne Pandora would be I wish I could travel to Pandora (even though it's impossible)? Not sure about the transitivity of rangal.[/quote]
We don't yet know how to use rangal fully. He gave me enough to work with the Coyote tale, but the word "wish" was also on our list of desired words to him. Hopefully he'll give syntax guidance in that.
[quote]Should have been more clear here. If you saw Fo kalmä ne Kelutral, would you translate it as She had gone to Hometree?[/quote]
As it stands, I would not. I'd translate that just as "They went to Hometree." But, in some compound sentences, the "had gone" might make sense for an English translation, based on what I've seen of Frommer's use of the perfective in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#A_Message_From_Paul]Message from Paul[/url].
msg=145384 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 07:29:40 | u=1120
Re: A collection
roger
[quote]Here, without the –o the opening could be read, “It was the day when . . .[/quote]
Could you give the phrase without the -o meaning 'it was the day when', so that we can see the contrast?
[quote]Yola krr, txana krr, ke transten[/quote]
I assume *transten is a typo. Do you know what it's supposed to be? I'm not finding any likely candidate.
msg=145412 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 08:38:56 | u=54
Re: A collection
Tiger
Tsranten. I actually didn't even realize it wasn't until you mentioned it, I'm apparently fluent in Na'vi typo too.
msg=145466 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:37:37 | u=1120
Re: A collection
roger
Wouldn't it be great if we could use the intentional mood in other tenses, say to distinguish
po zamup "he fell"
from
??po zasmup "he took a fall" ?
That would be handy for so many things: "he coughed" because he has a cold vs. "he coughed" as an ehem warning to s.o. about to spill the beans. Etc.
msg=145478 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:57:31 | u=631
Re: A collection
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]That's an interesting aspect ... well, let's see what Frommer says to that...
I only hope that the amount of infixes that we have won't lead to confusion or that we can't distinguish the base verb underneath it all :P
msg=145491 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 11:11:11 | u=1120
Re: A collection
roger
It doesn't actually seem to be a problem. They're in set positions, mostly just in one, and after you see the forms over and over, I expect you'd get a feel for them. A bit like worrying that Turkish vowel harmony would obscure the underlying word--after a while, you don't even notice it.
Since every single verb we have apart from compounds is at most disyllabic, then they're pretty straightforward to parse: Consonant, infix, remainder of verb root.
We have 31 infixes, counting fused ones. If the intentional can be used in the non-future, that would grow to 34. There are lots of languages which have more case-number-gender forms on their nouns or PNG-TAM forms on their verbs than 34, often quite irregular, and their speakers don't have any problem!
msg=145929 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 16:40:27 | u=3552
Re: A collection
tigermind
[quote author=roger link=topic=6709.msg145466#msg145466 date=1268735857]
Wouldn't it be great if we could use the intentional mood in other tenses, say to distinguish
po zamup "he fell"
from
??po zasmup "he took a fall" ?
That would be handy for so many things: "he coughed" because he has a cold vs. "he coughed" as an ehem warning to s.o. about to spill the beans. Etc.
[/quote]
Oe mllteie!
msg=145989 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 17:10:53 | u=699
Re: A collection
Doryban
Why isn't anyone writing a new pocket guide with all these updates?
msg=146104 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 18:20:54 | u=132
Re: A collection
Taronyu
[quote author=Ayzìsìt Alenantang link=topic=6709.msg145989#msg145989 date=1268759453]
Why isn't anyone writing a new pocket guide with all these updates?
[/quote]
Because of time. Karyu Amawey has tons of essays, and the Na'vi in a Nutshell thing wouldn't have the space to take this up. I've discontinued my Grammar project, and I think roger is making one for linguists, but no one is willing to put in effort for something that would be obselete tomorrow.
The wiki is our own hope now...
msg=146171 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 19:12:55 | u=1225
Re: A collection
neotrekkerz
[quote]The two future markers have alternate forms with s: -ì(s)y- and -a(s)y- . The s-forms are used optionally to indicate determination to bring something about rather than a simple prediction about the future.[/quote]
I'm wondering if we could also use these infixes to make "shall verb" sentences.
Oe ultxa sasyi hu ngaru slä ke set. I shall meet with you (later), but not now.
Thoughts?
msg=146856 | topic=6709 | board=99 | time=2010-03-17 07:04:25 | u=1120
Re: A collection
roger
That's what "will" originally meant, though that's been obscured by time. So asy, ìsy are like the English "future" of centuries past, whereas ay, ìy are true futures as found in Latin.
msg=145127 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 00:46:49 | u=21
Words: some new, some made clear
wm.annis
A few words with comments. Some of these are old, but have clarifications (part of speech, accenting, etc.).
pamrel n. "writing"; pamrel si for "to write"
tutan n. "male (person)"
nìayoeng adv. "like us, as we do" (pronounced as nayweng).
nìtam adv. "enough" (after an adjective)
äie n. "vision" (spiritual)
yol adj. NOTE NOTE NOTE — the definition of this given in the ASG is backwards! This means "short (of time)".
sran conv. "yeah," a shortened version of srane
weyn v. "draw, illustrate"
fìtrr adv. "today"
fratrr adv. "every day"
msg=145134 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 00:58:30 | u=1550
Re: Words: some new, some made clear
Taras
Irayo ;) Oe ke tsarmun tslivam ralit faylì'uyä a san yola krr, txana krr, ke transten sìk (ta 'upxare trramä) :) Txo yol = long sì txan = much, ral tsaylì'uyä leskxawng längu :-\\ Ngian set oel olomum futa yol = short :) Oe zene eltu sivi teri tsa'u...
Ulte nìmun irayo seiyi teri lì'u a san sran sìk. Hufwa.. fralì'u oeru tsranten.. Irayo :)
msg=145140 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 01:09:37 | u=132
Re: Words: some new, some made clear
Taronyu
Added. :)
msg=145147 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 01:16:22 | u=1550
Re: Words: some new, some made clear
Taras
Tewti! Fìtxan nìwin! Kxawm ngeyä mipa fya'o a tìngop *dictionary*-yä lamu txantsana säpìl :) Irayo, oel molunge tsa'ut ulte sìyar ;)
msg=145230 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 03:31:28 | u=0
Re: Words: some new, some made clear
Swoka Swizaw
Grr. And I had just printed out the update from yesterday...damn.
msg=145282 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 04:38:54 | u=3039
Re: Words: some new, some made clear
Serena
Irayo nìtxan :)
set oe tsun pivlltxe san nìayoeng sìk luke tìsraw ftxìyä oeyä
msg=145301 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 04:56:45 | u=0
Re: Words: some new, some made clear
Eaite Randjam
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6777.msg145230#msg145230 date=1268710288]
Grr. And I had just printed out the update from yesterday...damn.
[/quote]Just goes to show you how quickly a language such as this can be added to/changed. ^^
msg=145324 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 05:10:17 | u=0
Re: Words: some new, some made clear
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Eaite Randjam link=topic=6777.msg145301#msg145301 date=1268715405]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6777.msg145230#msg145230 date=1268710288]
Grr. And I had just printed out the update from yesterday...damn.
[/quote]Just goes to show you how quickly a language such as this can be added to/changed. ^^
[/quote]
No kidding. I just don't know where it all comes from if Frommer CAN'T release the whole thing. It's all semantic bullshite. (Knowing, too, that he has no say.)
msg=145451 | topic=6777 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 09:53:19 | u=54
Re: Words: some new, some made clear
Tiger
Pronunciation samples:
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/pamrel.mp3]pamrel[/url] n. "writing"; [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/pamrelsi.mp3]pamrel si[/url] for "to write"
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/tutan.mp3]tutan[/url] n. "male (person)"
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/n%c3%acayoeng.mp3]nìayoeng[/url] adv. "like us, as we do" (pronounced as nayweng).
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/n%c3%actam.mp3]nìtam[/url] adv. "enough" (after an adjective)
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/%c3%a4ie.mp3]äie[/url] n. "vision" (spiritual)
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/yol.mp3]yol[/url] adj. NOTE NOTE NOTE — the definition of this given in the ASG is backwards! This means "short (of time)".
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/sran.mp3]sran[/url] conv. "yeah," a shortened version of srane
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/weyn.mp3]weyn[/url] v. "draw, illustrate"
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/f%c3%actrr.mp3]fìtrr[/url] adv. "today"
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/fratrr.mp3]fratrr[/url] adv. "every day"
msg=145379 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 07:09:18 | u=1120
Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks
roger
The Wiktionary appendix has now been added to Wikibooks Na'vi: [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Na%27vi-English_dictionary]http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Na%27vi-English_dictionary[/url]. A copy of the appendix remains at WP, but is not as up-to-date as the WB version, which has all the words Wm and I have released over the last few days and will be updated w any new words, whereas I don't know if WT will continue to be updated. WB does not have proper names, except for Na'vi and Eywa, as their stress has not been confirmed, nor does it have the various plant names, and won't unless Paul releases them directly. That is, apart from presumed short plural forms, which have been added in even if not attested, and presumed case forms of the pronouns, WB is strictly Frommerian, and no longer relies on the Survival Guide or game for anything, apart from a few illustrations from the songs in the SG (which are Frommerian).
It and Taronyu's dict will be cross-checked over the next few days, which should hopefully catch any errors which have crept into either.
msg=145554 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 13:00:53 | u=132
Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks
Taronyu
I am always in awe of this list. It seems so much more complete than mine. Well done, smuk.
msg=146404 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 21:36:00 | u=631
Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Impressive, I have to say that!!!
Can you explain your choice of ordering the words in that way?
k and h I get because they are somewhat related via lenition ... but putting the vowls and glottal stop together?
msg=146538 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 23:31:01 | u=984
Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks
okrìsti
[font=Book Antiqua]
As you can see in that [url=http://en.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Special:PrefixIndex&prefix=Na%27vi/NE&namespace=0]sub page listing[/url], there are subdivisions for the wordlists made based on the pronunciation.| [font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEdental]dental[/url] | [font=Book Antiqua]s, t, tx, ts (c) |
| [font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NElabial]labial[/url] | [font=Book Antiqua]f, p, px |
| [font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEliquid]liquid[/url] | [font=Book Antiqua]l, r |
| [font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEnasal]nasal[/url] | [font=Book Antiqua]m, n, ng (g) |
| [font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEvelar]velar[/url] | [font=Book Antiqua]h, k, kx |
| [font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEvoiced]voiced[/url] | [font=Book Antiqua]v, w, y, z |
| [font=Book Antiqua][url=http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na'vi/NEvowel]vowel[/url] | [font=Book Antiqua]’, a, ä, e, i, ì, o, u |
msg=146544 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 23:34:16 | u=54
Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks
Tiger
But ' isn't a vowel. Some may not consider it a consonant either, but grouping it with vowels isn't terribly correct.
msg=146589 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-17 00:01:52 | u=132
Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks
Taronyu
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6794.msg146544#msg146544 date=1268782456]
But ' isn't a vowel. Some may not consider it a consonant either, but grouping it with vowels isn't terribly correct.
[/quote]
I completely agree, but would go further. The glottal stop is a stop, just the same as t, k, p. Those subdivisions don't make the most sense: why separate out the voiced ones like that? Put the glottal stops with the velars, if you must, but not with the vowels.
msg=146851 | topic=6794 | board=99 | time=2010-03-17 06:44:45 | u=1120
Re: Wiktionary appendix now at Wikibooks
roger
I had to divide up the dictionary because of the limitations of Wikibooks: it would only display through S even without the recent additions. I could have made each letter a separate page, but IMO it's more useful to keep things together. And the way the templates are currently designed, the link in s.t. like "haryu, short plural of karyu" will only work if haryu and karyu are on the same page. Short plurals of glottal-stop words are vowel initial, so they're on the same page. Likewise k, kx, and h, even though /h/ is not velar. I really don't want to redo the templates (or ask Sebastian Goll to redo them, since he did all the work!), and then go through and update all the links, just because of technical issues at WB which we might be able to get resolved. The names of the pages were only chosen because I had to call them something; the consonants are not classified that way anywhere in the text. If they're too confusing, I can try moving them to s.t. like "glottal series", "velar series", etc. In fact, I think I'll do that now.
Okay, VWYZ are now at "other voiced". Maybe s.o. here can come up w a better name? These are a semi-natural group because they are the most restricted consonants: They cannot occur at the end of a syllable and yet cannot initiate clusters at the beginning either. Plus they retain alphabetic order, and so are intuitive as a group that way.
msg=145399 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 08:13:40 | u=664
A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Keyltstxatsmen
Small update!
Hì'ia fmawn!From Prof. Frommer comes a few words that will hopefully help us know better how to use <awn>. "Nìawnomum" is not new, but I think I will put it here too.
Ta Karyu Pawl zola'u hola aylì'u a ngian srung sayi fte awngal tslivam nì'ul fyat a fkol sar <awn>it. "Nìawnomum" ke lu mip slä oel fpìl futa fìtsengmì yìyem fì'ut kop nìawnomum | as you know, as is known | ADV
nìzawnong (nì + z<awn>ong) | safely | ADV
*NEW* ftawnemkrr (ft<awn>em + krr) | past | N
*NEW* I am really excited by "ftawnemkrr" (good guess omängum fra'uti!), but I am not sure how "to pass by" can be used passively on "time". Maybe roger or wm can help me to understand it. :)
Oeti "ftawnemkrr"il 'eykefu nitram nìtxan (sìlstana säfpìl ma omängum fra'uti!), slä ke law oeru fya a fko tsun "ftem"it sivar [desc=action-receiving-ly? :P]*[/desc]nìkemtusel hu "krr". Kxawm roger fu wm tsun srung sivi oeru fte tslivam fìlì'ut. :)-Keyl
msg=145405 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 08:28:10 | u=3523
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Unil akxawng
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6797.msg145399#msg145399 date=1268727220]
I am really excited by "ftawnemkrr" (good guess omängum fra'uti!), but I am not sure how "to pass by" can be used passively on "time". [/quote]
Probably the Na'vi have a bit different concept of time? For them, perhaps, the time doesn't "go", but, rather, they move through it (and pass it by). From this point of view, the past seen as a "time [that we have] passed by" and, therefore, passive participle infix, seem logical.
Just my speculation.
msg=145419 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 08:51:47 | u=664
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Unil Akawng link=topic=6797.msg145405#msg145405 date=1268728090]
Probably the Na'vi have a bit different concept of time? For them, perhaps, the time doesn't "go", but, rather, they move through it (and pass it by). From this point of view, the past seen as a "time [that we have] passed by" and, therefore, passive participle infix, seem logical.
[/quote]
Nice! I like it. I had been thinking something similar, but it's nice to hear it from someone else.
Txantsan! Fì'u oeru prrte' lu. Oel fparmìl 'uot tengfya nga, slä oel sterawm tsat ta tuteo a fìkem lu lefpom.
-Keyl
msg=145458 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:07:46 | u=3523
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Unil akxawng
I wonder if, the above posts considered, one could say "Oel ftamem krrit a ...", meaning "[In my past] there was a time when ..."?
msg=145461 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:12:18 | u=631
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Plumps83
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6797.msg145399#msg145399 date=1268727220]
Small update!
Hì'ia fmawn!From Prof. Frommer comes a few words that will hopefully help us know better how to use <awn>. "Nìawnomum" is not new, but I think I will put it here too.
Ta Karyu Pawl zola'u hola aylì'u a ngian srung sayi fte awngal tslivam nì'ul fyat a fkol sar <awn>it. "Nìawnomum" ke lu mip slä oel fpìl futa fìtsengmì yìyem fì'ut kop nìawnomum | as you know, as is known | ADV[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing!!! :)
Well, the components have changed, right? now that we know of the participle infix ‹awn›
it's nì + ‹awn›omum instead of something with ayoe => aw
msg=145468 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 10:39:18 | u=54
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Tiger
Pronunciation samples:
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/n%c3%acawnomum.mp3]nìawnomum[/url] | as you know, as is known | ADV
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/n%c3%aczawnong.mp3]nìzawnong[/url] (nì + z<awn>ong) | safely | ADV *NEW*
[url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/g2/ftawnemkrr.mp3]ftawnemkrr[/url] (ft<awn>em + krr) | past | N *NEW*
msg=145486 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 11:05:57 | u=1120
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
roger
Seems nìzawnong is irregular, as you have it, but AFAIK ftawnemkrr should be stressed on the nem.
msg=145492 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 11:15:17 | u=54
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Tiger
Yeah the stress on nìzawnong was very odd, certainly not what I expected it to be. On ftawnemkrr, I did indeed have a stress (Admittedly not a very pronounced one) on the nem.
msg=145539 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 12:33:56 | u=21
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
wm.annis
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6797.msg145399#msg145399 date=1268727220]I am really excited by "ftawnemkrr" (good guess omängum fra'uti!), but I am not sure how "to pass by" can be used passively on "time". Maybe roger or wm can help me to understand it. :)[/quote]
"Time keeps slippin', slippin', slippin',
into the future!"
The times which we have passed by are in the past.
msg=145566 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 13:15:23 | u=132
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Taronyu
These are great! Thank you. As you know, these will be very helpful. I've added them to my dictionary.
Faylì'u txantsan lu! Irayo. Nìawnomum, faylì'u nìtxan srawnung layu! Oel mì oeyä keltu aylì'uyä yolem faylì'u.
I think I used it right there. I hope, anyway.
Oel fpìl futa oel sìmar fì'ut nìmuiä mì tsatseng. Oe sìlpey...
msg=145676 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 14:59:29 | u=0
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Unil Akawng link=topic=6797.msg145405#msg145405 date=1268728090]
[quote author=Keylstxatsmen link=topic=6797.msg145399#msg145399 date=1268727220]
I am really excited by "ftawnemkrr" (good guess omängum fra'uti!), but I am not sure how "to pass by" can be used passively on "time". [/quote]
Probably the Na'vi have a bit different concept of time? For them, perhaps, the time doesn't "go", but, rather, they move through it (and pass it by). From this point of view, the past seen as a "time [that we have] passed by" and, therefore, passive participle infix, seem logical.
Just my speculation.
[/quote]
Yeah, I agree with Taronyu, that is a nice thought. It, for me, confirms that the Na'vi [desc=The best word I could think of...]passive-agressively[/desc] realize themselves as free-agents.
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6797.msg145539#msg145539 date=1268742836]
"Time keeps slippin', slippin', slippin',
into the future!"
The times which we have passed by are in the past.
[/quote]
Lrrtok si oe.
msg=145722 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 15:25:48 | u=664
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=6797.msg145566#msg145566 date=1268745323]
These are great! Thank you. As you know, these will be very helpful. I've added them to my dictionary.
Faylì'u txantsan lu! Irayo. Nìawnomum, faylì'u nìtxan srawnung layu! Oel mì oeyä keltu aylì'uyä yolem faylì'u.
I think I used it right there. I hope, anyway.
Oel fpìl futa oel sìmar fì'ut nìmuiä mì tsatseng. Oe sìlpey...
[/quote]
Sorry, no infixes in nouns! :) Also, "these words" is the subject of "help" so <us> is probably the best thing to use here.
Oe tsap’alute si, kxanì lu [desc=between-bind-thing? :P]*[/desc]mìkamyìm'u lì'uru ‘uyä! :) Nìteng, "faylì'u" lu leykenyu "srung"ä hu <us> lu kxawm sweya 'u a fko tsun sivar mì fìtseng.
-Keyl
msg=145743 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 15:35:06 | u=132
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Taronyu
No infixes in nouns (my bad), but nouns can take subjects? ;)
Ke mìkamyìm'u mì lì'u 'uyä (oeyä kawng), slä lì'uru 'uyä tsun livu prrnenit?
Nìltsan, oe lu ye'rin nitram. :)
msg=145926 | topic=6797 | board=99 | time=2010-03-16 16:39:30 | u=664
Re: A couple more examples of <awm> (and the word for PAST!)
Keyltstxatsmen
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=6797.msg145743#msg145743 date=1268753706]
No infixes in nouns (my bad), but nouns can take subjects? ;)
Ke mìkamyìm'u mì lì'u 'uyä (oeyä kawng), slä lì'uru 'uyä tsun livu prrnenit?
Nìltsan, oe lu ye'rin nitram. :)
[/quote]
haha, touché!
haha, oeyä kxetse!
msg=148398 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 02:28:43 | u=21
Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
wm.annis
I'm currently working on a very dense grammar summary of what we currently know about Na'vi grammar. Karyu Pawl was kind enough to take a look at it and make a few comments. The most important new pieces of data to come out of those comments are:
"After i, u, and o, it’s just ä, not yä." (the genitive of words ending in vowels)
I had this in the document: "Third person inanimate cases, tsaw, tsal, tsat, tsar(u), gen.?, top.?" His note, "As you can guess, tseyä and tsari, although I haven’t had occasion to use them yet."
msg=148408 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 02:50:43 | u=664
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Keyltstxatsmen
Nice! Are we assuming that all pronouns end in "-eyä"?
Txantsan! Kxawm law awngaru fwa [desc=instead-of-name-words]*[/desc]aylì'u tuptstxoä zene ’ivi’a fa "-eyä" srak?
-Keyl
msg=148410 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 02:54:22 | u=984
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
okrìsti
[font=Book Antiqua]Good to know.
Are there any notes about the case endings like -ti/-t; depending on the following word or taken by personal preferences?
What about pronouns like “whose”, *pesuyä or *tuyäpe edit or even (following Keyls assumption) *peseyä or *teyäpe?
msg=148554 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 08:42:58 | u=401
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Harìghawnu
[quote]"After i, u, and o, it’s just ä, not yä." (the genitive of words ending in vowels)[/quote]
As we know from examples, the other cases do not use their "non-vowel-form" (-ìl, -ur, -it) after i, u and o. So it's just a "genitive speciality". Really a weird case in Na'vi!
By the way: I'm looking forward to see your concise grammar published!
msg=148585 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 10:09:27 | u=2788
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6892.msg148398#msg148398 date=1268879323]
I had this in the document: "Third person inanimate cases, tsaw, tsal, tsat, tsar(u), gen.?, top.?" His note, "As you can guess, tseyä and tsari, although I haven’t had occasion to use them yet."
[/quote]
So where does this leave the stand-alone tsa hinted at [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Indirect_Question_.22Where.22]here[/url]? Is it interchangeable with tsaw? Also, do we know whether *mesa(w), *pxesa(w) and derivatives thereof are kosher?
msg=148592 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 10:35:45 | u=54
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Tiger
Seems like tsa always gets something following it, with a -w if nothing else. I don't see why mesaw/etc wouldn't be allowed.
msg=148703 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 12:43:00 | u=21
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
wm.annis
[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=6892.msg148410#msg148410 date=1268880862]
Are there any notes about the case endings like -ti/-t; depending on the following word or taken by personal preferences?[/quote]
In the document I say that the choice between the long and short endings in the dative and patientive (i.e. -ru vs. -r and -ti vs -t) "appears to be largely a matter of style and euphony." He made no comment on that statement.
msg=148710 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 12:52:49 | u=631
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]And what about the rules which follows what?
Usually the approach was -l -r(u) -t(i) after vowels and -ìl -ur(u) -it after consonants ... now we have forms like
Kem(ì)ri a ngaru prrte' ke lu, Tsakem rä’ä sivi aylaheru.
where Frommer himself states kemri is a possible option... is that only possible after nasals?
msg=148718 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 13:00:11 | u=1120
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
roger
We also have tsawl and tsawt, so the question is whether *tsa exists as an indep. PN.
The new genitive rule appears to occur in the film, with Omatikayoä. I'm going by ear here, and wasn't able to make much sense of it before now.
msg=148828 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 15:13:26 | u=1751
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
blueme
The way I see it is that the POSS ending is universally [desc=our sole vowel-based case ending]-ä[/desc], but when it follows another lax vowel, you insert a [desc=y][j][/desc] to ease pronunciation. Then, what we see here is not really an exception, but the influence of a phonotactic rule.
Of course, as soon as someone points out a single occurrence where there are two lax vowels side by side in a word, my whole theory goes down the drain. :D
(I'm aware that tenseness and laxness are undefined with respect to Na’vi, but [u], [o], and [i] would be considered tense in English, just as [desc=i's lax pair in Na’vi too][ɪ][/desc], [desc=it disappears anyway because of the no-doubled-vowels rule][æ][/desc], and [desc=explicitly defined as such by Frommer in the LL post][ɛ][/desc] would be lax. I think [a] could go either way, so I just assumed it would be lax too.)
msg=148887 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 15:45:58 | u=401
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Harìghawnu
[quote]where there are two lax vowels side by side in a word[/quote]
e. g.
muiä [mu.ˈi.æ] (Adj) proper, fair, right, justified.
niä [ni.ˈæ] (Vtr) grab.
and here are all three of them:
äie [æ.ˈi.ɛ] (N) vision (spiritual sense).
msg=148900 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 15:53:13 | u=1751
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
blueme
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6892.msg148887#msg148887 date=1268927158]
[quote]where there are two lax vowels side by side in a word[/quote]
e. g.
muiä [mu.ˈi.æ] (Adj) proper, fair, right, justified.
niä [ni.ˈæ] (Vtr) grab.
and here are all three of them:
äie [æ.ˈi.ɛ] (N) vision (spiritual sense).
[/quote]
Not good, because [i] isn't lax. :D
msg=148939 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 16:22:44 | u=401
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Harìghawnu
Oh, sorry, my bad. Well then your rule seems to be hard to beat, maybe with:
Katot taftxu oel nìean nìrim (Weaving Song)
msg=148941 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 16:25:12 | u=1120
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
roger
I just figured it was -ä after high & back vowels (which would cover diphthongs and rr, ll as well) and -yä elsewhere.
msg=149070 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 17:51:30 | u=3552
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
tigermind
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6892.msg148592#msg148592 date=1268908545]
Seems like tsa always gets something following it, with a -w if nothing else. I don't see why mesaw/etc wouldn't be allowed.
[/quote]
Wait, i'm confused. I thought tsaw was the short form of tsa'u--isn't tsa its own thing?
msg=149094 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 18:01:36 | u=54
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Tiger
We've never actually seen "tsa" on it's own from a canon source. Only as a prefix, or with case endings. Not sure on tsaw vs tsa'u.
msg=149104 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 18:04:21 | u=1225
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
neotrekkerz
Have we seen tsaw somewhere? I can't recall.
msg=149548 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 23:13:03 | u=1120
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
roger
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg149070#msg149070 date=1268934690]
I thought tsaw was the short form of tsa'u--isn't tsa its own thing?
[/quote]
Yes, that's right. Tsa just isn't attested without a suffix. Before Wm's addition, we had this:
[quote author=Frommer]
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.
[/quote]
msg=149568 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-18 23:38:05 | u=3552
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
tigermind
[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149548#msg149548 date=1268953983]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg149070#msg149070 date=1268934690]
I thought tsaw was the short form of tsa'u--isn't tsa its own thing?
[/quote]
Yes, that's right. Tsa just isn't attested without a suffix. Before Wm's addition, we had this:
[quote author=Frommer]
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Okay, that makes sense. Irayo, ma tsmukan.
msg=149587 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 00:13:36 | u=1751
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
blueme
[quote author=Frommer]
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.
[/quote]
Since it has been established that diphthong-final words get case endings like consonant-final ones (i.e one that starts with a vowel), I don't understand why these aren't tsawit and tsawìri...
msg=149597 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 00:37:11 | u=1120
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
roger
[quote author=tsrräfkxätu link=topic=6892.msg149587#msg149587 date=1268957616]
Since it has been established that diphthong-final words get case endings like consonant-final ones (i.e one that starts with a vowel), I don't understand why these aren't tsawit and tsawìri...
[/quote]
Except that it hasn't been established. That was just the simplest predictive explanation that fit the forms known at the time. But now we also have kemri as an alt to kemìri.
msg=149603 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 00:41:39 | u=1751
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
blueme
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6892.msg149094#msg149094 date=1268935296]
We've never actually seen "tsa" on it's own from a canon source. Only as a prefix, or with case endings. Not sure on tsaw vs tsa'u.
[/quote]
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#February_16_2010_Combo]We kinda have.[/url]
[quote=Frommer]For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.[/quote]
Here, he refers to tsa as a standalone word (not a prefix), and we see it used with a postpositional affix (and not a case ending.)
[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg148941#msg148941 date=1268929512]
I just figured it was -ä after high & back vowels (which would cover diphthongs and rr, ll as well) and -yä elsewhere.
[/quote]
[ɪ] is also high, so this might not work, unless there are no nouns ending in an ì, which would explain why F didn't mention it.
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6892.msg148939#msg148939 date=1268929364]
Oh, sorry, my bad. Well then your rule seems to be hard to beat, maybe with:
Katot taftxu oel nìean nìrim (Weaving Song)[/quote]
You managed neatly, though. :D Had I been right, this would be *nìyean. I could still work around it, but creating complicated phonotactics to explain an few simple exceptions just doesn't seem to be worth it. :D
msg=149632 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 01:15:41 | u=21
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
wm.annis
[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149597#msg149597 date=1268959031]Except that it hasn't been established. That was just the simplest predictive explanation that fit the forms known at the time. But now we also have kemri as an alt to kemìri. [/quote]
And it's really not clear what motivates different endings for words ending in consonants anyway — no rules of phonotactics are broken if you cram any ol' ending onto any ol' word. This puzzled me way back when we had only a few Na'vi sentences. In particular, fìskxawngìri. The word fìskxawngri is also legal (according to the sound rules). So why do different sorts of nouns get different sorts of endings? I assume some prosodic consideration is in play, but I don't know for sure.
msg=149807 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 05:35:25 | u=1120
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
roger
ì isn't high, but only almost high. But we have a problem here, because -yä is also attested after i, for example in slu Na'viyä hapxì in Jake's dialog. Of course, it is Jake, and there are other discrepancies there, such as eu for ew, but there's also Utral Aymokriyä in Paul's current vocab spreadsheet.
msg=149921 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 10:49:08 | u=1120
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
roger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=6892.msg149632#msg149632 date=1268961341]
[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149597#msg149597 date=1268959031]Except that it hasn't been established. That was just the simplest predictive explanation that fit the forms known at the time. But now we also have kemri as an alt to kemìri. [/quote]
And it's really not clear what motivates different endings for words ending in consonants anyway — no rules of phonotactics are broken if you cram any ol' ending onto any ol' word. This puzzled me way back when we had only a few Na'vi sentences. In particular, fìskxawngìri. The word fìskxawngri is also legal (according to the sound rules). So why do different sorts of nouns get different sorts of endings? I assume some prosodic consideration is in play, but I don't know for sure.
[/quote]
I need to take some of that back. As for kem(ì)ri, consider the context: a variant of the Golden Rule. The loss of the ì may be due to meter rather than to a general rule; we see similar things in the songs, where for example sì reduces to s. Whenever I've seen Paul put a letter in parentheses, it's either a known variation (such as -r(u)), or meter is involved.
And what are the only other cases of case-suffix vowel loss after anything other than a simple vowel? Tsawt and tsawri may have these forms because they are colloquial contractions of tsa'ut, tsa'uri, which are perfectly regular with those forms. So that may be the reason for the exception, rather than any free variation.
Do we have any other cases where we cannot predict the case forms based on the final phoneme of the word, orthographic C vs V? Other than the "strong" accusative in invariable -ti ?
As for why they behave this way, grammatical affixes tend to have a much simpler phonology than the lexicon. A strong tendency toward a CVCV structure would not at all be unusual.
msg=149929 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 11:05:34 | u=54
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Tiger
The interesting thing about the golden rule is that if the (ì) were marked because of meter... It would need to be in there to KEEP the meter.
[font=Courier]Kem-(ì)-ri a nga-ru prr-te' ke lu
Tsa-kem rä-'ä si -vi ay -la -he-ru
But the running hypothesis is that kem would require the ìri form, so why would that need to be marked as such? Even odder is that if he DID want to drop it.... He could easily have used the contracted "aylaru" on the second line to keep the meter, admittedly at the loss of a rhyming syllable at the end.
msg=149965 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 11:43:38 | u=1120
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=6892.msg149929#msg149929 date=1268996734]
The interesting thing about the golden rule is that if the (ì) were marked because of meter... It would need to be in there to KEEP the meter.
[/quote]
That's not how I see it:
[font=Courier]Kem-ri-a-nga-ru-prr-te'-ke-lu
Tsa-kem-rä-'ä-si-vi-ay-la-he-ru
= o , , o , o , ? ,
o , , o , o , o , ,
Which works if we stress ke and contract to aylaru as you suggested. It's not very satisfying as verse (I prefer the other version, which is rather elegant), but kemìri would add an extra syllable, making it o , , , o in the first line.
msg=150053 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 13:03:33 | u=132
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Taronyu
So, do we have any cases of o -> e \\ _yä?
msg=150086 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 13:33:50 | u=54
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Tiger
You mean besides "Oeri ta peyä fahew akewong ontu teya längu"?
msg=150115 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 13:52:01 | u=401
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Harìghawnu
[quote]So, do we have any cases of o -> e \\ _yä?[/quote]
holpxay ayzekwäyä feyä "the number of their fingers"
[url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Some_Conjunctions_and_Adverbs]http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Some_Conjunctions_and_Adverbs[/url]
msg=150681 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 19:57:56 | u=0
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149807#msg149807 date=1268976925]
ì isn't high, but only almost high. But we have a problem here, because -yä is also attested after i, for example in slu Na'viyä hapxì in Jake's dialog. Of course, it is Jake, and there are other discrepancies there, such as eu for ew, but there's also Utral Aymokriyä in Paul's current vocab spreadsheet.
[/quote]
I assume that you posting this means that you've sat upon your seat and, hopefully with no one else around to wonder if you're "having a moment," rendered these sounds to yourself. If so, I also assume that you think the glide from {i} to [{] is distinct in sound from {i} to [j{]. Personally, I don't hear it, if I don't try to...
Essentially, I feel that the canon CAN be debated as to whether the glide ([j]) is actually there or not. We've not had any examples, as far as I know, that really hindge on whether of not the /y/ is there in situations like you've listed.
msg=150830 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 22:03:39 | u=3552
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
tigermind
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6892.msg150681#msg150681 date=1269028676]
[quote author=roger link=topic=6892.msg149807#msg149807 date=1268976925]
ì isn't high, but only almost high. But we have a problem here, because -yä is also attested after i, for example in slu Na'viyä hapxì in Jake's dialog. Of course, it is Jake, and there are other discrepancies there, such as eu for ew, but there's also Utral Aymokriyä in Paul's current vocab spreadsheet.
[/quote]
I assume that you posting this means that you've sat upon your seat and, hopefully with no one else around to wonder if you're "having a moment," rendered these sounds to yourself. If so, I also assume that you think the glide from {i} to [{] is distinct in sound from {i} to [j{]. Personally, I don't hear it, if I don't try to...
Essentially, I feel that the canon CAN be debated as to whether the glide ([j]) is actually there or not. We've not had any examples, as far as I know, that really hindge on whether of not the /y/ is there in situations like you've listed.
[/quote]
I don't know if this makes any difference, but maybe we see this "long" genitive attaching to Na'vi and Aymokri because these are parts of "proper nouns"?
msg=150927 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 23:13:36 | u=1120
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
roger
Hey, I got an answer on this one!
[quote author=Frommer]As you've said, there's not much difference between -iä and -iyä (perhaps no difference at all), so it's essentially a spelling question.
Here's what's out there:
-iä
1. muiä (LEXICON)
2. niä (LEXICON)
3. menariä (VIDEO GAME)
(Fmawnit menariä ke tsun oe spivaw. 'I can't believe what I'm seeing with my eyes.')
-iyä
4. Na'viyä (SCRIPT)
5. Aymokriyä (LEXICON, SCRIPT)
6. ritiyä (VIDEO GAME)
1 and 2 are roots, so they shouldn't be a problem. 3 through 6 are genitive forms. So if the official spelling is -iyä, the only outlier is 3, which I'll change.
Bottom line: the genitive for bases ending in -i is -yä. Apologies for going back and forth on this.
One more inconsistency:
For bases in -a, the gen. was -yä in 3 cases (tompayä, Eywayä, tìska'ayä), but there was also Omatikayaä. I feel comfortable leaving that last word alone, as an exceptional form: *Omatikayayä doesn't seem stable--I can see yayä > yaä.[/quote]
msg=150986 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 00:46:00 | u=0
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg150830#msg150830 date=1269036219]
I don't know if this makes any difference, but maybe we see this "long" genitive attaching to Na'vi and Aymokri because these are parts of "proper nouns"?
[/quote]
Sure, but not all proper nouns will end in a vowel... /yä/ can't attach to consonants.
msg=151618 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 16:55:27 | u=3552
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
tigermind
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6892.msg150986#msg150986 date=1269045960]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg150830#msg150830 date=1269036219]
I don't know if this makes any difference, but maybe we see this "long" genitive attaching to Na'vi and Aymokri because these are parts of "proper nouns"?
[/quote]
Sure, but not all proper nouns will end in a vowel... /yä/ can't attach to consonants.
[/quote]
Of course, ma smuk. I only meant that maybe there's a rule that proper nouns ending in a vowel always take the long form, instead of sometimes taking the short. But it seems we have an answer from Karyu Pawl, in any case.
msg=151822 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 19:37:15 | u=0
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=6892.msg151618#msg151618 date=1269104127]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=6892.msg150986#msg150986 date=1269045960]
Sure, but not all proper nouns will end in a vowel... /yä/ can't attach to consonants.
[/quote]
Of course, ma smuk. I only meant that maybe there's a rule that proper nouns ending in a vowel always take the long form, instead of sometimes taking the short. But it seems we have an answer from Karyu Pawl, in any case.
[/quote]
Sorry. I figure you knew that... :)
msg=153985 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 14:50:25 | u=1751
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
blueme
[quote author=Frommer]As you've said, there's not much difference between -iä and -iyä (perhaps no difference at all), so it's essentially a spelling question.
Here's what's out there:
-iä
1. muiä (LEXICON)
2. niä (LEXICON)
3. menariä (VIDEO GAME)
(Fmawnit menariä ke tsun oe spivaw. 'I can't believe what I'm seeing with my eyes.')
-iyä
4. Na'viyä (SCRIPT)
5. Aymokriyä (LEXICON, SCRIPT)
6. ritiyä (VIDEO GAME)
1 and 2 are roots, so they shouldn't be a problem. 3 through 6 are genitive forms. So if the official spelling is -iyä, the only outlier is 3, which I'll change.
Bottom line: the genitive for bases ending in -i is -yä. Apologies for going back and forth on this.
One more inconsistency:
For bases in -a, the gen. was -yä in 3 cases (tompayä, Eywayä, tìska'ayä), but there was also Omatikayaä. I feel comfortable leaving that last word alone, as an exceptional form: *Omatikayayä doesn't seem stable--I can see yayä > yaä.[/quote]
So is it -yä again for all V-ending stems? Or...? ???
msg=154019 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 15:10:48 | u=1225
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
neotrekkerz
[quote]Bottom line: the genitive for bases ending in -i is -yä. Apologies for going back and forth on this.[/quote]
I take that to mean the o and u still take only -ä, not -yä
msg=154851 | topic=6892 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 01:00:56 | u=1120
Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
roger
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=6892.msg154019#msg154019 date=1269270648]
[quote]Bottom line: the genitive for bases ending in -i is -yä. Apologies for going back and forth on this.[/quote]
I take that to mean the o and u still take only -ä, not -yä
[/quote]
Correct. And after i it's pretty much just an orthographic convention.
msg=150759 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-19 21:07:58 | u=401
Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki
Harìghawnu
The canon-page doesn't seem to be updated any longer. The last entry there is about the Tag Question, dated March 1. Of course I could update it myself, but my time is limited and I'm quite buisy with the LEP and the updating of our Wiki-Vocabulary. Besides that I'm trying to write a Na'vi-poem in order to enhance the corpus of Na'vi-literature a bit.
So this is a kind request to everyone: If there is new stuff released by K. Pawl known to you, please don't post it just here in the forum somewhere, but also in the wiki-canon! The purpose of the wiki is to collect all things connected to Frommer's Na'vi into one point, where it is easily accessible for everyone. Don't let this idea die ... and don't lean just on the wiki-editors to do all the work. We are as busy as possible, but work is much more efficient, if many people take care of certain aspects and contribute to the wiki.
Besides that: The canon-page got very large ... so we should think about reorganizing it. Maybe we could simply open another one, like "Canon 1 (Dec. 2009 - Feb 2010)", "Canon 2 (Mar 2010 - ...)". Suggestions?
msg=150963 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 00:09:58 | u=21
Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki
wm.annis
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6963.msg150759#msg150759 date=1269032878]Besides that: The canon-page got very large ... so we should think about reorganizing it. Maybe we could simply open another one, like "Canon 1 (Dec. 2009 - Feb 2010)", "Canon 2 (Mar 2010 - ...)". Suggestions?[/quote]
A new arrangement for new Epistles from Karyu Pawl would be a good idea, but I will be very sad if we reorganize the data currently there. There are many, many links from the grammar and vocabulary pages into the existing Corpus and Canon.
msg=151100 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-20 07:50:51 | u=401
Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki
Harìghawnu
[quote]but I will be very sad if we reorganize the data currently there. There are many, many links from the grammar and vocabulary pages into the existing Corpus and Canon.[/quote]
I completely agree. It would be horrible to have to change all the links! So don't touch the existing parts.
How about the newer ones? I'd like to see a new page installed (maybe accessible via a link on top of the existing canon page), named something like "Epistles from Karyu Pawl", and than separate pages accessible from there (not just articles of this page!) grouped by date, e. g. "2010, March - Mai", ...
msg=152291 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-21 06:31:22 | u=4754
Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki
`Eylan Ayfalulukanä
Maybe what to do is set a date for a 'clean break' from the current way of doing things, say April 1st. On that date, a second canon page would begin. This page could be organized completely differently, perhaps containing the contents of the old canon reorganized in a way that is more logical and relevant going forward. From that point on, all the existing links into the old canon would still be valid, but subsequent users could link to either old or new material on the new page.
msg=152307 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-21 07:11:15 | u=401
Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki
Harìghawnu
Good ideas, ma 'eylan.
The only problem I see about this is, that a "more logical" way would include subsections, e. g. "Infixes", "Semantics", etc. And K. Pawl messages often include a mix of all. So the person, who wants to contribute stuff to the wiki, had to split it up and to put it into the different sections etc. I'm afraid, that this "plus-work" would cause the people to do even fewer contributions than they do at all.
Especially in the last two weeks (after the completition of the first round of the LEP) there was obviously much communication with K. Pawl, because here in the forum many snippets about updates were (and are) posted. But none of them found it's way to the wiki. On the one hand, there are more and more postings like "I'm quite sure that this was mentioned by Frommer somewhere, but I can't find it" or "Are there any approved examples for XYZ?", but on the other hand the wiki-canon - a tool, where such problems could be solved easily - is neglected.
Well ... I can't do much more, than kindly ask again all people to shuffle new stuff to the wiki at sight. Since I think, that we can't wait until April (because there's already so much stuff not in the wiki), I'll set up just a new canon-page today and start to transfer forum-stuff to that page myself. Any help is appreciated.
msg=153014 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-21 18:59:10 | u=984
Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki
okrìsti
[font=Book Antiqua]Ehw, I have tried to cover last updates [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=User:Ochristi/Construction/Update_Log/2010-03]here[/url]. Certainly I am aware of the different style compared to the canon.
msg=153320 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-21 22:53:41 | u=4754
Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki
`Eylan Ayfalulukanä
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=6963.msg152307#msg152307 date=1269155475]
Good ideas, ma 'eylan.
The only problem I see about this is, that a "more logical" way would include subsections, e. g. "Infixes", "Semantics", etc. And K. Pawl messages often include a mix of all. So the person, who wants to contribute stuff to the wiki, had to split it up and to put it into the different sections etc. I'm afraid, that this "plus-work" would cause the people to do even fewer contributions than they do at all.[/quote]
Although what you suggest is an *extremely* good idea, it isn't quite what I had in mind. The subdivisions I had envisioned more of a 'interrupted-chronological subdivision, breaking the canon into nantang-sized pieces vs the existing palulukan-sized piece. Or, just start a second section (which I think is what you are doing, correct me if I am wrong) page. When full, start a third page, etc.
It would be a worthy project for someone to sort through all the Frommerian posts, and build an index of the content. Since the canon pages are essentially static, these pages could be quite permanent, since the links into the canon would not change with time. This would not have to be you doing this, but someone who is interested, and who has tthe time to do it. (This does not include me right now!)
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu]Especially in the last two weeks (after the completition of the first round of the LEP) there was obviously much communication with K. Pawl, because here in the forum many snippets about updates were (and are) posted. But none of them found it's way to the wiki. On the one hand, there are more and more postings like "I'm quite sure that this was mentioned by Frommer somewhere, but I can't find it" or "Are there any approved examples for XYZ?", but on the other hand the wiki-canon - a tool, where such problems could be solved easily - is neglected.
Well ... I can't do much more, than kindly ask again all people to shuffle new stuff to the wiki at sight. Since I think, that we can't wait until April (because there's already so much stuff not in the wiki), I'll set up just a new canon-page today and start to transfer forum-stuff to that page myself. Any help is appreciated.[/quote]
First of all, I want to give you a long-overdue Irayo for your work on the LEP. While a lot of debate was going on on what should and what shouldn't make the list, you were just quietly moving stuff over without complaining :) So, it is OK to move stuff over to the wiki-canon without being a moderator, etc.? I would like to help (when I have time), but don't want to step on any toes, stick my nose where it doesn't belong and risk 'getting my queue cut off'!
msg=153720 | topic=6963 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 08:31:58 | u=401
Re: Please, don't forget about the canon-wiki
Harìghawnu
[quote]breaking the canon into nantang-sized pieces vs the existing palulukan-sized piece. [/quote]
;D
[quote]Or, just start a second section (which I think is what you are doing, correct me if I am wrong) page. When full, start a third page, etc.[/quote]
That's how I did it now. There's a link in the head of the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]Canon-Page[/url] now, which guides to a page opened to be filled with the information we get from March until June.
[quote]index of the content.[/quote]
Well, this would be a really nice "plus". But to have all updates collected into the canon-page is already a great help itself.
[quote]So, it is OK to move stuff over to the wiki-canon without being a moderator, etc.? [/quote]
Yes, it is. Just get your bearings looking at the way it is done already, e. g. [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon/2010/March-June]here[/url]. It's no big deal with the canon, not much formatting or alike. (It's different with some other sections of the wiki, e. g. the vocabulary, where there is something like a non-published "style guide" to observe, in order to maintain consistency.) So if you have some time to contribute to the canon-wiki, this is appreciated very much. Irayo!
msg=153517 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 02:03:08 | u=21
Why is this night...
wm.annis
Frommer did a translation of the traditional Seder questions: [url=http://whyisthisnight.com/addl-more.html#na%27vi]Fìtxon na ton alahe nìwotx pelun ke lu teng?[/url]
There's a little vocab we can extract from this. There is also audio!
msg=153533 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 02:24:18 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
Fancy!
Words I picked up and contextually guessed meanings (Ignoring loan words for the moment):
fkxen - n. Vegetable (food)
syä'ä - adj. Bitter
yemfpay si - v. Dip into liquid
yemfpay - n. Dipping, immersion (Into a liquid)
keng - adv. Even (Ex. Didn't even try)
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
*-lo - Multplicative number suffix (Once, twice, thrice, etc)
heyn - v. Sit
nìpxim - adv. Erectly, uprightly
pxim - adj. Erect, upright
tuvon - v. Lean
nìfya'o - adv. In a manner
letrrtrr - adj. Ordinary
nì'eoio - adv. Ceremoniously
'eoio - adj. Cerimonious
rìk - n. Leaf
lerìk - adj. Leafy
Edit: Fixed and verified correct now, hu irayo Pawlur.
msg=153569 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 02:55:55 | u=3051
Re: Why is this night...
Goplat
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
[/quote]
In [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/[/url] it was said that "once" was 'awlie... ma Roger, tsun nga sleykivu law fìtxelet srak? :)
msg=153577 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 03:04:49 | u=1225
Re: Why is this night...
neotrekkerz
I'll also add to the vocab list:
lerìk leafy
*rìk leaf
msg=153586 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 03:14:55 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
Oh right, I missed that one.
[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=7120.msg153569#msg153569 date=1269226555]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
[/quote]
In [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/[/url] it was said that "once" was 'awlie... ma Roger, tsun nga sleykivu law fìtxelet srak? :)
[/quote]That is certainly a head scratcher. They bot are l(vowels) but lie vs lo... Perhaps a subtle difference in meaning, or they -lo is adjective forms? Though the usage there seems fairly adverbial...
msg=153589 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 03:20:35 | u=0
Re: Why is this night...
Swoka Swizaw
Wow. How diverse a collection of words. Frommer does not disappoint, or fail to not surprise with what he has next. And, Taronyu isn't here yet...don't I feel ahead of the game. :P
BTW, I like Hebrew as much as the next tute, but "hamets," "matsa?" I chuckled.
msg=153597 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 03:42:41 | u=3552
Re: Why is this night...
tigermind
letrrtrr
So, this would be an example of, erm, reduplication? [desc=still not a linguist!]Is that what it's called[/desc]?
Edit:
[quote]
nì'eoio - adv. Ceremoniously
*'eoio - n. Ceremony
[/quote]
Ma tsmukan, it says at the bottom of the page that eoio is "ceremonious" (adj.)
msg=153603 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 04:13:54 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
At the bottom of what page?
msg=153604 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 04:16:11 | u=1317
Re: Why is this night...
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
He means at the bottom of the Na'vi section I think.
msg=153609 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 04:25:27 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
That.... was not there when I viewed it first. Handy! I reloaded and they magically appeared!
msg=153631 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 05:07:29 | u=3552
Re: Why is this night...
tigermind
[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=7120.msg153604#msg153604 date=1269231371]
He means at the bottom of the Na'vi section I think.
[/quote]
Fi'u oeru ke tsranten nìtxan, slä tute oe lu =P
msg=153679 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 06:35:23 | u=1120
Re: Why is this night...
roger
[quote author=Kä'eng link=topic=7120.msg153569#msg153569 date=1269226555]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
[/quote]
In [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/minor-updates-anticipated-confirmations/[/url] it was said that "once" was 'awlie... ma Roger, tsun nga sleykivu law fìtxelet srak? :)
[/quote]
All I know is the gloss: 'awlie = "once". We don't have an example in context. English "once" has various uses.
msg=153681 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 06:36:15 | u=1120
Re: Why is this night...
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
syä'ä - adj. Bitter
yemfpay si - v. Dip into liquid (yemfpay - n. ?)
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
...
[/quote]
Where are you getting the stress from?
msg=153684 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 06:43:35 | u=1225
Re: Why is this night...
neotrekkerz
I just noticed 'awlie isn't in Taronyu's dictionary.
msg=153685 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 06:44:15 | u=984
Re: Why is this night...
okrìsti
[quote author=roger link=topic=7120.msg153679#msg153679 date=1269239723]All I know is the gloss: 'awlie = "once". We don't have an example in context. English "once" has various uses.[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]Besides other languages form multiplicative numerals differently for adverbial and adjective usage.
msg=153698 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 07:07:18 | u=1120
Re: Why is this night...
roger
[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=7120.msg153685#msg153685 date=1269240255]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7120.msg153679#msg153679 date=1269239723]All I know is the gloss: 'awlie = "once". We don't have an example in context. English "once" has various uses.[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]Besides other languages form multiplicative numerals differently for adverbial and adjective usage.
[/quote]
But both are adverbial: 'awlie glossed ADV, and 'awlo used that way.
msg=153700 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 07:09:51 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
[quote author=roger link=topic=7120.msg153681#msg153681 date=1269239775]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]
syä'ä - adj. Bitter
yemfpay si - v. Dip into liquid (yemfpay - n. ?)
'awlo - adv. Once
melo - adv. Twice
...
[/quote]
Where are you getting the stress from?
[/quote]Oeyä memikyun.
The only one of those I'm not sure of is yemfpay, because the first time he says it, it's a little ambiguous, but the second time it's pretty clearly stressed second syllable.
msg=153810 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 12:05:19 | u=631
Re: Why is this night...
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]yemfpay is indeed very odd - could that be "a plunge" ? "the dipping" - very unusual to have a verb-noun compound to create the verb with a si-construction
Could the f be the same from tafkip / fkip ?
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg153533#msg153533 date=1269224658]nì'eoio - adv. Ceremoniously
'eoio - adj. Cerimonious[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Did you notice that the apostrophe is not there in the explanations? Is this an error in the transcription?
msg=153988 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 14:51:43 | u=401
Re: Why is this night...
Harìghawnu
[quote]letrrtrr
So, this would be an example of, erm, reduplication? [/quote]
Wow! Maybe this is the solution of my [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/my-dictionary/msg151096/#msg151096]daily-(täglich)-vs.-daily-(alltäglich)-problem[/url]. So maybe, "letrr" is more about time (day by day), while "letrrtrr" is more about routine.
Besides that, we got some new words ... I'd better go and put them into the wiki-vocabulary.
msg=154145 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 16:34:01 | u=21
Re: Why is this night...
wm.annis
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7120.msg153597#msg153597 date=1269229361]
letrrtrr
So, this would be an example of, erm, reduplication? [/quote]
It would, indeed.
msg=154448 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:02:33 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7120.msg153810#msg153810 date=1269259519]
[font=Garamond]Did you notice that the apostrophe is not there in the explanations? Is this an error in the transcription?
[/quote]I did notice... But we have no example of a glottal stop being added with nì... Then again we also have no examples of nì on a word starting with e... For now I'm assuming it is a transcription thing, but that's something else to add to our list of questions.
msg=154485 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:34:15 | u=3051
Re: Why is this night...
Goplat
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg154448#msg154448 date=1269284553]Then again we also have no examples of nì on a word starting with e...[/quote]Sure we do: from the Weaving Song, Katot täftxu oel, nìean nìrim.
msg=154491 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:40:21 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
Blast you weaving song! *shakes fist* I never think to check that one and it's not posted online for copyright reasons.
msg=154532 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:07:42 | u=401
Re: Why is this night...
Harìghawnu
[quote]it's not posted online for copyright reasons.[/quote]
Since it's one of our major sources it's maybe completely given in the [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Vocabulary]Wiki Vocabulary[/url] in little snippets. Using the browser's search function (nìe...) delivers of course "nìean" too.
msg=154535 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:08:59 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
I made the mistake of relying on the formal vocabulary list rather than derived words used in various sources. I keep forgetting not all derivations are formally defined.
msg=154571 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:38:08 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
Ok I think that is the quickest response I've gotten to a question by far. I had the stress on yemfpay wrong (See, told you it was the one I was not sure about), but Frommer confirmed the rest were correct. The list of eoio was indeed a mistake and it should have been 'eoio. Yemfpay si is the verb for dipping, yemfpay is a noun for dipping or immersion.
msg=154661 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:30:31 | u=21
Re: Why is this night...
wm.annis
One of the most striking grammatical features of this new bit of Frommerian corpus is a compound adverbial phrase: nìfya'o letrrtrr Glossed "in-manner ordinary." The adverbial prefix encompasses not just fya'o, but the phrase fya'o letrrtrr.
msg=154665 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:32:20 | u=631
Re: Why is this night...
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]So, it's yemfpay ? Could you change that in your original post to avoid confusion? Irayo :) and thanks for sharing
msg=154854 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 01:04:45 | u=1120
Re: Why is this night...
roger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7120.msg154661#msg154661 date=1269293431]
One of the most striking grammatical features of this new bit of Frommerian corpus is a compound adverbial phrase: nìfya'o letrrtrr Glossed "in-manner ordinary." The adverbial prefix encompasses not just fya'o, but the phrase fya'o letrrtrr.
[/quote]
Yes, I thought that was worth a note too.
msg=154875 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 02:07:00 | u=21
Re: Why is this night...
wm.annis
[quote author=roger link=topic=7120.msg154854#msg154854 date=1269306285]Yes, I thought that was worth a note too. [/quote]
And he comments:
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]Quick comment re "nìfya'o letrrtrr":
I gather this has caused some consternation. If so, that's not surprising, since on the surface it looks as if an adjective as modifying an adverb. As you've realized, the bracketing is really nì-[fya'o letrrtrr], so it's not as weird as it seems--provided, as you say, you accept that an affix can be applied to a phrase. (I was trying without success to think of places that English does that, along the lines of "He answered very in-your-facely" or "That was an out-of-the-boxish solution.")
But it's a useful construction, since it's completely productive: if you can modify fya'o with an adjective, you can turn that phrase into a manner adverbial with nìfya'o. True, there is overlap between one-word adverbs and these constructions, but that's not unusual: in English we can say "She spoke clearly" or "She spoke in a clear way." (For the first sentence, though, nìlaw is ambiguous just as "clearly" is in English: Poe poltxe nìlaw means either "She spoke clearly" or "Clearly, she spoke." However, Poe poltxe nìfya'o alaw can only mean "She spoke clearly.")
With the limited lexicon we currently have, it's natural for people to try to use the derivational affixes freely to fill gaps. But in fact they aren't freely productive, which is why forms with tì-, sä-, le-, and nì- need to be listed in the lexicon. It's not a given that any particular root can take these affixes, and even when the form exists, the meaning won't necessarily be predictable. (E.g. tìrol means 'song' rather than 'singing.' And in English, "ordinarily" does not mean "in an ordinary manner.") But you don't have that problem with a nìfya'o adverbial--the process is always productive and always interpreted as a manner adverbial.
[/quote]
msg=154897 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 03:11:21 | u=3552
Re: Why is this night...
tigermind
Tewti, Karyu Pawl's comment just exploded my brain a little.
msg=154922 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 03:33:38 | u=54
Re: Why is this night...
Tiger
So if the prefix applies to the phrase.... *mad scientist laugh*
Oel ngati tse'a nìfya'o a tsere'a nantangìl yerikit.
msg=154938 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 03:45:25 | u=1225
Re: Why is this night...
neotrekkerz
Or you could translate the lyrics to "I need you" by [desc=Don't ask. I have no idea, it just popped into my head]America[/desc]: Oel kin ngati nìfya'o a syulangìl kin tompat.
msg=154984 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 04:44:50 | u=1120
Re: Why is this night...
roger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7120.msg154922#msg154922 date=1269315218]
So if the prefix applies to the phrase....
[/quote]
Yes, it's actually a clitic, not an affix, like 's in English.
msg=156226 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 20:32:02 | u=132
Re: Why is this night...
Taronyu
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7120.msg153589#msg153589 date=1269228035]
Taronyu isn't here yet...don't I feel ahead of the game. :P[/quote]
Heh. I'm not as on top of the ball as you think I am.
msg=156303 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 20:58:27 | u=0
Re: Why is this night...
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7120.msg156226#msg156226 date=1269462722]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7120.msg153589#msg153589 date=1269228035]
Taronyu isn't here yet...don't I feel ahead of the game. :P[/quote]
Heh. I'm not as on top of the ball as you think I am.
[/quote]
You've kept up an almost daily updated dictionary of a [desc=I say "faux," while loving Na'vi]faux[/desc] language, and you think you're not on the ball? You're more on the ball than you think I ought not to think... ;)
msg=163626 | topic=7120 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 12:53:16 | u=1643
Re: Why is this night...
Rain
I just get this warm, fuzzy, happy feeling every time I stumble across stuff like this that adds to and helps my own vocabulary.
msg=154292 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 17:48:30 | u=430
A long answer to a quick question
TehMightyPirate
So, in a spur of the moment thing I e-mailed Frommer about 2 hours ago with a "quick question" on the pronunciation of "oe" and it's apparent two forms "oh-eh" (two syllables) and "weh" (one syllable). I just got this:
[quote author=Paul Frommer][desc=Thanks for your question.]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/desc]
Yes, you're right: the "oe" element in personal pronouns is sometimes pronounced in two syllables ("oh-eh") and sometimes one ("weh").
The general rule is that all vowels in a word are pronounced separately. The most extreme of example of this (so far!) is meoauniaea, which has 8 distinct syllables, all gliding smoothly from one to another.
But with the "oe" words, which are among the most common in the language, it's probable that more compact pronunciations evolved. People contract and shorten words all the time, especially the ones they use most frequently. In English, for example, "I am" is usually "I'm" in casual speech: two syllables have become one. The difference is that in English we change the spelling and punctuation to go along with the streamlined pronunciation while in Na'vi we don't. But the principle is the same.
So in careful, formal speech, "oeru" might be 3 full syllables. (And note that in honorific style, it's definitely 3: oheru.) But in ordinary conversation, "oeru" is normally "weh-ru."
The rule for these pronouns is as follows:
If the "oe" element comes at the end of the word, pronounce the two vowels separately; otherwise pronounce them as "weh." So oe and moe have two syllables and ayoe has three, but oel has one. However, in the dual and trial forms prefixed with m and px respectively, the vowels of oe are ALWAYS pronounced separately. So, for example, oel is one syllable but moel and pxoel are two.
[desc=I hope that this explanation is clear to you now.]Sìlpey oe tsnì fìtìoeyktìng* law livu ngaru set.[/desc]
[desc=Good day to you.]Trr lefpom livu ngar.[/desc]
ta P.
*Tìoeyktìng = explanation, which contains the root oeyk 'cause' -- two syllables, stressed on the second: o.EYK. So tìoeyktìng should have four syllables: tì.o.EYK.tìng. I bet, though, that in casual speech on Pandora it's pronounced in three, as if it were tì.WEYK.tìng. Guess we'll need a native informant to find out for sure! :-)[/quote]
Woohoo, a ton of info and a 2 hour turn around time. Karyu Pawl lu txantsan! :)
(Translation in the email by me)
msg=154303 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 17:57:41 | u=1719
Re: A long answer to a quick question
Konshu
Thats for getting that clarified for us! Great to see we have another rule in place.
msg=154315 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 18:03:40 | u=1225
Re: A long answer to a quick question
neotrekkerz
I love how there is always more depth to the language when he responds like this. I never thought about how "oe" was pronounced in oel vs. moe.
Oh, so as not to double post, I'll include this note in the next NIAN update.
Ma Ftiafpi, you should ask him more questions if he gets back to you this fast. :)
msg=154343 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 18:17:49 | u=430
Re: A long answer to a quick question
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7155.msg154315#msg154315 date=1269281020]
I love how there is always more depth to the language when he responds like this. I never thought about how "oe" was pronounced in oel vs. moe.
Oh, so as not to double post, I'll include this note in the next NIAN update.
Ma Ftiafpi, you should ask him more questions if he gets back to you this fast. :)
[/quote]
I've vowed not to abuse my powers :P
I imagine it was a fluke or something, or maybe we should always preface our questions with the adjective "quick" to lure him in :)
msg=154354 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 18:24:01 | u=21
Re: A long answer to a quick question
wm.annis
Yesterday he expressed an interest in getting grammar questions bundled up by topic, sort of like we have done for the LEP. So, phonology questions, pronoun questions, etc., etc. Some of the questions he will be able to answer quickly, some will required more thinking.
A further pronoun refinement from that very email:
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]Ngey 'upxareri irayo. (As you probably know, dropping the -ä on the genitive pronouns is colloquial and informal.)[/quote]
msg=154414 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 18:46:18 | u=54
Re: A long answer to a quick question
Tiger
Perhaps it's time to revisit the "Working together" concept?
msg=154459 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:12:01 | u=430
Re: A long answer to a quick question
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7155.msg154414#msg154414 date=1269283578]
Perhaps it's time to revisit the "Working together" concept?
[/quote]
Indeed. As I said, it was a spur of the moment thing, I totally support the combined questions thing.
msg=154495 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:42:17 | u=2788
Re: A long answer to a quick question
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Paul Frommer]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]
Double typo or new form?
msg=154509 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:51:08 | u=134
Re: A long answer to a quick question
vidvamp01
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7155.msg154495#msg154495 date=1269286937]
[quote author=Paul Frommer]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]
Double typo or new form?
[/quote]
That might be the discourse topic suffix?
Which implies
-ìri clause defined topic
-erì discourse defined topic
-?? subject defined topic maybe still needed?
msg=154537 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:09:38 | u=1620
Re: A long answer to a quick question
dontbugme
Txantsana fmawn
tewti, another refinement of the language.
i cant say how much i cherish that kind of contact.
msg=154544 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:16:10 | u=430
Re: A long answer to a quick question
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=Txur’Itan link=topic=7155.msg154509#msg154509 date=1269287468]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7155.msg154495#msg154495 date=1269286937]
[quote author=Paul Frommer]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]
Double typo or new form?
[/quote]
That might be the discourse topic suffix?
Which implies
-ìri clause defined topic
-erì discourse defined topic
-?? subject defined topic maybe still needed?
[/quote]
Or perhaps pawm can be pawm(e)? Naw, nevermind, that doesn't make must sense as it's a verb. Anyway, I like the thought of having a discourse defined topic a lot though.
Something to add to the combined questions I guess.
msg=154546 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:18:18 | u=54
Re: A long answer to a quick question
Tiger
Since he's used ìri in that situation before, I'm inclined to think typo. (Hey, he's allowed his keyey too!)
Pawme is an interesting thought given Na'vi's love for ignoring "e" at the end of a word, but seeing as how pawm is a verb that seems like it would significantly change the nature of it.
msg=154568 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:35:48 | u=430
Re: A long answer to a quick question
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7155.msg154546#msg154546 date=1269289098]
Pawme is an interesting thought given Na'vi's love for ignoring "e" at the end of a word, but seeing as how pawm is a verb that seems like it would significantly change the nature of it.
[/quote]
That was exactly my thought process. I love how I'm starting to think more and more linguistically about Na'vi. Not just how to use the language but how it was developed and what little subtleties it has.
Anyway, back on topic. I suppose we should add that as a "quick question" into the combined questions thread. Either it's kxeyey (love how you misspelled kxeyey :P) and it has a quick answer or it's not and that's something I would love to find out about.
msg=154572 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:39:16 | u=54
Re: A long answer to a quick question
Tiger
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7155.msg154568#msg154568 date=1269290148]
... (love how you misspelled kxeyey :P) ...
[/quote]And I love how you misinterpreted the plural of kxeyey as my kxeyey. :)
msg=154575 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:41:10 | u=430
Re: A long answer to a quick question
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7155.msg154572#msg154572 date=1269290356]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7155.msg154568#msg154568 date=1269290148]
... (love how you misspelled kxeyey :P) ...
[/quote]And I love how you misinterpreted the plural of kxeyey as my kxeyey. :)
[/quote]
oooo, tricksie you be my precious...
msg=154727 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 22:22:54 | u=1225
Re: A long answer to a quick question
neotrekkerz
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7155.msg154459#msg154459 date=1269285121]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7155.msg154414#msg154414 date=1269283578]
Perhaps it's time to revisit the "Working together" concept?
[/quote]
Indeed. As I said, it was a spur of the moment thing, I totally support the combined questions thing.
[/quote]
Perhaps a "Grammar Expansion" in the child boards of language updates. Time to start typing in colors again?
EDIT: Never mind, just saw combining our efforts II.
msg=154777 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:00:16 | u=21
Re: A long answer to a quick question
wm.annis
Enwikified.
msg=155018 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 05:21:23 | u=1120
Re: A long answer to a quick question
roger
moe, pxoe cannot contract because there is no /mw, pxw/ in Na'vi. That was covered earlier, we just didn't know what conditioned the contraction where it was possible.
msg=155104 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:37:32 | u=1120
Re: A long answer to a quick question
roger
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7155.msg154495#msg154495 date=1269286937]
[quote author=Paul Frommer]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]
Double typo or new form?
[/quote]
Paul said, "Ngaru tìyawr, lu kxeyey. Ngaytxoa. Eyawra lì'u lu tìpawmìri. Sempul lì'fyayä harmahaw."
He does seem to get back to us ASAP when it's a question of a mistake he may have made.
The first phrase is interesting. "tìyawr" is not included in his still-being-released vocab list.
msg=155173 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 10:18:06 | u=631
Re: A long answer to a quick question
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Seems like our often neglected "e" ;) doesn't it?
tì- + eyawr => tìyawr
ngaru tìyawr = you are correct, you are right
msg=155274 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 13:32:24 | u=3552
Re: A long answer to a quick question
tigermind
"Ngaytxoa"?
msg=155307 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:04:08 | u=1120
Re: A long answer to a quick question
roger
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7155.msg155274#msg155274 date=1269351144]
"Ngaytxoa"?
[/quote]
"Forgive me" as an interjection.
msg=155353 | topic=7155 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:58:23 | u=3552
Re: A long answer to a quick question
tigermind
Ah, okay. Irayo, ma roger.
msg=154488 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 19:37:46 | u=54
Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Entries are closed.
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/navi-language-workshop-the-poll-of-outstanding-questions/]View poll results[/url]
================
Our [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts/]last attempt[/url] at getting questions answered sort of petered out, so perhaps it's time to start another one with a fresh set of questions, since many of the questions in the old thread have since been answered. Lets gather up questions and I'll try to group them by category so we can send them together in groups. As always of course feedback on the exact wording of questions, as well as if we have answers, are accepted.
Please do not edit your posts after they are added or the updates may be missed. If you need to add more or make corrections, post a new response.Awaiting categorization
- Ke'u... Rutxe pivawm nì'ul!
- A full kinship system (vocabularly for relationships beyond parents, siblings, and children)
- Transitivity with verbs in -eyk- (How productive is -eyk-, including with si-constructions and, and what rules govern accusative (-it/-ti/-t) and dative (-ur/-ru/-r) markings for elements affected by the causative infix?
- "The more, the more" grammatical construct (How does Na’vi handle ‘comparative correlatives’?)
- The usage of ke: rules of position in the flow of speech
- Attributive -a- with adpositional phrases modifying nouns (Are there strict rules which govern these? Are there colloquial variations/differences?)
- Attributive -a- and adjectives created with ke + le (is the -a- ever optional as is the case with simple le-?)
- Negation with adverbs (are there paralles to the kea form used with nouns?)
- 'Self' in Na'vi (How does one reference one’s self or one’s ‘own’ other than with transitive verbs that naturally take the pre-first infix, -äp-?)
- Word order with slu (What mechanism clarifies A becoming B vs. B becoming A in the pattern «A slu B»?
- Fì'u, fìkem and actions (can actions be generalized to fì’u et al?)
- -Pe- with ANY noun to ask a WHICH question? (What about dual, trial, plural scenarios? How does -pe- behave?)
- Clarification on transitivity and infix positions for ALL existent verbs. (This request is now at least triply redundant).
- Clarification of comparative adjectives with nì'ul. (when there is nothing for «to» to be relevant to?)
- The full story on sä- (How and when do you (Paul Frommer) create nouns with this prefix?)
- How to ask for and give directions.
- Range of parts of speech that combine to form si-constructions. (nouns, adjectives, ??)
- Passive and active participles with si-constructions. (How would one say "a ‘clarified’ question" based on the conversational request, «Rutxe, law sivi.»)
Phonology and Phonotactics
- When a word ending in a diphthong takes a vowel affix, how do we syllabify? Is "kifeyä" "ki.fkey.ä" or "ki.fke.yä"? Phrased differently, does the consonantal interpretation of "w" and "y" take precedence over a diphthong interpretation?
- If words such as "yerik" get pluralized to "ayerik" creating a diphthong situation, would they be pronounced "ay.e.rik" or as "a.yer.ik"
- Under what circumstances does the topical "-ìri" ending become just "-ri" (as in your "kem(ì)ri" from the Good Morning America materials)?
- Final stops are unreleased. Are they considered unreleased in synaphea or only at the end of an intonation unit? That is, what do I do with the "-t" in "pot oel tse'a"?
- What is the correct syllabification of the following words (Known syllables marked with . and assumptions marked with ?): pi.za?yu, a?to?ki.ri.na', kì?te.'e, me.o.a.u?ni.a.e.a, snu.mì?na, tsap.'a.lu?te
- What happens when adpositions are added to words that end with the same vowel or consonant as the adposition begins? cf. oe + eo
- We are told there is no "-eng-" infix. What's the conditioning factor in "sengi" (presumed from *sängi)?
- We know that oeng reverts to oenga- when declined, does "pesu" then revert to *pesute when declined?
- Does pum ever go to fum (mefum, pxefum)?
- Does äa ever collapse/merge into just ä or a or äe into just ä or e (especially in word-final position)? Best example kinäa »»» kina or kinä or is it stable?
Participles and other Verbal Derivatives
- Can an active participle take a direct object? And if it can, is it really something that gets said much in casual speech?
- Can a verbal noun ("tì-" or "tì-us-") take a direct object? If so, what case does it take? I must track down my memory of a objective genitive — wm
- Can a passive participle take an agent, or must we always resort to a normal active construction when giving the agent? (As in some Semitic languages, where passives are forbidden when you want to name the agent.)
- We have "tìrusey." What might "tìtsawne'a" mean, if anything?
- Does the passive participle infix have any extended or metaphorical meaning in an intransitive verb, or is it simply meaningless?
- Would tì- or tì- + <us> be the gerund form of a verb? It seems like the latter (Esp. since some verbs tì+verb means something specific) but I believe you've stated that tì+verb would be used as a gerund form. How does this fit in with words like tìrol, tìpawm, tì'eyng, etc?
- With the stative verbs such as "lìm" and "sim" having an adverb form "alìm" and "asim", can they not take the participle? Is this a subordinate form lexicalized as an adverb, or is there something more productive going on? Do all stative verbs behave like this?
- Can pre-first position infixes combine? For example, a reflexive causative form (I made myself do it) or a causative participle or such?
- What other infixes can the participle infixes be used with? Can you have future or past participle, perfective or imperfective, or even subjunctive? What about the second position infixes?
Verb usage / forms
- How can tsnì be used? So far we have two examples with sìlpey and ätxäle si. But more generally, what would be the rule?
- Can the sentence structure used with modal verbs (oe new ngati tsive'a for example) be used more generally with sentences that would call for a non-finite verb? (*Oe fmi nivume - I try to learn?) Or even for sentences which don't call for a non-finite verb? (*Oe tsole'a nga taron - I saw you hunt?)
- How do you use iv as subjunctive when there are two verbs: "If you are walking and talking, you are not listening." Would talking need iv if you already had tivìran?
- How do you treat the apodosis? Do you only worry about tense, or do you have to combine it with iv as well? Ex: what do you write for "listening" above?
- Does the subjunctive match how it's used(so to speak) in English? If not, which verbs/instances specifically require it?
- Is there a general rule that kä can be attached productively to verbs where it makes sense?
- Can nouns that are used with the auxiliary verb "si" take the plural, adjectives or adpositions? IE would "Kem awin sivi" be "Do a quick action"?
- Are we correctly hearing "tspìmìyang" in the movie for "I was about to kill him?" If so, can any past infix be used in the first slot, "tspalmìyang, tspamìyang"? Any future form in the second? It seems like any aspect or mood marking would be restricted to one slot or the other. In the context of the rest of the Na'vi verb system something like *tspìyìmang doesn't seem to make sense — but does this have some meaning?
- When using modal verbs where does the tense go? In the modal itself or in the following verb? Does it matter?
In other words, can you use «Fo nayew tsive’a tìkangkemit ahasey» for "They will want to see the finished work"? or should it be «Fo new tsiyeve’a tìkangkemit ahasey»?
Affixes and Adpositions
- In the sentence "Ma smukan sì smuke, oel ayngati kameie.", is it necessary to pluralize "nga" if your intentions as to whom you were speaking to were already made obvious?
- Back in December you said in your Language Log guest post, "Because of the “short plural” phenomenon, ADP+ adpositions can yield ambiguous structures. Example: mì ‘in’ is ADP+; does mì sokx mean ‘in the body’ or ‘in the bodies’? The language has developed ways of dealing with these potential ambiguities." Care to elaborate what ways the language has develop to deal with the potential ambiguities of short plurals?
- What's the difference between the meaning of the following sentences? 1. "Ikran zolup ne kllte tegfya rìk zup ta utral", 2. "Ikran zolup ne kllte nìfya'o a rìk zup ta utral", 3. "*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel fwa rìk zup ta utral", 4. "*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel rìk a zup ta utral"
- Can the gender suffixes -e and -an be applied to other PNs such as *foan, *foe, *gan, *gae? What about other nouns such as *ikrane, *pa'lian, 'eylane, 'evegan etc?
- Must kea always come before the noun, or could *ake come after?
- Can all adpositions including things like teri, na and pxel, occur as suffixes/enclitics as well as prepositions, or are there any exceptions? It seems like all the times teri has shown up have been as a preposition equivelent of the case -ri.
- does pesu "who?" have a plural fesu when you know multiple people are involved? The plural of tsa'u is sa'u; is the pl. of fì'u therefore ayfì'u, or fayu? Is there a contrast or parallel between sa'u and ?tsayu? Etc.
- Do the interrogative pronouns take case endings in their pe+N form when asked with a transitive verb? Ie. would it be "Pesu tsaye'a samsiyut" or "Pesul tsaye'a samsiyut"? What about the answer, would it suffice just to say "'ite" or would you need to say "'itel"?
- In Chinese, Topics are usually definite (given or inferable discourse topics), but not all topic-heavy languages do this. Where does Na'vi's topical case stand?
- All these rules — fìfrahoren? fìfrayhoren? frafayhoren? fìmehoren? tsapxehoren?
Word meanings
- We have lots of words that seem like synonyms. Are they truly synonyms, or is there a subtle difference in their meaning?
- What is the difference between 'Awlie (once) and 'Awlo (once)?
- What is the difference between kop (also) and nìteng (also)?
- What is the difference between na (like, as) and pxel (like, as)?
- What is the difference between nìn (look at) and tìng nari (look... at with dative)?
- What is the difference between hawnu (protect) and tìhawnu si (protect)?
- What is the difference between way (song) and tìrol (song)? cf. pamtseo which is understandably different.
- Exactly what sense of good is "sìltsan"? Every time someone wants to use it as favorable (Good morning, good day, good night, etc) you shoot it down in favor of fpom. It is good as in morally / not evil, good as in favorable / advantageous, or some other meaning?
- In English we consider "two lungs" while other languages you have "eine Lunge" (One lungs) but "zwei Lungenflügel" (Two lung-wings). With Na'vi, does "tsopì" mean the whole of what is in the body for breathing, or does it mean each part? (And do Na'vi even have the same sort of lung anatomy...)
- What exactly does nang do? It goes with nìtxan, and apparently txantsan as well. What else can it be used with? Can it be taken as a sort of "txan" intensifier?
- Regarding {lam} (glossed as "seem, appear"): First, can it be used in the sense of "manifest," as in "a ghost appeared?" Second, how does one say "he seems to be a moron" — {po lam skxawng}, {po lam na/pxel skxawng}, {(oeru) lam fwa po lu skxawng}, {po lam livu skxawng}?
- I have another word-usgae question. The word tätxaw is glossed as "return." I'm guessing that's in the sense of "The humans returned to Earth." But does the thing that gets returned to (in this case, 'Rrta) use an adposition, or just the dative case marker? And, secondly, could we use *teykätxaw to mean "return" in the sense of "He returned Neytiri's bow"?
- Can fpìl be used to express opinion and belief as it can in English, or if it refers only to the cognitive process of thinking?
- We have a single example of reduplication: {letrrtrr}. Is this iterative sense generalizable, for things like {nìtxontxon}, or even {nìvulvul po CLIMB utralit} "he climbed the tree branch by branch"? {nìtskxetskxe oe zola'u ka kilvan} "I went across the river rock-by-rock"? Or more out there yet, {Tutetute holahaw} "Person-by-person (they) (fell) asleep"?
Adjectives & Adverbs
- Is the superlative "frato" used purely after an adjective as in "tsawl frato" (Biggest), or are there other uses?
- How would a comparison such as "A is as ADJ as B" be formed?
- is it possible to use more than two adjectives with one substantive? like Aa S aB aC || Aa Ba S aC || or could sì be used in a specific way?
- are derived adjectives with "le-" in combination with noun-suffixes or appended adpositions possible ?
- can the N be dropped out of an NP? Does the adj then take the adp/case?
Should be asked independently due to the size/required extra information
- Clarification of the stress of every PN with every number. ([url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/msg155098/#msg155098]Ref[/url])
- It would also be nice to fill out the answer-word chart: ?kawtseng "nowhere", ?kawpo "no-one", no reason, no-how, no way, no (action), no (word), and similarly for which (?pefo "which one"), proximals & distals, some-, every-, other-, same-.
Vocabulary/Lexicon
- Does Na'vi have any [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideophone#Examples]ideophones[/url]?
General Usage
- "Seven hunters went into the forest, but only three of them returned." - solved with takip or maybe pum or just pxefo? "three of seven Xs," (Kinäa tute*wrrta *pxefum)?
- Does the application of txan and pxay for temporal words like zìsìt apply in correlation to their ability to be counted? Pxaya zìsìt or Txana zìsìt?
Currently not slated to be asked (May require clarification)
- [desc=Unless someone disagrees, I believe we have enough canon/corpus examples to answer that this can go either way.]
When starting a conversation with someone, is it proper to start with "Ma XXXX" or wait till during the conversation to say it. So "Oel ngati kameie, ma tsmukan." or "Ma tsmukan, oel ngati kameie."[/desc]
- [desc=I'm not even sure what nivew would mean in this case that new wouldn't... Care to elaborate why you think nivew might be correct?]How do you use iv as subjunctive when there's a modal verb: Txo new nga rivey, oehu! Come with me if you want to live. Why not nivew rivey?[/desc]
- [desc=Frommer has admitted to forgetting to use the dual form, especially on first person, so assuming that was just the case here.]
Way back in early December you gave a spoken dialog that is between two people to the New York Times. In it, one is recounting yesterday when he was in the forest with Txewì. However at the end, he says "Nari soli ayoe fteke nìhawng livok." Was there a reason that was ayoe and not moe, since there only seemed to be two people in the forest that were being careful not to get too close?[/desc]
- [desc=Unless someone really thinks this should be asked]can a adposition at the end of a word cause lenation on the following word?[/desc]
[desc=Yes, we've been told for sure -ev- isn't an infix, so no reason to assume the others are as well, probably transcription error]Have we ever gotten an answer on those mysterious verbal infixes? tovaron, tevaron, telaron, tairon? They may be spurious, but we should get them out of the way if they are.[/desc]
Answered
- [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/misc-answers/]What happens to the stress accent when one of the aspect infixes meets the pseudo-vowels and contracts? "*ferrrfen" > "férfen" or "ferfén"?[/url] A stressed syllable stays and the infix is what gets dropped in this case. *ferrrfen > frrfen
- [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/a-long-answer-to-a-quick-question/msg155104/#msg155104]In one of your responses, you said "Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo." Was that a typo of tìpawmìri or is there something else going on there such as a different sort of topic or another allomorph of ri?[/url] Sempul lì'fyayä harmahaw.
- [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/ayyerik/]What is the plural of "yerik"? "Ayerik?"[/url] Ayyerik (Doubled for clarity in writing only)
- [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/ayliu-niul-ta-karyu-pawl/]Is "ois" a word?[/url] Oìsss is a word.
- [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/ltasygt-with-ke-and-nga/]With the infixes -ìsy- and -asy-, does the determination apply to the speaker (As with -ei- and -äng-) or to the subject/object? Ex. would "Nga ke ftìsyem" mean "I will not allow you to pass" or does it mean "(You are determined that) you will not pass"?[/url] It indicates speaker intention.
- [url=http://naviteri.org/2010/07/vocabulary-update/]Pxay with a plural noun (e.g.: pxaya sute) is colloquial.[/url]
- [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/txelanit-hivawl/msg246975/#msg246975]We have 'awlo (once) and melo (twice); can we expect a *pxeylo/pxelo (thrice)?[/url] They are done as a-dropping plurals through pxelo and then become alo atsìng, alo amrr, etc., just as standard nouns would take numbers in -a-.
List of questions compiled through [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/msg294172/#msg294172]this post[/url].
msg=154545 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:16:39 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Great idea, ma omängum fra'uti
My question (for now) ;)
We have a construction to form the comparative (A to B lu Adj.)
How does the superlative work?
How would a construction like [font=Verdana]A is as Adj. as B work?
Thanks for the effort
msg=154579 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:43:27 | u=430
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=Karyu Pawl]Ngeyä tìpawmerì oe seiyi irayo.[/quote]
Question: Was this a typo or a new form of ìri/ri?
msg=154592 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 20:49:30 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Phonology and Phonotactics
[*]When a word ending in a diphthong takes a vowel affix, how do we syllabify? Is "kifeyä" "ki.fkey.ä" or "ki.fke.yä"? Phrased differently, does the consonantal interpretation of "w" and "y" take precedence over a diphthong interpretation?
[*] What is the plural of "yerik"? "Ayerik?"
[*] Under what circumstances does the topical "-ìri" ending become just "-ri" (as in your "kem(ì)ri" from the Good Morning America materials)?
[*] Final stops are unreleased. Are they considered unreleased in synaphea or only at the end of an intonation unit? That is, what do I do with the "-t" in "pot oel tse'a"?
[*] What happens to the stress accent when one of the aspect infixes meets the pseudo-vowels and contracts? "*ferrrfen" > "férfen" or "ferfén"?
msg=154610 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:02:43 | u=430
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
TehMightyPirate
A thought on this, I feel the old combined one petered out because we built up this huge unmanageable list of questions. Perhaps a good solution to this is we build up questions each week and then send out one email each week (like on a Friday or something). Then, we can mark questions that have been answered and take any unanswered ones and add them to next weeks question email. This should yield fast results, not overwhelm Frommer (too much), and allow us to have an easy system for asking and organizing questions and answers.
Thoughts?
msg=154614 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:06:16 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Good idea. Also the thread got long and so it was getting hard to sort through the new questions. Perhaps I'll start linking to the last post which I have gathered questions from to make it easier.
msg=154618 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:08:35 | u=1317
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
I think that is also a good idea.
This goes along with the pluralizing of words like yerik, which may be what wm.annis was getting at in the first place but it was a little vague to me.
- if words such as "yerik" get pluralized to "ayerik" creating a diphthong situation, would they be pronounced "ay.e.rik" or as "a.yer.ik"
msg=154642 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:20:39 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Participles and other Verbal Derivatives
[*] Can an active participle take a direct object? And if it can, is it really something that gets said much in casual speech?
[*] Can a verbal noun ("tì-" or "tì-us-") take a direct object? If so, what case does it take? I must track down my memory of a objective genitive — wm
[*] Can a passive participle take an agent, or must we always resort to a normal active construction when giving the agent? (As in some Semitic languages, where passives are forbidden when you want to name the agent.)
[*] We have "tìrusey." What might "tìtsawne'a" mean, if anything?
[*] Does the passive participle infix have any extended or metaphorical meaning in an intransitive verb, or is it simply meaningless?
msg=154664 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:32:07 | u=1317
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
Unsure of Categorization
- When starting a conversation with someone, is it proper to start with "Ma XXXX" or wait till during the conversation to say it. So "Oel ngati kameie, ma tsmukan." or "Ma tsmukan, oel ngati kameie."
- In the sentence "Ma smukan sì smuke, oel ayngati kameie.", is it necessary to pluralize "nga" if your intentions as to whom you were speaking to were already made obvious?
msg=154759 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 22:44:00 | u=1225
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
neotrekkerz
Unsure of classification
How do you use iv as subjunctive when there's a modal verb: Txo new nga rivey, oehu! Come with me if you want to live. Why not nivew rivey?
Same question when there are two verbs: "If you are walking and talking, you are not listening." Would talking need iv if you already had tivìran?
How do you treat the apodosis? Do you only worry about tense, or do you have to combine it with iv as well? Ex: what do you write for "listening" above?
Does the subjunctive match how it's used(so to speak) in English? If not, which verbs/instances specifically require it?
msg=154781 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:03:28 | u=1746
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Carborundum
[quote author=Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn link=topic=7157.msg154664#msg154664 date=1269293527]
Unsure of Categorization
- When starting a conversation with someone, is it proper to start with "Ma XXXX" or wait till during the conversation to say it. So "Oel ngati kameie, ma tsmukan." or "Ma tsmukan, oel ngati kameie."
[/quote]
Neytiri greets Eytukan with "ma sempul, oel ngati kameie".
msg=154793 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:11:48 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
She also says "oeru txoa livu. ma oeyä tsmukan". Seems like that question, then, has been answered. Throughout the corpus it seems to be used fairly early on, but not necessarily before saying anything else.
msg=154943 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 03:49:22 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
I just want to add to the list of possible synonyms awaiting clarification:
tìrol vs. way
My guess was that tìrol refers to songs that are sung, whereas way is...instrumental, i guess. But i may be wrong, and i'd like clarification on those.
msg=154966 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 04:22:18 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
You forgot pamtseo.
msg=154975 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 04:31:49 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
I didn't forget pamtseo, ma tsmukan. It's glossed as "music," while the other two are "song." That distinction seems clear enough to me; but if you would like Karyu Pawl to clarify further, by all means, ask him. I would never turn down an opportunity to learn more.
Eywa ngahu, ma tsmukan.
msg=155002 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 05:03:53 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Ah good point. For some reason I thought one was "Music", one was "Song", and the third was "Song, music".
msg=155056 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 06:11:18 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg154488#msg154488 date=1269286666]
- Way back in early December you gave a spoken dialog that is between two people to the New York Times. In it, one is recounting yesterday when he was in the forest with Txewì. However at the end, he says "Nari soli ayoe fteke nìhawng livok." Was there a reason that was ayoe and not moe, since there only seemed to be two people in the forest that were being careful not to get too close?
[/quote]I think I'm going to withdraw this question... I was browsing various sources and noticed that Frommer said he sometimes forgets to use the dual form, especially in first person, and unless someone else sees a reason that might not have been the case here, I don't think there's a point to digging up past mistakes.
msg=155072 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 06:33:58 | u=1225
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
neotrekkerz
I've been thinking about it a while now, and I would like to clarify the use of nìfya'o adj (used with phrases) vs. tengfya vs. na and/or pxel. For example, what's the difference (if there is one) between
Ikran zolup ne kllte tengfya rìk zup ta utral and
Ikran zolup ne kllte nìfya'o a rìk zup ta utral?
My guess is you can only use the adpositions with a single noun: Ikran zolup ne kllte rìkna, but regardless it would be nice to know.
msg=155085 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:01:53 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Did you want to include for the sake of completeness
*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel fwa rìk zup ta utral and
*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel rìk a zup ta utral
msg=155098 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:24:55 | u=1120
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
roger
We should verify the stress of every case of every PN of every number, just in case there are irregularities in there. That would be an awful thing to have to re-learn. Wouldn't be too hard to draw up a table & see if he agrees with it.
Should have: oe, oeg, awga, ga, po, fo, ca, caw, ca'u, sa, saw, sa'u, fì'u, fì'po, etc., and whatever the plurals of those last two are.
Would be worth asking if foan, foe, ngan, ngae, or 1pl are possible PN forms.
msg=155110 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:59:32 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Not to mention every case where there is an ambiguous distinction between diphthong and VCV. I've actually got a little perl script that splits out the syllables of words, it would be trivial to modify it to scour the word list and split out any word where such a thing occurs. Perhaps even clarify the syllabification of any occurrence of "VtsV" as "V.tsV" or "Vt.sV", as well as words that are VCV where C can be either a coda or onset. (Presently my script prefers diphthongs over consonants, and onsets over codas, as that seems to be Na'vi's preferences. But as I said it would be trivial to modify it to spit out all ambiguous cases from the current vocabulary.)
msg=155124 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 08:17:41 | u=1120
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
roger
Since F follows morphology, and underlines entire stressed syllables, this would only be an issue where unstressed syllables meet within roots. Since roots are generally fairly short, there are few instances where this would even come up. AFAIK, so far this has only been relevant for w, y, ', and g, and my suspicion is that the latter two are an influence of English. And if F notes that there is little distinction in stressed examples, there's likely to be even less in unstressed examples where it's not marked in the vocab.
msg=155138 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 09:00:20 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
You are most likely correct there, but it's good to get an understanding. Of all the diphthong examples, only
pizayu had an unstressed syllabic pair... But if the -yu is the same -yu as elsewhere, it's likely not a diphthong. (I'm inclined to believe it is CVCV there.) There were no words where VtsC?V occurred in any unstressed syllable.
Words where it's VCV on an unstressed syllable, and it is not clear from morphology...
a
to
ki
rina'
kì
te
'emeoau
nia
ea
snumì
na
tsap
'alu
te
So it's a pretty short list. I'm inclined to believe that these are all regular.
If anyone wants to look at this on there own, this is the perl regex I'm using to split the syllables out - though this one is not the one I modified to find contested consonants.
[spoiler]
/
\\G
(?| # C?C/VC? syllables
( # C, CC or (null)
(?:[csf]|ts)?
(?:[mgrlwy]|[ptk]x?|ng?)?
| # Additional C only forms
[hvz']
)
(?| # Normal vowels
([iìuoä])() # Empty capture because the ?| doesn't seem to work right
| # Possible diphthongs
([ea])([wy](?!rr|ll))?
)
( # Coda - don't be greedy
# Next syllable gets any contended consonants
(?:['mgrl]|[pk]x?|ng?|tx)
(?![iìuoäeax]|rr|ll)
| # Special case coda for T, it is given up to a s for ts
# Removing this part and adding t to pk above will give the T to the coda
t(?![siìuoäeax]|rr|ll)
)?
| # CV psuedovowel syllables only
([csfmgrlwyhvz']|[pk]x?|t[sx]?|ng?)
(rr|ll)
)
/gcix
This returns the onset in $1, the vowel or psuedovowel (But not the second half of a diphthong) in $2, the y or w from a diphthong in $3 and the coda in $4. When there are disputes, it prefers diphthongs over consonants and onsets over codas. Theoretically to be the most flexible it should give a disputed T to the coda and let the program decide what to do with it, but there are so few cases where the T wouldn't go to a TS that it isn't a huge deal. For pure scientific notation input, however, it should always give the T to the coda in a ts case. Note that words like "'e.wll" are not considered disputed because the consonant MUST go to the CV syllable.
[/spoiler]
msg=155152 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 09:20:46 | u=1120
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
roger
Yeah, worth presenting that list for a quick yes/no; we might even get an explanation of what piza- is.
msg=155160 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 09:52:30 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Added to the list. I made a new section for the PN stress question because it will involve compiling the chart, and sending it. It's probably best done on it's own not as part of a group.
msg=155250 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:52:39 | u=1620
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
dontbugme
Adjectives & Adverbs
- is it possible to use more than two adjectives with one substantive? like Aa S aB aC || Aa Ba S aC || or could sì be used in a specific way?
- are derived adjectives with "-le" in combination with noun-suffixes or appended adpositions possible ?
i hope that i used the linguistic terms correctly and that this has not been asked already
msg=155304 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 14:01:21 | u=1120
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
roger
oeyä ean-a txìm a-tsawl "my big blue butt"
2 adj may also occur on the same side of the N, so the combo should be legal. But yes, don't we have "sì" linking adj?
More general question: can the N be dropped out of an NP? Does the adj then take the adp/case?
It would also be nice to fill out the answer-word chart: ?kawtseng "nowhere", ?kawpo "no-one", no reason, no-how, no way, no (action), no (word), and similarly for which (?pefo "which one"), proximals & distals, some-, every-, other-, same-. And the plurals: does pesu "who?" have a plural fesu when you know multiple people are involved? The plural of tsa'u is sa'u; is the pl. of fì'u therefore ayfì'u, or fayu? Is there a contrast or parallel between sa'u and ?tsayu? Etc.
Also, confirm that all adp, including things like teri, na, and pxel, can occur as suffixes/enclitics as well as as preps. It seems from what he's written that teri is the prep. equivalent of the case -ìri. We should ask that explicitly. (Who knows? It might be possible to get an acc. prep. ??teti, or an ergative ??tel.)
Have we ever gotten an answer on those mysterious verbal infixes? tovaron, tevaron, telaron, tairon? They may be spurious, but we should get them out of the way if they are.
Also, those odd adverbs that look like adjectival forms of stative verbs:
lìm "be far" --> alìm "in the distance". Perhaps stative verbs cannot take the participle? Is the form ?lìma with the opposite word order? Is this a subord. form lexicalized as an adverb, or is there s.t. more productive going on? Do all stative verbs behave like this?
msg=155563 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 16:49:13 | u=1620
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
dontbugme
Phonology and Phonotactics
[*] what happens when adpositions are added to words that end with the same vowl or consonant as the adposition begins?
eg: oe + eo [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/question-about-adp-eo/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/question-about-adp-eo/[/url]
[*] can a adposition at the end of a word cause lenation on the following word?
msg=155592 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 17:14:55 | u=1120
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
roger
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg155563#msg155563 date=1269362953]
[*] can a adposition at the end of a word cause lenation on the following word?
[/quote]
I very strongly suspect not. There's nothing inherent to the sounds of those adp. which cause lenition, but rather s.t. historical, so that lenition is part of the prep+N paradigm. Think of the retention of lost C's during liaison in French. But it should be asked, just in case.
msg=155775 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:19:25 | u=1225
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
neotrekkerz
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg155085#msg155085 date=1269327713]
Did you want to include for the sake of completeness
*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel fwa rìk zup ta utral and
*Ikran zolup ne kllte na/pxel rìk a zup ta utral
[/quote]
Sure, let's clear it up completely.
msg=156187 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 20:13:58 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
First set of questions have been asked. Asked questions are marked in green, I'll move them to the answered section as they come in. No promise everything will get answered, last time we did a group he just answered a few.
msg=156571 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:53:21 | u=1620
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
dontbugme
Verb usage / forms
[*]can kä be attatched generically to all verbs where it sounds senseful?
Word meanings or Phonology and Phonotactics
[*]is "ois" a word?
I looked through some threads and came across these.
maybe some exportable questions could be found in there:
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/genitive/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/genitive/[/url]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/pragmatics/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/pragmatics/[/url]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/negation/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/negation/[/url]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/si-compounds-and-word-order/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/si-compounds-and-word-order/[/url]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/txotsakrr/msg153784/#msg153784]http://forum.learnnavi.org/advanced-grammar/txotsakrr/msg153784/#msg153784[/url]
msg=156586 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:10:03 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg156187#msg156187 date=1269461638]
First set of questions have been asked. Asked questions are marked in green, I'll move them to the answered section as they come in. No promise everything will get answered, last time we did a group he just answered a few.
[/quote]
Ma omängum fra'uti, may i ask why you didn't include the fayu/ayfì'u question? That's one i really would like answered.
msg=156588 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:12:35 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Because I was going off HTML I'd grabbed a little before the server went down, and somehow missed that one when compiling the final list to send. That post was a little hard to pick through to find the questions without the full forum formatting.
msg=156605 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:31:22 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg156588#msg156588 date=1269475955]
Because I was going off HTML I'd grabbed a little before the server went down, and somehow missed that one when compiling the final list to send. That post was a little hard to pick through to find the questions without the full forum formatting.
[/quote]
Well, apparently it's a moot point, anyway; looks like we got [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/declension-of-nouns-ending-in-diphthongs-fi-and-tsa/msg156601/#new]an answer[/url].
msg=156611 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:38:52 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
I call it a part answer... The question of plural question words is still open. Certainly following the fì + ay = fay doesn't work because "pay" seems like it would be too easily confused with water in some cases. Pey would be a lenited number 3... Peay is a moutful, so fe does seem the most promising there. So I think that should still get asked. IMO anyway.
msg=156625 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 01:06:56 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Don't know if that has been answered somewhere else...
Does the interrogative pronouns take case endings in their pe+N form when asked with a transitive verb?
Is it, e.g.:
- [font=Garamond]pesu tsaye'a samsiyut(i)? or
- [font=Garamond]pesul tsaye'a samsiyut(i)?
[font=Garamond]What about the answer? Does it suffice to just say, e.g.:
- [font=Garamond]'ite or rather
- [font=Garamond]'itel (tsaye'a fot(i).)
msg=156949 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 11:12:00 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Aahhh! I should have remembered this earlier.
Phonotactics: We are told that there is no "-eng-" infix. What's the conditioning factor in "sengi" (presumed from *sängi)?
msg=157154 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 15:17:05 | u=1120
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
roger
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7157.msg156625#msg156625 date=1269479216]
[font=Garamond]Don't know if that has been answered somewhere else...
Does the interrogative pronouns take case endings in their pe+N form when asked with a transitive verb?
Is it, e.g.:
- [font=Garamond]pesu tsaye'a samsiyut(i)? or
- [font=Garamond]pesul tsaye'a samsiyut(i)?
[font=Garamond]What about the answer? Does it suffice to just say, e.g.:
- [font=Garamond]'ite or rather
- [font=Garamond]'itel (tsaye'a fot(i).)
[/quote]
You would need case, or I wouldn't know who you were asking about, the doer or the doee.
msg=157278 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 16:30:30 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]If you're sure ... thanks
txo law lu ngar ... irayo :)
I was reminded of Irish Yes/No constructions where the verb is repeated (positive/negative) for that ... but it's not necessarily conjugated ... thought this could happen as well in Na'vi. If you ask already for a "Who" then the meaning of whom you are talking about (with just e.g., 'ite in my example) should be clear - only if you repeat the whole sentence ergative and accusative need to be there... But I don't want to force it ;) I'm rather on the safe side
msg=157295 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 16:41:09 | u=1120
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
roger
I don't know about the answer; that would be evident from context. However, case is not optional the way TAM is. Also, providing case in the answer would verify that you heard the question correctly. But certainly in the question, as a practical matter, case would be essential in many contexts: there's a big difference between pesul tamakuk and pesuti tamakuk, and *pesu tamakuk would be unintelligible. (I take that back: it would most likely be heard as pesut tamakuk, especially if double consonants are reduced the way double vowels are, so if you meant pesul tamakuk you'd be completely misunderstood.)
But y'know how oeng reverts to oenga- when declined? I wonder if pesu would revert to ?pesute when declined?
msg=157525 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:47:51 | u=430
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
TehMightyPirate
While trying to make the quoted phrase from Lord of the Rings "You shall not pass" and make use of the determinate futures (ìsy, asy) I came across the problem, does the determination apply to the speaker (as with <ei> & <äng>) or the subject/object?
"Ngal ke ftìsyem!"
Does it mean "(I) shall not allow you to pass" or does it mean "(you are determined) you will not pass"?
msg=157554 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:05:50 | u=1120
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
roger
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg157525#msg157525 date=1269542871]
While trying to make the quoted phrase from Lord of the Rings "You shall not pass" and make use of the determinate futures (ìsy, asy) I came across the problem, does the determination apply to the speaker (as with <ei> & <äng>) or the subject/object?
"Ngal ke ftìsyem!"
Does it mean "(I) shall not allow you to pass" or does it mean "(you are determined) you will not pass"?
[/quote]
Good question. I've passed it on to Paul. If we're lucky ...
(You might want to as well. His box is overflowing w my emails.)
I could see using the evidential for the intention of another person, with the lack of the evidential meaning the intention is that of the speaker. But I don't think that level of detail has been worked out.
msg=157929 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 23:44:45 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
[quote author=roger link=topic=7157.msg157554#msg157554 date=1269543950]
(You might want to as well. His box is overflowing w my emails.)
[/quote]And because of that he doesn't ever see any of the rest of our emails through the flood either! :P I have heard nothing back yet, but of course it has only been a day or two.
msg=158012 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 02:21:12 | u=430
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg157929#msg157929 date=1269560685]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7157.msg157554#msg157554 date=1269543950]
(You might want to as well. His box is overflowing w my emails.)
[/quote]And because of that he doesn't ever see any of the rest of our emails through the flood either! :P I have heard nothing back yet, but of course it has only been a day or two.
[/quote]
Yeah, we should avoid duplicating emails if at all possible. At the very least it means Pawl has to write the same email twice. At most it means he has to respond in Na'vi to two separate emails. Given that Frommer is the "choke point" in our expansion of the language we want to make things as easy on him as possible. Doubly so since he's working so hard on all this for free.
msg=158015 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 02:25:56 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Right, hence the point of this thread...
msg=161622 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 14:48:35 | u=1620
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
dontbugme
Verb usage / forms
[*] can nouns that are used with "si" take the plural, adjectives or adpositions?
Word meanings
[*] Usage/Meaning of "tsopì"="lung":
In English some other languages you have <two lungs>. In German and some other languages you have <[desc=one "lungs"]eine Lunge[/desc]> but <[desc=two "lungwings"]zwei Lungenflügel[/desc]>. The way frommer [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/body-related-poetry-part-2]gave us the word[/url] it should be assumed to be used in plural but do we really know if this organ looks the same like ours?
Generally: how has this term envolved in our languages?. had it something to do with the spread of anatomie or why don't you use "the thing you breath with" in singular?
msg=163112 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 05:53:16 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Just a small update on the status of asked questions. Karyu Pawl is a busy man and has not had a chance to sit down and respond, but he hopes to get to them this week.
msg=163963 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:19:06 | u=430
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg163112#msg163112 date=1269841996]
Just a small update on the status of asked questions. Karyu Pawl is a busy man and has not had a chance to sit down and respond, but he hopes to get to them this week.
[/quote]
Woohoo! Oh and this question got answered: [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/ltasygt-with-ke-and-nga/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/ltasygt-with-ke-and-nga/[/url]
msg=165055 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 23:11:31 | u=1550
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Taras
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg163112#msg163112 date=1269841996]
but he hopes to get to them this week.
[/quote]
Tsun oe tsere'a faylì'ut a fì'u oeru txana prrte' leiu ;)
msg=165945 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 13:04:17 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Syntax
You have used "tsaw" as a resumptive pronoun with inanimate head-nouns (po *tsane* karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel). Do we use forms of "po" for animates, as in "srake ngal tse'a sutet a oe *fohu* parmängkxo?".
Feh.
msg=166455 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 16:44:39 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Syntax
In Chinese, Topics are usually definite (given or inferable discourse topics), but not all topic-heavy languages do this. Where does Na'vi's topical case stand?
msg=166804 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 19:26:51 | u=2788
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg165945#msg165945 date=1269954257]
You have used "tsaw" as a resumptive pronoun with inanimate head-nouns (po *tsane* karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel). Do we use forms of "po" for animates, as in "srake ngal tse'a sutet a oe *fohu* parmängkxo?".
[/quote]
Apparently yes: Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.
Did we ever get clarification whether tsa is the same as tsaw? In the post containing the tsane line, Frommer writes tsa on its own first, contrasting it with po.
msg=167250 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 22:56:08 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg166804#msg166804 date=1269977211]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg165945#msg165945 date=1269954257]
You have used "tsaw" as a resumptive pronoun with inanimate head-nouns (po *tsane* karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel). Do we use forms of "po" for animates, as in "srake ngal tse'a sutet a oe *fohu* parmängkxo?".
[/quote]
Apparently yes: Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.[/quote]
Gah! I no longer have the entire Corpus memorized! What use am I now?
msg=167257 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 23:03:22 | u=1317
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Nywotkrr Tsamahela
You'd make a mighty fine paper weight. :D
msg=167277 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 23:21:51 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg167250#msg167250 date=1269989768]
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg166804#msg166804 date=1269977211]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg165945#msg165945 date=1269954257]
You have used "tsaw" as a resumptive pronoun with inanimate head-nouns (po *tsane* karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel). Do we use forms of "po" for animates, as in "srake ngal tse'a sutet a oe *fohu* parmängkxo?".
[/quote]
Apparently yes: Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.[/quote]
Gah! I no longer have the entire Corpus memorized! What use am I now?
[/quote]That's a good thing! It's a sign the language is broadening.
msg=167287 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 23:37:40 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
I learned a new word from NPR today, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapax_legomenon]hapax legomenon[/url] -- a word that occurs only once in a given corpus. Although in the NPR story it was being used to refer to phrases that occur in only one use in a language, so i don't know if that fits the "official" definition--they gave the example of the phrase "under God" being an archaic way of saying "God-willing" that is now extant (at least in American English) only in our Pledge of Allegiance.
So, i would like to know if Karyu Pawl has any examples of 1) a word that is used in Na'vi for only one phrase and/or 2) a phrase in Na'vi that only exists to be used in one very specific context (e.g., a phrase one would only use while communing with the Tree of Souls, used for no other purpose).
Don't ask me why i would want these things; i just...do.
If you feel this doesn't belong in this thread, ma smuk, please let me know, and i'll relocate it.
msg=167300 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 00:11:15 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
That is the sort of thing I refer to as "Linguistic lense flare" - making an analogy to the quintessential 3-d animation effect of a lense flare... Something that in real optics is undesirable and every attempt is made to minimize, yet when there is a chance to not have it at all, it is added in artistically (Hopefully artistically, anyway) to make it feel more organic and real because we are used to seeing it. With constructed languages you could avoid all these irregularities, archaic forms, and other such things that make the language difficult to learn or use, but putting them in makes the language feel more natural and more real.
So, it's a fair question. Don't expect an answer right away, but asking it may be enough to put the thought in his mind, and perhaps down the road something like that will appear.
msg=167421 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 03:45:46 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg167287#msg167287 date=1269992260]So, i would like to know if Karyu Pawl has any examples of 1) a word that is used in Na'vi for only one phrase and/or 2) a phrase in Na'vi that only exists to be used in one very specific context (e.g., a phrase one would only use while communing with the Tree of Souls, used for no other purpose).[/quote]
What you're talking about here is less hapax than specialized or archaic vocabulary. Homer is full of hapax legomena, and they can be quite annoying. It's hard sometimes to know what a word means when you only get to see it used once... once anywhere, in the entire body of Greek texts. To speak of hapax in a living language would be a bit odd, since in theory you could walk up to someone and use a rare word, moving it out of hapax territory. In a fixed corpus that doesn't really grow much, like ancient Greek, hapax are much more common.
The "under God" business is an archaism, an easier and less annoying situation to cope with. ;)
msg=167496 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-03-31 05:26:20 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg167421#msg167421 date=1270007146]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg167287#msg167287 date=1269992260]So, i would like to know if Karyu Pawl has any examples of 1) a word that is used in Na'vi for only one phrase and/or 2) a phrase in Na'vi that only exists to be used in one very specific context (e.g., a phrase one would only use while communing with the Tree of Souls, used for no other purpose).[/quote]
What you're talking about here is less hapax than specialized or archaic vocabulary. Homer is full of hapax legomena, and they can be quite annoying. It's hard sometimes to know what a word means when you only get to see it used once... once anywhere, in the entire body of Greek texts. To speak of hapax in a living language would be a bit odd, since in theory you could walk up to someone and use a rare word, moving it out of hapax territory. In a fixed corpus that doesn't really grow much, like ancient Greek, hapax are much more common.
The "under God" business is an archaism, an easier and less annoying situation to cope with. ;)
[/quote]
Yeah, as soon as i read the Wikipedia article it became clear the NPR story hadn't been using the term correctly. So what i'm going for is the thing they were calling "hapax" in the NPR story.
msg=171793 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 15:02:56 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Verb Form
Are we correctly hearing "tspìmìyang" in the movie for "I was about to kill him?" If so, can any past infix be used in the first slot, "tspalmìyang, tspamìyang"? Any future form in the second? It seems like any aspect or mood marking would be restricted to one slot or the other. In the context of the rest of the Na'vi verb system something like *tspìyìmang doesn't seem to make sense — but does this have some meaning?
msg=171803 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 15:22:46 | u=1120
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
roger
"I'm about to have just killed you" = "you're gonna die now"?
This has not been confirmed, and IMO is a priority to get confirmed.
msg=172261 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-03 23:29:32 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]I borrowed roger's formulation from the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/mipa-ayliu-teri-tusaftxua-filifya!/]Mipa ayLì'u teri... Thread[/url]. Hope that's okay.
Concerning tok and utterances with adpositions that describe location:
If lu cannot function as to be in a place, then how to say "[noun] is [prep] [location]". Do we need a relative clause for that?
================
[font=Garamond]si-constructions and case:
If si-constructions count as intrasitive and the 'normal' direct object gets the dative, how do we treat instances in which there is already a dative, e.g.
"I write you a message"
Can there be a double dative? Is it solved through adpositions or is there another construction?
*oe pamrel si 'upxareru ngaru
*oe pamrel si 'upxareru ne nga
*oe pamrel si fte fpive' 'upxaret ngaru
*oe pamrel si fte ngaru livu 'upxare
msg=175389 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-06 21:46:14 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Morphosyntax (er, Affixes)
All these rules — fìfrahoren? fìfrayhoren? frafayhoren? (The last seems least likely.)
msg=175644 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 08:02:07 | u=54
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Tiger
Here's an interesting one I stumbled across looking through emails today.
[quote=Paul Frommer]Tìkangkem atxantsan nang[/quote]
The implication is that nìtxan is not the only context where nang can be used. So that begs the question...
What exactly does nang do? It goes with nìtxan, and apparently txantsan as well. What else can it be used with? Can it be taken as a sort of "txan" intensifier?
msg=175837 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-07 16:05:43 | u=430
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg175644#msg175644 date=1270627327]
Here's an interesting one I stumbled across looking through emails today.
[quote=Paul Frommer]Tìkangkem atxantsan nang[/quote]
The implication is that nìtxan is not the only context where nang can be used. So that begs the question...
What exactly does nang do? It goes with nìtxan, and apparently txantsan as well. What else can it be used with? Can it be taken as a sort of "txan" intensifier?
[/quote]
That's how I've kind of been picturing it used.
msg=196172 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 18:24:00 | u=73
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Prrton
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg175837#msg175837 date=1270656343]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg175644#msg175644 date=1270627327]
Here's an interesting one I stumbled across looking through emails today.
[quote=Paul Frommer]Tìkangkem atxantsan nang[/quote]
The implication is that nìtxan is not the only context where nang can be used. So that begs the question...
What exactly does nang do? It goes with nìtxan, and apparently txantsan as well. What else can it be used with? Can it be taken as a sort of "txan" intensifier?
[/quote]
That's how I've kind of been picturing it used.
[/quote]
It's my understanding that as long as it's at the very end, it can intensify anything. It just happens to most common in conjunction with «txan»-things because they are setting up intensity in the first place.
msg=196255 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-04-27 19:26:52 | u=430
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7157.msg196172#msg196172 date=1272392640]
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg175837#msg175837 date=1270656343]
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7157.msg175644#msg175644 date=1270627327]
Here's an interesting one I stumbled across looking through emails today.
[quote=Paul Frommer]Tìkangkem atxantsan nang[/quote]
The implication is that nìtxan is not the only context where nang can be used. So that begs the question...
What exactly does nang do? It goes with nìtxan, and apparently txantsan as well. What else can it be used with? Can it be taken as a sort of "txan" intensifier?
[/quote]
That's how I've kind of been picturing it used.
[/quote]
It's my understanding that as long as it's at the very end, it can intensify anything. It just happens to most common in conjunction with «txan»-things because they are setting up intensity in the first place.
[/quote]
Well, that drags up a long forgotten conversation. I too agree though, since then I've basically imagined that "nang" adds intensity to any clause it's attached to.
msg=205136 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-07 12:59:46 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Word Usage
Regarding {lam} (glossed as "seem, appear"): First, can it be used in the sense of "manifest," as in "a ghost appeared?" Second, how does one say "he seems to be a moron" — {po lam skxawng}, {po lam na/pxel skxawng}, {(oeru) lam fwa po lu skxawng}, {po lam livu skxawng}?
msg=205692 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-08 00:17:15 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
I have another word-usgae question. The word tätxaw is glossed as "return." I'm guessing that's in the sense of "The humans returned to Earth." But does the thing that gets returned to (in this case, 'Rrta) use an adposition, or just the dative case marker?
And, secondly, could we use *teykätxaw to mean "return" in the sense of "He returned Neytiri's bow"?
msg=206657 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-09 13:31:51 | u=1620
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
dontbugme
Verb usage / forms
which modal verbs can be used non modally?
im not shure if its been attestet, but afaik kin can be used non modally
how about: zene, zenke, tsun, new, (...) ?
In my point of view(an non linguistic one) "i need something" is equivalent to "i need to have something" (or with the even more general dative construction in Na'vi) "oe kin livu oeru 'uo". So this have/Dative construction should be (theoretically) applicable to the other modal verbs too
Is that possible? and if, would the cases then work the same way as with lu?
lu oeru fì'u - i have this thing
zene oeru fì'u - i must have this thing
or else?
msg=208656 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-11 22:37:52 | u=1620
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
dontbugme
Affixes and Adpositions
if the plural is understood out of the context can you then say fì/tsa instead of fay/tsay ?
msg=212340 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 12:40:53 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg208656#msg208656 date=1273617472]
Affixes and Adpositions
if the plural is understood out of the context can you then say fì/tsa instead of fay/tsay ?[/quote]
This one was [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#Declension_with_Diphthongs_and_Deixis]already answered[/url] by implication.
msg=212351 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:10:39 | u=1620
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
dontbugme
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg212340#msg212340 date=1274100053]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg208656#msg208656 date=1273617472]
Affixes and Adpositions
if the plural is understood out of the context can you then say fì/tsa instead of fay/tsay ?[/quote]
This one was [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#Declension_with_Diphthongs_and_Deixis]already answered[/url] by implication.
[/quote]
does this also apply for fìme/fìpxe/tsame/tsapxe too? (are these confirmed at all?)
in this case it would be shorter to use fì/tsa.
msg=212380 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 13:31:10 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg212351#msg212351 date=1274101839]
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg212340#msg212340 date=1274100053]
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg208656#msg208656 date=1273617472]
Affixes and Adpositions
if the plural is understood out of the context can you then say fì/tsa instead of fay/tsay ?[/quote]
This one was [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/March-June#Declension_with_Diphthongs_and_Deixis]already answered[/url] by implication.
[/quote]
does this also apply for fìme/fìpxe/tsame/tsapxe too? (are these confirmed at all?)
in this case it would be shorter to use fì/tsa.
[/quote]
Kaltxì ma 'eylan na'viyä.
This is complete conjecture on my part, but my [desc=completely insubstantiated]guess[/desc] is that you wouldn't mix prefixes like this. My guess is that the number prefixes would drop back and become adjectives.
-[desc=I see three Skypeople]Oel tse'a pxesawtutet[/desc].
-[desc=What Skypeople?]Pesawtute?[/desc]
-[desc=Those three Skypeople. Don't you see the three Skypeople there?]Tsaysawtute apxey. Ngal ke tse'a pxesawtutet tsatseng srak?[/desc]
Again, just my guess.
msg=212533 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 16:18:31 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7157.msg212351#msg212351 date=1274101839]does this also apply for fìme/fìpxe/tsame/tsapxe too? (are these confirmed at all?)
in this case it would be shorter to use fì/tsa.[/quote]
There are not confirmed as far as I can tell, but there's no particular reason to expect these to work differently. It might be shorter, but we have no reason to believe number marking is optional when even the adjective pxay seems to trigger plural marking.
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg212380#msg212380 date=1274103070]This is complete conjecture on my part, but my [desc=completely insubstantiated]guess[/desc] is that you wouldn't mix prefixes like this. My guess is that the number prefixes would drop back and become adjectives.
[/quote]
I don't see any reasons to believe that number marking for dual and trial is somehow fundamentally different morphologically than the plural marker. I would be stunned if fì-me, tsa-me, etc., aren't correct.
msg=212536 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 16:22:03 | u=2788
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg212533#msg212533 date=1274113111]
It might be shorter, but we have no reason to believe number marking is optional when even the adjective pxay seems to trigger plural marking.
[/quote]
At the same time, however, attributive numbers do not seem to trigger plural marking. Quaint, no?
msg=212572 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-17 17:01:28 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg212536#msg212536 date=1274113323]At the same time, however, attributive numbers do not seem to trigger plural marking. Quaint, no?[/quote]
I'm not sure I'd call it "quaint." It's common enough, and doesn't detract from my point — some sort of overt number marking seems to be required in Na'vi. Sometimes that marking is redundant, as with pxay, sometimes it's more parsimonious, as when numerals are used.
msg=221439 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-30 18:25:36 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Sorry, if this has been answered already. Couldn’t find it in a quick scan… If so, please direct me to the source – irayo
Tense/Verb Usage:
When using modal verbs where goes the tense? In the modal itself or in the following verb? Does it matter?
In other words, can you use
fo nayew tsive’a tìkangkemit ahasey ?
»they will want to see the finished work«
or
fo new tsiyeve’a tìkangkemit ahasey ?
msg=221531 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-05-30 21:14:38 | u=195
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
esoanem
I'd assume that they're both valid, but with different meanings.
nayew tsive'a = at some point in the future they will want to see
nwe tiyeve'a = they want (now) to see at some point in the future.
msg=225322 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 00:02:10 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
Kaltxì ma smuk. I have a question related to numbers that came to mind this morning. We know how to say "three skypeople did X," but how would we say "three of the skypeople did X"? I know the difference may seem trivial, but consider something a little more complicated:
"Seven hunters went into the forest, but only three of them returned."
What do you think, ma smuk?
msg=225338 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 00:15:12 | u=1550
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Taras
Fpìl oel futa zene fko sivar lì'ut a san takip sìk: Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, slä nì'aw pxey takip fo tolätxaw. Kefyak?
msg=225373 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 01:07:07 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
Tewti, oel fpìl futa livu ngaru tìyawr, ma Kemaweyan. Irayo =)
msg=225431 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 04:00:28 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
...So now i've thought of another number question:
We have 'awlo (once) and melo (twice); can we expect a *pxeylo/pxelo (thrice)? In English, "thrice" is considered archaic, and there are no dedicated words if you go higher—you'd just say something occurred "four times," for example. So, how high does this -lo construct go? And above that limit, what expression takes its place?
msg=225464 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 05:34:41 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…
msg=225502 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 08:49:31 | u=195
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
esoanem
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg225431#msg225431 date=1275624028]
...So now i've thought of another number question:
We have 'awlo (once) and melo (twice); can we expect a *pxeylo/pxelo (thrice)? In English, "thrice" is considered archaic, and there are no dedicated words if you go higher—you'd just say something occurred "four times," for example. So, how high does this -lo construct go? And above that limit, what expression takes its place?
[/quote]
No way to tell.
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg225464#msg225464 date=1275629681]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…
[/quote]
I was thinking the same thing, also on pxey of course.
Also, that pxeya takip fo tolätxaw construction doesn't work, that would mean returned from among three hunters, the takip isn't needed.
I'd probably just say: [desc=seven hunters went into the forest, but only three returned]kinäa taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng slä pxisaronyu tolätxaw[/desc] instead, with a clear implication that they are from the same group. Also, I'm not sure that we can use nì'aw like that, nì'aw is literally one-ly so, has the same etymology as only, however the only we use here is a seperate lexeme more like merely, possible nì'it or nìhol would be more accurate.
msg=225521 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 09:34:02 | u=1550
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Taras
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg225464#msg225464 date=1275629681]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…
[/quote]
Ngaru tìyawr, slä nìawnomum aa -> a sì äa -> ä. Tafral san kìnä taronyu sìk fu san taronyu akinä sìk lu eyawr ::)
msg=225524 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 09:37:44 | u=195
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
esoanem
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225521#msg225521 date=1275644042]
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg225464#msg225464 date=1275629681]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…
[/quote]
Ngaru tìyawr, slä nìawnomum aa -> a sì äa -> ä. Tafral san kìnä taronyu sìk fu san taronyu akinä sìk lu eyawr ::)
[/quote]
I knew aa went to a but when did we find out about äa?
msg=225532 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 09:54:00 | u=1550
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Taras
Oel ke tsun rivun, slä lam oer fwa lamu tengtsengmì a teri san aa sìk.
msg=225536 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:02:38 | u=195
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
esoanem
The closest I can find to that is when [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/language-update-a-closer-look-at-dr-frommers-letter/msg46529/#msg46529]this post by Roger[/url] stating that Frommer said that vowels contract. äa would need a special mention though because, unlike the obvious vowel contractions, it has two different vowels.
msg=225538 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:23:25 | u=2788
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Lance R. Casey
Actually, [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon#Attributive_a]the ruling[/url] we have is that äa and aä are "unstable", but "allowed".
msg=225540 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:27:08 | u=1550
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Taras
Ha tsun fko sivar mefya'oti, kefyak? San kinäa taronyu sìk sì san kìnä taronyu sìk lu eyawr ::)
msg=225544 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:35:19 | u=195
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
esoanem
kinäa is correct, but eithe kinä or kina would be more likely to be what you'd hear in coversation. Frommer didn't say which way it would contract when it did. I also assume that the same rule would apply to ìi/iì as does to äa/aä.
msg=225546 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 10:40:04 | u=1550
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Taras
Tsun fko sivung fìtìpawmit fìtseng ::)
msg=226306 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-04 22:41:59 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7157.msg225502#msg225502 date=1275641371]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg225431#msg225431 date=1275624028]
...So now i've thought of another number question:
We have 'awlo (once) and melo (twice); can we expect a *pxeylo/pxelo (thrice)? In English, "thrice" is considered archaic, and there are no dedicated words if you go higher—you'd just say something occurred "four times," for example. So, how high does this -lo construct go? And above that limit, what expression takes its place?
[/quote]
No way to tell.
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg225464#msg225464 date=1275629681]
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7157.msg225338#msg225338 date=1275610512]
Kinä taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng, ….[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Kxawm kinäa taronyu fu taronyu akinä ? Oel fparmìl futa fkol kin -a- alahe ayholpxayhu…
[/quote]
I was thinking the same thing, also on pxey of course.
Also, that pxeya takip fo tolätxaw construction doesn't work, that would mean returned from among three hunters, the takip isn't needed.
I'd probably just say: [desc=seven hunters went into the forest, but only three returned]kinäa taronyu kamä nemfa na'rìng slä pxisaronyu tolätxaw[/desc] instead, with a clear implication that they are from the same group. Also, I'm not sure that we can use nì'aw like that, nì'aw is literally one-ly so, has the same etymology as only, however the only we use here is a seperate lexeme more like merely, possible nì'it or nìhol would be more accurate.
[/quote]
Your point about nì'aw is well taken, ma kemeoauniaea. And yes, your sentence eliminates the problem for this specific example; but still, i'd like to know how (if possible) to form a construct that says "three of seven Xs," or variations on that theme.
Also, tangentially, i too am interested to see what the verdict will be regarding äa and ìi. I agree that these will probably result in contraction.
In any case, fìtìpängkxori atxantsan ayngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan, ma smuk. Ayngeyä aylì'ufa oe sleru kanu nì'ul.
msg=226503 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 08:23:30 | u=195
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
esoanem
For the three of seven, I've just had a thought, depending on some of the functions of a genitive in na'vi, it would be possible to say 3 of the seven hunters: [desc=three of them of the seven hunters]pxefo kinäa taronyuyä[/desc].
msg=226704 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 17:53:30 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
Tsasäfpìl sìlronsem leiu, ma kemeoauniaea, ulte oeru fì'u lam sìltsan. Still, i would like to hear from Karyu Pawl—first on the details of the genitive.
msg=226735 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 18:58:31 | u=195
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
esoanem
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg226704#msg226704 date=1275760410]
Tsasäfpìl sìlronsem leiu, ma kemeoauniaea, ulte oeru fì'u lam sìltsan. Still, i would like to hear from Karyu Pawl—first on the details of the genitive.
[/quote]
I agree, I'm just throwing out another tentative suggestion.
================
Anyway, a few questions have come from this:
Can nì'aw be used to mean only/merely or does it just mean only/on its own?
What functions other than possessive does the na'vi genitive have?
We can has ruling on äa/aä and ìi/iì when they do decay (even if this isn't strictly correct)?
msg=226808 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 20:48:53 | u=0
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7157.msg225544#msg225544 date=1275647719]
kinäa is correct, but eithe kinä or kina would be more likely to be what you'd hear in coversation. Frommer didn't say which way it would contract when it did. I also assume that the same rule would apply to ìi/iì as does to äa/aä.
[/quote]
I sent him an email about this EXACT issue; he never returned a thing.
BTW, where is he, anyway? We haven't received an update in sometime. I hope he's well.
msg=226828 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-05 21:08:55 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Finals, I guess … and he is a busy man, after all ;)
I’d like a confirmation on the usage of txan for temporal concepts – I stumbled across this in the Na’vi Nì’aw section. I was of the opinion that txan would mean »much (time)« / »long (period of time)« no matter what the temporal word was. So, when I wanted to say »many years«, I used txana ayzìsìt. It didn’t occur to me that it could also be pxay. But I don’t trust these countable/uncountable rules that apply for English, German (and other languages as well?) …
msg=227516 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 01:29:29 | u=430
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg226828#msg226828 date=1275772135]
[font=Garamond]Finals, I guess … and he is a busy man, after all ;)
I’d like a confirmation on the usage of txan for temporal concepts – I stumbled across this in the Na’vi Nì’aw section. I was of the opinion that txan would mean »much (time)« / »long (period of time)« no matter what the temporal word was. So, when I wanted to say »many years«, I used txana ayzìsìt. It didn’t occur to me that it could also be pxay. But I don’t trust these countable/uncountable rules that apply for English, German (and other languages as well?) …
[/quote]
He's still around but I imagine he could use a break. I know I would after having to grade papers.
msg=227577 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 06:47:01 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg226828#msg226828 date=1275772135]
[font=Garamond]Finals, I guess … and he is a busy man, after all ;)
I’d like a confirmation on the usage of txan for temporal concepts – I stumbled across this in the Na’vi Nì’aw section. I was of the opinion that txan would mean »much (time)« / »long (period of time)« no matter what the temporal word was. So, when I wanted to say »many years«, I used txana ayzìsìt. It didn’t occur to me that it could also be pxay. But I don’t trust these countable/uncountable rules that apply for English, German (and other languages as well?) …
[/quote]
Ma Plumps, i don't have the citation in front of me, but apparently there was a line Frommer translated that didn't make it into the film—something to the effect of, "short time, long time, it doesn't matter." The line used txan and yol.
msg=227608 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 08:52:52 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg227577#msg227577 date=1275806821]
Ma Plumps, i don't have the citation in front of me, but apparently there was a line Frommer translated that didn't make it into the film—something to the effect of, "short time, long time, it doesn't matter." The line used txan and yol.
[/quote]
[font=Garamond]Yes, I remember that message – that’s when we got clarification on yol not being »long time« :P
Now, I want to know if that holds true for all temporal aspects?
In English we have »much time« (uncountable) but »many years« (countable)
In German it’s »viel Zeit« (uncountable) but »viele Jahre« (countable)
Maybe it’s just a spleen right now *shrug* :P
msg=227627 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 10:06:13 | u=1746
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Carborundum
Has this been sent to Frommer yet? If not, reckon that the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/to-think/]question[/url] I had a while ago regarding the meaning of fpìl warrants inclusion.
The question was whether fpìl can be used to express opinion and belief as it can in English, or if it refers only to the cognitive process of thinking.
msg=227798 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 13:23:50 | u=0
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg227516#msg227516 date=1275787769]
He's still around but I imagine he could use a break. I know I would after having to grade papers.
[/quote]
Yeah...
msg=227955 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 16:28:40 | u=430
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=7157.msg227627#msg227627 date=1275818773]
Has this been sent to Frommer yet? If not, reckon that the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/to-think/]question[/url] I had a while ago regarding the meaning of fpìl warrants inclusion.
The question was whether fpìl can be used to express opinion and belief as it can in English, or if it refers only to the cognitive process of thinking.
[/quote]
I thought we had a ruling on this? I may just be making that up though.
msg=227959 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 16:35:55 | u=1746
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Carborundum
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7157.msg227955#msg227955 date=1275841720]
[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=7157.msg227627#msg227627 date=1275818773]
Has this been sent to Frommer yet? If not, reckon that the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/to-think/]question[/url] I had a while ago regarding the meaning of fpìl warrants inclusion.
The question was whether fpìl can be used to express opinion and belief as it can in English, or if it refers only to the cognitive process of thinking.
[/quote]
I thought we had a ruling on this? I may just be making that up though.
[/quote]No definite conclusion was reached in the thread in question at least. If we do have a ruling, I would be very interested in hearing it.
msg=227966 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 16:48:59 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
I can't seem to find it right now, but what about that quote from Karyu Pawl when he said, "I didn't think there was anyone who could speak Na'vi..." (or something like that)?
msg=227975 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 16:58:49 | u=195
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
esoanem
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg227966#msg227966 date=1275842939]
I can't seem to find it right now, but what about that quote from Karyu Pawl when he said, "I didn't think there was anyone who could speak Na'vi..." (or something like that)?
[/quote]
Just looked it up, it was "fparmìl oel futa".
msg=227982 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 17:08:18 | u=1746
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Carborundum
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7157.msg227975#msg227975 date=1275843529]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg227966#msg227966 date=1275842939]
I can't seem to find it right now, but what about that quote from Karyu Pawl when he said, "I didn't think there was anyone who could speak Na'vi..." (or something like that)?
[/quote]
Just looked it up, it was "fparmìl oel futa".
[/quote]Yes, that example was brought up in the thread. However, one might interpret it as meaning "I was thinking this thing...", i.e. not as expressing belief, but a statement of previously having entertained a certain thought.
msg=228042 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-06 17:59:59 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
[quote author=Carborundum link=topic=7157.msg227982#msg227982 date=1275844098]
[quote author=kemeoauniaea link=topic=7157.msg227975#msg227975 date=1275843529]
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg227966#msg227966 date=1275842939]
I can't seem to find it right now, but what about that quote from Karyu Pawl when he said, "I didn't think there was anyone who could speak Na'vi..." (or something like that)?
[/quote]
Just looked it up, it was "fparmìl oel futa".
[/quote]Yes, that example was brought up in the thread. However, one might interpret it as meaning "I was thinking this thing...", i.e. not as expressing belief, but a statement of previously having entertained a certain thought.
[/quote]
Tam, ma Carborundum; set oel tìketengit tslam.
msg=230331 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-08 01:44:19 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Word Meanings (well, lexical morphology)
We have a single example of reduplication: {letrrtrr}. Is this iterative sense generalizable, for things like {nìtxontxon}, or even {nìvulvul po CLIMB utralit} "he climbed the tree branch by branch"? {nìtskxetskxe oe zola'u ka kilvan} "I went across the river rock-by-rock"? Or more out there yet, {Tutetute holahaw} "Person-by-person (they) (fell) asleep"?
msg=230402 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-08 06:12:13 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg230331#msg230331 date=1275961459]
{nìkxetsekxetse oe zola'u ka kilvan} "I went across the river rock-by-rock"? [/quote]
[font=Garamond]*hrh* That would be »… tail by tail« ;D – but I like it :)
I think you mean {nìtskxetskxe}
msg=230885 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-08 16:06:28 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg230402#msg230402 date=1275977533]
I think you mean {nìtskxetskxe}[/quote]
D'oh! That's not the first time I've confused those words.
msg=243959 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-21 21:23:45 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Vocabulary/Lexicon
Ideophones? (I think they're called "expressives" in Malay/Indonesian linguistics.)
msg=244116 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-22 00:36:02 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7157.msg243959#msg243959 date=1277155425]
Vocabulary/Lexicon
Ideophones? (I think they're called "expressives" in Malay/Indonesian linguistics.)
[/quote]
Ooh, yeah; good call. I'd like to have some of those.
msg=248985 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-06-27 04:58:54 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
Kaltxì, ma smuk. Random thought (apologies if it's been brought up before):
Does lenition occur on proper names? Like, does fpi+ Tsu'tey become *fpi Su'tey?
The only real-word example i know of is consonant changes in Turkish: Some suffixes cause lenition (i suppose that would be the term) to some consonants at the ends of the words they affix to. So, for example, if you want to say "my angel," that's melek+im-->meleğim. If, however, you have a friend named Angel (about whom you're feeling possessive), Melek+im instead becomes Melek'im. The important point here, though, is that even though the original spelling is retained in the case of proper nouns, the pronunciation still changes as usual. But Na'vi, obviously, doesn't actually have a writing system.
So, what do you think?
msg=281684 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-06 14:49:39 | u=2788
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Lance R. Casey
(Catching up on stuff)
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg248985#msg248985 date=1277614734]
So, what do you think?
[/quote]
That it is a good question, and it also touches upon a more general one. If I am to say, say, "in his village", what happens if mì is juxtaposed with peyä tsray? Do we get an ambiguous *mì feyä tsray, or does the lenition "jump" to produce *mì peyä sray (which, of course, is also ambiguous) -- or is there no lenition at all? Same goes for things like "at the big tree": *ro sawla utral or *ro tsawla utral? Now, the situation can easily be avoided by reordering the words and/or cliticizing the adpositions -- and perhaps this is even mandated (or at least preferred) in such cases.
msg=284712 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-12 01:19:30 | u=73
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Prrton
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg281684#msg281684 date=1281106179]
(Catching up on stuff)
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7157.msg248985#msg248985 date=1277614734]
So, what do you think?
[/quote]
That it is a good question, and it also touches upon a more general one. If I am to say, say, "in his village", what happens if mì is juxtaposed with peyä tsray? Do we get an ambiguous *mì feyä tsray, or does the lenition "jump" to produce *mì peyä sray (which, of course, is also ambiguous) -- or is there no lenition at all? Same goes for things like "at the big tree": *ro sawla utral or *ro tsawla utral? Now, the situation can easily be avoided by reordering the words and/or cliticizing the adpositions -- and perhaps this is even mandated (or at least preferred) in such cases.
[/quote]
Partial answer... [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/the-two-songs-that-didnt-make-it-into-the-asg/]2nd line of the Spiral Song[/url].
Lenition does not "reach across" an intervening element to affect the noun targeted by the adposition.
However, in the example we don't have our full satisfaction.
I am under the impression that lenition does affect pre-nouns, but could be very wrong.
e.g.: Ro satseng yolom fol.
msg=284774 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-12 02:44:06 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
Good catch, ma Prrton.
msg=289791 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-19 15:18:13 | u=5958
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
MIPP
I think I found something new *.*
A few days ago I was reading the wikipedia in Portuguese, and I found an interesting thing about diphthongs. Looks like in Portuguese, there are "growing diphtongs" (I don't know the word in English, I'm sorry), which are diphthongs, but reversed. E.g. A normal diphthong would be: "ay" or "aw", and a growing one would be "wa" or "ya". You know what I mean, right? So, I checked the Na'vi dictionary and I noticed something: Y and W are always in diphtongs: either the normal ones (aw, ay, ew, ey) or reversed (ya, yo, wi, etc).
I'm putting it here because I don't know if anyone has ever noticed it...
Well, in portuguese it is called as a "Ditongo Crescente Oral", which literally means "Oral growing diphtong". Here is the link: [url=http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonologia_da_l%C3%ADngua_portuguesa]http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonologia_da_l%C3%ADngua_portuguesa[/url]. Use CTRL+F to find the text:
[quote]Ditongos crescentes orais
/wa/\
msg=293601 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-24 11:20:06 | u=2788
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7157.msg281684#msg281684 date=1281106179]
If I am to say, say, "in his village", what happens if mì is juxtaposed with peyä tsray? Do we get an ambiguous *mì feyä tsray, or does the lenition "jump" to produce *mì peyä sray (which, of course, is also ambiguous) -- or is there no lenition at all? Same goes for things like "at the big tree": *ro sawla utral or *ro tsawla utral? Now, the situation can easily be avoided by reordering the words and/or cliticizing the adpositions -- and perhaps this is even mandated (or at least preferred) in such cases.
[/quote]
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/fmawno/]Tì'eyng poläheiem![/url] :)
msg=294172 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-08-25 04:12:44 | u=132
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Taronyu
Mipp, refer to this thread:
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/some-ipa-news/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/some-ipa-news/[/url]
msg=305407 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-08 17:23:29 | u=759
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
xMine
I'm really interested in the na'vi number system,
so I wanted to know if there is a way to say decimal numbers like 3.14.
Further I'm interested in dates:
Wouldn't be awesome to have a way to say dates nìNa’vi? Maybe this is
already stated somewhere above ;)
So:
1. Do the na'vi have something like months?
2. If yes, how many? They don't have to 12 months, it would be no surprise
at all, if they had like 8 months. (Actually I'd appreciate names other than
"first month", "second month", ... ;) )
3. How to say a date and time?
Not so important in my opinion:
4. Numbers larger than [desc=32767]kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin[/desc]
5. Negative numbers
6. Decimal numbers
Oeru txoa livu, txo tuteo srekrr pamawm...
Kìyevame
msg=305731 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-08 23:41:04 | u=6713
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Peyä Tìrol
There are some Terran languages without some of those concepts, alu negative values, fractional values, and even zero (which Na'vi at least has).
For months, I believe we use zìsìtvi, although we don't have a very clear understanding of Pandora's period around Polyphemus, or Polyphemus's period around ACA, and only Norm uses zìsìt, referring to Earth years. The best we can do, thus, is 1st month, 2nd month, and so on... July could be zìsìtvikive, etc.
msg=305923 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 09:41:40 | u=2788
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Payä Tìrol link=topic=7157.msg305731#msg305731 date=1283989264]
For months, I believe we use zìsìtvi, although we don't have a very clear understanding of Pandora's period around Polyphemus, or Polyphemus's period around ACA, and only Norm uses zìsìt, referring to Earth years. The best we can do, thus, is 1st month, 2nd month, and so on... July could be zìsìtvikive, etc.[/quote]
On that note:
[quote=Frommer]Zìsìtviri lì’u lu sìltsan, slä vay set ke pole’un oel tseyä ralit. Kxawm livu “month,” slä kxawm kop livu “season.” Zene oe pive’un ye’rìn.[/quote]
msg=305928 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 10:04:30 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[font=Georgia]According to Taronyu’s Dictionary we have zìsìkrr for »season« now…
msg=305938 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 10:25:52 | u=2788
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg305928#msg305928 date=1284026670]
[font=Georgia]According to Taronyu’s Dictionary we have zìsìkrr for »season« now…
[/quote]
Yeah, that was revealed in a Na'viteri post in the middle of July, but the quote above is from an email sent just a couple of weeks ago. There may be nuances of meaning involved.
msg=305983 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 12:43:48 | u=132
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Taronyu
For those who want what I consider the most detailed analysis of Pandoran astronomy (which deals with month, day, week times), go here:
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/trrtxonteri/]http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/trrtxonteri/[/url]
msg=305987 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 13:12:27 | u=6713
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Peyä Tìrol
Yup, I was more referring to that we don't know really how long those periods would be, from an Earth sense, just the names of some of those periods...
msg=306143 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 17:14:34 | u=2909
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Kayrìlion
[quote author=xMine link=topic=7157.msg305407#msg305407 date=1283966609]
I'm really interested in the na'vi number system,
so I wanted to know if there is a way to say decimal numbers like 3.14.
[/quote]
The trick with non-integral numbers in Na'vi is that because they have an octal system to begin with, what we think of as "decimal places" could only exist within a hypothetical Na'vi system as "octal places", where the first number after the period is the number of eighths, the second number is the number of sixty-fourths, the third is the number of five-hundred-twelfths, and so on.
You can do the math to figure it out, but to be honest, the Na'vi themselves have no need for a way to represent non-integral numbers that are not simple fractions like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc. Because I'm REALLY bored, I bothered to figure out part of that sample number for you if you're really curious, but yeah...the Na'vi would never do this. It's just not necessary for their culture.
[spoiler]The number 3.14 (I'm assuming you actually mean "three and fourteen hundredths" and NOT some rounding of Pi) would have to be represented as:
Three wholes (3), leaving (0.14 decimal)
One eighth (0.125), leaving (0.015 decimal)
Zero sixty-fourths (a sixty-fourth is 0.015625)
Seven five-hundred-twelfths (0.013671875), leaving (0.001328125 decimal)
Five four-thousand-ninety-sixths (0.001220703125), leaving (0.000107421875 decimal)
Three thirty-two-thousand-seven-hundred-sixty-eighths (0.000091552734375), leaving (0.000015869140625 decimal)
I could continue, because, since the number can be represented as a fraction, it will eventually develop a repeating period, but the Windows calculator doesn't display any more digits, so you're going to get an approximation. [/spoiler]
3.14 decimal is approximately 3.10753 octal.
Kayrìlien
msg=306171 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 17:47:53 | u=73
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Prrton
[quote author=Kayrìlien link=topic=7157.msg306143#msg306143 date=1284052474]
[quote author=xMine link=topic=7157.msg305407#msg305407 date=1283966609]
I'm really interested in the na'vi number system,
so I wanted to know if there is a way to say decimal numbers like 3.14.
[/quote]
The trick with non-integral numbers in Na'vi is that because they have an octal system to begin with, what we think of as "decimal places" could only exist within a hypothetical Na'vi system as "octal places", where the first number after the period is the number of eighths, the second number is the number of sixty-fourths, the third is the number of five-hundred-twelfths, and so on.
You can do the math to figure it out, but to be honest, the Na'vi themselves have no need for a way to represent non-integral numbers that are not simple fractions like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc. Because I'm REALLY bored, I bothered to figure out part of that sample number for you if you're really curious, but yeah...the Na'vi would never do this. It's just not necessary for their culture.
[spoiler]The number 3.14 (I'm assuming you actually mean "three and fourteen hundredths" and NOT some rounding of Pi) would have to be represented as:
Three wholes (3), leaving (0.14 decimal)
One eighth (0.125), leaving (0.015 decimal)
Zero sixty-fourths (a sixty-fourth is 0.015625)
Seven five-hundred-twelfths (0.013671875), leaving (0.001328125 decimal)
Five four-thousand-ninety-sixths (0.001220703125), leaving (0.000107421875 decimal)
Three thirty-two-thousand-seven-hundred-sixty-eighths (0.000091552734375), leaving (0.000015869140625 decimal)
I could continue, because, since the number can be represented as a fraction, it will eventually develop a repeating period, but the Windows calculator doesn't display any more digits, so you're going to get an approximation. [/spoiler]
3.14 decimal is approximately 3.10753 octal.
Kayrìlien
[/quote]
Very impressive, ma Kayrìlien!!
This math is so beyond my brain's ability that I can't even begin to explain.
I believe that we need "simple fractions" and that the Na'vi would have them à la something like [font=Candara]«°3pxì|°5ta», and I've proposed things like this in the (distant) past to K. Pawl, but no answers yet. This is a good opportunity to bring it up again, but I agree that full on mathematics (like the Mayan system, for example) would be unlikely within Na'vi society/arts. I also expect that he might create a unique root for "half" an 1/4 and 3/4 might end up roughly abstracted and mapped to something like [font=Candara]«hì’pxì» and [font=Candara]«txampxì» (which we already have). But, these are just guesses on my part.
Thanks so much for all the rigor. I personally really appreciate (and admire) it. ;D
msg=306183 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 18:09:50 | u=2909
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Kayrìlion
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7157.msg306171#msg306171 date=1284054473]
[quote author=Kayrìlien link=topic=7157.msg306143#msg306143 date=1284052474][spoiler]
[quote author=xMine link=topic=7157.msg305407#msg305407 date=1283966609][spoiler]
I'm really interested in the na'vi number system,
so I wanted to know if there is a way to say decimal numbers like 3.14.[/spoiler]
[/quote]
The trick with non-integral numbers in Na'vi is that because they have an octal system to begin with, what we think of as "decimal places" could only exist within a hypothetical Na'vi system as "octal places", where the first number after the period is the number of eighths, the second number is the number of sixty-fourths, the third is the number of five-hundred-twelfths, and so on.
You can do the math to figure it out, but to be honest, the Na'vi themselves have no need for a way to represent non-integral numbers that are not simple fractions like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc. Because I'm REALLY bored, I bothered to figure out part of that sample number for you if you're really curious, but yeah...the Na'vi would never do this. It's just not necessary for their culture.
[spoiler]The number 3.14 (I'm assuming you actually mean "three and fourteen hundredths" and NOT some rounding of Pi) would have to be represented as:
Three wholes (3), leaving (0.14 decimal)
One eighth (0.125), leaving (0.015 decimal)
Zero sixty-fourths (a sixty-fourth is 0.015625)
Seven five-hundred-twelfths (0.013671875), leaving (0.001328125 decimal)
Five four-thousand-ninety-sixths (0.001220703125), leaving (0.000107421875 decimal)
Three thirty-two-thousand-seven-hundred-sixty-eighths (0.000091552734375), leaving (0.000015869140625 decimal)
I could continue, because, since the number can be represented as a fraction, it will eventually develop a repeating period, but the Windows calculator doesn't display any more digits, so you're going to get an approximation. [/spoiler]
3.14 decimal is approximately 3.10753 octal.
Kayrìlien
[/spoiler]
[/quote]
Very impressive, ma Kayrìlien!!
This math is so beyond my brain's ability that I can't even begin to explain.
I believe that we need "simple fractions" and that the Na'vi would have them à la something like [font=Candara]«°3pxì|°5ta», and I've proposed things like this in the (distant) past to K. Pawl, but no answers yet. This is a good opportunity to bring it up again, but I agree that full on mathematics (like the Mayan system, for example) would be unlikely within Na'vi society/arts. I also expect that he might create a unique root for "half" an 1/4 and 3/4 might end up roughly abstracted and mapped to something like [font=Candara]«hì’pxì» and [font=Candara]«txampxì» (which we already have). But, these are just guesses on my part.
Thanks so much for all the rigor. I personally really appreciate (and admire) it. ;D
[/quote]
I definitely agree with you about needing simple fractions. I'm sure that even in a highly communal society, the Na'vi have undoubtedly run into the situation of "Well, there are fifteen hunters and five sturmbeest carcasses...how do we divide up the meat?" and probably just counted things out. Even without a formal number system, they would definitely be able to divide things up fairly, and even then, with such loose definitions of personal ownership in their society, I can't fathom an argument breaking out because "Hey! Tsu'tey got more meat than I did!" They're more giving than that.
I'm not a language expert by any means, but do you know if "half" has its own root in languages besides English? Like...all of our other fractions are just based on the numbers themselves (or their Latin roots), but as far as I know, "half" is sort of a special case.
Hehe...thanks for complementing my "I'm really bored so why not?" math. I can imagine the scientist in Grace upon finding out the Na'vi number system is octal going a bit haywire. "Let's see, if there are ten to the twelfth connections between the trees, that'd be eight to the...uh...hmm, six, seven, eight, no, but that's really ten...eleven...Aaargh, I can't figure this out! Guys, who's got my God damn cigarette!"
Kayrìlien
msg=306207 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 18:51:32 | u=73
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Prrton
[quote author=Kayrìlien link=topic=7157.msg306183#msg306183 date=1284055790]
I'm not a language expert by any means, but do you know if "half" has its own root in languages besides English? Like...all of our other fractions are just based on the numbers themselves (or their Latin roots), but as far as I know, "half" is sort of a special case.
[/quote]
for "half":
- Japanese has 半分, "half part" which they got from Chinese. The simple han element combines with lots of other things for the same meaning too.
- Spanish has mitad.
- Thai has ครึ่ง (khreung/khrụ̀ng)
- Korean has 반 (ban) that also comes from Chinese.
- Catalan has meitat, which comes down from Latin like the Spanish mitad.
- Swahili has nusu.
- Irish has leath.
Half is a very handy thing to have. I don't know what Japanese and Korean had before the Chinese influence, but I imagine it was 'something'. ;)
msg=306230 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-09 19:25:24 | u=6713
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Peyä Tìrol
Chinese also does that whole x分之y ("divided between") thing, which works like y/x
I could see Na'vi using something similar.
msg=309324 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-13 20:19:47 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
So, i was thinking this morning, we need a way to talk about asking/giving permission, e.g.,
"May i go hunt?"
"Yes, you may."
Since English at least often uses "may" and "can" somewhat interchangeably, it's possible that tsun will get drafted for this task. Still, i'd like a definitive answer.
msg=309369 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-13 20:47:05 | u=1550
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Taras
In russian we use one word for "can" and "may". Maybe in Na'vi we also can use tsun for both this words :)
msg=309390 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-13 21:09:38 | u=4754
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
`Eylan Ayfalulukanä
I agree with most others for words for simple fractions. 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4th would cover most needs. A word for fraction bar would be interesting and useful to us, but how useful to a Na`vi?
We also have generic fractional term - hapxì. Decimals? Again, useful to us, probably not a concept the Na`vi have.
But functional math-- that is truly interesting to think about. Since they have a pretty complete number system (which includes zero), they probably have the ability to at minimum add and subtract. Whether they can do more math, like multiply and divide, is almost a James Cameron question. But it wouldn't surprise me if they can.
If they can do the basic 'four function' math, then I bet they are aware of the concept of pi. This is something that would be immediately useful in constructing almost anything that is round. That said, it would almost certainly be a fraction and not a decimal, and probably a fairly crude one (by our standards) at that.
Beyond pi, I doubt they have much in the way of higher math. One possibility though, might be a means to extract a square or cube root. Such calculations were vital to the construction of siege engines. I think it had something to do with the diameter of sinew bundles (used as torsion springs) as it related to some other aspect of the machine's design. This was so important to the early military designers that they built a simple mechanical device for extracting cube roots. If I recall, it looked like a carpenter's square of some sort, and was somehow laid over a line drawn on something. The users of this device did not understand they were extracting a cube root. Instead, they had apparently learned this particular relationship through trial and error measurements, and made a tool that allowed them to easily figure out this dimension for other sized components.
msg=309412 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-13 21:28:12 | u=6582
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
lapo lesxkxawng
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7157.msg309390#msg309390 date=1284412178]
I agree with most others for words for simple fractions. 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4th would cover most needs. A word for fraction bar would be interesting and useful to us, but how useful to a Na`vi?
[/quote]
Probably not as useful as fko might think, as the Na'vi don't write. However, a good way to be able to speak fractions in Na'vi would be nice (e.g. ½ = 'Aw... mune, or ½ = Mune...'Aw).
[quote author=`Eylan Ayfalulukanä link=topic=7157.msg309390#msg309390 date=1284412178]
If they can do the basic 'four function' math, then I bet they are aware of the concept of pi.
[/quote]
That sounds like quite a leap, even for the sawtute on 'Rrta. I'm almost certain a Na'vi would be able to conceptualize fractions before decimals, and even before some advanced number like [desc=Even an approximation]π[/desc]. What made you think that?
msg=309490 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 00:18:24 | u=6713
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Peyä Tìrol
The concept of pi? Sure, but perhaps not in any more detail than "to pxey lu nì'it txan" :P
There is also a slight difference between may and can in English too. May implies permission, while can implies ability, although this distinction is mostly blurred now.
msg=309579 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 02:54:21 | u=4754
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
`Eylan Ayfalulukanä
[quote author=Payä Tìrol link=topic=7157.msg309490#msg309490 date=1284423504]
The concept of pi? Sure, but perhaps not in any more detail than "to pxey lu nì'it txan" :P
[/quote]
Perhaps you really mean to pxey lu nì'it hì`i ???
I could see the concept of pi (rather than pi itself) becoming apparent when someone is say, preparing sheets of leather to wrap around a drum frame. Perhaps over time, they noticed that amount of leather required was just a bit over three times the diameter of the drum frame. To make it easier to make drums, maybe they figured out that (and this is a bit of a stretch) that they need 22 units of leather for every seven units of drum diameter. They may have even made a tool that calculates this relationship similar to the tool I described earlier, which extracts a cube root. As far as understanding the concept of pi as a very important transcendental number, that is reserved for my fictitious high-tech Na`vi tribe living mostly underground on the other side of Pandora :-X
msg=309588 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 03:14:05 | u=6713
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Peyä Tìrol
I meant "pi" to pxey lu nì'it txan... pi is slightly greater than 3. I'm pretty sure to always attaches to the thing being compared against in the manner an adposition would.
msg=309619 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 05:27:59 | u=4754
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
`Eylan Ayfalulukanä
[quote author=Payä Tìrol link=topic=7157.msg309588#msg309588 date=1284434045]
I meant "pi" to pxey lu nì'it txan... pi is slightly greater than 3. I'm pretty sure to always attaches to the thing being compared against in the manner an adposition would.
[/quote]
The way you originally worded it, the comparison was not obvious, and I treated to as simply 'than'. So to me, it read 'Than three be slightly larger', which meant to me that pi was inferred as being less than 3.
msg=309626 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 06:25:08 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[font=Georgia]I don’t see the need for higher math… zero, as far as I remember was a convenience for us ›Earthlings‹ to be able to tell phone numbers…
Honestly, I don’t see why the Na’vi would need that.
A kinship paradigm, the spacial directions (north, east, south, west etc.) and verbs are far more important tì’efumì oeyä
msg=309844 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 15:37:02 | u=6713
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Peyä Tìrol
Yeah, mixing English and Na'vi doesn't always work as intended :/
Also, I was kind of surprised when I found that 0 was represented in Na'vi, considering they don't seem that big on mathematics, which almost seems like a prerequisite for 0, on Earth at least. It makes much more sense to me if it falls under the same umbrella as 8 and 9...
msg=310051 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 19:31:26 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
I have a new thought—about thought, actually.
In English, we have the questions "What do you think?" and "What are you thinking?", which, maddeningly enough, don't mean the same thing.
"What do you think?" is short for "What do you think of/about X"—what are your thoughts on a specific topic?
"What are you thinking?" is a more general question, akin to "What's on your mind?"
In [desc=I think. Francophones, please correct me]French[/desc], the former is covered with Qu'est-ce que tu penses? and the latter with Qu'en penses-tu? (although, for the former, one can also ask Comment tu trouves X?—lit., How do you find X?)
(And then, of course, there's also "What were you thinking?", which is more of a "you did something really stupid and i can't imagine how you thought it was a good plan" thing, but we can tackle that idiom some other day...)
So, how do we ask these questions in Na'vi?
If we don't already have answers, i would like to humbly put forth my own suggestions:
"What do you think [ of X ]?" could be conveyed with [ X-ìri ] fyape fpìl nga?—although you could make a case for going the French route and saying X-it pefya ngal run?
Then, for "What are you thinking?", i'd say either Ngari aysäfpìl lu peu?, or the somewhat more idiomatic Ngari aysäfpìlìl tok pesengit?
So, what do you think, ma smuktu?
Ngaytxoa if this has already been covered; i looked but didn't find it anywhere.
Edit: Went in and fixed a spelling error. This is what happens when my brain runs on autopilot...
msg=310054 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 19:40:11 | u=1746
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Carborundum
[quote author=Kì'eyawn link=topic=7157.msg310051#msg310051 date=1284492686]
STUFF
[/quote]
I've actually raised this very question a few times before, but never gotten a satisfactory answer.
I'm all for including it in the workshop, obviously.
msg=310236 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 22:45:55 | u=2788
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Lance R. Casey
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg309626#msg309626 date=1284445508]
[font=Georgia]the spacial directions (north, east, south, west etc.)
[/quote]
This should indeed be a priority. Here's some extended context:
Klingon does not have four cardinal directions, but three: chan, 'ev and tIng. The first is, simply, due east. The other two are, more or less, 40 degrees west of north and south, respectively, so it's not quite as simple as a division into thirds. To get more specific, any of these terms can be combined, e.g. 'ev tIng or tIng 'ev would signify due west (the middle of 'ev and tIng) etc. Also, as with other directional words in Klingon, these are not actually directions per se, but rather nouns carrying the notion of "area toward the east" and so on, so they are used in a genitive relationship with something else. For example, "I saw the eastern sky grow dark" would be rendered as HurghchoH chan chal 'e' vIlegh (lit. "I saw the sky of the area to the east grow dark").
Turning back to our own world, the Sámi have (or at least originally had) a different basic conception. If you look in a North Sámi-Swedish dictionary, you might find lulip with the meaning "east", oarjip for "south", alip for "west", and nuortap for "north". However, if you looked in the corresponding Norwegian dictionary instead, the same words (or variants thereof) would stand for different directions! But how come?
Well, the answer can be sought in that the underlying concepts are more relative than they are absolute. Even within Sweden, as much is evident from the maps of the mountain areas, where there are a number of places where a feature designated alip is situated directly north of its lulip counterpart. Much of Sámi society has been centered around the reindeer for hundreds of years, and they move up into and down from the mountains with the seasons. In northern Sweden, the rivers rise in the west (the Scandinavian Mountains making up the border to Norway, as well as the central watershed of the peninsula) and flow to the Gulf of Bothnia in the east, and their courses have long served as migration routes, directly or indirectly. So, rather than signifying "west" as such, alip is perhaps better thought of as "upstream the waterways, towards the mountains" and lulip "downstream the waterways, towards the sea" -- and if the river happens to be running in a north/south direction at a certain place, "irregularities" as per above can occur.
msg=310249 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 23:22:17 | u=3552
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
tigermind
Ma Lance, i just want to say that your Sámi example is the single coolest thing i've read all day.
msg=310251 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-14 23:34:23 | u=21
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
wm.annis
Also see: pp 250-254, especially the diagram on p.252, in this [url=http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~survey/documents/dissertations/golla-1970.pdf]Hupa Grammar[/url] for an even more complex system.
msg=310405 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-15 04:58:38 | u=6582
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
lapo lesxkxawng
[quote author=Plumps link=topic=7157.msg309626#msg309626 date=1284445508]
[font=Georgia]I don’t see the need for higher math… zero, as far as I remember was a convenience for us ›Earthlings‹ to be able to tell phone numbers…
Honestly, I don’t see why the Na’vi would need that.
A kinship paradigm, the spacial directions (north, east, south, west etc.) and verbs are far more important tì’efumì oeyä
[/quote]
Mllte nìwotx. Irayo for getting it across, ma Plumps.
msg=310443 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-15 07:53:46 | u=631
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Plumps83
[font=Georgia]And there I thought I over reacted 8) Don’t get me wrong, I see the usefulness of halves, quarters and so on and I don’t want to play down the Na’vi’s ability for higher mathematics. Look at the old Egyptians, Mayans, Aztec and so on… Their maths, especially for calculating star constellations is amazingly precise! Then again, that was knowledge only known to the ruling or priest-like class.
Ma Lance, ma William,
I was reminded of that again by reading the NYT [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html?_r=1]article[/url] that K. Pawl suggested in his latest blog, the directional system of the Guugu Yimithirr people really racked my brain … but in a good way :D
The Klingon system is indeed interesting and I couldn’t remember one bit having read that anywhere when I dealt with the language.
The Hupa text is highly interesting.
On a similar note, I remember that the dwarves in Tolkien’s world orient(?) their maps eastwards which makes looking at a atxkxerel rather disorienting at first glance…
I know I ‘hated’ the Irish directional system although it’s not that complicated… They mostly differenciate between the speaker in motion or positional (similar to what we have in Na’vi with neto and mìso). But you also distinguish a movement away from the speaker and toward the speaker. So there are at least 3 words for e.g. ‘above’
Tá mé thuas. – I am above/on top.
Tá tú ag dul suas. – You go up.
Tá sé ag teacht anuas. – He comes down/from above.
So, although one root (*uas) remains the same, the meaning changes depending on the relative position of the speaker; and the verb you use. (Something like *tá mé ag dul anuas. would not be possible)
Same goes for ‘down’, ‘east’, ‘west/behind’ and ‘yonder’
Every time it’s confusing to me to think myself into that fpìlfya but it definitely makes you more aware of your surrounding…
msg=311362 | topic=7157 | board=99 | time=2010-09-16 20:43:13 | u=2788
Re: Combining Our Efforts II
Lance R. Casey
The subjects from this thread have now been collected into a [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/navi-language-workshop-the-poll-of-outstanding-questions/]poll[/url] which will run for three days. EVERYONE is encouraged to go there and vote upon which questions are the most important to request answers to.
In the meantime, this thread is locked.
msg=154683 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:45:01 | u=54
Just a few interesting little words.
Tiger
A couple words that got tossed in a response from Kawyu Pawl...
As a derivation, lesar means "useful".
What seems like the interjection "Well...", tse.
And a word skxom for chance, oppertunity.
lesar - adj. useful (fìtìkangkem layu lesar nìtxan frapor) (Stress assumed based off ALL other le- based derivations)
skxom - n. chance (pamrel sayi trray krr a skxom latsu oeru)
tse - intj. well (Tse... zene pivlltxe san pxìm tsafya lu sìk)
And another example of the -o suffix with ayupxareo (Some messages)
Also, if you write to Paul in Na'vi, it may delay the response a bit because he likes to respond in kind, but wants everything to be perfect before he sends it, so it can take time. Ironically, after responding to my email in Na'vi, he sent another message a few minutes later correcting something. I wouldn't bother mentioning this, except the correction itself carries some implications on usage.
He had said "Tsa'u kop krrnekx" but corrected it to "Tsakem kop krrnekx" because actions take time, not things or ideas. The implication I got off that is that if you know you are talking about something specific like actions, you shouldn't use the generic 'u.
msg=154699 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 21:59:04 | u=631
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Thanks so much for that - very .... lesar ;)
msg=154803 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:28:58 | u=54
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
Tiger
Ooh ooh, I forgot one little gem I've been wondering about and suspecting but is now confirmed.
As would be implied by the "srake" form, it does not need to be sentence final. I'd asked a question, and he repeated it before answering, but he worded it with srake first rather than srak last.
msg=154809 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:35:53 | u=0
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7166.msg154803#msg154803 date=1269300538]
Ooh ooh, I forgot one little gem I've been wondering about and suspecting but is now confirmed.
As would be implied by the "srake" form, it does not need to be sentence final. I'd asked a question, and he repeated it before answering, but he worded it with srake first rather than srak last.
[/quote]
Tse...that's just awesome. Srak, for me, is [desc=a bitch kitty]difficult[/desc] to render in final position.
msg=154815 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:39:09 | u=1225
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
neotrekkerz
So either srake at the start of the sentence, or srak at the end, but never in between?
msg=154818 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:43:29 | u=21
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
wm.annis
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7166.msg154803#msg154803 date=1269300538]As would be implied by the "srake" form, it does not need to be sentence final. I'd asked a question, and he repeated it before answering, but he worded it with srake first rather than srak last.[/quote]
Huh. I wonder what sort of implication can be worked into that. Maybe something like the German particle use of "ja"?
msg=154822 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-22 23:50:30 | u=54
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
Tiger
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7166.msg154815#msg154815 date=1269301149]
So either srake at the start of the sentence, or srak at the end, but never in between?
[/quote]More like... It can be at the start or end, we don't know if it can be in between (But TBH I don't see why not.)
msg=154989 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 04:49:57 | u=1120
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
roger
Can you quote the question, so that we can see srake in action at the beginning of a clause?
msg=155001 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 05:02:13 | u=54
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
Tiger
Nothing terribly exciting about it...
Me: Cun ga clivam fayupxare leNa'vi ftu ayoe nìftue srak?
Pawl: Srake cun oe fayupxaret clivam nìftue?
Not a direct "san...sìk" quote - his words repeating my question, asked to himself.
msg=155021 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 05:22:43 | u=1120
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
roger
Cool.
msg=155177 | topic=7166 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 10:34:24 | u=0
Re: Just a few interesting little words.
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7166.msg155001#msg155001 date=1269320533]
Me: Cun ga clivam fayupxare leNa'vi ftu ayoe nìftue srak?
Pawl: Srake cun oe fayupxaret clivam nìftue?
[/quote]
::sigh:: Scientific form.
msg=155093 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 07:17:32 | u=1120
misc. answers
roger
A few answers to my questions:
When asked which of several defs of 'responsible'
kllfro' is:
[quote]
Yes, it is a compound, and the first element is indeed kll 'ground.' But I haven't yet decided on what the fro' part means.
The idea is to be responsible for someone or something--that is, having s.o. or s.t. as your "job, duty, or area of concern" (as my desk dictionary puts it).
The line in the original script was Moat's, when she tells Neytiri that she (Neytiri) will be the one to ensure Jake's progress in learning the ways of the Na'vi:
Pori zene kllfrivo' nga. 'He is your responsibility.'
[/quote]
On what happens with infixing stressed syllabic C's:
[quote]
In a case like frrfen, where the stress is on frr, the ipfv remains frrfen:
frrfen (stress on 1st) + <er> --> *ferrrfen > frrfen
When the stress is not on the pseudovowel, however, it drops:
plltxe (stress on 2nd) + <ol> --> *pollltxe > poltxe
[/quote]
When asked about ay sometimes being a diphthong, and sometimes V+C:
[quote]
Keep in mind that ay, ey, aw, ew are diphthongs as well as VC's. (In tsawl, for example, you know the aw is a diphthong, because if it weren't, you'd have a syllable ending in two C's, which is prohibited.)
So the syllabification will tell you which you have. For example:
tswayon is tsway.on, indicating that the ay is a diphthong.
But layon is la.yon, indicating that the y is a consonant.
(I'm not sure there's much consequence to these distinctions--the pronunciations seem pretty much the same.)
Similar things hold for w.
[...]
In general, the tendency with VCV is to syllabify as V.CV rather than VC.V (assuming there's a choice--i.e., that C is one of the consonants that can appear in syllable-final position).
So the default is V.gV, as in mu.ge, a.u.gi.a, etc.
For 'egeg, the word may have originated as a reduplicated form: *'eg'eg < 'eg + 'eg, which would favor 'eg.eg.
Same with kagagag, which is clearly onomatopoetic: kag + ag + ag (a bang with two echos), hence kag.ag.ag. If you separated it as ka.ga.gag, it would lose the echo effect.
[/quote]
Thus several cases, such as
ayoe, where syllabification follows morphology rather than normal CVCV pattern. (I'd left that as another question, but it seems to be indirectly answered here.) It should be noted, however, that in practice Paul pronounces ayoe as /a.'jo.e/, not /aj.'o.e/ as he transcribes it, and that there is also liaison across word boundaries (ma sute Amerika /ma.'su.ta.'me.ri.ka/), so this is presumably only relevant for careful enunciation.
I'd asked about the pattern of the seder, where if I had done it, I would have had contrasting topic constructions:
[quote]
As for fìtxon vs. fìtxonìri, I considered your version but decided against it: all those "-ìri's" sounded too sing-songy to me. Since fìtxon, unadorned, can be used adverbially (i.e. 'tonight'), I think the form without the ending is justifiable.
So instead of:
As for all other nights, we do X; as for this night, we do Y
we have instead:
As for all other nights, we do X; (but) tonight we do Y
Both versions seem OK to me.
[/quote]
That is, the expected contrast between two topics may well be the grammatical norm, but was decided against here for stylistic reasons.
Confirmed that txll’u "hookagourd" is a legit word.
[quote]
It's a real word and a new root. You're right--the majority of the plant names are compounds (along the lines of "sunflower") but some are roots (like "rose," "crocus").
[/quote]
So no need to try to extract "hookah" and "gourd" from it! I'd only asked about this one word in that email, as it looked so obviously Na'vi. I don't know about several others; he hasn't gotten back to me on them.
msg=155181 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 10:43:22 | u=631
Re: misc. answers
Plumps83
[quote author=roger link=topic=7187.msg155093#msg155093 date=1269328652]
[quote]
In a case like frrfen, where the stress is on frr, the ipfv remains frrfen:
frrfen (stress on 1st) + <er> --> *ferrrfen > frrfen
When the stress is not on the pseudovowel, however, it drops:
plltxe (stress on 2nd) + <ol> --> *pollltxe > poltxe
[/quote][/quote]
[font=Garamond]Interesting bits! Thanks for sharing!!!
Do you know what happens if the imperfective merges with the subjunctive? Does this rule still hold true then? Or is it *firvrrfen? I can't quite see the linguistic reasons behind that, really... :-\\
Thanks for considering
msg=155246 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 12:47:54 | u=21
Re: misc. answers
wm.annis
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7187.msg155181#msg155181 date=1269341002]Do you know what happens if the imperfective merges with the subjunctive? Does this rule still hold true then? Or is it *firvrrfen? I can't quite see the linguistic reasons behind that, really...[/quote]
Firvrrfen is fine. The question has to do with phonotactics (what happens when certain sounds run into each other), the contraction of r + rr and l + ll. Since that doesn't happen in the firvrrfen example, it's not an issue.
msg=155302 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 13:58:10 | u=1120
Re: misc. answers
roger
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7187.msg155246#msg155246 date=1269348474]
Firvrrfen is fine. The question has to do with phonotactics (what happens when certain sounds run into each other), the contraction of r + rr and l + ll. Since that doesn't happen in the firvrrfen example, it's not an issue.
[/quote]
Yes, it's specifically *ferrrfen > frrfen because *rrr is not a legal syllable.
msg=155446 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 15:46:41 | u=1550
Re: misc. answers
Taras
[quote author=roger link=topic=7187.msg155302#msg155302 date=1269352690]
Yes, it's specifically *ferrrfen > frrfen because *rrr is not a legal syllable.
[/quote]
Pelun kea san ferfen sìk? Na plltxe + ol -> poltxe.
Why not "ferfen"? Like as plltxe + ol -> poltxe.
msg=155498 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 16:11:21 | u=401
Re: misc. answers
Harìghawnu
About ay/ey/aw/ew as diphthongs or VC, Frommer said, that
[quote]
I'm not sure there's much consequence to these distinctions--the pronunciations seem pretty much the same.[/quote]
Well ... it *does* matter in the case of arranging the words in a dictionary. Not, if you do it according to English rules, where e. g. "i" and "ì" or "a" and "ä" fall into the same category (which doesn't make sense from the Na'vi standpoint), but if you try to put the words in an alphabet, which takes respect to the Na'vi sound-system, "ay" as a diphthong is a separate sound, so that words starting with "ay" don't just get in the article about "a", but get their own article. The same about the other diphthongs and pseudovowels ("rr" isn't "r+r", and therefore to put between "rp" and "rs", it's a complete different sound, so it is placed *outside* (e. g. *after*) the other "r"s).
So, if you have an Na'vi alphabet like the one in our [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Vocabulary]wiki-vocabulary [/url], where e. g. the diphthong "ay" has it's own right apart from "a", uncertainties cause trouble. Example:
maw [maw] (Adp–) after (time).
mawey [ma.ˈwɛj] (Adj) calm.
mawkrr [maw.kr̩ː] (Adv) after (time), afterwards.
"Mawey" is given as maWEY, so it's clear, that the -aw- here isn't the diphthong. So according to the Na'vi alphabet, "mawey" should be put BEFORE "maw", because there the "aw" is the diphthong and the alphabetical order is: a, aw, ay. So any words, where there *is* -aw-, but *not* the "diphthong-aw", should preceed all words with "diphthong-aw"s. (Until now I didn't put "mawey" in front of the others, but to maintain consistency, it should be done.)
So in the case of sorting words in the dictionary correctly, the difference between the diphthong and the VC very well *has* consequences.
Of course, maybe this isn't a problem to many people, but just to the ones, who write the dictionaries, but to them it is. And since all the other people want to use the dictionaries, it may become a problem to them too, because they had to look up "mawey" not after, but before "maw".
msg=155514 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 16:22:39 | u=1120
Re: misc. answers
roger
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7187.msg155446#msg155446 date=1269359201]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7187.msg155302#msg155302 date=1269352690]
Yes, it's specifically *ferrrfen > frrfen because *rrr is not a legal syllable.
[/quote]
Pelun kea san ferfen sìk? Na plltxe + ol -> poltxe.
Why not "ferfen"? Like as plltxe + ol -> poltxe.
[/quote]
Because infixes are never stressed, and stress does not shift when a verb is infixed.
msg=155545 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 16:41:50 | u=1550
Re: misc. answers
Taras
Set tslolam, irayo. Ngian oeru kelaw lu fya'o a oe tsun tslilvam futa lì'u lu san frrfen sìk (luke san er sìk) fu san ferrrfen sìk.
Now understood, thanks. However not clear to me the way to can understand that word is "frrfen" (without "er") or "ferrrfen".
msg=155586 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 17:11:42 | u=1120
Re: misc. answers
roger
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7187.msg155545#msg155545 date=1269362510]
Set tslolam, irayo. Ngian oeru kelaw lu fya'o a oe tsun tslilvam futa lì'u lu san frrfen sìk (luke san er sìk) fu san ferrrfen sìk.
Now understood, thanks. However not clear to me the way to can understand that word is "frrfen" (without "er") or "ferrrfen".
[/quote]
In English, the past tense of "read" is "read". Context will tell. (Of course, that isn't much consolation to the language learner, any more than being told you really don't need to write vowels in Arabic is much help.)
msg=155794 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-23 19:32:03 | u=1225
Re: misc. answers
neotrekkerz
Great to know about frrfen, that had been bugging me for a while.
msg=156307 | topic=7187 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:01:01 | u=0
Re: misc. answers
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7187.msg155446#msg155446 date=1269359201]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7187.msg155302#msg155302 date=1269352690]
Yes, it's specifically *ferrrfen > frrfen because *rrr is not a legal syllable.
[/quote]
Pelun kea san ferfen sìk? Na plltxe + ol -> poltxe.
Why not "ferfen"? Like as plltxe + ol -> poltxe.
[/quote]
Nìeyawr nga poltxe!
msg=156360 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:19:24 | u=21
declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
wm.annis
A few refinements...
I asked, First, I say that "For declension, the diphthongs count as consonants. I'm 95% certain this is true (kifkeyit, etc.)
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]No, not quite. I hadn't written up the rule, but this is what I've been doing with diphthong-final N's, which feels right in my mouth and ear:
A: -ìl
P: -it, -ti
D: -ru, -ur
G: -ä
T: -ri
(I think I've been consistent, but if you come across places I haven't, please let me know.)
Sorry to give you a headache with this. One generalization is that the single-C allomorphs are out. Other than that, I guess it's some from Column A, some from Column B. Maybe you can find a way to convey this without having to take up space with another chart.
For the record, I went through the lexicon and found 19 diphthong-final N's:
-AW: fpxafaw, swizaw, taw, tìsraw
-AY: holpxay, nguway, reypay, tìngay, tsray, txampay, way, yemfpay
-EW: fahew, flew, txantstew
-EY: kifkey, kxeyey, tìrey, vey
(20 if we count tìletìngay. <g>)[/quote]
I asked, Second, I say that the near demonstrative is "fì-" (pl. "fay-", or just "fì-" with lenition); the distant demonstrative is "tsa-" (pl. tsay- or just "tsa-" with lenition).
I worry about the distal deixis prefix, because you have given ussa'u as a plural of tsa'u.
[quote]OK, except that for the plurals, there's no fì-/tsa- plus lenition option. That is,
fìketuwong 'this alien'
fayhetuwong 'these aliens'
tsaketuwong 'that alien'
tsayhetuwong 'those aliens'
But not *fìhetuwong, *tsahetuwong. (The nice thing about short plurals is that they save you a syllable; here that doesn't happen, so there's no raison d'être for the short forms with demonstratives.)
The plural of the stand-alone demonstrative pronoun tsa'u is (ay)sa'u, which follows the regular rules.
I don't see anything worrisome here, but if I'm missing something (which is entirely possible), let me know.[/quote]
When I asked for clarification about the pronouns,
[quote]Right. With the pronouns, the order of elements is ay+tsa+'u rather than the expected tsa+ay+'u, etc.[/quote]
msg=156546 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:17:01 | u=1120
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
roger
Great! That's half down. Now to figure out if the other PN's inflect like tsa'u or like the nouns.
And we do have a case of tsa+ lenition w/o the y.
msg=156550 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:19:05 | u=54
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
Tiger
I was actually talking to William about that case last night. Since it doesn't have shorten the word any like normal short plurals, it may be one of those cases of "Technically it may be correct, but why would you ever actually USE it, so don't... But I'll use it here for poetic license."
msg=156552 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:19:37 | u=21
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
wm.annis
[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156546#msg156546 date=1269472621]And we do have a case of tsa+ lenition w/o the y. [/quote]
Which he chalked up to differences in verse vs. prose. I didn't pursue that further. Discussions of poetic language can wait until we get some more prose grammar filled out, I think. :)
msg=156568 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:51:29 | u=1120
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
roger
and what's this noun vey that he mentions?
msg=156573 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:54:29 | u=21
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
wm.annis
[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156568#msg156568 date=1269474689]and what's this noun vey that he mentions? [/quote]
No idea. Hope it's a LEP word.
msg=156575 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:00:08 | u=0
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156568#msg156568 date=1269474689]
and what's this noun vey that he mentions?
[/quote]
Or flew?
msg=156576 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:01:09 | u=631
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
Plumps83
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7222.msg156360#msg156360 date=1269465564]
[quote="Karyu Pawl"]A: -ìl
P: -it, -ti
D: -ru, -ur
G: -ä
T: -ri
(I think I've been consistent, but if you come across places I haven't, please let me know.)
Sorry to give you a headache with this. One generalization is that the single-C allomorphs are out. [/quote][/quote]
[font=Garamond]Too late :P He's only talking about the diphthong cases here, right? Other than that the forms after vowel can remain -t and -r for patient and dative, kefyak?
[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156568#msg156568 date=1269474689]
and what's this noun vey that he mentions? [/quote]
[font=Garamond]There are a lot more words in there I have never seen before ...
reypay, tsray, txampay, flew, txantstew
msg=156578 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:04:07 | u=21
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
wm.annis
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7222.msg156576#msg156576 date=1269475269]Too late :P He's only talking about the diphthong cases here, right?[/quote]
Yes. It's all laid out in a chart in my [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/dense-navi-grammar-summary-(pdf)/]cheat sheet[/url].
msg=156599 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:24:05 | u=3552
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
tigermind
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7222.msg156576#msg156576 date=1269475269]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7222.msg156568#msg156568 date=1269474689]
and what's this noun vey that he mentions? [/quote]
[font=Garamond]There are a lot more words in there I have never seen before ...
reypay, tsray, txampay, flew, txantstew
[/quote]
reypay, "live-water"... medicine? (or, alternatively, alcohol?)
msg=156602 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:28:08 | u=1120
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
roger
the rest of those will be released over the next couple weeks.
msg=156610 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:34:30 | u=631
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]I officially call for the word for "tease" ;D
msg=156612 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:39:07 | u=0
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7222.msg156610#msg156610 date=1269477270]
[font=Garamond]I officially call for the word for "tease" ;D
[/quote]
"ronger?" :P
msg=156617 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:48:10 | u=3552
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
tigermind
Tìletìngay = truthfulness?
...does the <g> mean he's being sarcastic? Or is that seriously a word?
msg=156621 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:53:18 | u=54
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
Tiger
That would be the Na'vi translation of Stephen Colbert's "[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness]Truthiness[/url]". It is, like the English word, a tongue in cheek word.
msg=156623 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:56:54 | u=631
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
Plumps83
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7222.msg156612#msg156612 date=1269477547]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7222.msg156610#msg156610 date=1269477270]
[font=Garamond]I officially call for the word for "tease" ;D
[/quote]
"ronger?" :P[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
txantsana tìpe'un - pesu mìsyunge tsat Karyu Pawlur? ;D
Excellent decision - who suggests that to Frommer?
msg=156624 | topic=7222 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 01:04:53 | u=21
Re: declension of nouns ending in diphthongs; fì- and tsa-
wm.annis
[quote author=omängum fra'uti link=topic=7222.msg156621#msg156621 date=1269478398]
That would be the Na'vi translation of Stephen Colbert's "[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness]Truthiness[/url]". It is, like the English word, a tongue in cheek word.[/quote]
When Frommer told us we couldn't rely on freely using the derivational affixes, I emailed back "but I was so proud of tìletìngay!" and gave a hint at the intended sense. Had I been paying better attention, I would have removed that from this post. ;)
msg=156378 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 21:29:56 | u=132
About Subordination
Taronyu
So, I asked Frommer some questions. It's probably best to just paste both emails here:
[quote=Tarskxawngonyu]Relative clauses run by arranging their contents to the left or right of an a, sort of like adjectives. Now, with adjectives, I fpìl, but I'm not sure, that you can do this: txana txana trr lehrrap akawng "a very very dangerous bad day". Now, it makes sense to me that you should be able to do the same with relative clauses, but I can't seem to work out how that should work. From some examples, like when using a krr, you use a comma to end the subordinate clause - which I assume would mean an intonational pause. But does that mean that there isn't a lexical item to signal the end of a clause? I prepared the following sentence as an example of what I think we can do:
Utralmì a nantang ke namew fpilve' ikranur a mì saw 'upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsengit tamok fa nguway tìsusi.
What I had meant to say was: "The nantang, which is in the tree, did not want to send to the ikran in the sky messages which would show that he was there by howling." As you can see, it's a mess. Now, in English orthography, you need commas to properly show the embedded structures. What about in Na'vi? Does the above work? Thanks for helping to clear this up![/quote]
[quote=Frommer]Ma Taronyu,
Now THAT is a sentence! :-)
OK, let's see . . .
First of all, your premises are correct: RC's can precede or follow their heads just as adjectives can. (In fact, under some analyses, adjectives are simply reduced RC's: ikran atsawl < ikran a lu tsawl, just as an English phrase like "something strange" could be thought of as a reduced form of "something that is strange.")
You're also right that there's no lexical item to mark the end of a subordinate clause, although in speech, pauses and intonation would help. I haven't thought too much about whether written Na'vi should do something with punctuation, the way English does. But keep in mind that the situation with commas is complicated in English (and probably other languages, although I can't vouch for that) by the fact that there are restrictive/non-restrictive distinctions:
(1) The nantang that is in the tree is looking at you.
There are five nantangs around--I'm talking about the one in the tree. So this is a RESTRICTIVE RC.
(2) The nantang, which is in the tree, is looking at you.
There's only one nantang in the picture, and we've already identified it. "Which is in the tree" just gives additional, optional information. This is a NON-RESTRICTIVE RC.
Notice the differences in English: commas in one case but not the other, and, according to certain English teachers, the difference between "that" and "which." (That distinction is not always observed, even by good writers.)
Should Na'vi do something similar? I don't know. We'll see . . .
Now back to your phrase and sentence. You're basically correct on both. But looking at the details, I'd suggest the following revisions:
(3) txana txana trr lehrrap akawng
Keep in mind that "very" is nìtxan; "txan" means "much." So you can't use it this way. What you want is:
(4) kawnga trr lehrrap nìtxan nìtxan
(I'm not sure if Na'vi style allows the repeating of adjectives and adverbs for emphasis, as English does. I'll have to think about that.)
As for your monster:
(5) Utralmì a nantang ke namew fpilve' ikranur a mì saw 'upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsengit tamok fa nguway tìsusi.
I don't think it's that much of a mess--it's actually pretty good! Just a few suggestions:
(a) After "new," you usually use the simple subjunctive: fpive'
(b) If you want "messages," then it's upxaret, not 'upxaret
(c) "There" is tsatseng
(d) In this case I'd use terok rather than tamok: you're not talking about a point in time but rather about something that extended over a period. In fact, if you translated tok as "occupy," then you'd be likely to say "the place he was occupying," which makes the imperfective nature of the verb clear.
(e) To nominalize si-construction verbs where the non-verbal part is a noun, see if you can get away with just using the noun. In this case, I'd drop the last word.
With all the revisions:
(6) Utralmì a nantang ke namew fpive' ikranur a mì saw upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsatsengit terok fa nguway.
A complicated sentence, but definitely grammatical. (Just so I understand, though: The nantang got up into the tree by howling? How did that happen? And can nantangs climb trees anyway? <g>)[/quote]
msg=156535 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:03:41 | u=73
Re: About Subordination
Prrton
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7224.msg156378#msg156378 date=1269466196]
[quote=Frommer]
With all the revisions:
(6) Utralmì a nantang ke namew fpive' ikranur a mì saw upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsatsengit terok fa nguway.
A complicated sentence, but definitely grammatical. (Just so I understand, though: The nantang got up into the tree by howling? How did that happen? And can nantangs climb trees anyway? <g>)[/quote]
[/quote]
Does this fix the ambiguity about the role of the howling?
Utralmì a nantang ke namew fa nguway fpive' ikranur a mì saw upxaret a tsìyun wivìntxu futa pol tsatsengit terok.
Seems to for me, or am I missing something?
msg=156540 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:07:25 | u=54
Re: About Subordination
Tiger
Oh that makes MUCH more sense!
msg=156563 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:44:39 | u=132
Re: About Subordination
Taronyu
That would work. I was trying to highlight that both constructions could be grammatical, currently, as we don't have a complex system for clause placement work out. Yours does make more sense, however, but it's not necessarily how the Na'vi would do it.
I think the main thing to take away is that we can stack clauses, and that there's no marker given for them if this is done. I've been curious about this, before.
msg=156570 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-24 23:52:20 | u=54
Re: About Subordination
Tiger
I actually came across an interesting situation relating to subordination. I was writing a sentence out "Oel futa tì'awve nìftue lu fpìl" which as I understand should be perfectly fine... Then I realized that I could have just dropped the oel because it was in the prior clause. But then suddenly "Futa tì'awve nìftue lu fpìl" seemed ambiguous if it meant "tì'awve fpìl" or "oel fpìl". I mean contextually here it's obvious, but if it were a different sentence, it might not have been so. For example.
Oe ngaru polawm. Futa ngal tì'eyngit omum fpìl.
Are you thinking it or am I thinking it?
msg=156581 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:06:39 | u=631
Re: About Subordination
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Maybe in a situation like this the topic marker comes to the rescue... Once attached to oe in the first sentence it remains the understood subject/topic of the follow-up sentence... just a wild guess ;)
msg=156584 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:09:01 | u=54
Re: About Subordination
Tiger
Right that's how it normally would be, but because the subordinate is wholly contained within the main clause before the verb, does IT then give the contextual subject, or does the prior sentence?
msg=156596 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:20:30 | u=631
Re: About Subordination
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Honestly ... I have no idea...
Seems like in these cases word order is not that free as we'd like to think ... Perhaps in these cases the verb of the main clause needs to be placed at the beginning as an introduction, even if it's just fpìl...
msg=156600 | topic=7224 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 00:25:10 | u=54
Re: About Subordination
Tiger
Well the sentence works just fine if oel is in there, just without it I'm not sure which it would mean.
msg=156629 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 01:22:27 | u=1920
if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'
willphase
Triggered by discussion [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/beginners/if/]here[/url] about 'if'...
[quote=me]
My question is whether 'if' can be used as a replacement for 'whether', as in English.
Consider the sentence:
'Tell me if you want to live'
This could be interpreted as:
'Tell me whether you want to live (or not)'
or
'Tell me! ...and if you don't, you won't live'
So my question is - can txo be used in this same way, or is there another word for 'whether' in Na'vi that we just don't know yet?
[/quote]
[quote=frommer]
You ask a good question. "Whether" is an important word. And your analysis of "Tell me if you want to live"--that is, that it has two distinct meanings--is right on the money.
You're right--you can't use "txo" for all instances of English "whether."
Here are some examples:
(1) He asked whether Sally left.
That's an indirect question. The direct version, of course, is:
(2) He asked, "Did Sally leave?"
[BTW, as you probably know, some speakers of non-standard English use similar structures for direct and indirect questions. Those speakers would say, instead of (1),
(3) He asked did Sally leave.]
Anyway, in Na'vi we only use the direct form. So the sentence becomes:
(4) Polawm po san srake Säli holum sìk.
And no "whether" is required.
As for "Tell me whether you want to live (or not)," there's a different structure:
We use "ftxey . . . fuke," as in:
Piveng oer ftxey nga new rivey fuke. (Fuke is stressed on the 2nd syllable: fu.KE)
"Ftxey," which is also the verb "choose," is here a conjunction corresponding to "whether." And "fuke" clearly means "or not," which you can't omit in Na'vi.
"Ftxey . . . fuke" can also be used in direct questions. For "Are you coming?" we usually say:
(5) Srake nga za'u?
But there's another version, which corresponds more closely to "Are you coming or not?"
(6) Ftxey nga za'u fuke?
Hope that's all clear!
[/quote]
Deconstructed sentences because I find them useful...
Polawm po san srake Säli holum sìk
P<ol>awm po san srake Säli h<ol>um sìk
ask[PERF] 3 quote yes/no Sally leave[PERF] unquote
He asked "has Sally left?"
Piveng oer ftxey nga new rivey fuke
P<iv>eng oe-r ftxey nga new r<iv>ey fuke
Tell[SUBJ] 1-DAT choose 2 want live[SUBJ] or not
Tell me, you choose want to live or not.
Will
msg=156631 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 01:27:07 | u=21
Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'
wm.annis
Lot's of magnificent info here.
msg=156671 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 02:49:04 | u=1225
Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'
neotrekkerz
Wondering about "Are you coming or not?" It can be answered with a yes/no, so shouldn't there be a srak there?
Also, it could just be an error, but shouldn't we have <er> for both of those questions?
msg=156681 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 02:58:15 | u=1120
Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'
roger
"Srake" is contracted "yes-no?". "Fuke" is contracted "or-not?" So I could see them emerging in parallel.
msg=156917 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 10:33:44 | u=132
Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'
Taronyu
Really cool. What I wonder is how would you say:
Tell me whether you are going to stay or are going to the mall.
I assume just ftxey...fu. But I'm not sure.
Also, NeotrekkerZ, I'm not sure that it would take <er>. Note that English does, but it's actually future tense.
msg=157579 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:14:31 | u=1225
Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'
neotrekkerz
[quote]Tell me whether you are going to stay or are going to the mall.
I assume just ftxey...fu. But I'm not sure.[/quote]
I think you would have to use ftxey...fuke twice and translate it literally as "Tell me whether or not your going to stay and/or whether or not you're going to the mall. But that is a little cumbersome.
It is actually future tense. My English blinded me there. A better question would then be why no infixes there.
msg=157611 | topic=7238 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:32:17 | u=1120
Re: if vs whether - 'ftxey...fuke'
roger
I would assume that ftxey kä fuke is short for ftxey kä fu ke kä. If so, we'd expect a more general construction of ftxey ... fu ... as in ftxey kä fu za'u "are you coming or going?" and oe ke tslam futa ftxey kä fu za'u "I don't know if I'm coming or going".
msg=157232 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 16:14:11 | u=1751
new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
blueme
Kaltxì, ma frapo!
Great news! Here's some new vocab
nìyey pa’liyä kxata (
stress):
| Na’vi | | English |
|
|
| flew | | throat |
| kxa | | mouth |
| nikre | | hair |
| pewn | | neck |
| re’o | | head |
| sre’ | | tooth |
| tanhì | | bioluminescent freckle (also star) |
| tsuksìm | | chin |
| key | | face |
Awesome stuff! Yay! :D
msg=157309 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 16:52:53 | u=1120
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
roger
I wonder what nikre really means, since the Na'vi and other Pandoran mammals don't have hair? How do we distinguish 'a hair' from 'hair'? Or is the latter aynikre?
msg=157322 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 17:02:51 | u=132
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Taronyu
These are great! Thanks.
Was it Prrton who first suggested tanhì for freckle? Whoever did, pretty awesome.
msg=157329 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 17:06:56 | u=1120
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
roger
No, that was Mirri tsrräfkxätu.
msg=157452 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:03:41 | u=54
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Tiger
Added sample pronunciations to my list :D (Not 100% happy with all of these pronunciations though)
| Na’vi | | English |
|
|
| [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/flew.mp3]flew[/url] | | throat |
| [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/kxa.mp3]kxa[/url] | | mouth |
| [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/nikre.mp3]nikre[/url] | | hair |
| [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/pewn.mp3]pewn[/url] | | neck |
| [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/re%27o.mp3]re’o[/url] | | head |
| [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/sre%27.mp3]sre’[/url] | | tooth |
| [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/tanh%c3%ac.mp3]tanhì[/url] | | bioluminescent freckle (also star) |
| [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/tsuks%c3%acm.mp3]tsuksìm[/url] | | chin |
| [url=http://www.tyger.org/~tiger/navi/w325/key.mp3]key[/url] | | face |
msg=157461 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:07:20 | u=1751
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
blueme
[quote]Was it Prrton who first suggested tanhì for freckle? Whoever did, pretty awesome.
No, that was Mirri.
[/quote]
No, it was me! :D And now it's official! Unbelievable!
[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg157309#msg157309 date=1269535973]
I wonder what nikre really means, since the Na'vi and other Pandoran mammals don't have hair?
[/quote]
That's a good question. Pawl didn't say specifically, but seeing how all these body parts are connected to the head, I'd say that it's for the hair (or whatever it is) that grows on the Na’vi's scalp.
msg=157483 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:22:20 | u=1120
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
roger
Oops! I think I have a freckled brain.
Paul did not release nikre as a 'head' word, so that's only an assumption on our part. All he had was "hair N".
msg=157485 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:23:15 | u=631
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]First of all: Great!!!
Also, I think it was Na'rìghawnu who talked about "neck" in the LEP ... reminding us that it means the whole part of your body between head and 'shoulders' as well as the extention from your back upwards, while German (and I guess other languages as well...) distinguish between rear part of the neck (dt. "Nacken") and the 'whole thing' (dt. "Hals")
Too bad there isn't a finer distinction... or maybe it is still to come :)
EDIT: just recognised ... Tirea Aean pointed out ngäng = stomach from the [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/frommerian-words-from-nytimes-6442/msg155220/#msg155220]NYT article [/url] That should be added
msg=157497 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:30:23 | u=5561
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Mjllonir
May I ask for a source from where you got these? Just curious ;)
msg=157522 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:45:30 | u=132
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Taronyu
[quote author=Unilfwewyu link=topic=7265.msg157497#msg157497 date=1269541823]
May I ask for a source from where you got these? Just curious ;)
[/quote]
Frommer. :)
msg=157526 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 18:49:00 | u=5561
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Mjllonir
Oh cool! We can send him e-mails? So awesome XD!
msg=157589 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:18:48 | u=0
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Swoka Swizaw
Heh heh...flew. (There it is.)
Apparently, though, Frommer is saving hand for a really good time (considering that we have a word for "arm," "elbow," and "finger" already down). Eywa love 'im, though.
msg=157621 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 19:36:22 | u=1751
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
blueme
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7265.msg157485#msg157485 date=1269541395]
Also, I think it was Na'rìghawnu who talked about "neck" in the LEP ... reminding us that it means the whole part of your body between head and 'shoulders' as well as the extention from your back upwards, while German (and I guess other languages as well...) distinguish between rear part of the neck (dt. "Nacken") and the 'whole thing' (dt. "Hals")[/quote]
English too differentiates between nape (back of the neck), throat (front part), and neck (the whole thing.) We just don't have a word for nape yet.
msg=157709 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 20:27:24 | u=631
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]I stand corrected ;)
Thanks for telling me - good to know that there is still something to learn in English for me :D
So that would speak for a more general term (neck) with differenciations for nape and throat ...
msg=157915 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-25 23:32:35 | u=5436
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Feiane
I think "throat" refers to the INSIDE
as in "back of the throat"
as in the top of one's esophagus
msg=157945 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 00:14:32 | u=1120
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
roger
it's both
msg=157949 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 00:21:18 | u=1751
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
blueme
[quote author=Feiane link=topic=7265.msg157915#msg157915 date=1269559955]
I think "throat" refers to the INSIDE
as in "back of the throat"
as in the top of one's esophagus
[/quote]
So... when I cut yer throat, I need to reach in first? Yarrr! ;D
msg=157969 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 01:06:01 | u=1225
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
neotrekkerz
Not necessarily, consider the sentence "I grabbed him by the throat." You're obviously not going inside there.
msg=157975 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 01:19:02 | u=1120
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
roger
(i think she was kidding)
msg=157995 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 01:51:51 | u=1751
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
blueme
She was indeed! She can't help it. She now apologizes. :D
msg=158029 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 02:47:35 | u=1225
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
neotrekkerz
LOL, I just looked at how the posts played out. I was responding to Feiane's post, but it looks like I was debating with tsrräfkxätu.
Probably should read the new posts when I get the "someone else posted while you were writing" message before submitting my own. :)
msg=160551 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 17:50:27 | u=1318
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
HTML_Earth
I made a picture with all of the words on it, for simple learning! :D
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=item;id=409]http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=item;id=409[/url]
msg=160631 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:26:27 | u=631
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]That is SOOOO great! ;D
Be careful though: tsuksìm is chin, not cheek ... and I'm not sure whether it would be better for grammatical correctness to put the bodyparts which are in the dual/plural in their respective forms, i.e. memikyun, (ay)sanhì, menari - just a suggestion ;)
msg=160645 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:41:52 | u=1318
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
HTML_Earth
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7265.msg160631#msg160631 date=1269714387]
[font=Garamond]Be careful though: tsuksìm is chin, not cheek[/quote]
Thanks, fixed it.
Edit: and I won't pluralize them, because that would confuse people.
msg=160683 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 19:01:03 | u=631
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Plumps83
[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=7265.msg160645#msg160645 date=1269715312]
Edit: and I won't pluralize them, because that would confuse people.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
No problem ;) You're right - I thought of that as well ... Leave it at that, it's good! :)
msg=160695 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 19:09:29 | u=1120
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
roger
[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=7265.msg160645#msg160645 date=1269715312]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7265.msg160631#msg160631 date=1269714387]
[font=Garamond]Be careful though: tsuksìm is chin, not cheek[/quote]
Thanks, fixed it.
Edit: and I won't pluralize them, because that would confuse people.
[/quote]
If you're not going to pluralize, I would suggest pointing to only one of each. It would be equally confusing to point to a bunch of freckles and label them "a freckle".
msg=160827 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 20:57:13 | u=0
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Swoka Swizaw
Nice reference picture. This is one to add...
msg=161194 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 04:30:06 | u=2244
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
kayateia
I'm still waiting on a word for 'hand' so that I can say "talk to the hand!" :D for people who say the wrong thing about Avatar!
Edit: waitasec .. is "tsyokx" official or speculative, for hands?
msg=161202 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 05:05:40 | u=73
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Prrton
[quote author=Kaiatéya link=topic=7265.msg161194#msg161194 date=1269750606]
I'm still waiting on a word for 'hand' so that I can say "talk to the hand!" :D for people who say the wrong thing about Avatar!
Edit: waitasec .. is "tsyokx" official or speculative, for hands?
[/quote]
Official.
Technically "hands" would most commonly be for a human or Na'vi, «mesyokx», 2 hands. ;)
Tsyokxur peng?! :-\\
msg=162043 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 18:11:10 | u=4375
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Binkatong
This just made my day. :D I was so disappointed that I couldn't find a word for tooth or mouth this morning, and now I have both. Yay!
msg=162088 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 18:24:16 | u=0
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162043#msg162043 date=1269799870]
This just made my day. :D I was so disappointed that I couldn't find a word for tooth or mouth this morning, and now I have both. Yay!
[/quote]
Isn't it amazing what we wake up thinking about? But I know what you mean. As you might have read above, I asked why Frommer hadn't appeared to create a word for "hand" the night before it was revealed.
Enjoy your new discovery.
msg=162115 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 18:35:14 | u=4375
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Binkatong
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7265.msg162088#msg162088 date=1269800656]
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162043#msg162043 date=1269799870]
This just made my day. :D I was so disappointed that I couldn't find a word for tooth or mouth this morning, and now I have both. Yay!
[/quote]
Isn't it amazing what we wake up thinking about? But I know what you mean. As you might have read above, I asked why Frommer hadn't appeared to create a word for "hand" the night before it was revealed.
Enjoy your new discovery.
[/quote]
I blame the Law of Attraction. Irayo, Universe! ;D And I just found the word for jump too! Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3
msg=162372 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 19:41:16 | u=0
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162115#msg162115 date=1269801314]
And I just found the word for jump too! Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3
[/quote]
Lrrtok seri. :D
msg=162670 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 21:45:53 | u=54
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Tiger
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162115#msg162115 date=1269801314]
I blame the Law of Attraction. Irayo, Universe! ;D And I just found the word for jump too! Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3
[/quote]Worst was back when we got the word for "sleep", I had JUST told someone we don't have a word for sleep.
Spivä ftu 'awkx.
msg=162713 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:32:29 | u=2244
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
kayateia
This brings up a really good question: is there some central place that all of these words and grammar updates are getting filed into as they come in? One problem I had in the past is that the information is so fragmented everywhere that it's hard to tell what's right, what's canonical, where to see if a word exists,...
msg=162719 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:36:49 | u=1120
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
roger
I'm updating Wikibooks as they come in, and Taronyu's updating the his dict. here.
msg=162737 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:47:00 | u=631
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]The German subform also tries to keep the [url=http://dict-navi.com/]dict-navi[/url] as up to date as can be. It's still in its infancy but we do the best we can
msg=162912 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 00:36:27 | u=3552
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
tigermind
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162115#msg162115 date=1269801314]
...Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3
[/quote]
While you wait, you could tell them to "go take a long walk off a short tree branch". At least, i think we have the words for all of that...
msg=162922 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 00:50:35 | u=984
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
okrìsti
[quote author=Kaiatéya link=topic=7265.msg162713#msg162713 date=1269815549]
This brings up a really good question: is there some central place that all of these words and grammar updates are getting filed into as they come in? One problem I had in the past is that the information is so fragmented everywhere that it's hard to tell what's right, what's canonical, where to see if a word exists,...[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]Hi, I am trying to do exactly this on [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/User:Ochristi/Construction/Update_Log/2010-03]my wiki user sub-pages[/url].
This place is still in development, so there may be plenty of mainly earlier updates missing, also I am not finished with the format and appearance and since it is just compiled by myself, there may be some errors due to that.
As you can see it has a different approach then [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]the Canon[/url] on the wiki.
msg=162961 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 02:29:08 | u=1225
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
neotrekkerz
[quote author=tigermind link=topic=7265.msg162912#msg162912 date=1269822987]
[quote author=nìTsìng Lekinama Tswonyu link=topic=7265.msg162115#msg162115 date=1269801314]
...Now I need is the preposition "off", and I can go tell skxawngs to jump off a cliff. X3
[/quote]
While you wait, you could tell them to "go take a long walk off a short tree branch". At least, i think we have the words for all of that...
[/quote]
You could use ta until then.
msg=162964 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 02:44:45 | u=54
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Tiger
I think ftu would be more appropriate than ta, which is why I used it in my reply of "Spivä ftu 'awkx."
msg=162970 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 02:56:22 | u=2244
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
kayateia
[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg162719#msg162719 date=1269815809]
I'm updating Wikibooks as they come in, and Taronyu's updating the his dict. here.
[/quote]
Ah ha! I've been using Taronyu's dictionaries for the most part anyway (they seem to have the most words) so I will just start updating those regularly. I wasn't sure how often they're updated.
Irayo!
msg=163083 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 05:21:42 | u=1225
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
neotrekkerz
Ftu is a better choice. I always seem to forget about it.
msg=163110 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 05:52:12 | u=54
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Tiger
I'd done the same time, I started to use ta, but then realized that wasn't right and went back with ftu.
msg=163290 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 07:43:13 | u=631
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Plumps83
[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=7265.msg162922#msg162922 date=1269823835]
[font=Book Antiqua]Hi, I am trying to do exactly this on [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/User:Ochristi/Construction/Update_Log/2010-03]my wiki user sub-pages[/url].
This place is still in development, so there may be plenty of mainly earlier updates missing, also I am not finished with the format and appearance and since it is just compiled by myself, there may be some errors due to that.
As you can see it has a different approach then [url=http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon]the Canon[/url] on the wiki.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]I think this is particularly useful for those who had to shortly stop with learning and come back to it at a later time. Instead of clicking through all the update pages at the forum (or going through the dictionaries to sought out all unknown vocab), this gives a nice, succinct overview over new vocabulary - and it's good for cross-referencing. It's useful for learners not only having to rely on only one source.
Good job with that, ma okrìsti
msg=163759 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:19:45 | u=132
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Taronyu
[quote author=Kaiatéya link=topic=7265.msg162970#msg162970 date=1269831382]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg162719#msg162719 date=1269815809]
I'm updating Wikibooks as they come in, and Taronyu's updating the his dict. here.
[/quote]
Ah ha! I've been using Taronyu's dictionaries for the most part anyway (they seem to have the most words) so I will just start updating those regularly. I wasn't sure how often they're updated.
Irayo!
[/quote]
They update all of the time. Check the official thread for details of updating, or the change log at the bottom of the link.
msg=163903 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:05:42 | u=0
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Swoka Swizaw
[url=http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae41/Incorruptus1123/NaviAnatomy.jpg]http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae41/Incorruptus1123/NaviAnatomy.jpg[/url]
Something I made...use it if you all would like. I know that "reypay" is blood, but to add it, I wrote it on/in the wrist. Clever, no?
No...?
OK.
EDIT: I created another one, with bigger words and utilized the dual affix on words that require it.
msg=164011 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:36:26 | u=132
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Taronyu
Looks good.
Reypey looks like wrist, though...
msg=164081 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:07:05 | u=0
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7265.msg164011#msg164011 date=1269876986]
Looks good.
Reypey looks like wrist, though...
[/quote]
You check the pulse (flow of blood) through the wrist, right? What more could I do for "blood?" Apparently, Neytiri is too flawless to have any open wounds.
msg=164099 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:16:29 | u=1120
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
roger
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7265.msg164081#msg164081 date=1269878825]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7265.msg164011#msg164011 date=1269876986]
Looks good.
Reypey looks like wrist, though...
[/quote]
You check the pulse (flow of blood) through the wrist, right? What more could I do for "blood?" Apparently, Neytiri is too flawless to have any open wounds.
[/quote]
When you make a cross section of her head to show her brain, you could have some blood then. Or maybe her heart? ;D
msg=164130 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:33:03 | u=0
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg164099#msg164099 date=1269879389]
[quote author=Swoka Swizaw link=topic=7265.msg164081#msg164081 date=1269878825]
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7265.msg164011#msg164011 date=1269876986]
Looks good.
Reypey looks like wrist, though...
[/quote]
You check the pulse (flow of blood) through the wrist, right? What more could I do for "blood?" Apparently, Neytiri is too flawless to have any open wounds.
[/quote]
When you make a cross section of her head to show her brain, you could have some blood then. Or maybe her heart? ;D
[/quote]
>.>; Oh, you're funny. Yes, there are some concepts for which one might need an ek srey. (Though, Eywa omum, not much.)
msg=164551 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 19:35:34 | u=73
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Prrton
[quote author=HTML_Earth link=topic=7265.msg160551#msg160551 date=1269712227]
I made a picture with all of the words on it, for simple learning! :D
[url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=item;id=409]http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=item;id=409[/url]
[/quote]
[quote=Paul Frommer via e-mail]...the re'o chart is wonderful--[desc=translation by Prrton -- it brought many smiles to my 2 lips. -- *it* and *my* are implied by the context.]aylrrtokit apxay ne meseyri zamolunge![/desc][/quote]
It seems important to call out the numbers of eyes, ears, lips, etc. when we talk about our body parts (or the Na'vi body parts) "generically" when first establishing the number (or if something else does not establish the number). Once established, then the singular forms can be used if that doesn't create some kind of ambiguity.
This chart is clearly a hit (at least with me and K. Pawl, but I know with others too), so in the future, you may want to help people learn their plurals better and become accustomed to THINKING this way at the same time by including the numbers of 'parts' when labeling them. You might want to do that in parentheses or using some other annotation. The most important thing is the base word/name for the body part, but referring to it *natively* is also a factor in fluency.
- menari
- meseyri
- memikyun
- sanhì (short (lenited) plural) of tanhì)...
In English we only call out the numbers (two lips) for special emphasis, but in Na'vi the numbers (up to a count of 3 of something) are built in to all plurals. And the number of eyes on a Na'vi is different than the number commonly found on the 'beasts'.
Make sense? It's just a suggestion to think about. ;D
Irayo nìmun!
msg=165173 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 03:18:52 | u=3048
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
Txepasiyu
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7265.msg163759#msg163759 date=1269872385]
[quote author=Kaiatéya link=topic=7265.msg162970#msg162970 date=1269831382]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7265.msg162719#msg162719 date=1269815809]
I'm updating Wikibooks as they come in, and Taronyu's updating the his dict. here.
[/quote]
Ah ha! I've been using Taronyu's dictionaries for the most part anyway (they seem to have the most words) so I will just start updating those regularly. I wasn't sure how often they're updated.
Irayo!
[/quote]
They update all of the time. Check the official thread for details of updating, or the change log at the bottom of the link.
[/quote]
I am striving to keep the dictionary download links on the main LN site updated daily.
msg=166421 | topic=7265 | board=99 | time=2010-03-30 16:24:34 | u=2244
Re: new vocab: face, head, neck & tanhì! :)
kayateia
Irayo aletxan, ma aynga! :D I got the new PDFs from the main site and I'll watch there for updates.
msg=158454 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 14:59:24 | u=2104
Body-related words
Mirri
So it's my turn to reveal new body-related words, and instead of just posting stuff, I wanted to do something special with the words given to me.
I've written [desc=Special thanks to roger for proofing!]three poems[/desc], which will be revealed over the next couple days, using the new words :)
First one is a short haiku:
[desc=Understand the spirits]Kame sireat[/desc]
[desc=that have gone before.]a srekrr kamä. Ta'leng [/desc]
[desc=Skin of the ancestors you are]fizayuyä nga[/desc]
Second is a poem:
[desc=people from the sky]Aysuteri ta taw[/desc]
[desc=they master metal]Fol ereyk fngapit[/desc]
[desc=but they fear the forest]Slä fo txopu si na'rìngur[/desc]
[desc=their hands tremble]Feyä mesyokx 'itrikx[/desc]
[desc=their spirits are lost]Fo täpatep nìtirea[/desc]
[desc=they bring fire]Ulte munge txepit[/desc]
[desc=to burn the skin of our trees.]Fte nivekx ayoengeyä ta'lengit ayutralä.[/desc]
[desc=One cannot understand]Fkori ke tsun tslivam[/desc]
[desc=the pain he causes]Tìsrawti a po sleyku[/desc]
[desc=if his roots do not grip the earth]Txo peyä ayngrr ke niä kifkeyit[/desc]
[desc=and his mind is in the sky]Ulte peyä ronsem lu kip taw[/desc]
| Na’vi | | English |
|
| ta'leng | | skin |
| tsyokx | | hand |
More to come tomorrow!
msg=158468 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 15:15:30 | u=0
Re: Body-related words
Swoka Swizaw
I "complain" in the last body parts post (about the lack of the word "hand"), and someone delivers it the next day. Brilliant.
These words - and your poems - I like.
EDIT: I re-read your poems, and they are fantastic!!
msg=158480 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 15:29:39 | u=1975
Re: Body-related words
Ean Tirea
wow Mirri, your work is brilliant!! lor leiu nìtxan nang! txantsana tìkangkem. oel faylì'ut tsive'a a fì'u prrte' leiu oer.
msg=158568 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 16:28:18 | u=21
Re: Body-related words
wm.annis
Please include the accenting for ta'leng (or I could, but I don't like editing other people's posts). Irayo!
msg=158604 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 16:55:23 | u=3552
Re: Body-related words
tigermind
Is this word 'itrikx also new, ma smuk?
msg=158609 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 16:59:08 | u=1975
Re: Body-related words
Ean Tirea
my guess is no. possibly derived from existing vocab in the following way:
[desc=small]'it[/desc]+[desc=move]rikx[/desc]=[desc=smallmove--tremble]'itrikx[/desc]
msg=158611 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 16:59:49 | u=2104
Re: Body-related words
Mirri
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7293.msg158568#msg158568 date=1269620898]
Please include the accenting for ta'leng (or I could, but I don't like editing other people's posts). Irayo!
[/quote]
If you can, then please do so. There is no accenting on any of the words that I have received.
Fixed.
msg=158637 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 17:08:16 | u=2104
Re: Body-related words
Mirri
[quote author=Tirea Aean link=topic=7293.msg158609#msg158609 date=1269622748]
my guess is no. possibly derived from existing vocab in the following way:
[desc=small]'it[/desc]+[desc=move]rikx[/desc]=[desc=smallmove--tremble]'itrikx[/desc]
[/quote]
Nga eyawr lu.
We also need a word for poetry. lì'utseo ?
msg=158670 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 17:25:37 | u=1975
Re: Body-related words
Ean Tirea
yes. I can definitely live with [desc=word-art-->poetry]lì'utseo[/desc]. makes sense to me. we have [desc=sound-art-->music]pamtseo[/desc], [desc=image/picture-art-->painting/art]reltseo[/desc], and the such.
msg=158878 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 18:18:31 | u=4708
Re: Body-related words
Mìhìl
Wow, I really like it!
msg=159053 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 19:42:47 | u=985
Re: Body-related words
Nyx
Great poems, Mirri, and that's a sweet idea! Looking forward to more of that ^^
msg=159653 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-26 23:54:48 | u=73
Re: Body-related words
Prrton
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7293.msg158454#msg158454 date=1269615564]
So it's my turn to reveal new body-related words, and instead of just posting stuff, I wanted to do something special with the words given to me.
I've written [desc=Special thanks to roger for proofing!]three poems[/desc]...
[/quote]
Tewti! ma Mirri
Faylì'utseo ngeyä nìngay lor lu nìtxan!
Memikyunmì srereiew!
Irayo!
msg=159729 | topic=7293 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 04:24:05 | u=1225
Re: Body-related words
neotrekkerz
Just posting to keep current with the thread. Love the poems too.
msg=160195 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 12:31:55 | u=2104
Body-related poetry, part 2
Mirri
Day Two of new [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/body-related-words/]body-related words.[/url]
As mentioned, I wanted to do something fun with the words given to me, so I wrote some [desc=poetry]lì'utseo.[/desc]
Enjoy! :)
[desc=There was once a Na`vi who prefered not to hunt]Krro lamu tuteo a nulnew ke tivaron[/desc]
[desc=The others said he was not brave]Aylapo perlltxe san po lu ke tstew sìk[/desc]
[desc=His aim was bad, his arrows did not strike]Peyä tìkan ke sìltsan lu, ke terakuk ayswizaw[/desc]
[desc=When he hunted, it was well-known he returned without a kill.]Krr a taron, lu nìawnomum tsnì tayätxaw luke tìtspang[/desc]
[desc=But when the fire burned at night and drums were heard]Slä tsakrr a txep nerekx nìtxon ulte fko ayauti tserawm[/desc]
[desc=His toes moved, he could not remain still]Peyä ayvenzek tolikx, po ke tsolun fnivu[/desc]
[desc=And everyone stopped laughing when he danced]Frapol fpolak tìheranghamit krr a po srerew[/desc]
[desc=His feet were flying to the music]Peyä ayvenu tswayon hu pamtseo[/desc]
[desc=The beat was in his heart]'Ekongìl fpxäkìm txe'lanit[/desc]
[desc=The music in his blood]Pamtseol tok reypayit[/desc]
[desc=His stomach was filled with laughter]Ngäng teya säpi fa tìhangham[/desc]
[desc=His lungs with beautiful song]Mesopì fa tìrol alor[/desc]
[desc=I could watch him dance forever and a day]Nìngay, oel nivìn pot tengkrr a srerew frakrr sì 'awa trr[/desc]
| Na’vi | | English |
|
| ngäng | | stomach |
| reypay | | blood |
| tsopì | | lung |
| venu | | foot |
| venzek | | toe |
msg=160218 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 12:58:49 | u=132
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
Taronyu
Interesting. Especially venzek, obviously from venu+zekwä, and reypay, life-water.
msg=160236 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 13:12:50 | u=631
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Great...
txantsan
And truly: beautiful poetry
ulte nìngay: lì'utseo alor!
Question is what do we make with "Whiskey" then? :P which comes from uisce beathe => "water of life" ;D
msg=160270 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 13:44:53 | u=132
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
Taronyu
I'm pretty sure that, in Scotland at least, if your blood doesn't have as high an alcohol content as whiskey, there's something seriously wrong.
msg=160277 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 13:50:23 | u=984
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
okrìsti
[font=Book Antiqua]These are nice poems and nice words. :)
(The first line of transcription is somehow broken.)
msg=160288 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 13:59:08 | u=2104
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
Mirri
[quote author=okrìsti link=topic=7334.msg160277#msg160277 date=1269697823]
[font=Book Antiqua]These are nice poems and nice words. :)
(The first line of transcription is somehow broken.)
[/quote]
Hmm, apparently it breaks if you have a ' in the desc part :P
msg=160338 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 15:00:09 | u=984
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
okrìsti
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7334.msg160288#msg160288 date=1269698348]Hmm, apparently it breaks if you have a ' in the desc part :P[/quote]
[font=Book Antiqua]Could use ’, like [desc=There was once a Na’vi who prefered not to hunt]Krro lamu tuteo a nulnew ke tivaron[/desc]
[desc=Na'vi]hm here it works[/desc]
msg=160467 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 17:07:03 | u=1620
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
dontbugme
ma Mirri, irayo
Nga nìlaw omum futa fko sar lì'ut a san tsopì sìk na lì'fyafa [desc=fu leìnglìsì fu alìnglìsi fu aìnglìsì]lìnglìsì[/desc]? [desc=German]Toitse[/desc]fa fko pivlltxe san Tsopì fa tìrol alor sìk tup san Mesopì. Ke fpìl oe futa tuteyä lena'vi txokxìri ke omum ayoeng nìtam fte tsun awnga law livu teri tìsar fìlì'uyä slä [desc=fya'o a tsawteri fpìl na'vi ]na'viyä tìkusameri[/desc] nì'ul tsunslu tìsar le[desc="singular"]holpxay a'aw[/desc]
Are you shure that you use the word "tsopì" like in english. In German you would say "Tsopì fa tìrol alor" instead of "Mesopì". I don't think that we know enough about the Na'vi body to be able to be shure about the usage of this word but from the point of view of the Na'vi it would be more likely to use it in singular.
tsalì'utseori ngeyä ke nì'aw lu lor [desc=ke omum oel futa tsun sivar san slä sìk fuke fu kea lì'u(t)]()[/desc] lu lesar nìtxan fpi tìnume
this poetry is not only beautiful but also usefull for learning
msg=160496 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 17:25:28 | u=2104
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
Mirri
[quote author='eylan na'viyä link=topic=7334.msg160467#msg160467 date=1269709623]
ma Mirri, irayo
Nga nìlaw omum futa fko sar lì'ut a san tsopì sìk na lì'fyafa [desc=fu leìnglìsì fu alìnglìsi fu aìnglìsì]lìnglìsì[/desc]? [desc=German]Toitse[/desc]fa fko pivlltxe san Tsopì fa tìrol alor sìk tup san Mesopì. Ke fpìl oe futa tuteyä lena'vi txokxìri ke omum ayoeng nìtam fte tsun awnga law livu teri tìsar fìlì'uyä slä [desc=fya'o a tsawteri fpìl na'vi ]na'viyä tìkusameri[/desc] nì'ul tsunslu tìsar le[desc="singular"]holpxay a'aw[/desc]
Are you shure that you use the word "tsopì" like in english. In German you would say "Tsopì fa tìrol alor" instead of "Mesopì". I don't think that we know enough about the Na'vi body to be able to be shure about the usage of this word but from the point of view of the Na'vi it would be more likely to use it in singular.
tsalì'utseori ngeyä ke nì'aw lu lor [desc=ke omum oel futa tsun sivar san slä sìk fuke fu kea lì'u(t)]()[/desc] lu lesar nìtxan fpi tìnume
this poetry is not only beautiful but also usefull for learning
[/quote]
Talun tokxur lu mune san tsopì sìk tafral fìlì'u san dual-plural sìk. Mesopì.
Because the body has two "lung", the word is dual-plural. "Lungs"
msg=160582 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:03:15 | u=1225
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
neotrekkerz
Cool poem. Na'vi Happy Feet!
msg=160624 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:22:09 | u=2104
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
Mirri
[quote author=NeotrekkerZ link=topic=7334.msg160582#msg160582 date=1269712995]
Cool poem. Na'vi Happy Feet!
[/quote]
Mevenu lefpom :D
msg=160626 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:24:09 | u=21
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
wm.annis
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7334.msg160624#msg160624 date=1269714129]Mevenu lefpom[/quote]
Mevenu anitram, I think. ;)
msg=160635 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:34:50 | u=2104
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
Mirri
[quote author=wm.annis link=topic=7334.msg160626#msg160626 date=1269714249]
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7334.msg160624#msg160624 date=1269714129]Mevenu lefpom[/quote]
Mevenu anitram, I think. ;)
[/quote]
That was my first thought, but feet aren't people.
msg=160678 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 18:58:50 | u=21
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
wm.annis
[quote author=Mirri link=topic=7334.msg160635#msg160635 date=1269714890]That was my first thought, but feet aren't people.[/quote]
They aren't, but the phrase sure seems like a metonymy, or a personification, that would call for nitram.
msg=160690 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-27 19:06:45 | u=1120
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
roger
I imagine that things which actually are themselves happy, which laugh and dance, are nitram, and things which are enjoyable because they're peaceful are lefpom. Feet aren't either, so it's metaphor, and yeah, nitram would be the right word--for humans, that is. We can't know if either would make sense to the Na'vi. Probably not.
msg=161149 | topic=7334 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 01:11:31 | u=73
Re: Body-related poetry, part 2
Prrton
Tsngolawvìk nì'it oe, ma Mirri.
Txantsan nìngay! Vay set fìlì'utseo ngeyä lu fwa oel nulnew frato.
Fkoru lora 'u feyä! Fìfyafa kifkey nì'ul yawne slu!
Irayo seiyi oe ngaru.
msg=161645 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 15:01:39 | u=2788
Landscape words
Lance R. Casey
Lu oeru kop mipa aylì'uo ulte oeri ye'rìn sngayä'i txana tìsop aweykta, set lonu sat oel. Ayngaru nìwotx pìyeng fìfya:
Tawtute tarmìng nari atxkxer. Pori ukxoa txayot tok slä sim hì'ia 'ora. Tsa'ora lu tsim payfyayä ulte mawkrr a yemfpay säpoli wewa paymì, ìlä fayfya salew po. Tsal oleyk pot ne Swotulu ulte tsatseng tsun po tsive'a txampayit alìm. Ìlä Swotulu salew vay ekxan a wìntxu pxawpat tsrayä leNa'vi. Tsrayä sute lu peyä eylan alunta, tolung fkol futa ftem po. Poru fol zamolunge fkxenot sì payoti ta ramunong tsrayä fte livu poru tìtxur nìmun. Tawtute lu nitram ulte mì ronsem peyä lu fìsäfpìl: san Eywa'eveng lu nìngay lefpoma kifkey alor nìtxan!
[spoiler]A human was looking over the land. He was on a dry field but a small lake was close by. That lake was the source of a stream and after immersing himself in the cold water, he proceeded along the stream. It led him to the Sacred River and there he could see the ocean in the distance. He proceeded along the Sacred River up to a barricade which showed the border of a Na'vi village. Since the people of the village were his friends, he was allowed to pass. They brought him some fruit and water from the village's well so that he would regain his strength. The human was happy and in his mind was this thought: Pandora is truly a very peaceful and beautiful world![/spoiler]
So, first there are a couple of previously known words which are now explicitly confirmed:
ramunong well (as in Ayvitrayä Ramunong Well of Souls)
Swotulu Sacred River (given as just n., but is obviously a name)
Then there are some derived words the constituents of which are apparent:
payfya stream (pay-fya'o)
pxawpa perimeter, circumference, border (pxaw-pa'o)
txampay sea, ocean (txan-pay)
The rest are, I believe, new roots:
'ora lake
ekxan barricade, obstruction
tsim source
tsray village
txayo field, open terrain (note syllabication)
ukxo dry
wew cold
(All but the last two are nouns.)
msg=161755 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 16:22:09 | u=984
Re: Landscape words
okrìsti
Awesome, thanks for sharing. :)
msg=161801 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 16:52:03 | u=631
Re: Landscape words
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]A huge WHOOOOT ;D
Finally a word for "cold" :)
And there I was thinking this morning about txampay possibly being "ocean" or "sea" which was given in the diphthong thread. Very nice.
Irayo
msg=161805 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 16:55:58 | u=73
Re: Landscape words
Prrton
[quote author=Lance R. Casey link=topic=7386.msg161645#msg161645 date=1269788499]
Lu oeru kop mipa aylì'uo ulte oeri ye'rìn sngayä'i txana tìsop aweykta, set lonu sat oel...
[/quote]
Txantsan, ma LänsArKeysi!
[desc=However, perhaps a few folks still have a question regarding the source of these beautiful words.]Ngian kxawm mi hola suteru latsu tìpawm teri tsim faylì'uyä alor[/desc]... [desc=Who is the true creator?]Pesu lu ngopyu angay?[/desc] [desc=What is the original source?]Peu lu tsatsim a'awve?[/desc] ;D
msg=162203 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 19:00:58 | u=0
Re: Landscape words
Swoka Swizaw
Great words. Frommer's genius is wonderful to encounter.
[quote author=Prrton link=topic=7386.msg161805#msg161805 date=1269795358]
[desc=However, perhaps a few folks still have a question regarding the source of these beautiful words.]Ngian kxawm mi hola suteru latsu tìpawm teri tsim faylì'uyä alor[/desc]... [desc=Who is the true creator?]Pesu lu ngopyu angay?[/desc] [desc=What is the original source?]Peu lu tsatsim a'awve?[/desc] ;D
[/quote]
I have a feeling that if someone made ANYthing up, here...for that person, it would be like a fate worse than if they had just lost their queue.
msg=162660 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 21:38:40 | u=1120
Re: Landscape words
roger
Oe 'efu wew "I'm cold"
For "the wind is cold", I wonder if it would be hufwe oeru 'eykefu wew ?
msg=162686 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:03:58 | u=1550
Re: Landscape words
Taras
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg162660#msg162660 date=1269812320]
Oe 'efu wew "I'm cold"
For "the wind is cold", I wonder if it would be hufwe oeru 'eykefu wew ?
[/quote]
Oel fpìl futa nìeyawr lu san hufwe lu wew sìk, talun Lance R. Casey poltxe san All but the last two are nouns sìk ;)
I think that correct is "hufwe lu wew", because Lance R. Casey said "All but the last two are nouns" ;)
msg=162699 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:19:44 | u=1120
Re: Landscape words
roger
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7386.msg162686#msg162686 date=1269813838]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg162660#msg162660 date=1269812320]
Oe 'efu wew "I'm cold"
For "the wind is cold", I wonder if it would be hufwe oeru 'eykefu wew ?
[/quote]
Oel fpìl futa nìeyawr lu san hufwe lu wew sìk, talun Lance R. Casey poltxe san All but the last two are nouns sìk ;)
I think that correct is "hufwe lu wew", because Lance R. Casey said "All but the last two are nouns" ;)
[/quote]
Yes, it's an adjective. But that doesn't tell us how to differentiate feeling from temperature.
BTW, WB dict. updated.
msg=162715 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:33:47 | u=1550
Re: Landscape words
Taras
Oe 'efu tìwew - kxawm fìfya :) Fu nìeyawr livu san Oel 'efu tìwewit sìk srak?
Oe 'efu tìwew - maybe this way :) Or correct is Oel 'efu tìwewit?
msg=162725 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:39:15 | u=1120
Re: Landscape words
roger
Frommer's said that with "I'm happy", "I'm cold", etc., it's oe 'efu ADJ. The question for me is, how do you say "the wind's cold"? Perhaps just "hufwe lu wew", but the coldness of the wind isn't so much the wind itself (the way ice is cold), but in how it makes one feel cold.
msg=162730 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 22:43:48 | u=631
Re: Landscape words
Plumps83
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg162699#msg162699 date=1269814784]
Yes, it's an adjective. But that doesn't tell us how to differentiate feeling from temperature.
BTW, WB dict. updated.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]That's an interesting concept, roger, but I doubt the Na'vi would make such a distinction... It's all about subjective utterances, isn't it. Even when we say "the wind is cold" we say that from our personal interpretation of what is warm and cold... But we can make that distinction. "for me the wind is cold", "the wind seems cold", "the wind makes me cold" - so, I guess it's all semantics and gives another nuance to the language if we can say hufwe lu wew or oeru hufwe lu wew or oeru hufwe 'eykefu wew
Concerning the last one - what would happen with oeru hufwe 'eykefu nìwew - would that be cold in the emotional sence?
msg=162770 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 23:16:29 | u=1120
Re: Landscape words
roger
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7386.msg162730#msg162730 date=1269816228]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg162699#msg162699 date=1269814784]
Yes, it's an adjective. But that doesn't tell us how to differentiate feeling from temperature.
BTW, WB dict. updated.[/quote]
[font=Garamond]That's an interesting concept, roger, but I doubt the Na'vi would make such a distinction... It's all about subjective utterances, isn't it. Even when we say "the wind is cold" we say that from our personal interpretation of what is warm and cold... But we can make that distinction. "for me the wind is cold", "the wind seems cold", "the wind makes me cold" - so, I guess it's all semantics and gives another nuance to the language if we can say hufwe lu wew or oeru hufwe lu wew or oeru hufwe 'eykefu wew
Concerning the last one - what would happen with oeru hufwe 'eykefu nìwew - would that be cold in the emotional sence?
[/quote]
A lot of languages make this distinction. Some have different words for hot in "it's hot out today" and "the soup is hot". English is rather odd in not doing this. Frommer's said that for internal states, you use "feel" w an adj. That isn't going to work with saying "the soup is hot", so presumably there's a different construction for that. (Presumably not different adjectives, or F would've made some indication in his gloss.) As for "the wind made me feel coldly", yeah, as an English speaker I'd understand that to mean emotionally, but we don't know if Na'vi has that metaphor.
msg=162815 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 23:35:19 | u=1673
Re: Landscape words
Toruk Taronyu
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7386.msg162730#msg162730 date=1269816228]
Concerning the last one - what would happen with oeru hufwe 'eykefu nìwew - would that be cold in the emotional sence?
[/quote]
I have to agree w/roger. Cold in the emotional sense is most likely something that the Na'vi would never have come up with outside of interaction with humans. For example, if people lived on a very hot world, where cold was extremely desirable, "cold" emotionally might mean happy and outgoing!
msg=162831 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-28 23:46:55 | u=1120
Re: Landscape words
roger
[quote author=Toruk Taronyu link=topic=7386.msg162815#msg162815 date=1269819319]
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7386.msg162730#msg162730 date=1269816228]
Concerning the last one - what would happen with oeru hufwe 'eykefu nìwew - would that be cold in the emotional sence?
[/quote]
I have to agree w/roger. Cold in the emotional sense is most likely something that the Na'vi would never have come up with outside of interaction with humans. For example, if people lived on a very hot world, where cold was extremely desirable, "cold" emotionally might mean happy and outgoing!
[/quote]
Or who knows, there could be a distinction between cold=refreshing and cold=shivering. But that could be conveyed by 'eykefeiu, 'eykefägu.
msg=162938 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 01:31:33 | u=1643
Re: Landscape words
Rain
Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?
msg=163150 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 06:16:31 | u=1120
Re: Landscape words
roger
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg162938#msg162938 date=1269826293]
Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?
[/quote]
Of course they will, and probably quite soon. But since it's not a wiki, there's a little turnaround time.
msg=163319 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 08:28:38 | u=54
Re: Landscape words
Tiger
I've actually been trying to keep on top of adding things to my google docs spreadsheet as new words come out, but that's not so much with a goal of being a dictionary, but more a goal of being a reference to pronunciation.
msg=163624 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 12:51:45 | u=1643
Re: Landscape words
Rain
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg163150#msg163150 date=1269843391]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg162938#msg162938 date=1269826293]
Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?
[/quote]
Of course they will, and probably quite soon. But since it's not a wiki, there's a little turnaround time.
[/quote]
Fi'u lu siltsana fmawn ;D
msg=163770 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:24:13 | u=132
Re: Landscape words
Taronyu
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg163624#msg163624 date=1269867105]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg163150#msg163150 date=1269843391]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg162938#msg162938 date=1269826293]
Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?
[/quote]
Of course they will, and probably quite soon. But since it's not a wiki, there's a little turnaround time.
[/quote]
Fi'u lu siltsana fmawn ;D
[/quote]
Irayo, ma eylan. I updated them a while ago. I'll start posting in these threads when I do, but one can always check the changelog, PM me, or check the dictionary thread. Thanks.
msg=163856 | topic=7386 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:51:54 | u=1643
Re: Landscape words
Rain
[quote author=Taronyu link=topic=7386.msg163770#msg163770 date=1269872653]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg163624#msg163624 date=1269867105]
[quote author=roger link=topic=7386.msg163150#msg163150 date=1269843391]
[quote author=Rain link=topic=7386.msg162938#msg162938 date=1269826293]
Are these going to be on the updated dictionary by Taronyu?
[/quote]
Of course they will, and probably quite soon. But since it's not a wiki, there's a little turnaround time.
[/quote]
Fi'u lu siltsana fmawn ;D
[/quote]
Irayo, ma eylan. I updated them a while ago. I'll start posting in these threads when I do, but one can always check the changelog, PM me, or check the dictionary thread. Thanks.
[/quote]
I check it faithfully every week ;D
msg=163181 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 06:39:37 | u=1120
<asy> with ke and nga
roger
On one of the posts, s.o. asked what it would mean to use the intentional future with "you": you intend to go, or I intend you to go? Turns out it's the latter. And they also asked about the scope of the negative.
[quote author=Frommer]With the negative added, it's a matter of scope: Is it (a) INTEND [NEG V] or (b) NEG [INTEND V]?
So far I've used the det. fut. only as (a). Examples from the video-game dialog:
Tafral ke lìsyek oel geyä keye'ugit.
'Therefore I will not heed your insanity.'
Ayoe ke wasyem.
'We will not fight.'
Ke zasyup lì'Ona ne kxutu a mìfa fu a wrrpa.
'The l'Ona will not perish to the enemy within or the enemy without.'
[/quote]
[not decided whether (b) should be allowed]
[quote]
As for the second person examples, the det. fut. without anything else should indicate the intention of the speaker (since you can't get inside someone's head to assess their determination): Ga kasyä shd. be: I am determined that you will go. (Alternatively, it could be the case that the determinative is only used with the 1st person--but that would eliminate some useful sentences.)*
I like your idea of using the evidential with the determinative for the other reading. In the same way, when we use experiential expressions with other than the 1st person, we're implying a "seems" or "appears," right? So "I'm tired" is straightforward, but "You're tired" is odd unless it means "I perceive you as tired (although I can't be sure if that's true)" or "You seem/appear to be tired."
[/quote]
In other words, "You shall not pass!" (the question in the post) would be s.t. like ga ke ftasyem!
And if I'm reading this right, it would be ungrammatical (or at least intellectually dishonest) to say ga 'efu geyn for "you are tired"; one should say instead ga 'efacu geyn. Similarly, if he decides to go with this, the way to say "you're determined to go" would be ga kasyacä. (I would assume you could leave out the evidential in either if you're in caheylu!)
Capitalization suggests a new prefix in "lì'Ona", though that might simply be a unitary name.
*Is the "lì'Ona" example then actually in 1st person, with the speaker speaking for all, rather than expressing intention for a 3rd party?
msg=163301 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 08:00:34 | u=631
Re: <asy> with ke and nga
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]Thanks for sharing!
Although I'm all for the little nuances in a language ... right now I can only concentrate on two words that appear to be new...
ngeyn adj. = tired
kxutu n. = enemy
eyawr lu mefo srak?
Honestly, but maybe that's due to my non-native English background, I can't quite see the difference between the given examples.
Is it suggested then, that the lì'Ona example should add an additional ‹ats› in zup to indicate that the speaker is really just conjecturing?
msg=163308 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 08:12:18 | u=1120
Re: <asy> with ke and nga
roger
Oops, yeah, I shouldn't have used
ngeyn; I was just translating F's examples.
I would imagine that if you were to use <ats> in zup, you'd be saying that it appears that you intend, rather than just that you intend. Normally we're aware of our own intentions.
The idea is that I can say that I am tired, because I know how I feel. I can ask you if you are tired, because you know how you feel. But it makes no more sense for me to tell you that you are tired, than it does to ask you if I am tired. We have this in English: "You look tired. Why don't you lie down?" It would be rather odd to tell s.o. "You're tired. Go lie down." The "look" would be translated with <ats>. The question then would be if its grammatically or culturally acceptable to say "S/he's tired", or if we're required to say "S/he looks tired" with the <ats>. (Unless maybe it's our horse we're talking about, and we're in tsaheylu, so we know first-hand that s/he's tired.)
msg=163314 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 08:24:32 | u=631
Re: <asy> with ke and nga
Plumps83
[font=Garamond]You can still change it ;) Nobody else noticed :)
Alright, I get the ‹ats› and of course, it's logical.
Hmm, I don't understand what the
[quote][not decided whether the 2nd reading should be allowed][/quote]
[font=Garamond]means or what you are referring to...
Sorry, for being a skxawng with that ... maybe it's too early :P but of course, I want to comprehend these aspects of the language
msg=163756 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:18:43 | u=1921
Re: <asy> with ke and nga
pbhead
Is he dropping the n in "ng"? I guess thats ok, since the only time g appears is ng...
just kinda intresting.
msg=163767 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:21:44 | u=132
Re: <asy> with ke and nga
Taronyu
Updated lì'Ona, but didn't add the two words, because of your hesitance.
Thanks roj.
msg=163768 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:23:36 | u=1120
Re: <asy> with ke and nga
roger
[quote author=pbhead link=topic=7431.msg163756#msg163756 date=1269872323]
Is he dropping the n in "ng"? I guess thats ok, since the only time g appears is ng...
just kinda intresting.
[/quote]
He's always prefered to use 'g' for 'ng' and 'c' for 'ts' (one letter per sound apart from 'x'), but used the latter for the film script to make it more accessible to the actors. Some of us write to him in this system, and he responds in kind.
msg=163922 | topic=7431 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:10:10 | u=430
Re: <asy> with ke and nga
TehMightyPirate
Awesome, glad to have that answered.
msg=163831 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:43:36 | u=401
Some new words
Harìghawnu
I'm quite busy at the moment, so I can't write a lot here, but I want to let you know some new words coming from K. Pawl.
We saw fìtxon already in his translation of [url=http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/why-is-this-night/]Why is this night ... [/url]. Well there are also some related words:
| fìtxon | (Adv) | tonight |
| txonam | (Adv) | last night |
| txonay | (Adv) | tomorrow night |
| trray | (Adv) | tomorrow |
| sekrr | (N) | present |
Furthermore I'm happy to tell you about same words, which are for sure essential in the narrative culture of the Na'vi:
| vur | (N) | story |
| tìpängkxo | (N) | conversation, discussion |
| tìsrese'a | (N) | prophecy |
| nawmtu | (N) | great person |
| txantstew | (N) | hero |
| tstew | (Adj) | brave |
| fkew | (Adj) | mighty |
And last a special:
| nguway | (N) | howl, viperwolf cry |
msg=163847 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 14:48:23 | u=1975
Re: Some new words
Ean Tirea
Txantsana fmawn ma 'eylan oeyä! ngaru seiyi irayo.
msg=163885 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:00:44 | u=1620
Re: Some new words
dontbugme
interesting, that <txantstew\
msg=163920 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:10:03 | u=1975
Re: Some new words
Ean Tirea
yes, this is interesting, as i would have also expected hero to be something like txantstewtu. as for short of nìtxan tsewa tute. but either way, we should accept this word "txantstew" as it is and how it has been given to us by Paul to function. :)
msg=163925 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:10:58 | u=1550
Re: Some new words
Taras
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
txonam (Adv) last night
txonay (Adv) tomorrow night
[/quote]
Srake tsun fko tengfya pivlltxe san
zìsìtam - last year
zìsìtay - next year
sìk?
msg=163947 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:16:23 | u=1975
Re: Some new words
Ean Tirea
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7447.msg163925#msg163925 date=1269875458]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
txonam (Adv) last night
txonay (Adv) tomorrow night
[/quote]
Srake tsun fko tengfya pivlltxe san
zìsìtam - last year
zìsìtay - next year
sìk?
[/quote]
tsun fko tsaylì'u sivar a fì'u lam oeru.
msg=163956 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:17:41 | u=2
Re: Some new words
snowyfox
I thought mighty was fkeu. When did this change? I think I need to pay more attention around here, hard to keep up...
msg=163960 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:18:27 | u=0
Re: Some new words
Swoka Swizaw
[quote author=Kemaweyan link=topic=7447.msg163925#msg163925 date=1269875458]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
txonam (Adv) last night
txonay (Adv) tomorrow night
[/quote]
Srake tsun fko tengfya pivlltxe san
zìsìtam - last year
zìsìtay - next year
sìk?
[/quote]
Pelun ke...? :D
msg=163969 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:20:29 | u=430
Re: Some new words
TehMightyPirate
[quote author=Seze link=topic=7447.msg163956#msg163956 date=1269875861]
I thought mighty was fkeu. When did this change? I think I need to pay more attention around here, hard to keep up...
[/quote]
Yeah, I think that changed a while back, around the time neu turned into new.
msg=164002 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:30:34 | u=1120
Re: Some new words
roger
[quote author=Ftiafpi link=topic=7447.msg163969#msg163969 date=1269876029]
[quote author=Seze link=topic=7447.msg163956#msg163956 date=1269875861]
I thought mighty was fkeu. When did this change? I think I need to pay more attention around here, hard to keep up...
[/quote]
Yeah, I think that changed a while back, around the time neu turned into new.
[/quote]
SG material from an early draft of Frommer's.
msg=164004 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:31:27 | u=1120
Re: Some new words
roger
Note the shift in stress between srese'a and tìsrese'a.
msg=164046 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 15:51:21 | u=1975
Re: Some new words
Ean Tirea
[quote author=Seze link=topic=7447.msg163956#msg163956 date=1269875861]
I thought mighty was fkeu. When did this change? I think I need to pay more attention around here, hard to keep up...
[/quote]
yeah im pretty sure that all words ending in eu have been changed to end in ew. possibly even that eu has completely changed to ew.
[quote author=roger link=topic=7447.msg164004#msg164004 date=1269876687]
Note the shift in stress between srese'a and tìsrese'a.
[/quote]
that IS interesting, but somehow still makes sense to me. nice catch by the way.
msg=164164 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:44:29 | u=631
Re: Some new words
Plumps83
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
sekrr (N) present[/quote]
[font=Garamond]
Nice, thanks for sharing!
sekrr from set + krr ?
Interesting side note ... if nguway is a wiperwolf's cry and way is song/animal sound, what makes that of pongu? ;D
msg=164170 | topic=7447 | board=99 | time=2010-03-29 16:47:35 | u=1120
Re: Some new words
roger
[quote author=Plumps83 link=topic=7447.msg164164#msg164164 date=1269881069]
[quote author=Na'rìghawnu link=topic=7447.msg163831#msg163831 date=1269873816]
sekrr
(N) | present |